C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

2 8 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 3 9

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088
MOBILE: 066 513 1757
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

28 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 8 J U LY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r H u l l e y, g o o d m o r n i n g
e v e r y b o d y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r C h a i r w e h a d p re v i o u s h a d o n e m a t t e r
t h a t w a s s e t d o w n f o r t o d a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t w a s t h e m a t t e r o f B ri g a d i e r X a b a .

B ri g a d i e r X a b a u n f o rt u n a t e l y h a s c u r r e n t l y g o n e f o r t e st i n g
i n r e s p e ct o f C o v i d -1 9 .

H e h a s g o t co u n s e l p r e s e n t t o d a y

who

you

wish

to

address

on

an

application

for

the

p o st p o n e m e n t o f t o d a y s ’ p r o c e e d i n g s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e c o m m i s si o n d o e s n o t o p p o s e – t h e

e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s d o n o t o p p o s e t h e a p p l i ca t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. T h a n k y o u .
20

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Good morning.

Yo u c a n j u st st a r t o ff b y

p l a ci n g y o u r se l f o n r e c o rd .
ADV MANARA ME: Chairperson I am Manara ME.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MANARA ME:

I a m i n st r u ct e d b y M a ri n g a A t t o rn e y s.
Page 3 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E:

A n d w e b o t h t h e n a p p e a r f o r B ri g a d i e r

Nyameka Xaba.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MANARA ME:

Chairperson should have had – there is

a n a p p l i c a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d r e q u e st i n g t h a t t h e
m a t t e r b e p o st p o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E:
10

In order to allow some time for him to

g e t b e t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

I – I s a w c o rr e s p o n d e n c e b u t I h a v e

n o t s e e n t h e – t h e s u b st a n t i v e a p p l i c a t i o n .

If I could have

that
ADV MANARA ME:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n I a m j u st …

E v e n – I u n d e r st a n d t h e re i s a s u b st a n t i ve

a p p l i ca t i o n ?
ADV MANARA ME:

I n d e e d , t h e re i s C h a i r p e r so n a n d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV MANARA ME:
20

And you will be addressed in that

re g a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

Mr Chair the

s u b st a n t i v e a p p l i c a t i o n h a s o n l y j u st b e e n d e p o s e d .

Th e

a ff i d a vi t h a s o n l y j u st b e e n d e p o s e d t o a n d h a n d e d t o m e
and that is the copy I have handed up to you.
Page 4 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t h a s b e e n d e p o s e d t o a s I u n d e r st a n d i t
b y M r – B ri g a d i e r X a b a ’s a t t o r n e y b e ca u s e h e w a s n o t a b l e
t o g o a n d m a k e c o n t a ct w i t h h i m i n o r d e r t o t a k e t h e o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O r t o a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

That is fine.

Where is this person

who is supposed to sanitise before – let him sanitise before
you – you go there.
10

A D V M A N A R A M E: C h a i r p e r s o n i f I w e r e t o t h e n b r i e f l y t a k e
you through the application.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E: W h a t i s st a t e d t h e r e C h a i rp e r s o n i s t h a t
h e i s a w a r e t h a t h e w a s t o t e st i f y h e r e h o w e v e r o n S u n d a y
t h a t i s S u n d a y t h e 2 6 t h h e e x p e ri e n c e d so m e p a i n s w h i c h
w e re l a t e r c o n f i r m e d a s t o b e s y m p t o m s r e l a t e d t o C o vi d -1 9 .
H e a p p r o a c h e d a d o ct o r w h o t h e n c o n f i r m e d t h e s y m p t o m s t o
b e a s s u c h a n d t h e n di r e ct e d t h a t h e s h o u l d u n d e rg o t e st i n g
and in the meanwhile isolate himself.

20

There is also then an

i n d i c a t i o n o f a n o u t b r e a k i n t h e o ff i c e s w h e r e h e w o r k s a n d
t h e r e h a s b e e n a c o u p l e o f c a s e s c o n f i r m e d i n t h a t re g a r d .
A n d i t s e e m s t h e n t h a t t h e s u s p i ci o n i s t h a t h e m i g h t h a v e
c o n t r a ct e d i t f r o m t h a t s e t o f f a ct s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E:

A n d o n t h o s e b a si s C h a i r p e r s o n w e
Page 5 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
re q u e st a p o st p o n e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E:

A n d w e h a d d i s c u s s e d t h e p o s si b i l i t y o f

a m a t t e r st a n d i n g d o w n t o e n a b l e t h e r e s u l t s t o co m e o u t
w h i c h w e e st i m a t e t o b e b y n o l a t e r t h a n F r i d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M A N A R A M E:

And then after you should then be in a

p o si t i o n t o d e ci d e h o w t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r g o i n g f o r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

A D V M A N A R A M E : T h a n k y o u C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

No that is fine.

I t d o e s so u n d l i k e a

g e n u i n e c a s e a n d t h a t t h e r e i s a n e e d f o r h i m t o i so l a t e
h i m se l f o f c o u r s e . E v e n t h e b u i l d i n g w h e r e h e w o r k s , I t h i n k
t h e r e i s a n o t i c e t o cl o se i t d o w n .
A D V M A N A R A M E : T h a t i s i n d e e d t h e p o si t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Or something for the time being.
A D V M A N A R A M E : Ye s i t h a s b e e n cl o s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. N o t h a t i s f i n e . I t h i n k w h a t w e
– I w i l l p o st p o n e t h e h e a ri n g o f h i s e vi d e n c e t o a d a t e st i l l t o
20

b e d e t e r m i n e d a n d a s s o o n a s p o s si b l e l e t t h e c o m m i s si o n
k n o w w h a t h i s p o si t i o n i s s o t h a t a d a t e c a n t h e n b e
arranged. Or it may be that we will arrange the date anyway
a n d i f – I m e a n i t w i l l n o t b e t o o cl o s e s o i t w i l l a l l o w h i m
e n o u g h t i m e t o r e c o v e r i n c a s e t h e re s u l t s a r e p o si t i v e . A n d
t h e n i f f o r s o m e r e a so n t h e r e i s st i l l a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e n e xt
Page 6 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
d a t e t h e n w e w i l l t a k e i t f r o m t h e re .
A D V M A N A R A M E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

T h e h e a ri n g o f – i s i t B ri g a d i e r o r

Major General?
A D V M A N A R A M E : I t i s B r i g a d i e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Th e

h e a ri n g

of

the

e vi d e n c e

of

B ri g a d i e r N y a m e k a X a b a i s p o st p o n e d t o a d a t e t h a t w i l l b e
d e t e r m i n e d i n d u e co u r s e i n t h e l i g h t o f h i s s i t u a t i o n a s
d e s cri b e d i n h i s a ff i d a vi t .
10

A D V M A N A R A M E : T h a n k y o u C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A n d y o u a r e e x cu s e d .
ADV MANARA ME: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k yo u . S o r ry. I sa w Mr N h l e k o ’s h a n d
b e i n g u p e a rl i e r o n . H a s t h e n e e d f a l l e n a w a y ?
M R N H L E K O : N o C h a i r g o o d m o rn i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a g o o d m o r n i n g . Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

I m a y a s w e l l d e cl a re C h a i r t h a t I a m st i l l o n

t h e g o o d si d e o f t h e l a w. B u t i n d e e d , t h e n e e d h a s n o t f a l l e n
a w a y S i r.
20

Ye s I w o u l d st i l l l i k e t o a d d r e s s t h e C h a i r i n

re s p e ct o f t w o p a r t i c u l a r m a t t e r s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t . O k a y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s I w o u l d l i k e t h a t o p p o rt u n i t y S i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay no that is fine.
Page 7 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr – let me hear Mr Hulley are you ready

t h a t w e st a rt w i t h w h a t M r N h l e k o w i s h e s t o r a i s e o r w o u l d
you like to…
ADV HULLEY SC: I was not aware of any…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e a l w i t h so m e t h i n g .
ADV HULLEY SC:

P a r d o n m e Mr C h a i r.

I was not aware

s o m e t h i n g sp e ci f i c b u t h e i s a t l i b e r t y t o p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. G o a h e a d M r N h l e k o .
10

MR NHLEKO:

N o t h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h M r C h a i r m a n .

I do

s o p r e ci s e l y C h a i r b e c a u s e I a m h e r e t o p r e s e n t m y e vi d e n ce
but largely with my commitment and a view that I also by all
m e a n s n e e d t o t r y a n d a s si st t h e c o m m i s si o n t o a r r i v e a t a
b e t t e r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e m a t t e r s a t h a n d a n d s o o n .
Now

the

–

ye st e r d a y

–

it

should

have

been

y e st e r d a y’s p r o c e e d i n g s
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l m a y b e b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I j u st c o n f i r m t h a t t h e o a t h y o u t o o k

y e st e r d a y c o n t i n u e s t o a p p l y t o d a y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s i t d o e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : T h a n k s ve r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye st e r d a y d u r i n g t h e p ro c e e d i n g s w e g o t t o a
Page 8 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
point where we – and I think at some point the Chair also
a s k e d v e r y p o i n t e d l y t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n o f w h a t – w h e r e t h e
re p o rt i n g l i n e s a n d I t h i n k i t i s d u ri n g t h e t i m e w h e n w e
t r yi n g t o f i g u re o u t y o u k n o w t h e i s su e s o f s e q u e n c i n g
re l a t i n g t o t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n c e a n d t h e i n t e r a ct i o n b e t w e e n
m y se l f t h e n a s Mi n i st e r a n d t h e f o r m e r E x e c u t i ve D i r e ct o r o f
I P I D M r M c B ri d e .
N o w t h e st a rt i n g p o i n t t h e n o f c o u r se I h a ve h a d t o
t r y a n d t h i n k a n d re c a l l s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s. A n d I st i l l st a n d
10

b y t h e vi e w t h a t s a y s g i v e n t h e n u m b e r o f y e a r s i n b e t w e e n
t h e r o l e t h a t I h a d p l a y e d a n d n o w i t i s a l m o st i m p o s si b l e t o
re c a l l e ve r yt h i n g – e v e r y p i e ce – b i t s a n d p i e ce s o f t h e
happenings then.
H o w e v e r, I h a v e n o b a si s f o r i n st a n c e i n r e g a rd t o t h e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o f t h e 2 4 t h a n d t h e 2 6 t h N o ve m b e r.

I have

n o b a s i s t o t h e n s a y I d o n o t e i t h e r i d e n t i f y n o r t r u st t h a t
t h o se

p i e ce s

of

co r re s p o n d e n c e

indeed

all

it

does

it

e st a b l i sh e s t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n t e r a ct i o n o n m y si d e f o r a n
e x a m p l e r e q u e st i n g I P I D t o s u r r e n d e r t h e d o c k e t a n d ce rt a i n
20

information relating to the renditions case.
I t h i n k i t i s i m p o rt a n t t o st r e s s t h a t t h a t p o i n t h a s
b e e n a rt i c u l a t e d a s t h e e a g e r n e s s o f t h e M i n i st er t o i n t e rf e re
with

the

independence

of

IPID.

And

that

i s i n c o r r e ct .

P r e ci s e l y a s I h a d a n s w e r e d t o t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r w h e n
h e p o s e d t h i s q u e st i o n . W h a t w e r e t h e r e p o rt i n g l i n e s ? T h e
Page 9 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
re p o rt i n g l i n e s w e r e d i r e ct e i t h e r I P I D E x e cu t i v e D i r e ct o r
re p o rt s t o t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e .
B u t a l s o , t h e r e a r e p r o vi si o n s i n t h e I P I D A ct I t h i n k i t
i s S e ct i o n 7 ( 1 2 ) a s yo u k n o w a l s o S e ct i o n 2 8 (1 ) w h i c h
e n t i t l e s t h e Mi n i st e r t o , h e a s k f o r a n y i n f o r m a t i o n p e r t a i n i n g
t o t h e w o r k o f I P I D o r t h e E xe c u t i v e D i r e ct o r a n d s o o n . S o I
t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t y o u k n o w i t i s i m p o rt a n t b e c a u s e t h e n i t
h a s g o t t o r e l a t e t o t h i s q u e st i o n t h a t t h e C h a i r w a n t e d t o b e
cl a ri f i e d b y i n t e r m s o f t h e – t h e r e p o rt i n g l i n e s.
10

A n d I t h i n k se q u e n t i a l l y t h e r e w a s a n e e d f o r t h a t i n
t h e l i g h t o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s. A n d a l s o , w h a t
h a d b e e n a l l e g e d a s t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e d o c k e t f ro m t h e
National

P r o s e cu t i n g

A u t h o ri t y.

So

it

b e ca m e

i m p o rt a n t

b e ca u s e i t w a s i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h e o n g o i n g w o r k t h a t I h a d
o n t h e o n e h a n d a s si g n e d t o t h e R ef e r e n c e G ro u p a n d t h e y
h a d p r o d u c e d a p a rt i c u l a r r e p o rt a t s o m e p o i n t a n d o f c o u r se
t h e r e w a s a n e e d a l s o f o r f u rt h e r i n ve st i g a t i o n t o cl a ri f y
ourselves about you know what happened, how it happened
a n d w h y i t h a p p e n e d a n d s o o n . A n d t h e n d e ci d e i n t e r m s o f
20

w h a t i t i s t h a t i n s t i t u t i o n a l l y f r o m a n a c co u n t a b i l i t y p o i n t o f
vi e w w e t h e r e f o r e n e e d e d t o d o a n u n d e rt a ki n g .
S o t h a t i s i n r e sp e ct o f t h a t i s s u e .

I think the – the

second one that I would also like to address the Chair about
re l a t e s t o – t h e r e a r e t w o r e p o rt s.

I n f a ct , I – I b a t t l e d t o

sl e e p y o u k n o w w h e n I re f l e ct e d o n t h e a rt i cu l a t i o n s o f t h e
Page 10 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C h a i r l a st n i g h t .

W h e r e i n t h e C h a i r p o s e d – p o se s t h i s.

Of

c o u r s e , I t h i n k t h e r e i s a q u e st i o n n o t n e c e s s a ri l y i s a
st a t e m e n t a n d s a y, b u t w h a t i s t h e p r o b l e m w i t h t h e si g n i n g
o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s ? T h e n I t h o u g h t m a y b e t h e r e i s a n e e d t o
t r y a n d cl a ri f y t h i s i s s u e a n d I h o p e I w o u l d a s si st i n t h i s – i n
that regard.
N o w I P I D b y l a w i s t o i n v e st i g a t e t h e c o n d u ct o f t h e
p o l i c e . B u t t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n c a n a l s o s p l i t i n t o t w o w a y s. I t
c o u l d b e r e l a t i n g t o i n ve st i g a t i n g t h e p o l i c e f o r a ct s o f
10

m i s c o n d u ct .

O k a y.

B u t i t c o u l d a l s o b e p o l i ce i n r e l a t i o n t o

c ri m i n a l c ri m e a n d cri m i n a l i n ve st i g a t i o n a n d s o o n .
i n st a n c e

we

are

t a l ki n g

about

a

cr i m i n a l

In this

i n v e s t i g at i o n

u n d e rt a ke n b y I P I D si g n e d o ff i n J a n u a r y t h e 2 2 n d o f 2 0 1 2 i f I
a m n o t m i st a k e n . N o 2 0 1 4 i t s h o u l d b e .
N o w – a n d i t i s n o t j u st a n y o t h e r re p o rt – i t i s n o t
j u st a n y o t h e r r e p o rt i t i s a r e p o r t t h a t w a s a p r o d u ct o f
i n v e st i g a t i n g

by

–

i n v e st i g a t i o n

–

sorry

by

a

chief

i n v e st i g a t o r w h o t h e n si g n s i t o ff a n d t h e n r e f e r s i t t o t h e
N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y f o r a d e ci si o n t o p ro s e c u t e
20

a n d t h a t i s i n Ja n u a r y.
N o w t h e r e i s n o p r o vi si o n e i t h e r b y l a w o r e v e n
c o n ve n t i o n f o r t h a t m a t t e r t h a t yo u w o u l d t h e n h a v e a s o
c a l l e d se c o n d r e p o rt w h i c h i n i t s e l f d o e s n o t n u l l i f y t h e f i r st
re p o rt n o r t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h a t re p o rt f o r a n e x a m p l e .
H a vi n g a n e q u a l o r a si m i l a r st a t u s w i t h t h e N a t i o n a l
Page 11 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
P r o s e cu t i n g A u t h o r i t y i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u h a v e t h e r e p o rt o f
t h e 2 2 n d a n d t h e r e p o rt o f t h e 1 8 t h M a r c h w i t h si m i l a r m o r e o r
l e s s si m i l a r c o n t e n t a n d s o o n b u t a t a cl o s e r l o o k y o u c a n
cl e a rl y s e e t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n t a m p e ri n g w i t h e v i d e n ce
contained therein.
N o w - s o i t i s n o t a r e p o rt t h a t c o rr e ct s t h e c o sm e t i c s
and grammar and language and so on.
I t i s n o t a r e p o rt t h a t d o e s t h a t .
m a t e ri a l
10

e vi d e n c e

with

the

re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t h a t t h e y h a d .

T h e s e co n d re p o rt .

All it did it blacked out
vi e w

to

influence

the

And I think that is where

t h e f u n d a m e n t a l p ro b l e m i s.
N o w I a m r a i si n g t h i s t h i n g p re c i se l y b e c a u s e I t h i n k
we

should

a p p re c i a t e

that

you

have

a

l e g i sl a t i v e

arrangement on the one hand between IPID and the National
P r o s e cu t i n g A u t h o ri t y i n t e r m s o f t h e r e f e rr a l o f su c h re p o rt s.
O n t h e o t h e r h a n d , t h e r e i s a d m i n i st ra t i v e r e s p o n si b i l i t y a n d
that

a d m i n i st r a t i v e

re s p o n si b i l i t y

lies

with

the

Chief

I n v e st i g a t o r t o si g n o ff t h a t re p o rt a n d r e c o m m e n d i t t o t h e
N PA . T h e s m a l l t h i n g t h a t I a m p r o b a b l y – f o r g e t t i n g t o
20

m e n t i o n i s t h a t i n s o f a r a s t h e c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n s i t i s
u s u a l p r a ct i ce t h a t t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y w o u l d
a s si g n a p r o s e c u t o r a n d o r p ro s e c u t o r s t o a s si st I P I D i n a n
i n v e st i g a t i o n .
O k a y b u t a t s o m e p o i n t , t h e y h a v e g o t t o st e p o ff
f ro m

that

p a rt i c u l a r

e xe r ci s e .

In

Page 12 of 201

this

i n st a n c e

it

was

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
A d v o c a t e M o si n g a n A d v o ca t e M o l e t s e I t h i n k o f t h e N PA
w h o w e r e a s si g n e d t o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r i n ve st i g a t i o n t o a s si st
I P I D i n t h e p ro d u ct i o n o f t h e i n v e s t i g a t i ve r e p o rt o f J a n u a r y
22nd.
Now the anomaly is this then.

Is that when you –

w h e n w e e n g a g e d w i t h t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y
p a rt i c u l a rl y t h e s e re s p e ct i ve A d v o c a t e s, t h e y d i d n o t k n o w
a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e s e co n d re p o rt .
N o w i f i n d e e d t h e se c o n d r e p o rt w a s a v a l i d o n e a s i t
10

h a s b e e n cl a i m e d f o r a n e x a m p l e t h e n t h e s e – t h e N a t i o n a l
P r o s e cu t i n g

A u t h o ri t y

and

p a rt i c u l a rl y

Mr

M o si n g

and

M o l e t s e w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e k n o w o f t h e p r o d u ct i o n o f
t h a t r e p o rt . O k a y. S o – a n d t h a t i s w h e r e t h e d i sj u n ct u r e i n
a sense lies in. So – and that it – it should be understood in
t h a t c o n t e xt b e c a u se I t h i n k t h e m i s u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t
w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt vi s a vi e t h e f i r st r e p o rt
i t i s y o u k n o w I t h i n k t h e r e i s a – t h e r e i s a vi e w t h a t w a n t s
t o s a y, n o t h o s e w e re j u st g r a m m a t i c a l s o rt o r c h a n g e s a n d
so on it is not true.
20

B u t t h e f a ct o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t a n d I

w i l l sh o w i t h e r e t h a t y o u d i st i n ct i v e l y i n t h e b o d y o f t h e t w o
re p o rt s h a v e d e l e t i o n s – y o u k n o w h a v e d e l e t i o n s.
S o i f – i f a n y o n e o f u s i n st i t u t i o n s o f st a t e o n m a t t e r s
s u c h a s t h i s w e w i l l w a n t t o p e rp e t u a t e t h a t ki n d o f n a r r a t i v e
t h e n I t h i n k w e m u st a c c e p t t h a t t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n s o ci e t y i s
n o t s e c u r e d . B e c a u se i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a g e n ci e s o f
Page 13 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
st a t e t h a t c a n w i l l y n i l l y i n t e rf e re w i t h t h e i n v e st i g a t i ve
re p o rt s a n d p r o c e s s e s a n d so o n a n d a l t e r a n d t a m p e r t h e r e
w i t h a vi e w t o ch a n g e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a t t h e e n d o f s u c h
re p o rt s t h e n y o u a r e n o t – t h a t i s n o t g o i n g t o b e a p u b l i c
benefit

insofar

as

matters

of

finance,

justice

and

h u m a n e n e s s f o r a n e xa m p l e .
So that is largely the problem.

So I thought let me

j u st cl a ri f y w i t h t h i s p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e r e
h a s b e e n a l o t o f m i s u n d e r st a n d i n g a r o u n d i t a n d I t h i n k i t
10

w o u l d b e o f b e n e f i t t o t h e p ro c e e d i n g s o f t h e c o m m i s si o n
t h a t w e b e g i n t o a l s o d e l v e i n t o t h e i s s u e o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
B e c a u s e e v e n i n t h e p u b l i c m i n d t h e q u e st i o n i s, w h a t a r e
t h e se t w o r e p o rt s t h a t w e k e e p o n s p e a k i n g a b o u t a n d w h a t
i s t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m ?

And how come

w h e n w e c a m e a c ro s s a si t u a t i o n s u c h a s t h a t ?

I si n c e r e l y

d o t h a n k t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r t o g r a n t m e t h i s o p p o rt u n i t y
t o t r y a n d c l a ri f y t h e se p a rt i cu l a r m a t t e r s.
Thank you – thank you very much Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

No that is fine.

Indeed that is a very

i m p o rt a n t p a rt o f w h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n w a n t s t o l o o k a t i n
re l a t i o n t o w h a t M r K h u b a o r M r M c B ri d e a n d M r K h u b a m a y
h a ve sa i d i n r e l a t i o n t o y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t i n r e g a r d t o t h e
re p o rt s.

I t h i n k t h a t M r H u l l e y i s m o v i n g t o w a rd s t h a t i s s u e

so I will allow him to do that.

I t h i n k t h a t w e m u st d e a l w i t h

t h a t i s s u e q u i t e p ro p e rl y b e c a u s e i s i f y o u – i f yo u d i d w a t c h
Page 14 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w h e n M r M c B ri d e a n d M r K h u b a g a v e e vi d e n c e y o u w o u l d
h a ve s e e n t h a t I h a v e c e rt a i n t h i n g s t h a t I d i d n o t u n d e r st a n d
which I would like to be dealt with with regard to every
w i t n e s s i n cl u d i n g yo u w h o c o m e s h e r e w h o w a s i n v o l v e d .
G i v e t h a t w i t n e s s a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o e n l i g h t e n m e a n d m a k e
m e u n d e r st a n d w h a t e v e r I m i g h t n o t u n d e r st a n d b e c a u s e
w h e n y o u a r e n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e si t u a t i o n yo u m i g h t n o t s e e
t h i n g s i n t h e sa m e w a y a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s i n v o l v e d . B u t i t
i s i m p o rt a n t f o r m e t o a rt i c u l a t e w h a t m y a r e a s o f c o n c e r n
10

a r e w h e n I h a v e a r e a s o f co n c e rn .

Because that gives the

w i t n e s s – t h a t g i v e s y o u t h e o p p o rt u n i t y t o a d d r e s s t h o s e
c o n ce r n s h e a d o n so t h a t i f a f t e r y o u h a v e a d d re s s e d t h e m , I
st i l l d o n o t u n d e r st a n d i t s h o u l d n o t b e b e c a u se y o u d i d n o t
get a chance to address them.

I t s h o u l d si m p l y b e b e c a u s e

y o u d i d y o u r b e st a n d f o r w h a t e v e r re a s o n m a y b e I st i l l d o
n o t u n d e r st a n d .

S o i t i s i m p o rt a n t .

B u t I j u st w a n t t o

mention that with regard to one of the issues you have
ra i se d I c o n n e ct e d w i t h a q u e st i o n I a s k e d y e st e r d a y w h e r e I
also referred to the Independence of the – of the IPID.
20

The

i d e a w a s s i m p l y t o s a y t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t t h e r e i s so m e
i n d e p e n d e n c e o n t h e p a rt o f I P I D o n e n e e d s t o u n d e r st a n d
t h e e xt e n t o f t h a t i n d e p e n d e n c e vi s -a - vi e t h e M i n i st e r.

So

t h a t i s w h y I w a s s a yi n g w h a t a r e t h e re p o rt i n g l i n e s s o t h a t
one

can

see

to

what

supposed to work?

e xt e n t

–

how

the

relationship

is

So – but as I say I think Mr Hulley is
Page 15 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
moving towards a point where we can engage with that area
o f t h e – o f t h e r e p o rt s q u i t e i n - d e p t h t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h
i t . B u t i f t h e r e i s so m e t h i n g y o u t h i n k s h o u l d n o t w a i t u n t i l
t h a t p o i n t y o u c a n d e a l w i t h i t n o w.
MR NHLEKO:

N o t h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h .

Yo u k n o w I re a l l y

d o b e g y o u r i n d u l g e n ce a l s o i n t h i s r e g a r d .

I f o rg o t o n e

small thing.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:
10

B u t y o u a l so y o u k n o w a r e m e n t i o n i n g a

c ri t i c a l p a rt a ro u n d t h e i s s u e o f i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d I t h i n k w e
w i l l g e t t o a p o i n t a l s o t o t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h e r e f l e ct i o n s a s
w e l l a s t h e s u b s e q u e n t s o rt o f o r d e r b y t h e C o n st i t u t i o n a l
C o u rt i n re g a r d t o t h e i s s u e o f i n d e p e n d e n ce .

B e c a u se I

t h i n k i t i s a c r u ci a l p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

Now the – the one thing I forgot to deal with

when dealing with this thing and apologies for forgetfulness
is that we should be alive all of us to the fact that people
d i e d a n d d i e d t h r o u g h a l l e g e d l y a g e n ci e s o f st a t e t h a t w e r e
20

s u p p o s e d t o u p h o l d t h e l a w.

And if – I think if we fail

w h e t h e r i t i s i n s t i t u t i o n s o r st a t e a n d S o u t h A f ri c a n s i n
g e n e r a l t o b e a l i v e t o t h a t f a ct t h e n t h a t w o u l d m e a n w e a re
l o si n g o u r h u m a n i t y i n a s e n s e . A n d I t h i n k w e s h o u l d w h e n
w e d e a l w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o re p o rt s w e s h o u l d k n o w
t h a t b e t w e e n t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e – o f t h e t w o – o f t h e s o
Page 16 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
c a l l e d t w o r e p o rt s t h e y a r e h u m a n l i v e s – p e o p l e t h a t re a l l y
d i e d re g a rd l e s s o f w h e t h e r t h e y w e re g u i l t y o f a n y o t h e r
w h a t e v e r a n d s o – b u t t h e y d i e d i n t h e h a n d s o f st a t e
a g e n ci e s a n d s o f o rt h .
Now

I

am

r a i si n g

this

point

Honourable

Chair

b e ca u s e I h a v e h e a r d a d i st u r b i n g a rt i cu l a t i o n a n d i n f a ct
t h i s a rt i cu l a t i o n I a l s o e v e n p i c ke d u p – p i c k e d i t u p n o t o n l y
i n M r M c B ri d e ’s a ff i d a vi t b u t a l s o e v e n i n t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n c e
o f t h e c o m m i s si o n w h e n t h e y w a n t e d m e t o f o r w a r d re p o rt s
10

that were produced by – by the Reference Group there is a
re f e r e n c e t o s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d t h e s o c a l l e d R e n d i t i o n C a s e .
N o w I h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t a rt i c u l a t i o n b e c a u se
re n d i t i o n t o o k p l a c e i t i s n o t s o c a l l e d .
i n v e st i g a t i o n .

T h e re w a s a n

Th e N PA w a s i n v o l v e d a n d s o o n a t so m e

p o i n t s o i t i s e st a b l i s h e d , i t i s a f a ct – i t i s f a ct u a l i t t o o k
place.

T h e r e a re st a t e m e n t s t o o i n t h a t r e g a r d s w o rn t o b y

d i ff e r e n t i n d i v i d u a l s w h o a l s o p l a y e d a r o l e i n s u c h a n
e x e r ci s e a n d s o o n . S o i t i s n o t s o c a l l e d i t i s f a ct u a l .
B u t i f w e w e r e t o c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e vi e w t h a t s a y s i t
20

i s so c a l l e d s o w e m u st a l s o a c c e p t t h a t w e s h a l l d e v e l o p a
c o n ce p t c a l l e d s o ca l l e d d e a t h s b e c a u se t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e
that died.

So we will then say you know this so called

d e a t h s a n d s o f o rt h a n d I d o n o t t h i n k w e c a n g e t t o t h a t
point.

F o r m e i t b o t h e r s m e f r o m a c o n s c i o u s p o i n t o f vi e w

t h a t w e c a n n o t b e g i n t o d e ve l o p c o n c e p t s a n d n o t i o n s o f t h a t
Page 17 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
n a t u r e p a rt i c u l a rl y w h e n w e a re d e a l i n g w i t h h u m a n l i v e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : A n d t h a t i s a p o i n t t h a t I f o r g o t t o a l s o i n cl u d e
i n t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no I will – I do not want us to – to spend
more time – a lot of time on it.

I hear what you say but I

re m e m b e r

some

–

I

remember

that

people

say

when

s o m e b o d y h a s b e e n a r r e st e d b y t h e p o l i c e a n d i t i s s a i d t h a t
t h e p e r s o n i s a s u s p e ct a n d t h e y s a w t h a t h e o r s h e ki l l e d
10

s o m e b o d y t h e y s a y t h e y d o n o t u n d e r st a n d w h y h e i s c a l l e d
a s u sp e ct b e c a u s e w e k n o w h e ki l l e d so a n d s o . H e ki l l e d s o
a n d so w h y i s h e c a l l e d a s u sp e ct . S o – b u t I d o n o t w a n t u s
to spend time on it.

Let us move on.

I u n d e r st a n d w h e r e

y o u co m e f r o m a n d j a o k a y a l ri g h t . M r H u l l e y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k yo u M r C h a i r.

But without going

into too much in relation to the so called Rendition Case
there

was

a

docket

opened

in

that

matter

which

was

ultimately handed over to IPID you aware of that?
M R N H L E K O : W h i c h w a s u l t i m a t e l y h a n d e d o ve r t o N PA .
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

To I P I D .

T h e r e w a s a d o c k e t i n re s p e ct

o f t h e R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

That docket was ultimately handed over

t o I P I D f o r f u rt h e r i n ve st i g a t i o n a n d I P I D t h e n r a n w i t h t h a t
d o c ke t

in

other

words

continued

Page 18 of 201

to

i n v e st i g a t e

the

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e i n r e s p e ct o f t h e R e n d i t i o n
M a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Hm.

C h a i r I a m a w a re o f a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n

u n d e rt a ke n

IPID

and

by

su b s e q u e n t l y

that

i n ve st i g a t i o n

re f e rr e d t o t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o t h e c a se t h a t t h a t r e l a t e s t o . T h a t t h e
c a s e h a s a c a se n u m b e r a n d i t i s g o t i n ve st i g a t o r s i n t h a t .
T h a t ca s e i s t h e o ff i ci a l c a s e n u m b e r t h a t i s a s si g n e d t o i t
b u t i n a d d i t i o n , t h e r e f e r e n ce t o t h e so - c a l l e d R e n d i t i o n C a s e
10

M r N h l e ko i s t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h e m e d i a h a d re f e rr e d t o i t a s
t h e R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r o r t h e R e n d i t i o n C a se .
MR NHLEKO:
H u l l e y.

I h e a r yo u .

I d o n o t s e e m t o g e t y o u Mr

A r e y o u s a yi n g w e c a l l e d i t s o - ca l l e d b e c a u s e t h e

m e d i a r e f e rr e d t o i t a s R e n d i t i o n ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Th e o ff i ci a l t y p e o r t h e o ff i ci a l . . . t h e

o ff i ci a l r e f e re n c e t o i t i s t h e r e f e re n c e t o t h e ca s e n u m b e r i n
re s p e ct o f t h a t b e i n g o p e n e d . T h a t i s t h e o ff i ci a l .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

called

Rendition

S o o t h e r. . . e ve r yt h i n g e l s e i s t o t h e s o Matter

b e ca u s e

everybody

u n d e r st a n d s

w h a t t h a t i s re f e rr i n g t o t h e r e . D o y o u u n d e r st a n d t h a t ?
MR NHLEKO: No, I do not.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. We l l , . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
ADV HULLEY SC: ...let us move on.
Page 19 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : J a , o k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC: Now you have referred to two issues that
y o u w o u l d l i k e t o ra i s e .

T h e f i r st i s s u e w a s i n r e s p e ct o f

S e ct i o n 7 ( 1 2 ) o f t h e I P I D A ct .
MR

MOKHARI

SC:

No,

Chairman

j u st

to

co r r e ct

the

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y ?
MR MOKHARI SC:

Ye s, i f y o u ch e c k -i n so t h a t t h e w i t n e s s

i s n o t . . . s o t h a t a n i n c o r r e ct p r o p o si t i o n i s n o t p u t t o t h e
10

w i t n e s s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR MOKHARI SC:

T h e m a t t e r h a s b e e n r e f e r re d t o o ff i ci a l

a s R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r a n d w e c a n t a k e i t f ro m t h e re p o rt . S o I
a m l o o ki n g a t o ff i ci a l d o cu m e n t s.

Th e f i r st r e p o r t i s t h e

re p o rt o f 2 5 J u n e 2 0 1 2 o f t h e . . . t h e t h e n s e c r e t a ri a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t r yi n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d o n o t

s p e n d t i m e o n w h e t h e r i t s h o u l d R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r o r so c a l l e d R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r, b u t I a c c e p t M r M o k h a ri , i f t h e
d o cu m e n t o r r e p o rt o r d o c ke t re f e r r e d t o a s t h e R e n d i t i o n
20

M a t t e r, n o i m p re s si o n sh o u l d b e c r e a t e d t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t
o r r e p o rt s a i d so - c a l l e d i f i t d i d n o t s a y s o - c a l l e d .
MR MOKHARI SC:

Ye s, i n d e e d .

I w a s j u st c o rr e ct i n g t h a t

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st co r r e ct i n g t h a t . Ye s.
MR

MOKHARI

SC:

...that

the

Page 20 of 201

o ff i ci a l

d o cu m e n t s

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
M R M O K H A R I S C : . . . r e f e r re d t o i t a s R e n d i t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. [ l a u g h s]
MR MOKHARI SC:

Ye s, ye s.

A n d I h a v e a r e p o rt o f

2 5 Ju n e 2 0 1 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR MOKHARI SC:

. . . o f t h e C i v i l i a n S e cr e t a ri a t a n d t h e

re p o rt o f t h e R e f e re n c e G r o u p o f 2 2 N o v e m b e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y I si m p l e s a y f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o se s, I

do not have any problem with somebody who refers to it as
t h e s o - c a l l e d R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r b e c a u se t h e y m i g h t n o t b e
sure whether it falls within... what happened falls within what
is referred to as Rendition or they might not even know what
R e n d i t i o n m e a n s.

So I do not have a problem with that.

