C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 28 JUNE 2019 D AY 1 2 3 20 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 PROCEEDINGS ON 28 JUNE 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready this morning? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Let us start. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d o n o t e n v is a g e b e i n g p a r t ic u l a r l y l o n g 10 in t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f Mr M a h la n g u ’s e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W it h y o u r l e a v e th e r e a r e ju s t a f e w lo o s e e n d s fr o m y e s t e r d a y t h a t I w o u l d li k e t o t i e u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h e n p r o p o s e t o d e a l w i t h th e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e t h a t w a s n e g o ti a te d w i t h S A A a n d t h e n t o m a k e s o m e c o n c l u d i n g o b s e r v a t i o n f o r Mr M a h la n g u ’s c o m m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r a l s o t h e p a r t t h a t w e d id n o t d e a l w i t h th a t w e le f t f o r t h e b r e a k a n d t h e lu n c h b r e a k . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . T h a t i s t r u e C h a ir I s h o u l d u p d a t e y o u o n th a t . y e s t e r d a y. W e h a d s o m e e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h M r M a h la n g u ’s l a w y e r s M y s u g g e s ti o n t o t h e m w a s t h a t t h e y p r o v id e u s i n d u e c o u r s e w i t h a n a ff id a v i t s e t t in g o u t t h o s e f a c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y g o in g t o b e Page 2 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o v i d in g u s w i th a n a ffi d a v it i n r e s p o n s e t o o n e o f t h e a ffi d a v i ts y o u w i ll r e c a l l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m y s u g g e s t io n y e s t e r d a y w a s t h a t w e g e t t h a t a l t o g e t h e r in a s in g l e a ffi d a v i t i n d u e c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u b j e c t t o y o u r d ir e c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja no that… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I f y o u a r e c o m f o r ta b le w i t h t h a t t h a t is m y proposal. CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a t i s fi n e i t i s u n lik e ly t o b e a n y th i n g c o n tr o v e r s i a l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I t w a s o n t h a t b a s is . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w e m a d e t h e s u g g e s t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M a h l a n g u th e r e w e r e a f e w a s p e c ts o f y e s t e r d a y a ft e r n o o n ’s e v i d e n c e th a t I w a n t e d t o ju s t c la r i fy th is m o r n i n g s o t h a t w e c a n h a v e t h e b a c k g r o u n d i n p la c e b e f o r e 20 w e m o v e to th e q u e s ti o n o f t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e . Th e fir s t o f t h o s e j u s t r e l a t e s t o y o u r k n o w le d g e o f t h e tr a d in g a c t iv i t ie s o f I n li n e Tr a d in g . M r M a h l a n g u y o u w il l r e c a l l in th e c o u r s e o f y e s t e r d a y a ft e r n o o n I q u e s t io n e d w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a w a r e th a t I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s i n t h e b u s i n e s s o f c a r s a l e s , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . Page 3 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I h a v e i t y o u r e v id e n c e w a s t h a t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h a t a t a n y p o i n t i n 2 0 1 6 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i n r e l a t io n t o Mr K i n g r e m e m b e r Mr B r e n d a n K i n g w a s th e i n d i v i d u a l w h o Mr M n g a d i a s k e d fo r h is d e t a i ls to b e in s e r t e d i n th e s u b m i s s io n r a t h e r th a n h is , d o y o u r e c a ll th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e a t t h e t i m e o f s u b m i t ti n g t h e b i d th a t Mr K i n g h a d r e s ig n e d p r io r t o t h a t a s a d i r e c t o r o f I n l i n e 10 Tr a d in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d lik e o n t h a t n o t e C h a i r j u s t to t a k e u s to M r K in g ’s a ff id a v i t w h e r e t h o s e f a c t s a r e s e t o u t . M r M a h la n g u y o u w il l fi n d t h e m i n M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d l e w h i c h i s E x h i b i t D D 2 a n d y o u w i ll fi n d it r i g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h a t . C h a ir I d i d a s k t h a t y o u h a v e M s N h a n ts i ’s b u n d le a v a i l a b le t o y o u t h i s m o r n i n g a s w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w th a t s o m e ti m e s I a m n o t p r o v i d e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k th e y m i g h t b e a t t h e b a c k o n y o u r l e f t C h a ir. Yo u a r e l o o k i n g f o r D D 2 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k my R e g is tr a r s o m e t i m e s d e c i d e s t h a t s h e w i ll n o t p u t s o m e o f t h e s e h e r e s h e w a n t m e t o s tr e tc h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. m a y n o t b e a b a d t h in g . W e ll w e s i t ti n g s o m u c h o f d a y t h a t C h a ir w e – a n d M r M a h la n g u w e w o u ld – I w o u ld l ik e t o a s k th a t w e g o to p a g e 3 1 7 o f E x h i b i t D D 2 w h ic h is r i g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e f il e . Page 4 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d w i t h th a t q u e s ti o n l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n a n d i t m a y b e i t is a q u e s t io n y o u m a y h a v e in t e n d e d to ask. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u k n o w in 2 0 1 6 p r i o r t o y o u r c o n s o r ti u m p u t ti n g in it s b i d a t S A A w h o th e d ir e c t o r s o f In li n e Tr a d in g w e r e a s a m a t te r o f f a c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : 10 N o C h a ir I d id n o t k n o w. I g u e s s t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t w e h a d w a s o n ly – w a s t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d to u s b y M r M n g a d i . CHAIRPERSON: By Mr Mngadi? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t h e p r o v id e d to y o u d i d i t s t a te c l e a r l y th a t – d i d it s ta t e c l e a r ly w h o t h e d ir e c t o r s w e r e o r d i d h e ju s t g i v e y o u h is – t h e n a m e o f M r K i n g a n d h i m s e l f. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: He… CHAIRPERSON: How was it put? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. T h e r e w a s – h e d id 20 m e n ti o n t h e n a m e o f t h e C E O t h e n o f In li n e Tr a d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : A n d s u b s e q u e n tly to th a t h e c a m e to u s a n d t h e n h e s a i d t h a t p e r s o n a c t u a ll y h a s p a s s e d a w a y f o r some reason. CHAIRPERSON: He said the person has passed away? Page 5 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . T h e C E O y e s a c t u a l ly p a s s e d a w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o t h a t w a s b a s ic a l ly o u r d is c u s s io n w i th h i m t o s a y w h o a c t u a l ly a r e t h e s e g u y s fr o m – fr o m I n li n e Tr a d in g a n d t h e n w h e n h e g o t b a c k t o u s – a c tu a l ly t h a t w a s d u r i n g t h e c a ll s w h e n w e w e r e a c t u a l ly d o i n g t h i s e x e r c is e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 A n d t h e n h e s a i d a c t u a ll y t h e C E O h a s p a s s e d o n . A n d t h e n h e s a id a c t u a ll y t h e C E O h a s p a s s e d o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Did Mr Mngadi say to you that he was a director o f I n l i n e Tr a d i n g o r d i d y o u ju s t t a k e i t th a t h e w a s a d i r e c t o r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e d i d n o t – h e d i d n o t a c t u a l ly m e n ti o n a n d w e j u s t m a d e a s s u m p t io n o n t h a t b a s i s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u ju s t a f o ll o w u p q u e s ti o n t h e r e a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t h e r e fe r r e d t o i t a s h is c o m p a n y, is t h a t r ig h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 He was part of the company yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Ye s . S o it w a s o n – a t t h e b a s is o f a s s u m p t io n th a t y o u r e g a r d e d h i m a s h o l d i n g a d ir e c t o r p o s i ti o n , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . T h e p e r s o n w h o p a s s e d a w a y d o Page 6 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u r e c a ll h i s n a m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : U n f o r tu n a te ly I c a n n o t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h in k p a g e 3 1 7 m i g h t b e a b l e t o a s s is t y o u . B e c a u s e a t p a g e 3 1 7 is t h e a ffi d a v i t th a t h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n b y Mr K i n g C h a ir a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e p a g e a g a in ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 1 7 . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t to w a r d s th e b a c k o f t h a t fi l e . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t M s N h a n ts i ’s f il e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is Ms N h a n ts i ’s f il e E x h i b it D D 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d r i g h t a t t h e b a c k a t p a g e 3 1 7 y o u w i ll fi n d t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r K i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Mahlangu if we pick it up at paragraph 3 c o u l d y o u p l e a s e r e a d w h a t is s t a t e d t h e r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 “ I w o u l d l ik e t o s t a t e t h a t M r G a r r y R o n a l d G il la r d a n d I w e r e b u s i n e s s p a r t n e r s s i n c e 2 0 1 8 s in c e 2 0 0 8 . I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o Mr M n g a d i b y G a r r y i n li n e o f n o r m a l b u s in e s s . M r M n g a d i o v e r t h e y e a r s b r o u g h t s e v e r a l v e h ic l e s f r o m I n li n e Tr a d in g p a s s in g o v e r a f e w c li e n ts to t h e b u s i n e s s . ” Page 7 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: “ B e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 6 M r E r ic M b e z i t o o k o v e r I n l i n e Tr a d in g 1 0 P T Y LT D b e i n g o n t h e 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 I r e s ig n e d a s a d ir e c t o r o f In li n e Tr a d i n g 1 0 P T Y LT D . U n f o r t u n a t e ly Mr Mbezi passed away on the February a week after my – my resignation. 9 I was n o t a w a r e o f a n y d e a l in g s b e t w e e n B N P C a p it a l, M r M n g a d i o r M r M b e z i . I w a s o n ly m a d e a w a r e o f B N P C a p it a l b y O U TA in t h e p r e s s i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 . ” 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you Mr M ahlangu. Can I take it that t h e s e f a c ts a s th e y s e t o u t b y M r K in g i n p a r a g r a p h 3 a n d p a r a g r a p h s 4 w e r e n o t k n o w n t o y o u a t th e ti m e y o u t h a t y o u i n c lu d e d h i m in th e b i d p u r s u a n t to M r M n g a d i ’s in s tr u c ti o n s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s e e m s t o m e th a t i t is u n c e r t a i n fr o m M r K i n g ’s a ffi d a v i t w h e n h e r e s ig n e d fr o m I n l in e Tr a d in g a n d th a t c o u l d b e 20 i m p o r t a n t. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u r e a d 4 d i ffe r e n tly ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir it is n o t t h e m o s t c l e a r l y fr a m e d s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e i t is d e a l i n g w i t h t w o s u b je c t m a t t e r s b o t h w h e n Mr… CHAIRPERSON: In one sentence. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M b e z i t o o k o v e r – in d e e d – a n d h is Page 8 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e s ig n a ti o n . C h a i r t h e r e a r e C I P C r e c o r d s i n r e la t io n t o In li n e Tr a d i n g w h ic h w il l r e fl e c t c le a r ly t h e d a t e s o f r e s ig n a t io n . I a m a w a r e o f h a v i n g seen those. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e c o m m i s s io n ’s r e c o r d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y w e r e n o t in c l u d e d h e r e b u t w e c a n c e r t a i n l y m a k e t h e m a v a i la b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t c la r i ty a s t o th e d a t e o n w h ic h M r K i n g le f t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M b e z i to o k o v e r c a n b e e s t a b l is h e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a t i s f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e m o m e n t c e r t a i n ly I h a d r e a d p a r a g r a p h 4 b u t I d o s e e t h e a m b i g u i ty a s i n d i c a t in g t h a t th e 5 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 w a s t h e d a te o n w h ic h Mr K i n g r e s i g n e d a s a d i r e c t o r. B u t t h e C I P C r e c o r d s w i ll m a k e t h a t c le a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . I t h i n k w h a t h a p p e n e d i s w h a t s h o u ld 20 h a v e b e e n tw o s e n te n c e s w e r e p u t i n o n e s e n te n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s p r e c is e ly. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr e c is e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e c a n c e r t a i n l y c l a r if y t h a t a n d i f a n y Page 9 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 is s u e b e c o m e s o f i t i n r e l a ti o n t o r e s p o n s e s w e w il l t a k e i t f u r th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u h a d y o u k n o w n t h e s e f a c ts a s s t a te d o n p a g e 3 1 7 a n d 3 1 8 o f Ex h ib i t D D 2 w o u ld y o u h a v e e n t e r e d in t o a c o n s o r ti u m t o t e n d e r f o r tr a n s a c t io n a l a d v is o r s e r v ic e s to S A A w i t h I n li n e Tr a d in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n . Ye s a n d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 L e t m e b r e a k it d o w n . Would you have p r o p o s e d to S A A t h a t y o u e n te r i n to a c o n s o r t iu m w i t h a n e n t i ty w h o s e e x p e r i e n c e w a s i n m o to r v e h ic l e s a l e s fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t e n d e r in g f o r tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r s e r v i c e s t o S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r n o I th i n k t h a t my q u e r y g e ts a d d r e s s e d in t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s o h . CHAIRPERSON: Because they… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e j u s t s e e n th a t a s w e l l. CHAIRPERSON: Ja because he says he – he – Mr Mbezi passed away o n t h e 9 F e b r u a r y a w e e k a ft e r h i s r e s i g n a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e m u s t h a v e r e s ig n e d … Page 10 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t p r i o r w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r o u n d b e g i n n in g o f. . ; . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Of February of 2016, A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m in d e b t e d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . B u t w e w il l n o n e t h e l e s s j u s t h a v e 10 t h e C I P C r e c o r d s a v a il a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t t h e r e is n o i s s u e a r o u n d th o s e d a t e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u I w o u l d li k e t o g o j u s t t o a f e w lo o s e e n d s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e F S B l ic e n c e is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I th i n k w h i le I w a s a p p ly in g m y m in d t o t h i s I m is s e d o u t o n th e a n s w e r t o t h e q u e s ti o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u p u t t o M r M a h l a n a g u a n d I g u e s s t h a t i n a n s w e r i n g i t h e c a n n o w a ls o ta k e i n to a c c o u n t th a t i f l ik e m e h e h a d n o t p ic k e d t h i s u p th a t M r K i n g s a y s h e r e s ig n e d fr o m I n li n e Tr a d in g a t t h e b e g i n n in g o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 . S o t h e a n s w e r – t h e q u e s ti o n th a t I t h i n k h a d b e e n p u t to y o u w a s w h e th e r h a d y o u b e e n a w a r e o f t h e f a c ts Page 11 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 set out in paragraph 3 and 4? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or 4 whether you w o u ld have gone in t o t h e p a r t n e r s h i p w i th In li n e Tr a d i n g I t h i n k th a t w a s th e q u e s ti o n . I d id n o t h e a r t h e a n s w e r. W h a t w a s y o u r a n s w e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s S ir w h a t I s a i d w a s g iv e n t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t is p r e s e n t – is p r e s e n t e d y o u k n o w b e f o r e – b e f o r e m e w e a c t u a l ly w o u l d n o t a c tu a lly p a r tn e r e d w i th t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d … 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s b u t I t h in k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C a n I q u a l i fy ? We would not h a v e p a r t n e r e d w i th th e m o n th e b a s is t h a t Ms H o f m e y r h a s a c t u a ll y ju s t h i g h l ig h t e d o n t h e b a s is th a t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y p l e a s e ju s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e fo r s o m e r e a s o n I am not hearing you. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Is i t my v o ic e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e it is n o t y o u i t is m y e a r s . Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a m f in e n o w. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k y o u a r e f in e b u t d o n o t g o t o o c l o s e t o t h e m ic r o p h o n e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s S ir. W h a t I a c tu a l ly s a id w a s I w o u ld n o t h a v e a c tu a l ly p a r t n e r e d w i t h t h e m o n th e b a s is th a t Page 12 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w h a t M s H o f m e y r j u s t h i g h l ig h t e d t o s a y I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s a c t u a l ly in a business of … CHAIRPERSON: Was a car dealership. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s o o n th a t b a s is w e w o u ld n o t h a v e a c t u a ll y p a r t n e r e d w i th – i f w e a c t u a ll y k n e w th a t i n fo r m a t i o n b u t in f o r m a ti o n th a t w a s p r e s e n t e d b e f o r e u s w a s s o m e t h in g e ls e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Mr M a h l a n g u ju s t to f o ll o w t h a t u p . I f y o u h a d k n o w n M r K i n g w a s n o lo n g e r a s s o c i a t e d w i t h I n l in e Tr a d i n g o n t h e 10 d a t e y o u p u t in t h e b i d I a s s u m e y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e r e f e r r e d t o h i m a s p a r t o f t h e te a m ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o g o t o th e is s u e o f t h e F S B l ic e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a g a i n Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u – w h e n y o u w e r e p u t ti n g in t h e t e a m y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t M r M n g a d i n o lo n g e r d i d n o t w a n t h i s n a m e t o a p p e a r, is th a t c o r r e c t ? 20 O r b e fo r e t h e b id d o c u m e n ts w e r e s u b m i t t e d t o S A A w e r e y o u a w a r e a t t h a t t i m e t h a t h e – h is n a m e d i d n o t a p p e a r a m o n g t h e t e a m a n d t h a t h e d i d n o t w a n t h is n a m e t o a p p e a r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S i r y e s – y e s te r d a y a c t u a ll y I r e s p o n d e d t o th a t p a r t ic u l a r q u e s ti o n . W h a t I s a i d th e r e w a s a c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n M r M o y o a t t h e o ffi c e a n d Mr M n g a d i w h ic h w a s s e n t o n th e S a tu r d a y to a c t u a ll y r e q u e s t M r M o y o t o r e m o v e h is Page 13 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 d e t a i l a n d i t i s o n ly n o w t h a t a s I s a i d t w o w e e k s b a c k t h a t I s a w t h a t e m a i l b u t a s f a r a s t h e b i d w a s c o n c e r n e d I th o u g h t th e y w e r e – y o u k n o w i t w a s b a s ic a l ly a n I n li n e Tr a d in g s o r t o f p la n t o s a y w h o s h o u ld a c t u a ll y b e p a r t o f t h a t b i d a s fa r a s I n l i n e Tr a d i n g y o u k n o w a n d s ta ff is c o n c e r n e d . S o I w a s n o t a c t u a ll y a w a r e – I w a s a w a r e – I w a s a c t u a ll y m a d e a w a r e y o u k n o w n o w w h e n I a c t u a l ly s a w t h o s e t h i n g s b u t I w a s n o t a c t u a l ly c o m p l e t e ly a w a r e o f it . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m n o t s u r e i f I g e t y o u r a n s w e r. L e t u s ta k e i t step by step. 10 L e t u s le a v e o u t th e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u o n ly b e c a m e a w a r e o f I t h i n k a b o u t t w o w e e k s a g o w h e n y o u w e r e p r e p a r i n g fo r y o u r appearance here. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I ta k e it t h a t b e f o r e th e b i d w a s s e n t t h r o u g h to S A A y o u h a d s e e n w h o t h e m e m b e r s o f th e te a m w e r e w h o w e r e i d e n t i fi e d there? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i n i t ia ll y I h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t M r M n g a d i n a m e d id n o t appear there? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o t th e n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Not… C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s r e m e m b e r C h a ir. Page 14 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a w t h e l is t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: R e m e m b e r C h a ir w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d is t h a t d is c u s s io n h a p p e n e d o v e r t h e w e e k e n d a n d t h e … CHAIRPERSON: No, no M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o w h a t I a m s a y i n g is … C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a c e r ta i n s ta g e y o u s a w t h e l is t o f i d e n ti f y i n g t h e t e a m , is i t n o t ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I s a w t h e lis t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s l e a v e o u t w h e n i t w a s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a c e r ta i n s ta g e y o u s a w t h e n a m e s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e w it h y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W a s t h a t ti m e b e f o r e th e b i d w a s s e n t th r o u g h to SAA? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It was after yes. CHAIRPERSON: It was after? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t s e e t h e lis t o f t h e t e a m m e m b e r s b e f o r e t h e b i d w a s s e n t – t h e b id d o c u m e n t s w e r e s e n t t o S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I did. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s a n d w h e n I s a w i t Mr Mngadi was there. Page 15 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngadi was there? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A t t h a t ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. S o l a te r o n y o u b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t h is n a m e n o l o n g e r a p p e a r e d th e r e b u t th a t w a s a f te r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t w a s a f t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 B u t C h a ir i f I m a y b e p e r m i tt e d t o f o ll o w u p ? M r M a h la n g u I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e f e r r i n g t o w h a t y o u s a w o v e r th e w e e k e n d i n F e b r u a r y a n d w h a t y o u s a w in t h e w e e k e n d o f F e b r u a r y w a s a v e r s i o n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t i n c l u d e d M r M n g a d i ’s n a m e , is t h a t correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I am not sure I understand your q u e s t io n . W h a t I s a w w a s th e e m a i l w h i c h b a s ic a lly … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o s o r r y M r M a h l a n g u r e m e m b e r w e a r e b a c k in 2016. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e o f y e s t e r d a y y o u d id 20 n o t s e e t h a t e m a il ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e 1 3 Fe b r u a r y u n t il t w o w e e k s a g o , correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t s o i f w e c o u l d g o b a c k t o 2 0 1 6 b e c a u s e Page 16 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n s w e a r e w a n ti n g to e s t a b l is h w h a t k n o w l e d g e y o u h a d in 2 0 1 6 p r i o r to s u b m it t in g th e b i d a b o u t w h o t h e I n li n e Tr a d in g r e p r e s e n t a t iv e w a s ? S o c a n I f o ll o w u p o n th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e b id s u b m i s s i o n th a t w a s g iv e n to S A A o n t h e 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 d i d n o t r e f e r t o M r M n g a d i anywhere? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I w a s a w a r e . ADV 10 K AT E HOFMEYR: And were you fu r t h e r aware that the r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f I n l in e Tr a d in g i n d i c a t e d i n t h a t b id s u b m is s io n w a s M r Brendan King? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I w a s a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t o fo ll o w u p o n t h a t d i d y o u ta k e a n y s t e p s t o s a ti s fy y o u r s e l f a s t o M r K i n g ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e c a p a c i ty f o r I n li n e Tr a d in g b e f o r e s u b m i t ti n g t h e b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. J u s t t o r e s p o n d o n t h a t q u e s t io n u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e r u n n i n g a b u s i n e s s h e r e a n d w h e n y o u r u n a b u s i n e s s w e a c t u a lly e n t e r i n to s o m a n y p a r t n e r s h i p s w i t h d i ff e r e n t p a r t n e r s . A n d i t is a c t u a ll y i t is n o t o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty I m e a n 20 as a company… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M a h l a n g u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . T h e q u e s t io n is w h a t s te p s d i d y o u t a k e , is t h a t c o r r e c t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. Page 17 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e y o u s a y I d id n o t ta k e a n y s t e p s a n d i f y o u w a n t to e x p la in w h y y o u c a n e x p l a i n o r I d id t a k e th e s t e p s th e s e w e r e t h e s t e p s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : O k a y. O k a y. I d i d n o t ta k e a n y s t e p s s o I ju s t t o o k th a t i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t a c t u a l ly c a m e fr o m In li n e Tr a d in g to s a y t h i s is t h e ir r e p r e s e n t a t iv e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d to b e s p e c i f ic fr o m M r M n g a d i a n d y o u d i d n o t d e a l w i th a n y o n e e ls e a t I n l in e Tr a d in g d i d y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Except Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t m e c o n fir m t h e t i mi n g y o u k n o w. M s H o f m e y r a s k e d y o u t w o q u e s ti o n s a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a w a r e a n d y o u r a n s w e r s w e r e y e s . W a s th a t a w a r e n e s s b e fo r e th e b i d w a s s e n t t o S A A or was it after? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir r e m e m b e r t h e r e w e r e t w o b i d s h e r e . T h e f ir s t o n e w a s a R F I w h ic h b a s ic a lly i t is t h e o n e t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t h e r e th a t I w a s n o t a w a r e w h ic h w a s s e n t e a r li e r o n i n 20 s o m e t i m e i n F e b r u a r y. Ye s a n d t h e l a s t o n e w a s t h e r e q u e s t f o r proposal. CHAIRPERSON: The response to the RFP? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Page 18 of 279 S o a s f a r a s t h e R F I is 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o n c e r n e d I w a s n o t a w a r e th a t is w h a t I a m s a y i n g y e s . And then I o n ly b e c a m e a w a r e w h e n o b v i o u s l y w e w e r e p r e p a r i n g f o r r e s p o n s e f o r proposal. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o b e f o r e y o u s u b m i t te d t h e b i d t o S A A i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e R F P y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t M r M n g a d i ’s n a m e d i d n o t a p p e a r i n th e lis t o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e t e a m ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D id t h a t s tr ik e y o u a s s tr a n g e i n t h e li g h t o f th e d o m i n a n t r o l e h e a p p e a r e d t o p la y in r e g a r d t o I n li n e Tr a d i n g h e w a s the person who – who was referred to you and he was the person who a p p e a r e d to b e d r iv in g th is p r o c e s s o f t h e c o n s o r ti u m g e t t in g t h is b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To b e h o n e s t C h a ir n o . A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e I h a d n o s u s p i c i o n s w h a ts o e v e r. Ye s . S o I j u s t to o k – a s I s a id t h a t w h e n w e a c tu a l ly d e a l w it h t h e s e p a r tn e r s h ip s y o u k n o w w e d e a l w it h a p a r ti c u l a r c o m p a n y t h e y r e c o m m e n d c e r t a in in d iv i d u a ls y o u k n o w t o th e p a r t ic u l a r s tr u c t u r e a n d t h e y c a n c h a n g e t h a t in d iv i d u a l a s and when. 20 S o t h e r e w a s n o = a n y s u s p ic i o n t h e n a s to w h a t h a s a c t u a ll y c h a n g e d . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th e a b s e n c e o f h is n a m e in th e li s t w o u ld b e s tr a n g e t o y o u a n d t o a n y b o d y i n y o u r p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e l e a d i n g p e r s o n fr o m I n li n e Tr a d i n g th a t w a s d e a l i n g w i t h y o u . Yo u w e r e t h e l e a d e r o f B N P a n d fr o m t h e d e a li n g s th a t y o u h a d h a d w i th h i m i t w a s q u i t e c l e a r t h a t h e w a s t h e l e a d i n g p e r s o n i n Page 19 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e g a r d t o t h i s t e n d e r a n d In li n e Tr a d i n g , a m I – a m I – is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w r o n g th a t h e w a s c l e a r ly a le a d i n g p e r s o n i n r e g a r d t o – fr o m I n l in e Tr a d in g i n r e g a r d to t h i s t e n d e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: a s s u m p t io n . C h a ir I th i n k t h a t is a n I t h i n k h e is t h e p e r s o n t h a t b r o u g h t y o u k n o w t h e tr a n s a c ti o n t o u s . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: But we did not make an a s s u m p t io n t h a t h e is a c t u a ll y w h e t h e r h e i s t h e C E O a s f a r a s y o u 10 k n o w I n l in e Tr a d i n g is c o n c e r n e d o r t h e l e a d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I d i d n o t ta lk a b o u t th e C E O . H e w a s t h e o n ly p e r s o n fr o m I n l in e Tr a d in g t h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h – y o u h a d d e a l t w i t h u p to t h a t s t a g e , is i t n o t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n d e e d is h e n o t th e o n l y p e r s o n t h a t y o u e v e r d e a l t w i t h f r o m I n li n e Tr a d i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y e s . And you knew of no other person or you had – you k n e w n o o t h e r p e r s o n f r o m I n li n e Tr a d i n g t h a t y o u h a d m e t? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r h a d y o u m e t a n y o t h e r p e r s o n fr o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I h a v e n o t – n o – n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 20 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: H e j u s t m e n ti o n e d b e c a u s e w h e n y o u a c t u a ll y a s k a b o u t t h e C E O o f In li n e Tr a d i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: When we ask him about the C E O o f I n li n e Tr a d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o w h o is t h e C E O a n d t h e n h e s a i d t h e g e n t le m a n j u s t p a s s e d o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s o w e t h o u g h t o k a y fi n e . W e d i d n o t a c tu a lly d i g d e e p i n to it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t I a m – w h a t I a m w a n ti n g t o e s t a b l is h is w h e t h e r in y o u r m i n d t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y e ls e t h a t a s s o c i a t e d w it h le a d i n g a n y b o d y e ls e f r o m I n l i n e Tr a d in g t h a t y o u a s s o c i a te d w i th le a d i n g t h i s b id fr o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g s i d e o t h e r t h a n M r M n g a d i ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o it w a s Mr M n g a d i . CHAIRPERSON: S o I t h e n s a y t o y o u I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e f o u n d i t s tr a n g e t h a t t h e le a d m a n o r l e a d p e r s o n fr o m I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s n o t o n t h e lis t a n d t h a t m a y h a v e r a is e d s o m e 20 u n e a s in e s s o n y o u r p a r t a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d to f in d o u t b u t y o u a r e t h e l e a d m a n h o w c o m e y o u a r e n o t i n th e lis t n u m b e r 1 . N u m b e r 2 t o th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n a w a r e t h a t p r e v i o u s l y h e w a s o n t h e l is t y o u w o u ld w a n t to fi n d o u t w h y w a s Mr M n g a d i t a k e n o u t h e is t h e le a d m a n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: He – Chair as I have indicated I Page 21 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h i n k w h e n t h e s u b mi s s io n w a s m a d e it w a s o n th e b a s is o f M r M n g a d i b e i n g p a r t o f t h a t s u b m is s io n . S o o n t h e e v e o f t h e s u b m is s i o n th e y a c t u a ll y r e q u e s t e d o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s t o r e m o v e h is d e ta il a n d t h a t b i d w a s s u b m i tt e d w i t h o u t h is d e t a il b u t M r K i n g ’s d e ta il . So when I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t io n a s to [i n d is t in c t ] h e n c e I w a s – h e n c e I s a id w h e n I a c t u a lly s a w i t a f t e r t h a t I j u s t – I q u e s t io n e d m y s e l f a s t o w h y b u t I d i d n o t d i g d e e p i n to i t a s t o – b e c a u s e a s t o w h a t th e r e a s o n s a r e . B e c a u s e h e w a s s t il l p a r t o f t h e t e a m s o I t h o u g h t p e r h a p s t h e y – I d o n o t k n o w p e r h a p s m a y b e Mr K i n g b r i n g s a d i ff e r e n t [ in d is ti n c t ] i n t o 10 t h is g a m e – I m e a n i n t o t h e tr a n s a c ti o n . S o I d i d n o t a c t u a l ly t h i n k it f u r th e r t h a n th a t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t a m I r i g h t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r e v id e n c e a s s u g g e s t in g t h a t y o u a ls o d id f i n d i t a li t tl e s t r a n g e b u t y o u d id n o t t a k e it f u r th e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. J u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s Mr M a h l a n g u i n y o u r o w n s t a t e m e n t y o u r e fe r e n c e M r M n g a d i a s t h e r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f I n l in e Tr a d i n g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t i s tr u e . W h a t p a g e a r e y o u at now? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is p a g e 4 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . It is not p a r t ic u l a r ly n e c e s s a r y t h a t w e g o t h e r e b u t i t w a s j u s t a fo ll o w o n fr o m t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. Page 22 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : As I r e a d y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h e r e w a s n o d o u b t i n y o u r m i n d t h a t t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f I n l i n e Tr a d i n g w a s M r M n g a d i , correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u ld t h e n l ik e t o g o t o t h e q u e s t io n o f t h e F S B l ic e n c e s u s p e n s i o n b e c a u s e I d o w a n t to p r o b e ju s t a li t tl e f u r t h e r t h e q u e s t io n o f w h e th e r th a t l e t t e r o f y o u r s d a te d t h e 1 3 M a y – w e ll I s h o u l d n o t e v e n s a y d a t e d 1 3 M a y b e c a u s e M r M a h l a n g u o n e o f t h e c h a l l e n g e s w e fa c e w h e n w e lo o k a t t h e B N P l e t te r s th a t 10 w e r e s e n t t o S A A d u r i n g t h i s p e r i o d is t h e y n e v e r b e a r a d a t e , i s th a t standard? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t i s q u it e a f e a t u r e o f a ll o f th e s e le t t e r s t h e y a c t u a l ly a r e n o t t h e m s e l v e s e v e r d a te d , a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a m q u i t e a w a r e M a ’ a m , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. S o t h e o n ly w a y y o u c a n tr a c k t h e n w h e n th e y w e r e s e n t o r n o t is I a s s u m e w it h t h e e m a il t h a t a t ta c h e d th e m , is t h a t correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t s o w h e n y o u s a i d i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h a t t h e l e t te r w h ic h a le r t s S A A t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e l ic e n c e h a s b e e n suspended by the FSB you say in your statement it was sent on the 13 M a y. H o w d i d y o u e s t a b l is h t h a t f a c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir a s I h a v e a c tu a lly in d i c a t e d y e s t e r d a y t h a t w h e n I a c t u a l ly e n g a g e d w i th t h e g u y s a t t h e Page 23 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 o ffic e w e – I g o t a f e e l – a c t u a l ly w h e n I a s k e d a l l th e g u y s t h a t I w a s d e a li n g w i th a s t o w h e t h e r w h e n t h i s l e t te r w a s s e n t I w a s a c t u a ll y t o ld t h e le t t e r w a s s e n t o n th e 1 3 M a y. H e n c e – h e n c e I a c tu a l ly w r o t e t h a t to S A A t o s a y g iv e n – I m e a n - b a s e d o n t h e – o n t h e l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t to y o u – y o u k n o w – o n 1 3 M a y t h i s is a f o l lo w u p d is c u s s i o n . S o h e n c e - h e n c e I s a i d y e s t e r d a y t h a t w h e n th a t l e tt e r w a s s e n t t o S A A w e w e r e in n o w a y k n o w i n g t h a t w e a r e g o in g b e – y o u k n o w – a t th is C o m m i s s i o n a n s w e r i n g t o i t . S o – a n d a t th e s a m e t i m e i t w a s n o t a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n 10 fr o m – m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n fr o m o u r s i d e , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I f o l l o w u p o n t h a t ? D i d y o u r e ly s i m p ly o n w h a t y o u r c o ll e a g u e s to l d y o u a b o u t t h e d a t e w h e n i t w a s s e n t o r d i d y o u a s k th e m t o b r i n g y o u th e p r o o f o f t h e e m a i l ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I - I h a v e a c t u a ll y r e l ie d o n t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e o n e s t h a t s e n t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d t h e n w h e n M s N h a n ts i w r o t e t o y o u o n 1 3 J u ly - w e l o o k e d a t t h a t l e t te r y e s t e r d a y. We can go to it again today and she said: “ P l e a s e p r o v i d e m e w it h p r o o f b e c a u s e y o u s a y i n 20 y o u r b e c a u s e y o u s a y i n y o u r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t y o u s e n t u s a le t t e r o n 1 3 M a y a n d w e c a n f i n d n o r e c o r d o f i t in S A A . ” D i d y o u t h e n tr y a n d lo o k f o r p r o o f ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I – I – t h e n I a c t u a l ly d id n o t b u t I r e s p o n d e d to h e r. Page 24 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d id n o t r e f e r to t h e p r o o f th a t s h e w a s r e q u ir i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b u t r e m e m b e r o n t h e e m a i l t h a t s h e s e n t i t w a s n o t o n ly p le a s e s e n d u s t h e e m a il th a t y o u s e n t t o u s b u t t h e r e w e r e o th e r u n d e r t a k i n g s a s f a r a s t h a t e m a il . S o I h a d t o a c t u a ll y d e a l w i t h u n d e r t a k i n g s a t h a n d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e p r e s s i n g m o r e th a n th e l e t te r t h a t w a s s e n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: But why did you not deal with the proof she was a s k in g b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly th a t w a s q u i te s o m e th i n g i m p o r t a n t ? Yo u s a i d y o u s e n t s o m e t h i n g . S h e s a y s w e d i d n o t r e c e iv e it . P l e a s e g i v e u s th e p r o o f . H o w c a n y o u o m i t t o d e a l w i t h t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. I th in k t h e n w h a t b a s ic a lly a s f a r a s t h e l e tt e r is – y o u k n o w – is c o n c e r n e d w h a t b a s ic a lly c a u g h t m y a t t e n t i o n th e n w a s t h e r e w e r e o th e r u n d e r t a k i n g s a s f a r a s th a t l e t t e r is c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e a c t u a l ly s o r t o f s o m e i n d i c a t io n th a t i f w e d o n o t a c t u a l l y c o m p ly – y o u k n o w – o u r c o n tr a c t m a y b e a c t u a ll y t e r m i n a t e d . 20 S o w e w e r e – w e w e r e b a s ic a l ly g iv e n a b o u t a c o u p l e o f d a y s t o r e c t i fy th e s i tu a ti o n . S o … CHAIRPERSON: But … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y. I a m i n t e r r u p ti n g y o u ; b u t y o u d id r e a d t h e l e t t e r a n d y o u d id s e e th a t s h e w a s a s k in g fo r p r o o f? Page 25 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s s ir. Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d i d y o u t h e n d e c i d e t o ig n o r e t h a t p a r t o f th e le t t e r a n d n o t p r o v i d e h e r w i th p r o o f ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o i t is n o t tr u e t h a t I a c t u a l ly ig n o r e d . S o w h a t – w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t d id y o u d o ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h is p a r t o f t h e l e t t e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 S o w h a t – w h a t b a s ic a lly I d id w a s t o a c t u a lly s e n d h e r a n o t h e r l e t t e r – a n e m a il – b a s ic a l ly s a y i n g t o her because the issue that she was addressing she was addressing the is s u e - I m e a n – th e b i g g e s t i s s u e b e s i d e s th e l e t te r t h a t s h e s a id w e m u s t a c t u a lly f o r w a r d to h e r w a s t h e is s u e o f w e – s h e – s h e a c t u a ll y h a d g iv e n u s a c o u p l e o f d a y s to r e c ti fy o u r p o s i t io n o t h e r w is e i f w e a c t u a ll y d o n o t d o t h a t – y o u k n o w – s h e w o u l d a c t u a l ly te r m i n a te t h e c o n tr a c t. S o w h a t I w a s – b a s ic a l ly w h a t I r e s p o n d e d t o h e r w a s t o s a y t o h e r w e h a v e a c t u a l ly w e n t a h e a d a n d – a n d r e c ti fy a n d tr y i n g to r e c t if y th e s i t u a t io n a s f a r a s t h e – th e te r ms o f s u s p e n s i o n a r e 20 c o n c e r n e d a n d – a n d t h is is w h a t w e h a v e d o n e t o d a t e a n d w e h a v e e v e n s e n t a le t t e r t o t h e C E O – y o u k n o w – t o a c t u a l ly a ll o w f o r – f o r C E O ’s references w i th regards to d e a li n g w i th some of th e suspensions. I t is a c t u a l ly t h e c r i ti c a l s u s p e n s i o n – y o u k n o w – in th e l e t t e r that was sent by FSB. S o I t h in k t h a t – a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e t h a t Page 26 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 o c c u p i e d m e . S o h e n c e I t h o u g h t – h e n c e I d i d n o t a c tu a lly r e s p o n d to e v e r y p a r t o f h e r e m a il b u t I t h o u g h t I s h o u ld a c t u a l ly b r i n g i t t o h e r a tt e n ti o n w h a t w a s v e r y c r i tic a l a t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e b e c a u s e i t w a s a t h r e a t to t h e c o n tr a c t n u m b e r o n e w h ic h a c t u a lly w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n . S o I ju s t – s o I h a d t o a c tu a lly r e s p o n d – y o u k n o w – w i t h – w i t h b a s i c i n f o r m a ti o n th a t - t h a t s a id w e d i d a c t u a ll y s e n d i n fo r m a ti o n t o t h e C E O . T h e s e a r e th e d e t a i ls t h a t w e s e n t a s f a r a s t h a t c o n tr a c t is c o n c e r n e d – a s fa r a s – I m e a n – t h e F S B is c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o b v i o u s ly o r m a y b e n o t o b v i o u s ly if y o u b e l ie v e d 10 t h a t y o u h a d s e n t th e l e tt e r to h e r a n d s h e s a id s h e d id n o t r e c e iv e i t o b v i o u s l y y o u w o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d . H o w c o m e s h e h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a le t t e r t h a t y o u h a d s e n t a n d y o u w o u l d w a n t t o p r o v id e h e r w i t h – w i th t h a t l e t te r. Is i t n o t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u g o b a c k to y o u r te a m a n d s a y w h e r e i s t h a t le t t e r l e t u s – l e t u s s e n d i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e n c e I - y e s C h a ir. S o h e n c e I s a i d w h e n th e th r e a t o f o u r c o n tr a c t w a s a c t u a ll y m e n t i o n e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t , l e t, le t … 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I d i d n o t – I d i d n o t d o th a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u d id n o t d o t h a t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Why not? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e n c e I s a i d w h e n th e th r e a t o f Page 27 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 o u r c o n tr a c t w a s a c t u a l ly q u e s t io n e d w h a t I w a s a c t u a ll y a le r t i n g h e r e a s t o s a y b a s e d o n t h is b e c a u s e in e s s e n c e w h e th e r I d i d s e n d h e r t h a t in f o r m a ti o n th a t s h e r e q u e s te d w a s e i t h e r h e r e n o r th e r e a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e b e c a u s e h e r m in d w a s a lr e a d y m a d e t o s a y r e c ti fy y o u r p o s i ti o n . S o I h a d t o a c t u a ll y s a y h o w d o w e t h e n – h o w d o I r e s p o n d t o t h a t i m m i n e n t t h r e a t a s fa r a s o u r c o n tr a c t is c o n c e r n e d a n d th e n h e n c e I s e n t t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u l a te r o n t a k e t h e tr o u b le to r e s p o n d t o h e r a n d s a y I k n o w y o u a s k e d f o r p r o o f I w a s a tt e n d i n g t o o t h e r m a t t e r s . I 10 h a v e n o w f o u n d th e p r o o f . H e r e is t h e p r o o f. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n – n o I d id n o t s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Why not? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u t h o u g h t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e y o u h a d a d d r e s s e d th e o t h e r i s s u e s t h a t y o u s a y y o u h a d a d d r e s s e d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S i r I th i n k a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e o b v i o u s l y o n e w a s a c t u a ll y – y o u k n o w – i n v o lv e d in t o o m a n y t h i n g s a t t h a t p a r tic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e a n d th e n w h a t – w h a t w a s c r it ic a l a s f a r a s m y p o s i ti o n w a s c o n c e r n e d th e n w a s t o a c t u a lly s a v e t h e c o n tr a c t. S o 20 – s o a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e I a c t u a ll y b e c a u s e th e o n ly t h i n g t h a t s h e s a y s t o m e th e n w a s t o – I m e a n – p o s t w h e n I a c t u a ll y s e n t – s e n t a n e m a il b e c a u s e I a c tu a lly r e s p o n d e d to t h a t p a r ti c u l a r e m a il o f h e r s b u t I d i d n o t a c t u a ll y d o a f o l lo w u p a s f a r a s l o o k i n g f o r t h a t p a r t ic u l a r le t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e ll i f t h e le t t e r t h a t y o u s a i d y o u h a d s e n t t o h e r w h ic h s h e s a i d s h e h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a n d w a s a s k i n g fo r p r o o f d id e x is t Page 28 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n d w a s t h e r e w o u ld y o u a g r e e t h a t i t w a s th e e a s ie s t t h i n g t o d o to s e n d h e r – to s e n d t h e p r o o f to h e r b e c a u s e a ll y o u w o u l d n e e d i s g e t s o m e b o d y t o s h o w it t o y o u a n d t h e n y o u s a y e m a i l i t th a t is a l l . E m a i l i t w i th o n e li n e – h e r e is p r o o f a n d th e n th e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t y o u a t te n d e d to m ig h t h a v e n e e d e d m o r e t i m e a n d m o r e w o r k b u t th a t o n e m u s t h a v e b e e n t h e e a s i e s t t o d o a n d th a t i s t h e o n e y o u d id n o t d o . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s ir. I t h in k i t w a s a q u e s t io n o f p r io r i ti e s h e r e , y e s – i t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Mahlangu just to f o ll o w up on your p r i o r i ti e s . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p r i o r i ty w a s t o s a v e t h e c o n tr a c t . I s t h a t correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u n o t t h i n k th a t fi n d i n g t h a t l e t te r a n d sending it to her and the proof that it had been sent on 13 May would h a v e a s s is t e d i n s a v i n g t h e c o n tr a c t ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is n o t tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l t h a t l e t te r e x p l a i n s p r e c is e ly t h e s t e p s y o u h a v e ta k e n t o in v o lv e a n o t h e r a u t h o r i s e d s e r v i c e – fi n a n c i a l s e r v i c e s p r o v i d e r w h o is g o in g t o w o r k w it h y o u u n til y o u h a v e f u l f il le d a ll th e s u s p e n s i o n c o n d i ti o n s i n t h e l e t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n t h a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e F S B . S o t h a t le t t e r s h o w s S A A i f y o u h a d m a n a g e d t o fi n d t h e Page 29 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 proof of it being sent. A t h a t y o u a r e a c ti n g i n c o m p l i a n c e w it h w h a t th e F S B r e q u ir e s o f y o u ; b t h a t y o u fo u n d a p a r t n e r t o w o r k w i t h d u r in g th e p e r i o d t h a t y o u a r e s e e k i n g to h a v e th e s u s p e n s i o n l if t e d a n d c , th a t y o u c a n t h e r e f o r e c o n t in u e w i th t h e c o n tr a c t . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o I d o n o t C h a ir. I think the r e s p o n s e w a s b a s e d o n b e c a u s e I - I t h in k y o u a r e m a k i n g a c o u p l e o f a s s u m p t io n s h e r e . As s u m p t i o n s is d i d y o u a c tu a lly n o t i fy u s a b o u t w h a t y o u g o i n g – y o u k n o w – y o u r c h a ll e n g e s a t F S B a n d t h e n t h a t is y e s 10 a n d t h e n w h e n I a c tu a l ly r e s p o n d e d i n t h e – o n t h e – I c a n n o t remember now the date – when I – when I responded … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u c a n h a v e a l o o k i f y o u w a n t t o h a v e a l o o k . It d e p e n d s i f y o u t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: When I responded on th a t p a r t ic u l a r l e t te r I w a s b a s ic a l ly h i g h li g h ti n g th e is s u e s t h a t w e r e d is c u s s e d i n t h a t le t t e r o f t h e 1 3 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a y th a t le t t e r a r e y o u t a l k i n g t o t h e le t t e r 20 that … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: That … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N h a n ts i s a i d s h e d i d n o t r e c e i v e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s a n d i n e s s e n c e I – I d o n o t Page 30 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h i n k t o b e h o n e s t – to b e h o n e s t a n d – a n d I t h i n k i n t h i s C o m m is s i o n I t h i n k t h e y n e e d t o k n o w th a t w h e n – w h e n S A A a c t u a lly c a m e t o u s a b o u t o u r l ic e n c e t h e y w h ic h is – w e f i n d i t v e r y s tr a n g e – t h e y c a m e to u s e v e n th o u g h w e h a v e a c tu a l ly s a i d to t h e m t h e s e a r e t h e s t e p s w e a r e g o i n g t o ta k e . T h i s is w h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o d o a s f a r a s t h e lic e n c e i s c o n c e r n e d b u t th e y w e r e a c t u a l ly h e ll- b e n t … CHAIRPERSON: B u t I a m – I a m s o r r y Mr M a h la n g u . I t h in k y o u m a y b e d r i f ti n g a w a y fr o m th e q u e s ti o n n o t n e c e s s a r il y d e l ib e r a te ly. 10 a m n o t s a y in g y o u a r e d o i n g s o d e li b e r a te ly. I As I understand the q u e s t io n - t h e q u e s t io n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d to d e a l w i t h i s o n e t h a t is a s k in g y o u w h y y o u t h in k it w o u ld n o t h e l p y o u i n s a v i n g t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h S A A o r i n b e in g a l lo w e d b y S A A t o c o n ti n u e a n d d o th e w o r k fo r S A A t o k n o w t h a t y o u h a d f o u n d s o m e b o d y w h o h a d t h e l ic e n c e w h o w o u ld w o r k w i t h y o u . Yo u s a i d y o u d i d n o t th i n k t h a t t h a t w o u l d h e l p s a v e th e c o n tr a c t … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d w h a t i s y o u r m o t i v a ti o n f o r s a y i n g f o r S A A t o k n o w t h a t w o u l d n o t h e l p i n s a v in g th e c o n tr a c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a n k s C h a ir. I – I w a s a c t u a l ly g o i n g – I w a s a c t u a l ly ta k i n g y o u o n a j o u r n e y t o th a t p a r t ic u l a r conclusion, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Can I suggest one thing? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 31 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : It is s h o r te r t o b e s h o r te r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I u n d e r s to o d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s ti o n . L e t m e c u t s h o r t . I t h i n k w h e n – w h e n w e s t a r t e d e n g a g in g w i t h S A A a s f a r a s o u r F S B l ic e n c e is c o n c e r n e d S A A a lr e a d y to o k t h e p o s i t io n r e g a r d l e s s o f th e – t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t a c t u a l ly fr o m F S B t o t h e m t o o k a p o s it i o n t h a t t h e y a e o n l y g o i n g t o b e g iv i n g u s a c o u p l e o f d a y s t o r e c t i fy o u r p o s i ti o n o t h e r w is e th e y w ill a c t u a l ly c a n c e l th e c o n t r a c t . 10 E v e n d e s p i t e t h e fa c t th a t w e a c t u a ll y h a v e f o u n d a p a r tn e r t o a s s is t u s a s fa r a s t h i s e x e r c is e i s c o n c e r n e d . T h e r e w a s n o m e e t in g o f minds to say … CHAIRPERSON: B u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n t h e y n e v e r g o t a n y in f o r m a ti o n t o t h a t e ff e c t o r t h e y h a d n o t g o t th a t in f o r m a t io n b e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t g e t t h a t le t t e r o r a m I m is t a k e n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir th e y d id . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id r e c e iv e … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e le t t e r ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o t o n ly th e l e t t e r b u t a ls o th e a tt a c h m e n ts – t h e F S B a t ta c h m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e t te r t h a t w a s – t h e le t t e r th a t t h e y s a i d th e y d id n o t r e c e i v e y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e y d id r e c e i v e o r a r e w e t a lk i n g a t c r o s s purposes? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. Page 32 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e le t t e r – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e l e t te r th a t t h e y s a id t h e y d id n o t r e c e iv e w a s t h e le t t e r in w h i c h y o u a d v is e d th e m t h a t y o u h a d fo u n d a p a r t n e r w h o h a d t h e F S B lic e n c e w i t h w h o m y o u c o u ld w o r k . T h a t i s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . I s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s w e l l th a t th a t is p a r t o f w h a t t h a t l e t t e r s a i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Or is supposed to have said? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y. The letter that I am t a lk in g a b o u t i t is t h e i n i t ia l l e t t e r a f t e r t h e - th e s u s p e n s i o n . S o th a t 10 le t t e r i n e s s e n c e w h a t b a s ic a lly w a s d o in g w a s t o i n f o r m t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. L e t u s … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: SAA. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. L e t u s – t h e r e is a l e t te r t h a t w e k n o w … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S A A s a i d t h e y d i d n o t r e c e i v e . Is i t n o t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is i t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t p a r t o f th e le t t e r th a t they say they did not receive which you said you had sent to them was a d v is i n g t h e m t h a t y o u h a d f o u n d a p a r t n e r w h o h a d a n F S B l i c e n c e 20 w i t h w h o m y o u w e r e g o in g to w o r k . Is – is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f p a r t o f w h a t w a s in t h a t le t t e r t h a t t h e y s a i d th e y d i d n o t r e c e i v e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o it w a s n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : It … Page 33 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u i f I m a y ju s t b e o f a s s is t a n c e . L e t u s g o t o t h e l e t t e r s o t h a t w e c a n a l l h a v e i t in fr o n t o f u s th e o n e t h a t y o u a ll e g e w a s s e n t to S A A o n 1 3 M a y. Yo u w il l f in d i t in y o u r s t a te m e n t b u n d le th a t is E X H I B I T D D 4 a n d i t i s a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 3 u n d e r Ta b 2 1 a n d j u s t a s y o u g o i n th e r e a n d a f o l lo w u p t o w h a t t h e C h a i r h a s p u t to you. A s I r e a d t h a t l e tt e r t h a t is p r e c i s e ly w h a t y o u w e r e s e e k i n g t o c o m m u n ic a te o n th a t d a y. S o y o u w i ll f i n d i t u n d e r Ta b 2 1 a t p a g e 1 4 - 3 a n d M r M a h l a n g u j u s t t o o r ie n t a t e y o u . Th is is t h e l e t te r th a t y o u i n 10 y o u r s ta t e m e n t s a y w a s s e n t t o S A A o n 1 3 M a y 2 0 1 6 . T h i s is th e l e tt e r that Ms Nhantsi writes to you about on 13 July 2016 and says: “ Yo u h a v e to ld u s t h a t a l e t t e r w a s s e n t b u t w e d i d n o t r e c e i v e it . P le a s e te ll u s p r e c is e l y w h o it w a s s e n t t o a n d g iv e u s p r o o f t h a t i t w a s s e n t . ” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It … C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k t h a t l a s t p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e I h o p e t h e a b o v e is in o r d e r s e e m t o b e t h e p a r a g r a p h w h e r e y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u h a d f o u n d s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o h a s – w h o h a s a l ic e n c e . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e – d o y o u – d o y o u – is i t – i s i t f a ir to r e a d th a t p a r a g r a p h a s s u g g e s ti n g th a t y o u w e r e c o n v e y i n g t o S A A t h a t y o u i n te n d e d t o t r y to w o r k w i t h c a p i t a l p a r t n e r o r t o ta lk t o t h e m w i t h a Page 34 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 v ie w t o s e e in g w h e t h e r y o u c o u l d w o r k w i t h t h e m ? I s i t f a ir t o r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h in t h a t w a y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. I t h in k I a g r e e w i th you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u th i n k i t i s f a i r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: If – i f t h a t is fa ir to r e a d i t th a t w a y w o u l d y o u s t il l s a y th a t i t w a s n o t i m p o r t a n t i n y o u r a t te m p ts to s a v e th e c o n tr a c t fo r S A A t o k n o w th a t th e s e w e r e t h e a t te m p t s y o u w e r e m a k i n g t o w o r k w i th 10 s o m e b o d y w h o h a d a li c e n c e t o t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u w a n t e d t o t a k e s t e p s to s a v e th e c o n tr a c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s a y t h a t i t w a s n o t i m p o r t a n t fo r S A A t o k n o w t h a t t h is is o n e o f th e a tt e m p ts y o u w e r e t a k in g in o r d e r to tr y a n d m a k e s u r e th a t y o u c a n c o n t in u e w i th t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h o u t F S B p r o b l e m s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s ir. I a g r e e w i th y o u . I t h i n k w h a t w e n e e d t o d o is l e t l o o k a t t h e l o g i c a l s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts . W e g e t a l e tt e r o f s u s p e n s i o n … CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. I w i ll – I w il l l e t y o u d o th a t if i t is r e a lly necessary but are you saying you agree that it would - it would have b e e n i m p o r t a n t fo r S A A t o k n o w t h a t th is w a s o n e o f t h e a t te m p t s y o u w e r e m a k i n g ? Yo u a g r e e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I agree. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . I d o n o t – fo r m e th a t is – t h a t i s enough for now but I do not know if you want to … Page 35 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u a li fy it . F o r m e b u t th a t is – t h a t is e n o u g h f o r m e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u f e e l a n u r g e t o e x p l a in a n y th i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: What I was about to – maybe – m a y b e j u s t s p e n d tw o s e c o n d s o n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h a t I w a s a b o u t t o s a y is w h e n w e a c t u a ll y r e c e iv e d a le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W e in f o r m e d S A A t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To s a y th e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n r e q u ir e s u s t o d o o n e , t w o , t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W e a r e in t h e p r o c e s s o f d o i n g that. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: And we have not a c t u a l ly m e n ti o n e d ( in d i s ti n c t) – y o u k n o w o u r – y o u k n o w – y o u k n o w t o s a y t h is i s w h a t w e a r e g o in g t o d o a n d t h e n w a s s e n t s o m e t i m e i n J u ly t o s a y w e h a v e a c tu a l ly – t h is is w h a t t h e t e r ms o f s u s p e n s i o n s w e r e a n d t h is is w h a t w e h a v e d o n e to d a t e y e s t o a c t u a ll y r e c ti fy t h a t p o s i t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I – I tr u l y d o n o t w a n t t o b e l a b o u r Page 36 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h is p o i n t b u t w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a id i s in c o n s is t e n t w i t h y o u r o w n s t a te m e n t . T h e l e t te r a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 3 t h a t y o u a r e lo o k in g a t y o u s a y w a s s e n t t h e d a y a ft e r y o u g o t th e l e t te r fr o m th e F S B i n fo r m i n g y o u t h a t t h e lic e n c e w a s s u s p e n d e d . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir n o . T h a t is in c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e le t t e r t h a t y o u a r e lo o k in g a t in f r o n t o f y o u at page 1-4-3? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 Ye s . I t is n o t th e le t t e r t h a t I w a s s e n t o n M a y – in M a y. . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. L e t u s g o t o w h e r e y o u s a y i n th e s t a te m e n t i t w a s s e n t o n 1 3 M a y C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a ls o m a d e a n o t e o n t h e l e t te r y e s t e r d a y w h ic h reads: “ M r M a h l a n g u s a y s t h a t t h is l e t te r w a s s e n t o n 13 May 2016.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Should I read it to you? Let us go to p a g e 2 7 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . A t p a g e 2 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h 6 .5 on that page. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t t h e r i g h t f il e i n f r o n t o f y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Is i t my f il e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e w i t h y o u r s ta t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r fi le in d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r fi l e j a . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s p a r a g r a p h – s o r r y ? Page 37 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Page 27 paragraph 6.5. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c a n j u s t r e a d i t o u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e record. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s s e e if h e h a s f o u n d i t . H e h a s n o t f o u n d i t y e t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is page 37? CHAIRPERSON: 27. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 7 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 6 . 5 . H a v e y o u f o u n d i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) . CHAIRPERSON: H a v e y o u fo u n d – s h e is s t il l g o i n g to a s k y o u t h e q u e s t io n b u t h a v e y o u fo u n d p a r a g r a p h 6 . 5 a t p a g e 2 7 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r a n d a p o l o g ie s I th o u g h t t h a t y o u h a d f o u n d t h e p la c e Mr M a h la n g u . A t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 5 t h e r e a s I r e a d your statement you state: “ W h e n t h e F S B l ic e n c e ( o r n o ti c e t o s u s p e n d w a s g iv e n ) w a s s u s p e n d e d s o m e t i m e i n A p r il 2 0 1 6 I 20 in f o r m e d S A A o f t h e s u s p e n s i o n p e r l e t t e r d a t e d 1 3 M a y 2 0 1 6 a t ta c h e d h e r e to a s A n n e x u r e P D M 2 1 . ” T h a t is th e l e t te r w e w e r e j u s t l o o k in g a t – a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 3 . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Is t h is – o k a y. Ye s I a m l o o k i n g at it. Page 38 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o y o u a c c e p t … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: PDM21. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s y o u h a v e s ta t e d i n th e s t a te m e n t … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I think she is - you want to go back to the le t t e r. I t is a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 3 . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . N o I a m a c t u a l ly l o o k i n g a t t h e le t t e r n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is your statement correct when you say you sent that to SAA on 13 May? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s r i g h t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Mr Mahlangu to move on then on t h e s u c c e s s f e e a s p e c t th a t w e c o n c lu d e d y o u r e v i d e n c e o n y e s t e r d a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k y o u m ig h t in t h e p r o c e s s h a v e f o r g o t t e n s o m e lo o s e e n d … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u m a y b e y o u d i d n o t f o r g e t . I th i n k n o w t h a t w e h a v e g o n e t o t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 1 4 3 a n d w e h a v e g o n e to – a n d y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d y o u h a v e a c c e p t e d t h a t i n t h a t l e t t e r y o u d i d i n d i c a t e t o S A A t h a t y o u w e r e m a k in g e ff o r ts t o g e t a p a r tn e r w h o h a s – w h o h a d a n F S B lic e n c e a n d y o u h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n Page 39 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 i m p o r t a n t fo r S A A t o k n o w t h a t t h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g i n y o u r a tt e m p ts t o s a v e t h e c o n tr a c t . T h e q u e s t io n t h a t a r i s e s is s ti ll w h y th e n d id y o u n o t t a k e t h e tr o u b le t o lo o k f o r t h e l e tt e r o r th e p r o o f t h a t S A A w a s lo o k i n g f o r a n d s e n d i t t o t h e m b e c a u s e w e – w e a ll a c c e p t t h a t t h a t c o u ld h a v e c o n tr i b u t e d i n s a v i n g th e c o n t r a c t w h ic h i s w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o d o . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. W e h a v e a c t u a l ly d o n e t h a t. N o w I t h i n k I w a s j u s t c o n fu s i n g m y – y o u k n o w – I h a v e g o t t o o m a n y – t o o m u c h i n fo r m a ti o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o t h a t is fi n e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Make sure you have got what you want to look at. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . W e h a v e a c t u a ll y d o n e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e is a l e t t e r t h a t w e s e n t t o s a y f u r th e r t o y o u r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e – I t h in k i t is in f o r m a t io n t h a t w e s h a r e y e s t e r d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r y o u w i ll fi n d i t – I to o k th e s te p t o p la c e it i n Mr M a h la n g u ’s f il e a n d it h a s b e e n p a g in a t e d r ig h t a t t h e e n d a t p a g e - fr o m p a g e 1 - 4 - 6 . S o y o u w i ll fi n d i t i n E X H I B I T D D 4 a t p a g e 1 4-6. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e t h e n … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a h la n g u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . T h e l e t te r r e a d s as f o ll o w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d w e d i d t h a t. I w a s s ti ll g o in g t o Page 40 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s a y ju s t c o m p l e te t h e s e n te n c e . Yo u s a i d y o u d id w h a t … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: So that I can understand. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . W h a t I a m s a y in g i s w h a t y o u j u s t a s k e d – t h e q u e s t io n th a t y o u h a v e a s k e d a s t o h a v e y o u a c t u a ll y b e c a u s e I t h i n k th e fir s t q u e s ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y – w h y d i d y o u n o t t a k e th e tr o u b le … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O f s e n d in g t h e p r o o f b e c a u s e w e b o th a c c e p t t h a t t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p o r ta n t f o r S A A t o k n o w in y o u r a t t e m p ts to s a v e th e c o n t r a c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . T h a t is t r u e C h a ir. S o i n – in r e s p o n s e o f m y – i n r e s p o n s e t o M s N h a n ts i ’s e m a i l h e n c e I s a id th a t email did not only say to us just send whatever that you sent on 13 May b u t i t h a d o t h e r c r i tic a l i s s u e s th a t I h a d t o a c t u a ll y d e a l w i th a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e . S o I a c t u a ll y a t te m p t e d t o a d d r e s s t h a t i n t h i s p a r ti c u la r e m a i l t h a t I – le t t e r t h a t I s e n t t o h e r. S o it s a y s – I w i ll r e a d i t – I w i ll r e a d it t o y o u . CHAIRPERSON: No, no do not read it to me … 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g is a p o in t y o u m a d e e a r l i e r. Th e r e w e r e c e r t a in t h in g s th a t t h e le t t e r fr o m M s N h a n t s i r a is e d - c e r t a i n m a t t e r s th a t y o u h a d r a is e d w h ic h y o u w a n t e d – w h ic h y o u r e g a r d e d a s i m p o r ta n t … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 41 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : To a d d r e s s in o r d e r t o s a v e t h e c o n tr a c t . N o w t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d b u t t h i s w a s a ls o a n i m p o r t a n t s te p t h a t S A A n e e d e d t o k n o w a n d s o m y q u e s t io n w a s s i m p ly w h y d id y o u n o t t a k e t h i s tr o u b le o f j u s t l o o k i n g fo r t h e l e tt e r a n d s e n d - s e n d i n g i t b e c a u s e i t w o u l d a d d t o S A A s e e i n g t h a t y o u c o u l d a c t u a l ly c o n t in u e w it h th e c o n tr a c t i f y o u r engagement with this partner was successful. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. H e n c e I d is a g r e e t h a t a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e w h e n I e n g a g e d w i t h S A A t h e y w e r e n o t – n o t i n t h e p o s it i o n to a c tu a lly a s s is t o r t o a c t u a l ly e v e n li s te n t o – 10 t o w h a te v e r t h a t s e n t b e c a u s e i n th e l e t t e r t h a t I s e n t i t s a y s th is is th e le t t e r o f – o f t h e 1 3 t h . T h is is w h a t i t m e a n t b u t a s f a r a s t h e a s p e c ts o r t h e c o n t e n t o f t h a t l e tt e r is c o n c e r n e d t h e y d i d n o t a c tu a lly w a n t t o h e a r a n y th i n g . W h a t t h e y s a i d p o s t t h a t i s w e d i d n o t r e c e i v e t h e le t t e r h o w e v e r r e c t if y y o u r p o s i ti o n a s fa r a s t h e F S – t h e F S P l ic e n c e i s c o n c e r n e d a n d – a n d w e a r e g iv i n g y o u th i s – a c e r t a in n u m b e r o f d a y s a n d i f y o u d o n o t w e w i ll c a n c e l t h e c o n tr a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is th e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t i f y o u h a d a p a r t n e r w h o h a d a n F S B l i c e n c e y o u c o u l d a c t u a l l y d o th e j o b w i t h o u t e v e n 20 r e c t if y i n g y o u r s i tu a ti o n ? A t le a s t th a t i s – th a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t i s tr u e C h a ir. H e n c e I s a i d it is a b i t s tr a n g e – a t th e b e g i n n in g I t h in k w h e n I s a i d i t w a s a b i t s tr a n g e a n d I k n o w I w a n t e d t o a c tu a l ly e l a b o r a t e o n i t t o s a y i t w a s a b i t s tr a n g e b e c a u s e w e a c t u a l ly p r o v i d e d a ll t h e in f o r m a t io n i n c lu d i n g o u r p a r t n e r s to t h e m b u t t h e r e – t h e r e w a s n o – a n y i n d ic a ti o n o n t h e ir Page 42 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p a r t t o s a y o k a y f i n e w e h a v e r e c e iv e d th is i n f o r m a ti o n . A s f a r a s t h e li c e n c e i s c o n c e r n e d w e w e r e a c t u a l ly c o m p l ia n t – y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e w e a r e a c t u a l ly d e a li n g w i t h s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f t h e c o m p li a n c e a n d I a ls o s e n t t h e m a d is c u s s i o n – a l o n g d is c u s s i o n t h a t w e h a d w i t h F S B t o s a y th is is a d is c u s s io n t h a t w e h a d w it h F S B b u t t h e y h a v e j u s t ta k e n a p o s i t io n to s a y i f y o u d o n o t w a n t t o r e c ti fy y o u r s i tu a ti o n w e d o n o t c a r e w h a t y o u s a y t o u s o r w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g t o u s b u t i f y o u d o n o t r e c t i fy y o u r s i t u a t i o n w e w i ll c a n c e l th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k w e h a v e s p e n t a s m u c h ti m e … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e . CHAIRPERSON: As we – we can. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Pr o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d i d h a v e s o m e i n ti m a ti o n s fr o m M r M a h l a n g u ’s le g a l t e a m a r o u n d t h i s is s u e I’ ll t a k e i t u p w i t h t h e m o v e r t h e b r e a k i f i t ’s r e le v a n t w e ’ ll a d d r e s s i t a g a i n , b u t I w o u ld l ik e to m a k e a b i t m o r e p r o g r e s s b e f o r e w e b r e a k i f p o s s ib l e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Just to conclude on the success fee Mr Mahlangu, I understood your evidence yesterday to be that you had p r o p o s e d a s u c c e s s fe e o f 1 . 2 5 % i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . A n d w e r e y o u in v o lv e d i n n e g o t ia t io n s t o in c r e a s e th a t s u c c e s s f e e a t a l l w i th S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. Page 43 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t w h a t t h e B o a r d w a s a s k e d to approve was a success fee of not 1.25% but of 1.5%? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o I h a v e n ’ t r e c e iv e d a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o th a t e ff e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t d i ff e r e n c e o f . 2 5 % i s n o t in s i g n i fic a n t , I d i d a s h o r t c a lc u l a t io n a n d i t a m o u n ts o n fu n d i n g tr a n s a c ti o n o f 1 5 b i ll io n t o 3 7 . 5 m i ll io n , I’ m n o t s u r e h o w q u ic k l y y o u c a n d o t h e m e n t a l a r i th m e t ic b u t a r e y o u s a t is f ie d t h a t t h e m o v e fr o m 1 . 2 5 % … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll Ms Hofmeyr he has an honours in m a t h s … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e c a n p r o b a b l y d o i t, I h a v e t o t a k e o u t m y p h o n e a n d d o t h e c a lc u la t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u h a p p y th a t . 2 5 % o f 1 5 b i ll io n is 3 7 . 5 m il li o n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w i ll a g r e e w i t h y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e m o v e fr o m y o u r p r o p o s e d 1 .2 5 % t o 1 . 5 % h a d th is tr a n s a c ti o n e v e r e v e n t u a t e d w o u ld h a v e r e s u lt e d i n a f u r th e r 20 3 7 . 5 m il li o n t o B n P C a p i t a l , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I d o n ’t a c c e p t i t , i n t h e – fr o m m y p o s i t io n , I th i n k y o u a r e d is c u s s i n g fr o m a p o s i ti o n o f in f o r m a t io n , fr o m w h e r e I ’ m s i t ti n g a s – w e a c tu a l ly s e n t a p r o p o s a l t o M s N h a n ts i t h a t w a s s o m e t i m e , i f I’ m n o t m i s t a k e n , i t ’s a c t u a ll y in t h e fi le , I t h in k o n t h e 1 2 t h o f M a y, d is c u s s i n g o u r fe e s w h ic h is 1 . 2 5 % a n d e v e n w i th Page 44 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e g a r d s t o 1 . 5 % w e h a v e n ’ t r e c e i v e d a n y c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i th r e g a r d s t o w h e t h e r t h a t w a s a c c e p t e d o r t h e y ’ r e n e g o ti a ti n g . S o w e h a v e n ’t , s o w h e r e I ’ m s i tt i n g I c a n n o t a c t u a l ly v o u c h a n d a g r e e w i th y o u o n t h e n u m b e r s a n d y o u k n o w, o f w h ic h I d i d n ’ t a g r e e o n , t h e r e ’s n o th i n g t h a t was communicated to us. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u w e m a y b e a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s , I a b s o l u t e ly u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e , y o u w e r e n ’ t a w a r e t h a t t h e S A A B o a r d a p p r o v e d a 1 .5 % s u c c e s s f e e o n th is tr a n s a c ti o n , i s t h a t correct? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I w a s n ’t a w a r e , t h a t ’s correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m p u t ti n g t o y o u is t h a t if th o s e w e r e t h e fa c t s , I u n d e r s ta n d y o u d id n o t k n o w t h e m a t t h e t i m e , b u t i f i t w a s the case that the SAA Board approved 1.5% as a success fee, they w o u ld h a v e b e e n a p p r o v i n g t o p a y y o u 3 7 . 