A n y o n e w h o c a l l s i t a R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r, t h a t i s f i n e a s w e l l .
M R M O K H A R I S C : T h a n k yo u , M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s m o ve o n .
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

N o w M r N h l e k o , yo u re f e rr e d t o S e ct i o n

7 ( 1 2 ) o f t h e I P I D A ct t o m a k e t h e p o i n t , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t ,
t h a t t h e r e i s i n f a ct a r e p o rt i n t h e l i n e b e t w e e n t h e . . .
b e t w e e n I P I D o r t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e ct o r o f I P I D a n d t h e
m i n i st e r ’s o ff i c e . D o I u n d e r st a n d t h a t c o r re ct l y ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y o u d o .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o l e t u s c o n si d e r S e ct i o n 7 (1 2 ). S e ct i o n
Page 21 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
7 ( 1 2 ) sa y s. . . a n d M r C h a i r i t s h o u l d b e i n t h e l e g i sl a t i o n
bundle.

We

have

marked

it

Exhibit Y

L e g i sl a t i o n

and

A u t h o ri t i e s B u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W i l l t h e w i t n e s s. . . I t h i n k t h e w i t n e s s

s h o u l d h a v e t h e b e n e f i t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : H e sh o u l d h a ve a c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . o f b e i n g g i v e n t h e sa m e t h i n g . T h e y w i l l
t h e n g i v e i t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : N o , i t i s f i n e . I w i l l l i st e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w ? Yo u w i l l f o l l o w ?
M R N H L E K O : I w i l l f o l l o w, y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A l ri g h t .

C o n t i n u e . . . j u st r e a d i t M r

H u l l e y. Yo u w i l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

It says the

following:
“The

executive

d i re ct o r

m u st

at

any

time

when

re q u e st e d t o d o s o b y t h e m i n i st e r o r p a rl i a m e n t
re p o rt o n t h e a ct i vi t i e s o f t h e d i re ct e d (? ) t o t h e
m i n i st e r o r p a rl i a m e n t . . . ”
20

I s t h a t t h e p r o vi si o n t h a t y o u a r e r e l yi n g u p o n ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s w h a t t h e . . . I p o i n t e d ( ? ) o u t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w o f c o u r s e , h e i s re q u i r e d u n d e r t h i s

s e ct i o n t o r e p o rt t o y o u o n t h e a ct i vi t i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n
c o n d u ct e d .

I t m i g h t b e e v e n a n a ct i vi t y r e l a t e d t o a s p e ci f i c

m a t t e r a s i n t h e . . . i n r e s p e ct o f t h e R e n d i t i o n M a t t e r.
Page 22 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
N o w, i t ce rt a i n l y d o e s n o t . . . u n l e s s y o u . . . u n l e s s y o u t e l l
m e o t h e r w i se , S e ct i o n 7 ( 1 2 ) d o e s n o t r e q u i r e y o u o r re q u i r e
t h e e x e c u t i ve d i re ct o r t o h a n d o v e r a d o c k e t t o t h e m i n i st e r
o r t o p a rl i a m e n t . Wo u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o sa y ?
MR

NHLEKO:

interpretation

No,
versus

I
my

think

that

is

a

i n t e rp r e t a t i o n

matter

r e a l l y.

of

yo u r

We

may

d e ci d e C h a i r w h e t h e r w e w a n t t o s p e n d t h e w h o l e d a y t r yi n g
to

unpack

the

c o n ce p t u a l

u n d e r st a n d i n g

if...

what

that

s e ct i o n i s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

It depends on the point that Mr Hulley

w i s h e s t o e x p l o re . M r H u l l e y ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e m i n i st e r a s a n e x e c u t i v e f u n ct i o n

re l a t i v e t o t h e S A P S , r e l a t i v e t o I P I D .

Wo u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o

say?
MR NHLEKO:
p o rt f o l i o
d i re ct l y
20

a

T h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e i n t h a t m i n i st e ri a l

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

within

that

has

p a rt i c u l a r

got

i n st i t u t i o n s

p o rt f o l i o

to

that

the

re p o rt

e x e cu t i v e

a u t h o ri t y t h e r e , w h o t h e n i s t e r m e d a s t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o I a m n o t s u r e i f I e n t i r e l y f o l l o w. Yo u

a r e s a yi n g t h a t t h e m i n i st e r h a s d i ff e r e n t p o rt f o l i o s r e p o rt i n g
t o t h e m i n i st e r ?
MR NHLEKO:

T h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e i s f o r, a m o n g st o t h e r

t h i n g s, m a d e u p o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e , D P C I ,
Page 23 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
I P I D , t h e P ri v a t e S e c u ri t y I n d u st r y R e g u l a t o r y A u t h o r i t y, a s
w e l l a s, t h e C i vi l i a n S e cr e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e w h i c h i s b a si c a l l y
h o u s e d w i t h i n t h e a d m i n i st r a t i v e s e ct i o n o f t h e m i n i s t r y a n d
so on.

S o t h a t i s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h a t i n s t i t u t i o n a l

arrangement.
ADV HULLEY SC: No, no, no. That is fair enough. But the
p o i n t i s t h a t i t i s a n e xe c u t i v e f u n ct i o n .

The ministry is a

p o l i t i c a l a p p o i n t i n g , co r r e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

And the operational matters get done or

t h e o p e ra t i o n a l h e a d o f t h e S A P S . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . w o u l d b e t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n o f

Police.
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t b e f a i r t o s a y ?
M R N H L E K O : N o , t h a t i s f a i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Th e n i n so f a r a s d o c k e t s a r e co n c e r n e d ,

w h e n a d o c k e t . . . a s f a r a s a d o c k e t i s co n c e rn e d , w h e n a n
20

i n v e st i g a t i o n n e e d s t o b e co n d u ct e d o r i f a d o c k e t n e e d s t o
b e g i ve n t o a n y p e r s o n a t o p e r a t i o n a l l e v e l , t h a t d o c k e t m u st
g o t o t h e . . . o r c a n g o t o t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r.
MR NHLEKO:

No, not insofar as IPID is concerned and I

t h i n k w e n e e d t o u n d e r st a n d t h e m a n d a t e o f I P I D vi s a vi e t h e
p o l i c e s e r vi c e .

Yo u w o u l d n o t e m p h a si s e a si t u a t i o n w h e r e
Page 24 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t h e n t h e p o l i c e a r e h a n d e d re p o rt s t h a t a r e a b o u t t h e m .

It

w o u l d n o t m a k e s e n se f r o m t h e si d e o f I P I D b e ca u s e I P I D
i n v e st i g a t e s t h e c o n d u ct o f t h e p o l i c e i n re s p e ct o f c ri m i n a l
m a t t e r s a n d o t h e r a r e a s o f p r e vi o u s c o n d u ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

They

would

i n v e st i g a t e . . .

they

could

i n v e st i g a t e e v e n t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r ?
MR NHLEKO: They would.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO: They would.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : T h e y. . . t h a t i s w h a t t h e l a w e st a b l i s h e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H e f a l l s w i t h i n t h e j u ri s d i ct i o n i n t e rm s
o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n a s w e l l .
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y, e x a ct l y. C o rr e ct . C o r r e ct , y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We l l , l e t u s j u st g o t h r o u g h t h e p r o vi si o n s
o f S e ct i o n 7 a n d i t a ct u a l l y w o u l d b e u s e f u l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r ry.

J u st t o c o m p l e t e t h e p o i n t

which I think you seek to make. The point you seek to make
20

i s, I P I D h a s j u ri s d i ct i o n t o i n ve st i g a t e c o n d u ct b y a l l p e o p l e
w h o a re p o l i ce o ff i c e r s u n d e r S A P S o r m a y b e i t g o e s b e y o n d
t h a t b u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: No, it does goes beyond that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
MR NHLEKO:

I t i s a l l p o l i c e o ff i c e r s i n t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n
Page 25 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
P o l i c e S e r vi c e a n d m u n i ci p a l p o l i ce s e r vi c e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no-no. No, no.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w a b o u t t h e m u n i ci p a l .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t b e c a u s e yo u d i d n o t . . . y o u d i d n o t . . .

y o u a r e n o t r e sp o n si b l e f o r t h e m , I a m n o t t a l ki n g a b o u t
them.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s t a l ki n g i n t e rm s o f S A P S t h a t y o u s a y
i t i s o n l y p o l i c e o ff i c e r s.
fall

within

that...

Clerks and other people would not

within

their

j u r i sd i ct i o n .

Is

it

not?

A d m i n i st r a t i v e st a ff w h o a r e n o t p o l i c e o ff i ce r s.
MR NHLEKO:

T h e y a re a d m i n st a ff t h a t a r e d e f i n e d o u t si d e

o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e A ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

I n o t h e r w o r d s, t h e y a r e p a rt o f t h e P u b l i c

S e r vi c e A ct b y d e f i n i t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a .
20

MR NHLEKO:
that

are

B u t yo u c o u l d a l s o f i n d t h a t w h e n a d m i n st a ff

cl a s si f i e d

under

the

South

A f ri c a n

Police

police

o ff i c e r

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

...who...

if

yo u

Page 26 of 201

are

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . b u t p e rf o rm i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : A d m i n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a d m i n st u ff , y o u w o u l d st i l l f a l l u n d e r
them.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y o u w o u l d .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t i f y o u a r e n o t a p o l i c e o ff i c e r, t h e n

y o u w o u l d n o t f a l l u n d e r t h e m e ve n t h o u g h y o u a re w i t h i n
10

SAPS.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
IPID

had

S o t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a ki n g i s t h a t t h e

j u ri s d i ct i o n

to

i n v e st i g a t e

even

the

National

C o m m i s si o n e r.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

that

t h e re

is

a

r e a so n

why

the

e x e cu t i v e d i r e ct o r re p o rt s t o t h e m i n i st e r.
20

M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e a s o n i s , i f t h e y w e re t o r e p o rt t o
t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r, t h e r e w o u l d b e a s e r i o u s ri s k
t h a t t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r w o u l d b e t h e su b j e ct o f
i n v e st i g a t i o n o f p e o p l e q u i t e se n i o r cl o s e t o h i m .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
Page 27 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t i s n o t a n i d e a l si t u a t i o n a n d t h a t

i s w h y t h e l a w s a y s t h e y m u st r e p o rt t o t h e m i n i st e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s, I t h i n k t h a t i s a c o r re ct u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

Otherwise, their work will be severally polluted.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e . . . y e s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e t h e m i n i st e r i s n o t . . . d o e s n o t f a l l

u n d e r t h e i r j u ri sd i ct i o n . H e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: H’n-‘n.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s n o t a p o l i c e o ff i c e r.
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s co r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u , Mr C h a i r.

Mr Nhleko, thank

y o u v e r y m u c h f o r t h a t b e c a u se i n f a ct y o u a r e i n p a rt ri g h t
as far as that is concerned.

I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o c o n si d e r

S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 ) o f t h e I P I D A ct .
M R N H L E K O : H ’ m . O k a y. N o , g o a h e a d si r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

I f yo u l o o k a t . . .

there is a file

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : I m a k e m y a t t e m p t t o l i st e n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f yo u g o t o f i l e D i vi d e r 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: I think he is quite happy that you go ahead
a n d p u t t h e q u e st i o n .
Page 28 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w i l l b e a b l e t o u n d e r st a n d .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f h e h a s t o l o o k a t t h e a ct , h e w i l l f e e l
f re e t o d o s o .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 ) s a y s t h e f o l l o w i n g :
“ T h e e x e c u t i v e d i re ct o r m u st r e f e r c ri m i n a l o ff e n c e s,
re v e a l e d

as

National
10

a

result

of

Prosecuting

an

i n v e st i g a t i o n ,

A u t h o ri t y

for

to

the

c ri m i n a l

p r o s e c u t i o n a n d n o t i f y t h e m i n i st e r. . . ”
H a v e yo u g o t t h e p r o vi si o n si r ?
M R N H L E K O : J a - n o , I a m l i st e n i n g . I h e a r yo u v e r y w e l l .
ADV HULLEY SC:
“. . . a n d n o t i f y t h e m i n i st e r o f su c h r e f e r r a l . . . ”
MR NHLEKO: H’m?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o w h a t t h e m i n i st e r m u st b e i nf o rm e d o f
i s t h e f a ct t h a t I P I D h a s c o n d u ct e d a n i n ve st i g a t i o n .
has

come

to

the

co n cl u si o n

that

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n

IPID
has

re v e a l e d t h e co m m i s si o n o f a n o ff e n ce a n d I P I D m u st t h e n
20

re f e r

the

matter

the

National

P ro s e c u t i o n

A u t h o ri t y

for

p r o s e c u t i o n a n d m u st m e r e l y a d vi s e o r n o t i f y t h e m i n i st e r o f
such referral.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o rr y, M r H u l l e y.

I a m st i l l t r y t o f i n d

w h e r e t h e . . . [ i n d i s t i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

It is page 152 of the bundle.
Page 29 of 201

It is file

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
D i vi d e r 8 . I t i s p a rt o f t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: One, five, two?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e o n e , f i v e , t w o o f t h a t b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e g i sl a t i o n a n d A u t h o ri t i e s ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct , M r C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o s e ct i o n . . . ?
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o w h a t y o u a s t h e m i n i st e r h a v e t o b e

i n f o r m e d o f i s t h e f a ct t h a t I P I D h a s m a d e a re f e rr a l t o t h e
N a t i o n a l P ro s e c u t i o n A u t h o ri t y o r p ro s e c u t i o n o f a c a s e t h a t
i t h a s i n v e st i g a t e d a n d t h a t i t b e l i e v e s o r t h a t I P I D h a s c o m e
t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e c a se s h o u l d b e p ro s e c u t e d .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o t p r o vi d e y o u w i t h a d o c k e t b u t i f

y o u . . . t h a t . . . w o u l d i t b e . . . w o u l d i t b e f a i r t o sa y t h a t S e ct i o n
20

7 ( 4 ) d o e s n o t s u g g e st i n a n y w a y t h a t a d o c k e t h a s t o b e
p r o vi d e d t o y o u ?
MR

NHLEKO:

a p p l i ca t i o n

of

No.

The...

i n st i t u t i o n a l

generally

i n st r u m e n t s,

s p e a ki n g ,
there

a re

in

the
ideal

si t u a t i o n s, b u t i n t h i s i n st a n ce M r H u l l e y, y o u m i g h t b e
m i s si n g o n e p a rt i c u l a r p o i n t .
Page 30 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
The

one

p a rt i c u l a r

point

i s t h i s.

Yo u

a l re a d y

had

a l l e g a t i o n s o f m i s c o n d u ct l e v e l l e d a g a i n st t h e ve r y s a m e
IPID.

S o , i n o t h e r w o r d s, . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I P I D w a s “ s o m e w h a t

t a i n t e d ” b e c a u s e o f t h e i s s u e o f t a m p e ri n g , ri g h t .
And that matter that is brought to your attention as the
e x e cu t i v e
allegations

a u t h o r i t y,
of

to

serious

then

sa y

m i s c o n d u ct

but

t h e re

which

are

deals

these

with

the

q u e st i o n o f t a m p e r i n g a n d / o r d e l e t i o n o f m a t e ri a l e vi d e n ce
f ro m o n e re p o rt t o co n st i t u t e a n o t h e r re p o rt .
10

What are you

doing about that?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
M R N H L E K O : B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : L e t u s j u st . . . S o rr y.
MR NHLEKO:

S o I a m s a yi n g .

Ye s, i n d e e d .

p r o vi si o n w a s a p p l i c a b l e a n d i t a p p l i e d .

I n f a ct , t h i s

Yo u k n o w, y o u

w o u l d a l w a y s g e t re p o rt s a b o u t , y o u k n o w, a s m i n i st e r a b o u t ,
this is the amount of work that we are doing.

This is about

t h e c a s e a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . S o y o u w i l l g e t s u c h r e p o rt s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
20

M R N H L E K O : B u t t h e r e w a s a sp e ci f i c. . . a p o i n t . . . a s p e ci f i c
p r o b l e m a n d t h a t i s t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I a m r e a l l y c o n c e r n e d . . . a n d I a p p re c i a t e

t h a t e xp l a n a t i o n a n d w e w i l l g e t t o t h a t i n a m o m e n t .
v e r y c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 ).
Page 31 of 201

I am

It grants

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
a . . . i t p l a c e s a n o b l i g a t i o n u p o n I P I D t o p r o vi d e t h e m i n i st e r
with the docket.
MR

NHLEKO:

It

makes a

p ro v i si o n

f o r s u b m i s si o n

of

information.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : To n o t i f y yo u o f t h e f a ct o f t h e r e f e rr a l .
M R N H L E K O : N o , I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t 7 ( 1 2 ).
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
M R N H L E K O : I n f o r m a t i o n t h a t t h e m i n i st e r w i l l r e q u i re .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
10

MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o , w h a t I a m t ryi n g t o s u g g e s t i s.

h a ve t o t a ke i t st e p - b y - st e p .

I

A n d I c e rt a i n l y w i l l n o t b e

u n f a i r t o yo u w h e r e I w i l l t r y t o c o m p e l yo u t o a n s w e r a
q u e st i o n i n i so l a t i o n b u t I j u st w a n t t o g o t h r o u g h i t st e p- b y st e p .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d o n c e w e a r e f i n i sh e d w i t h t h e

s e ct i o n , I w i l l g i v e y o u a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o t e l l m e , w h e r e y o u
f i n d t h e p r o vi s i o n t h a t a l l o w s yo u or i m p o s e a n o b l i g a t i o n
20

u p o n I P I D t o p r o vi d e t h e m i n i st e r w i t h t h e d o c k e t .
that... is that a fair way in which to deal with it?
M R N H L E K O : N o , I a m l i st e n i n g si r. Ye s, g o a h e a d .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e ?
M R N H L E K O : N o , I a m s a yi n g I a m l i st e n i n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
Page 32 of 201

Wo u l d

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO: Go ahead.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o y o u w i l l b e s a t i sf i e d t h a t S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 )

i s n o t t h a t p r o vi si o n t h a t I a m . . . t h a t i m p o s e s a n o b l i g a t i o n
u p o n I P I D t o p r o vi d e t h e m i n i st e r w i t h a d o c k e t ?
M R N H L E K O : I t i s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r p r e t a t i o n , s i r.
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

O ka y.

So

let

us

go

to

s e ct i o n

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e l e t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y. I t i s y o u r
u n d e r st a n d i n g o f i t M r N h l e k o , t h a t i t i n cl u d e s a d o c k e t a s
10

p a rt o f w h a t t h e e x e cu t i v e d i r e ct o r m u st o r m a y s e n d t o t h e
m i n i st e r ?
I s t h a t h o w y o u u n d e r st a n d i t ? I s i t h o w y o u u n d e r st o o d
it at the time?

O r y o u d o n o t h a v e a s p e ci f i c u n d e r s t a n d i n g

o f i t b u t y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d a g re e w i t h t h e
i n t e r p r e t a t i o n t h a t Mr H u l l e y p u t s f o r w a r d ?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , C h a i r p e r so n a s I h a v e e l u d e d e a r l i e r t o

t h i s p o i n t , e a rl i e r o n . Yo u h a d a s p e ci f i c p r o b l e m a n d a v e r y
prudent problem.
Yo u , t h e r e f o r e , r e q u i r e a l l t h e n e c e s s a r y i n f o rm a t i o n t o
20

e n a b l e y o u t o a s a n e x e c u t i v e a u t h o ri t y t o d e l v e i n t o t h e
i d e n t i f i e d i s s u e s a n d d e a l w i t h t h e a l l e g a t i o n s.
N o w, I a m j u st m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e .

I f yo u , f o r a n

e x a m p l e , y o u n e e d e d t o e v a l u a t e a n d e st a b l i sh w h e t h e r
there

are

two

r e p o rt s

and

is

it

the

22nd

versus

the

1 8 t h o f M a r c h a n d s o f o rt h , yo u . . . t h e i s su e o f t h e d o c ke t
Page 33 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w o u l d a l s o e n a b l e y o u t o b e a b l e t o l o o k i n t o t h a t , o k a y.
A n d h o w. . . a n d w h a t a re t h e i s s u e s t h a t c o n st i t u t e t h e
i s s u e a t h a n d , y o u k n o w.
t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] .

Because that is what the issue of

That is how it would be useful to yourself

a s a p e r so n w h o i s t r yi n g t o l o o k i n t o w h a t t h e f a ct s a r e i n
re l a t i o n t o t h a t .
B u t i f yo u c h o o se t o b e n a r ro w l y a d m i n i st r a t i v e , y o u t a l k
o f t h e d o c ke t a s t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e f i l e t h a t m o v e s f r o m o n e
place to another and that is it.
10

B u t i f i t i s i n r e l a t i o n t o e st a b l i s h i n g t h e f a ct s a n d t h e
h a p p e n i n g s a b o u t t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n
t h i s p a rt i cu l a r m a t t e r, y o u w i l l d e f i n i t e l y n e e d t o l o o k i n t o t h e
c o n t e n t a n d st a t e m e n t s a n d e v e r yt h i n g e l s e t h a t co n st i t u t e s
t h a t p a rt i cu l a r d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , yo u se e .

I u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u a r e

s a yi n g b u t I t h i n k t h e p ro b l e m i s t h a t M r H u l l e y i s n o t t h e re
yet.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

H e i s a t a p ri o r st a g e o f si m p l e s e e ki n g t o

e st a b l i sh w h a t y o u r o w n u n d e r st a n d i n g i s o f S e ct i o n 7 ( 4 ). O f
c o u r s e , y o u m i g h t h a v e a n u n d e r st a n d i ng o f S e ct i o n 7 (4 ) a n d
y o u m i g h t s a y, “ T h i s i s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f S e ct i o n 7 (4 ).
T h i s i s h o w I u n d e r st o o d i t .

W h e t h e r m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s

ri g h t o r w r o n g b u t t h i s i s h o w I u n d e r st o o d i t a t t h e t i m e .

I

a m n o t a l a w y e r. I w a s a m i n i st e r. T h i s i s h o w I u n d e r st o o d
Page 34 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
i t ”.
A n d t h e n M r H u l l e y c a n s a y w h a t h e w a n t s t o s a y.
s a y s, “ N o , i t i s w ro n g .

It is not...

If he

Yo u a r e n o t a l a w y e r ”.

O k a y. B u t y o u m a y h a ve h a d a n u n d e r st a n d i n g o f i t .
B u t i t i s a l so p o s si b l e t h a t y o u d i d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y h a v e
a n u n d e r st a n d i n g o f i t . I n w h i ch c a s e , a l l y o u sa y i s: “ L o o k,
I a m n o t s u re i f I h a d a n u n d e r st a n d i n g o f i t .

Or I am not

s u r e t h a t I a p p l i e d m y m i n d t o w h a t i t m e a n s o r I kn e w w h a t
it meant.
10

B u t i f y o u a s k m e f o r w h y I a s k e d f o r c e rt a i n

i n f o r m a t i o n , I ca n e x p l a i n t o y o u w h y I a s ke d f o r t h a t
i n f o r m a t i o n ”.
So

at

this

st a g e ,

he

is

j u st

seeks

to

e st a b l i s h

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

...whether

u n d e r st a n d i n g o f w h a t i t m e a n s.

you

do

h a ve

a

c e rt a i n

And then, once he knows

t h a t , h e c a n m o v e f o r w a r d a n d t h e n m a y b e g o t o t h e st a g e
t h a t y o u h a ve d e a l t w i t h a l r e a d y.
MR NHLEKO:
20

H’m.

N o , t h a n k s v e r y m u c h C h a i r.

But I

re a l l y d o b e l i e ve t h a t I h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t q u e st i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
MR NHLEKO:

O f c o u r se , i t m a y n o t b e t h e l e g a l i st i c ki n d o f

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o , n o . T h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u kn o w.

B e c a u s e , I t h i n k a s y o u j u st s a y,

Page 35 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
y o u kn o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
M R N H L E K O : [ I n d i st i n ct ] a f ri e n d o f t h e . . .
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

Th e . . .

you

o b vi o u s l y

had

an

u n d e r st a n d i n g o f S e ct i o n 7 ( 1 2 ) a n d w h a t s e ct i o n s . . . w h a t
p o w e r s S e ct i o n 7 ( 1 2 ) . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

b a se d o n I P I D .

. . . i n ve st e d i n y o u o r w h a t o b l i g a t i o n s

T h e q u e st i o n I w o u l d l i ke t o p e ru s e i s,

w h e t h e r t h a t w a s t h e u n d e r st a n d i n g y o u h a d a t t h e t i m e i . e .
in 2014?

O r i s t h i s a n u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t y o u . . . t h a t h a s

come to you subsequent to 2014?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I a l so d o t h i n k I h a ve re s p o n d e d t o t h a t

q u e st i o n C h a i r. I h a ve ci t e d t h e . . . t h a t r e l e v a n t p ro vi si o n , a s
w e l l a s, S e ct i o n 2 8 o f t h e s a m e a ct .

The one thing that I

m a y n o t n e c e s s a ri l y h a d a t m y d i s p o s a l i s a l s o t h e I P I D
R e g u l a t i o n s b e ca u s e t h e y a l s o d o t a l k t o t h a t m a t t e r.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

Yo u kn o w, I t h i n k m y q u e st i o n w a s a

re l a t i v e l y si m p l e o n e .

I f y o u a r e u n a b l e t o re c a l l , y o u a re

welcome to say that.

I f y o u i f yo u d i d n o t . . . i f yo u h a d a

s p e ci f i c u n d e r st a n d i n g a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e b u t o f c o u r s e ,
then you would say that.
If

yo u

had

an

u n d e r st a n d i n g

that

it

only

became

a p p a r e n t t o y o u l a t e r o n , a s y o u h a v e g o t t e n i n vo l v e d m o r e
Page 36 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
a n d m o r e co u rt c a s e s a r o u n d t h e s e i s su e s t h e n , o f co u r s e ,
you are welcome to say that as well.
T h e o n l y q u e st i o n I a m a s ki n g y o u i s, w a s t h a t y o u r
u n d e r st a n d i n g i n 2 0 1 4 w h e n yo u w e r e h a vi n g i n t e ra c t i o n w i t h
I P I D o n t h e m a t t e r o f t h e R e n d i t i o n d o c ke t ?
M R N H L E K O : I h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t q u e st i o n si r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u st r e s p o n d a g a i n M r N h l e k o so w e

can make progress
10

M R N H L E K O : N o , I re s p o n d e d t o t h a t q u e st i o n C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t w a s y o u r re s p o n s e ?
MR NHLEKO:

T h a t t h e i s s u e o f a s ki n g f o r i n f o r m a t i o n o n

t h e si d e o f I P I D i s a n d w a s i n f o r m e d b y t h e r e l e va n t s e ct i o n
i n t h e I P I D A ct a n d I ci t e d s e ct i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

One second Mr Nhleko.

T h er e w a s a t i m e

y e st e r d a y w h e r e I c o u l d h e a r y o u v e r y cl e a rl y. I d o n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u w e r e c o m i n g cl o s e r t o t h e m i c o r n o t .
MR NHLEKO: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

noise.

I se e t h e a i r c o n i s a l s o m a k i n g s o m e

J a , i f y o u c o m e cl o s e r t o t h e m i c, I t h i n k I c a n h e a r

y o u cl e a rl y. W i l l y o u j u st st a rt . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : A p o l o g i e s C h a i r a n d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON: It is not your fault.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ju st st a rt . . . j u st a n s w e r a g a i n .
Page 37 of 201

What was

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
y o u r r e sp o n s e ?
MR NHLEKO:

And may I also be congratulated by its Chair

f o r l o o ki n g a t h i m m o st o f t h e t i m e , t h i s t i m e a ro u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k t h e r e c o r d w i l l r e f l e ct t h a t yo u a r e

l o o ki n g a t t h e C h a i r t o d a y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s. [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . u n l i ke y e st e r d a y. [ l a u g h s]
10

M R N H L E K O : Ye s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye st e r d a y y o u w e re l o o k i n g a w a y f r o m t h e

C h a i r.
MR NHLEKO:

J a , n o w I k n o w.

A n d I h a d d i ff i c u l t y t o

s w i n g ( ? ) a r o u n d t h e se a t i n g a n d s o o n . T h a n k s, j a .
CHAIRPERSON: No, that is fine.
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I w a s s a yi n g .

q u e st i o n C h a i r.

L o o k, I r e s p o n d e d t o t h i s

T h a t t h i s v e r y sa m e a ct w a s i n e x i st e n ce a t

t h e t i m e a n d S e ct i o n 7 (1 2 ) a n d 2 8 (1 ) o f t h e I P I D A ct , a s w e l l
a s, r e g u l a t i o n . . . I t h i n k i t m u st b e R e g u l a t i o n 1 5 , d e a l s w i t h
20

t h e i s s u e o f i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e s i d e o f I P I D a s re q u e st e d
b y t h e m i n i st e r a s a n e x e cu t i v e a u t h o ri t y.

So I think that

cl a ri f i e s t h a t p a rt i c u l a r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

E ff e ct i v e l y, i f y o u r r e s p o n s e t h a t

t h o se s e ct i o n s t o w h i c h yo u h a ve re f e rr e d i n t h e I P I D A ct
a n d t h e r e g u l a t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 38 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : R e g u l a t i o n 1 5 , ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . e n t i t l e s t h e m i n i st e r t o r e q u e st c e rt a i n

i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : T h e e xe c u t i v e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . e xe c u t i v e d i r e ct o r ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

that

information,

you

sa y,

would

i n cl u d e a d o c k e t o r yo u a re n o t g o i n g t h a t f a r ?
M R N H L E K O : I c o u l d n o t g e t y o u r l a st p a rt .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , I a m s a yi n g , a r e y o u s a yi n g t h a t t h o s e

s e ct i o n s o f t h e I P I D A ct t o w h i c h y o u h a v e j u st r e f e r re d a n d
t h e r e g u l a t i o n , e n t i t l e d y o u a s M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e t o re q u e st
t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e ct o r o f I P I D a n d t h e
i n f o r m a t i o n yo u c o u l d r e q u e st c o u l d i n cl u d e i n a s p e ci f i c
case a docket?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, i t w o u l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

I f I c a n e n q u i r y f r o m y o u t h e vi e w t h a t

y o u h e l d , a n d w e u n d e r st a n d y o u h e l d t h a t vi e w a t t h a t p o i n t
i n t i m e i . e . i n 2 0 1 4 , w a s t h a t a vi e w t h a t y o u h a d c o m e t o o n
y o u r o w n o r h a d y o u s o u g h t l e g a l g u i d a n c e b e f o re a r ri vi n g a t
t h a t c o n cl u si o n ?

I n o t h e r w o r d s, d i d y o u s e e k a n o p i n i o n

f ro m a n y a d v o c a t e , a t t o r n e y o r a l a w y e r?
Page 39 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO: So, how is this relevant Chair?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y, I d i d n o t h e a r t h a t ?
MR

NHLEKO:

No,

I

am

s a yi n g ,

how

is

this

q u e st i o n

re l e v a n t , w h e t h e r I g o t a n o p i n i o n f r o m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R N H L E K O : . . . a p a rt i c u l a r l a w y e r o r s o m e b o d y a n d s o o n ?
How is it relevant?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m a y b e r e l e v a n t i n t h e se n s e t h a t i f y o u

re l i e d o n l e g a l a d vi c e y o u m i g h t n o t b e c ri t i ci s e d f o r i t .
10

M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:
be

c ri t i ci s e d ,

[ l a u g h s]

you

u n d e r st a n d i n g ,

S o t h o s e w h o a d vi s e d y o u , m a y

k n o w.

then

you

But
can

be

if

yo u
asked

it

is

your

own

to

explain

your

u n d e r st a n d i n g .
MR NHLEKO:

H’m.

N o , I . . . i t i s a n i ce e x p l a n a t i o n a n d

i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f . . . o f t h a t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR NHLEKO:
political
20

I a m j u st w o n d e ri n g w h e t h e r, a t t h e l e ve l o f

management,

those

things

are

ever

applicable.

[ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , y o u s e e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: Ja, but ...[intervenes] ‘
CHAIRPERSON:

A ct u a l l y, t h e q u e st i o n m i g h t h e l p y o u M r
Page 40 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
N h l e k o . [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e q u e st i o n m i g h t h e l p yo u b e ca u s e

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y e s. J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

We l l , l e t m e n o w s a y b e c a u s e

o f w h a t . [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o k h a ri i s l a u g h i n g .
10

M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

So I am afraid I am going to ask you to

a n s w e r t h e q u e st i o n .
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

No, no.

I w i l l a n s w e r t h e q u e st i o n .

It is

j u st t h a t i t s o u n d s l i k e t h e C h a i r i s t r yi n g t o sa v e m e s o m e
f u t u r e t r o u b l e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
MR NHLEKO:

B u t n e v e r t h e l e s s , C h a i r, i n t h e m i n i s t r y o f

w h i c h I w a s , y o u k n o w, t h e h e a d , w e h a d – f i r s t l y, y o u h a d
a legal function attached to it, we also had the – I know
20

that I had legal advisers and so on, I think also the Deputy
Minister and so on.

S o , y o u k n o w, y o u w o u l d c e r t a i n l y r e l y

on advice when it comes to matters such as this.

In other

words, legal matters, broadly speaking.
CHAIRPERSON:

Buy the question would be in regard to

this undertaking, was your understanding based on advice?
Page 41 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a t i s t h e a n s w e r, o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

So you had actually taken the trouble

to seek legal counsel on whether you had the power to do
that which you ultimately did do, i.e. to call for the docket
from IPID?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And the opinion said that you could do

exactly what you ultimately did do?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I d i d , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y.

And was that internal or

external counsel that you sought the opinion from, there is
that internal?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , i t i s a n i n t e r n a l f u n c t i o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y.

Now you then called for the

d o c k e t a n d w e a r e t a l k i n g n o w a b o u t i n t h e y e a r 2 0 1 4 . Yo u
called for the docket from IPID, correct?
the letter of 24 November 2014.
20

Referred you to

I d i d s o y e s t e r d a y, d o y o u

recall that?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I d o .

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

And the docket was provided to you.

I think it was.

ADV HULLEY SC:

That is the – it has been the evidence

that the docket that had been provided to you, it was the
Page 42 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
evidence certainly of Mr McBride that the docket that was
provided

to

you

contained

the

22

January

report

but

unsigned and the 18 March report signed and I am talking
now

about

the

report

of

IPID

into

the

rendition

investigation.
MR NHLEKO:

No, that is incorrect, the signed report is

the report of the 19th – no, it is the report of the 22nd which
was then referred and filed with the National Prosecuting
Authority long before Mr McBride assumed the role as
10

Executive Director of IPID.
Now I accept that also the so-called report was also
signed and countersigned by two other individuals as well
which, in itself, also maybe at some point talk about it but
t h e r e p o r t o f t h e 2 2 n d w a s a l r e a d y w i t h t h e N PA f o r a
decision to prosecute or not to prosecute.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o r r y, I a m n o t s u r e i f I a m f o l l o w i n g

you, I am making a specific proposition.

The proposition

that I am making to you is this but …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , I a m a l s o n o t s u r e i f I f o l l o w t h e

point you are making, Mr Nhleko.

As I understand the

q u e s t i o n f r o m M r H u l l e y, s o u g h t t o c o n f i r m t h a t w h a t t h e
Executive Director of IPID said to you included the two
reports.

One - but the one of 22 January was unsigned,

the copy he sent to you but the one for 18 March was
signed.
Page 43 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

Correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

So he sought to establish just that,

whether you have a recollection that what the executive
director gave you included those two reports but the one
for 22 January being unsigned.

Is that something you

r e m e m b e r, i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t ?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I have always had a signed copy

[inaudible – speaking simultaneously]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, y o u h a v e n e v e r h a d a n u n s i g n e d

c o p y.
MR NHLEKO:

T h e 2 2 J a n u a r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And the copy that you had, is it

o n e t h a t c a m e t o y o u f r o m t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, i t i s n o t
o n e t h a t c a m e f r o m t h e N PA o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t .

In other

words, your source was it only the Executive Director?
MR NHLEKO:

No, that was not the source. It was not the

source.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
20

Remember that I made my own enquiries.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

Ye s , j a .

Ye s , C h a i r, o n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i s s u e a n d i t i s

a m a t t e r t h a t w a s t h e r e b e f o r e I c a m e i n a s M i n i s t e r, a n d
so

on,

so

it

was a

matter that

was also

part

of the

institution then because I am not sure, for an example, at
the time when the issue of the report of the 22nd was
Page 44 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
spoken about is the report that is being altered and so on.
I had no idea about the work that was done before
by the Civilian Secretariat, for an example, which led to
IPID

conducting

that

investigation

c o n c l u d e d o n t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y.

which

then

was

So I am saying it is – you

k n o w, t h r o u g h m y o w n e n q u i r i e s , t h a t i s a r e p o r t t h a t I
found.
CHAIRPERSON:

So there is a report that you found when

you came or that you got through your own enquiries.
10

MR NHLEKO:

Right.

CHAIRPERSON:

And that report of 22 January was

signed, was a signed report.
MR NHLEKO:

Is a signed report.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But do you have a recollection

whether the Executive Director did provide you with the two
reports or it is something you cannot remember?
MR NHLEKO:

It was only one report and that was the

report of the 18th.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , o f M a r c h .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

It did not give you…[intervenes]

No, not the …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Of the 18 March?

Not the 22 January one.

Not the 22 January one.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .
Page 45 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

So the 22 January report signed was

given to you by – from other sources but the 18 March
report was given to you by the Executive Director of IPID.
Do I understand that correctly?

O k a y, l e t u s t a k e i t o n e

step at a time.
22 January report, the signed 22 January report
was given to you by some source other than the Executive
Director of IPID.
MR NHLEKO:
10

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Is that right?

Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And can we be specific as to who gave

you the signed 22 January report?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, I instructed members of staff in the

ministry to establish the issue of this report, whether we
h a d i t i n t h e m i n i s t r y a n d s o o n . N o w t h e m i n i s t r y, C h a i r, i s
made up of various individuals and functions in there,
okay?

So if you instruct people in the office, they will go

different whatever ways to try and establish whether is that
20

the kind of a thing that can be obtainable within the
ministry and so it goes. So that is how it came about.
CHAIRPERSON:

In other words, does that mean you

cannot remember who exactly gave you that report?
MR NHLEKO:
I would.

Ye s , I c a n n o t , I m e a n , t h e r e i s n o w a y t h a t

I mean, you give an instruction for people to try
Page 46 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
and find this report. At some point you come back, it is on
your desk, you know? It is that kind of thing.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

HULLEY

because

we

O k a y.

SC:

know

And
that

the

we

are

speaking

Executive

here

Director

of

now
IPID

provided you with the docket and with the signed 18 March
report on the 26 November of 2014.

So what I am asking,

w h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o k n o w, i s w h e n h e p r o v i d e d y o u w i t h
t h a t d o c k e t a n d t h e s i g n e d 2 6 – s o r r y, t h e s i g n e d 1 8 M a r c h
10

report, did you already have the first report which was the
22 January report that had been signed?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I d i d . I d i d .

ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.
And did you – when he gave you, that is

the Executive Director of IPID, gave you – furnished you
with the 18 March report, was that the first time you laid
your hands on the 18 March report or did you have it from
o t h e r s o u r c e s a l r e a d y, t h e 1 8 M a r c h o n e ?
MR NHLEKO:
20

Ye s , i t i s p o s s i b l e , i t i s p o s s i b l e .

But,

r e m e m b e r, C h a i r, t h a t t h e a l l e g a t i o n , a s i t w e r e , s a i d t h e r e
was this report which makes different recommendations
from the report of the 22nd and so on and that needed – of
course, needed to do some work around it.

So it is very

p r o b a b l e t h a t , y o u k n o w, t h a t w a s t h e f i r s t t i m e I s a w i t
because I sat with the two reports then having got to look
Page 47 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
at

what

were

the

said

differences

as

alleged,

for

an

e x a m p l e . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But are you saying it is very probable

that by the time the Executive Director of IPID gave you
the 18 March report you already had one or are saying it is
very probable that it was the first time that you were laying
your hands on the 18 March report when he gave you
…[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ja, I am saying it is probable that it was

the first time I laid …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

My hands on …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u r h a n d s o n i t .

The 18 March report.

Ye s , t h e 1 8 M a r c h r e p o r t .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e .
C h a i r, c o u l d I – I t h i n k t h e r e i s a f a m o u s

thing these days that is called a comfort break.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
20

Well, it is the right time.

It is a code word for trying to do something

else.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, it is the right time, we normally take

a break at quarter past eleven and it is quarter past
eleven.

We will take the tea adjournment and we will

resume at half past eleven.
MR NHLEKO:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
Page 48 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s c o n t i n u e . Yo u r m i c , M r H u l l e y ?

ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
Mr Nhleko...

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

There is a light next to you, in the event

it is dark and you want to read something, I hope it is
working, it is there specifically for the witness should you
10

need it because I have seen in the past that sometimes it
can be quite dark and sometimes the witness cannot see
when they want to read. So I just want to mention that it is
available to you.
MR NHLEKO:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r, b u t i t i s n o t

working. As and when it works I will do what Moses said in
G e n e s i s o f t h e B i b l e . I w i l l i n f o r m t h e C h a i r a c c o r d i n g l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, maybe during lunch break they will

have a look and see why it is not working.

O k a y, t h a n k

you. Mr Hulley?
20

ADV

HULLEY

SC:

Thank

you,

Mr

C h a i r.

So

if

I

u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, M r N h l e k o , o n t h e 2 6 N o v e m b e r o f
2014 you would at that stage have had two reports, both
signed. The first report dated 22 January 2014, the second
report dated 18 March 2014.

One supplied to you by your

source that you are not sure of at the moment but within
Page 49 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
your structures within the SAPS.

The second supplied to

you by IPID directly by Mr McBride.

Do I understand that

correctly?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I t h i n k w e – t h a t i s w h a t w e s p o k e t o .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now on the 6 December of 2014 you

gave Mr Dramat a notice of intention to suspend him and
you ultimately …[intervenes]
ADV MOKHARI SC:

C a n w e c o r r e c t t h e d a t e , C h a i r, i t i s

t h e 9 D e c e m b e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Ye s .

It is actually recorded in the

judgment of Helen Suzman Foundation v The Minister of
Police. We will hand it up and then it is very helpful..
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u , M r M o k h a r i

ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you, Mr Mokhari. Thank you, Mr

C h a i r. A t a n y r a t e y o u u l t i m a t e l y s u s p e n d e d h i m o n t h e 2 3
December of 2014, correct?
MR NHLEKO:

I am not sure of the date but it was in

D e c e m b e r, y e s .
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now let us just go back because

according to Mr Khuba, his testimony was – and he filed an
affidavit to this effect, that on the 6 December of 2014 he
was

approached

by

General

Berning

Ntlemeza

who

informed him that he should watch the news because there
was going to be a hit on Dramat.
Page 50 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
Now if I understand your testimony correct, you are
disputing the fact that you would have communicated that
information to Mr Ntlemeza, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:
C h a i r.

I just wander as to why would I do that,

I supervised General Dramat directly and that is

precisely it.

So as to where this thing comes from about

General Ntlemeza who then engages with Khuba and they
talk about whatever they talk about, I just thought no, I will
c o m e i n t o t h a t r e a l l y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, you see, Mr Khuba gave evidence

to the effect that he was told by General Ntlem eza exactly
what Mr Hulley says, as I recall and that something then
c a m e u p i n - i s i t o n t e l e v i s i o n , M r H u l l e y, o r n o t y e t ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Sorry?

He later found out that in fact

– it was on television.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t M r D r a m a t – s o r r y, G e n e r a l

Dramat, had been – in fact been suspended.

That was the

23 December and that he has been placed with General
20

Berning Ntlemeza.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I t h i n k t h e q u e s t i o n a r i s e s f r o m t h e

fact that if the Minister of Police was the one vested with
the power to suspend General Dramat…
MR NHLEKO:

Alright.

CHAIRPERSON:

…certainly the Minister of Police is the
Page 51 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
one who knows once he has made a decision that he is
going to suspend General Dramat.
tells

Mr

Khuba

that

something

Now if somebody else
is

going

to

happen

to

General Dramat – I do not know whether I said we must
watch on television or whatever – and something does
happen and what happens is the suspension of Mr Dramat.
It seems to me that it is legitimate for one to say but in all
probability there are very few people who may have known
that the Minister is going to make this decision or had
10

made this decision until it was announced.
So if it not the Minister who told this person, who
could it be?

So I think that is the angle and I think Mr

Hulley is seeking to get confirmation from you that your
position is that you did not tell General Ntlemeza.

O r, i f

there was a reason for you to tell him, yes, you did tell him
and

this

was

the

reason.

That

is

what

he

seeks

to

establish.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:
20

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
N o , l o o k , C h a i r, I a b s o l u t e l y h a v e n o

reason to speak to another employee about the fate of
another employee, really I do not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So

you

information with Ntlemeza.
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I d i d n o t . Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.
Page 52 of 201

did

not

share

that

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

Now can exclude the possibility that

General Ntlemeza had simply guessed this because he was
already

communicating

that

to

Mr

Khuba

on

the

6

December and as it so happened, on the 23 December
when General Dramat was removed, who was he replaced
with?
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

I a m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h a t ?
When General Dramat was removed,

who was his replacement, acting replacement?
10

MR NHLEKO:

I t w a s G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ve r y w e l l .

So the possibility of this

being a pure coincidence seems highly unlikely that other
than on the explanation that General Ntlemeza must have
known that this was going to happen, would that be fair to
say?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , i t i s n o t f a i r t o s a y.

In fact, I think it is

unfair speculation.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So at the time on the 6 December this

apparently – and I thought I had understood that the notice
20

calling upon General Dramat to give reasons why he should
not be suspended, I understood that that happened on the
6th but apparently I am wrong about that and in fact it only
happened

on

the

9th.

But

when

you

invited

General

N t l e m e z a – s o r r y, G e n e r a l D r a m a t , t o g i v e r e a s o n s w h y h e
should not be suspended was it your intention to ignore
Page 53 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
those

reasons

if

he

in

fact

made

representations

or

provided you with reasons?
MR NHLEKO:

C h a i r, I r e s p e c t d u e p r o c e s s e s a n d I a m

very particular about them to an extent that those who care
to

tell

you

will

tell

you

that

I

have

always

in

my

professional function and duties wherever I have been
assigned to, avoided to have preconceived ideas about
what needs to happen to a person who allegedly has
committed a wrongdoing and so on.
10

So when they say to you, as an employee, these are
the allegations – in fact generally in the public service we
call it a contemplation letter – that these things have been
brought

to

my

attention

and

because

they

have

been

brought to my attention, give me the reasons why I should
not pursue this particular matter or matters particularly in
relation to whatever the specific issues would be, okay?
So I do not – in fact I am even much better than
l a w y e r s , I t h i n k , i t i s a – y o u w o u l d k n o w t h i s , C h a i r,
because of your background as well in labour matters, that
20

it is a common thing for lawyers to approach you and say
yes, you are the employer and you want us to assist you in
this particular matter but what do you want?
And I always tell them look, all I want is the fair
p r o c e s s i n g o f t h e s p e c i f i c s o r t o f m a t t e r, s o d o n o t a s k m e
about whether my intentions are to get rid of this person or
Page 54 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
any other thing about this particular individual because the
issue is what wrongdoing has been committed and what is
it

that

needs

wrongdoing.

to

be

done

That is it.

to

rectify

that

particular

And fair processes are critical,

extremely critical.
CHAIRPERSON:

So I guess the short answer is you

would not have had any intention to ignore representations
if representations were made by General Dramat.
MR NHLEKO:
10

E x a c t l y, e x a c t l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And do you recall whether General

Dramat did in fact make representations to you?
MR NHLEKO:

I think he must have because I think I

eventually

wrote

then

back

to

him

in

interaction that must have taken place.

relation

to

an

Of course, you

would appreciate that I am no longer in government and
therefore the question of pieces of correspondence and so
on and documentation will be problematic but I think he
must have.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now on the 23 December you in fact

suspended General Dramat, you replaced him with General
Ntlemeza but …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
probably

in

the

Probably
judgment

–

I

Helen

probably that is covered.
Page 55 of 201

am

s o r r y,

Suzman

Mr

H u l l e y,

Foundation,

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV MOKHARI SC:

A c t u a l l y, t h e j u d g m e n t s e t o u t t h e

entire history in terms of that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

So maybe I can even make the copy

available and maybe…
ADV HULLEY SC:
ADV

MOKHARI

It should be in the bundle.

SC:

No,

I

mean,

of

Helen

Suzman

F o u n d a t i o n . O h , i t i s i n t h e b u n d l e . O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I expected it to …[intervenes]

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e m a d e c o p i e s , a n y w a y.
There is one at page 273 for Helen

Suzman Foundation, by Prinsloo J.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t o n e .

J a , o k a y.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

So that judgment, it will, I mean

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

It has got the …[intervenes]

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Prinsloo J reproduced even the

contents of the notice and all those thing, ja.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . Ye s , y e s . T h a n k y o u , M r M o k h a r i .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you.
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

a b i t l a t e r, M r C h a i r.

I will look into it

So, Mr Nhleko, obviously you would

have had a discussion with Mr – or with General Ntlemeza
before the date on which you suspended General Dramat,
Page 56 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
correct?
MR NHLEKO:

I would have had discussions with him?

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

About what?

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:
about

taking

Ye s .

About him taking over the acting role.

But how would I talk to General Ntlemeza
over the

acting

General Dramat is occupying?

role

in

a

position

How do I do that?

where
I would

make a case even if it is yourself, how would you do it?
10

Somebody is occupying a position and you are talking to
somebody about occupying that position.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , l e t u s – I t h i n k l e t u s h e a r t h e s h o r t

a n s w e r, M r N h l e k o , a n d I t h i n k t h e s h o r t a n s w e r m i g h t b e
yes, I did speak to him or no, I did not speak to him and I
think from what you are saying you mean you did not speak
to him, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

It is correct but I am trying to establish the

logical sense here, that you have somebody occupying a
position and then it alleged or expected that you would
20

speak to somebody else about occupying that position.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , b u t , y o u k n o w, s o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
It defeats the whole of your procedural

fairness as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

It may but we will make better progress

if you are able to just say I did or I did not, but for what it
Page 57 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
is worth, if I can say this, subject to the question of the
timeframes,

I

can

imagine

that

somebody

who

contemplates suspending a certain person from his or her
job, particularly a crucial job, may prior to actually making
the decision to suspend that person start thinking about
who will I put in if I do actually suspend this person and
may

begin

to

talk

to

possible

candidates

without

necessarily him saying you will be replacing because no
decision has been made but wanting to make sure that they
10

do not suspend somebody who may be in a crucial position
and only after that start thinking who will replace them, so
– but I am just saying I can imagine that kind of situation
but I think your answer is you did not speak to him and in
your view there would have been no justification to speak
to him at that time because Mr Dramat was still in the
position.
MR NHLEKO:

But could I come into exactly just this

example you just made, Honourable Chair?

When you

contemplate, it is exactly that, you are contemplating, you
20

would

not

have

taken

a

decision

to

actually

put

this

particular employee on suspension.
So what – the whole question of what ultimately
happens hinges on the required submissions from the side
of the employee about whatever the issues are so that that
could also assist you to be able to weigh whether the
Page 58 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
reasons

are

weighty

enough

and

not

so

enough

therefore not put that person on suspension, okay?
there

is

no

question

of

you

therefore

need

to

go

to
So
to

s o m e b o d y e l s e b e f o r e , y o u k n o w, b e f o r e y o u a r e a c t u a l l y
activated suspension and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .
Now – but also the second part of your

example, and this is where I want to come in, the question
of talking comes very late.
10

R e m e m b e r, t h e s e a r e y o u r

employees and all their personal records are with you.
So we are able to assess strengths, weaknesses
and whatever it is that you are looking at based on what
you have before you, okay?

And then it is then that you

would then decide that in fact employee x that can also fill
the shoes in the meantime and so on, okay?
Now the – I think the advantage with an institution
such as the police, it is an order-based institution. So I do
not want to go any further but …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Basically, what you mean, you know

which employees you have, you can order them to say
come tomorrow, you report there.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, I am making this distinction, Chair,

because you would appreciate that in the ordinary sort of
industrial

life

there

could

be

a

degree

of

variances

opposed to an order-based kind of institution and so on,
Page 59 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
you know?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
I mean, at least my experience tells me

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ve r y w e l l .

So then would it be fair to

s a y, g i v e n y o u r a n s w e r, w o u l d i t b e f a i r t o s a y t h a t p r i o r t o
making

the

appointment

of

General

–

the

acting

appointment of General Ntlemeza you did not consult with
10

him and you did not consult with anybody else that was
part of the senior management at the SAPS?
MR NHLEKO:

I would not be sure about the entire sort of

p r o c e s s e s a n d s o o n b u t , y o u k n o w, I k n o w t h a t – p u t i t
t h i s w a y, i n m y – t h e f i r s t t i m e I s a w h i m b a s i c a l l y, G e n e r a l
Ntlemeza, that is, was when I was doing provincial visits. I
think

he

was

Limpopo, okay?

the

Deputy

Provincial

Commissioner

in

That was the first time I came across him

a n d i t w a s , o f c o u r s e , y o u k n o w, p a r t o f t h e m i n i s t e r i a l
programme as alluded to earlier on, for instance, in terms
20

of when I came in and needed to understand the workings
of the portfolio and so on and basically that was it at that
time.
So I – the question or who else I must have spoken
to,

for

an

example

during

the

whatever

period,

it

is

possible that I spoke to a number of individuals within the
Page 60 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
police service themselves about maybe few individuals that
I a l s o w a n t e d t o c o n s i d e r, t h a t i s n o w a t t h e p o i n t o f t h e
submissions having been received from General Dramat
and

it

became

clear

that

there

was

further

work

that

needed to be done and therefore it was necessary to put
him on suspension.
CHAIRPERSON:

Would you say that that discussion that

you say may have happened would have happened at a
time when in your own mind you had made up your mind
10

that

you

were

going

to

suspend

him,

that

is

General

Dramat, because you had studied his representations.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , w h e n i t b e c a m e a p p a r e n t l y c l e a r a s i t

would turn out, ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
was

also

Ye s .

But I am certain that given the fact that he

Provincial

C o m m i s s i o n e r,

Deputy

Provincial

Commissioner at that time, now the reporting lines are very
clear there.

It is the National Commissioner responsible

for so and so, I would have had an engagement with the
20

National Commissioner to then say…
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

Would you have shared the information

that you were going to suspend General Dramat with the
National Commissioner at that stage and if yes, who else
Page 61 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
do you think you would have shared that information before
General Dramat was told?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, again, the sequence of events I may

not necessarily be quite sharp on at this stage.
be quite sharp on at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
dictated

that,

Ja.
But institutional arrangement would have

you

k n o w,

you

speak

with

the

National

Administrator of the Police.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

J a , N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.

T h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, y e s . A n d , y o u

k n o w, i n r e l a t i o n t o – n o w w h a t I w o u l d n o t k n o w, I c a n n o t
recall whether I really spoke to her at the time of the
contemplation or post-contemplation but – because we had
regular

sort

of

interactions

and

engagements

and

structured kind of meetings, it is very possible that I spoke
to her about what had transpired and been brought to my
attention

and

therefore,

it

necessitated

that

something

needed to be done about the issues as identified at the
20

time.
CHAIRPERSON:

Apart from the National Commissioner

would there have been somebody else within the SAPS
with whom you would have shared the information that
either you had decided to suspend General Dramat or you
were looking at that possibility?
Page 62 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

No, I would not have done that.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u w o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e t h a t ?

No, I would not have done that.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
As again it goes back to the point that I

said you cannot engage with another employee about the
fate of another one.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

It is completely wrong.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR NHLEKO:

In fact, it then constitutes your whole

procedurally fairness kind of respect and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

So it is wrong.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

It would not have happened.

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:

Now

apart

from

the

National

Commissioner would you have shared that information with
anybody else within the executive of cabinet, government,
20

prior to informing General Dramat or not?
MR

NHLEKO:

Not

at

an

executive

level,

understanding you.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Well, I am talking about cabinet.

Yo u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t c a b i n e t ?

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.
Page 63 of 201

if

I

am

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

Then I would

go to cabinet and say

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, either cabinet as in the body of

some individual or individuals in the cabinet including the
President.
MR NHLEKO:

O h , o k a y, o k a y. S o I t h i n k i n a n u t s h e l l y o u

want to know whether did I advise the head of state about
t h e – o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Either the head of state or any other

colleague within the cabinet.
MR NHLEKO:

No, it would not have been any other

colleague, it would have been the head of state.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

The head of state?

Ye s a n d b r i e f i n g h i m a b o u t t h e s e i s s u e s a s

t h e y c a m e u p a n d s o b e c a u s e i t w o u l d n o t b e f a i r, f o r
instance, to a President to hear from the media about (a)
the contemplation letter being dispatched to a high police
o f f i c i a l o r e v e n f o r t h a t m a t t e r, e v e n t u a l l y, s u s p e n s i o n a n d
so on.
20

So it becomes important to then brief the head of

state about this is what I have established and this is what
the law says and therefore this is what I am required to do.
CHAIRPERSON:

So would be fair to say the only people

that

the

you

decision

shared
which

you

information
had

either

with
made

in

terms

but

of

the

maybe

not

necessarily com municated yet to General Dramat or that
Page 64 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
you

were

contemplating

making

Commissioner and the head of state?

with

the

National

Would it be fair that

is the position?
MR NHLEKO:

I just could not get the first part of – would

it be fair to say what?
CHAIRPERSON:
saying

the

Or would it would be fair to say you are

only

people

with

whom

you

shared

the

information, either that you had already made the decision
to suspend General Dramat even though might not have
10

communicated

to

him

at

that

stage

or

that

you

were

contemplating making a decision to suspend him, that the
only people you shared this information with were the head
of state and the National Com missioner? Would it be fair to
say those were the people?
MR NHLEKO:

I think that would be a fair assumption.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:
having

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

communicated

that

information

N o w, o f c o u r s e ,
to

the

National

Commissioner and having communicated that information
20

through to the head of state, one of the first questions that
either one of those two would have asked you was, who are
you going to replace the – who are you going to put into
the acting position as the head of the DPCI?

Would that

be fair to say?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I am not sure whether they did that.
Page 65 of 201

I

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
really

cannot

recall

whether

anybody

asked

me

that

question but with regards to the National Commissioner
indeed I think I did share views with her about, you know –
and she also made some suggestions of either individuals
t h a t w e c o u l d c o n s i d e r.

Now that is at a point when, you

k n o w, I h a v e e v e n t u a l l y h a d t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n a b o u t
suspension, okay? Ja, it …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
National
10

So are you saying that with regard to the

Commissioner you did

tell her who

you were

thinking of as a temporary replacement for General Dramat
during the suspension and in your discussion the National
Commissioner mentioned other possible names you could
think of. Is that what you are saying?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I did.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

But you are saying that the

head of state did not ask you about who would replace
General Dramat during the suspension?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I do not recall him asking me as to

…[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

… o k a y, s o w h o a r e y o u g o i n g t o p l a c e t h e r e

for the replacement.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
when

you

O k a y, a l r i g h t . M r H u l l e y ?
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

approached

the

National

Page 66 of 201

So presumably

Commissioner

you

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
already had in mind one or more people.

She proposed

additional people and the two of your sat and discussed
which was the best person to put into that position.

Would

that be fair?
MR NHLEKO:

M a y b e I t h i n k i t h a p p e n e d t h a t w a y, y e s .

ADV HULLEY SC:
with

a

few

Now you would obviously have come

suggestions

yourself

or

was

it

only

one

suggestion?
MR NHLEKO:
10

I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a f e w, I t h i n k .

Could

h a v e b e e n a f e w, y e s . P r o b a b l y t w o o r t h r e e o f t h o s e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

And you say that as the Ministry was

t h e e m p l o y e r, I t h i n k y o u s a i d , o f t h e m e m b e r s , y o u h a v e
got access to their personnel files.

Do I understand that

correctly?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I c o u l d h a v e a c c e s s t o p e r s o n n e l f i l e s

t h r o u g h t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, o f c o u r s e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

20

So …[intervenes]

MR NHLEKO:

So I am saying I could have access to

personnel

and

files

profiles

of

individuals

through

the

N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I see. So what you are saying is that if

you wished to have, to access a particular personnel file,
you

would

–

you

could

do

it

through

the

National

Commissioner but you do not have direct access to it
within your office or within your ministry?
Page 67 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

No, I do not. I do not.

ADV HULLEY SC:

So you would have obviously have

called for these personnel files in respect of the people
that you had in mind, beforehand, in other words, before
meeting with the National Commissioner?
MR NHLEKO:

I’m not sure whether – I think in the

meeting situation yes, because you’d have, I think, at
initial stages you’d have an open meeting about – or
discussion, sorry about a few individuals, names okay but
10

a National Commissioner is an administrator who will then
go back and look at the actual profiles and the skills, sort
of levels and sets of people then take it on from there.
ADV HULLEY SC:
2015

because

N o w, m o v i n g f o r w a r d i n t o J a n u a r y o f
these

events

happened

on

the

23rd…[intervenes].
MR NHLEKO:

Come again you said in 2000 and what?

ADV HULLEY SC:

Into January of 2015 things that we’ve

been speaking about thus far all took place in December of
2014, in other words the suspension of General Dramat
20

and the acting appointment of General Ntlemeza, those
took place in 2014.

N o w, i n 2 0 1 5 w e k n o w t h a t y o u , f r o m

your testimony that you gave here – we know that you
never approached Mr Robert McBride to discuss with him,
the fact that he had provided you with a report of which he
was one of the signatories, that being the 18th March
Page 68 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
report

and

you

had

these

two

reports

but

you

never

discussed, with Mr Robert McBride why the second – how
the second report came about, that was your testimony
y e s t e r d a y i f I u n d e r s t o o d c o r r e c t l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on a second, you were dealing

with reports earlier and then I thought you moved to the
issue of the suspension of General Dram at and that’s why
we were talking about what Mr Khuba said, he was told by
Mr Ntlemeza, you now refer to the reports, is that because
10

you’re moving back to the reports or is it still under the
issue of the suspension?
ADV HULLEY SC:
suspension

but

I’m moving – I may come back to the
I’m

moving

n o w,

chronologically

into

J a n u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

well

you

might

be

moving

chronologically in terms of the dates and events but I was
thinking you were following themes.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

Are

you

going

to

come

back

to

the

suspension or are you done – to the suspension of General
Dramat or are you done with it?
ADV HULLEY SC:

We may come back to it at a later

stage depending on how we deal with certain other issues.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t , p r o c e e d .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Thanks, now – so you’ve got these
Page 69 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
reports which you already had as far back as November –
26th of November 2014, you – we move not into January of
2015.

What do you decide, you haven’t consulted Robert

McBride who was the head of IPID, in fact you haven’t
consulted
reports?

IPID
Yo u

at

all

start

about

the

considering

existence
the

of

the

possibility

of

two
an

investigation and appointing a private firm to investigate
the issue, is that correct, we’re in January of 2015?
MR NHLEKO:
10

Look, I think you may be incorrect in

respect of two things.

The first one you say – I think

earlier on you alluded to yesterday and I think, even this
morning, you alluded to pieces of correspondence and
exchange between myself and Mr Robert McBride.
and

of

course

–

now

I’m

dealing

precisely

Now –

with

that

question because in your formulation you are then saying I
did not speak to him or consult with him or something like
t h a t . N o w, s o w h a t d o y o u d e f i n e , h o w d o y o u d e f i n e t h e s e
pieces of correspondence between him and m yself, that’s
one.
20

The second thing is that you are faced with a

situation here where allegations of the existence of the two
reports are made and senior individuals in the institution
are implicated in the alteration of the report of the 22nd to
produce the report of the 18th of March.

Now – and I think

we need to be alive to this thing that we are then talking
about an institution whose image then, is somewhat tainted
Page 70 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
but also the issues of integrity become a vocal point here,
in a sense.

So – and linking that, this issue that we have

spoken to, linking that to an earlier decision that I had
t a k e n , C h a i r, t o p r o c e s s e x a c t l y t h o s e i s s u e s , h o w c o m e
we have, on that situation – now the situation is in twofold,
do you have a report that recommends criminal prosecution
for an example but do you have another allegation and/or
report which, in a sense says, that report that you are
referring to, has been altered
10

divided

into

misconduct

two

when

around

that

you

and that also
talk

because

about
then

an

you

could be
employee
have

your

employee who is alleged to have tampered with evidence
and so on or a report.

So, you therefore, need to look into

the institutional arrangements insofar as processing that
particular

matter

is

concerned.

But

also,

by

further

extension is that you also have possible, sort of, criminally
issues arising out of that employee misconduct you know
and so it goes.

So, I thought let me just respond in this

particular way to try and clarify this particular point that Mr
20

Hulley has been pushing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u r p l a n i s , M r H u l l e y,
you may have a certain plan but I want us to get into the
meat of this issue of the reports.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I do.

CHAIRPERSON:

Let’s get to the m eat of that report
Page 71 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
because I’ve been waiting that we get to it, let’s get there,
let’s deal with it and then move on to som ething else.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

N o w, t h e t w o

reports…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe let me just say this, and for me

the meat of that issue encompasses, among other things,
the question of what was the nature of the alterations,

10

alleged

alterations,

properly

be

called

were

they

alterations?

alterations,
Wa s

IPID

can

they

entitled

to

provide the report of the 18th of March, were they entitled
to provide such a report, if so, under what circumstances?
W e r e t h e y e n t i t l e d t o s a y, w e l l , t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g w e a r e
not happy with, with the earlier report, here is our latest
report, this is the one we want you to look at, you know?
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
Were there – was there a proper basis

for the Minister to seek an investigation of this issue by
Werksm ans and then of Course – and Mr July will come
later this week, the question of the recommendations that
20

Werksm ans

gave

to

the

Minister

whether

there

was

a

proper basis for it was there a proper basis for those
recommendations, could it be that there was some other
agenda because I think one or more of the IPID witnesses
may have suggested that there was something more than
just genuine investigation of issues and that the idea was
Page 72 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
to get rid of some of them. So, I think, let’s get to that.
ADV HULLEY SC:
decided,

Mr

Nhleko

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
to

hand

the

N o w, w h e n y o u
matter

over

for

investigation to an external firm of attorneys, at that point
in time you had the two reports, one dated 22 January
2014, one dated 18 March 2014.

At that point in time you

believed that there were alterations that had been done to
the one report in – the alterations from the first report
which rise to a final product which was the 18 March
10

report, is that – do I understand that correctly?
MR NHLEKO:

T h e s t a r t i n g p o i n t i s a t t w o l e v e l s , C h a i r.

The starting point is why do you have two reports, so which
is which between the two, that’s your starting point.

The

second area of that starting point is why these two reports
have got two sets of recommendations that are completely
the

opposite,

sort

of

o k a y.

So,

you

have

the

…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: Conflicting recommendation.
MR NHLEKO:
20

Conflicting recommendations yes and it’s

from the one institute, one and the same institution and the
common

denominator

is

a

Chief

Investigator

who

also

appears in the first report but also appears in this other
report with a different set of recommendations and the
q u e s t i o n i s w h y o k a y, s o y o u ’ l l s t a r t t h e r e f i r s t .

N o w, I

think I’d spoken to, what I think I referred to as, allegedly
Page 73 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
sort of, employee misconduct, sort of.

Let me put it in

simpler terms, maybe suspicions of, either an employee
h a s , y o u k n o w.

Now – so you do need to get to the bottom

of that issue but because, essentially the matter here –
and I think that’s – it’s just there have been a number of
misconceptions and misinterpretations of about this thing
at many different levels but this issue of the two reports
and the involvement of Mr McBride, Mr Khuba, Mr Sesoko
a n d s o o n , i t ’ s a b o u t e m p l o y e r, e m p l o y e e r e l a t i o n s , t h a t ’ s
10

w h a t i t i s a n d t h e e m p l o y e r, i n t h i s i n s t a n c e , t h e M i n i s t e r o f
Police there had a duty to then try and ascertain what
e x a c t l y t r a n s p i r e d i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i n s t a n c e o k a y.
So even if you were to go outside and look for
assistance you will need a specific, sort of – my English is
running out, where there’s a dedicated sort of assistance.
In

other

words,

you’ll

be

looking

for

a

particular

and

s p e c i f i c c o m p e t e n c y, i f I m a y p u t i t t h a t w a y. S o , f o r
instance if you have a lawyer called Zondo somewhere
okay and he’s a labour specialist and so forth, you are
20

likely to go that route as opposed to a Mr Hulley who’s a
c r i m i n a l l a w y e r, I ’ m j u s t m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e .

So, you

would have, in a sense, to also define, sort of, some
scoping of sorts in terms of what kind of competency are
you looking at to assist you in matters such as this and so
forth.

S o – a n d r e m e m b e r, h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, w e h a d s a i d ,
Page 74 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
when we started on this issue because I think the issue of
– let me try and – I suspect you nearly said something
a b o u t m y m i c , C h a i r, s o t h a t ’ s w h y I ’ m d r a w i n g i t c l o s e r.
N o w, I t h i n k w h e n w e s t a r t e d – y o u k n o w t h e i s s u e o f
Werksm ans should not be seen only in the context of
Werksm ans as a stand-alone

out there.

Yo u

have to

understand the process, processes as a reference group,
producing a particular set of reports and then from there,
you then evaluate, yes you have these reports but what
10

else do you need in order to take an informed decision
about this particular matters.

So – and that exercise was

entirely located within the civilian Secretariat of Police to
then say look, there’s these issues and these matters
institutionally look at how these matters are to be dealt
with so that we have – we needed to have some absolute
clarity about what was the actual state of things around
this particular issue of the renditions.
So, it should then be understood in that context that
even the issue of Werksm ans itself cannot be separated
20

from the initial work that started off with the appointment of
the reference group and it then developed further in terms
of, we wanted to have much more clarity on it.

We then

s a i d , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, t h a t w e n e e d e d t o k n o w w h o a n d
under what circumstances was the original report of the
22nd of January altered and how the second report came
Page 75 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
about, so that’s the starting point. So, where did this thing
come from and so on, now – and I think I’ve alluded to this
t h i n g , y o u a l s o h a v e , y o u k n o w, t h e C h i e f I n v e s t i g a t o r
appears in both reports.

T h e s e c o n d a r e a i s w h e t h e r, b y

so doing, in other words, alterations does it constitute
misconduct or any offence and if so by whom.

N o w, y o u ’ d

a l s o u n d e r s t a n d t h i s , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, e v e n f r o m a – t h e
L a b o u r L a w, l e t m e n o t s a y L a b o u r L a w b u t f r o m s o r t o f
relations
10

practice

r e a l l y,

an

employee

–

one

of

the

considerations when you deal with disciplinary matters,
that employee should be, one fundamental question should
be whether he or she was in the know or is in the know of
an

existing

policy

for

an

example

pertaining

to

a

transgression or alleged transgression and so forth and
that’s why this issue became im portant.
whether

any

misconduct

or

offence

The question of

would

have

been

conducted by somebody and if so, who’s that particular
person.
The
20

third

area

is

whether

there’s

prime

facie

evidence of misconduct and criminal liability by Lieutenant
General Dramat for an example, Major General Sibiya and
any other officers mentioned in the original report.

N o w,

again, is the question of the original report which made
specific recommendations with regards to these specific
individuals.

The fourth area, the circumstances under
Page 76 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
which the report and the docket handed in the National
Prosecuting Authority and what happened to the docket
o n c e – w h i c h w a s i n t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e N PA .

N o w, t h e

prosecutors in the form of, I think, Advocate Mosing and
Moeletsi made statements in regard to how the issue of the
d o c k e t w a s h a n d l e d b y t h e m a t t h e N PA a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e
is to a series of internal communication within the National
Prosecuting Authority in trying to clarify this issue of the
report of the 22nd and allegedly the second report which is
10

the 18th – the report of the 18th of March, the last area.
We also needed to establish whether any other
matter that would come to the attention of people assigned
to the investigation would be relevant to conclusions and
findings.

Sometimes

when

you

have

a

scope

for

an

investigation you start somewhere but somewhere down the
line you begin to discover other things that were not known
at the time when scoping was being done and so on and so
on.

I think this point really talks to that issue and that’s

how the issue of the appointment of Werksm ans comes in.
20

So,

I

agree

with

you,

honourable

C h a i r,

that

between

yesterday and today there’s a lot of other things that we
said and spoke about but we’ve really been skating on the
periphery here.

The issue, both before this Commission

and the South African public is, is it true that there were
two reports, if so what’s the difference between these two
Page 77 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
reports and thirdly what is it that was done about it and
what it is that is to be done about that because it’s a
matter that remains hanging and outstanding, honourable
C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I would imagine that if somebody who

reports to me gave me a report on a certain subject or
made a report available to me on a certain subject, call it a
first report if you want to and then later gave me another
report on the same subject I would imagine that the first
10

question that would arise with me is, does this second
report replace the first report, in other words, can I throw
t h e f i r s t o n e a w a y, i s t h i s y o u r r e p o r t t o m e , t h e l a t e s t a n d
if he says, yes, the latest is my report to you, throw away
that other one then then I would throw it away and look at
t h i s o n e b u t i f I h a v e r e a d t h e f i r s t o n e , I m a y s a y, l e t m e
not throw it away as yet let me read the second one and
then take it from there and if there’s a need for any
clarification they would arise from there.

Why didn’t you

regard the second report, and when I say second report, I
20

refer to the one of the 18th of March, as the report that the
IPID intended to be their report and no longer the first one,
why did you not regard the second report as the report
they intended as their final report to you or actual report to
you because otherwise why would it be necessary to have
two reports?

So, wasn’t the second one meant to replace
Page 78 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
the first one?
MR NHLEKO:
in two ways.

C h a i r, I w i l l a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n , p e r h a p s
Maybe let’s start with the last area, with the

why – the last question from the Chair…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

The last part of the question ja.
Ye s , w h y I c o u l d n ’ t c o n s i d e r i t a s – t h e

s e c o n d r e p o r t a s t h e f i n a l a n d w h a t e v e r. N o w, t h e q u e s t i o n
is, what happens to the first one or what happened to it
because this very same one – and by the way convention
10

h a s i t , C h a i r, t h a t a n y w h e r e i n t h e w o r l d , i f y o u p r o d u c e a
report at some point and you feel

there are things that I

would have to do whatever about and so on, maybe change
or alter and so it goes, the first point of reference is to
also state that we are nullifying the first one, that’s the
first point.

Now in this particular instance the legislative

a n d i n s t i t u t i o n a l a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n I P I D a n d t h e N PA
says,

if

IPID

is

investigating

–

conducting

a

criminal

i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h e N PA w o u l d a s s i s t t h e m w i t h p r o s e c u t o r s
o r a p r o s e c u t o r o k a y.
20

Now – so in other words, if you’re

then producing another report you must still pull in those
p a r t i c u l a r p r o s e c u t o r s a n d s a y, t h e r e ’ s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g
with this report and whatever it is that you consider to be
wrong or need updating or whatever the case is so that
t h e y, t h e m s e l v e s , w o u l d a l s o b e p a r t o f a c o n s u l t e d s o r t o f
arrangement and so on.

N o w, t h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n s o w e

Page 79 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
keep – up until today we keep on referring to two reports
precisely because within the possession of the National
P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y, t h e y h a v e t h e r e p o r t o f t h e 2 2 n d a n d
then another report that then emerged later and so it goes.
So, that’s m y response to the second part of your question
a n d I t h i n k t h e f i r s t p a r t o f y o u r q u e s t i o n , C h a i r, I t h i n k I ’ v e
alluded

to

this

particular

point

you’ve

already

had

allegations against this institution, now you therefore also
n e e d e d t o , a s a n e m p l o y e r, y o u a l s o n e e d e d t o e m b a r k o n
10

a particular exercise to establish the veracity of these
particular allegations and precisely because you are not in
a s c o m p e t e n t a s y o u c o u l d b e i n t e r m s o f , y o u k n o w, j u s t
the

finer

details

around

a

particular

issues

of

investigation…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Please don’t forget exactly the point you

want to make but I just want to make sure I follow it.
Which allegations are you talking about?
MR NHLEKO:

The allegations of the two reports.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

A nd the different sets of recomm endations,

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t , c o n t i n u e .
So, you already have that right, those are

serious allegations.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well – but rem ember that m y question,
Page 80 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
and I hope I don’t confuse you about the first part of the
question

and

the

second

part

of

the

question

but

my

concern is the second report deals with the same subject
matter as the first report.

Why are you not taking the

second report as the report intended by IPID to be their
report and not the first one because it’s the same subject
to the extent that there is some conflict between the two,
they can’t be intending both of them to be their reports at
the time of submitting the second one?
10

MR NHLEKO:
to

this

C o u l d I s u g g e s t , C h a i r, t h a t w e c o m e b a c k

question

but

maybe

the

starting

point

really…[intervenes].
CHAI RPERSO N: That’s fine.
MR NHLEKO:

Should be an evaluated exercise of what

are these two reports.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
come

back

Ye s .
And then we begin – we will then need to

exactly

to

the

questions

that

the

Chair

is

raising.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , M r H u l l e y j u s t m a k e a n o t e o f

the question please.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I have no difficulty with the – with

g o i n g i n t o t h e r e p o r t s b u t t h e q u e s t i o n i s , f i r s t l y, b e f o r e w e
even get into a consideration of the report, we need to
understand why it was considered necessary to refer the
Page 81 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
matter to Werksm ans in the first place. Now we know from
the – we know from the evidence that’s been given by Mr
N h l e k o t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l l e g a t i o n s . W e u n d e r s t a n d n o w,
that the allegations relate to the existence of the two
reports. Now if I understood Mr Nhleko’s testimony before,
these are not allegations, it was a fact, he had the two
reports. He had the signed report of the 22nd of January he
had the signed report of the 18th of March, he had both
reports before him.
10

N o w, a g a i n s t t h a t b a c k d r o p , i f I m i g h t

M r C h a i r, y o u ’ v e g o t t h e t w o r e p o r t s , i t ’ s n o t a n a l l e g a t i o n ,
you’ve got the two reports and you’ve got the second
report, the signed report of the 18th of March you got that
on the 26th of November of 2014, correct?

That was your

e a r l i e r t e s t i m o n y s i r.
MR NHLEKO:

No, I’m waiting to hear the question.

Now

against that backdrop are you suggesting that there are
allegations that there is something untoward about those
two reports because you’ve got the reports in front of you,
you can look at them yourself?
20

MR

NHLEKO:

Look, I’ve responded to the

question

e x t e n s i v e l y, C h a i r I e v e n o u t l i n e d t h e – w h a t a r e a s n e e d e d
to be considered in dealing with this particular question. So
in all fairness Chair I think let us deal with the reports.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well is – you see as we go along, we

might not all have the same recollection of what you said an
Page 82 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
h o u r e a r l i e r a n d y e s t e r d a y.

An evidence leader when he

has a certain question may sometimes want to make sure
that his premise is correct and therefore might ask you to
confirm that this is what you said before. So from your side
y o u m i g h t s a y, o h w h y i s h e a s k i n g m e a g a i n . N o w o f c o u r s e
I do not want him to ask you the same question all the time
because

we

need

to

make

progress but

sometimes an

evidence leader does that just to make sure that his next
question is not based on a misunderstanding of what you
10

said earlier on. So I just thought I might clarify that.
MR NHLEKO:

N o I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r.

I accept that very

much.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

And in fact, I would also venture to say that

some of these questions are still valuable [00:01:29] would
have delved into the report.

My misgiving that I suspect

that between yesterday and today there has been a concert
e ff o r t n o t t o d e a l w i t h t h i s . N o w a n d I a m n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: Well you…
20

MR NHLEKO:

I am not talking about – of course I am

talking about the evidence leader and I think for me it is
critical that clarity is put right across and out there around
these

particular

issues

and

that

is

why

I

am

saying

Honourable Chair that I think some of the questions that
you are asking are valid.

I may not agree with them but

Page 83 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
they are valid.

They – but it is possible that they will also

become much more clearer as and when we deal with the
investigation report and the two reports.

Because it is a

wide ranging amount of work that was done there.

It

includes issues of processing even within the whether IPID
and

some

sections

of

the

police

Prosecuting Authority and so on.

service,

the

National

But fundamentally it then

deals with the disjuncture between the two.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u s e e .
10

MR NHLEKO:

So for me I think that is – that is one

fundamental [indistinct 00:02:56].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u h e a r d m e e a r l i e r o n I s a i d l e t u s

go straight into the issue of the reports.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And when I say – then we will go to the

investigation and so on.

So I have no doubt Mr Hulley is

looking into dealing with that.

He is dealing with that.

But

the shorter answers you give the more progress we will
make.
20

Now of course there may be situations where you

feel you have to explain and so on but I also just need to
tell you that your counsel is here, he is here to protect your
interests.

He is watching and when he thinks there is

something unfair that is being done to you, he will – he is
very experienced counsel he will look after your interest.

I

am not saying that you may not raise an issue when you
Page 84 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
feel that there is an issue so – but let us try to the extent
possible

even

when

you

think

the

question

is

being

repeated if the answer is a simple one yes, yes I said so, I
did not say so let us try and do that.
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So Mr Nhleko what I am trying to

ascertain is the very reason why it is that you had refer this
10

m a t t e r t o We r k s m a n s i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e .

As I understand it

you said that there had been allegations.
that you

were

referring to

were

existence of the two reports.

The allegations

the allegations of the

The two reports you had in

front of you the – so I am trying to understand since you
had the two reports in front of you surely you could simply
look at the two reports yourself it might require further
investigation after you have come to a conclusion but you
could

certainly

look

at

the

two

reports

yourself

and

ascertain whether quite apart because the conclusions are
20

c l e a r l y d i ff e r e n t . B u t y o u c a n a s c e r t a i n f r o m t h e t w o r e p o r t s
w h a t t h o s e d i ff e r e n c e s a r e s u r e l y ?
MR NHLEKO:

Now I am trying to figure out Honourable

Chair how do I give you a shorter answer to the [indistinct
00:05:32] that was – I am not saying I will give you a
prescription.
Page 85 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON: Well do your best.
MR NHLEKO: I am not - I am so vested.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
MR NHLEKO:

How do I give you a short answer to this

question and I think this question we have been toing and
froing around it and so on.

Remember that this very same

question that is being posed by Mr Hulley talks to the issue
of the need for the docket so that we are able to go through
this issue of the two reports.
10

Now – so in a way this very

same question which had been attended to at an earlier
point it is – is being brought back and ja that is my
somewhat of a misgiving as you can have a look at reports.
But you need much more further details than what is written
in

the

reports.

And

that

is

where

the

question

of

investigation comes in.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Let me ask this question.

What was

your understanding at the time you were dealing with this
issue as to whether IPID would be entitled to change their
mind about recommendations that they may have made in
20

an earlier report?

Do you remember whether you had a

view or you did not have a view about whether if they have
submitted a report and later on they had a change of mind
about any recommendation and they would be entitled to
then

s a y,

you

know

we

have

realised

that

that

recommendation is not sustainable and here is a report that
Page 86 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
reflects

what

we

consider

to

be

our

final

view

and

r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o n t h e m a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO:

But Chair report does not stand from the

recommendations.

The

recommendations

is

the

final

product of some work that would have been – that would
have been done.

Now – an correctly so you know we kept

on going back to this question that says okay so you have
this report it is filed there and it is not withdrawn with the
National Prosecuting Authority but the recommendations of
10

this very same report as opposed to the report which came
l a t e r w h i c h i s n o w t h e 1 8 M a r c h a r e d i ff e r e n t – w h y ?
remember

that

I

had

spoken

to

the

question

Now
of

an

institutional arrangement here which says that the – the
p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t t h e N PA w o u l d g i v e t h e m a s I P I D f o r a n
example must also be part of the generation of I suppose
any other report if there would be after that.

Because why

would they be involved in one report and they are not
involved in another around the same issue?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR NHLEKO: That say – that is…
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

But my question is, are you able to

say that at that time you had a view or you did not have a
view on whether IPID was entitled to change its mind on
parts of a report or on its recommendations if after they
have submitted a report for certain reasons they realise that
Page 87 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
their view or recommendation would not be sustainable or
would not – is not justified?

Is that something that you

know that you did have a view that they could do that or is
it something – or you do not know whether you had thought
about it or you know that you thought they could not do
that?
MR NHLEKO:

I certainly do not know whether I really

t h o u g h t a b o u t i t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR NHLEKO:

Except that for me the critical question was

resolving the issue of the two reports.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

As you sit there now as a matter of

principle do you see anything wrong if the position – if you
were to be told that maybe the position is that IPID would or
was entitled if they changed their view on a report that had
been sent for whatever reason to change or to provide a
r e p o r t t h a t r e f l e c t e d t h e i r r e v i s e d v i e w. W h a t w o u l d y o u s a y
about that proposition as you sit there?
MR NHLEKO: And I think that is very hypothetical.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e h a v e [ i n d i s t i n c t 0 0 : 11 : 0 3 ]
MR NHLEKO: Ja but the – maybe let me try…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u – b e f o r e y o u t r y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e s a y.
M R N H L E K O : C h a i r.
Page 88 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e w e l l f o r m e a n d i t m a y b e t h a t f o r
Mr Hulley as well as for Mr Mokhari because we are in the
legal profession but maybe not for you.

Yo u k n o w f o r m e

when I – when I heard evidence last year about this report
from the IPID witnesses my first or one of my first questions
was are they entitled to change their view?

Are they

entitled if they discover for example that the report they
have sent in has a flaw are they entitled to – to convey
w h e t h e r t o t h e N PA o r t o t h e M i n i s t e r t o s e n d a r e p o r t t h a t
10

reflects their – their view after some intervening event has
happened or after they have had a chance to reflect on it
because if they are entitled it may be that that should be
the end of the matter? If they are not entitled it may be that
there should be further questions.

Another question that I

raised when the IPID witnesses were giving evidence was
this issue of alteration they are said to have altered a
report.

So I said well maybe somebody will explain to me

and maybe there is just something that is missing for me
because you – you – for me if you have a certain report and
20

maybe you – you cross out certain things maybe that is
alteration if you – there is a report then you create a
d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n t – a n o t h e r r e p o r t t h a t s e e m s t o m e i t i s a
d i ff e r e n t r e p o r t w h i c h m a y h a v e s o m e d i ff e r e n c e s w i t h t h e
first one but maybe that is technical but it is something that
I want to understand but let us deal with that in due course.
Page 89 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
So I come – I come back to simply the question first to say
you as you sit there do you have a position on whether they
were entitled to – they would have been entitled to give you
another report if an earlier report that they had done they
subsequent thought there was something wrong about it?
A D V M O K H A R I : S o r r y C h a i r I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
ADV MOKHARI: I just wanted to come in maybe…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV MOKHARI: What I say may be of assistance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MOKHARI:

The issue of whether IPID was an entitled

to produce another report.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MOKHARI:

My understanding is that it is a legal

issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MOKHARI:

So Mr Nhleko may give his view as I

understand the law on the legal issue it does not matter
20

w h a t t h e w i t n e s s s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MOKHARI: So if the law says something else then the
law says something else.

So maybe if he can focus on the

facts himself then the conclusion which is going to be a
legal conclusion will then be debated by the commission
Page 90 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
itself.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MOKHARI:

But the commission is now going to ask

itself a question.

What does the law say in respect of

reports which are produced by IPID?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MOKHARI:
which

Is IPID entitled to produce another report

contradicts

the

authority for that?
10

first

one

and

if

so

what

is

the

So that is going to be a debate among

the lawyers.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no I understand what you are saying.

Yo u w i l l h a v e n o t i c e d t h a t m y q u e s t i o n w a s n o t – w a s
framed with a view to getting his own understanding which
may be right or maybe wrong.

The lawyers will debate

whether it was right or wrong afterwards.
ADV MOKHARI:

Okay now I understand it.

Understand

that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t j u s t h i s o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Ye s .
ADV MOKHARI: I think he must answer the question.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M O K H A R I : B e c a u s e c l e a r l y, h e m u s t h a v e h a d a v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MOKHARI:

And either right or wrong he must have

h a d a v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: That is right yes.
Page 91 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV MOKHARI:

I think he must answer the question so

that we can move on.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

Thank you.

Thank you Mr

Mokhari.
M R N H L E K O : I a m s o h a p p y I a m n o t a l a w y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t b e s o r r y f o r n o t b e i n g a l a w y e r.
MR NHLEKO:

I will answer this because I want to try and

practicalise this thing and of course I am not going to be
legalistic as you would know I am not.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR NHLEKO:

I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t l a w.

A report of this

nature is constituted by statements from people.

Whether

w i t n e s s e s o r w h a t e v e r. S o l e t m e g i v e y o u a n e x a m p l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR NHLEKO:

If you take – you are [indistinct 00:16:32] a

report and there is a Colonel Madilonga who then says, no I
witnessed the entry of the Zimbabwean police and I picked
up the phone and I called this particular person.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Nhleko I know I am stopping
20

you.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

But I am trying to make sure we make

progress.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

My question is, whether at that time you
Page 92 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
had an understanding of whether they were entitled or not?
The answer could be yes I did have an understanding and
my

understanding

circumstances

or

is
my

they

were

entitled

understanding

was

under
they

certain

were

not

entitled. So that is what I am asking?
MR NHLEKO:

No I think the fair answer then to that if the

Honourable Chair says...
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR NHLEKO:
10

I should not try and provide a practical

example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N H L E K O : I s t h a t I h a d n o v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s . I h a d n o v i e w.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. N o w …
MR NHLEKO: And could I also suggest Chair?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R N H L E K O : A n o t h e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh another…
M R N H L E K O : Q u i c k b r e a k S i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well we are at seven minutes to or nine

minutes to one so another – I wanted to say to you that
some people call it a comfort break but a previous witness
in this commission long before Corona virus and Covid-19
Page 93 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
said could we have an opportunity to wash hands.

He

wanted an opportunity to wash hands.
MR NHLEKO: Sanitise.
CHAIRPERSON:

So with Covid-19 there is a lot of need

for washing hands.

So – so I think – I think in that – there

are two options depending on your situation.

We c a n g o u p

to one o’clock and then take the break or if the situation is
s u c h t h a t l e t u s s t o p n o w w e c a n s t o p n o w.

Yo u p r e f e r

now?
10

M R N H L E K O : Ye s . Ye s v e r y m u c h s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay no that is fine.

Let us take the

lunch adjournment and then we will resume at two o’clock.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
MR NHLEKO: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay we adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Let us continue and I will let you continue

M r H u l l e y j u st n o w b u t I j u st w a n t t o s e e i f I ca n r e a ch a
20

c e rt a i n u n d e r st a n d i n g o f M r N h l e k o ’s e vi d e n c e o n s o m e o f
t h e i s s u e s w e d e a l t w i t h b e f o re l u n c h .

Wo u l d y o u n o t a g r e e

with me Mr Nhleko that speaking at in general or in terms of
p r i n ci p l e t h a t i t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e i f t h e p o si t i o n w a s t h a t
I P I D w a s e n t i t l e d t o g i v e y o u a se c o n d r e p o rt i f yo u w a n t t o
c a l l i t t h a t o r a n o t h e r re p o rt i f t h e y h a d g i v e n y o u t h a t – t h e y
Page 94 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
h a d s e n t o u t a n e a rl i e r r e p o rt o n t h e s a m e s u b j e ct b u t
s u b se q u e n t l y t h e y t o o k t h e vi e w t h a t t h e y h a ve m a d e a
m i st a k e i n r e g a r d t o s o m e i s s u e s i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt .

So

speaking at a general level would you not agree with me that
i t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e i f t h e p o si t i o n w a s t h a t t h e y – t h e y w e r e
a b l e – t h e y w e r e e n t i t l e d t o – t o g i v e yo u a n o t h e r r e p o rt
re f l e ct i n g w h a t t h e y c o n si d e r e d t h e i r f i n a l r e p o rt ?
MR NHLEKO:

H m . N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i rp e r s o n . I

t h i n k I t ri e d t o d e a l w i t h t h i s q u e st i o n e a rl i e r o n b y t r yi n g t o
10

m a k e a n e xa m p l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR NHLEKO: And the Honourable Chair felt perhaps…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I st o p y o u – d i d I st o p y o u ?
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y. N o , n o h e f e l t t h a t I s h o u l d n o t o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
M R N H L E K O : I a m b e i n g d i p l o m a t i c C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

I a m t r yi n g t h e m o st i m p o s si b l e .

Because I

w a s t r yi n g i l l u st r a t e t h i s p o i n t t o s a y i f y o u t a l k o f a n
20

i n v e st i g a t i o n r e p o rt a n i n v e st i g a t i o n re p o rt i s m a d e u p o f a
n u m b e r o f co m p o n e n t s.

Yo u k n o w i t w o u l d b e st a t e m e n t s, i t

would be many other things and so on. But there could be a
ci r c u m st a n c e w h e re s o m e b o d y w h o h a s – w h o h a s m a d e a
st a t e m e n t t u r n s a r o u n d a n d sa y s, n o I t o l d a l i e . I n f a ct , t h a t
thing is not true.

S o I a m n o w w i t h d r a w i n g m y st a t e m e n t .
Page 95 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
Yo u k n o w.

I s a i d t h a t Mr so a n d s o st o l e a g o a t , ri g h t ?

But

i n a ct u a l f a ct I d i d n o t se e h i m st e a l i n g a g o a t a n d t h e r e f o r e
it is not true.
CHAIRPERSON:

I thought it was him but I think it was

s o m e b o d y e l se n o w.
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u kn o w i t c o u l d b e t h a t .

Now that is a

m a t e ri a l f a ct o r a n d t h a t m a t e ri a l f a ct o r i s b o u n d t o i n f l u e n c e
y o u r c o n cl u si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR NHLEKO:

Right.

S o I a m ve e ri n g a w a y f r o m w h a t

S e n i o r C o u n s e l M o k h a ri r e f e rr e d t o a s t h e l e g a l q u e st i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

Entitlement versus not being entitled and so

and so.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : I a m st a yi n g a w a y d e l i b e r a t e l y f r o m t h a t b u t I
a m p ro v i d i n g t h i s p r a ct i c a l e x a m p l e b e c a u s e I a m t r yi n g t o
s a y t h a t i f y o u w e r e a n i n v e st i g a t o r a n d c e rt a i n st a t e m e n t s
change and people withdraw that is bound to influence your
20

c o n cl u si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R N H L E K O : S o f ro m a p r a ct i c a l p o i n t o f vi e w i t d o e s m a k e
s e n se t o d o s o .

T h e n y o u w i l l h a v e a d i ff e r e n t r e p o rt w h i ch

w o u l d t h e n a l s o r e f e r t o t h e f i r st r e p o rt a s b e i n g c h a n g e d o r
a n n u l l e d f o r t h e s e p a rt i c u l a r r e a s o n s.
Page 96 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y n o t h a t i s f i n e .

We l l t h a t i s i n l i n e

w i t h m y o w n s e n s e o f w h a t I w o u l d e x p e ct t o b e p o s si b l e
b e ca u s e o t h e r w i s e i f t h e y w e r e n o t a s a m a t t e r o f p r i n ci p l e
e n t i t l e d t o g i ve

y o u a r e vi se d r e p o rt o r a n o t h e r r e p o rt

re f l e ct i n g t h e i r l a t e st p o si t i o n y o u co u l d h a v e a si t u a t i o n
w h e r e y o u a s t h e M i n i st e r e n d u p m a ki n g a d e ci si o n f o r
e x a m p l e t h a t s o m e b o d y m u st b e s u b j e ct e d t o d i s ci p l i n a r y
h e a ri n g o n so m e t h i n g w h i c h i s b a s e d o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a d
a l re a d y r e a l i s e d w a s f l a w e d a n d a ct u a l l y I w o u l d s u g g e st
10

t h a t i f a f t e r y o u h a ve m a d e -

i f t h e y d i d n o t b ri n g t h i s t o

y o u r a t t e n t i o n b y w a y o f s a yi n g , l o o k w e h a v e – w e m a d e a
m i st a k e t h i s i s – t h i s i s o u r vi e w n o w w e h a v e r e f l e ct e d b l a ,
b l a , b l a a n d yo u m a d e a d e ci s i o n a n d m a y b e t h a t d e ci si o n
w a s c h a l l e n g e d a n d so o n a n d s o o n s u c c e s sf u l l y a n d y o u
got to know that they did realise that they had made a
m i st a k e b u t t h e y d i d n o t b ri n g t h i s t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n i t
a p p e a r s t o m e y o u w o u l d h a v e g ro u n d s t o b e a n g r y w i t h
them.

To s a y, w h y d i d y o u l e t m e m a k e a d e ci si o n o n t h e

b a si s o f s o m e t h i n g yo u h a d r e a l i s e d w a s a m i st a k e ?
20

Yo u

u n d e r st a n d ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s I u n d e r st a n d y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o i t – I t h i n k t h e r e f o re w h a t t h i s

c o n ve r s a t i o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d m e r e v e a l s i s t h a t y o u a n d –
you and I think that as a matter of common sense there
w o u l d b e n o t h i n g w r o n g i n p ri n ci p l e w i t h ch a n g i n g a r e p o rt o r
Page 97 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
u p d a t i n g i t o r w h a t e ve r y o u c a l l i t i f t h e r e a r e c e rt a i n t h i n g s
that might have happened.

It might be that it depends what

it is that has happened.
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w b u t i n p ri n ci p l e w e f i n d n o t h i n g

w r o n g w i t h t h e i d e a o f b e i n g a b l e t o sa y, I h a ve re a l i s e d
t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt t h i s i s w h a t I a m
n o w sa y i n g .
MR NHLEKO: I can perhaps try and elaborate on this point.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

C h a i r p e r so n .

J u st m a k e a o n e f o r m u l a t i o n .

S u p p o se I a m w ri t i n g a r e p o rt t o t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s a b o u t
t h i s c o m m i s si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : T h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n c e i f i n t h e f o rm u l a t i o n s a y
i n d e e d t h e c o m m i s si o n sa i d a n d t h e y ch e c k h i m i n w e a ri n g a
re d s u i t a n d w h i t e t a k ki e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR NHLEKO:
20

T h a t f o r m u l a t i o n i s d i ff e r e n t f r o m i n d e e d t h e

c o m m i s si o n s a i d b u t i t n o ch a i r p e r s o n . N o w y o u a r e l i k e l y t o
a r ri v e a t t w o d i ff e re n t c o n cl u si o n s t h e n . T h e o n e c o n cl u si o n
i s t h a t y e s t h e c o m m i s si o n h a d a c h a i r.

It is debatable

whether the suit that he was wearing was indeed red and
w a s h e w e a ri n g t a k ki e s.

T h a t i s s o m e t h i n g e l s e . Yo u k n o w.

B u t i t i s a m a t e ri a l f a ct o r t o t h e n s a y t h e c h a i r w a s n o t t h e r e
Page 98 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
b u t t h e c o m m i s si o n s a t a n d f u n ct i o n e d . H e d i d t h e n q u e st i o n
t h e l e g i t i m a c y o f t h e st r u ct u r e i t s e l f . S o i t i s – f o r m e j u st t o
you

know

of

course

elaborating

on

this

point

and

the

engagement you know the Chair and the Honourable Chair is
h a vi n g a n d I t h i n k t h a t w o u l d b e d i st i n ct i v e ki n d o f f a ct o r
re a l l y. S o I a g r e e w i t h t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

No I think we are on the same page

b e ca u s e j u st t o m a k e a n o t h e r e x a m p l e .

I f yo u w h e n y o u

w e re M i n i st e r p r e p a r e d a r e p o rt a n d t o s u b m i t t o c a b i n e t a n d
10

a f t e r y o u h a v e su b m i t t e d i t yo u re a l i s e t h a t t h e r e w a s q u i t e
s o m e f l a w o r se ri o u s f l a w s o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t y o u o u g h t
t o b e e n t i t l e d t o r e p l a ce i t w i t h o n e t h a t y o u a r e h a p p y w i t h .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w t h a t i s t h e p ri n ci p l e .

Then of

c o u r s e i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h i s a n d I t h i n k M r H u l l e y c a n t a ke i t
f ro m t h e r e i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h i s w e n e e d t o g e t t o t h e a ct u a l
a l t e r a t i o n s t o s a y, l e t u s g o t o t h e s o c a l l e d a l t e r a t i o n s a n d
see
1. If there are alterations or
20

2 . W h a t w a s t h e b a s i s f o r d i ff e r e n t a l t e r a t i o n s o r d i ff e r e n t
re c o m m e n d a t i o n s o r w h a t e v e r e l s e w a s d i ff e r e n t ?
And then deal with that. But before we do so Mr Hulley may
I a l so p u t t h i s a n d h e a r w h a t y o u h a v e t o s a y M r N h l e k o . A s
far

as

r e co m m e n d a t i o n s

are

concerned

insofar

as

they

re l a t e d t o – t h e y m a y h a ve re l a t e d t o cri m i n a l c o n d u ct t h a t
Page 99 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w a s f o r t h e N PA t o d e ci d e , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: That had nothing to do with you in terms of
h o w t h e y d e c i d e b u t t h e y h a d t o d e ci d e t h a t .

But insofar as

m a t t e r s o f a d i s ci p l i n a r y n a t u r e w e re c o n c e rn e d t h a t f e l l
w i t h i n y o u r s p h e r e o f o p e ra t i o n y o u h a d t o d e ci d e w h e t h e r
s o m e b o d y n e e d e d t o b e d i s ci p l i n e d o r n o t , i s t h a t ri g h t ?
M R N H L E K O : N o c o r r e ct l y s o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t a m I a l s o c o r r e ct t h a t y o u w e r e n o t

b o u n d b y t h e r e co m m e n d a t i o n s o f I P I D i n t e rm s o f t h o s e – i n
t e r m s o f t h e i r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s o n d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s y o u
would have been entitled to look at the material and make up
your own mind, disagree with their recommendation if you
d i d n o t t h i n k i t w a s s o u n d , a rri v e a t y o u r o w n d e ci s i o n ?

Or

i s t h e p o si t i o n t h a t o n c e t h e y h a d m a d e a re c o m m e n d a t i o n
you did not have an option you had to implement their
re c o m m e n d a t i o n ?
MR NHLEKO: No I think it should be remembered Chair that
a s a n e m p l o y e r y o u – y o u h a ve b o t h t h e a d m i n i st r a t i v e a n d
20

i n st i t u t i o n a l d u t y t o u p h o l d t h e i m a g e o f t h e i n st i t u t i o n . S o i f
f o r a n e x a m p l e o n e o f y o u r e m p l o y e e s i s – i s f a ci n g c ri m i n a l
c h a r g e s o u t t h e re l e t m e m a k e sp e ci f i c t h a t e x a m p l e a n d s o
on.

F ro m a n i n st i t u t i o n a l p o i n t o f v i e w s o m e t h i n g h a s g o t t o

b e d o n e a b o u t t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e a re i s s u e s o f i m a g e , t h e r e
a r e i s s u e s o f r e p u t e , t h e r e a r e o t h e r i s su e s o f c o u r s e re l a t e d
Page 100 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t o t h a t a n d so o n . S o a s a n e m p l o y e r y o u w o u l d a l so h a ve t o
l o o k i n t o t h a t w i t h o u t n e c e s s a ri l y s a yi n g , y o u a r e p u r s u i n g
c ri m i n a l c h a r g e s b e ca u s e cri m i n a l ch a r g e s a re t h i n g s t h a t
h a p p e n o u t t h e re a n d s o o n .

And once those matters would

h a ve b e e n so rt e d y o u w i l l s e e h o w y o u t h e n d e a l w i t h t h a t
p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r.

So I am not sure whether that would

s a t i sf y f o r a n e x a m p l e t h i s i s s u e b e c a u se i t i s a ve r y – s o m e
s o rt o f a t h i n g d i vi d e i f I m a y p u t i t t h a t w a y ?

Because

c ri m i n a l i t y i s b e i n g p u r su e d s o m e w h e r e e l s e b y a r e p u t a b l e
10

i n st i t u t i o n s u ch a s t h e N PA . B u t t h e r e a r e i s su e s t h e n a b o u t
t h e n a t u r e o f t h e e m p l o y m e n t a n d t h e i n st i t u t i o n t h a t w i l l b e
heading.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h a t w a s n o t m y q u e st i o n .

My

q u e st i o n i s, w a s yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u
w e re b o u n d b y I P I D ’s re c o m m e n d at i o n s a s f a r a s d i s c i p l i n a r y
matters

w e re

c o n ce r n e d ?

Namely

if

they

made

a

re c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t s o m e b o d y m u st b e d i s ci p l i n e d o r t h e y
made

a

recommendation

that

somebody

should

not

be

d i s ci p l i n e d w a s y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t y o u w e r e b o u n d t o
20

i m p l e m e n t t h e i r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s o r w a s y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g
t h a t y o u w e r e n o t b o u n d t h i s w a s si m p l y a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n
y o u a r e e n t i t l e d t o a r ri v e a t y o u r o w n d e c i si o n w h i c h c o u l d
be that I disagree with this recommendation, this is what I
am going to do?
MR NHLEKO:

It – I suppose it would really depend on the
Page 101 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
m a t e ri a l f a ct o r s i n v o l v e d b u t re c o m m e n d a t i o n s a r e t o b e
t a k e n s e ri o u sl y. T h a t w o u l d b e m y p o i n t o f e m p h a si s a n d s o
on. And then take it on from there.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l l e t m e t r y t h i s.

Wo u l d yo u r a t t i t u d e

h a ve b e e n t h a t y o u w o u l d t a k e I P I D ’s r e co m m e n d a t i o n s o n
d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s s e ri o u sl y b u t y o u w o u l d f e e l f re e t o
d e p a rt f r o m t h e m o r n o t t o f o l l o w t h e m w h e r e y o u f e l t t h a t
t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e re w r o n g ?

I a m t r yi n g t o s e e t o w h a t

e xt e n t – w h a t w a s t h e i r p l a c e i n y o u r d e ci si o n m a ki n g ?
10

M R N H L E K O : Ye s b u t t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

B e ca u s e

from

what

you

say

we

can

e x cl u d e t h e p o s si b i l i t y t h a t y o u t h o u g h t t h e y m e a n t n o t h i n g
you could ignore them.

T h a t i s n o t w h a t y o u a re s a yi n g ?

Yo u a r e s a yi n g t h e y n e e d t o b e t a k e n se ri o u sl y.
M R N H L E K O : Yo u c o u l d – y o u c o u l d n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t – b u t I a m e x p l o ri n g t h e p o s si b i l i t y
w h e t h e r t a ki n g t h e m s e ri o u sl y m e a n t t h a t a s f a r a s y o u
u n d e r st o o d t h e p o si t i o n y o u m u st i m p l e m e n t t h e m a l l t h e
t i m e i rr e s p e ct i ve o f y o u r vi e w o f t h e m o r w h et h e r y o u a r e
20

s a yi n g I w o u l d t a k e – I w o u l d i m p l e m e n t t h e m u n l e s s I f e l t
st ro n g l y t h a t t h e y w e re w r o n g .
MR NHLEKO:

Look I would implement them.

I would

d e f i n i t e l y i m p l e m e n t t h e m b u t yo u k n o w e a rl i e r o n I w a s j u st
t h i n ki n g a b o u t h o w t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r w a s s a yi n g t h e r e i s
a c o n t r a d i ct i o n b e t w e e n t a ki n g s o m e t h i n g s e ri o u s l y b u t b e i n g
Page 102 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
f re e t o d o s o m e t h i n g e l s e i n t h e o p p o si t e yo u kn o w.

So –

b u t n e v e rt h e l e s s I w o u l d t a k e t h e m s e ri o u sl y a n d o f c o u r s e
implement them.

N o w a n y o t h e r m a t t e r t h a t w i l l a ri s e

t h e r e a f t e r y o u k n o w o f m a t e ri a l v a l u e f o r a n e x a m p l e w i l l
a r i se o u t o f t h e p r o c e s s. J a f o r [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 5 : 5 3 ] s a y y o u
c o u l d h a v e a si t u a t i o n w h e r e a p a rt i c u l a r e x- e m p l o y e e i s
b e i n g a c cu s e d o f X Y a n d Z o k a y b u t t h e n a s a n d w h e n t h e
d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e s s i s u n f o l d i n g i t i s t h e n d i s co v e r e d t h a t
b a si c a l l y t h i s p a rt i c u l a r h u m a n i n d i vi d u a l i s n o t a s g u i l t y a s
10

s u g g e st e d f o r l a c k o f a b e t t e r w o r d r e a l l y.

So that is why I

a l w a y s st r e s s – s a y H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e
p r o c e s s.

A d i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e xt re m e l y i m p o rt a n t a n d i t

h a s t o b e f o l l o w e d a t a l l m a t e ri a l t i m e s so t h a t y o u k n o w y o u
g i v e a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o a n a c c u s e d p e r s o n t o cl e a r h i m se l f o r
h e r s e l f b u t a l s o p u t m a t t e r s o u t t h e re i n t h e o p e n . I f t h e r e i s
e x o n e r a t i o n t h e r e i s e x o n e ra t i o n .

I f t h e r e i s no t t h e r e i s n o t

i t i s a d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r a l t o g e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u . M r H u l l e y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. T h e q u e st i o n o f a n d
20

we will return to some of the issues that have been raised by
t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a t s o m e st a g e .

B u t f o r p re s e n t p u r p o se s I

a m t r yi n g t o u n d e r st a n d s o m e o f y o u r e a r l i e r a n s w e r s a n d I
t h i n k I d o b u t t h e re i s s o m e d i s a g r e e m e n t o r m i g h t b e s o m e
d i s a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n m e a n d m y – t h e r e st o f m y t e a m a s
t o w h a t yo u r a n s w e r a ct u a l l y i s.

I f I u n d e r st a n d c o r r e ct l y

Page 103 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
b e f o r e y o u d e ci d e d t o r e f e r t h e m a t t e r t o We r k s m a n s f o r
t h e i r a s s e s s m e n t y o u h a d n o t a t t h a t st a g e a ct u a l l y g o n e
t h r o u g h a p r o c e s s o f c o n d u ct i n g a n a n a l y si s b e t w e e n t h e
f i r st r e p o rt , t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt a n d t h e d o c k e t .

Now I am

s p e a k i n g a b o u t y o u p e r s o n a l l y.
MR

NHLEKO:

No

but

i n d i vi d u a l i st i c a b o u t t h i s.

Chair

we

do

not

have

to

be

T h e f a ct o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t a s

M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e t h e n I w a s h e a d i n g a n i n st i t u t i o n c a l l e d

10

M i n i st r y.

So

p e r s o n a l l y.

Did you do this and so?

m a t t e r i s t h i s.

you

cannot

have

the

emphasis

on

you

I mean the fact of the

C e rt a i n m a t t e r s w e re b r o u g h t t o t h e f o re .

Identified you know ideally as they should have been.

Yo u

p u t t h e m t o a p r o c e s s a n d y o u s a y e st a b l i s h t h e f a ct s a r o u n d
t h i s. Yo u k n o w. N o w
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

We l l y o u s e e M r N h l e k o I k n o w – I

k n o w I a m i n t e rr u p t i n g y o u w h i l e y o u a r e i n t h e m i d d l e o f
y o u r a n s w e r.
MR NHLEKO: No, no you did not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h yo u a ct u a l l y d o n e . O k a y.
20

M R N H L E K O : I j u st st o p p e d t h e r e . I j u st st o p p e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o y o u s e e a s I h a v e s a i d e a rl i e r, w e

w i l l m a k e b e t t e r p ro g r e s s i f y o u j u s t a n s w e r t h e q u e s t i o n .

If

t h e q u e st i o n i s h a d y o u y o u r s e l f p e r s o n a l l y c o n d u ct e d t h e
a n a l y si s a n d t h e a n s w e r i s y o u h a d n o t y o u j u st sa y I h a d
n o t . A n d i f y o u w a n t t o a d d b u t I h a d st a ff w h o h a d d o n e s o
Page 104 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
f o r m e t h e y g a v e m e e x e cu t i v e su m m a ri e s t h a t i s w h a t I h a v e
l o o k e d a t t h a t i s f i n e . T h e n w e m a k e p r o g r e s s. O k a y.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

F r o m w h a t y o u – f ro m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d

i t se e m s t o m e t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e y o u r s e l f d o n e t h a t
a n a l y si s b u t t h e r e w e r e st a ff i n y o u r M i n i st r y w h o h a d d o n e
t h a t a n d y o u h a d t h e b e n e f i t o f t h a t . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
MR NHLEKO: Right.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h a t i n f a ct c o rr e ct S i r ?
M R N H L E K O : I t i s c o r r e ct S i r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y s o y o u h a d st a ff w h o h a d c o n d u ct e d
t h e a n a l y si s.
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

C o m p a r e d t h e f i r st r e p o rt t o t h e s e co n d

re p o rt a n d c o m p a r e d b o t h o f t h o s e a g a i n st t h e d o c k e t ?
M R N H L E K O : R i g h t c o r re ct l y s o .
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e y c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n o f t h a t

what had happened?
20

Or let me ask you, what was their

c o n cl u si o n ?
MR NHLEKO:

N o t h e c o n cl u si o n w a s si m p l e .

T h e re w a s

f u rt h e r w o r k t h a t n e e d e d t o b e u n d e rt a k e n i n s o f a r a s t h e
i s s u e o f t h e t w o re p o rt s.

And that is where the issue of –

t h a t i s w h e r e t h e i s s u e o f t h e – I t h i n k a b o u t t h e si x s o rt o f
areas of focus came in.

To t h e n s a y l o o k t h e s e a r e t h e

Page 105 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
m a t t e r s t h a t w o u l d h a v e t o b e l o o k e d i n t o t o cl a r i f y t h i s
q u e st i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

No when you say areas of focus are you

re f e rr i n g i n f a ct t o t h e u l t i m a t e q u e st i o n s t h a t w e re p u t t o
We r k sm a n s t o sa y ?
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n v e st i g a t e t h e s e i s s u e s.
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:
been

–

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

p r e su m a b l y

re p o rt

or

an

S o a r e p o rt h a d

e x e c u t i ve

su m m a r y

or

s o m e t h i n g h a d b e e n p re p a re d w h i c h w a s g i v e n t o yo u t o
c o n si d e r a s t h e M i n i st e r w h i c h d e a l t w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f
w h e t h e r – o f t h e co m p a ri s o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o r e p o rt s a n d
t h e d o c k e t a n d s u g g e st e d t o y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s a d d i t i o n a l
work that needed to be done and that should be – and that is
o n e o f t h e re a s o n s w h y y o u d e ci d e d t o r e f e r t h e m a t t e r t o
I P I D – a g p a r d o n m e t o We r k sm a n s ?
MR NHLEKO: Right.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w c o u l d y o u j u st b e a r w i t h m e .

And

t h e p e o p l e t h a t h a ve c o n d u ct e d t h i s a s se s s m e n t a r e w e
re f e rr i n g h e r e t o t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p , a r e w e r e f e r ri n g t o
s o m e l e g a l a d vi s o r s o r a r e w e r e f e r ri n g t o s o m e b o d y o t h e r
than either of those two?
MR NHLEKO:

I t i s a c o m b i n a t i o n r e a l l y.
Page 106 of 201

The Reference

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
Group did whatever work it would do.

It would bring the

re s u l t o f t h e w o r k b u t o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w t h a t i s t h e n w i t h i n
t h e Mi n i st r y a n d w e w o u l d a l so s i t a n d g o t h ro u g h I m e a n
s u c h r e p o rt s.
ADV HULLEY SC: Sorry did you – the people who compiled
t h e E x e c u t i v e S u m m a r y o r a r e p o rt w h i c h p o i n t e d o u t t h a t
t h e y h a d co n d u ct e d a n an a l y s i s o f t h e t w o I P I D r e p o rt s a n d
t h e y h a d c o n d u ct e d a n a l y si s o f t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e y f e l t t h a t
there was additional work to be done.
10

I a m l o o ki n g f o r t h e

i d e n t i t y o f t h a t p e r so n , p e r so n s o r b o d y? N o w y o u s a y i t i s a
c o m b i n a t i o n I s u g g e st t o t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p , I s u g g e st
w i t h t h e l e g a l a d vi s o r.
combination of what?

Yo u s a y i t i s a c o m b i n a t i o n .

A

T h e R e f e re n c e G r o u p a n d t h e l e g a l

a d vi s o r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k h e i s s a yi n g t h a t p e o p l e f r o m

d i ff e r e n t u n i t s i n t h e Mi n i st r y d i d s o m e w o r k – w e l l I d o n o t
k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a d o c u m e n t t h a t u l t i m a t e l y w a s s u p p o se d –
w a s g i ve n t o y o u .

A si n g l e d o c u m e n t o r w h e t h e r t h e r e m a y

h a ve b e e n d i ff e re n t d o cu m e n t s f r o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e . I s t h a t
20

s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r o r i s t h a t so m e t h i n g
you are not able to remember?
MR NHLEKO:

I t i s p o s si b l e t h a t i n c e rt a i n i n st a n c e s t h e r e

w o u l d b e a d o c u m e n t b u t b y a n d l a r g e w e w o u l d h a ve a
d i s c u s si o n a n d st r a t e g y s e s si o n s f o r a n e x a m p l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja .
Page 107 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : To l o o k i n t o r e p o rt s a n d va ri o u s i s s u e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja .
M R N H L E K O : A n d s o t h e y t h e n t a k e i t yo u kn o w f o l l o w i t o n
f ro m t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a . O k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f I m i g h t t a k e y o u t o yo u r a ff i d a v i t w h i c h
i s t o b e f o u n d i n L E A 1 a t p a g e – t h i s i s E x h i b i t YA – S o r r y
Y 8 [ A ] M r C h a i r p e r s o n . A n d t h e r e l e v a n t p o rt i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t – t h a t i s h i s a ff i d a v i t ?
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a t i s co r re ct . T h e r e l e va n t p o rt i o n i s a t
page 28.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j u st …
M R N H L E K O : I s i t 2 8 o f m y a ff i d a vi t o r y o u r 2 8 ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Is 28 the paragraph or the page?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : 2 8 i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m e a n s i t i s t h e re d n u m b e r s a t t h e

top.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : To p ri g h t h a n d c o r n e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n t i n u e M r H u l l e y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I f w e c a n st a rt i n f a ct M r C h a i r p e r so n o n

t h e p r e ce d i n g p a g e a t p a g e 2 7 a t t h e f o o t o f t h a t p a g e a t
p a r a g ra p h 7 5 . Yo u s a y t h a t :
“ T h e R e f e r e n c e G ro u p i n d e a l i n g w i t h t h e u n l a w f u l re n d i t i o n
of

Zimbabwean

Nationals

identified

Page 108 of 201

that

there

was

an

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
i n v e st i g a t i o n r e p o rt b y I P I D co n d u c t e d e a rl i e r a n d si g n e d o ff
on the 22 January 2012.

I t a l s o i d e n t i f i e d t h a t t h e re w a s

a n o t h e r r e p o rt b y I P I D s o o n a f t e r M r R o b e rt M c B r i d e h a d
a s s u m e d h i s – a s s u m e d f u n ct i o n a s E x e c u t i v e D i r e ct o r o f
IPID in March 2012.

The predicament with this was that

t h e r e w e r e n o w t w o r e p o rt s o n t h e s a m e su b j e ct m a t t e r o f
t h e r e n d i t i o n o f t h e Zi m b a b w e a n N a t i o n a l s e a c h r e p o rt w i t h
re c o m m e n d a t i o n s

that

were

in

c o n t r a d i ct i o n

with

one

a n o t h e r. ”
10

S a v e t h e l a st r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o n b o t h r e p o rt s t h e i n i t i a l
re p o rt b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p o n p a g e 7 – s o rr y o n t h e
f o l l o w i n g p a g e p a ra g r a p h 7 6 i s:
“ T h e i n i t i a l r e p o rt b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p a n d a l s o p o i n t e d
o u t t o t h e s e ri o u s n e s s o f t h i s m a t t e r t h e r e p o rt p o i n t e d t o t h e
vi o l a t i o n o f t h e E xt ra d i t i o n A ct , t h e A f ri c a n U n i o n P r o t o co l
a n d t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s C o n v e n t i o n a m o n g o t h e r s.

I t m u st

a l s o b e re m e m b e re d t h a t t h e c ri m i n a l j u st i c e cl u st e r w a s
a l s o se i z e d w i t h t h e m a t t e r i n 2 0 1 2 a s t h i s m a t t e r a t t ra ct e d
m e d i a a n d p u b l i c i n t e r e st a f t e r t h e e x p o s e b y t h e S u n d a y
20

Ti m e s P u b l i c a t i o n .

I n 2 0 1 4 w h e n I a p p e a r e d o n S A B C Ta l k

C h a n n e l s f o r t h e P r e s e n t a t i o n o f C ri m e S t a t i st i c s t h e s h o w
a n ch o r w i t h a s u d d e n q u e st i o n o n re n d i t i o n s a n d a s k e d m e
t o w h y d i s ci p l i n a r y st e p s w e r e n o t b e i n g i n st i t u t e d a g a i n st
s e n i o r p o l i c e o ff i c i a l s s u ch a s G e n e ra l D r a m a t a n d o t h e r s a s
t h e y w e r e i m p l i c a t e d i n t h e s a i d r e p o rt .
Page 109 of 201

I u n d e rt o o k ri g h t

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t h e r e a n d t h e n t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o f o l l o w u p o n t h e sa i d
complaint.
the

G i v e n a l l t h e se m a t t e r s a s t h e y w e r e b r o u g h t t o

f o re

you

say

I

felt

the

need

for

more

detailed

i n v e st i g a t i o n t o c l a ri f y o u r se l ve s o n t h e s e i s s u e s.

I then

p r o c e e d e d t o a p p o i n t We r k s m a n s A t t o rn e y s t o c o n d u ct t h e
i n v e st i g a t i o n . ”
N o w t h e r e i s n o m e n t i o n i s t h i s t h e n a b o u t t h e f a ct
that

you

had

re c e i v e d

either

an

Executive

S u m m a r y,

a

m e m o ra n d u m o r e v e n d i s c u s si o n f ro m – f r o m a n y b o d y n o t
10

e v e n f r o m t h e R e f e r e n c e G ro u p .

The only reference to the

Reference

about

Group

over

h e re

is

the

f a ct

that

the

Reference Group had spoken about the Dramat investigation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Hulley I am very keen for us to get to

what the alterations were.
ADV HULLEY SC: I am too.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

We m u st t r y a n d f i n i s h t o d a y.

This

w i t n e s s w e – w e – w a s g o i n g t o t e st i f y y e st e rd a y a n d a f t e r
that

there

would

have

been

c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n

of

Mr

M c B ri d e .
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e t o o k t h e w h o l e o f y e st e r d a y. We –
I t h o u g h t w e w o u l d f i n i sh b e f o r e l u n ch .

We a r e n o w a f t e r

l u n c h . We h a v e g o t t o g e t t o t h e r e a l i s s u e s.
ADV HULLEY SC:
C h a i r ’s l e a v e .

What I want to do with your – with the

I w a n t t o o b vi o u sl y g e t i n t o t h e r e p o rt – t h e
Page 110 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t w o r e p o rt s a n d I w i l l p r o d u c e t h e t w o re p o rt s.

The thing

t h a t I a m a n xi o u s a b o u t o f co u r s e i s t h a t i f t h e w i t n e s s h a d
n o t c o n si d e r e d – d o n e a n a s se s s m e n t o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s t h e n
e v e r yt h i n g h e t e l l s a f t e r t h a t i s r e a l l y b a s e d u p o n w h a t t h e
We r k sm a n s R e p o r t h a s s a i d a s o p p o s e d t o w h a t h e h i m se l f
had done.

S o I a m j u st a n xi o u s b u t I w i l l g e t i n t o t h e r e p o rt

M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

am

sorry

I

think

j u st

b ri n g

your

m i cr o p h o n e cl o s e r I m i s se d s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s y o u a r e
10

s a yi n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

W h a t I – t h e p o i n t I a m m a ki n g M r C h a i r

i s t h a t I a m a n xi o u s t o g e t i n t o t h e re p o rt s p r o vi d e d t h a t t h e
w i t n e s s i s h i m s e l f d o n e a n a s s e s sm e n t o f t h e re p o rt s p r i o r t o
We r k sm a n s o t h e r w i s e i f i t i s t h e – i f h i s a s se s s m e n t i s b a s e d
u p o n w h a t We r k s m a n s h a s d o n e o r s a i d t h e n We r k s m a n s a r e
t h e p e o p l e t h a t I m u st sp e a k t o a n d Mr J u l y i s c o m i n g t o
t e st i f y a b o u t t h a t . B u t f o r t h i s w i t n e s s a n d I u n d e r st a n d t h a t
20

t h e w i t n e s s h a s t e st i f i e d t h a t h e e n d o r s e d o r a c c e p t e d t h e
re p o rt a n d w e w i l l d e a l w i t h t h a t i n a m o m e n t .
st a g e

I

am

j u st

a n xi o u s

to

first

a s c e rt a i n

But at this
the

w i t n e s s’

re s p o n s e o f w h e t h e r h e h i m se l f h a d d o n e o r e v e n b e e n
a d vi s e d

on

the

assessment

that

had

been

c o n d u ct e d

b e t w e e n t h e t w o r e p o rt s b e f o r e w e g e t i n t o t h e r e p o rt s.
Page 111 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I c a n u n d e r s t a n d I u n d e r st o o d e a rl i e r

on when you asked him about whether he had personally
d o n e t h e a n a l y si s t h a t y o u t a l k e d a b o u t b u t I a m n o t s u r e
h o w i m p o rt a n t t h a t t h i s i s s u e i s. H e t o o k t h e vi e w t h a t t h e r e
w a s a n a l t e r a t i o n o f a c e rt a i n r e p o rt , o f t h e f i r st r e p o rt a n d
h e t o o k t h e vi e w t h a t ci r c u m st a n c e s w e r e s u c h t h a t t h e r e
s h o u l d b e f u rt h e r i n ve st i g a t i o n a n d i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w e
a r e t a ki n g l o n g t o g e t i n t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . e x a ct l y w h a t w a s d i ff e r e n t b e t w e e n t h e

t w o r e p o rt s. S o I t h i n k l e t u s g e t t h e r e a s s o o n a s p o s si b l e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k s, M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

If you would not mind.

We a r e j u st

d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s o n e i s su e o f . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC: So what I am getting at Mr Nhleko, is that
i n yo u r e x p l a n a t i o n , i n f a ct , q u i t e a s u b st a n t i a l e x p l a n a t i o n ,
you
20

mentioned...

you

have

made

no

mention

at

all

of

re c e i vi n g i n p u t f r o m t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p o r f r o m a n y o t h e r
b o d y, m a d e m e n t i o n t o t h e a n a l y s e s t h a t w a s d o n e b e t w e e n
t h e t w o r e p o rt s, o t h e r t h a n t o i d e n t i f y t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o
d i ff e r e n t r e p o rt s.
M R N H L E K O : A r e p o rt i s p ro d u c e d b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G ro u p .
T h e y b ri n g i t o ve r t o m e i n t e rm s o f , y o u kn o w, i n t e r m s o f
Page 112 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
what it is that they have found.

A n d t h e re p o rt i s e n t i t l e d

m i n i st r y. . . n o , i t i s a r e p o rt t o a d v i s e t h e m i n i st r y o n g o o d
g o ve r n a n ce

procedures

and

i n t e r - g o ve r n m e n t a l

lay

p r o t o c o l s. E x c u s e m e . [ t h r o a t c l e a r i n g ] I n e e d s o m e w a t e r.
M y a p o l o g i e s C h a i r f o r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e sh o u l d a l w a y s b e w a t e r n e xt t o t h e

w i t n e s s. I t h i n k . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : I m e a n t p u re w a t e r. [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
10

M R N H L E K O : P r o b a b l y C h a i r. [ l a u g h s] A n d s o i n t h e r e p o rt
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r N h l e k o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : T h e r e p o rt i s t i t l e d t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We h a v e g o t o t h e r w a t e r. [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] M y a p o l o g i e s t h e r e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A re yo u t h i n ki n g o f i si Z u l u ?

B e c a u se i n

i si Z u l u t h e r e i s w a t e r t h a t i s d e s c ri b e d i n a c e rt a i n w a y.
[ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] I k n o w t h a t C h a i r. I k n o w.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h a t I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not what you mean?
M R N H L E K O : N o , t h a t i s n o t w h a t I m e a n . [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

O k a y I t h i n k s o m e b o d y w i l l b ri n g

y o u w a t e r.
Page 113 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO: No, it is fine.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We c a n co n t i n u e .
M R N H L E K O : We c a n p r o c e e d i n t h e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r. S o t h e r e p o rt b y
t h e R e f e re n c e G r o u p i s e n t i t l e d t h e . . . i t i s t i t l e d , s o rr y.
a

10

re p o rt

to

a d vi s e

the

m i n i st e r

on

procedures

and

i n t e r - g o ve r n m e n t

and

l e g i sl a t i o n ,

and

the

the

legality

of

Zimbabwean nationals by DPCI.
m u c h , si r. )

good

It is

governance

p r o t o c o l s,
d e p o rt a t i o n

national
of

the

So... (Thank you very

S o i n t h e i r re p o rt , t h e y g o i n t o a n u m b e r o f

i s s u e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y, i s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g f o r t h e w i t n e s s t o
sanitise the bottle with there or not?

I t h i n k s o m e b o d y m u st

j u st s a n i t i s e . I d o n o t w a n t t h e w i t n e s s t o l a t e r c o m p l a i n t h a t
h e c a m e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n f r e e o f C o vi d a n d h e l e f t t h e
C o m m i s si o n w i t h C o vi d . [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] N o , t h a n k y o u . I a m b l e s se d t h a t m y
b o t t l e h a s b e e n s a n i t i s e d b y a r e v e re n d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : O r a p ri e st .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s b l e s s e d w a t e r Mr N h l e k o . [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

S o t h a t i s w h a t t h e r e p o rt s a y s.
Page 114 of 201

But in the

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
b r i e f i n g , t h e y t h e n p o i n t a n d t h e y s a i d , “L o o k, t h e re a r e
t h e se i s s u e s o f t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s t h a t n e e d s t o
b e l o o k e d i n t o ”.
A n d I t h i n k e a rl i e r o n , w e h a v e s p o ke n t o t h e e n t i r e
p r o c e s s i n t e rm s o f w h a t t r a n s p i re d t h e n , t h e c o m m u n i c a t i o n
b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d M r M c B ri d e a n d so o n a ro u n d t h e s e
p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r s.
N o w. . . a n d b y t h e w a y, a s a m a t t e r o f p ri n ci p l e f r o m t h e
c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n ce p o i n t o f vi e w, I d i s a g r e e w i t h t h e
10

p o si t i o n t h a t M r H u l l e y s e e m s t o b e a d va n ci n g .
There

is

no

way

that

c o m m i s si o n e d t h e m se l ve s.
a ct i v a t e t h e m se l v e s.

We r k s m a n s

T h e r e i s n o w a y.

would

h a ve

T h e y di d n o t

T h e a ct u a l t r i g g e r i s. . . w a s m y s e l f a s

t h e m i n i st e r t h e re .
N o w t h e y w e r e d o i n g t h a t w o r k o n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n i st e r
o f P o l i c e a s p e r t h e i d e n t i f i e d Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e .

So we

s h o u l d n o t c re a t e a n i m p re s s i o n t h a t w h e n w e r e f e r t o a
We r k sm a n s

r e p o rt

is

because

I

have

talked

We r k sm a n s r e p o rt o u t o f t h e i r o w n v o l i t i o n .
20

about

the

T h e y j u st w e n t

i n t o t h a t m i n i st r y p o rt f o l i o o f p o l i c e a n d j u st d i d t h i s k i n d o f . . .
ki n d o f w o r k a n d s o .
N o w,

I

am

r e f e r ri n g

to

p ri n c i p l e s

of

corporate

g o ve r n a n ce b e c a u s e I t h i n k i n t h e r e , t h e f a ct o r s t h a t y o u
t h e n a s t h e p ri n ci p l e i n t h e i n st i t u t i o n , y o u t a k e o w n e r s h i p o f
t h a t r e p o rt a n d t h e re c o m m e n d a t i o n s a n d y o u , y o u k n o w,
Page 115 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t a k e i t o n f r o m t h a t p o i n t o f vi e w.
A n d s o . . . c o r r e ct l y s o H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r.

I am of the

vi e w a n d I f u l l y a g r e e w i t h t h i s p o s i t i o n t h a t s a y s, l e t u s t h e n
l o o k i n t o w h a t i s t h i s w o r k t h a t w a s d o n e i n re l a t i o n t o t h e
q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , M r H u l l e y. I f y o u d o n o t g e t i n t o t h a t ,
M r N h l e k o i s g o i n g t o st a rt t o b e l i e v e i n t h a t yo u a r e r u n n i n g
a w a y f r o m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: ...in dealing with that.
ADV HULLEY SC: Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I t h i n k e a rl y i n t h e m o rn i n g , h e

m a d e a s u g g e st i o n t h at y o u w a n t u s t o g o i n t o t h a t re p o rt
a n d y o u a r e n o t g e t t i n g t h e r e . [ l a u g h s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I p a rt i c u l a rl y g e t t o . . . j u st t o t h e Te r m s o f
R e f e r e n c e w h i ch a p p e a r . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

But

R e f e r e n c e M r H u l l e y.
20

before

you

get

to

the

L e t m e d e a l w i t h t h i s.

Te r m s

of

Mr Nhleko

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: I hear the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now the one thing that we know is that in

t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt w i t h re g a rd t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d i s i t . . .
a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a ? I a m n o t s u re .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
Page 116 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

Their recommendation was that there no

c ri m i n a l . . . t h e re s h o u l d b e n o c ri m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n .

There

s h o u l d b e n o d i s ci p l i n a r y a ct i o n . I s t h a t ri g h t ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
MR NHLEKO: ...that is what was said.
CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y.

re c o m m e n d a t i o n

i n cl u d e d

A l ri g h t .
that

B u t i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt , t h e
they

should

be

charged

c ri m i n a l l y a n d t h e re s h o u l d b e d i s c i p l i n a r y a ct i o n w i t h re g a r d
10

t o t h e m . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct s o .
CHAIRPERSON: ...as well.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o t h e r s.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

N o w, o n i t s o w n , b a s e d o n o u r

p r e vi o u s. . . m y p r e vi o u s i n t e ra ct i o n w i t h y o u e a rl i e r o n , I t a k e
it that, on its own, that should not be a problem in terms of a
g e n e r a l p ri n ci p l e .
20

MR NHLEKO: H’m.
CHAIRPERSON:

So what may have made you think that

there

something

might

be

untoward

here.

There

is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t n e e d s f u rt h e r i n v e st i g a t i o n , m i g h t w e l l b e
w h a t e l s e w a s c h a n g e d . I f y o u c a l l i t c h a n g e . I s t h a t ri g h t ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct .
Page 117 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:
going

into

the

W i t h u s g o i n g i n t o t h e r e p o rt w i t h o u t u s
r e p o rt ,

are

you

able

to

s a y,

“L o o k,

for

e x a m p l e , f o r m e i n r e g a r d t o t h e f i r st r e p o rt , t h i s i s w h a t t h e y
h a d s a i d b u t i n t h e s e c o n d re p o rt t h a t w a s n o l o n g e r t h e re ”.
T h a t s e e m s t o b e q u i t e i m p o rt a n t t o m e .

I a m sa y i n g , yo u

c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t w i t h o u t g o i n g t o t h e r e p o rt i f y o u a r e a b l e
t o b u t i f yo u w a n t t o g o i n t o t h e r e p o rt a n d sa y o n e , t w o ,
10

t h r e e a n d o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t w o rri e d m e a b o u t t h i s.
MR NHLEKO:

H’m.

H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, I w o u l d ve n t u r e t o

s a y t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e t o zo o m s t ra i g h t i n t o t h e t a b l e t h a t
w e h a v e p ro v i d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : B e c a u se t h e t a b l e w e h a v e p r o vi d e d , t h e n t e l l
y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ‘
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

. . . t h i s i s w h a t w a s s a i d i n t h i s p a rt i c u l a r

re p o rt .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO: And this is what appeared to be an alteration
on this other end and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

Shall we go there Mr Hulley?

And

t h e n p l e a s e , d o n o t f o r g e t t h e q u e s t i o n yo u w a n t e d t o a s k.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
Page 118 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u st w a n t e d u s t o cr o s s t h i s ri v e r a t t h i s

st a g e . W h i c h o n e ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We h a v e g o t t o g o t o B u n d l e Y 8 A . S o r r y.
P a r d o n , M r C h a i r. I t i s L E A n o w 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Bundle?
ADV HULLEY SC: LEA(1)
MR MOKHARI SC:

A ct u a l l y, w e d o h a v e . . . i t d e p e n d s.

d o i n h i s o w n a ff i d a vi t , h e h a s p u t a t a b l e .

We

Unless if you

w a n t t o r e f e r t o so m e t h i n g e l s e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n h i s o w n a ff i d a vi t ?
M R M O K H A R I S C : I n h i s o w n a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, what page?
M R M O K H A R I S C : I t st a rt s a t p a g e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , I t h o u g h t I h a v e s e e n i t i n h i s a ff i d a vi t

too.
M R M O K H A R I S C : Ye s. I t i s p a g e 5 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: The red numbers?
MR MOKHARI SC: The red number at the top.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F i ve , z e r o . O k a y. Ye s. N o .
20

M R M O K H A R I S C : Ye s, i t i s a t z e r o , f i ve , z e r o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , M r M o k h a ri .
MR MOKHARI SC:

Ye s, t h a t i s w h e r e i t st a rt s, p a r a g r a p h

150.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R M O K H A R I S C : Ye s.
Page 119 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A t p a g e 5 0 , t h e re i t s a y s “d e l e t i o n

o f e vi d e n c e f r o m t h e f i r st r e p o rt ” .
c o l u m n i t i s I P I D R e p o rt 1 .

And then on the left

O n t h e s e c o n d co l u m n i t i s I P I D

R e p o rt 2 .
MR NHLEKO:

I n r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t C h a i r, m e a n i n g I P I D

R e p o rt 1 i s 2 2 J a n u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s.
M R N H L E K O : A n d I P I D R e p o rt 2 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
10

M R N H L E K O : . . . i s 1 8 M a r ch .
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . 1 8 M a r c h . Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, t h a t i s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f i t .

Mr

H u l l e y, d o y o u w a n t t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: ...take it and run with it.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I f I u n d e r st a n d yo u co r r e ct l y si r.

What

y o u h a v e d o n e o v e r h e r e i s, y o u h a v e b a si c a l l y c u t f r o m t h e
re p o rt o f We r k sm a n s a n d y o u h a v e p a st e i n t o y o u r a ff i d a vi t .
20

Wo u l d t h a t b e c o r re ct ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct y o u r H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e re h a s b e e n n o . . . y o u h a v e n o t

added

from

or

deleted

a s s e s sm e n t ?

the

We r k s m a n s

re p o rt

or

their

I n o t h e r w o r d s, y o u h a ve a c c e p t e d l o c k, st o c k

a n d b a rr e l ?
Page 120 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : N o , I h a v e n o t d e l e t e d a n yt h i n g .
ADV HULLEY SC:
page 51.

O ka y.

S o l e t u s c o n si d e r i t a t t h e t o p o f

O n p a g e 5 0 , yo u st a rt w i t h t h e a n a l y s e s b u t t h e r e

i s n o a n a l y se s t h a t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 5 0 .

Page 51 is where

t h e a n a l y s e s b e g i n s. Wo u l d y o u l i k e t o t a k e u s t h r o u g h i t .
MR

NHLEKO:

Chairperson.

No,

thank

you

ve r y

What I would attempt to do.

much

Honourable

I would deal with

t h e c o l u m n o n t h e f i r st r e p o rt a n d t h e n t a k e t h a t l e t t e r t h e n
a cr o s s t o t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : T h e . . . o n t h e f i r st c o l u m n , t h e f i r st re p o rt , t h e
re p o rt o f t h e 2 2 n d o f J a n u a ry, o n p a g e 9 w h i ch i s a st a t e m e n t
b y a . . . I t h i n k a co l o n e l a t t h e t i m e , N d a n d u l e n i R i c h a r d
Madilonga.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
MR NHLEKO:

T h a t t h e l a w st a t e s a s f o l l o w s i n t h e r e l e v a n t

p a r a g ra p h s:
“S u p e ri n t e n d e n t N c u b e t o l d h i m t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o
P r e t o ri a t o m e e t G e n e r a l D ra m a t . H e s a i d t o h i m t h a t
20

m a y b e h e kn e w a b o u t t h e ch i e f s u p e ri n t e n d e n t w h o
h a d b e e n m u rd e r e d .
H e s a i d t h a t t h e s u s p e ct s w h o w e r e i n G a u t e n g a n d
h e h a d o rg a n i s e d w i t h G e n e r a l D ra m a t t o a s si st t h e m
i n t r a ci n g t h e s u s p e ct s. . . ”
T h a t p a ra g r a p h s t a y s t h e s a m e o n t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt .
Page 121 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
T h e se c o n d p a r a g ra p h i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt , t h e n g o e s o n a n d i t
s a y s:
“ H e w i l l st a t e t h a t h e t o l d S u p e ri n t e n d e n t N c u b e t h a t
he

has

to

v e ri f y

with

his

seniors

about

the

number

of

General

Dramat

by

a r r a n g e m e n t s.
He

was

g i ve n

Superintendent

a

Ncube.

He

called

Colonel

R a t s o n a n i ( ? ) [ 0 0 : 1 3 : 4 2 ] t o v e ri f y t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d
she
10

re q u e st e d

that

he

should

call

B ri g a d i e r

M a g u s h u ( ? ) [ 0 0 : 1 3 : 5 0 ] w h o w a s t h e P r o vi n ci a l H e a d
P r o t e ct i o n a n d S e c u r i t y S e r vi c e s.
He then called him on the cell phone and explained
t o h i m t h a t t h e r e a r e p o l i c e f ro m Z i m b a b w e w h o a r e
intending to have a meeting with General Dramat.
B ri g a d i e r M a g u s h u t o l d h i m t h a t h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f
t h e vi si t b u t i f t h e p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e y a r e
g o i n g t o m e e t t h e g e n e r a l , h e s h o u l d ca l l G e n e r a l
D r a m a t d i r e ct l y.
He phoned General Dramat on his cell phone and he

20

re s p o n d e d

by

s a yi n g

that

he

is

aware

of

the

Z i m b a b w e a n P o l i c e a n d h e m u st l e t t h e m c o m e . . . ”
That

is

Colonel

Ndanduleni

R i c h a rd

Madilonga

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : . . . o n r e p o rt 1 . N o w o n r e p o rt 2 . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
Page 122 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M R N H L E K O : O n re p o rt 2 C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
MR NHLEKO:

T h e p a r a g ra p h t h a t f o l l o w s t h e a b o v e .

In

o t h e r w o r d s, t h e a b o v e i s t h e f i r st p a r a g ra p h a s st a t e d , h a s
been deleted.

I t i s t h e n r e p l a c e d b y t h e f o l l o w i n g w o rd s i n

there:
“For

the

p e ri o d

of

two

w e e k s,

he

n e ve r

heard

a n yt h i n g f r o m S u p e ri n t e n d e n t N c u b e a n d h i s g r o u p .
10

After

two

w e e k s,

he

re c e i v e d

a

call

from

Superintendent Ncube who told him that he was in
town and he wanted to say goodbye.
H e w e n t t o t o w n a n d m e t w i t h t h e m i n f ro n t o f To p s
Bottle Store.
T h e y b o u g h t l i q u o r a n d t h e y l e f t t o t h e b o r d e r.
d i d n o t e s co rt t h e m .

He

Th e y w e n t t o t h e b o r d e r a n d

c ro s s e d t o Zi m b a b w e . . . ”
S o e ff e ct i ve l y, t h e p a r a g r a p h i n t h e st a t e m e n t b y C o l o n e l
M a d i l o n g a w h i c h st a rt s w i t h “ h e w i l l st a t e ”, t h a t p a r a g r a p h i n
20

i t s e n t i r e t y i s d e l e t e d a n d re p l a c e d b y w h a t I h a v e j u st r e a d
o u t . N o w a t p a g e 2 1 , p a ra g r a p h 5 . 2 w h i c h r e a d s:
“S u c c e s s r e p o rt d a t e d t h e 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . T h i s
re p o rt i s a d d re s s e d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m so r ry.

I a m s o rr y.

p a g e 5 3 ? W h a t p a g e a r e yo u o n ?
Page 123 of 201

Are you now at

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

It is the following page from where I have

st a rt e d o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e st a rt e d a t p a g e 5 1 a n d t h e n . . .
M R N H L E K O : W h a t i s yo u r. . . ?
ADV HULLEY SC: It is 53 Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u h a v e g o t t o l o o k a t t h e t o p ri g h t a t

t h e c o r n e r.
MR NHLEKO:
10

a p o l o g i e s.

N o , p a rt o f t h e p r o b l e m C h a i r, i t i s m y

T h e f i l e i n q u e st i o n . . . . I t h i n k t h e y a r e l o o ki n g i t

up for me.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R N H L E K O : I a m u si n g m y st a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s.

S o i t i s. . . t h e st a t e m e n t i s o u t si d e o f

y o u r p a g i n a t i o n . L e t m e p u t i t t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

S o m a yb e f o r p u r p o s e s o f c l a ri f yi n g t h a t

q u e st i o n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:
file?
h a ve .
Oh,

J a , h a s s o m e b o d y g i ve n t h e w i t n e s s t h e

T h e f i l e . . . t h e w i t n e s s m u st h a v e t h e sa m e f i l e t h a t w e
E a c h t i m e I a m g i ve n a f i l e , h e m u st b e g i v e n a f i l e .
they

will

give

it

to

you.

Th e y

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: No, no, no. It is there.
Page 124 of 201

will

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . g i ve i t j u st t o yo u n o w.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s, t h e y a r e v e r y g o o d t o m e H o n o u r a b l e

Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
MR NHLEKO:

I m u st st a t e .

organised

a

me

cup

of

He is the only person that

co ff e e

d u ri n g

lunch

at

this

C o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

S o t h i s C o m m i s si o n i s n o t s o

b a d , h e y ? [ l a u g h s]
10

MR NHLEKO:

[ l a u g h s]

I su p p o s e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] m e m b e r s o f

t h e C o m m i s si o n . [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

And

I

s u sp e ct

that

the

C h a i r p e r s o n m i g h t h a ve b e e n o n e o f t h e m .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

A n d b y t h e w a y, M r H u l l e y a l s o . . . I m e a n ,

re a l l y. I g o t a c h i c k e n a n d m a y o s a n d w i c h ye st e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] J a .
MR NHLEKO: What page is it?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , t h e c o l u m n s st a rt a t p a g e 5 0 b u t t h e

a ct u a l p a ra g r a p h s st a rt a t p a g e 5 1 .
M R N H L E K O : O h , o f m y st a t e m e n t . S o rr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O f y o u r st a t e m e n t , j a .

B u t w h e n I sa y 5 0

a n d 5 1 , I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e re d n u m b e r s a t t h e t o p c o r n e r
of each page.
Page 125 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

So I have already dealt with the page

51.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, I have already dealt with page 51.

So

b a si c a l l y, I w e n t o v e r t o p a g e 5 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , yo u r e a d p a g e 5 2 a s w e l l .
MR NHLEKO: Right. So I am now on page 53 of that file.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So... so... ja, ja.
M R N H L E K O : S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

But before you proceed.

I j u st w a n t t o g e t

t h i s b e ca u s e I d i d n o t g e t i t , j u st t o c h e c k i t .

When you talk

a b o u t a l t e r a t i o n s o f c e rt a i n p a r a g r a p h s, y o u a r e n o t t a l ki n g
a b o u t a l t e r a t i o n o f t h e a ct u a l st a t e m e n t o r st a t e m e n t s o f t h e
w i t n e s s e s b u t y o u a re t a l ki n g a b o u t a l t e r a t i o n o f I P I D ’s
re p o rt b a s e d o n w h a t t h e st a t e m e n t s o f w i t n e s s e s s a y ?
t h a t ri g h t ?

Is

I n o t h e r w o r d s, i f i n M a d i l o n g a f o r a n e x a m p l e

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t a c h a n g e o f ce rt a i n

p a r a g ra p h s, w e a r e n o t t a l ki n g a b o u t , s a yi n g h e h a d s i g n e d a
st a t e m e n t w h i ch s a i d A , B , C , D .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON:

Somebody

in...

Page 126 of 201

at

IPID

went

to

that

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
st a t e m e n t a n d r e m o v e d a p a r a g ra p h a n d p u t i n a p a r a . . .
a n o t h e r p a ra g r a p h i n a st a t e m e n t t h a t h a d b e e n s i g n e d . Yo u
a r e si m p l e s a yi n g t h a t i n I P I D ’s r e p o rt w h e r e t h e y re f e r r e d t o
M r M a d i l o n g a , t h i s i s w h a t t h e y s a i d a n d t h e n i n t h e f i r st
re p o rt .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i n t h e s e c o n d re p o rt , t h e y h a v e p u t i n

s o m e t h i n g e l se i n t h e r e p o rt , n o t i n t h e st a t e m e n t .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s e x a ct l y t h a t . I a m . . .
10

t h e st a t e m e n t s w e re c o n t a i n e d , I t h i n k, i n t h e d o c ke t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s.
M R N H L E K O : T h e y si g n e d a s t h e y w e re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

B u t i n t h e r e p o rt s, i n t h e p r o d u ct i o n o f t h e

re p o rt a n d / o r re p o rt s, t h e n w e h a d t h i s p a rt i cu l a r d i r e ct , s o rt
o f t h e e xt r a ct s f ro m t h e st a t e m e n t s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s.

O k a y.

N o , I j u st w a n t e d u s t o

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I t h i n k w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e t h e n .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y yo u c a n c o n t i n u e .
M R N H L E K O : I c a n co n t i n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , co n t i n u e .
MR NHLEKO:

S o p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . . . p a r a g ra p h 5 . 2 r e a d s t h e
Page 127 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
s u c c e s s r e p o rt d a t e d t h e 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . T h i s r e p o rt i s
addressed

to

General

Dramat,

Setwayo(?)

and

To k a

[00:21:21].
T h e r e l e v a n t p a ra g r a p h s o f t h e s u c c e s s r e p o rt r e a d s a s
follows and I quote this paragraph:
“ T h e r e p o rt b a s e re f e r e n c e 1 4 0 2 / 0 1 a n d w a s s e n t b y
C o l o n e l L e o n i e Ve r st e r. . . ”
P a r a g r a p h A . 1 . o f t h e r e p o rt st a t e s t h a t :
“O n t h e 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , G e n e r a l D r a m a t h e l d a
10

m e e t i n g w i t h t h e Zi m b a b w e a n P o l i c e a t t h e D C P
o ff i c e s a b o u t t h e n a t i o n a l s w h o s h o t a n d ki l l e d o n e o f
t h e i r s e n i o r o ff i c e r s. . . ”
P a r a g r a p h 3 st a t e s t h a t :
“Captain Maluleke(?) [00:22:03] was tasked to trace
a n a r r e st , t h e s a i d n a t i o n a l s.

T h e re p o rt a l s o c o v e r s

t h e a r re st o f G o r d o n N c u b e a n d a p p r e ci a t i o n o f T R T
m e m b e r s a n d m e m b e r s o f C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e . . . ”
T h a t p a r a g r a p h i n t h e se c o n d r e p o r t i s d e l e t e d a n d t h e
p a r a g ra p h
20

beginning

with

the

re p o rt ,

bears

reference

1 4 0 2 / 0 1 f r o m t h e f i r st r e p o rt i s d e l e t e d i n t h e s e co n d re p o rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : A t p a r a g ra p h 2 1 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
Nhleko.

Ye s, b e f o r e w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 1 M r

I j u st w a n t u s t o . . . I f i r st w a n t t o p ut t h i s q u e st i o n

b e f o r e w e m o v e o n b e c a u s e i t m i g h t a ff e ct h o w I l o o k a t t h e
Page 128 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
re st o f t h e m a t t e r s i n t h e c o l u m n s.
I f t h e p o si t i o n w a s t h a t t h e st a t e m e n t s o f t h e w i t n e s s e s
w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e R e n d i t i o n m a t t e r w e re p r o vi d e d t o y o u a n d
they were in the docket and then there was this report which
was

supposed

to

be

based

on

those

statements

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: Right?
CHAIRPERSON:

...I would take it that you would not have

m a d e a n y d e ci si o n i n r e g a r d t o t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s
10

w i t h o u t l o o ki n g a t t h e a ct u a l st a t e m e n t s t h e m se l ve s.
W h e n I sa y w i t h o u t l o o ki n g a t t h e m , i t m a y b e t h a t yo u
w o u l d n o t p e r s o n a l l y l o o k a t t h e m b u t i f yo u a re n o t g o i n g t o
personally look at them, I would imagine that you would get
s o m e b o d y w i t h i n t h e m i n i st r y t o l o o k a t t h e m a n d m a y b e g i v e
y o u a n e x e c u t i ve s u m m a r y o r s o m e t h i n g .
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

A m I ri g h t i n t h i n ki n g a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s ?

T h a t y o u w o u l d n o t m a k e a d e ci si o n , f o r e x a m p l e , t h a t
s o m e b o d y m u st b e su s p e n d e d p u re l y o n t h e b a si s o f t h e
20

I P I D r e p o rt w i t h o u t g o i n g i n t o t h e st a t e m e n t s t h e m s e l v e s ?
MR NHLEKO:

B u t C h a i r, t h a t i s. . . I t h i n k h e r e w e m a y h a v e

a l i t t l e b i t o f a d i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h yo u a r o u n d t h e r e . M a y b e a
d i ff e r e n t u n d e r st a n d i n g t o t h a t , I d o n o t k n o w.
i s.

But the point

T h a t i s w h y I h a d t o co m m i s si o n , f o r a n e x a m p l e ,

We r k sm a n s t o t h e n s a y, “ D o s o m e d e t a i l w o r k ”.
Page 129 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
A n d o f c o u r s e , o n t h e b a si s o f w h i c h t h e y h a d t o a l s o . . .
t h e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t t h e y w o u l d d o . . . d e a l w i t h t h i s ki n d o f
w o r k w i t h o u t , f o r a n e x a m p l e , h a vi n g t h e t w o r e p o rt s b u t a l s o
t h e f i l e a b o v e t h a t , t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e
re l e v a n t i n f o r m a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

let

me

put

it

this

w a y.

My

u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t y o u r co n c e r n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, C h a i r ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

. . . a t s o m e st a g e p o s si b l e , m a yb e b e f o r e

y o u r e f e rr e d t h e m a t t e r t o We r k sm a n s, y o u r c o n c e r n w a s t h a t
t h e r e m a y h a ve b e e n a n a t t e m p t o n t h e p a rt o f o n e o r m o r e
p e o p l e a t I P I D t o p r e v e n t y o u t a ki n g d i s ci p l i n a r y a ct i o n
a g a i n st G e n e r a l D ra m a t a n d m a yb e G e n e r a l S i b i y a .
O r t o p r e v e n t t h e N PA f r o m c o m i n g t o a d e ci si o n t h a t
General Dramat and General Sibiya should be prosecuted
and that is why there was this so-called alteration to move
away from

a

recommendation

that

said

they

should

be

c h a r g e d cri m i n a l l y.
T h e y s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d i n t e r m s o f d e p a rt m e n t a l l y t o a
20

p o si t i o n w h e r e t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt s a i d t h e y sh o u l d n o t b e
c h a r g e d cri m i n a l l y. T h e y s h o u l d n o t b e d i s ci p l i n e d .
B u t m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t y o u w e re c o n c e r n e d t h a t
there

may

well

have

been

that

intent

on

the

p a rt

of

s o m e b o d y, o n e o r m o re p e o p l e a t I P I D a n d t h a t i s p a rt o f t h e
re a s o n w h y y o u w a n t e d t h i s t o b e i n v e st i g a t e d .
Page 130 of 201

Is my

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
u n d e r st a n d i n g c o r re ct ?
M R N H L E K O : N o , t h a t i s c o rr e ct C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s c o r r e ct ?
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w f o r m e , t h e q u e st i o n t h a t a ri s e s i s i f

t h e st a t e m e n t s o f t h e w i t n e s s e s, i n cl u d i n g M a d i l o n g a i n t h i s
case,

which

are

re a l l y

the

i n st ru m e n t s

that

have

the

e vi d e n c e .
If
10

they

have

the

e vi d e n ce

that

so m e b o d y

m u st

be

c h a r g e d , t h o s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t c o n t a i n t h e e v i d e n ce .
I f t h e re i s n o e vi d e n c e t h a t s o m e b o d y b e c h a r g e d , t h a t i s. . .
t h o se a r e t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e .
N o w, I w o n d e r w h y i t c o u l d b e t h o u g h t t h a t s o m e b o d y a t
I P I D b y c h a n g i n g s o m e t h i n g i n t h e i r re p o rt w i t h o u t t h e a ct u a l
d o cu m e n t s t h a t c o n t a i n t h e e vi d e n c e , b e i n g c h a n g e d .
W h y i t w a s t h o u g h t t h a t s o m e b o d y c o u l d b e t r yi n g m a y b e
t o d e f e a t t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e o r so m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t , w h e n t h e
a ct u a l st a t e m e n t s re m a i n e d t h e s a m e .
B e c a u s e I w o u l d h a ve t h o u g h t t h a t e v e n t h o u g h t h e

20

re p o rt s a r e t h e r e , t h e

d e c i si o n

m a k e r s,

whether it

was

y o u r s e l f i n r e g a r d t o d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s o r t h e N PA i n
re g a r d t o c ri m i n a l m a t t e r s, I d o n o t s e e t h e m m a k i n g a
d e ci si o n w i t h o u t l o o ki n g a t t h e st a t e m e n t s.
And

if...

and

IPID,

I

would

imagine,

would

h a ve

u n d e r st o o d t h a t , y o u k n o w, t h a t w e h a v e g o t o u r re p o rt b u t
Page 131 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
t h e d e ci si o n s ca n n o t b e t a k e n j u st b y. . . o n t h e b a s e o f o u r
re p o rt o n l y.

T h e d e ci si o n m a k e r s w i l l l o o k a t t h e a ct u a l

st a t e m e n t s a s w e l l .
A n d t h e r e f o re , i f t h e y l o o k a t t h e st a t e m e n t s, t h e y w i l l
s e e t h e t r u e e vi d e n c e o f w h a t i t s a y s a n d i f t h e r e i s a c o n f l i ct
b e t w e e n t h e st a t e m e n t s a n d t h e r e p o rt , t h e y w o u l d re l y o n
t h e st a t e m e n t s b e c a u se t h e c o m p i l e r s o f t h e re p o rt - w e a r e
not witnesses to the events, to the incidents.

The actual

witnesses are the people who signed the statements.
10

MR NHLEKO:

No, I hear you, honourable Chairperson, I

am certain that maybe at a particular point I did not maybe
look at it that way but remember that what you have just
said still does not necessarily resolve the issue. The issue
would still be if in the original file you still have the
original statements that say something else, why then in
your report which then accompanies a particular file the
articulation is different from – to that very same issue.

I

w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y t a k e i t a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well, it might change, if one looks –

somebody might give me a wrong summary of a certain
document, so I read the summary and then I go to the
document.

When I read the document I realise that it may

have some mistakes, it is not accurate but if I have access
t o b o t h , I w i l l t e l l t h e m , y o u k n o w, t h i s s u m m a r y o f y o u r s i f
flawed, this is not what is in the report and I might leave it
Page 132 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
at that or I might say well, maybe next time I am not going
to rely on your summary because it looks like you cannot
give me a summary that I can rely on but if it is – it is
different, it seem s to m e, if all I am going to have is his
summary but if I am going to have available to me the
statements as well and I am expected to read them before I
make

the

decision,

I

will

pick

up

that

there

is

some

inaccuracies on his summary but then once I have picked
that up I will rely on the statements and not on his report.
10

A c t u a l l y, I c a n t h r o w i t a w a y a n d r e l y o n t h e s t a t e m e n t s .
MR NHLEKO:

A g a i n , I h e a r y o u , C h a i r, a n d I a p p r e c i a t e

t h a t , e x c e p t t h a t t h a t i t i s m u c h m o r e s i m p l e r.

Suppose in

y o u r o f f i c e y o u h a v e a r e p o r t w r i t e r, s o y o u r r e p o r t w r i t e r
deletes information that is brought to you.

Okay?

Yo u a r e

bound to react far stronger than you have suggested to
t h e n s a y i n g b u t t h i s s u m m a r y o f y o u r i s n o t o k a y, w a n t t o
adjust this that are here and there, so you are bound to
ask a different question.

The question would be why did

you delete this information?
20

Yo u s e e ?

So I am then

saying it – to still require you to demand accountability
around that issue because then there is the element of the
pollution of facts, amongst other things.

And it would – if

that was somewhat allowed to have a – let us say you are
provided with that summary with deleted information it
would mislead you as the principal.
Page 133 of 201

I am just making an

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
example.
So much as I hear the example that you have just
spoke to, I think it is a much simpler kind of an example as
opposed to the kind of matter that we are dealing with
here.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, I am quite happy that we look at

that but maybe it is good that you put it that way to say
maybe my example is simpler because part of what I am
trying to understand is why – why is it that something that
10

on the face of this appears or may appear to have been a
simple thing?

Why did it end up being such a big almost

n a t i o n a l i s s u e , y o u k n o w, t h i s t h i n g a b o u t t h e s e r e p o r t s ?
So it is part of what I am trying to understand and that is
part of the reason why I put this question so that I can get
your perspective to say this is how I looked at it.

When I

say this, this is what it said to me and as a result of that –
because this is what it said to me, this is the decision I
made and this is how I dealt with it, so it is part of trying to
look at that.
20

But I interrupted while you were comparing

simply because I wanted to get this understanding from
you, which I have got.
MR NHLEKO:

B u t l e t m e j u s t a d d q u i c k l y, C h a i r, t o t h e n

say perhaps also when we deal with this section and deal
with the process as well it would be just a question of the
two columns.

I think most of the thing will also become
Page 134 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
c l e a r e r, y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

J a , o k a y.

A s a n d w h e n w e p r o c e e d , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Proceed. No, let us proceed.

No, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
by

Captain

O k a y.
Paragraph 21 – that paragraph 5.3, emails

Maluleke.

The

email

quoted,

states

the

following:
10

“He sent emails circulating more than 24 photos of
both

the

suspects

arrested

involved in the operation.

and

the

members

The emails were sent to

t h e PA o f D r a m a t , P h u m l a , Z i m b a b w e P o l i c e a n d
members of Crime Intelligence.”
That is what the first report says.
the

so-called

second

report

The same paragraph in

does

not

mention

all

the

individuals to which the emails were sent to. It reads:
“He sent emails circulating more than 24 photos of
both
20

the

suspects

arrested

involved in the operation.
Zimbabwean

Police

trying

and

the

members

He sent email to the
to

find

out

how

they

travelled back home and that he is still tracing the
remaining suspects.”
So sam e paragraph but two different contents, okay?

On

page 22 of the first report the letter to stakeholders dated
Page 135 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
the 20th …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, b e f o r e w e g o t t o p a r a g r a p h

22.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

I think what you have just read related

to paragraph 21, is that right?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t i s t h e w r o n g p a g e , p a r a g r a p h 5 . 3

of the first report.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja, page 21.

If you take what was said

in the first report there, page 21, about Mr Maluleke and
what was – page said there in the second report:
“On the understanding that what was said in the
first report was specific in terms of who exactly the
emails were sent to.”
B u t – o h , o k a y, w e l l m a y b e I s h o u l d s a y w h a t i t d o e s n o t –
w h a t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t d o e s n o t s a y, i t d o e s n o t m a k e a
reference to say – it does not say the emails were sent to
t h e PA o f D r a m a t , P h u m l a .
MR NHLEKO:

20

Right.

CHAIRPERSON:

The second report says he sent emails

to Zimbabwean Police.
Intelligence

and

Mr

So it leaves out members of Crime
Dramat’s

PA

which

I

specifically

mentioned in the first report, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

That is the difference between the two.
Page 136 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

That is the difference.

CHAIRPERSON:

Now is it not true that any decision-

maker who having read the second report and even being
aware of the first report maybe, at the time of reading the
statements before making the decision, he or she would
come across exactly the same information.
MR NHLEKO:

I think it takes us back to the point you

raised earlier on, is it not, Chair?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

Ye s , i t d o e s , I a m t r y i n g

to connect.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

But I think your answer would be yes, he

would come across the same information in the statements.
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u m e a n i n t h e o r i g i n a l s t a t e m e n t s ?

I

think that was your point earlier on, to then say you have
the pack of original statements somewhere.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

MR NHLEKO:

But in the production of the report he

…[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s – j a , I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u

call original statements. I do not want to call them original
statements.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Because it may give the impression that

there are other unoriginal statements so I am just saying
Page 137 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
statements.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

So what I am suggesting to you is

that even though in the second report on page 21 it is not
s t a t e d t h a t h e s e n t e m a i l s t o M r D r a m a t ’ s PA a n d m e m b e r s
of the Crime Intelligence, it is only said he sent emails to
the Zimbabwean Police.

T h e d e c i s i o n - m a k e r, w h e t h e r i t i s

N PA o r y o u r s e l f , w h o w o u l d r e a d t h e s t a t e m e n t s w o u l d
come across the same information mainly that statements –
10

e m a i l s w e r e s e n t t o t h e PA o f M r D r a m a t a s w e l l a s t o
members of the Crime Intelligence.
MR NHLEKO:

O h , o k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

That is the suggestion I make.

I hear your point.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .
Save to say that you still remain with the

question, why is that matter put differently in the others.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
20

Ja, no, no, that …[intervenes]

In the report.

CHAIRPERSON:

I accept that but we are on the same

page that the authors of the second report would know that
anyone

who

actually

get

took
the

care
full

to

read

picture

the

because

decision.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.
Page 138 of 201

statements
the

would

making

the

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

is that right?

I h e a r y o u , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

M r C h a i r, p e r h a p s I c a n – i f I c a n j u s t

explore some of that because I was going to leave it until
the end but if I could explore some aspects of that just
v e r y b r i e f l y.

What we understand from your testimony thus

f a r, M r N h l e k o , i s t h a t t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y r e p o r t r e a d i n a
p a r t i c u l a r w a y, w h i c h w a s d i f f e r e n t f r o m t h e 1 8 M a r c h
10

report, the 22 January report itself, nothing was deleted
from that report, it still remained in existence.

The 18

March report had words that were similar to the 22 January
report but some words have been removed, other words
have been added and the recom mendation was different.
So you have got two reports, not one report with words
deleted from the report, correct?
MR NHLEKO:

J a , t h a t i s c o r r e c t . Yo u a r e g e t t i n g i t r i g h t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And the 22 – the 18 March report does

not purport to be the 22 January report, does it?
20

In other

words, it does not say that – on the report itself, it is not
w r i t t e n 2 2 J a n u a r y, i t i s w r i t t e n 1 8 M a r c h .
MR NHLEKO:

No, I am losing you there.

I mean, you

seem now to be suggesting that – does that question take
us back to the question whether we should be talking about
two reports or one report?
Page 139 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

E x a c t l y, t h i s r e p o r t , j a .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

But it may be important but I just

wanted to make sure that that is where it takes us to.
MR NHLEKO:

A n d I w o u l d s t i l l s u g g e s t , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r,

that look, let us deal with these particular inconsistencies.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

No, no, we will, we will, ja.
And then, of course, we will come to the

actual debate and discussion on these issues.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

No, no, no, that is fine.
And of course I think for instance as and

w h e n , y o u k n o w, I h a v e b e e n p r e s i d i n g I h e a r c e r t a i n
a r t i c u l a t i o n s f r o m t h e s i d e o f t h e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
So – and of course I may agree, I may not

agree with …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , o f c o u r s e , y e s .
T h a t w i l l b e p a r t o f , y o u k n o w, f u r t h e r

engagement this one, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s . N o , n o , i t i s p a r t o f – j a , i t i s – a s I

see it, my approach is, certainly from my side, I am trying
to get verifications.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Because I want to be able to see if I can

see the matter from the angle of the IPID witnesses and
then also look at it from your side as Minister in charge of
Page 140 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
Police.

So, therefore, for these clarifications.

But I think

let us go through - maybe the sooner we finalise what the
alterations were…
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
A bit better and then we can come back

and deal with issues arising from that.
MR NHLEKO:
C h a i r.

No, thank you very much, honourable

On page 22, a letter to stakeholders dated the 20

August 2012 the letter states:
10

“Letter to stakeholders”
Dated 20 August 2012.

The letter was generated the same

day indicating that:
“In August 2010 General Sibiya and General Dramat
went to Zimbabwe to discuss matters of cooperation
on

cross

border

crimes.

General

Sibiya

was

appointed as the coordinator on the cooperation
issue between the two countries.”
Other letters

about the arrests of Zimbabwean national in

connection with the murder of Zimbabwean Police refers to
20

the cooperation agreed during the same meeting.”
Now on what is paginated as page 21 on the second
report

–

and

in

this

report

the

names

of

the

people

involved in the cooperation with the Zimbabwean Police are
no longer mentioned.

The letter reads thus in the report,

same title:
Page 141 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
“Letter to stakeholders”
Dated 20 August 2012. I quote:
“The letter was generated the same day indicating
to

the

trip

to

Zimbabwe

to

discuss

matters

of

cooperation on cross-border crimes.”
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .
That is how that – now we are in the

second report.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

That paragraph looks like that.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Ye s .

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Before we proceed I think if in regard to

that particular alteration there is something that we need
to deal with, let us deal with it as we go along because
maybe if we wait until the end it m ight be difficult but then
we just deal with – let me just say to you, Mr Nhleko, on
the face of it, it seems to me – I mean, in the first report
you have quite a detailed paragraph or a portion whereas
20

in the second one – in the second report you just have one
sentence which could mean that somebody decided why do
you have to put in all these details, try and condense
yourself,
report.

for

argum ent’s

sake,

try

and

condense

your

I mean, some people are quite particular and I

guess in this case remember that the first report, as I
Page 142 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
understand the position, Mr Khuba had done it without, if I
r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, w i t h o u t a n y i n p u t f r o m M r S e s o k o .

I may

be mistaken, but certainly without any input I think from Mr
McBride because Mr McBride had not arrived at IPID yet
and then the third – the second report it appears that all
three of them got involved.
is going on in my mind.

So I am just mentioning what

Yo u m i g h t w i s h t o s a y s o m e t h i n g

about them.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
10

MR NHLEKO:
ADV

Chair …[intervenes]

No …[intervenes]

MOKHARI

SC:

S o r r y,

C h a i r,

maybe

before

he

responds.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

I was just scrolling down this, I see

that is very long, it is a very long table.
CHAIRPERSON:

So you suggest that we go through it.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Ja, if he is going to go through it, the

whole of it and – I just want to find out from the evidence
leaders, that if – then, I mean, if the position – because
20

when I looked at the report, I mean, the table, the first
report and the second report.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
report

–

I

mean,

What is there is that the second

where

in

the

first

reference to General Dramat and Sibiya?
Page 143 of 201

report

there

was

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

The second report removes them.

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

So it does not refer to them.

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

So if the evidence leaders agree that

first – and the first report and the second report are
identical.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Except that the second report has in

certain instances where there is reference to Dramat and
Sibiya, they removed that part.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

And if – and that is accepted

because these are tables that comes from the report of
Werksm ans.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Then there is no need for Mr Nhleko

then to go through the issue, then will be really at the end
20

as to why Dramat and Sibiya’s nam es were rem oved.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

And then whether that constituted

misconduct or not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

No, I think it links with a

question that I had asked earlier but I think we had some
Page 144 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
discussion, Mr Nhleko and I, and I ended up not going back
to it.

What I had sought to ask was, in terms of the

alterations, what really did you regard as important, you
k n o w, y o u s a y o n e , t h e n y o u s a y A , B , C , t h a t i s w h a t w a s
important, there may have been other alterations but they
w e r e , i n m y v i e w, n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e .

This is what was

of concern to me.
Now it may be that it is exactly what Mr Mokhari has
been saying, it may be that it is something else. If you say
10

look, every reference to General Dramat, which had been
in the first report from a certain page to a certain page was
removed, that is what was of concern to me, then we can
deal with that and I think there may be merit in what Mr
Mokhari is saying to say there may be no need to go
through everything if you are able to capture what was of
concern to all the alterations.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o , t h a n k s C h a i r, I ’ l l d o , j u s t f o u r a r e a s
if not five somewhere there just to illustrate this point.

In

the first report, now let’s go to page 60, I think, of Mr
20

Nhleko’s statement.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Page 60, ja.

O k a y, n o w i n t h e f i r s t r e p o r t – I ’ m n o t s u r e

whether the Chair is following.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e a t t h e b o t t o m p a r t o f p a g e 6 0

where it says, Khuba’s findings…[intervenes].
Page 145 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

Oh, ja, thanks very much page 29 and other

things of Dramat’s cell phone records is recorded by Khuba
as – he says, that is Khuba, these are his words,
“An evaluation of the above findings, in the entire
said record General Dramat requested for the period of the
2 0 t h 2 0 1 0 t o 2 8 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 , t h e n u m b e r 0 1 5 5 3 4 6 3 0 0
only

appears

once

which

rules

out

any

form

of

communication before the 4th of November 2010 and after
the said date. This supports his version that he called
10

Lieutenant

General

Dramat

in

connection

with

the

Zimbabwean policy”,
And then in the second report, on the same issue of
Khuba’s

findings

on

Dramat

there’s

a

complete

d e l e t i o n t h e r e , n o t h i n g i s s a i d , o k a y, t h a t i s o n e
example.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:
operation

The second example on the issue of the

Khuba

made

the

following

findings

in

this

respect, in his words,
20

“An evaluation of the above findings the success
report

signed

by

Leonie

Ve r s t e r

was

traced

to

Lieutenant Colonel Maluleka’s laptop as picked from
the

retrieved

deleted

data.

The

report

was

a m e n d e d o n 2 6 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 a n d w h a t a p p e a r s t o
b e , t h a t i s m e s a y i n g 3 1 s t J a n u a r y 2 0 11 , b e f o r e i t
Page 146 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
could

be

emailed

to

a

female

o f f i c e r,

Wa r r a n t

O f f i c e r T h a b i s o M a f a t l a o n t h e 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11
at 14h32.

There is no m aterial difference between

the document retrieved from the laptop and that
found at the Hawks offices during the investigation.
T h i s p r o v e s t h a t L e o n i e Ve r s t e r d i d n o t g e n e r a t e
success report but only signed the report drafted by
Colonel Maluleka, the date of the meeting between
the Zimbabwean Police and General Dramat which
10

took place on the 5th of November 2010 coincide
with the date on the 4th of November 2010 which,
according to cell phone records, General Dramat
was called at 20h56 by Lieutenant Colonel Maluleka
seeing

permission

Officers

to

enter

Zimbabwean

to

allow

into

the

Police

were

Zimbabwean
c o u n t r y.

at

Police

Since

Beitbridge

the

between

20h00 and 21h00 it is logical that they arrived in
Gauteng

late

opportunity
20

to

at

night

have

the

leaving

them

meeting

with

with

the

General

Dramat, in the morning of the 5th of November 2010
as stated in the success report”.
N o w, i n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t , a b s o l u t e l y n o t h i n g i s
said about that.

The third area the first report of the 22nd

of January deals with the committed Government resources
into

the

operation,

Khuba

makes

Page 147 of 201

the

following

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
finding…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry are you at 62, am I correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s a t – n o a t 6 1 , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

6-1?
Ja it’s – no 62, sorry yes, the one on top,

I ’ m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

I t ’s d i f f i c u l t t o f o l l o w t h e s e t h i n g s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

MR NHLEKO:

The committed Government resources into

the operation.

Now Khuba makes the following finding, I

quote,
“Despite

the

fact

that

General

Dramat,

as

an

a c c o u n t i n g o f f i c e r, d i d n o t s i g n a n y c l a i m o f C a p t a i n
Maluleka delegating responsibility to Major General
Sibiya to assist the Zimbabwean Police in tracing
wanted

suspects,

invariably

commit

Government

resources into an unlawful operation that amount to
a criminal offence”.
20

Now in the second report nothing is said of this very
same

paragraph

so

there’s

a

complete

deletion

there.

N o w, c o n g r a t u l a t i n g , i n t h e f i r s t r e p o r t , t h e r e ’ s a h e a d i n g
that says, congratulating the officers for the arrest of John
Nyoni.

Khuba makes the following finding in this regard, I

quote,
Page 148 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
“An

evaluation

appreciation

of

the

from

above

General

findings,
Dramat

words

show

of

both

interests in the arrest of the Zimbabwean Nationals
and

his

knowledge

of

the

operation.

If

the

operation was lawful, he would not have warned
them not to tell anyone about it”.
Now the same heading in the second report, nothing
is said com pletely about this particular matter so there’s a
complete
10

received

deletion

there.

communication

On

the

regarding

heading

success

titled,

reports

he
and

photos of the operation through his personal assistant
Phumla

the

investigator

makes

the

following

point,

Mr

from

the

Khuba,
“According
seized

to

the

laptop,

circulating

information

Captain

more

than

received

Maluleka
20

photos

sent
of

emails

both

the

suspects arrested and the members involved in the
operation.

The

emails were

s e n t t o t h e PA o f

General Dramat, Phumla, the Zimbabwean Police
20

and members of Crime Intelligence”.
Corresponding to the second report nothing is said about
this particular matter so there’s a complete deletion.

So,

of course, there’s a whole range of other deletions but I
think following the understanding between the honourable
Chair and Senior Counsel who carries it, you don’t want me
Page 149 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
to bore you with this but I’ve made four examples of the
deletion.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

A n d t h a t ’ s w h y, t h e n , C h a i r, m y i s s u e w a s i f

you come across something like this, what do you do. Now
if I were to say to you make a decision, and I think this is a
p o i n t I w a s – I s a i d e a r l i e r o n t o s a y, l o o k , t h e r e a r e n o
cosmetic, dramatical kind of changes that we are dealing
with here, we are dealing with material. So, surely the
10

complete

deletion

of

a

particular

paragraph

and/or

statement for an example in a report that you would have
to decide, let’s say as a Prosecuting Authority for an
example it would certainly influence the kind of position
that you would have to take and that’s why I was saying
earlier on, making this example that, if I’m writing a report
to

the

United

Nations

about

this

Commission,

it’s

of

material value whether the Chair was sitting presiding over
the proceedings of this Commission and that’s different
from, yes, the Chair was there but he was wearing red
20

glasses, I don’t know why I’m – I like red and ja, but I’m
just saying there’s a m aterial difference in that.

So – and

t h i s i s w h a t w e s h o u l d , e s s e n t i a l l y, b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a s
to why you have this kind of a situation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e , w h a t i s t h e m e s s a g e t h a t t h e s e

so-called deletions gave you or what is the message that
Page 150 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
these

deletions

gave

you,

what

did

you

make

of

this

because that must be what informed your next action?

I

told you, I think, earlier or yesterday or today that my
inclination

would

have

been

to

call

them,

to

call

the

E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r a n d s a y, p l e a s e e x p l a i n t o m e w h a t t h i s
is all about but maybe before I do that I would look at the
statements and if the statements were intact then whatever
I did with this may have been based on saying, do I think
that it was a wrong analysis of the statements, wrong
10

analysis of

the

issues that

may

have

led

to

a

wrong

recom mendation or do I – did I think it’s som ething else, so
what did you make of it?

Do you think it may just be some

innoxious deletion or did you think there is something
behind it and if so, did you think that after looking at the
statements

or

without

looking

at

the

statements

themselves?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, the way I viewed this, that these are

serous acts of misconduct, total deletions right.
are
20

bound

to

develop

some

theoretical

N o w, y o u

framework

for

example in your mind that firstly and foremost there’s
something untoward about something like this when you
come across an analysis of this nature but also you’re
bound t o also conclude that it’s possible that there was a
cover-up of sorts.

N o w, a s t o w h y t h e r e w o u l d b e t h a t

cover-up it’s a different process that would then have to
Page 151 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
e s t a b l i s h t h a t , y o u k n o w.

Yo u o n l y r e m a i n a t t h e l e v e l o f

being suspicious, the day there’s something wrong.

Now –

a n d t h a t ’ s w h y, C h a i r, f o r m e , I t h i n k I a m o n r e c o r d a t
different sort of platform s for an example because I said,
look there has got to be accountability about something
like this so that also, the people implicated themselves are
a b l e t o e i t h e r c l e a r t h e i r n a m e s a n d / o r, w h a t e v e r d i f f e r e n t l y
but you need an objective process to handle something like
that.
10

It cannot even be a person like myself, regardless of

whatever

experience

that

I

think

I

might

have

around

matters of this nature and so on but objectively take it out
somewhere, get professional and objective people to deal
with the matters of this particular nature and so on.
So that we – we’ll have to get to the bottom of what
a c t u a l l y h a p p e n e d a n d w h y.

N o w, I w i l l p o s s i b l y, d i s c l o s e

briefly one of my discussions, when the issue of, for an
example, General Dramat who then said in his first letter to
me and subsequently in further engagement and said, he
wanted us to sit down and discuss about his options in
20

t e r m s o f , y o u k n o w, l e a v i n g t h e s e r v i c e a n d s o o n a n d a t
one particular point we met in my office, I think it must
h a v e b e e n d o w n i n C a p e To w n a n d w e s p o k e a b o u t t h i s
very same, sort of matter and so on and I said to him, look,
I don’t have an interest in you necessarily leaving the
s e r v i c e I h a v e a n i n t e r e s t i n k n o w i n g , y o u k n o w, o f c o u r s e
Page 152 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
through the correct processes in terms of what happened
a n d o f c o u r s e y o u – a s y o u w o u l d a p p r e c i a t e , C h a i r,

you

can’t tell an employee whether to remain and stay behind
or leave, I mean, it’s not your call it’s an individual choice
that a person makes.

So – because I was trying to say to

him, and perhaps to anybody else who has to hear this
thing, that you can’t have an institution or institutions of
Governance that function and anything that happens and
seems
10

to

be

untoward

and

so

on

and

there’s

no

accountability and when you want accountability around
some

of

those

issues

–

and

by

the

w a y,

issues

of

accountability it cuts both ways. If I do something wrong, I
expect to be correct, for an example and to be subjected to
p r o c e s s e s o f o u r l a w, p r o c e s s e s o f o u r i n s t r u m e n t s o f –
within the institutions and so on.
N o w, t h a t ’ s m y n a t u r a l e x p e c t a t i o n a r o u n d t h e s e
particular matters but I think there has been this peddling
of a view that says, you don’t like certain people and you
w a n t t o g e t r i d o f t h e , y o u k n o w, a t a l l c o s t s a n d s o o n
20

which is absolutely not true.

For me it was just a simple

exercise, these are the allegations that are out there, that
you tampered with the report, face a legal process that has
to got to deal with matters of that nature go and clear
yourself, your name there, that’s it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I’m happy we have come to this
Page 153 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
p o i n t b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t ’ s q u i t e a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t . Yo u s a y
you thought to yourself that this could be an attempt to
c o v e r - u p o k a y, i s t h a t r i g h t , t h a t t h e r e i s a p o s s i b i l i t y.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , s u s p i c i o n s i n t h a t r e g a r d .

CHAIRPERSON:

S u s p i c i o n s j a , n o w, I g o b a c k t o t h i s

question and maybe you did answer it but, whether at the
time of doing – of having that suspicion whether you were
aware

that

the

statements

in

the

docket

had

all

the

information, for example, that may have been in the first
10

report but was no longer in the second report. Were you
aware of that or were you not aware of that at that time?
MR NHLEKO:

No at that time, of course I wasn’t aware.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e n ’ t a w a r e ?

MR NHLEKO:

But I think, also, on this issue, and I’m

happy that Mr Sandile July of Werksm ans will also be
appearing.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , y e s .

Because he would shed more light.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

MR NHLEKO:

O n t h e , y o u k n o w, t h e n i t t y g r i t t y ’ s o f t h e

work that they did and of course what is it that they found,
for an example.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

In the docket that they looked into and the

statements that were there, it does that, whether or not
Page 154 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
those statement tally with the final product as found in the
two reports, for an example.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

what

would

you

say

to

the

proposition that it would be a very weak attempt on the
part of anybody at IPID to try and cover-up what General
Dramat

and

General

Sibiya

may

have

done

wrong

by

changing what was in their first report without changing the
actual statements on the basis of which decisions would be
made, what would you say to that?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Whether or not, I would think that’s a weak

attempt?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Sorry?
Whether or not I would of that as a weak

attempt?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s t o s a y, t h e s e p e o p l e m u s t b e

knowing what they are doing and they must have known,
nobody was going to make a decision without reading the
statements and it doesn’t help to change something in the
report, if in the statement, it remains there because the
20

people who make decision will look at the statements and
will see all the information that you are trying to remove, if
that’s your attem pt.
MR NHLEKO:

No, I think I would share in a more or less

a s i m i l a r v i e w, C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t , y o u k n o w,
something

that

–

for

argument

Page 155 of 201

sake

you

if there’s
wanted

to

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
manipulate you needed to manipulate the entire line all the
way back, for an exam ple and that’s why I’m also going
back to the point that says I’m happy that Mr July would
appear here because then we will also be looking into the
process issues and some of the process issues, they also
affect the National Prosecuting Authority and so forth.
There was the whole question, for instance, of the docket
itself

being

withdrawn

from

the

National

Prosecuting

Authority for whatever the reasons were and so on and
10

there’s quite a bit of – few individuals involved there not on
the side of IPID but of course the National Prosecuting
Authority and so it goes.

Now that is dealt with in detail in

the report that I had to commission, in the work that I had
to

commission

as

the

Werksmans

investigation

but

I

a p p r e c i a t e a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h e v i e w p o i n t b y t h e C h a i r, i t ’ s
– you are right that, naturally you do come to this question
but how is it possible that this thing can be done only at
this level and not the entire value chain of sorts and so on
but I think as and when we engage further with it, we’ll get
20

m o r e c l a r i t y, C h a i r.
CHAI RPERSO N: No, no that’s fine and of course, part of
what one would look at is these are not just people who
have no investigative experience, these are people who
are – have got quite some experience of investigating and
they would know exactly what to do if they wanted to do
Page 156 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
this

but

that

doesn’t

mean

the

alterations

mustn’t

be

l o o k e d a t , I ’ m j u s t p u t t i n g t h i s , M r H u l l e y.
ADV

HULLEY

understand

SC:

you

Thank

c o r r e c t l y,

you

what

Mr

C h a i r.

you’re

So,

saying

is

if

I

that,

insofar as the additional investigations were conducted –
that were conducted you would prefer Mr July to speak to
that?
MR NHLEKO:
this.
10

N o , M r H u l l e y, I t h i n k l e t ’ s t r y a n d c l a r i f y

Yo u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a d d i t i o n a l i n v e s t i g a t i o n , n o w I

need to be careful about that because there has been
reference to additional investigations but relating to the
question of the…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja I think – Werksmans investigation.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Werksm ans investigation.

MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

ADV

SC:

HULLEY

So

as

far

as

the

investigations

conducted by Werksmans is concerned, you’d prefer Mr
July to speak to that?
MR
20

NHLEKO:

Not

n e c e s s a r i l y,

look,

I

prepared

a

s t a t e m e n t a n d I c a m e h e r e , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, i n t h e f i r s t
day and you looked at me and – in a very intimidating kind
of manner and said, you are not going to present this thing
word for word right throughout, okay but it’s there, of
c o u r s e I ’ m e x a g g e r a t i n g w h a t I ’ v e j u s t s a i d , C h a i r, I ’ m
sorry I’m saying it in jest. Now …[intervenes].
Page 157 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

No, I think what you’re saying about Mr

J u l y, y o u a r e s i m p l y s a y i n g , y o u a r e h a p p y t h a t – y o u a r e
giving

your

own

understanding

of

issues,

your

own

perspective.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And that the person that you asked to

investigate will also come and give his own understanding
and his perspective.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s .
10

CHAI RPERSO N: That’s what you are saying.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , a n d p a r t i c u l a r l y b e c a u s e h e a l s o h a d –

h e c o n d u c t e d t h e i n t e r v i e w s , y o u k n o w, f a c e - t o - f a c e k i n d o f
interviews and interactions with people and he will be able
to

elucidate

more

points

about

what

that

experience

entailed and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:
questions,

we

No,
will

and

bear

of
in

course
mind

as

that

we

ask

you

you

are

not

responsible for his decisions except insofar as you adopted
but
20

you

are

responsible

for

your

own

decisions

and

obviously if you adopt you might be asked but I think it’s
clear you are saying you are giving your perspective, he
will come and give me his perspective as well, ja, Mr
H u l l e y.
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

Thank

Now…[intervenes].
Page 158 of 201

you

Mr

C h a i r.

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : C o u l d I – I ’ m s o r r y, M r C h a i r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s h i n g o f h a n d s ?
M R N H L E K O : Wa s h i n g o f h a n d s y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay we are going to have a – I think I’ve
got an idea that after close to two hours there should be a
break to wash hands.

S o , w e a r e a t q u a r t e r t o f o u r, m a y b e

before – or m aybe let’s have the washing of hands then
when we come back, we can talk about the way forward.
Ja we’ll adjourn for ten minutes is that fine?
10

We’ll adjourn

for ten minutes.
We adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . t h e w a y f o r w a rd .

h e h a s j u st a r ri v e d .

I see Counsel for or

L e t u s t a l k a b o u t t h e w a y f o r w a rd .

o b vi o u sl y h a v e n o t f i n i sh e d .

We

We l l l e t m e st a rt w i t h t h e

w i t n e s s. M r N h l e k o w h a t i s y o u r si t u a t i o n ? I – I i m a g i n e b u t
y o u m u st j u st t e l l m e w h a t y o u r si t u a t i o n i s.

I imagine that

m a y b e w e s h o u l d l o o k – y o u a r e st i l l g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k
20

w h e n M r M c B ri d e i s t o b e cr o s s -e x a m i n e d . O n e o p t i o n w o u l d
b e t h a t w e p l a n t h a t w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k y o u f i n i sh o ff yo u r
p a rt a n d t h e n C o u n se l cr o s s -e x a m i n e s h i m .

Another option

is that we proceed for another hour or so but I doubt that we
w i l l f i n i s h w i t h i n a n h o u r – t h a t h o u r.

I am not sure if there

i s a n o t h e r o p t i o n b u t w h a t i s y o u r si t u a t i o n ?
Page 159 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO: Chair I initially had thought that we are going
t o f i n i s h y e st e r d a y b u t w e t h e n h a v e n o w g r a vi t a t e d t o w h e re
we are.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : B u t t h i s i s a m a t t e r o f p ri o ri t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

A n d s o a s a re s u l t o f w h i ch I t h i n k t h e re

w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g w r o n g i f w e d o n o t f i n i sh t o m o r r o w. I a m
j u st m a ki n g a n e x a m p l e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h ye s, y e s, j a . N o , n o .
M R N H L E K O : T h e r e w i l l b e s o m e t h i n g f u n d a m e n t a l l y w ro n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o w e – i f w e g o i n t o t o m o r r o w, w e w i l l
f i n i s h t o m o r r o w.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s s o I a m s u g g e st i n g t h a t i n ca s e y o u w o r k
around.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I st i l l a m p r e p a r e d t o . .
MR NHLEKO:

I a m st u c k a r o u n d – I a m st u c k a r o u n d t h i s

p l a c e t h a t w e d o n o t l i ke .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y.
20

MR NHLEKO: So we may…
CHAIRPERSON: So you…
M R N H L E K O : I a m l o o ki n g a t t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e l o o ki n g a t y o u r S e n i o r C o u n s e l .
MR NHLEKO: At the SC here because…
CHAIRPERSON:

I w i l l b e a s ki n g h i m j u st n o w w h a t h i s
Page 160 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
p o si t i o n i s
M R N H L E K O : Ye s b u t t h a t i s m y p o si t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t f r o m yo u r si d e e v e n t o m o rr o w y o u w i l l

[ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 2 : 3 6 ]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s e v e n t o m o r r o w y e s w e ca n .
CHAIRPERSON:

So we could go on for some time this

a f t e r n o o n a n d w h e n w e – i f w e st i l l h a v e n o t f i n i sh e d t h e n
c o n t i n u e t o m o r ro w u n t i l w e f i n i s h i f w e c a n w i t h y o u . I k n o w
there are other matters but I think that we should be able to
10

f i n i s h w i t h yo u e v e n w i t h t h o s e m a t t e r s I t h i n k.

I think they

m i g h t h a v e t o b e m o v e d j u st l i ke y o u h a v e b e e n m o v e d i n
t e r m s o f – o k a y a l ri g h t . M r M o k h a ri w h a t i s y o u r si t u a t i o n ?
ADV MOKHARI SC:

Chair I – I will be happy if we can

p r o c e e d f o r a n h o u r o r t w o t o d a y a n d i f t o m o rr o w, w e c a n
finish

before

twelve

then

I

will

be

able

to

push

the

commitments that I have for tomorrow to afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O ka y.

M r H u l l e y, I kn o w y o u a re

st u c k w i t h – w i t h m e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So if I am available you are available.

A D V H U L L E Y S C : We c o n j o i n e d u n f o rt u n a t e l y o r f o rt u n a t e l y
as the case may be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k l e t u s g o u p t o f i ve a n d t h e n w e w i l l
s e e w h e t h e r a t f i v e w e g o u p t o s i x o r w e st o p a t f i v e a n d
a d j o u r n u n t i l t o m o rr o w a n d t h e n i f w e a d j o u r n u n t i l t o m o r r o w,
Page 161 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w e c o u l d st a rt e a r l i e r t h a n t e n i f t h a t s u i t s e v e r y b o d y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o ka y a l ri g h t .

Thank you.

We l l l e t m e

a s k t h i s q u e st i o n a s w e m o v e f o r w a rd M r N h l e k o .

Yo u k n o w

t h e r e h a s b e e n t h i s q u e st i o n o f w h e t h e r t h e s o c a l l e d f i r st
re p o rt w a s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt o r t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt o r n o t j a .
N o w t h a t q u e st i o n m a y b e q u i t e i m p o rt a n t f o r p u rp o s e s o f t h e
c o n ce r n s t h a t y o u h a ve r a i s e d .

B e c a u se i f i t w a s n o t a f i n a l

re p o rt m a y b e i t w o u l d f o l l o w f ro m t h a t t h a t t h e I P I D – t h a t
10

t h e f i n a l r e p o rt co u l d d i ff e r f r o m a r e p o rt t h a t i s n o t f i n a l a n d
t h e r e f o r e i f t h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n t h e t w o t h a t
s h o u l d n o t r a i s e a n y a l a r m s.

O ka y.

Now I think from your

a ff i d a vi t I t h i n k y o u h a v e t a k e n t h e vi e w t h a t i t w a s a f i n a l
re p o rt – t h e f i r st r e p o rt , i s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s S i r t h a t i s v e r y c o r r e ct C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y e s.

Now one of the things that Mr

K h u b a s a i d w h e n h e g a ve e vi d e n c e i n t h e c o m m i s s i o n w a s
t h a t t h e f i r st re p o rt w a s n o t a f i n a l re p o rt .

And he said that

i s – t h a t w a s s o b e ca u s e – h e s a i d i t w a s n o t a f i n a l r e p o rt
20

b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s st i l l so m e i n v e s t i g a t i o n t o b e d o n e w h e n
it was submitted.

A n d a s I re c a l l h e sa i d a l t h o u g h t h e c e l l

p h o n e r e c o rd s w e r e t h e r e , t h e y h a d n o t y e t b e e n a n a l y se d
b y I a s s u m e a n e x p e rt . A n d h e s a i d t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n
t h e f i r st r e p o rt a n d t h e f i n a l r e p o rt I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r a l l
of them or some of them were based on the analysis of the
Page 162 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
c e l l p h o n e re c o r d s t h a t h a d t a k e n p l a c e .

Now I am aware

t h a t t h e r e i s a m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h M r M o si n g – A d v o ca t e
M o s i n g f ro m t h e N PA w r o t e t o M r C h a u ke o f t h e N PA a n d t o
M s Ji b a o r t h e N PA i n w h i c h h e a l s o co n f i r m e d t h a t t h e
a n a l y si s o f t h e ce l l p h o n e r e c o rd s w a s o u t st a n d i n g . A r e y o u
aware of the same thing as well?
MR NHLEKO: No I am aware.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:
10

We r k sm a n s

F ro m t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n r e p o rt c o n d u ct e d b y

that

there

is

that

a s p e ct .

In

f a ct ,

I

also

a c c o m m o d a t e d i t o n t o m y st a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

Which is more of an issue dealing with the

process and the handling.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : O f t h i s p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r b e t w e e n I P I D a n d t h e
N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:
20

A n d c o u l d I j u st a l l u d e t o t w o t h i n g s – s o r r y

b e ca u s e t h e C h a i r sp o k e t o t h e q u e st i o n o f w h a t M r K h u b a
s a i d t h a t t h i s i s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t I j u st w a n t e d t o
check before I proceed that you are aware of this – we are
on the same page.

Yo u a re a w a re t h a t Mr M o s i n g a l s o sa i d

i n s o m e m e m o ra n d u m t h a t t h e a n a l y si s o f c e l l p h o n e re c o r d s
Page 163 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w a s o u t st a n d i n g a t t h e t i m e t h e f i r st re p o rt w a s su b m i t t e d t o
t h e m . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t ?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s I a m a w a r e I s a w i t i n t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n

re p o rt .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e a w a r e o k a y a l ri g h t .

O k a y.

Now

m y q u e st i o n o n t h i s d e b a t e o f w h e t h e r t h e f i r st r e p o rt w a s
f i n a l o r n o t i s t h e re f o r e h o w c o u l d i t b e – h o w c o u l d i t h a v e
b e e n r e g a r d e d a s f i n a l i f t h e w o r k – t h e i n v e st i g a t i v e w o r k
had not been completed yet?
10

MR NHLEKO:

How I would respond to that maybe in two or

t h r e e d i ff e r e n t s o rt o f w a y s.

T h e f i r st o n e C h a i r i s t h a t I

t h i n k i n v e st i g a t o r s w h o a l so d i d t h i s w o r k w i l l s h e d m o r e
l i g h t o n t h a t q u e st i o n w h e n t h e y c o m i n g t o t e st i f y.
think

j u st

the

few

e xt r a ct s

that

I

made

That I

before

this

c o m m i s si o n . T h e o n e t h i n g t h a t y o u ca n cl e a rl y s e e i s t h a t
t h e r e i s n o a d d i t i o n a l i n f o rm a t i o n i n t h e s e c o n d re p o rt .
R a t h e r s o m e t h i n g h a s b e e n t a ke n a w a y f r o m t h e f i r st r e p o rt .
S o I t h i n k f o r m e t h a t i s v e r y g l a ri n g .

Yo u k n o w yo u h a ve

d e l e t e d p a r a g ra p h s, d e l e t e d st a t e m e n t s a n d s o o n i n t h e
20

c o n st r u ct i o n o f t h e s e c o n d o n e a n d s o o n .
aware

that

so m e w h e r e

in

the

–

in

So it is a – I am
the

i n ve st i g a t i o n

c o n d u ct e d b y We r k s m a n s t h a t i s s u e a l s o w a s a l e t t e r a r o u n d
t h e q u e st i o n o f y o u k n o w i n f a ct t h e r e a r e t w o t h i n g s.

Th e

q u e st i o n o f t h e c e l l p h o n e r e co r d s a n d w a r n i n g st a t e m e n t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w a rn i n g st a t e m e n t s j a .
Page 164 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M R N H L E K O : Yo u k n o w t h o s e a r e t h e t h i n g s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

leave

out

the

warning

statements

b e ca u s e I t a k e i t t h e y – t h e p e o p l e c o n ce r n e d c o u l d n o t b e
forced to make them.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s st a n d s o n a

d i ff e r e n t f o o t i n g .
MR NHLEKO: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o m y q u e st i o n i s h o w c o u l d a n y b o d y

re g a r d t h e f i r st r e p o rt a s f i n a l w h e n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n h a d n o t
b e e n c o m p l e t e d b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s st i l l a n a n a l y si s o f t h e
c e l l p h o n e re c o r d s t h a t w a s t o b e d o n e ?
MR NHLEKO:

O h o k a y.

N o w I d o n o t w a n t t o cl a i m a n y

p a rt i c u l a r k n o w l e d g e a r o u n d s p e ci f i c a l l y t h a t a r e a .
say

you

know

Chair

that

when

that

was

Save to

done

my

u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t y o u h a d t w o re p o rt s b e f o r e t h e r e p o rt
o f t h e J a n u a r y 2 2 . Yo u h a ve a d ra f t p r o d u c e d i n O ct o b e r a n d
a d r a f t p r o d u ce d i n N o ve m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR NHLEKO:

N o w a – I t h i n k t h e f o r m e r a ct i n g E x e c u t i ve

D i r e ct o r M s K o e ki e M b e k i w o u l d a l s o s h e d s o m e l i g h t a r o u n d
t h e q u e st i o n o f t h a t r e p o rt o f t h e 2 2 n d b e c a u s e sh e b y t h e n
w a s t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r.

T h a t i s a b o u t a l m o s t t h re e

m o n t h s b e f o r e M r M c B r i d e c a m e i n t h e y e m e r g e d a n d so o n .
S h e w o u l d a l so s h e d l i g h t a r o u n d t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e f i n a l i t y
Page 165 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
o f t h a t re p o rt a n d w h a t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s w e re b e t w e e n I P I D
a n d t h e N PA f o r a n e x a m p l e .

M y u n d e r st a n d i n g f r o m w h a t I

hear is that she also was quite involved with that work of the
i n v e st i g a t i o n d o n e b y M r K h u b a .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w o u l d y o u a g r e e t h a t t h e r e p o rt o n t h e

b a si s o f w h i c h t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e st a t e m e n t s y o u a s M i n i st e r
w o u l d b e e x p e ct e d t o m a k e a d e ci s i o n a n d t h e N PA w o u l d b e
e x p e ct e d t o m a k e i t s o w n d e ci si o n s a b o u t cri m i n a l m a t t e r s
w o u l d b e t h e f i n a l re p o rt a n d n o t a r e p o rt t h a t w a s n o t f i n a l .
10

M R N H L E K O : Ye s i t w o u l d b e t h e f i n a l r e p o rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d a g re e ?
MR NHLEKO: I agree with that.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e f o r e t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t t h e f i r st

re p o rt m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a f i n a l re p o rt y o u w o u l d n o t b e
e x p e ct e d t o m a k e y o u r d e ci si o n b a s e d o n i t .

Now when I

t a l k a b o u t y o u r d e ci si o n , I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t d i s ci p l i n a r y
m a t t e r s w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y m u st b e c h a r g e d o r su s p e n d e d
a n d s o o n . I a m n o t s u g g e st i n g t h a t i f y o u p i c k u p t h a t t h e r e
w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t n e e d e d t o b e i n v e st i g a t e d y o u c o u l d n o t
20

s a y l e t i t b e i n v e st i g a t e d b u t I a m j u st sa yi n g yo u w o u l d
a c c e p t t h a t y o u w o u l d b e e x p e ct e d t o m a k e y o u r d e ci si o n s
o n t h e b a si s o f a f i n a l r e p o rt w h i c h e v e r i t i s ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m u st b e a f i n a l r e p o rt .
M R N H L E K O : N o t h a t i s c o rr e ct .
Page 166 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : I t h i n k t h a t i s a c o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : A rt i c u l a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y a l ri g h t .
MR NHLEKO:

M y co n t e n t i o n o n l y w i t h re g a r d s t o t h e f i r st

re p o rt w h i ch I r e f e r t o a s a f i n a l r e p o rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:
10

I s t h a t i f t h e r e p o rt w a s n o t f i n a l w h a t w a s i t

d o i n g a t t h e N PA ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l …
MR NHLEKO:

That is not for the Chair to answer it is a

rh e t o ri c a l q u e st i o n I a m j u st s a yi n g .
would

a

draft

r e p o rt

be

in

the

So what was it?
hands

of

the

Why

National

P r o s e cu t i n g A u t h o ri t y f o r t h e m t o d e ci d e t o p ro s e c u t e o r n o t
to prosecute?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
MR NHLEKO: If it is a draft. If it was a draft.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J u st g i ve m e t h e o t h e r – t h e r e i s t h e o t h e r

l e v e r a r c h f i l e t h a t I ca n n o t re m e m b e r w h a t i t i s c a l l e d t h a t
Mr Hulley you…
ADV HULLEY SC: In relation to which Mr Chair?
CHAIRPERSON:
that one?

We l l i t h a s g o t m y n o t e s.

H a v e y o u se e n

I j u st w a n t t o u s t o s p e a k w i t h s p e ci f i c s.

At the

b e g i n n i n g i t h a s g o t s o m e n o t e s t h a t I m a d e – h a n d w ri t t e n
Page 167 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
notes at the beginning.

The files that were brought up

y e st e r d a y.

the

Ja

ri g h t

h a n d w ri t t e n n o t e s .

at

beginning

it

has

got

my

W h i l e h e i s l o o ki n g f o r t h e f i l e t h a t h a s

got my notes let me say this – let me say two things to you
M r N h l e k o i n r e g a rd t o y o u r r h e t o ri c a l q u e st i o n .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r K h u b a g a v e e vi d e n ce h e re a n d s a i d h e

w a s p l a c e d u n d e r t r e m e n d o u s p r e s s u r e t o su b m i t h i s r e p o rt
t o t h e N PA .
10

I think one of the people that he said placed

c o n si d e r a b l e p r e s s u r e o n h i m w a s G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a i f I a m
n o t m i st a k e n .

I

think he

said something like you are

d e l a yi n g – yo u a r e d e l a yi n g m y m o v e t o t h e H a w k s o r
something like that.

Yo u k n o w w h e n a r e yo u f i n i s h i n g t h e

i n v e st i g a t i o n . I a m p a r a p h r a si n g .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u kn o w.

But I think he also said Mr

Mosing also put a lot of pressure on him and he even said
n o r m a l l y a r e p o rt l i k e t h a t m u st b e si g n e d b y t h e E x e c u t i ve
D i r e ct o r o f I P I D b u t t h i s w a s su b m i t t e d w i t h h i s si g n a t u r e
20

o n l y.

H e m i g h t h a v e sa i d t h e a ct i n g E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r w a s

not available or something I am not sure but definitely he
said there was a lot of pressure put on him to complete his
i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d s u b m i t h i s re p o rt .

Th a t i s o n e .

But two I

d e f i n i t e l y h a ve m a d e a n o t e I s a w a m e m o r a n d u m b y M r
M o s i n g a d d r e s s e d t o M r Ji b a – M s Ji b a I a m s o rr y – M r Ji b a
Page 168 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
a n d M r C h a u k e w i t h i n t h e N PA i n w h i c h h e d e f i n i t e l y t h e r e
a r e st i l l o u t st a n d i n g – t h e r e i s st i l l s o m e t h i n g o u t st a n d i n g
a n d t h a t i s t h e a n a l y si s o f t h e ce l l p h o n e r e c o r d s b u t
definitely he said there was a lot of pressure put on him to
c o m p l e t e h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d s u b m i t h i s r e p o rt .

That is

one.
B u t t w o , I d e f i n i t e l y h a ve m a d e a n o t e . I s a w a m e m o b y
M r M o s e n g a d d r e s s e d t o M r Ji b a . . . M s Ji b a . I a m s o r r y. M s
Ji b a a n d M r C h a u k e w i t h i n t h e L PA i n w h i c h h e d e f i n i t e l y
10

s a i d t h e r e a re s t i l l o u t st a n d i n g . . . t h e r e i s st i l l s o m e t h i n g
o u t st a n d i n g a n d t h a t i s t h e a n a l y s e s o f t h e ce l l p h o n e
re c o r d s.
H e m a y h a v e a ct u a l l y s a i d t h i s i s n o t f i n a l .
sure.

I am not

I m a y b e m i st a k e n a b o u t t h at p a rt b u t I a m n o t

m i st a k e n a b o u t t h e p a rt w h e r e h e s a i d t h e a n a l y s e s o f t h e
c e l l p h o n e re c o r d s i s o u t st a n d i n g .
S o n o w, i f I a m c o r r e ct f a ct u a l l y t h a t t h a t i s w h a t M r
M o s e n g s a i d , I w a n t t o s u g g e st t o y o u t h a t t h a t m u st m e a n
t h a t t h e f i n a l . . . o r ra t h e r, t h e f i r st r e p o rt w a s n o t a p r o d u ct o f
20

a c o m p l e t e i n v e st i g a t i o n o r a c o m p l e t e d i n v e st i g a t i o n .
A n d i f t h a t w a s s o , m y l o g i c su g g e st t h a t i t c o u l d n o t b e
a f i n a l r e p o rt .

Have you got something to say to this

t h i n ki n g ?
MR NHLEKO:
C h a i r.

No, I think that is arguable point Honourable

Yo u k n o w, f o r st a rt e r s, I w o u l d n o t b e p r i v y t o
Page 169 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
d i s c u s si o n s b e t w e e n c e rt a i n i n d i vi d u a l s.

I know that the...

t h e cl a i m o r a l l e g a t i o n h a s b e e n m a d e w h i c h i s. . . w h i c h I
t h i n k i t m a k e s m e ve r y b i g , y o u k n o w, t h a t I m u st a l s o h a v e
c a p t u r e d t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y a n d so o n .
N o w i t i s q u i t e si g n i f i c a n t b u t I w i l l d e a l w i t h t h a t p o i n t a
d a y. . . a t a n o t h e r p o i n t . . . a t a l a t e r p o i n t yo u r H o n o u r a b l e
C h a i r.
B u t I a m s a yi n g , I w o u l d n o t b e p r i vy, f o r i n st a n c e , t o
d i s c u s si o n s e i t h e r p e rt a i n i n g t o M r M o s e n g , M o e l e t si a n d
10

C h a u ke a n d w h o m e v e r, e x c e p t w h a t I s e e i n t h e re p o rt s t h a t
i n d e e d t h e r e w e re s u c h t h i n g s.
I w o u l d a l s o n o t b e p ri v y t o t h e p r e s s u r e p o i n t s t h a t M r
K h u b a m u st h a v e b e e n s u b j e ct e d t o b y. . . w h e t h e r i t i s
. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] o r a n y o t h e r i n d i vi d u a l a n d s o o n .

I would not

know about those.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : N o w. . a n d I st i l l d o t h i n k t h a t i f M s M b e ki w a s
t o b e c a l l e d , I t h i n k s h e w o u l d s h e d m o re l i g h t a b o u t t h i s
issue of...
20

S o i f t h e J a n u a r y 2 2 r e p o rt w a s n o t f i n a l , s o h o w co m e i t
f o l l o w e d a l e g i sl a t i v e , a s o rt o f r o u t e , t o t h e N PA f o r t h e N PA
t o m a k e a d e ci si o n ?
S o i f t h e r e p o rt w a s n o t f i n a l , w h a t w a s. . . p e rh a p s a l s o
t h e l o g i c a l a n d r e l e v a n t q u e st i o n re l a t e d t o t h a t w o u l d b e ,
what was the rush? If I may put it that way?
Page 170 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
MR

NHLEKO:

So

what

would

h a ve

been

the

rush

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
MR NHLEKO:

I f t h a t re p o rt w a s n o t c o m p l e t e ?

And then

you take it to the National Prosecuting Authority and so on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
MR NHLEKO:

A n d p e r h a p s, t h a t i s w h e n t h e st a t e m e n t s

a l l e g e d l y m a d e b y M r K h u b a , p e r h a p s w i l l a l s o a s si st i n
10

d e t e r m i n i n g t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e f i n a l i t y o f t h i s p a rt i c u l a r
re p o rt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

B u t a s t h i n g s st a n d , m y p o si t i o n i s si m p l e .

T h a t w a s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt a n d t h a t i s w h y i t w a s w i t h t h e N PA
f o r p r o s e cu t i o n .

N o w a n d t h a t i s w h y, e v e n a m o n g st o t h e r

t h i n g s, t h e N PA i t s e l f , b e si d e s t h e m e m o f r o m M o s e n g t o
C h a u ke

or Ms Jiba and so, the matter was also even

e s c a l a t e d t o t h e l e ve l o f t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c
P r o s e cu t i o n t h e n .
20

So how could it get that far when we

h a ve . . . i f t h i s i s a d r a f t re p o rt ?

And so.

So, I think those

a r e r e l e va n t q u e st i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

I t h i n k y o u a r e ri g h t .

Those

q u e st i o n s a r e r e l e v a n t . I a m g o i n g t o re a d t o y o u s o m e t h i n g
i n m y o w n n o t e s i n re g a r d t o w h a t M s M o s e n g s a i d i n t h e
m e m o t h a t I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t .

I c a n n o t l o ca t e t h e m e m o

Page 171 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
i t s e l f b u t o n ce I h a ve r e a d , m a y b e co u n s e l w i l l b e a b l e t o
locate it.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e s p o n se ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s a yi n g , o n c e I h a v e r e a d t h e r e l e v a n t

p a rt , t h e q u o t a t i o n s i n m y h a n d w ri t t e n n o t e s, m a y b e c o u n s e l
w i l l b e a b l e t o t e l l u s w h e r e i t i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

...in the bundle but we might not need to

g o t h e re f o r p r e s e n t p u rp o s e s.
10

B u t I w a n t t o s a y, I a m n o t

s u r e w h a t t h e p o s i t i o n i s w i t h M s M b e ki .
But you are maybe aware that when the IPID witnesses
g a ve

e vi d e n c e

here...

or

r a t h e r,

when

Mr

Khuba

gave

e vi d e n c e h e r e o r e v e n f r o m h i s st a t e m e n t s, h e s a i d t h a t M s
M b e ki t o l d h i m n o t t o i n vo l ve M r S e s o k o i n t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n
which

he

found

st ra n g e

because

Mr

Sesoko

was

his

s u p e r vi s o r.
The

only

i n v e st i g a t i o n s.

person

that

he

was

r e p o rt i n g

to

for

all

H e d i d n o t u n d e r st a n d w h y, i n r e g a r d t o t h i s

p a rt i c u l a r o n e , h e sh o u l d n o t i n v o l v e Mr S e s o k o . T h a t i s o n e
20

of the things that Mr Khuba said.
Tw o , b o t h M r K h u b a . . . I t h i n k M r K h u b a a n d M r M c B ri d e
b u t c e rt a i n l y M r K h u b a , I t h i n k, h e r a i s e d t h e q u e st i o n o f
h o w. . . h e ra i se d t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f C ri m e
I n t e l l i g e n c e i n t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n .
A n d n o w I m a y b e m i xi n g u p K h u b a a n d M c B r i d e b u t o n e
Page 172 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
or

more

of

them

said

C ri m e

Intelligence

does

not

get

i n v o l v e d i n i n v e st i g a t i o n s. Th a t i s n o t t h e i r j o b . Th e i r j o b i s
d i ff e r e n t .
B u t i n t h i s c a s e , t h e y h a d b e g u n t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d i t
was then handed over to us and that was changed.

That is

what I was told.
And then of course, you have, according to Mr Khuba
a n d M s M b e ki s a yi n g , a l t h o u g h y o u a re g o i n g t o i n v e st i g a t e
t h i s, d o n o t i n vo l v e M r S e s o k o , yo u k n o w.
10

S o t h e r e a r e t h o s e t h i n g s.

But this is what I wrote here

a b o u t i t . T h e m e m o r a n d u m I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C a n I b e o f s o m e a s si st a n c e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? I t i s st a t e d 1 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Wa i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e yo u g o t i t ? O k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s p a rt o f t h e Y 7 B u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , j u st s a y w h e r e i t i s o n t h e r e c o rd .
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I w i l l r e a d f ro m m y n o t e j u st f o r t h e

re c o r d . . . [ i n d i st i n c t ] . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s o n p a g e 11 2 Y 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A l ri g h t .

This is what I wrote here.

T h e m e m o w a s a l s o a d d r e s s e d t o M r H C h a u ke , t h e D P P f o r
Page 173 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
Southern Gauteng. The purpose of that memo is said to be:
“ To p r o vi d e a su m m a r y o f t h e f a ct s a n d e v i d e n c e i n
t h e m a t t e r f o r t h e D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P ro s e c u t i o n s ,
South

Gauteng to

be able to

make

an

i n f o rm e d

d e ci si o n r e g a r d i n g t h e p ro s e c u t i o n o f t h e m a t t e r. . . ”
That is said to be the purpose of the memo by Mr
M o s e n g . A n d t h e n , I m a d e a n o t e h e r e t h a t sa y s:
“ T h e p a rt o f M r K h u b a ’s v e r si o n t h a t s a y s t h a t t h e
i n v e st i g a t i o n
10

had

not

been

completed

and

that

t h e r e f o r e t h e J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 w a s n o t a f i n a l r e p o rt ,
seems

to

be

c o rr o b o r a t e d

by

Mr

M o s e n g ’s

m e m o ra n d u m o f 1 3 F e b ru a r y 2 0 1 4 .
I n p a rt o f 6 . 3 o f h i s m e m o , M r M o s e n g s a i d i n p a rt
when

t a l ki n g

about

h i s vi e w,

that

M a j o r G e n e ra l

Sibiya did not appear to have been involved...”
He said:
“The

ce l l

phone

evidence,

h o w e v e r,

does

not

c o r r o b o r a t e h i s p r e s e n c e d u ri n g t h e o p e r a t i o n s. T h i s
c a n b e l o o k e d a t a g a i n m o r e cl o s e l y a f t e r a n e x p e rt
20

h a s b e e n p r o cu r e d t o a n a l y se t h e c e l l p h o n e d a t a .
T h i s c o u l d n o t b e d o n e b y t h e t i m e o f w ri t i n g t h i s
re p o rt d e sp i t e i t b e i n g p o i n t e d o u t t o t h e i n v e st i g a t i n g
team...”
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I j u st t h o u g h t I w o u l d m e n t i o n t h a t t h a t
Page 174 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
i s w h a t ca u g h t m y a t t e n t i o n a s I w a s l o o ki n g b u t I a m n o t
s u r e i f t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g t h a t yo u w a n t t o a d d o n t h e i s s u e o r
t o cl a ri f y, a s t h e r e p o rt i s f i n a l . . . w a s f i n a l o r n o t . I t h i n k y o u
h a ve s a i d w h a t yo u w a n t e d t o sa y.
MR NHLEKO:
but

I

also

N o , I t h i n k l a r g e l y t h a t i s w h a t I h a ve b e e n . . .

definitely

it

will

be

to

the

benefit

of

this

C o m m i s si o n i f M s M b e ki w a s t o b e l o c a t e d a n d r e p o rt .
Now

for

i n st a n c e ,

in

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n

r e p o rt

by

We r k sm a n s, t h e y p r o vi d e a n e xp l a n a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e
10

a l s o e n g a g e d w i t h M s K u ki a s t o t h i s q u e st i o n w h y M r
Sesoko was not to be involved with Mr Khuba in the... to the
c o n st r u ct i o n o f t h a t f i r st r e p o rt .
I t h i n k M s M b e ki a n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o v e rb a t i m b u t I a m
a l s o j u st p a ra - p h r a si n g i n a s e n se .

It was concerned about

t h e f a ct t h a t M r S e s o ko h a d a cri m i n a l re c o r d w h i c h h e w a s
st i l l i n t h e p r o ce s s o f e x p u n g i n g f r o m t h e s y st e m .
And that with his involvement, she thought it was going
t o b e c h a l l e n g e d b y t h e i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n s, f o r i n st a n c e , o n
t h e g r o u n d s o f t h a t cri m i n a l r e c o r d a n d s o o n . S o m e t h i n g t o
20

t h a t e ff e ct .
L o o k, a s t o w h a t t h a t m e a n s, r e a l l y, I t h i n k i t c a n t h e n b e
f u rt h e r e x p l o re d w i t h h e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : . . . a s a n d w h e n s h e d e p o s e s so m e i n f o r m a t i o n
with this Commission.
Page 175 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . N o , n o , n o . T h a t i s f i n e . I kn o w t h a t
a t s o m e st a g e l a s t y e a r, I a s k e d w h e t h e r a t t e m p t s h a v e b e e n
m a d e t o m a k e c o n t a ct w i t h M s M b e ki .

I se e m t o u n d e r st a n d

t h a t a t s o m e st a g e , I w a s t o l d s h e a l s o t ri e d t o m a k e co n t a ct
w i t h t h e C o m m i s si o n b u t I a m n o t su re . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

H e r a ff i d a vi t w a s re c e n t l y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . w h e r e t h a t p ro c e s s i s.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

A p p a r e n t l y, s h e . . . w e h a v e g o t t h e d r a f t

t h a t s h e h a s p r e p a r e d b u t i t h a s y e t t o b e d e p o s e d b y h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

A l ri g h t .

B u t j u st g o i n g b a c k

t h e n t o f r o m y o u r si d e . Yo u h a ve s a i d t h a t y o u r e g a r d e d t h e
f i r st r e p o rt a s f i n a l f ro m y o u r p o i n t o f vi e w.
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: And I think you did indeed also say but you
w e re n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e re w a s s o m e t h i n g st i l l t o b e d o n e a t
t h a t t i m e . I t h i n k y o u s a i d y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e . I s t h a t ri g h t ?
A b o u t t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d a n a l y s e s.
MR NHLEKO:
20

here.

O k a y, l e t m e t r y a n d p u t i t i n c o n t e xt st a g e

W h e n t h e m a t t e r a r o s e o f t h e i l l e g a l re n d i t i o n s o f t h e

Z i m b a b w e a n s, t h e r e a re s e ri e s o f e ve n t s l e a d i n g u p t o t h e
p o i n t s o f i n v e st i g a t i o n s.
T h e f i r st p o i n t i s t h a t t h e C i v i l i a n S e c r e t a ri a t o f P o l i c e ,
t h e y d i d s o m e w o r k.

Th e y. . . w h i c h w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i l y

i n v e st i g a t e d b u t b a si c a l l y a n d a n a l y s e s a n d o v e r vi e w o f w h a t
Page 176 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
w e re t h e i s s u e s.
And

if

I

am

not

m i st a k e n ,

that

r e p o rt

made

re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t o t h e t h e n M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e w h o w a s n o t
me.

A n d t h e n t h e r e co m m e n d a t i o n , t h e l o c a l st a t d e a l i n g i n

t h a t r e p o rt d e a l i n g w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s, t h e y r a i s e d t w o
t h i n g s.
T h a t t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t e i t h e r t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e
then

was

to

engage

with

the

M i n i st e r

of

J u st i c e

and

C o n st i t u t i o n a l D e v e l o p m e n t a n d a g re e o n a n a p p o i n t m e n t o f
10

a j u d g e o r a s e n i o r j u d g e o r a re t i r e d j u d g e , I t h i n k.
B u t t h e r e w a s a l s o re f e r e n c e t o t h e D P C I j u d g e h e r e I
t h i n k.

I t m u st h a v e b e e n J u d g e P i l l a y a t t h a t t i m e , t h a t h e

c o u l d a l s o b e u t i l i s e d f o r i n v e st i g a t i ve w o r k a ro u n d t h e
q u e st i o n

of

the

allegations

of

the

re n d i t i o n s

of

the

Z i m b a b w e a n s.
A n d t h e s e co n d r e c o m m e n d a t i o n , i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n ,
s a i d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n c o u l d a l so b e . . . b e c a u s e I t h i n k D P C I
a l s o d i d s o m e i n v e st i g a t i o n a t so m e p o i n t .
They
20

were

i n ve s t i g a t i n g

t h e m se l v e s

e ff e ct i ve l y

in

a

s e n se . T h a t t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n n e e d e d t o b e t a k e n a w a y f r o m
t h e p o l i c e s e r v i ce b e ca u s e t h e y w e r e a l so i m p l i c a t e d , I t h i n k.
T h a t i s m y a s s u m p t i o n . A n d t h e n g a v e i t t o I P I D , a l ri g h t ,
w h i c h I t h i n k w a s t h e c o rr e ct p o s i t i o n .

So it does appear

t h a t t h e t h e n m i n i st e r b e f o r e I c a m e i n t o o k t h a t p o s i t i o n f o r
t h i s i n ve st i g a t i v e w o r k t o b e d o n e b y I P I D .
Page 177 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
A n d t h a t i s w h e n M r K h u b a t h e n g e t s a s si g n e d t o
a ct u a l l y c o n d u ct t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n .
c o r r e ct l y so .

I t h i n k t h e r e w a s. . .

I think there was also the involvement.

I think

s o m e b o d y ci t e d t h e f a ct t h a t t h e C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n ce w a s a l s o
s o m e w h a t i n v o l v e d t o s o m e e xt e n t a n d t h e n p u l l e d o u t a t a
later point.
S o y o u h a d a l l t h o s e ki n d o f p r o c e s s e s.
w a s t h e C ri m i n a l J u st i c e i t s e l f .

Th e t h i r d a re a

I h a ve a l s o d e a l t w i t h t h i s

p a rt i c u l a r i s s u e o f t h e r e n d i t i o n s o f t h e Z i m b a b w e a n s.
10

They

e v e n i s s u e d a st a t e m e n t t o t h a t e ff e ct a n d c a l l e d u p o n a n
i n v e st i g a t i o n t o b e c o n d u ct e d o n t h i s i s s u e .
A n d I t h i n k A d v o c a t e M o se n g i n t h e . . . i n h i s i n t e r a ct i o n s
w i t h We r k s m a n s, t h e i n ve st i g a t o r s e l u d e d t o t h e m e re f a ct
that

the

then

Development

M i n i st e r

also

of

a d d re s s e d

Justice
senior

and

C o n st i t u t i o n a l

management

at

the

N a t i o n a l P r o se c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y a b o u t t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e
i l l e g a l re n d i t i o n s o f t h e Zi m b a b w e a n s a n d t h a t s o m e t h i n g
needed to be done.
S o I a m s a yi n g t h e r e w e r e s e ri e s o f t h e s e p a rt i c u l a r
20

m a t t e r s l o n g b e f o re M r M c B ri d e c a m e i n a n d l o n g b e f o r e I
a l s o ca m e i n , o k a y.

S o , y o u k n o w, c o r r e c t l y s o , a n y b o d y

who comes in may tell me that I found these particular
matters in process and I found them midstream and so
forth and that was basically it.

So I am just clarifying this

area because it is also important to refer to context in a
Page 178 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
sense, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

No, that is alright. But would you

agree with this proposition that if the first report was not
based on a completed investigation, IPID was maybe not
just entitled but obliged to give you a report that is based
on a completed investigation.
MR NHLEKO:

I a m t r y i n g t o h e a r y o u , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

I am not sure what you were saying but

let me repeat what I am saying.
10

MR NHLEKO:

No, no, I am just saying I am trying to hear

you in terms of the point that they are making.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

No, it is a question.

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Would you agree with the proposition

t h a t s a y s i f t h e f i r s t r e p o r t , n a m e l y t h a t o f t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y,
was based – was not based on a completed investigation,
I P I D w a s e n t i t l e d , m a y b e w a s o b l i g e d , a c t u a l l y, t o g i v e y o u
20

a report that was based on a completed investigation.
MR NHLEKO:

In other words, it would have been a

complete investigation, you would not have a report that is
s i t t i n g s o m e w h e r e , y o u k n o w, i n c o m p l e t e , a n d t h e n h a v e
another one which is said to be complete to this end and
so on, so my view would be that if a report is not complete
Page 179 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
– a report is not complete, so all you do, you continue
further work to complete the report before you submit it to
your principal.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

I think that suggests that

you would agree with that proposition.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , j a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . M r H u l l e y.

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Can I also …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Thank you, Chair …[intervenes]

I a m s o r r y, y e s .
Because I think it is a matter that also

arises, honourable Chair from some of the issues that you
said, there is this assertion that investigator ’s reports are
to be signed by an Executive Director of IPID.

Now there

is no law that say that, there is no regulation that says
that.

In fact, there are other major reports that were –

m a j o r i n v e s t i g a t i o n r e p o r t s , I a m s o r r y, w h e r e b y, - I n e e d e d
to qualify that, that were conducted by IPID.

So I will cite

largely to – there was a Mr Angus, for an example, who
20

conducted investigation around the issue of Cato Manor in
Durban,

the

killings

that

were

taking

place

implicating the conduct of the police and so on.

there

and

Now there

was no executive director that signed there, it was the
chief investigator who signed and referred the report to the
N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y. S i m i l a r l y, a l s o w i t h r e g a r d s
Page 180 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
to Marikana, I am told that Mr Gamanjane, one of the
implicated persons who must also appear here as a state
capture to – he was commissioned to do work there.

Now

that report was also not signed by an Executive Director
but it was signed off by a Chief Investigator and referred to
t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y, s o i t i s n o t a m a t t e r
that

would

also

be

performed

any

way

in

law

or

regulations, for example, or IPID Act.
In the work that Werksm ans did they also interacted
10

– specifically interrogated this question and Ms Mbeki, Ms
Kuki Mbeki clarified this issue that it is not so. So but I am
raising this because the impression has been made that if
a report by IPID is valid, it has got to be sanctioned inside
o f – b y t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, t h a t i s n o t c o r r e c t . S o , I a m
raising it because the Chair said something about it.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o , t h a t i s f i n e . M r H u l l e y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

issue

extensively

is

dealt

with

in

the

The particular

affidavits

of

Mr

S a n d i l e J u l y. I w o u l d p r e f e r t o d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f
20

h i s t e s t i m o n y, u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e w i t n e s s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Which issue – is that the question of

who signs or the earlier question that …[intervenes]
ADV HULLEY SC:

The question of who signs the – or

whether the report has to be signed by the Executive
D i r e c t o r.
Page 181 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

That also depends on at what level the

report is being – or the investigation is being conducted,
whether

it

is

a

national

investigation,

provincial

investigation, it is dependent upon the regulations that are
applicable.

U n f o r t u n a t e l y, t h e r e g u l a t i o n s a r e n o t i n t h e

current bundle that we have handed up to you, it was a
m a t t e r t h a t w a s t o b e d e a l t w i t h w i t h M r J u l y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Well, to the extent that this witness has

taken a position on that point, if as an evidence leader you
do not believe he is correct, at some stage before he
leaves the witness stand you need to come back to him and
deal with that, ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We certainly will deal with it.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

enough

reason

to

Ja, otherwise he will have good

think

you

have

not

issue

with

his

position.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Well, if I understand it, Mr Nhleko,

would it be fair to say insofar as that is concerned you say
20

there is no law that makes provision for that, are you
referring to the [indistinct] 40.47 perhaps, what are you
referring to?
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, maybe I should say the witness

just came up with this issue when you may have been on a
c e r t a i n p a t h . Yo u c a n s h e l v e h i s i s s u e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
Page 182 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

A b s o l u t e l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

And deal with it at the right time.

As

long as before at some stage tomorrow before he leaves…
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I n d e e d , M r C h a i r.
Yo u h a v e r a i s e d i t w i t h h i m i f y o u h a v e

an issue with it.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
But otherwise you can stick to the path

that you were on just before he raised that issue.
10

ADV

HULLEY SC:

After

the

investigation

had

been

com pleted by the Werksmans’ team they submitted a report
to you. The report was dated the 24 April.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , y e s , c o r r e c t , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And – but between the time that their

terms of reference were given to them and the time of the
completion of the report, which was the 24 April, there
would

have

been

some

interaction

between

you

and

Werksm ans, would that be correct?
MR NHLEKO:
20

you

mean

Now what kind of interaction exactly?

between

the

time

when

they

investigation and the time when they did what?

started

Do
the

Completed

it?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Between the terms of reference, if my

memory serves me correct, was the 25 February of 2015.
MR NHLEKO:

Right.
Page 183 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

And the report was completed on the 4

A p r i l – s o r r y, t h e 2 4 A p r i l o f 2 0 1 5 . W h a t I a m a s k i n g y o u i s
whether there was interaction in between that time.
MR NHLEKO:

I am not sure whether between that time

but there was ongoing interaction, that is how I will put it.
I would not necessarily pin it down to a specific period.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

There was an ongoing interaction.

ADV HULLEY SC:
10

Sure.

And the interaction that took place

would have been – would have, amongst others -were there
any reports that were being – interim reports that were
being provided to you?
MR NHLEKO:

I cannot recall whether there were interim

reports except that one of the issues I recall was when Mr
July raised what he thought was the lack of cooperation for
instance on the side of Mr Khuba to which my reaction was
b a s i c a l l y, y o u k n o w, c a l l i n g M r K h u b a a n d s a i d l o o k , t h e s e
investigators, I had appointed them, please cooperate with
the investigation and that was it.
20

But it is possible that

t h e r e c o u l d h a v e b e e n o t h e r b r i e f s e v e n i f - y o u k n o w,
when I refer to briefs, I need to qualify this because briefs
b y l a w y e r s i s s o m e t h i n g e l s e , y o u k n o w, b u t b r i e f s i n t h e
context of public roles as we played them, it could be a
brief as an when somebody walks in and they would brief
this is where we are with the investigation or whatever or
Page 184 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
any other process related thereto. So it is possible.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So you got a report back. At least one

of the report backs to you was that Mr Khuba or the IPID
investigators were not cooperating.

Yo u t h e n c o n t a c t e d M r

Khuba.
MR NHLEKO:

N o , n o , l e t m e c o r r e c t y o u , M r H u l l e y. I d i d

not say IPID investigators, I spoke about Mr Khuba.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .
Now there is a litany of investigators of

IPID who are commissioned on a weekly basis so I would
not say that they were not cooperating because the issue
in this instance was pertaining to the investigation report
produced by Mr Khuba.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Ve r y w e l l .

S o I w a n t e d t o c o r r e c t t h a t , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:
back

to

you

S o , i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, t h e r e p o r t

was

specifically

that

Mr

Khuba

is

not

cooperating.
MR NHLEKO:
20

I h a v e r e s p o n d e d , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

I a m s o r r y, I d i d n o t h e a r t h e q u e s t i o n .
What I had asked the witness earlier

on, I was trying to understand what the report back from
Werksm ans was,

so my earlier question

was, was the

report back that Mr Khuba or the IPID investigators were
not cooperating, understand from the response that was
Page 185 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
given was that he was speaking specifically about Khuba.
I just want to make it clear or I just want to understand,
was

the

report

back

from

Werksmans

that

Mr

Khuba

specifically was not cooperating?
MR NHLEKO:

I r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t q u e s t i o n , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, j u s t r e s p o n d a g a i n s o t h a t t h e r e i s

no doubt.
MR NHLEKO:

They responded that Mr July reported to me

that Mr Khuba seemed not to have been cooperative with
10

the investigation.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Wa s t h e r e a n y r e p o r t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e

other two, that is Mr McBride and Mr Sesoko?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I do not remember anything except that

– of course, at a later point I was being briefed.

Whether

at the conclusion of their report or towards the conclusion I
also cannot recall but people that had been interviewed
and

spoken

to,

they

also

included

statement was taken in that regard.

Mr

McBride

and

a

I was there something

simply to that effect.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w i n i t i a l l y y o u g o t y o u r PA t o

telephone Mr Khuba, would that be correct?
MR NHLEKO:

No, that is incorrect.

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

S o y o u r PA d i d n o t p h o n e M r K h u b a ?

I do not know whether she did.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Well, if she did - and Mr Khuba
Page 186 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
testified that she had phone him on several occasions – if
she did phone him, on whose instructions would she be
acting?
MR NHLEKO:

I also would not know really on whose

instructions it would be.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

I n f a c t s h e – s o r r y.

Look, even in the affidavit deposed by Mr

Khuba he does not say that he was called several times, so
I think there is a little bit of an exaggeration there, I mean,
10

just…
ADV HULLEY SC:

Just bear with me?

But the point is

a n d I w i l l g e t t o t h e r e f e r e n c e s h o r t l y, t h e p o i n t i s t h a t i f
she did phone him, she would not have been acting on your
instructions according to you.
MR NHLEKO:

Look, I would not know what people in my

o f f i c e a n d , y o u k n o w, w h a t t h e y d o a n d w h o d o t h e y p h o n e
and say what to other people and so on.

I mean, there is

n o w a y I w o u l d k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well, you may or may not remem ber

whether if she did phone you had asked her to phone.

I

think the question is whether if she phoned she would have
phoned because you asked her to or you might say I
cannot remember whether I had asked her to and it could
be that she phoned without me asking her to – so what is
your recollection around that?
Page 187 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

No, I mean, why would I phone Mr Khuba?

What for?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

I mean, that is the point.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

So the short answer …[intervenes]

The only call I remember…

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja?
Is the one pertaining to a matter that was

brought to my attention by Mr July the investigating person
10

for Werksm ans.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

And that is basically…

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

J a , o k a y.

N o w – s o I s e e t h a t , y o u k n o w, c l a i m s h a v e

been made that I called him and I wanted him to come
d o w n t o C a p e To w n .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .
I m e a n , C a p e To w n i s t h e o t h e r e n d o f t h e

w o r l d f r o m L i m p o p o , y o u k n o w, i t i s n o t – s o w h y w o u l d I
20

want to do that?

R e a l l y.

T h i s p e r s o n , b y t h e w a y, h a s g o t

nothing to do with me because it is not a person that I
s u p e r v i s e d d i r e c t l y, o k a y ?

It would be something else, for

instance, if – and I would understand

- that let us take a

person like Mr McBride in his …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r.
Page 188 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
MR NHLEKO:

In his position as the Executive Director of

IPID that indeed it is possible that I would summon him to
meetings

w h e r e v e r,

and

so

on

and

so

on.

But

an

i n v e s t i g a t o r, r e a l l y …
CHAIRPERSON:

Is – I have not refreshed my memory on

this, is what you are saying that you would not have
contacted Mr Khuba at all because if you wanted something
relating to IPID you would talk to the Executive Director or
is the position that there is an occasion that you say you
10

did call him but not another occasion?
MR NHLEKO:

No, not at any other occasion, in fact

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

But the ...[intervenes]
...in fact I do not know why Honourable

Chair this thing is made an issue because precisely it is
h e a r s a y, I m e a n s o m e b o d y s a y s m y PA c a l l e d h i m , a n d
Khuba does not say that I called him, then that is the
difference, it would be something else if we ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well let’s talk about you and Mr Khuba

because I seem to remember that Mr Khuba testified that
y o u c a l l e d h i m , t h a t i s w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o c l a r i f y.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Whether you are saying yes I did call

him maybe once, for a specific reason but if he says or if
somebody says I called him on another occasion that is
Page 189 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
what I am denying, or whether your position is I never
called Mr Khuba for anything.
MR NHLEKO:

No I already clarified on the issue of calling

Mr Khuba, that I indeed did, once.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, o n l y o n c e .

Only once and in fact in his affidavit that is

what he says.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ja, this is what he talks about.
He says no it was just a call, a very brief

call from me and it was once.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , j a o k a y.

And then he refers then to this other person

t h a t h e c a l l s – h e s a y s i t w a s m y PA w h o c a l l e d h i m
because he does not even cite that person in the affidavit
a s t o w h o i t w a s e x c e p t t o s a y t h a t t h a t w a s m y PA .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , o k a y.

W h o c a l l e d h i m a n d s a i d w h a t e v e r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Mr Chair the relevance – sorry the

passages in Exhibit Y4 it is the affidavit of Mr Khuba and it
20

appears at page 25.
CHAIRPERSON:
Nhleko

says

Does it say anything other than what Mr

namely

Mr

Khuba

talks

about

Mr

Nhleko

calling him once, he doesn’t talk about ...[intervenes]
ADV HULLEY SC:

That is true, he records Mr Nhleko

personally calls him once.
Page 190 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d a s f a r a s t h e PA i s c o n c e r n e d i t i s

several calls.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, a n d i t i s M r K h u b a w h o s a y s

M r N h l e k o ’ s PA c a l l e d h i m s e v e r a l t i m e s .
ADV HULLEY SC:

So he says the following, it is page 25

of that exhibit at paragraph 81, he says:
“Shortly before Mr McBride’s suspension in March
of 2015 I received a number of calls from the then
10

Minister of Police, Minister Nati Nhleko’s personal
assistant who did not disclose her name, save to
say

that

she

was

his

personal

assistant.

She

informed me that Minister Nhleko wanted to see me.
I informed her that I required the permission from
the Executive Director of IPID, Mr McBride, before I
could do so she phoned again and told me that
M i n i s t e r N h l e k o w a n t e d m e t o f l y t o C a p e To w n o v e r
the weekend and that he would cover the costs.

I

told her that it would make no difference whether
20

the meeting took place during office hours or over
the

weekend,

because

as

long

as

the

meeting

related to IPID business the Executive Director had
to know about it.

On the following day Minister

Nhleko phoned me and told me to cooperate with
Werksm ans Attorneys regarding the January and
Page 191 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
March 2014 reports.
Now there were several calls from her according to Mr
Khuba, if we are to understand correctly you say that you
don’t know what your – the staff within your office are
doing, but what is clear is on your version and on Mr
Khuba’s version you did phone him.
CHAIRPERSON:

He said he phoned him once.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s y o u d i d p h o n e h i m , b u t y o u p h o n e d

h i m o n c e , t h a t i s c l e a r, t h e r e i s n o d o u b t a b o u t t h a t , t h a t
10

you are conceding to.
MR NHLEKO:

Both myself and Mr Khuba we talk about

the same thing.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
Once, that’s what happened.

Now Chair I

do not know why we are ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on Mr Nhleko, I think let’s allow Mr

Hulley to continue, exactly what your concern is might be
addressed in the next question.
MR NHLEKO:
20

No I am sure Chair that it is not because

he has already made this point.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, a l r i g h t . J a .

The point he has made which is also made

in Khuba’s affidavit, is that essentially this Commission is
talking about a faceless person.
she did not disclose her name.

Khuba’s affidavit says

So Mr Hulley why do you

Page 192 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
c a l l h e r m y PA , w h e n m y PA h a d a n a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I think the affidavit of Mr Khuba, the

p a s s a g e t h a t M r H u l l e y r e a d s a i d t h e M i n i s t e r ’ s PA .
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , b u t h e s a y s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

T h a t ’ s w h y h e i s s a y i n g y o u r PA .

No, no, no in the affidavit Mr Khuba himself

he then says she did not disclose her name.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ye s .
So the question arises maybe to both Mr

H u l l e y a n d M r K h u b a , s o t h e PA I h a d , h a d a n a m e a n d a
surname, so this Commission where is it going to talk
about faceless people.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

No Mr Nhleko ...[intervenes]

NHLEKO:

Because

the

point

is

this

Chair

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
us take long.
20

No, Mr Nhleko, no, no, no.

These are some of the things that make

Mr Khuba according to the passage that Mr

Hulley read ...[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:

Right.

CHAIRPERSON:

Said that the person who called her said

she was or he was, I can’t remember whether it was a he
or a she.
MR NHLEKO:

No she.
Page 193 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e w a s t h e M i n i s t e r ’ s PA , b u t d i d n o t

disclose her name, right.

So you have confirmed to Mr

Hulley that you did call Mr Khuba once and you have said
that Mr Khuba also talks about one occasion when you
called him.

He then talks about these other calls from the

p e r s o n t h a t h e u n d e r s t o o d o r w a s t o l d w a s y o u r PA , I t h i n k
Mr Hulley must then come up with the next question and
then you answer that, let’s make progress, let’s hear what
the question is.
10

MR NHLEKO:

N o , I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r, t h a n k s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

C h a i r m a y b e b e f o re h e c o n t i n u e s,

b e f o r e h e a n s w e r s, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f M r H u l l e y w a n t s t o r e a l l y
take this issue of a call that Khuba says was made by
s o m e b o d y e l s e t o h i m b e c a u se i f h e w a n t s t o t a k e i t f u rt h e r
h e s h o u l d a l so g i v e t h e w i t n e s s t h e b e n e f i t o f w h a t K h u b a i s
s a i d t o h a v e t o l d M c B ri d e a b o u t t h e s a m e i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, o k a y.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

B e ca u s e w e h a ve t h a t v e r y s a m e i s s u e

i n M cB ri d e ’s st a t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 w h e r e M cB ri d e s a y s
20

t h a t K h u b a t o l d h i m s o m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t i n r e s p e ct o f t h e
same thing.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

M a y b e f o r h i s b e n e f i t I ca n j u st re a d i t

o u t t h e n h e c a n d e ci d e w h e t h e r t o w h a t e xt e n t h e w a n t s t o
t a k e i t f u rt h e r.
Page 194 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k t h a t i s w h y I w a s s a yi n g M r N h l e k o

m u st w a i t f o r t h e n e xt q u e st i o n b e c a u se d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t
t h a t q u e st i o n i s i t m i g h t i n cl u d e w h a t y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t .
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i n d e e d .

B u t w e a r e a t t w o m i n u t e s t o f i ve .

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I am not sure whether it is convenient to

w r a p i t u p b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e m u st st o p a t f i ve , w r a p i t u p a t
t h i s st a g e o r d o y o u w a n t t o p u t y o u r n e xt q u e st i o n a n d t h e n
10

o n ce w e ’ v e g o t t h e a n s w e r w e a d j o u r n ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

We l l I t h i n k l e t m e , b e c a u s e i t s e e m s

that something, a little bit more might come out of this but
w h a t I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h j u st t o a l l a y o r t o d e a l w i t h o n e
c o n ce r n t h a t h a s b e e n ra i se d b y M r N h l e k o , r e l a t i n g t o t h i s
s o - c a l l e d n a m e l e s s – so r r y f a c e l e s s p e r s o n .

That is not

w h a t Mr K h u b a i s sa yi n g , h e i s n o t i d e n t i f yi n g h e r a s a
f a c e l e s s p e r s o n , h e i s s a yi n g a s p e ci f i c p e r s o n .

If I tell you

t h a t I sp o k e t o a p e r s o n w h o i d e n t i f i e d h e r s e l f a s y o u r w i f e ,
n o w u n l e s s y o u h a ve g o t s e v e r a l t h o u s a n d w i v e s, t h e n i t
20

b e co m e s d i ff i c u l t o f c o u r s e , b u t i f y o u h a v e o n l y g o t o n e w i f e
i t i s e a s y t o k n o w w h o t h a t p e r s o n i s, y o u g o t b a c k t o h e r
a n d y o u s p e a k t o h e r, s h e w i l l t h e n t e l l y o u a ct u a l l y t h a t i s
n o t t ru e , b u t yo u c a n t h e n s a y t o u s a s f a r a s y o u r a ff i d a vi t
o r y o u r r e s p o n s e i s c o n c e rn e d I k n o w t h e p e r s o n t h at h e i s
re f e rr i n g t o , t h e p e r s o n i s M s – a n d t e l l u s w h o t h a t p e r s o n
Page 195 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
i s, a n d s a y I h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o g e t h o l d o f h e r b e ca u s e
f o r t h e l a st t h r e e o r f o u r y e a r s I h a v e n o t b e e n i n t h e
M i n i st r y, I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a s b e c o m e o f h e r, o r s o m e t h i n g
t o t h a t e ff e ct .

Yo u a r e t e l l i n g u s t h a t t h i s i s a f a c e l e s s

p e r s o n , y o u kn o w t h e f a c e o f y o u r PA , p r e su m a b l y y o u h a d a
PA , i s t h a t c o r re ct ?
I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
MR NHLEKO:

I have already attested to that Mr Hulley

but look the example you just made is the most simply stick
10

kind of an example and does not apply in institutions of
governance.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Okay ...[intervenes]

In formal institutions if I pick up a call and I

a m c a l l i n g M r H u l l e y, r i g h t , I w o u l d s a y M r H u l l e y, i s t h a t
Mr Hulley and Mr Hulley says yes it is me, I say Mr Hulley
you are speaking to Nkosinathi Phiwayinkosi Thamsanqa
Nhleko, right, whatever my function is and so forth, I am
c a l l i n g y o u l e t ’ s s a y n o w PA , I a m c a l l i n g y o u o n b e h a l f o f
a Mr Mokhari, okay I am working for Mr Mokhari instructs
20

me that you are this that and that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Nhleko as I understand your position

y o u d i d n o t i n s t r u c t y o u r s e c r e t a r y o r y o u r PA t o c a l l M r
Khuba.
MR NHLEKO:

Why are you bothering to go into that

b e c a u s e o n c e y o u s a y I d i d n o t i n s t r u c t h e r, a n d i f s h e s a i d
Page 196 of 201

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
to Mr Khuba that if she phoned Mr Khuba in the first place
s e v e r a l t i m e s a n d s a i d t h a t s h e w a s – i f t h a t w a s m y PA
phoning she was doing so without my knowledge, that
should be all you should be really interested in, then we
can move on.
MR NHLEKO:

N o I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r, b u t l o w - a n g l i n g i s

quite different from how Mr Hulley wants to take up this
issue.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:
problem is

Ye s , y e s .
And that is why I have a problem, and the

nothing to do with you Chair but a problem in

terms of the manner in which he is angling into this thing,
y o u k n o w i t i s a s i f a i n d e e d I m u s t h a v e i n s t r u c t e d m y PA
to do this and so on, and I am saying no, that cannot be
correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , j a , M r N h l e k o h a s s a i d i f h i s PA d i d

phone Mr Khuba it was not because he had asked her to do
so, but he knows that he phoned him once, Mr Khuba
accepts that he phoned him once.
20

Maybe this is the right

time to adjourn or ...
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
Is that fine?
That is fine.
There is not a question that you wanted

to ...[intervenes]
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28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
ADV HULLEY SC:

Well I do want to ask further questions

related to the very issue around the ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

And then we wrap up?

ADV HULLEY SC:

But if you don’t mind.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, we can say another two, three, five

minutes that’s fine.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
And then we stop.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
10

Chair would you like me to read that

paragraph, I think it will resolve the whole thing.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y r e a d i t M r M o k h a r i .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Well this day in McBride’s affidavit

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, don’t speak far from your mic.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

On my thing it is written as RJL006.

Don’t be far from your mic.

ADV MOKHARI SC: Oh yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
20

So on the same issue Mr McBride

writes as follows, paragraph 30 he says:
“Khuba reported having received multiple calls from
Nhleko’s personal assistant asking him to meet with
Nhleko for a face to face meeting.”
Then he proceeds and he says:
“Nhleko himself called Khuba promising him that the
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28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
M i n i s t e r w i l l c o v e r h i s t r a v e l l i n g c o s t s t o C a p e To w n
on the weekend so that I would not find out about
it.”
So Khuba has told this Commission in an affidavit and
McBride two different things. So that is your result.
CHAIRPERSON:

M m m , m m m , o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Well with respect I am not sure that

that does resolve it at all, because obviously two witnesses
may have a different recollection of things.
10

I do not want

to debate that issue with the witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

That is a matter that Mr Mokhari of

course will be at liberty to raise and to argue.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , m a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d d o , m a y b e

we should adjourn, you also get a chance to look at the
whole thing so when we come back tomorrow you might
w r a p i t u p i n a c e r t a i n w a y.

20

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

But I think let us stop.

To m o r r o w w e

s h o u l d s t a r t e a r l i e r, e a r l i e r t h a n t e n i f w e c a n .
should

start

at

half

past

nine,

will

that

be

I think we
fine

everybody?
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

T h a t w i l l b e f i n e C h a i r.

That will be fine with you Mr Nhleko?

It is good.
Page 199 of 201

with

28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
CHAIRPERSON:

I am going to put a deadline for us to

f i n i s h w i t h M r N h l e k o t o m o r r o w.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s M r C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

We m ust aim to finish with him within

two hours.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s p e r f e c t l y i n o r d e r, o f c o u r s e i t

is subject ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

So we will start at half past nine, I am

saying we must finish with him within two hours, that
10

excludes

re-examination,

so

I

am

not

including

re-

examination on that but from the point of view of the
evidence leader and myself.
ADV MOKHARI SC:

Chair I am very happy with that

timeline because I don’t anticipate re-examination to be
more than 30 minutes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

O k a y, n o t h a n k y o u .

So

t o m o r r o w, s o M r H u l l e y y o u l o o k a t w h a t i s r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t
and we deal with that tomorrow within two hours I want us
to finish with him, so that we can move on to other matters.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
Thank you to you Mr Nhleko and to Mr

Mokhari for all your cooperation, so that we can try and
w r a p t h i s u p t o m o r r o w. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
MR NHLEKO:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h s i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

So we will adjourn and then tomorrow we
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28 JULY 2020 – DAY 239
will start at half past nine.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 2 9 J U LY 2 0 2 0

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