5 % m i l li o n m o r e t h a n y o u w e r e a s k i n g f o r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h a t ’s i n c o r r e c t b e c a u s e obviously if we, for some reason – for some strange reason if we m a n a g e d t o g e t t h a t 1 5 b il li o n w h i c h is a n a s s u m p t io n w e ’r e m a k in g 20 h e r e , r e m e m b e r o u r p r o p o s a l n o w i t ’s 1 . 2 5 % , w e c o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y s e n d a n i n v o ic e o f 1 . 2 5 % n o t 1 .5 % . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h i n k y o u d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s ti o n , l e t m e tr y, j u s t r e l a x a n d li s te n c a r e f u lly a n d i f y o u d o n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d a s k – t e ll m e th a t y o u d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d . M s H o f m e y r is s a y in g t o y o u , s h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e a t t h e ti m e th a t t h e S A A B o a r d Page 45 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h a d a p p r o v e d t h a t y o u b e p a i d a s u c c e s s f e e o f 1 .5 % , y o u a g r e e th a t , t h a t ’s y o u r e v i d e n c e , y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f th a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n s h e is s a y i n g , s h e h a s m a d e a c a lc u l a ti o n o f w h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d i n r a n d s if i n d e e d y o u w e r e p a i d 1 .5 % o f t h e 1 5 b il li o n r a n d , o k a y, y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t p a r t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e s a y s s h e w a n ts t o t e ll y o u t h e f ig u r e t h a t s h e h a s a r r iv e d a t a n d s h e s a y s i t ’s – th a t w o u l d m e a n y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n 10 p a i d , a n d s h e w i ll t e l l y o u t h e fi g u r e m o r e t h a n t h e a m o u n t y o u h a d s a id y o u w o u ld c h a r g e , y o u u n d e r s ta n d . I n o th e r w o r d s s h e s a y s , S A A w o u ld h a v e e n d e d u p p a y i n g y o u m o r e t h a n – fa r m o r e t h a n y o u s a i d y o u w o u l d c h a r g e f o r t h e j o b a n d s h e ju s t w a n t s y o u t o c o m m e n t w h e t h e r y o u t h in k m o r e o r l e s s th a t a m o u n t th a t s h e i s ta lk in g a b o u t , i s c o r r e c t , i n te r ms o f c a lc u la t io n s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a i r I th in k th e a s s u m p t io n i t ’s fl a w e d i n a s e n s e t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h a s s u m p ti o n i f fl a w e d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 Ye s th e a s s u m p t io n t h a t S A A w o u ld a c t u a l ly – w o u ld a c t u a l ly p a y u s 1 .5 % w h e n w e a c tu a lly h a v e g iv e n t h e m a p r o p o s a l o f 1 . 2 5 % s o th e q u e s ti o n n o w is , r e g a r d le s s o f o u r … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s a s s u m e i t is a n a s s u m p ti o n a n d l e t ’s a s s u m e t h e a s s u m p t io n i s r i g h t d e s p i t e y o u t h in k i n g i t ’s fl a w e d s h e ’s i n t e r e s te d i n y o u in d i c a t in g w h e t h e r y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e m e a n t t h a t y o u Page 46 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a i d a n a m o u n t t h a t w a s f a r m o r e t h a n w h a t y o u h a d a s k e d fo r o r w h a t y o u s a i d y o u w o u l d c h a r g e f o r t h e j o b a n d m a y b e M s H o f m e y r c a n j u s t r e p e a t t h e f ig u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d t h e d i ff e r e n c e w h ic h i s t h e d e f e r e n c e b e t w e e n 1 . 2 4 % a n d 1 . 5 % is 3 7 . 5 m il li o n r a n d . CHAIRPERSON: So in other words she says if the – she says you w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a id 3 7 . 5 mi ll i o n r a n d m o r e th a n w h a t y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d t o c h a r g e b u t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h i s a t th e ti m e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 Ye s C h a ir, a c t u a l ly I u n d e r s t a n d c o m p l e te ly w h a t M s H o f m e y r i s s a y i n g to m e y e s a n d w h a t I’ m p u t ti n g th r o u g h is th e r e a r e i n s ti t u ti o n s – I’ ll g i v e y o u a n e x a m p le , t h e r e a r e in s t i tu t io n s t h a t h a v e g o t a b u d g e t o n a p a r tic u la r p r o je c t th e y s e t a b u d g e t a n d b i d d e r s c o m e a n d b i d f o r t h a t p a r ti c u la r p r o j e c t a n d i f t h e y b i d fo r a p a r ti c u la r p r o j e c t , t h e i n s ti t u ti o n a lr e a d y h a s a g o t a b u d g e t o n i t a n d o n e c o u ld c o m e e v e n b e lo w t h a t b u d g e t , th a t d o e s n ’ t m e a n th a t w h o e v e r t h a t w o n is a c t u a ll y g o i n g t o b e p a i d a h i g h e r amount. S o t h e y w i ll p a y y o u w h a t y o u r p r o p o s a l i s a t a p a r ti c u l a r p o i n t in t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I d o n ’ t th in k – I th i n k w e c a n – I th in k t h e is s u e 20 can be left there. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n l e a v e i t t h e r e C h a ir, t h e o n ly p o i n t, ju s t to c o n c l u d e t h a t I’ d li k e to m a k e t o M r M a h la n g u i s , y o u d o n ’t h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is i o n to a p p r o v e a 1 . 5 % s u c c e s s f e e t o you, do you? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o o b v io u s ly n o t . Page 47 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e i t ’s r e c o r d e d in t h e m o t iv a t i o n t h a t w e n t t o t h e B o a r d , fo r t h a t 1 . 5 % s u c c e s s fe e , t h a t t h e tw o p a r ti e s , t h a t ’s a r e fe r e n c e t o S A A a n d B n P s e t tl e d f o r a s u c c e s s f e e o f 1 . 5 % p e r c e n t s h o u l d B n P C a p it a l b e ta s k e d to u r g e n tl y s o u r c e f u n d s , c a n I t a k e i t y o u w e r e n o t in v o lv e d i n t h o s e n e g o t ia t io n s w h ic h s e tt l e d a t a s u c c e s s fe e o f 1 .5 % . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o I’ m n o t s u r e w h ic h – a r e y o u – y e s C h a ir, I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t io n w a s th e d i s c u s s io n b e t w e e n B n P r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s a n d S A A o r t h e B o a r d o r S A A B o a r d , 10 t h a t ’s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e le t ’s p u t i t t h is w a y, w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d in a n y n e g o ti a ti o n s w it h S A A w h e t h e r – w i t h m a n a g e m e n t o r t h e B o a r d o f S A A a i m e d a t g e t t in g S A A t o a g r e e to 1 . 5 % s u c c e s s f e e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do you know who those engagements would have been with? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u , M r M a h l a n g u I’ d t h e n l ik e to m o v e 20 t o th e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e w e ’v e g o t a f e w m o r e m in u t e s b e f o r e t e a i f w e c a n u s e t h e m C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s le t ’s u s e t h e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u i f y o u c o u l d t u r n u p p a g e 2 0 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t, M r M a h l a n g u a s I r e a d p a r a g r a p h 5 .2 5 o n t h a t p a g e , y o u o ff e r t w o m o t iv a ti o n s fo r t h e c a n c e ll a t io n fe e t h a t w a s s o u g h t fr o m Page 48 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 S A A I ’ ll c o m e to t h e m i n a m o m e n t b u t j u s t s o w e g e t o u r fa c ts c o r r e c t , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t o n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t B n P C a p i ta l w a s a w a r d e d t h e w o r k to s o u r c e f u n d s , y o u w r o t e b a c k to S A A a n d s a i d y o u w o u l d li k e a c a n c e l la t io n f e e o f 5 0 % o f a l l y o u r fe e p r o p o s a ls u n ti l t h a t p o i n t i f th e r e w a s t o b e a te r m i n a ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u g iv e a t p a g e 2 2 , m o ti v a t io n s a s I h a v e it f o r t h a t c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e . To b e o f a s s is ta n c e , t h e f ir s t I p i c k e d u p midway down that paragraph where you start, 10 “ I n o u r c a s e G r is s a g h a d a lr e a d y f u r n is h e d u s w i t h p r o o f o f f u n d s a n d t h e r e f o r e f a i l u r e o n t h e p a r t o f S A A t o u ti lis e s u c h f u n d s w o u ld w a r r a n t a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e ” , Is th a t c o r r e c t t h a t , th a t w a s o n e o f h e g r o u n d s o n w h ic h y o u ju s t i fi e d i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b a s e d o n a d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n G r is s a g a n d Mr M n g a d i , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s t h e n r e la y e d t o y o u b y M r M n g a d i? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 D e fi n i t e ly y e s . T h a n k y o u a n d th e n t h e s e c o n d o n e t h a t I p ic k u p in t h a t p a r a g r a p h is to w a r d s th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e y o u s ta t e th e r e , “ in t h e a b s e n c e o f a c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e , t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r w o u ld h a v e w o r k e d ( s o m e t i m e s f o r m o n t h s ) a n d th e n o v e r t h e page and d e li v e r e d on i t’s mandate but r e c e iv e d no r e m u n e r a t io n t h e r e f o r e s i m p ly b e c a u s e t h e t r i g g e r fo r i t ’s r e m u n e r a t io n i .e . u ti lis a ti o n o f fu n d s w o u l d n o t h a v e o c c u r r e d Page 49 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 d u e to n o f a u l t o f t h e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r ” , Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d is i t a fa ir r e a d i n g t h a t , t h a t is y o u r s e c o n d ju s ti fi c a t io n fo r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e b e i n g p a id ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It is t h e o n ly j u s t if ic a ti o n . That work would have been done and despite t h a t th e d e a l c o u ld h a v e f a l l e n t h r o u g h , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, j a m a y b e i t is o n e b u t I t h o u g h t a n o th e r o n e w a s – i t ’s a n a c c e p t e d p r a c ti c e i n t h e i n d u s tr y, I t h o u g h t t h a t ’s w h a t – p a r t o f w h a t t h a t p a r a g r a p h s a y s , i n o th e r w o r d s n o t o n ly i s i t j u s t i fi e d b y v ir tu e o f th e fa c t t h a t t h e e n t i ty w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h e w o r k , b u t a l s o a s k in g f o r th is m o n e y i s o k a y b e c a u s e i t ’s a c c e p t e d p r a c t ic e i n t h e in d u s tr y, I t h o u g h t t h a t, t h a t w a s a n o t h e r r e a s o n y o u a d v a n c e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir, b u t h e r e it is w r it t e n r ig h t a t t h e b o t to m I t h i n k f o r m o n t h s a n d d e l iv e r y o n it ’s m a n d a t e b u t r e c e i v e d n o r e m u n e r a ti o n th e r e fo r e s i m p l e b e c a u s e th e tr ig g e r f o r i t ’s 20 r e m u n e r a t io n t h a t i t u t il is a t i o n o f f u n d s w o u l d n ’ t h a v e o c c u r r e d d u e t o n o f a u l t o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e ll i t ’s o k a y, I th o u g h t I w a s tr y i n g t o h e l p y o u i n c a s e y o u m i g h t b e u n f a ir ly s a y in g y o u g a v e o n e r e a s o n f o r t h i s v i e w b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t y o u g a v e t w o b u t i t ’s o k a y, I th o u g h t y o u g a v e t w o r e a s o n s a t le a s t . O n e i s , i t ’s a n a c c e p te d p r a c t ic e , tw o y o u h a v e Page 50 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w o r k e d f o r th e m o n e y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s t r u e w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g s ir. CHAIRPERSON: O h b u t y o u a g r e e d t o M s H o f m e y r ’s – o r n o a c t u a l ly y o u d i d n ’ t a g r e e s h e s a i d t o y o u – s h e p u t i t to y o u , s h e a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r th a t w a s y o u r s e c o n d r e a s o n f o r t h e v i e w y o u t o o k th a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , a n d y o u r a n s w e r w a s , th a t w a s t h e o n ly r e a s o n , s o t h a t is w h a t tr i g g e r e d th is d i s c u s s i o n w i t h m e b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t y o u h a d m o r e t h a n o n e r e a s o n , ja , b u t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I think it was just a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g ja . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y t h a t ’s fi n e , n o I j u s t w a n te d to m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u d o n ’t t i e y o u r s e lf i n to a c o r n e r to s a y it ’s o n e r e a s o n w h e n a c t u a lly y o u h a v e g iv e n m o r e t h a n o n e r e a s o n , o k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e a r e i n d e b te d . I w o u ld l ik e t o f o l lo w u p o n t h e r e a s o n th o u g h th a t a p p e a r s a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e w h ic h is t h e r e a s o n r e la t e d t o th e w o r k t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n done. Mr M a h l a n g u d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t , u n t il y o u h a v e a m a n d a t e , t o s o u r c e fu n d s , i t w o u ld n o t b e a p p r o p r i a te t o s e e k r e m u n e r a ti o n f o r a n y 20 w o r k r e l a te d to t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d n o t b e e n m a n d a t e d t o s o u r c e f u n d s b y S A A u n ti l th e 2 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . S o w h y w o u l d y o u m o t iv a te f o r a c a n c e l l a t i o n Page 51 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 fee based on work done on the very sam e day that you received your mandate? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir, I t h in k t h e r e ’s m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e h e r e . R e m e m b e r w h a t I s a i d in it i a l ly a b o u t th e s u c c e s s f e e , th e s u c c e s s f e e w a s a c tu a lly d is c u s s e d o n t h e 1 2 t h o f M a y, y e s , i n e s s e n c e w h a t I ’ m s a y in g i s , b e f o r e e v e n th e le t t e r o f a w a r d w a s a c t u a l ly p r e s e n te d t o u s , w e s e n t a p r o p o s a l t o S A A t o s a y w e ’d a c t u a ll y r e q u ir e 1 .2 5 % . S o a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d , c o m e t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y w e w e r e a c tu a lly g iv e n a l e tt e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t s u b j e c t t o u s 10 s in g in g a S L A , it ’s o n ly t h e n th a t w e r e a l i s e d t h a t t h e o n ly t h in g w h i c h is a c t u a ll y n o t i n t h i s – t h a t w e ’v e a c t u a l ly n o t to u c h e d w h ic h is v e r y c r i ti c a l , i t ’s a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . S o I t h in k t h e q u e s ti o n is , it ’s th e w h e n , y o u k n o w w h e n a r e w e s u p p o s e t o h a v e d is c u s s e d i t , m a y b e t w o d a y s a ft e r r e c e i v i n g th e l e t te r o r a w e e k a f t e r, a m o n t h a f te r, I t h i n k m a y b e t h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n , t h a t m a y b e y o u ’r e a s k i n g u s . H o w e v e r, w h e n w e r e c e i v e d it , g iv e n t h a t a ll t h e c r i t ic a l a s p e c t o r t h a t w e r e c r it ic a l a s f a r a s w e w e r e c o n c e r n e d h a d b e e n a d d r e s s e d a n d t h e o n ly t h i n g , w h ic h is t h e b i g g e s t r is k i n o u r b u s i n e s s w a s t h a t c a n c e ll a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Mr M a h l a n g u y o u h a d n o m a n d a t e t o s o u r c e f u n d s fr o m S A A u n t il t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I agree with you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w o u ld n o t b e r e a s o n a b l e , I p u t i t t o y o u , t o s e e k a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e f o r a n y w o r k h a d d o n e to s o u r c e th o s e fu n d s prior to the 25th of May 2016. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir, M s H o f m e y r c a n y o u Page 52 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 m a y b e g iv e m e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e s o t h a t m a y b e o n t h e w e b p a g e b e c a u s e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t ’s – M s H o f m e y r y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g to a l e t t e r – a l e t te r th a t h e w r o t e , c a n y o u – c a n w e g o th e r e , I w o n d e r w h e th e r t h e p r o b le m m i g h t b e a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e u s e o f t h e s e n t e n c e , I t h i n k h e m e n t io n e d – w h a t p a g e i s i t , I w a n t o h a v e a lo o k a t i t b e f o r e h e answers. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , l e t u s g o f ir s t to y o u r m o t iv a ti o n o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y f o r th e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e , y o u ’ll f in d t h a t a t M s S ti m p e l’s 10 b u n d l e w h ic h is Ex h ib i t D D 1 a n d i t ’s i n th e B v o l u m e a n d y o u ’ ll fi n d i t t h e r e a t p a g e 4 9 4 a n d th a t i s u n d e r t a b 4 7 . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll Ms Hofmeyr I see that at least th is le t t e r … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is le t t e r h a s a d a te , i t is tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I think you may have c r e a te d the i m p r e s s io n … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d c r e a te … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l l e tt e r s f r o m B n P s h o u ld … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d I s h o u l d h a v e s a i d t h e m a j o r i ty, i n d e e d . 20 T h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e l e t te r s d o n o t b e a r a d a t e a n d I w a s e x u b e r a n t i n m y s u g g e s t io n t h a t i t w a s a l l b e c a u s e o f m y le v e l o f d i ffic u lt y i n tr y i n g t o n a v i g a t e w h e n t h i n g s w e r e s e n t o r n o t b u t t h is o n e is in d e e d d a t e d , 2 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 6 a n d y o u ’ ll s e e t h e fir s t li n e – s o r r y M r M a h l a n g u , d o y o u h a v e i t i n fr o n t o f y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . Page 53 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e fi r s t li n e r e a d s , “ w e a c k n o w l e d g e w i t h t h a n k s t h e a w a r d o f th is m a n d a te a n d h e r e b y g r a c i o u s ly a c c e p t i t ” , J u s t t o c o n fi r m , y o u ’d r e c e iv e d t h a t m a n d a t e o n th a t s a m e date, the 25th of May 2016, correct? C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u h e a r t h e q u e s ti o n o r w o u l d y o u l ik e to ju s t g o t h r o u g h t h i s l e tt e r fi r s t b e f o r e y o u a n s w e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: 10 No, I know the letter yes. O k a y t h e q u e s ti o n is b a s e d o n t h e fir s t li n e o f th e le t t e r y o u s a y, “ W e a c k n o w le d g e w i t h t h a n k s t h e a w a r d o f th is m a n d a t e a n d h e r e b y g r a c i o u s ly a c c e p t i t ” , A n d M s H o f m e y r a s k e d y o u t o c o n fi r m t h a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d t h e l e t te r o f a w a r d o n t h e s a m e d a y, 2 5 M a y, s h e w a s a s k in g y o u t o c o n fir m w h e th e r th a t i s t h e c a s e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s th e le t t e r w a s r e c e iv e d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f M a y. CHAIRPERSON: 25? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 26th. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u w e r e r e s p o n d i n g o n th e 2 5 t h . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I ’ m s a y i n g t h e l e t t e r fo r award. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s r e c e iv e d o n t h e 2 5 t h . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 26th. CHAIRPERSON: Ja but how could you respond on the 25th on a letter Page 54 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h a t y o u h a d n o t y e t r e c e iv e d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t h i n k th e r e w a s m a y b e a n e r r o r th e r e b u t th e l e t te r o f a w a r d w a s r e c e iv e d o n t h e 2 6 t h . CHAIRPERSON: 26th. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h e n th e r e w a s a m is t a k e w i th t h e d a t e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u m i g h t I a s s is t y o u b e c a u s e I a l s o 10 h a d s o m e d i ffi c u l ty w i t h t h a t d a te o f t h e 2 6 t h o f M a y. M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e f a c t is t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r o f a w a r d o n th e 2 5 t h o f M a y but it bore the wrong date, it bore the date of the 25th of March 2016. S o y o u f o ll o w e d u p w i t h S A A a n d s a id , t h e l e t te r i s d a t e d in c o r r e c tly a n d o n th e 2 6 t h o f M a y, y o u h a d a r e s p o n s e fr o m S A A c o r r e c ti n g it s a y in g s o r r y i t s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e s a i d M a r c h it s h o u l d h a v e s a id M a y a n d a tt a c h in g h e c o r r e c t ly d a te d le t t e r w h ic h w a s 2 5 M a y 2 0 1 6 . I t h i n k t h a t is w h y y o u r e c a ll t h a t it w a s o n t h e 2 6 t h t h a t y o u g o t th e a w a r d b u t a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t y o u g o t i t o n t h e 2 5 t h b u t y o u w e r e w o r r ie d a b o u t th e d a te in d i c a t e d o n i t , is t h a t a fa ir r e a d in g o f t h e fa c ts ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t ’s f a ir b u t i t w a s o n t h e – i t was on April not March, it was on April. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh my goodness Mr Mahlangu there was also a n o t h e r d a te – t h e r e w e r e t w o d a t e p r o b l e m s , I k n o w th a t th is h a s g o n e o n f o r l o n g b u t le t m e ju s t a s s is t y o u . Th e r e w a s a n e r r o r in y o u r fir s t le t t e r a p p o in t in g y o u a s a t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r, th a t w a s t h e e r r o r Page 55 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 b e t w e e n 2 0 M a r c h a n d 2 0 A p r i l w h ic h w a s c l e a r e d u p o n t h e 2 2 n d o f A p r il 2 0 1 6 , a r e y o u c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Okay there two date errors, I’m just trying to a s s is t y o u h e r e . W h e n y o u g e t i n t o M a y a s I h a v e t h e f a c ts y o u r e c e iv e t h e le t t e r o f a w a r d o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 6 b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e a tt a c h e d l e tt e r i t s a y s 2 5 M a r c h , s o y o u t a k e i t u p w i th S A A a n d y o u s a y S A A’s g o t t h e w r o n g d a te a n d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f M a y y o u a r e s e n t a c o r r e c t e d v e r s i o n o f t h e le t t e r w h ic h n o w b e a r s th e d a t e 2 5 M a y a n d n o t 10 25 March. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u p e r s o w h a t th a t m e a n s M r M a h la n g u , j u s t t o g e t b a c k i s t h a t y o u d i d o r i g i n a ll y r e c e iv e t h e m a n d a te a w a r d o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y a n d th a t ’s w h y, w i t h r e s p e c t i t m a k e s s e n s e f o r y o u t o g r a c i o u s ly a c c e p t it o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y, d o y o u s e e t h a t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S u p e r, r i g h t n o w w e c a n p r o c e e d b e c a u s e – a n d I w a n t t o g iv e y o u th e b e n e fi t o f m y b a c k g r o u n d t o m y q u e s t io n . Yo u a s k e d m e b e f o r e w e w e n t t o th e l e t te r, w h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f 20 a c a n c e l la t io n f e e , r i g h t , i n o r d e r t o a s s i s t u s h e r e M r M a h l a n g u , I’ m r e l y i n g o n n o t h i n g o t h e r th a n w h a t y o u y o u r s e l f s a y in y o u r s t a t e m e n t a b o u t th e b a s is f o r a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , s o l e t m e j u s t p u t t h a t t o o n e s id e . W e l o o k e d a t y o u r s t a t e m e n t , a n d a s I r e a d i t , y o u s a id , “ A c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e i s j u s ti f ie d w h e n w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e to d is c h a r g e a m a n d a te b u t th e n t h e d e a l f a ll s th r o u g h a n d i n Page 56 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s y o u s h o u ld b e r e m u n e r a t e d f o r a l l t h a t w o r k th a t h a d b e e n d o n e d e s p i te t h e d e a l n o t g o i n g t h r o u g h ” , Is t h a t a c o r r e c t r e f le c ti o n o f w h a t y o u s a i d i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: P a r tl y, C h a ir, I t h i n k … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: What is lacking? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h e l a c k in g is w i t h o u t f a u l t o f a s e r v i c e p r o v id e r, y e s a n d o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is – b e c a u s e c a n c e l la t io n f e e is a s t a n d a r d f e e , i t ’s a s t a n d a r d c o n c e p t , I th in k in th e 10 fi n a n c i a l s e r v i c e s s p a c e a n d o u r t h in k i n g t h e n o r r a t h e r o b j e c t iv e o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r l e t te r o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w a s to s a y t o S A A , S A A y o u ’v e a c tu a lly g iv e n u s a m a n d a te w h ic h is a r is k fr e e m a n d a t e s o m e a n i n g – I m e a n w h ic h is r is k m a n d a t e s o g o r is k c a p it a l o n o u r b e h a l f a t r i s k , i f y o u m a n a g e d a c t u a ll y to g e t s o m e t h i n g , t h e n w e ’r e a c t u a l ly g o i n g t o b e c o m p e n s a t e d a n d t h e c o m p e n s a ti o n , h o w a c tu a lly i t w a s d o n e w a s , y o u k n o w a s p e r t h e s u c c e s s f e e . S o t h e n – g iv e n t h a t t h i s – t h e o n l y t h in g t h a t w e h a v e a s f a r a s t h e b u s i n e s s is c o n c e r n e d w a s , w e ’r e g o i n g t o b e r e m u n e r a t e d o n ly o n t h e b a s i s t h a t w e a c tu a lly s u c c e s s – t h a t w e r a i s e th e f u n d s s u c c e s s f u l ly, o n e , tw o S A A u t il is e s 20 t h o s e f u n d s b e c a u s e i f t h e y d o n ’ t u ti lis e t h o s e fu n d s w e d o n ’ t a c t u a ll y g e t p a i d , s o th a t w a s t h e s p ir i t o f o u r l e t t e r w h e n w e a c t u a ll y s e n t i t t o t h e m t o s a y S A A , i f w e d o n ’ t a c t u a l ly – i f y o u , f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n y o u t e r m in a t e o u r m a n d a t e w e a c t u a l ly w o r k e d a n d t h e n y o u ’r e n o t a c t u a ll y u til is in g t h o s e f u n d s , th e n y o u a c t u a l ly n e e d to r e m u n e r a t e u s , t h a t w a s t h e s p ir i t o f t h e l e t t e r. Page 57 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e f o l lo w - u p q u e s t i o n s , b u t I p r o p o s e t h a t w e ta k e t h e b r e a k i f i t ’s c o n v e n i e n t n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e c a n ta k e i t n o w o r t a k e i t a t e x a c t ly h a lf p a s t , I’ m b u s y …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h I’ m h a p p y t o ta k e t w o m o r e m in u t e s a n d t h e n w e c a n t a k e i t a t h a l f p a s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t , l e t m e a s k t h is q u e s ti o n . Do you accept Mr Mahlangu t h a t g e n e r a ll y s p e a k i n g there are a c c e p ta b l e s i t u a t i o n s w h e r e s o m e b o d y w il l d o s o m e w o r k a n d o n l y g e t 10 p a i d i f a c e r t a i n r e s u lt is a c h ie v e d a n d i f it s n o t a c h i e v e d d e s p i te t h a t p e r s o n h a v i n g p u t i n a l o t o f e ff o r t t h e y m ig h t n o t b e o r t h e y w o u l d n o t b e p a i d a n y t h i n g , y o u a c c e p t t h a t in li f e , t h a t h a p p e n s q u it e a l o t. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o h a v e a d d e d a f u r th e r r e q u ir e m e n t , th a t t h e r e ’s n o fa u lt o f t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r w h e n a c a n c e l la t io n f e e is s o u g h t b u t I w o u l d li k e t o fo c u s , fo r t h i s d e b a te o n t h e f ir s t p a r t , t h a t a c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e is j u s ti f ie d b e c a u s e w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e a n d d e s p i t e th e w o r k b e in g d o n e t h e f u n d s a r e n o t u t il is e d . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . Th a n k y o u , i f t h a t is s o Mr M a h la n g u o n t h e 25th of May 2016, you had not yet been mandated to do any work in s o u r c in g fu n d s f o r S A A , c o r r e c t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . Th e n m y q u e s t io n i s , h o w c o u l d y o u m o t iv a te Page 58 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 f o r a c a n c e l la t io n fe e o n th e s a m e d a y t h a t y o u w e r e g iv e n t h a t a w a r d o n t h e b a s is o f w o r k d o n e a s y o u h a d d o n e n o w o r k ? CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y I t h i n k t h is i s – i t w a s a t t h is s t a g e y o u w e r e a s k i n g t h is q u e s t io n t h a t I w a n t e d t o g o to t h e l e t te r b e c a u s e t h e r e m a y b e s o m e c o n f u s io n , l e t ’s g o t o th e l e t t e r a n d I w a n t t o s e e t h e s e n te n c e th a t y o u r e ly o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , C h a ir i f w e g o t o t h e l e t t e r o n p a g e 4 9 4 , a n d C h a i r m y q u e s ti o n a c t u a ll y d e r i v e s fr o m w h a t M r M a h l a n g u s a i d in h is s t a te m e n t b u t I th i n k f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h is d e b a t e i t’s u s e f u l t o 10 lo o k a t h o w M r M a h l a n g u m o t iv a te d f o r th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e o n th a t d a y, a n d y o u ’l l fi n d it m o s t c l e a r l y e x p r e s s e d i n t h e p e n u l ti m a t e p a r a g r a p h , M r M a h l a n g u w o u l d y o u m i n d r e a d i n g t h a t f o r u s , i t s ta r t s , “ T h i s is t o e n s u r e ” . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir, “ T h i s is t o e n s u r e t h a t w e d e liv e r o n – s o r r y, t h is i s t o e n s u r e t h a t w h e n w e d e li v e r o n a l l m a n d a t e s e n tr u s t e d to u s b y S A A , a c c o r d i n g l y s h o u l d S A A d e c id e t o u n i la t e r a l ly t e r m i n a t e o u r s e r v ic e s a h e a d o f u s fu l fi ll in g o u r m a n d a t e , f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s , o n a n y m a t t e r o u t s i d e o f o u r c o n tr o l , a c a n c e l la t io n 20 f e e o f 5 0 % o f a l l f e e s a s p e r o u r p r o p o s a ls to S A A s h a l l b e c o m e d u e a n d p a y a b le 5 w o r k i n g d a y s f r o m t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n n o t i fic a ti o n d a t e ” . CHAIRPERSON: I d o n ’ t s e e w h a t I w a s lo o k in g f o r t h e r e , i t w a s t h e w o r k d o n e p a r t th a t I … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir th a t ’s w h y I w a n t e d t o c la r i fy, t h e Page 59 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p o i n t a b o u t w o r k d o n e a c t u a lly d e r i v e s fr o m M r M a h l a n g u ’s s ta t e m e n t, b e c a u s e it ’s i n th e s t a m e n w h e r e Mr M a h l a n g u is d e a l in g w i t h th is c a n c e l la t io n fe e , i t w a s a t p a g e 2 0 w h e r e h e s a y s , “ T h e r e a s o n w h y a c a n c e l la t io n f e e s h o u l d b e p a i d o r i t’s r e a s o n a b l e fo r i t t o b e p a i d is b e c a u s e o f w o r k d o n e ” , W e s a w th a t a t p a g e 2 0 o f h is s t a t e m e n t. S o m y q u e s ti o n a r i s e s fr o m th a t , i n t h e li g h t o f a n e x c h a n g e o n t h e v e r y s a m e d a y th a t B n P g e ts i ts m a n d a t e t o s o u r c e f u n d s , t h a t a c a n c e l la t io n fe e s h o u ld b e p a y a b le , e v e n b e f o r e th e m a n d a t e i f fu l fi ll e d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: L e t m e , le t m e p u t t h is q u e s t io n , d i d y o u w a n t – d i d y o u a s k o r d e m a n d t h a t S A A s h o u l d p a y a c a n c e l la t io n fe e f o r w o r k t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e d o n e i f a n y b e fo r e y o u w e r e a w a r d e d th e m a n d a t e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: N o s ir. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o if , p u r s u a n t t o t h is l e t te r, t w o d a y s l a t e r S A A h a d c a n c e ll e d y o u r m a n d a t e , w o u l d t h e y h a v e b e e n l i a b le f o r t h e c a n c e l la t io n fe e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 No. A n d w h y d o y o u s a y th a t , b e c a u s e a s I r e a d t h a t s e n t e n c e , t h a t w e l o o k e d a t , i t s a y, “ A c c o r d i n g ly, I’ m p ic k i n g i t u p – s o r r y th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e i n t h e p e n u l ti m a t e p a r a g r a p h , a c c o r d i n g ly s h o u ld S A A d e c i d e to u n il a t e r a ll y t e r m i n a t e o u r s e r v ic e s a h e a d o f u s f u lf il li n g o u r m a n d a t e , fo r w h a te v e r r e a s o n o n a n y m a t t e r o u ts i d e o u r c o n tr o l , a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e o f 5 0 % o f a l l fe e s a s p e r o u r Page 60 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o p o s a l s t o S A A s h a ll b e b e c o m e d u e a n d p a y a b l e i n 5 w o r k i n g d a y s , f o l l o w in g t h e c a n c e l la t io n n o ti f ic a t i o n d a t e ” , W h y d o e s t h a t n o t m e a n th a t t w o d a y s l a t e r, w h e n y o u r e c e iv e t h e n o t e o f th e c a n c e l la t io n s w h i c h w a s p r io r t o y o u r fu l fi l m e n t o f th e m a n d a t e S A A w o u l d b e l i a b le t o p a y y o u r c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th e q u e s ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I u n d e r s t a n d th e q u e s t io n b u t t h e q u e s t i o n – I t h i n k C h a ir, M s H o f m e y r c a n y o u – c a n a s s is t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y L e t m e tr y a n d a s s is t . Yo u h a v e – l o o k a t th a t paragraph that you read a minute ago. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I n t h e s e c o n d l in e i t h a s th e p h r a s e “ a h e a d o f u s f u l fi ll in g o u r m a n d a te ” , o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . As I u n d e r s t a n d t h is p a r a g r a p h i t s a y s t h a t s h o u ld S A A a f t e r h a v i n g a w a r d e d y o u t h e m a n d a t e , s h o u ld i t t h e r e a f te r, c a n c e l y o u r m a n d a t e , b e fo r e y o u fu l fi ll e d t h a t m a n d a t e t h e y s h o u l d p a y a c a n c e l la t io n f e e a n d I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t io n is – s e e k s to 20 e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r th is , a h e a d o f y o u f u lf il li n g y o u r m a n d a te , d i d n ’ t in c l u d e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e , y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e a n y w o r k . Yo u r e c e i v e d th e l e t te r o f a w a r d o n th e 2 5 t h o f M a y, 2 7 t h o f M a y S A A c a n c e l s y o u r m a n d a t e , in t h e m e a n ti m e y o u h a v e n o t d o n e a n y w o r k , w o u ld t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e b e p a y a b l e , i n t h a t s i tu a ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. Page 61 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Would it depend on you having done some work? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , h e n c e I w a s s a y i n g th e s p i r i t o f o u r l e t t e r, o u r d is c u s s i o n , w a s t o s a y t o S A A – b e c a u s e I t ’s a s t a n d a r d p r a c t ic e , t o s a y t o S A A , S A A w e ’v e r a is e d t h e fu n d s a n d h e n c e w e a c t u a l ly e v e n d i s c u s s in g , y o u k n o w, w i th t h e t e r m s s h e e t s , to s a y S A A w e ’ v e r a i s e d t h e f u n d s a n d t h e n p o s t r a is i n g th e fu n d s s u c c e s s fu ll y, a n d t h e n y o u d e c i d e n o t t o u t ili s e o u r fu n d s . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u r p o s i ti o n a n d i f n e c e s s a r y M s H o f m e y r c a n lo o k a t t h e l e t t e r if s h e t h i n k s th a t w h a t y o u s a y i s n o t r e fl e c t e d i n t h e 10 le t t e r b u t w a s y o u r i n t e n ti o n t o c o n v e y t o S A A t h a t o n e , i f y o u h a d a lr e a d y p e r fo r m e d y o u r w o r k a n d y o u ’ d d o n e s o s u c c e s s f u lly i n t h a t y o u ’ d s e c u r e d th e f u n d s , b u t th e y n e v e r t h e le s s te r m in a t e y o u r m a n d a t e , t h e n th e y w o u ld h a v e t o p a y t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t ’s th e o n e s c e n a r i o , h e r e ’s a n o th e r s c e n a r i o y o u h a v e s t a r te d w o r k i n g t o c a r r y o u t t h e m a n d a t e b u t y o u h a v e n o t s u c c e e d e d y e t d i d y o u i n te n d to s a y i n th a t s i t u a t i o n , t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w o u ld b e p a y a b l e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 q u e s t io n C h a ir, are you s a y in g Let me understand your we have s t a r te d the mandate a n d … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e n o t s u c c e e d e d i n g e t t in g th e fu n d s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So it wouldn’t be paid because w e h a v e n ’ t a c t u a l ly fu l fi ll e d o u r m a n d a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d n o t b e p a y a b l e ? Page 62 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s b e c a u s e w e h a v e n ’ t – r e m e m b e r o u r m a n d a te s a y s w e m u s t a c t u a l ly s e c u r e 1 5 b i ll io n y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay so if you have not carried – if you have not s u c c e s s fu ll y c a r r i e d i t o u t th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e w o u ld n o t b e p a y a b l e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s ir, I a g r e e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay so if you had spent a lot of – you had done a lot o f w o r k a n d s p e n t a l o t o f m o n e y t o w a r d s y o u r e ff o r ts t o s e c u r e t h e f u n d s b u t y o u h a v e n o t s u c c e e d e d , ir r e s p e c ti v e o f h o w m u c h e x p e n s e s y o u m a y h a v e i n c u r r e d , if S A A t e r m i n a t e d y o u r m a n d a te b e f o r e y o u 10 s e c u r e d t h e f u n d s fr o m th e m t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e w o u l d n o t b e p a y a b le ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I w i ll n e e d t o f o l lo w th a t u p b e c a u s e my r e a d in g o f t h e le t t e r s i n d ic a te s t h a t is n o t c o n v e y e d b u t w e w i ll d o t h a t a ft e r t h e b r e a k w i th y o u r l e a v e . CHAIRPERSON: N o th a t ’s fi n e , w e ’l l t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d – it ’s n o w a b o u t t w e n t y - o n e m i n u t e s t o t w e lv e , w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t fi v e t o t w e lv e , w e a d jo u r n . 20 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: We may proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Mr Mahlangu I indicated b e f o r e t h e b r e a k I w o u l d h a v e s o m e f o l l o w u p q u e s t io n s i n r e l a t i o n to t h e l e t t e r t h a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t in M s S t i m p e l ’s b u n d l e w h ic h a p p e a r s Page 63 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a t p a g e 4 9 4 . D o y o u h a v e th a t s ti ll in fr o n t o f y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d ju s t t o a id t h e p r o c e s s if y o u w o u l d a l s o g e t i n f r o n t o f y o u Mr Va n D e r M e r w e ’s b u n d l e . T h a t is t h e s o f t f il e t h a t I t h in k is u n d e r o n e o f y o u r o t h e r f il e s th e r e t h a t is E x h ib i t D D 3 a n d t h e p a g e t h e r e t h a t I a m in t e r e s te d i n is p a g e 3 1 , 3 1 . T h a n k y o u I w i ll b e r e l y i n g o n b o t h o f t h e s e le t t e r s s o i t is j u s t u s e f u l t o h a v e t h e m i n f r o n t of us. L e t u s s ta r t w i t h t h e o n e i n M s S t i m p e l ’s b u n d le E x h i b i t D D 1 B t h e o n e th a t is b e a r i n g t h e d a t e o f 2 5 M a y 2 0 1 6 . 10 Who drafted this le t t e r Mr M a h l a n g u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t is o u r p a r t n e r s i t is Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M n g a d i a n d t h e n d id h e f o r w a r d i t t o y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To I v a n y e s a n d m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u . S o d id y o u c h e c k i ts c o n t e n t b e f o r e i t was sent to SAA? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s i n Mr Va n D e r M e r w e ’s b u n d l e w h ic h i s E x h i b i t D D 3 t h a t o n e d a te d 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 5 20 who drafted that letter? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s M r M n g a d i a s w e l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id th e s a m e p r o c e s s t a k e p la c e ? D i d h e forward it to you M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s to Iv a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To I v a n f ir s t a n d t h e n d i d y o u c h e c k i t b e f o r e i t Page 64 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 was sent to SAA? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e fe r e n c e to Iv a n is a r e f e r e n c e t o Mr Iv a n M o y o ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Moyo yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr M a h l a n g u i n y o u r a n s w e r b e f o r e th e b r e a k to t h e C h a ir I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n e n ti t l e d t o a c a n c e l l a ti o n fe e fr o m S A A u n l e s s y o u 10 h a d d is c h a r g e d y o u r m a n d a t e i n s o u r c i n g f u n d s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n y o u d e s c r i b e d th a t to t h e C h a ir i n y o u r a n s w e r y o u s p o k e a b o u t th e s p i r i t o f t h e le t te r, d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w a n t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th is d e b a t e to s e p a r a t e th e s p i r i t fr o m t h e a c tu a l w o r d s u s e d in t h e l e t t e r if w e m a y ? T h a n k y o u . S o i f w e g o t o t h e l e t t e r d a t e d 2 5 M a y 2 0 1 6 w h ic h is in M s S t i m p e l ’s b u n d le a t p a g e 4 9 4 a n d t h a t is t h e p e n u l ti m a t e p a r a g r a p h th a t w e w e r e l o o k in g a t. 20 I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u w h a t i t m e a n s in t h a t s e c o n d s e n te n c e t o s a y : “ A c c o r d i n g ly s h o u ld SAA decide to u n il a t e r a ll y t e r m in a t e o u r s e r v ic e s a h e a d o f u s f u lf il li n g o u r mandate.” And then it goes on “ F o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n t h e n t h e r e i s a c a n c e l la t io n f e e Page 65 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h a t w i ll b e p a y a b le . ” W h a t d o e s i t m e a n t o s a y th e c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e w o u l d b e p a y a b l e a h e a d o f y o u fu l fi ll in g y o u r m a n d a te ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: r e s p o n d i t i n th is p a r t ic u l a r f a s h i o n . Ye s C h a ir. I g u e s s le t m e W h e n t h e le t t e r w a s w r i tt e n w e b a s ic a lly a s I s a i d t h a t c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e i s a s t a n d a r d fe e – i s a s t a n d a r d p r a c t ic e s o w e s a i d – w h e n w e s a i d a h e a d o f u s fu l fi lli n g o u r m a n d a t e m e a n in g o u r m a n d a t e w a s a c t u a lly t o r a is e a p p r o x i m a t e ly 1 5 b i ll io n fo r S A A a n d S A A h a d t o a c t u a ll y u t ili s e t h a t 1 5 b i ll io n . S o w h a t 10 it m e a n t is i f a ll t h e le g a l d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t h a s b e e n a c t u a ll y b e e n d r a f t e d a n d b a s ic a l ly [ in d i s ti n c t ] fi n a n c i a l c lo s e a n d S A A d e c i d e s a t a fi n a n c i a l c l o s e n o t to a c t u a ll y u t il is e t h a t a n d c a n c e l o u r fe e I m e a n o u r m a n d a t e i t is o n ly t h e n t h a t a c a n c e l la t io n f e e w i ll k ic k i n . S o it d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t i n b e t w e e n b e c a u s e w e u n d e r s t a n d i t w e d o in g th is th i n g a t r is k s o w e h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h i s w it h a l l th e m a n d a t e s a t r i s k . S o a t r is k w h a t b a s ic a l ly h a p p e n s i s w e t a k e t h a t p a r ti c u l a r r is k b u t i f w e h a v e r a is e d – w e h a v e a c t u a lly d o n e o u r p a r t a s fa r a s r a is i n g t h a t c a p i t a l a n d – b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r o u r m a n d a t e is f o r r a i s i n g a c a p i t a l a n d th a t c a p i t a l m u s t b e u ti lis e d . S o if y o u c a n r a i s e t h e c a p i t a l b u t i t 20 is n o t b e in g u ti li s e d t h a t c a p i ta l i t m e a n s w e h a v e n o t a c t u a ll y f u l fi ll e d our mandate. S o S A A a t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e w ill h a v e to a c t u a l ly r e m u n e r a t e u s f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r – f o r u s t o a c tu a l ly d e l iv e r th a t b u t f o r t h e m n o t t o a c t u a lly u s i n g t h e f u n d s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n d e l iv e r e d . I t h i n k t h a t w a s th e u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n w e a c t u a ll y d r a f te d t h is l e t t e r. It w a s o b v i o u s l y I t h i n k fr o m w h e r e M s H o f m e y r is s i t ti n g w e a r e n o t Page 66 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 la w y e r s u n fo r t u n a t e l y a n d y e s a n d n o w i f o n e h a d t o a c t u a l ly b e c a u s e w h e n t h i s l e t te r w a s w r i t t e n w e w r o t e – w h e n w e w r o t e i t t o a n o t h e r fi n a n c i a l – y o u k n o w w e a s s u m e d t h a t i t i s a n o t h e r f in a n c ia l [i n d is t in c t ] t h e p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e s e t h in g s a c t u a ll y d o h a p p e n i n t h e m a r k e t . A n d i f th e r e w e r e a n y is s u e s t h e y w o u ld a c tu a l ly e n g a g e u s f u r t h e r b e c a u s e t h is w a s – th is p r o p o s a l r i g h t at the beginning. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th is e x t e n d e d e x p l a n a t io n y o u h a v e g iv e n is n o t c o n ta i n e d i n th e l a n g u a g e o f t h e le t t e r ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s C h a ir. Th e – o b v i o u s ly w h e n o n e w r i te s th is l e t t e r t o a n o t h e r fi n a n c ia l [i n d i s ti n c t ] p e r s o n w e d o n o t a c t u a ll y p u t a ll t h e d e t a ils in a s e n s e t h a t th e y u n d e r s t a n d . W h e n s o m e o n e s a y s a c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e th e y a c t u a ll y u n d e r s ta n d w h a t a c a n c e l la t io n f e e m e a n s . B u t I a g r e e w it h M s H o f m e y r to s a y w e d id n o t a c t u a ll y e x p la in i t i n d e ta il y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a h e a d o f u s f u l fi ll in g o u r m a n d a t e a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t m e a n t b e f o r e y o u s u c c e e d e d i n g e t ti n g t h e f u n d s f o r S A A o r a r e y o u s a y i n g b e f o r e t h a t a n d w i th o u t S A A u s in g t h e f u n d s I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e f u l f il m e n t o f th e m a n d a t e t h a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t d i d it i n c lu d e 20 t h a t S A A s h o u ld u t il is e t h e fu n d s o r i t w o u ld b e a – i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e f u l f il m e n t a fu l fi l m e n t o f y o u r m a n d a t e i f y o u s e c u r e d th e f u n d s ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e t h e r S A A u ti li s e d th e m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir I t h i n k i n t h is c a s e is t h e q u e s ti o n o f i s u s r a is i n g t h e f u n d s b e c a u s e e v e n in t h e d is c u s s i o n y o u c o u ld u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e k e p t o n G r is s a g k e p t o n b e i n g m e n t io n e d Page 67 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w h ic h th e y w e r e a c t u a l ly th e b a c k e r s t h e n . So to come to your q u e s t io n i s i t i s f o r u s to s e c u r e th e fu n d s . CHAIRPERSON: I r r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e th e r S A A u t i lis e s t h o s e f u n d s o r not? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . T h e p e n a l ty t h e n c o m e s t o s a y – b e c a u s e o u r m a n d a t e i s – b e c a u s e t h e o n ly ti m e S A A w i ll p a y u s is w h e n S A A a c t u a lly u ti li s e s t h e f u n d . W e c a n r a i s e t h e f u n d a n d S A A s ig n s o n t h e te r m s h e e t a n d a l l o th e r d o c u m e n ta t io n b u t d e c i d e s n o t t o u til is e t h a t f u n d s o in a n y e v e n t w e a c t u a ll y h a v e n o t fu l fi ll e d t h a t 10 p a r t ic u l a r mandate because we have n o t b e e n p a id because – r e m e m b e r C h a ir w e g e t p a i d o n d r a w d o w n s o th e … CHAIRPERSON: N o t h e m a n d a t e i s n o t w h a t t h e S A A w o u l d d o to – w o u ld d o , is i t n o t ? T h e m a n d a t e i s w h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d o ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o w th e q u e s t i o n is y o u g o t o A a n d s a y w e h a v e a c l ie n t o u r c l ie n t is c a ll e d S A A t h e y n e e d R 5 0 b il li o n a n d y o u – a n d A a g r e e s I w i ll g iv e y o u R 5 0 b i ll i o n fo r S A A a n d t h e s e a r e th e t e r m s o n w h ic h I w i ll g iv e t h e R 5 0 b il li o n t o y o u . A n d y o u g o t o S A A t h e y s a y n o t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w it h t h e s e t e r m s i t i s f in e . 20 B u t fo r s o m e r e a s o n t h a t y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e y d e c i d e n o t t o g o a h e a d w o u ld y o u h a v e f u l fi ll e d y o u r m a n d a t e o r w o u l d y o u n o t h a v e fu l fi ll e d y o u r m a n d a t e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s S ir i t d e p e n d s a t w h a t p o i n t. If,… CHAIRPERSON: At the point where 1 . Yo u h a v e s e c u r e d t h e f u n d s . S A A h a s s a i d t h e t e r m s a n d Page 68 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o n d i ti o n s a tt a c h e d t o t h e f u n d s h a v e n o p r o b le m b u t w h e t h e r t h e y h a v e s i g n e d o r n o t th e y ju s t d e c id e n o t t o u t il is e t h e f u n d s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: At that point … C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u o r h a v e y o u n o t fu l fil l e d y o u r m a n d a t e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C a n I s p e c i fy – c a n I c l a r i fy w h e r e w e w o u l d a c t u a l ly s a y w e f u l fi ll e d o u r m a n d a t e ? a . I f w e h a v e a c t u a ll y r a is e d t h e f u n d s . b . S A A h a s a c t u a l ly s i g n e d a te r m s h e e t o n t h o s e f u n d s . c . T h e r e a r e d r a f ts a g r e e m e n ts o n th o s e p a r ti c u la r f u n d s o n t h e 10 d is c u s s io n a n d d . W e h a v e a c t u a ll y f i n a li s e d th o s e d r a f t a g r e e m e n t . A n d th e n a t t h e e n d S A A d e c i d e s n o t t o a c t u a ll y u s e th e f u n d s t h a t w e h a v e a c t u a ll y b e e n s e c u r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e n t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W il l k ic k in . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y w o u l d b e p a y a b l e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o t b e f o r e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o t b e f o r e t h a t. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d l e t u s g o t o th e le t t e r in M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s b u n d l e w h ic h i s D – E x h i b i t D D 3 p a g e 3 1 . T h a t i s a s I h a v e i t in t h e s e q u e n c e is t h e s e c o n d f o ll o w u p le t te r th a t y o u s e n d in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e a n d a g a i n I w a n t t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n t o t h e s a m e l a n g u a g e b e i n g u s e d a b o u t b e f o r e t h e f u lf il m e n t o f t h e m a n d a te . Page 69 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t i n t h e t h i r d p a r a g r a p h fr o m t h e t h i r d li n e . I t r e a d s : “Should SAA terminate this mandate before it s f u l fi l m e n t b e c a u s e o f m a t te r s o r i s s u e s o u t s i d e o f B N P C a p i t a l ’s c o n tr o l B N P C a p i t a l ’s p a r tn e r s o r s t a k e h o ld e r s h a v e a c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e in U S d o ll a r s a g a in s t B N P d u e t o t h e c o s t s i n c u r r e d o f f ly in g a r o u n d t h e w o r l d t o s o u r c e f u n d in g f o r a n d b e h a lf o f S A A a n d t h e n i t s a y s : p le a s e n o t e t h a t t h e 5 0 % o f t h e f e e s t h a t w e a s k e d f o r e q u a t e to B N P ’s a c t u a l 10 c a n c e l la t io n c o s ts . ” M r M a h l a n g u d o y o u s e e a g a in t h e r e t h e r e is t h e r e f e r e n c e t o b e fo r e t h e f u l fi l m e n t o f th e m a n d a t e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a v e h a d a n e n g a g e m e n t w it h t h e C h a ir a b o u t w h a t t h a t m e a n s a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I p u t i t t o y o u a g a in th a t m o r e d e t a il e d e x p l a n a t io n t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e to b e m u c h f u r th e r d o w n t h e r o a d o f s u c c e s s i n a c h i e v in g t h e s o u r c i n g o f fu n d s d o e s n o t a p p e a r o n t h is 20 le t t e r, d o e s i t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a g r e e b u t a s I h a v e s a i d th a t w h e n y o u a c t u a l ly w r i te th e s e l e t t e r s y o u w r i t e t o a n o t h e r f in a n c i a l y o u k n o w a s t u t e p e r s o n . S o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r e x p l a n a t i o n i t w a s a c tu a lly n o t n e c e s s a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t m e a s k y o u t h is q u e s t io n o r l e t m e m a k e t h i s Page 70 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o p o s i ti o n t o y o u f o r y o u r c o n s i d e r a t io n . W h a t w o u l d y o u s a y t o th e p r o p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n w h i c h y o u h a v e g iv e n t o m e a s t o w h e n a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w o u l d b e p a y a b l e a c t u a ll y m e a n s a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w o u l d b e p a y a b le a f t e r t h e fu l fi l m e n t o f y o u r m a n d a te . Whereas b o t h t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 4 9 4 , t h e l e t te r o f 2 5 M a y 2 0 0 6 fr o m y o u r c o m p a n y to S A A a n d t h e l e tt e r fr o m y o u r c o m p a n y t o S A A i n M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s fi le b o th s a y t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e w o u ld b e p a y a b l e b e f o r e t h e f u l fi l m e n t o f th e m a n d a t e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: That they – what you say and what the letter say are d i ff e r e n t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s h e n c e I s a i d t h a t y o u k n o w we are not lawyers. I t h i n k in h in d s i g h t n o w a l a w y e r c o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y d r a f te d i t m u c h b e t t e r th a n h e d i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u d i d y o u e n q u ir e o f M s N h a n ts i i f s h e u n d e r s to o d i t i n th e s a m e w a y t h a t y o u d i d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o w e g o t a r e s p o n s e fr o m h e r 20 h o w e v e r a n d h e r r e s p o n s e w a s c a n y o u e la b o r a t e o n t h a t c a n c e l l a t i o n fee? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e ju s ti fi c a t io n fo r i t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e w e d o n o t h a v e t o g o th e r e n o w. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 71 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h e n s h e m o t iv a t e d t o t h e b o a r d s h e c e r t a i n l y d i d n o t h a v e th is m o r e n u a n c e d u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e te r m s o n w h ic h t h e m a n d a t e w o u l d b e – t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w o u l d b e p a i d , a r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s S ir – I th i n k I a g r e e w i t h that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B u t I a m n o t s u r p r is e d b u t h a v i n g h e a r d – h e r t e s ti m o n y h e r e a n d t h e le v e l o f e x p e r i e n c e 10 e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e fi n a n c i a l m a r k e t s p a c e I a m n o t s u r p r is e d w h y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But then why did you assume you would be w r i t in g t o s o m e b o d y w h o w o u ld h a v e t h a t m o r e d e ta il e d e x p e r i e n c e a n d s o w o u l d r e a d in t o t h e w o r d s b e fo r e f u lf il m e n t o f t h e m a n d a t e a l l o f t h e s e q u i t e c o m p li c a t e d t h in g s a b o u t w h e r e y o u a r e i n t h e t i m e li n e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: R e m e m b e r w e a c tu a lly – y e s C h a ir w e d e a l in g w i t h t h e C F O o f a h u g e p a r a s t a t a l s o I w o u l d n o t a c t u a ll y t h i n k a n y le s s e r t h a n a p e r s o n w h o i s a c t u a l ly is s u p p o s e d t o h a v e e x p e r i e n c e in t h a t p o s i ti o n . A n d a l s o j u s t to a d d t h e w h e n w e a c t u a ll y d is c u s s th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e i t w a s n o t d is c u s s e d in is o l a ti o n . 20 A t th is p o i n t i n ti m e w e w e r e a n t ic i p a ti n g t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o a c t u a l ly e n t e r i n t o a n [ i n d is ti n c t ] a n d th a t [ i n d is ti n c t ] w a s g o i n g t o b e y o u k n o w a s s is ti n g u s t o a c t u a l ly c a r v e o u t t o a c tu a l ly p u t m o r e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n it . A t t h is p o i n t i n ti m e w e a r e a c t u a ll y j u s t p u t t in g p r o p o s a l to s a y t h is is h o w t h i s t h i n g is g o in g to a c t u a ll y w o r k h o w e v e r w e a r e s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r th e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t s i g n e d a n y c o n t r a c t w i th S A A – Page 72 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w i t h S A A t h e n . S o w e a r e s a y in g t o S A A – S A A t h e s e a r e o u r te r ms i f w e – y o u k n o w a n ti c i p a t in g – a n ti c i p a t io n o f t h a t c o n tr a c t t h a t n e e d s t o b e p a r t o f t h a t c o n tr a c t . S o i t w a s a c tu a lly in t h e s p ir i t t o s a y f ir s tl y t h is i s t h e f e e th a t w e a r e c h a r g i n g , s e c o n d ly t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e s o p u t t h o s e in t h e d r a f t l e t u s a c t u a ll y h a v e a d is c u s s i o n a b o u t it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e t h e s e – th is p h r a s e a h e a d o f u s f u lf il li n g o u r m a n d a t e i n t h e l e tt e r o f 2 5 M a y – y o u a r e n o t s a y i n g t h a t y o u d i d n o t – y o u d i d n o t s e e i t i n t h e le t t e r y o u o b v i o u s ly m u s t h a v e s e e n i t th e p h r a s e ‘a h e a d o f u s f u lf il li n g o u r m a n d a t e ’ y o u a r e n o t s a y i n g y o u d i d 10 n o t s e e i t i n th e l e t te r ? Yo u d i d s e e i t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir I s a i d I d id s e e i t . r Ys . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d I – h o w e v e r – t h e d i ffe r e n c e is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d th e i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f i t y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u s a y in g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t a h e a d o f 20 u s f u l fi ll i n g o u r m a n d a t e m e a n t a f t e r y o u h a d – a ft e r a ll t h e t h in g s y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d h a d b e e n d o n e , w a s t h a t your understanding? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s S ir. Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w o u ld h a v e b e e n th a t a h e a d y o u w o u l d r e a d a h e a d to m e a n a ft e r ? A h e a d o f fu l fi ll in g y o u w o u l d Page 73 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h a v e r e a d o r u n d e r s t o o d i t t o m e a n a f te r t h e fu l fi l m e n t o f th e m a n d a te ? A t le a s t i n te r ms o f y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : C h a ir I w a n t – m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f a h e a d o f u s fu l fi ll in g o u r m a n d a t e i n o u r – I th i n k t h e n w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h is w h e r e w e w e r e s i t ti n g a n d I w a s s it t in g i n a p o s i ti o n w h e r e w e w e r e s a y in g w h e n a r e w e g o i n g t o b e i n a p o s i t io n t o f u l f il o u r mandate? O u r m a n d a te i s f u l f il le d o n c o n d i ti o n t h a t S A A a c t u a l ly w i t h d r a w – I m e a n u ti lis e t h e f u n d i n g . I f t h e y d o n o t u t il is e t h e f u n d i n g w e h a v e n o t a c t u a l ly f u l fi ll e d o u r m a n d a t e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d o f c o u r s e th e le t t e r in M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s f il e d o e s n o t u s e t h e w o r d a h e a d i t s a y s b e fo r e i ts fu l fi l m e n t t h a t i s b e fo r e t h e fu l fil m e n t o f th e m a n d a t e . Yo u w o u ld h a v e h a d t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t i t m e a n t a f t e r a ll t h o s e s t e p s h a d b e e n t a k e n ? T h e f u l fi l m e n t w o u ld o c c u r w h e n a l l t h o s e s t e p s t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d h a d ta k e n p l a c e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e f u lf il m e n t o c c u r s I k n o w I maybe it is just language issue here yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e i t i s th a t b o t h o f u s E n g li s h is n o t o u r b e s t f ir s t la n g u a g e . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w e – y o u s p e a k v e r y y o u k n o w g o o d E n g l is h I t h i n k y o u a r e f l u e n t s o – b u t I a m n o t t e m p ti n g – t r y i n g to h o l d t h a t a g a in s t y o u I a m j u s t s a y i n g i t i s n o t o u r fir s t l a n g u a g e b o t h o f u s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. I a g r e e . T h e – o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g I t h in k th e o p e r a t iv e w o r d i s m a n d a te – f u l fi l m e n t o f t h e Page 74 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 mandate. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d h e n c e I s a i d it w a s w r i tt e n b y u s p r o f e s s i o n a l f i n a n c i a l p r o f e s s io n a l s a n d t h e n i f y o u g iv e i t t o o b v i o u s l y a la w y e r t h e in t e r p r e t a ti o n is d i ff e r e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I t h i n k w h e r e – h o w w e a c t u a ll y h a v e t o – h o w I a m t r y i n g t o c l o s e th a t g a p w h e r e I a m s i tt i n g is t o a c t u a lly g iv e y o u th e b a c k g r o u n d a s t o w h a t I w a s t h in k i n g t h e n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u s a y a n d I t a k e i t t h a t fr o m y o u h a v e b e e n t e ll i n g u s p e o p l e i n t h e i n d u s tr y w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d – w o u ld h a v e th e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g a s y o u i n t e r m s o f w h e n a c a n c e ll a ti o n is p a y a b l e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d is y o u r p o s i t io n t h a t if t h e in t e n ti o n o r i f t h e d r a f t e r o f t h e l e t t e r i n te n d e d t h a t c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e s h o u l d b e p a id e v e n b e f o r e th o s e s t e p s h a p p e n t h a t w o u l d b e t o t a l ly u n a c c e p t a b le a n d u n r e a s o n a b le ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t a f o l l o w u p M r M a h la n g u y o u s p o k e a b o u t w h e n w e h a d d i s c u s s io n s a b o u t th is in y o u r a n s w e r to the Chair a moment ago. C a n I ju s t c la r i fy th o s e a r e n o t d is c u s s i o n s y o u w e r e h a v i n g w i t h S A A w e r e th e y ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e y w e r e d is c u s s i o n s w h o b e tw e e n Page 75 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u r s e l v e s a n d M r M n g a d i? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O u r s e l v e s – y e s – o u r s e lv e s a n d t h e o ffi c e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h j u s t w i t h i n B N P C a p i t a l n o t in v o lv in g M r M n g a d i? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : M r M n g a d i h e fo r w a r d e d u s th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , t h e le t t e r a n d a n o te t o d is c u s s i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t th a n k you. I just wanted that c la r i fi c a t io n . I th e n w a n t t o p i c k u p th e p o i n t o n – w e c a n s t il l s ta y in 10 M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s f il e a t p a g e 3 1 . M r M a h l a n g u I a m g o in g t o u s e t h is l e t t e r a s il lu s tr a t iv e o f a p o i n t I w a n t t o m a k e i n r e l a ti o n t o a n u m b e r o f t h e s e le t t e r s . S o r r y j u s t t o g i v e i t to y o u a g a i n i t is p a g e 3 1 , 31. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Okay I am here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t is t h e s e c o n d l e t te r a s I h a v e i t m o ti v a t i n g f o r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . W e w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h e t h i r d p a r a g r a p h e a r l i e r. I w a n t t o j u s t g e t c l a r it y a s t o y o u r k n o w le d g e o f c e r t a i n f a c ts in t h i s le t t e r. W h e n y o u w r o t e in p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e r e t h a t B N P C a p i t a l ’s – m i d d l e o f th e w a y d o w n t h a t p a r a g r a p h – B N P C a p t i a l ’s p a r t n e r s o r 20 s t a k e h o ld e r s h a v e a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e in U S d o ll a r s a g a in s t B N P d u e t o t h e c o s ts i n c u r r e d o f f ly in g a r o u n d t h e w o r ld t o s o u r c e f u n d i n g f o r a n d o n b e h a lf o f S A A . C a n w e s to p th e r e ? Did you have knowledge of t h o s e f a c ts w h e n t h e y w e r e in c l u d e d i n th i s le t t e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: We were told. I did not – I did n o t a c t u a ll y h a v e c o n f ir m a ti o n b u t th a t is w h a t w e w e r e t o ld . Page 76 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w e r e y o u t o l d t h a t b y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u n o t t a k e a n y s te p s a t a n y p o in t t o v e r i fy t h e s e fa c t s w i th G r is s a g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d C h a ir t h a t Mr M n g a d i i s t h e o n e t h a t b r o u g h t G r i s s a g o n b o a r d . S o M r Pi e t e r Va n D e r M e r w e h a d a c t u a l ly a r e la t io n s h i p w i t h M r M n g a d i s o t h e y w e r e in c o n s t a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n . S o w h a te v e r t h a t c o m e s fr o m M r M n g a d i w e t o o k i t a s i t i s fr o m h i m i t is th e g o s p e l s o w e ju s t f u l f il li n g i t. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : How do you know they were in constant c o m m u n ic a ti o n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I f y o u c h e c k o u r f il e s e v e n t h e e m a i ls , t h e M O U t h a t h a v e b e e n s e n t t o u s i t is a c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f th e m i t ju s t g e ts s e n t t o u s . E v e n t h e m e e ti n g th a t w e w e n t to S A A w a s a r r a n g e b y M r M n g a d i s o t h e y w e r e i n c o n s t a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u o n t h e b a s is o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d n o w I a s s u m e y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e a b a s is t o d is p u t e w h a t Mr Va n D e r M e r w e s a i d u n d e r o a t h b e fo r e th is c o m m is s io n w h i c h is t h a t n o n e o f 20 t h e s e c o s t s h a d a s a m a t te r o f fa c t b e e n i n c u r r e d b y G r i s s a g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d th e n li k e t o j u s t m o v e o n t h e q u e s ti o n o f c a n c e ll a ti o n M r M a h la n g u t o th e r e d u c ti o n i n t h e s o u g h t c a n c e l la t io n fe e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. Page 77 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u a w a r e th a t i t s t a r te d a s 5 0 % o f a ll y o u r p r o p o s e d f e e s a n d th e n i t g o t r e d u c e d to 4 9 .9 m i ll io n a r e a w a r e o f t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e g o t o t h e l e t t e r in w h ic h th a t is c o n v e y e d t o S A A y o u w il l fi n d i t a g a i n i n M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s b u n d l e w h ic h is E x h i b i t D D 3 a n d i t is j u s t o v e r t h e p a g e w h e r e w e w e r e . Yo u w ill f in d it – s o r r y I a m j u s t l o o k in g th is – o h s o r r y I d o a p o l o g is e . I t i s p a g e 3 2 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I n th a t b u n d l e . Yo u w il l s e e t h e r e is t h is a le t t e r t h a t y o u s e n t t o S A A ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Does it follow the same approach as p r e v i o u s ly ? D i d M r M n g a d i d r a ft i t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u c h e c k i t b e fo r e i t w a s s e n t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u t a k e a n y s t e p s to v e r i fy th e fa c ts th a t M r M n g a d i h a d p u t in t h e d r a ft le t t e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 T h e f a c t s w i th r e g a r d s t o th e v a l u e s o r G r is s a g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l a n y o f t h e f a c ts ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . L e t u s lo o k a t w h a t h e s a id th e r e . t h e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h a s I r e a d i t is s a y s : “ O u r p r e v i o u s l e t t e r t h a t r e q u ir e d a c a n c e l la t io n f e e Page 78 of 279 In 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 of 50% of our total fees in the event that our f u n d r a i s i n g m a n d a t e i s c a n c e l le d b y S A A f o r r e a s o n s b e y o n d B N P C a p i t a l r e fe r s . ” Mr Mngadi I am just going to pause there but as these letters progress I w a n t t o p u t i t t o y o u t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s e le t t e r s g e ts l e s s a n d le s s c l e a r b e c a u s e t h is f ir s t p a r a g r a p h i s n o w s a y i n g n o th i n g a b o u t f u l fi l m e n t i t i s j u s t s a y in g i f w e c a n – i f S A A c a n c e l s t h e m a n d a t e a t a n y p o i n t t h e r e is g o in g to b e a c a n c e l la t io n f e e p a y a b l e , d o y o u s e e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r o n a li g h t e r note. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t b o th t h i s l e t t e r a ls o A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: H a s a d a t e a s w e ll a s t h e o n e o n t h e 3 1 s t o f – o n page 31 has a date. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h c l e a r e r e a r li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e n o w h a v e th r e e l e t t e r s fr o m … 20 A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A : W e d o t h e y a r e s t a n d in g a g a in s t m e . CHAIRPERSON: From BNP that have got dates. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . I th i n k w h a t I s h o u l d b e a n d in f a ir n e s s t o t h e r e c o r d a n d M r M a h l a n g u o n c e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e s s t a r t b e i n g e n g a g e d u p o n I n o t e m a n y d a t e s o n th e le t t e r s . t h e r e is n o t m a n y d a t e s t h a t I c o u l d fi n d . Page 79 of 279 P r io r to t h a t B u t i n f a ir n e s s to y o u I 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s h o u l d n o t h a v e s u g g e s te d t h a t t h e v a s t m a j o r it y d i d n o t h a v e d a te s s o I d o a p o l o g i s e f o r th a t . I f w e … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Accepted. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e m o v e d o w n to t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i t reads there: “ F o l l o w in g c o n c e r n s b y S A A t h a t t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e w e r e q u e s t e d is h ig h w e h a v e n o w c o n s u l t e d w i t h G r is s a g a n d t h e is s u e is t h e s u b s t a n t ia l c o s t o f th e ir 10 p e n a l ty t o u s i f w e c a n c e l . ” C a n I ju s t b r e a k t h a t d o w n ? When you wrote there, we have now c o n s u l t e d w i t h G r is s a g . W e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o y o u r s e l f ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Self meaning the company or t h e c o n s o r ti u m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o y o u r s e l f Mr M a h l a n g u a r e y o u p a r t o f t h a t we? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 S o w h o is th e p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s w h o w e r e c o n s u l t in g w i t h G r is s a g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n l i n e Tr a d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r t h e in d iv i d u a l ? CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was that answer? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n l i n e Tr a d i n g M r M n g a d i y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay Mr Mngadi Page 80 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t h i s q u e s t io n o f a s u b s t a n t ia l c o s t o f t h e ir p e n a l t y to u s if w e c a n c e l . A g a i n I a s s u m e y o u w e r e r e ly i n g o n M r M n g a d i f o r t h a t in f o r m a ti o n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w o u l d h a v e n o b a s is t o d is p u t e M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t th e r e w a s n o p e n a lt y t h a t G r is s a g w a s g o in g to impose on BNP Capital? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: There is… C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : J a r e p e a t th e q u e s ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e w a s th a t t h e r e w a s n o p e n a lt y t h a t G r is s a g w a s g o in g t o a p p ly, a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t? T h a t t h a t i s t h e e v i d e n c e h e g a v e i n t h is c o m m is s i o n . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m a w a r e o f i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b e c a u s e y o u h a d n o i n t e r a c ti o n s w i t h h i m y o u c o u l d n o t s a y t h a t h e i s g iv i n g f a ls e e v i d e n c e w h e n h e s a y s th a t , 20 could you? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I c a n n o t s a y it , I c a n n o t c o m m e n t ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: L e t m e a s k t h e q u e s ti o n i n r e g a r d t o th a t s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i n t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 3 2 w h i c h s a y s th a t G r is s a g w o u l d Page 81 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 i m p o s e a p e n a l ty o n y o u a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i f S A A c a n c e ll e d . N o w y o u see that part? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s th a t p a r t tr u e ? A s f a r a s y o u k n e w w a s i t tr u e t h a t G r is s a g w o u l d i m p o s e a p e n a l ty o n y o u if S A A c a n c e l le d MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . I would not comment on t h a t . I w o u l d n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w ould not know because to say 10 to it … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w – y o u d i d n o t k n o w t h e n a n d y o u d o n o t – y o u d i d n o t k n o w t h e n w h e t h e r t h a t w a s tr u e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But you – you – one would have expected that you w o u ld h a v e a s k e d M r M n g a d i w h a t is th e b a s is f o r th a t b e c a u s e I a m t h e H e a d o f B N P C a p it a l . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t h e r e t h a t G r is s a g is g o i n g t o i m p o s e a p e n a l ty o n u s . W h e r e i s t h a t ? W h e r e d o y o u g e t t h a t fr o m ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir r e m e m b e r t h a t r i g h t a t t h e 20 b e g in n i n g – I m e a n – p o s t – r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g M r M n g a d i h a s a c t u a ll y b e i n g e n g a g in g w i t h G r i s s a g r i g h t fr o m t h e s t a r t . S o i t is – i t i s – I th in k i t t o o k u s t o th is d a t e w h ic h is t h e 1 4 t h o f – I m e a n – 4 J u ly w h e r e h e h a s a c t u a l ly b e e n e n g a g in g . E v e n t h e ti m e s h e e ts th a t h a d been sent to us. I t w a s e x c h a n g e d b e t w e e n h i m a n d G r is s a g . S o a t t h is s t a g e Page 82 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w e – i n o u r m in d s w e a c t u a l ly h a d n o d o u b t t h a t p e r h a p s t h a t i s t h e d is c u s s io n t h a t h e h a d b e c a u s e f ir s t ly h e w a s a c t u a ll y i n t e r a c ti n g w i t h G r is s a g . S e c o n d l y h e w a s i n te r a c t i n g w i t h – w i th S A A . S o e v e n i n t h e le t t e r h e s a y s w e h a v e r e a lis e d t h a t y o u r f e e s a r e a c t u a l ly t o o h i g h . H e n c e o n o u r p a r t w e d i d n o t a c t u a ll y h a v e a n y d o u b ts in o u r m i n d th a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o a c t u a l ly n o w a t t h a t s t a g e e n g a g e – e n g a g e G r is s a g . S o w e t h o u g h t b a s e d a s p e r s t a t u s q u o a n d a s th i n g s h a v e h a p p e n in g h e i s a c tu a lly e n g a g in g w i t h G r is s a g a s – y o u k n o w – a s – 10 a s p a r t o f h is r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . CHAIRPERSON: But did you ask him Mr Mngadi whether indeed that w a s s o n a m e l y G r i s s a g w o u ld i m p o s e a p e n a lt y o n y o u if S A A c a n c e l le d ? D i d y o u a s k h i m w h e t h e r i n d e e d t h a t w a s s o o r y o u d id n o t a s k h i m ? Yo u – y o u a s s u m e d w h a t h e w a s s a y in g w a s tr u e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t a s k h i m ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I did not ask him. CHAIRPERSON: I am concerned w h e th e r you are not a s k in g p a r t ic u l a r ly w i th r e g a r d t o t h is a s p e c t - m a y b e w it h r e g a r d t o o th e r s 20 t h e r e m i g h t b e a n o t h e r a r g u m e n t – w h e t h e r y o u s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u c o u ld b e p a r t y t o c o n v e y i n g t o S A A s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s n o t tr u e a b o u t y o u r o w n c o m p a n y a s w e ll - th a t a p e n a l ty w o u l d b e imposed upon your own company by somebody when you know nothing a b o u t t h a t. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir a s – I – I a g r e e w i th w h a t Page 83 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u a r e s a y i n g n o w b u t j u s t t o g i v e y o u b a c k g r o u n d o f h o w th in g s h a v e a c t u a ll y b e e n h a p p e n i n g . As I indicated that Mr Mngadi was running w i t h t h e p r o c e s s o f a c t u a ll y e n g a g i n g w i th G r is s a g . S o f r o m – f r o m t h e word go even the term sheet even – you know – the changes in the t e r m s h e e t h e w a s a c t u a lly in v o lv e d i n t h a t . S o o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty b e c a u s e w h e n t h e – t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n – c a n c e l la t io n f e e c a m e – s t a r te d – th e d i s c u s s io n o f t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e s t a r t e d w h e r e I w a s s i t t in g a s a – a s a C E O o f B N P C a p i ta l t o m e it w a s t h e in i ti a l d is c u s s io n w h ic h a t s o m e p o i n t I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t t h a t 10 d is c u s s io n w a s g o in g to b e – y o u k n o w - c a t e r e d fo r in th e l e g a l d o c u m e n t – i n t h e S L A t h a t w e w e r e g o in g t o s i g n w i t h SL - w i th – w i t h SAA. S o a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d g iv e n th a t Mr – M r M n g a d i w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s a c t u a l ly i n c o n s t a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o – w i t h S A A a n d w i t h G r is s a g . W e a c t u a l ly – I ju s t a s s u m e d a s – a s t h e c a s e t h a t – a s t h e c a s e – y o u k n o w – h a s b e e n t h a t t h i s g e n t le m a n – M r M n g a d i h a s b e e n in t e r a c ti n g w i t h G r i s s a g . S o t h e y h a v e – t h e y h a v e e v e n s a id n o t h in g a t t h i s p o i n t i n ti m e e v e n 4 J u l y. T h e y e v e n s e n t u s a m a n d a te – G r is s a g – t h r o u g h M r M n g a d i 20 t o s a y w e m u s t s ig n th is m a n d a t e b e tw e e n u s a n d G r i s s a g . S o h e n c e I a m s a y i n g a t – a t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e I h a d n o d o u b ts in o u r – i n m y m i n d t h a t w h a t e v e r Mr M n g a d i w a s s a y i n g c o n c e r n i n g G r i s s a g w a s n o t tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t – t h a t is f in e . J u s t th is o n e q u e s ti o n . I n t e r m s o f y o u r e x p e r ie n c e i n th is – i n th is s e c t o r w o u l d th e r e b e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h a f u n d e r w o u l d i m p o s e a p e n a l ty o n y o u i f Page 84 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u r c li e n t e n d s u p n o t u t il is i n g t h e fu n d s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w i ll – t h e y w i ll – t h e r e i s n o s u c h i n t h e – i n t h e in d u s tr y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: There is no such. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h s u g g e s ts t o m e t h a t t h a t w o u l d b e a ll th e m o r e reason why you should have found – you should have wanted to know m o r e a b o u t w h y w o u l d t h i s f u n d e r i m p o s e a p e n a l ty o n u s b e c a u s e t h a t is n o t n o r m a l i n th e i n d u s tr y. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: An d I agree with you sir but the c ir c u m s ta n c e s h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e G r is s a g i ts e lf i s n o t a b a n k . I t is a n o t h e r e x t e n s i o n o f u s w h o h a s g o t a c c e s s t o f u n d s . S o – s o in t h a t – i n th a t l ig h t w e t h o u g h t G r i s s a g a c t s a – a s a n a d v is o r lik e u s – y o u k n o w – y o u k n o w in t h e b ig s c h e m e o f t h i n g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u I w o u l d l ik e t o p i c k u p o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a d d r e s s e d a t t h e e n d o f y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h r e l a t e s t o a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t M r M n g a d i r e q u i r e d t h a t y o u s i g n in 2 0 1 7 b u t b e f o r e w e g o th e r e I ju s t w a n t to b e c l e a r a s t o m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f 20 s o m e o f th e o th e r t h i n g s y o u s a i d in y o u r s t a t e m e n t . Mr Mahlangu I h a v e u n d e r s to o d y o u r s t a te m e n t t o i n d i c a te t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s t h e p r i m a r y c o n t a c t p e r s o n b e t w e e n y o u r s e lv e s a n d S A A . I s th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d G r is s a g y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d G r is s a g i n d e e d . F o r n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y t h e o n l y p e r s o n . Page 85 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t n o t ? T h e o n ly c o n t a c t p e r s o n b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f and SAA and …? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d G r is s a g y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u p ic k u p a t p a g e 4 3 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u w il l t h a t i n E X H I B I T D D 4 . CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e p a g e 4 3 p a r a g r a p h 11 . 3 .6 C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n p a r a g r a p h 11 . 3 . 6 y o u a r e r e s p o n d in g to t h e q u e s t io n : “ W h a t w a s t h e n a tu r e o f th e j o i n t v e n t u r e w i t h I n l i n e Tr a d in g ? ” Do you see that Mr Mahlangu? Apologies page 43. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a m a t p a r a g r a p h 11 .3 . 6 . Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e is a q u e s t io n b e lo w h a l fw a y d o w n t h e p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 11 . 3 . 6 . “ W h a t w a s t h e n a tu r e o f th e j o i n t v e n t u r e w i t h I n l i n e Tr a d in g ? ” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 86 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a m i n t e r e s t e d in t h e f ir s t t w o s e n te n c e s . Yo u w r i t e th e r e : “ I n l in e Tr a d i n g is t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s b r o u g h t i n by Mr M n g a d i explained in as the h is c o m p a n y. background As a lr e a d y I n li n e Tr a d i n g or M r M n g a d i w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r c o m p il in g t h e b id , li a is i n g w i t h S A A , p r e p a r i n g a l l le t t e r s , p r o p o s a l s a n d r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ta t io n . ” Do you see that? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d is th a t a n a c c u r a t e r e fl e c t io n o f t h e w a y things were run? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir I t h i n k w h a t w e n e e d t o d o is t o q u a li fy i n te r ms o f b e c a u s e t h e y a c tu a l ly g o t i n v o l v e d a s f a r a s t h e s o u r c in g o f c a p i t a l is c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l t h e y w e r e in v o lv e d r i g h t fr o m t h e o u ts e t … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s y o u r tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r p a r tn e r. W e r e t h e y not? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: The extent of it yes. At the b e g in n i n g a s a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r b e c a u s e t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r a c t u a ll y d id n o t g o a n y f u r th e r. Ye s i t w a s n o t a c t u a lly – w e d i d n o t d o m u c h . W e d i d w o r k b u t i t w a s a c t u a ll y o v e r t a k e n b y e v e n t s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t t h e s e f a c ts t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r c o m p il i n g t h e b i d i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 87 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hence I am saying now we need t o a c t u a l ly q u a l i fy. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e – t h e b i d t h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t is t h e – th e s o u r c e f u n d – s o u r c in g o f fu n d i n g . T h a t i s w h a t I – h e n c e I a m q u a l i fy i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh I see. Yo u a r e d r a w i n g a d is t in c ti o n b e t w e e n th a t a n d th e tr a n s a c t i o n a d v i s o r s e r v ic e s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e w a s n o b i d t h o u g h f o r t h e s o u r c in g o f funds. Was there? There was just a proposal? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To u s i t is a b i d . Ye s , j a . I agree. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh and li a i s i n g w it h S A A is that what Mr Mngadi did? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr e p a r i n g a l l l e tt e r s . Is th a t w h a t h e d i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Letters, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h e – p r e p a r in g a ll p r o p o s a ls . Is t h a t w h a t 20 he did? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: P r o p o s a ls – a s f a r a s t h e – I t h i n k m a y b e p r o p o s a l is ju s t to o w id e in a s e n s e t h a t i f s o m e o n e s a y s y o u p r e p a r e p r o p o s a ls i t i s – y o u a c tu a l ly – y e s i t i n v o l v e s q u it e a l o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o i n th is c a s e y o u w o u l d Page 88 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a c t u a ll y – h e w a s a c tu a l ly p r e p a r in g l e t te r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s b u t p r o p o s a l s n o p r o p o s a l s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s p r e p a r i n g t h e p r o p o s a ls ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : P r o p o s a ls it w a s u s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h o f t h o s e p r o p o s a ls ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: The proposals – I now have to d e f in e w h a t a p r o p o s a l m e a n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y t h i s is n e c e s s a r y a s a c la r i fi c a t io n o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h . M a y b e I c o u l d a s s is t w i t h g o i n g t h r o u g h th e p r o p o s a l s t h a t I a m a w a r e o f. T h e p r o p o s a l o n s o u r c in g o f f u n d s d id M r M n g a d i p r e p a r e th a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e p r o p o s a l a tt a c h e d t o y o u r o r i g in a l b i d d i d M r M n g a d i p r e p a r e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e p r o p o s a l – h is i n p u t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . F o r th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y. H is i n p u t , y e s . p r o p o s a l . T h a t is h is in p u t . CHAIRPERSON: He made – he made an input? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s u s e d i n th e p r o p o s a l ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 89 of 279 Not a 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: But the proposal was prepared by … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: By us. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r t e a m ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Not by him? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o h e e x c lu s iv e ly d i d t h e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s p r o p o s a l s b u t h e a s s is t e d y o u r t e a m i n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r 10 s e r v ic e s p r o p o s a l. Is t h a t a f a ir s ta t e m e n t o f t h e f a c ts ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e p r o v i d e d in p u t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e n I w o u l d l ik e t o g o to p a g e 5 2 of your statement – 5-2. M r M a h l a n g u a t th a t p a g e y o u b e g i n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 . 2 o n t h e b a s i s t h a t y o u a n d I a m q u o ti n g h e r e : “ F in d i t v i t a l t o b r in g t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n s o m e t h i n g th a t h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 7 . ” C a n y o u p le a s e t e ll u s w h a t t h a t w a s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir. Fr o m t w o p o i n t I said: 20 “ I fi n d i t v i t a l t o b r i n g it t o th e … ” O h , m u s t I e x p la in o r r e a d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . A n e x p l a n a t io n is … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s e n tir e ly a d e q u a t e t h a n k y o u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I n 2 0 1 7 I g o t a – a c a ll fr o m Page 90 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M r M n g a d i a n d t h e n h e s a id – h e s a i d to m e h e w a n t s a c tu a lly t o – t o s e e u r g e n tl y a n d w h e n I a c tu a lly g o t t o h i m a n d – a n d th e n h e s a y s to m e y o u r a c t u a ll y – o n e o f y o u r w h i c h - h e m e a n t Vo n a n i h a s a c t u a ll y a s s is t e d h i m – M r M a th e b u l a . H e a s s is te d h i m w i th t h e – w i t h o n e o f th e a ffi d a v i ts a n d t h a t a ffi d a v i t m e a n t t h a t w e – w e m u s t - y o u k n o w - t h a t h e i s n o t a n e m p l o y e e o f B N P C a p i t a l a n d th e n w e s a id – a n d t h e n h e w a s t e l li n g m e t h a t h e a c tu a l ly s p o k e to M r M a t h e b u l a . Mr M a t h e b u la a c t u a ll y a s s is t e d h i m a n d I s a i d y e s y o u a r e n o t a n e m p l o y e e o f B N P C a p i ta l 10 a n d – a n d s e c o n d ly h e s a y s t o m e a n d a ls o t h a t h e w a s n o t a c t u a ll y in v o lv e d w i t h a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t w a s a c t u a ll y i n d ic a ti n g t h a t h e w a s n o t a c t u a l ly i n v o l v e d i n c o m p il a ti o n o f th e b id m e a n in g o f t h e R F I. Ye s , I s a i d y e s w e c o m p i le d . Yo u p r o v id e d a n in p u t a n d th e n h e s a id o k a y fi n e c a n y o u a c tu a l ly s i g n o n t h a t – o n th a t – o n t h e a ffi d a v i t b u t n o w g iv e n th a t o n e h a s a c t u a ll y b e e n s i t ti n g h e r e u n d e r s t a n d in g a l l t h e is s u e s t h a t h a v e tr a n s p i r e d a n d – y o u k n o w – a n d I r e a l is e t h a t o n e h a s a c t u a l ly m a d e a m i s t a k e a s f a r a s th a t a s p e c t is c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e w h a t – w h a t i n e s s e n c e h e w a s tr y in g t o d o w a s t o 20 tr y i n g d iv o r c e h i m s e l f a w a y fr o m t h is t r a n s a c ti o n t o s a y h e d id n o t p a r t ic ip a t e . H e d id n o t p r o v id e a n y i n p u t . H e w a s n o t p a r ty to i t , y e s . S o I t h o u g h t i t is v e r y c r it ic a l t h a t I w o u l d b r i n g t h i s t o – t o th is C o m m i s s io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u c o n s i d e r c a r e f u lly w h a t y o u w e r e b e i n g a s k e d t o c o n f ir m a s c o r r e c t b e fo r e y o u s i g n e d th e a ffi d a v i t ? Page 91 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t r ie d b u t I a m n o t a l a w y e r b u t I t h i n k w h a t – w h a t h e w a s i m p ly i n g i s h e d id n o t b e c a u s e h e a c t u a lly m e n ti o n e d e v e n t h e b i d b e c a u s e w e – w e a c tu a lly c o m p l e t e d th e b i d . S o h e s a y s h e is n o t t h e o n e t h a t c o m p le t e d t h e b i d . I s a i d y e s y o u d i d n o t c o m p le t e th e b i d . W e d id it . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r w a n ts to f o c u s o n w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s t o o d w h a t w a s w r i t te n i n th e a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e y o u s ig n e d i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Whether you understood what it – what it meant. 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t h in k I u n d e r s t o o d a s a la y m a n a s f a r a s t h e le g a l i ti e s a r e c o n c e r n e d b u t I t h in k t h e e s s e n c e o f i t w h e r e I a m s it t in g w a s - w a s b a s ic a l ly s a y in g t o m e h e d i d n o t a c t u a l ly fi ll - s o r t o f c o m p le t e t h e b i d w h ic h is – is t h e b i d t h a t i s a c t u a ll y b e e n d is c u s s e d i n t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d I s a id y e s h e d i d n o t c o m p le t e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u s i g n e d d i d i t s a y h e w a s n o t an employee and had not been an em ployee of BNP and had not c o m p le t e d t h e b id o r d i d h e s a y s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C h a ir th e r e w e r e tw o . O n e w a s a c t u a ll y s i g n e d b y m e th i n k h e a c tu a l ly d e a l t w i th Vo n a n i M a t h e b u la t o 20 s a y h e w a s ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t - t w o a ffi d a v i t s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To s a y h e is n o t a n e m p lo y e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e o n e t h a t s a id h e w a s n o t a n e m p l o y e e Page 92 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Is n o t a n e m p l o y e e , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Was signed by Mr Mathebula? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Th a t i s w h a t h e t o ld m e a n d t h e n th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e v e r s a w th a t o n e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I did not – yes. No I did not see it . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s a n d th e – t h e o n e h e – h e b r o u g h t t o m e w a s – w a s b a s ic a lly s a y i n g to m e h e d i d n o t a c t u a l ly c o m p le t e th is b i d - t h e b i d d o c u m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i s t h a t w h a t t h e a ffi d a v i t s a i d a s y o u r e a d i t o r is t h a t w h a t h e t o l d y o u it w a s s a y in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t is w h a t t h e a ffi d a v it – y e s when I read it. CHAIRPERSON: Oh you - when you read it? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u u n d e r s t o o d i t t o s a y h e h a d n o t c o m p il e d o r c o m p le t e d t h e b id ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s b u t t h a t is w h y I a m s a y in g t h a t w a s – y o u k n o w – s o m e ti m e a g o . I m ig h t h a v e m is s e d s o m e o f t h e p o i n t s i n t h e r e b u t i n e s s e n c e t h a t is w h a t h e a c t u a ll y m e a n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 93 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h la n g u w e h a v e a s k e d y o u if y o u h a v e a c o p y o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t s t il l . D o y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o . H e a c t u a ll y b r o u g h t a h a r d c o p y, y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n d i d h e t a k e i t a w a y w it h h i m ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r ta k i n g ti m e to r e a d t h r o u g h i t b e f o r e y o u s i g n e d i t o r w e r e y o u r e ly i n g o n w h a t M r M n g a d i t o l d y o u it c o n ta i n e d ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I tried to read it, yes. I think as t h e – i t w a s – y o u k n o w – I th i n k i t i n v o l v e d a ls o – it w a s a b i t le n g th y. S o I tr i e d t o r e a d i t f o r m y o w n u n d e r s ta n d i n g . Hence I am saying I m i g h t h a v e m is s e d s o m e s t u ff b u t i n e s s e n c e I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t h e w a s s a y in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 . 2 y o u s a y th a t - o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u s ta t e d i n t h a t a ffi d a v it w a s th a t : “ M r M n g a d i w a s n o t i n B N P C a p i t a l ’s e m p l o y. ” B u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u j u s t t o h a v e s a i d in y o u r t e s ti m o n y th a t t h a t w a s s o m e t h i n g c o n t a i n e d in a n o t h e r a ff id a v i t. 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h ic h w a s i t ? Wa s th a t f a c t in y o u r a ff id a v i t o r w a s i t i n M r M a t h e b u l a ’s a ffi d a v i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : M r M a t h e b u l a ’s a ffi d a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o it is i n c o r r e c t w h e n y o u s a y h e r e y o u s i g n e d a n a ffi d a v it in t e r m s o f w h ic h y o u s t a t e d t h a t: Page 94 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 “ M r M n g a d i w a s n o t i n B N P C a p i t a l ’s e m p l o y. ” M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I th in k t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s in c o r r e c t . I t is a m is ta k e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e r e w e r e t w o a ffi d a v it s y e s . I t h i n k i t i s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e e x p l a i n e d in t h a t p a r ti c u la r f a s h i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a v e y o u m a d e a t te m p t s t o g e t a c o p y o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t fr o m M r M n g a d i ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. 10 CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a s k h i m w h a t p r o m p te d h i m c o m in g to y o u a n d a s k i n g y o u to s i g n t h i s a ff id a v i t? What had happened? W h a t is w r o n g a n d d i d y o u a s k h i m w h e r e t h is a ff i d a v i t w o u ld b e s u b m i t t e d t o ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I – C h a ir I th in k a f te r t h e – t h e e x p o s e I t h i n k o n t h e – y o u k n o w - th e a r ti c le s t h a t c a m e o u t th a t - th a t w e r e a lis e d th a t h e a c t u a l ly w a s e m p l o y e d b y N e d b a n k a n d b a s i c a ll y w a s – I t h i n k i t w a s – h e w a s fi g h t in g w i th N e d b a n k e v e r s i n c e . It w a s a c t u a ll y i n t h e p a p e r s . So in 2017 – you know – I am not sure what p r o m p te d h i m t o a c tu a l ly a s k u s t o a c t u a l ly d o t h a t . T h e n w e s a i d a s f a r a s y o u c o m p l e ti n g t h e b i d y o u n o t 20 a c t u a ll y i n v o lv e d . W e a c t u a ll y c o m p l e t e d t h e b i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – i t w a s i n t h e c o n t e x t o f – o f h is is s u e s w i t h Nedbank? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Nedbank, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t Mr M a h l a n g u if i t w a s p u b li c k n o w l e d g e a t Page 95 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h a t s ta g e t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s e m p l o y e d a t N e d b a n k w h il e h e p u t in a c o m p e ti t iv e b id w it h y o u r c o m p a n y th r o u g h In li n e Tr a d i n g w e r e y o u n o t c o n c e r n e d w h e n h e h a d a p p r o a c h e d y o u i n 2 0 1 7 to a s k y o u t o p u t a n a ffi d a v i t to g e th e r th a t w o u l d m a k e i t a p p e a r a s t h o u g h h e h a d h a d n o r o l e i n th e s u b m i s s io n o f t h e b i d t h a t y o u p u t i n ? Were you not concerned about that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e l y I w a s c o n c e r n e d s ir a n d h e n c e w h a t – w h a t b a s ic a ll y – o k a y t w o th i n g s . F ir s t ly o b v io u s ly i t w a s s u s p ic i o u s t o s a y w h y a t t h i s p o in t in ti m e b e c a u s e I t h i n k a t t h a t 10 p o i n t i n t i m e it w a s – I a m n o t s u r e w a s h e a lr e a d y f ir e d . He as no lo n g e r w o r k i n g , y e s . S o – s o w h a t w e w a n te d t o d o w a s t o a c t u a ll y s e t t h e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t fr o m o u r p a r t t o s a y h o w d o w e a c t u a ll y k n o w t h e f a c ts a s fa r a s w e c o n c e r n e d to s a y w h a t i s i t t h a t h e h a s d o n e w h a t is it t h a t h e h a s n o t d o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t Mr M a h la n g u if y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d t o s e t t h e f a c ts s tr a i g h t s h o u ld y o u r a ff id a v i t n o t h a v e s a i d w h a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t o r y o u r s ta t e m e n t b e fo r e t h is C o m m is s i o n s a y s w h ic h is t h is w h o l e t h i n g s ta r t e d w i t h Mr M n g a d i a p p r o a c h i n g y o u . Mr M n g a d i le d t h is t h in g t h r o u g h a l l i ts p h a s e s . Mr M n g a d i a s k e d y o u t o t a k e h is n a m e o ff th e 20 b i d d o c u m e n ts . W o u l d n o t t h a t h a v e b e e n t h e f u l l e s t a c c o u n t o f w h a t a c t u a l ly h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n B N P C a p i ta l a n d Mr M n g a d i? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I d o n o t a g r e e w i th t h a t b e c a u s e t h is - t h e a ff i d a v i t r e m e m b e r w a s g iv e n t o m e . I d id n o t d r a f t th e a ffi d a v i t . I t w a s g iv e n t o m e . I h a d t o r e a d t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d b a s e d o n Page 96 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e f a c ts a t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e w e r e a l is e d t h a t o k a y f i n e a s fa r a s t h e s e f a c ts t h a t h e is s a y i n g – y o u k n o w – t h e s e f a c ts a r e t r u e . W e a r e n o t – I w a s n o t a c t u a l ly n o t m is r e p r e s e n t in g a n y f a c ts . W e a r e j u s t s a y i n g M r M n g a d i f ir s t ly w h e n h e t o l d m e t h a t my – m y c o ll e a g u e a c tu a lly s i g n e d – h a s a c t u a l ly d e c l a r e d t h a t h e is n o t i n t h e e m p l o y o f B N P. I s a id i t is t r u e . H e i s n o t – h e is n o t e m p l o y e d b y u s a s fa r a s I k n o w w h ic h is f a c t a n d th e n s e c o n d ly a n d th e n h e w a s s h o w i n g m e a b i d d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s c o m p le t e d b y u s t o s a y t h is d o c u m e n t w a s s o l e l y c o m p l e te d b y B N P C a p i t a l . I s a i d y e s i t w a s c o m p le t e d b y u s a n d t h e n I s i g n e d t h e 10 a ffi d a v i t o n t h a t b a s i s a n d n o t a n y t h i n g m o r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I w il l p u t i t t o y o u i n f a ir n e s s b u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s t i m o n y t o b e t h a t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d to s e t t h e f a c ts s t r a ig h t in 2 0 1 7 a n d s a y i n g o n l y th e t w o t h in g s y o u s a i d i n t h a t a ffi d a v i t w o u l d n o t h a v e s e t t h e f a c ts s t r a ig h t a b o u t M r M n g a d i ’s e x t e n s iv e i n v o lv e m e n t in t h e B N P C a p it a l b i d . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n – in li g h t o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n I h a d C h a ir y e s t h a t i s h o w - th a t i s h o w I a c te d . If f o r s o m e r e a s o n s o m e o n e c a m e t o m e a n d s a i d w h a t w a s M r M n g a d i ’s p a r tic i p a t io n th e 20 d is c u s s io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ffe r e n t b u t a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e w h e r e I was g iv e – where I was given facts w h ic h are – w h ic h are s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d t o s a y t h e s e a r e th i n g s w e – I - y o u d id n o t c o m p l e t e t h is d o c u m e n t . Ye s y o u d i d n o t . I – I - t h e n o n t h a t b a s i s i t i s o n ly t h e n th a t I s i g n e d b u t I w i ll q u a l i fy t h e s t a t e m e n t s i r – I m e a n – C h a ir t o s a y in Page 97 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h i n d s i g h t y o u k n o w w h e n o n e lo o k s a t w h a t h a s tr a n s p i r e d a n d th e t e s ti m o n ie s a n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e h e n c e I s a id th a t I r e g r e t b e c a u s e w h a t M r M n g a d i w a s b a s ic a lly s a y in g h e n c e I b r o u g h t i t to th is C o m m i s s io n t o s a y w h a t M r – M r M n g a d i w a s b a s i c a ll y s a y i n g w a s tr y i n g to s a y h e n e v e r p a r ti c i p a t e d i n t h is – in t h e - i n S A A tr a n s a c ti o n . S o i t is o n ly n o w i n h i n d s i g h t t h a t I l o o k e d a t i t a n d t h in k w h a t it is w h a t h e w a s tr y i n g t o a c h i e v e w i th t h i s . Yo u k n o w – h e n c e – h e n c e I a m s a y i n g i t is – i t i s a d e c is i o n t h a t o n e r e g r e t s t o s a y o n e i f i n h i n d s i g h t g i v e n m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a n o n e k n o w s e v e n b e fo r e th a t o n e 10 w o u ld a c t u a ll y h a v e m a d e t h a t – t a k e n th a t d e c is i o n . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n t h a t w h e n Mr M n g a d i a p p r o a c h e d y o u a n d a s k e d y o u t o s ig n t h is a ffi d a v i t . Th e r e h a d b e e n t h e s to r y in v o lv i n g h i m a n d N e d b a n k h a d b e e n i n – i n t h e m e d i a a lr e a d y a s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s . Is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t w a s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d h e m i g h t e v e n h a v e b e e n f ir e d b y t h a t ti m e you were not sure. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . H e w a s n o t w o r k i n g a t th a t ti m e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t w o r k i n g a t th a t t i m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t h a d y o u u n d e r s to o d h i m t o b e in tr o u b l e w i t h N e d b a n k f o r b a s e d o n t h e m e d ia ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I – I r e a l ly d o n o t k n o w C h a ir b e c a u s e h e j u s t s a i d t o m e y o u r c o ll e a g u e h a d j u s t s i g n e d t h a t I a m n o t Page 98 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n e m p lo y e e . I s a id y e s . CHAIRPERSON: No, no Mr Mahlangu I am not asking about now your d is c u s s io n w i th M r M a h l a n g u . I a m a s k i n g w h a t y o u h a d h e a r d o r r e a d in t h e m e d i a … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e h e c a m e t o y o u w i t h t h e a ff id a v i t a b o u t w h a t h is is s u e s w e r e w i t h N e d b a n k ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Wh at – what we read and it was p u b lic k n o w l e d g e th a t h e w a s a c t u a l ly w o r k in g f o r N e d b a n k . 10 CHAIRPERSON: And what did that mean in the context of the role that h e h a d p l a y e d i n t h e b i d a s y o u r p a r tn e r in th e b i d ? I heard that you m i g h t b e n e e d in g to c a tc h a f li g h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m l a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h a t – w h a t ti m e m u s t y o u b e o u t o f h e r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w a s m e a n t t o b e a t h a lf p a s t 12. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y m a y b e ju s t a n s w e r th a t a n d t h e n w e w i ll tr y a n d l r e le a s e y o u a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e b u t i t h e l p – i t w o u ld h e l p if y o u a n s w e r q u e s t io n s y o u k n o w j u s t s tr a i g h t . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: S o th e q u e s t i o n w a s w h a t d i d t h e f a c t th a t h e h a d been employed by Nedbank … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d id y o u – w h a t d i d t h a t m e a n to y o u i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h e r o l e th a t h e h a d p l a y e d i n t h e b id ? Page 99 of 279 What mean – what 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 d i d p u t i t th a t – w h a t m e a n i n g d id y o u a t t a c h to t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Did it get you concerned or not about his role? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s i t v e r y m u c h c o n c e r n e d – a c t u a ll y o n e r e g r e ts th e m o m e n t – y o u k n o w – w e m e t h i m b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 Ye s – because ever since e v e r y t h i n g is . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t – s o – s o d id i t m e a n to y o u t h a t h e h a d d o n e s o m e t h i n g h e s h o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e w h il e he was employed by Nedbank? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d k n o w i n g th a t fa c t b e f o r e h e c a m e to y o u w i t h th e a ffi d a v i t I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t w o u l d h a v e m e a n t t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h m o r e c a r e fu l a b o u t w h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o s i g n b e c a u s e 20 h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y w h o h a d – h a d n o t d is c l o s e d t o y o u th a t h e h a d b e e n e m p l o y e d b y N e d b a n k a n d y e t w a s i n v o l v e d in t h is b i d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I – I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I think on my part hence I am s a y in g – h e n c e I s a id a t t h e b e g in n i n g y o u k n o w a c o u p l e o f m i n u t e s Page 100 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a g o t h a t i t w a s j u s t a l a p s e a s f a r a s y o u k n o w t h e d e c i s i o n th a t I made. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I p r o p o s e ju s t t o p u t s o m e c o n c l u d i n g p r o p o s i ti o n s t o Mr M a h l a n g u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t i n f a ir n e s s . T h e r e a r e I t h i n k o n ly s e v e n o f t h e m a n d h o p e f u l ly t h a t w i ll b e t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e s u b j e c t to t h e C h a i r ’s f o l lo w u p q u e s t i o n s . M r M a h l a n g u I w o u l d li k e y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h e f o ll o w i n g w h i c h a p p e a r s fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e I p r o p o s e t h a t B N P C a p i t a l a g r e e d n o t t o r e v e a l t h e 10 in v o lv e m e n t o f M r M n g a d i in t h e b i d f o r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v i c e s w i t h S A A . D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h a t is t h e c a s e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n f o r h i m – th e p r o p o s i ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : That BNP Capital agreed not to reveal the in v o lv e m e n t o f M r M n g a d i i n t h e b i d f o r tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s with SAA. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is in c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So your question across as we – if y o u s a y r e v e a l a s i f w e c o n s c i o u s ly s o r t o f h id e … C H A I R P E R S O N : D e c i d e d n o t to … ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t to r e v e a l ? Page 101 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . It comes across in that p a r t ic u l a r f a s h i o n b u t t h e e s s e n c e – I t h in k t h e tr u e f a c t s a r e M s – M r M n g a d i a t t h e e le v e n t h h o u r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: H e w i th d r e w h is – is d e ta ils i n t h e b id d o c u m e n t a n d it is n o t l ik e – i t is B N P C a p i ta l’s d o i n g . I t is – it is b a s ic a lly h e ju s t s e n t u s i n f o r m a t io n t o o n e o f u s g u y s t o s a y c a n y o u t a k e m e o u t a n d r e p l a c e m e w i t h th is p a r t i c u l a r in d iv i d u a l … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d i t is n o t li k e w e – w e a c t u a ll y m a d e a c o n s c i o u s d e c is io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l y o u w e r e a s k e d t o r e m o v e e v e r y r e f e r e n c e t o h i m i n th e b id d o c u m e n t a n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t y o u r e m p l o y e e – Mr Moyo – agreed to that. Correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Th e s e c o n d p r o p o s i ti o n is th a t B n P C a p it a l’s b i d w a s n o t c o m p li a n t w i t h t h e t e r m s o f t h e t e n d e r a n d a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o u g h t n o t to h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d th e c o n tr a c t. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s n o t tr u e . S o a ll o f t h e r e s p e c ts th a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h y e s t e r d a y o f t h e n o n - c o m p l ia n c e , t h e n o n - p r o v i s i o n o f t h e c o n s o l id a t e d B B B E E c e r ti fi c a t e , t h e n o n - p r o v is io n o f t h e f in a n c ia l s c h e d u l e , t h e p r i c i n g s c h e d u l e th e d a te o f s u b m i s s i o n , t h e n o n - p r o v i s i o n o f a J V o r c o n s o r ti u m a g r e e m e n t a s y o u r e g a r d t h a t a s n o t r e n d e r i n g y o u r b id n o n - c o m p li a n t? Page 102 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I d o n ’t a g r e e C h a ir, c a n I explain why? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , a s f a r a s th e J V o r th e c o n s o r ti u m is c o n c e r n e d , I u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e M s H o f m e y r c o m e s fr o m o u r s w a s n o t i n c o r p o r a t e d i t w a s a l o o s e c o n s o r ti u m w h e r e t h e r e ’s a le a d b i d d e r w h ic h w a s u s a n d I n l i n e Tr a d i n g w a s j u s t a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r. S o a s f a r a s t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts a r e c o n c e r n e d , y o u c a n n o t a c tu a l ly h a v e a c o n s o li d a t e d b id c e r t if ic a te f o r s u c h , s o w e ’v e – a c tu a lly w e ’v e d o n e 10 s o m a n y o f t h e s e a r r a n g e m e n ts e v e n – to d a t e w e d o n ’t h a v e , t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t y o u h a v e y o u a c t u a l ly s u b m i t s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t a t i o n , e s p e c i a l ly w i th a s u b - c o n t r a c t o r h e n c e w e s u b m i t te d a t a x c le a r a n c e c e r t if ic a te a n d a B E E s o t h a t’s t h e r e q u ir e m e n t b u t a s f a r a s – i f i t’s a c o n s o l id a t e d – if i t ’s a c o n s o r ti u m in c o r p o r a t e d i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r f a s h i o n , t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : there, did you say S o r r y Mr M a h l a n g u ju s t a f o ll o w - u p q u e s t io n that you submitted I n l in e Tr a d in g ’s BBBEE c e r t if ic a te ? CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR DANIEL S w i tc h o n th e m ic . PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: What I’m saying is … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o j u s t th e q u e s t i o n w a s , d i d y o u s u b m it I n l in e Tr a d in g ’s B B B E E c e r ti f ic a t e w i t h t h e b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I ’ d l ik e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t, t h a t was submitted. Page 103 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’ d l ik e to u n d e r s t a n d o r d i d y o u s u b m i t i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I c a n ’ t te ll w h a t w a s I n l in e in f o r m a ti o n th a t w a s s u b m i t t e d b u t I k n o w c e r ta i n i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t is c r i ti c a l to the b id as per our arrangement was a c t u a ll y s u b m i tt e d … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t I t h e n n e e d t o p u t i t t o y o u , t h a t n o B B B E E c e r ti f ic a t e o f I n l in e Tr a d in g w a s s u b m i t t e d w i t h th e b i d , d o y o u h a v e a b a s is t o d is p u t e th a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 I c a n ’ t te ll n o w C h a ir, w h a t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I s y o u r p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r, a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t i t w a s s u b m i t te d b u t y o u w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t y o u r t e a m w o u l d h a v e s u b m i tt e d i t , is t h a t y o u r p o s i ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w, b a s ic a lly w h a t I ’ m tr y i n g t o c l a r if y h e r e is t h a t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s fa r a s t h e – o u r a r r a n g e m e n t is c o n c e r n e d w e to o k th e le a d , s o w e s u b m i t te d a ll o u r in f o r m a ti o n a s f a r a s t h e le a d i s c o n c e r n e d s o w h e n y o u ’ v e g o t a s u b c o n tr a c to r y o u ju s t s u b m i t m i n i m a l i n f o r m a ti o n . S o I t h i n k i t w a s a ls o 20 a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f S A A a s f a r a s th a t s t r u c t u r e w a s c o n c e r n e d , s o i t w a s n o t a c c o r d i n g to u s t o a c tu a lly d e te r m i n e b u t i t w a s a s tr u c tu r e t h a t is , y o u k n o w, c u r r e n tly b e i n g u s e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id y o u k n o w w h a t S A A w a s u n d e r s ta n d i n g a b o u t t h o s e c l a u s e s i n i t ’s b i d s u b m is s io n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b e c a u s e i f t h a t w a s n o t Page 104 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 u n d e r s t a n d in g th e y could have a c t u a l ly d is q u a l i fi e d us as per y o u r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l t h a t ’s p r e c i s e ly w h a t I ’ m a s k i n g M r M a h l a n g u w h e t h e r th e s e d e f ic ie n c ie s i n y o u r b i d s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e r e s u l t e d i n y o u r d i s q u a l i fic a ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s n o t tr u e . O k a y, t h e n e x t o n e , Mr M a h l a n g u i s t h a t y o u d i d n o t c h e c k t h e f a c t u a l a c c u r a c y o f w h a t w a s c o n ta i n e d in l e t te r s th a t w e r e d r a ft e d fo r y o u b y Mr M n g a d i , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o m e , n o t a ll o f t h e m y e s , t h a t ’s n o t a b l a n k e t s t a te m e n t , I m e a n s o m e o f t h e m y e s w e d i d b u t s o m e w e c o u ld n ’ t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c o u l d n ’ t o r y o u d id n ’t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o m e , fo r o b v io u s r e a s o n s th a t h e w a s a c t u a ll y in t e r a c ti n g w i t h G r is s a g a n d o t h e r p a r ti e s s o w e j u s t a s s u m e d th a t w h a te v e r t h a t w a s b r i n g i n g to t h e p a r ty w a s t h e g o s p e l tr u th . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e f o u r t h p r o p o s i ti o n is t h a t y o u h a v e – a s m a t t e r s s t a n d c u r r e n t ly, n o r e c o r d o f h a v i n g s e n t t h a t l e t te r o f t h e 1 3 t h 20 o f M a y t o S A A w h ic h d e a l t w i t h t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f y o u r F F S P l ic e n c e i s that correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , Mr M a h l a n g u t h e f i f th p r o p o s i t io n is t h a t y o u m o t iv a te d fo r a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e f r o m S A A o n th e b a s is o f f a c ts t h a t y o u h a d n o t v e r i fi e d a n d y o u d id n o t h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f , Page 105 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 do you accept that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C h a ir I t h i n k w h a t w e m u s t b e c a r e fu l o f i t ’s m is in f o r m a t io n y e s , i n a s e n s e t h a t w e m u s t n ’ t g i v e p u b li c in f o r m a ti o n th a t w e a c t u a l ly s e n d i n f o r m a ti o n t o S A A a n d t h e n t h a t in f o r m a ti o n w a s n o t v e r i fi e d b e c a u s e w e h a d p a r t n e r s in t h e s t r u c t u r e t h a t w e r e a c t u a ll y r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h a t . S o I d o n ’ t w a n t t o s a y I d i d n ’ t w h e n m y p a r t n e r s a c t u a ll y d i d v e r i fy t h a t in f o r m a t io n , s o – n o w I ’ m p u t t in g m y s e l f in a p o s i t io n t h a t a c t u a l ly s e n d i n g t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n t o S A A w i t h o u t m e a c tu a l ly n o t v e r i fy i n g t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u m o tiv a t e d f o r th e r e d u c t i o n o f t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e to 5 0 m il li o n – b e l o w 5 0 m i ll io n , a p o lo g ie s , y o u d i d s o a g a i n o n t h e b a s i s o f f a c ts th a t y o u h a d n o t y o u r s e l f v e r if i e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Basis on fa c ts of our p a r t n e r s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t y o u y o u r s e l f h a d n o t v e r i fi e d , c o r r e c t ? CHAIRPERSON: I t a m o u n ts t o - i t s e e m s t o m e w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g , n a m e ly y o u to o k w h a t M r M n g a d i g a v e y o u a n d a s s u m e d t h a t to b e tr u e b u t y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w f o r s u r e th a t i t w a s t r u e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, t h o s e a r e t h e p r o p o s i ti o n s I w a n t e d t o p u t to M r M a h l a n g u f o r h i s c o m m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M a h la n g u f o r c o m in g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e , i f a n e e d a r is e s f o r y o u to b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k y o u w i ll b e a s k e d to c o m e b a c k b u t f o r n o w y o u a r e e x c u s e d . Page 106 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s c a n I j u s t h a v e a m i n u te C h a ir, ju s t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I know I’m running out of time, p r o b a b ly m y f li g h t is g o i n g t o l e a v e m e , I j u s t n e e d t o m a k e s o m e a r r a n g e m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s o r r y f o r t h a t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I ’ d lik e t o t h a n k t h is C o m m i s s i o n f o r g i v i n g u s th is o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m e – I k n o w i ts b e e n a 10 d a u n ti n g t a s k y o u k n o w, I ’v e b a s ic a l ly l o s t ti m e , l o s t r e s o u r c e s b e c a u s e y o u c a n s e e t h e s e g e n t l e m e n a r e h e r e th e y d o n ’ t c o m e c h e a p a n d a ls o t o ( i n d is t in c t ) t h is i n fo r m a ti o n f r o m d i ff e r e n t s o u r c e s w h ic h h ir e t e c h n ic ia n s to g o o n to a l a p t o p , s e a r c h t h is , s e a r c h t h a t s o i t ’s b e e n a s tr u g g l e b u t I t h in k w e d i d th a t fo r o b v io u s r e a s o n s , I t h i n k t o j u s t c le a r our name number one and number two to say I think even the evidence t h a t h a s a c t u a ll y b e e n p u t f o r w a r d h e r e w e r e a lis e t h a t a c t u a l ly t h e r e w e r e b i g g e r ( in d is ti n c t) a t p l a y a n d w e f i n d o u r s e lv e s , y o u k n o w, s o r t o f in b e t w e e n , y o u k n o w, b e i n g s o r t o f s c a p e g o a t s f o r s o m e o f t h e m a n d t o s a y, y o u k n o w – I t h in k a ls o w h a t’s r e v e a l in g to m e a n d i f t h is w a s 20 s o m e o f t h e te s ti m o n i e s t h a t w e r e a c tu a l ly s h a r e d b e fo r e u s , a n d e s p e c i a l ly w i t h a l l t h e p e o p l e th a t g iv e s t e s t i m o n y. Fir s t ly I ’ll s ta r t w it h M s S t i m p e l , I t h i n k th e t e s t i m o n y t h a t s h e g a v e , i t w a s a g o o d o n e , t w o b u t i f o n e l o o k a t it d e e p e r o b v i o u s ly th e r e o t h e r i n t e r e s t, y e s a n d o t h e r in t e r e s t w a s , o b v io u s ly a s f a r a s t h is s p a c e o f o u r s p a c e i s c o n c e r n e d s h e – h e r i n t e r e s t w a s j u s t t o a c t u a lly r in g - f e n c e t h is o p p o r t u n i ty o f Page 107 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 f u n d r a is i n g f o r S A A t o o n l y t h e b i g b a n k s a n d t h o s e b i g b a n k s w o u ld b e g iv e n t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o c o m p e t e a m o n g s t t h e ms e lv e s s o i n a n y w a y t h e b i g b a n k s t h e m s e lv e s b a s i c a lly c a p t u r e d S A A o n e . Tw o , s h e a c t u a ll y e x c l u d e d , y o u k n o w, c o m p a n i e s l ik e u s a s f a r a s t h e b l a c k c o m p a n i e s a r e c o n c e r n e d , th e u p a n d c o m i n g – i t ’s v e r y d i ff ic u l t a s a b l a c k c o m p a n y li k e B n P C a p i t a l o r e v e n o t h e r c o m p a n i e s to a c tu a lly p e n e tr a t e t h is p a r ti c u l a r s p a c e . Ye s a n d f o r p e o p le I p u b li c s e c t o r s t o a c t u a ll y i n a w a y p r o u d o u t t h e b l a c k f ie ld s l ik e u s i t ’s w o r r i s o m e because…(intervention). 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I a l lo w e d y o u t o m a k e a f e w r e m a r k s b u t w e h a v e to b e c a r e fu l i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e a tt a c k i n g a n y s p e c i fic p e o p l e w h o h a v e n o t b e e n t o ld y o u w o u l d b e h e r e t o a t t a c k t h e m w h o m i g h t n o t g e t a c h a n c e t o c h a ll e n g e y o u a n d c r o s s - e x a m in e y o u o n t h e s t a te m e n ts th a t y o u m a k e s o w e m u s t s t a y w i th in th e b o u n d s o f j u s t b r i e f r e m a r k s y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e w i t h o u t a tt a c k i n g a n y p a r tic u l a r person. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h a n k s C h a ir, t h a t ’s w h a t I’ m d o i n g n o w, j u s t t w o m i n u t e s , y e s a n d m y w o r r y is u n f o r tu n a te ly B n P C a p it a l i s th e o n ly c o m p a n y t h a t i s h e r e , t h a t i s p u t b e f o r e t h is 20 C o m m i s s i o n , t h a t i s i n a w a y d is g r a c e d y o u k n o w, f o r … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t i s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D i s g r a c e d y e s f o r ( i n d is t in c t ) r e a s o n s b e c a u s e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll t h a t m i g h t c o m e a c r o s s a s i f y o u ’ r e s u g g e s ti n g t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is d is g r a c in g B n P. Page 108 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C a n I p u t i t t o y o u C h a ir, t h a t u n f o r t u n a t e ly w h e n o n e a p p e a r s b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n t h e r e ’s a lr e a d y a s ti g m a , i t d o e s n ’ t m a tt e r w h e t h e r y o u ’v e d o n e b a d o r g o o d b u t t h e r e ’s a lr e a d y a s t ig m a . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll i t m a y b e th a t d i ff e r e n t p e r s o n s m i g h t lo o k a t s o m e b o d y a p p e a r i n g h e r e d i ffe r e n tl y, s o m e w o u l d s a y t h is i s a p e r s o n w h o is p a tr i o ti c a n d w a n t s t o h e lp t h e C o m m is s i o n h e l d th e c o u n tr y, w a n ts t o c o m e a n d t e ll t h e c o u n t r y w h a t t h e y k n o w a b o u t m a t t e r s t h a t m a y f a l l u n d e r S t a t e C a p t u r e a n d c o r r u p ti o n a n d is a g o o d p e r s o n a n d 10 is c o o p e r a t i n g w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Tw o m i n u t e s . Yo u a r e ta k i n g l o n g . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: A g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir. Just two minutes. S t r i c t ly t w o m i n u t e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , I t h in k a s f a r a s - le t m e ju s t w r a p u p o n t h e i s s u e t h a t B n P C a p i t a l u n fo r t u n a t e ly is t h e o n ly c o m p a n y t h a t i s h e r e , th e r e is a c o m p a n y c a ll e d S e a C r e s t t h a t d i d 20 a c t u a ll y – h a d n o t h in g w a s a s h e lf c o m p a n y i t h a d n o c r e d e n t ia ls w h a ts o e v e r b u t w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty ? CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h c o m p a n y a r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: SeaCrest, it was mentioned. Ye s b u t w h y y o u g o in g t h e r e , I’ v e j u s t s a i d t o y o u , d o n ’t a t ta c k o t h e r p e r s o n s o r c o m p a n i e s b e c a u s e o n e , th a t w a s n o t i n Page 109 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n n o ti f i e d t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o a t t a c k t h e m h e r e , j u s t l ik e y o u w i ll w a n t e v e r y o n e to b e f a i r t o y o u w e m u s t b e f a ir – y o u m u s t a l s o b e f a ir t o o t h e r p e o p l e . Yo u r t w o m in u t e s is a l m o s t u p . Tw o s e n t e n c e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , w i t h Mr v a n d e r M e r w e , P i e t v a n d e r M e r w e , l it e r a lly I h a v e n ’ t m e t h i m , w e t h e n s p o k e n t o e a c h o th e r a n d I t h i n k w h a t’s w o r r is o m e t h a t I th in k t h e C o m m is s i o n m u s t f o ll o w u p w i t h h i m is w h y is h e s o h e ll b e n t t o p r o t e c t Mr M n g a d i , b e c a u s e h e s a y s fr o m h i s s ta t e m e n t h e s a y s h e ’s n e v e r a c t u a ll y – h e 10 k n o w s Mr M n g a d i b u t h e d o e s n ’t k n o w w h a t Mr M n g a d i d o e s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll i f y o u w a n t t o c h a l le n g e a n y th i n g t h a t M r v a n d e r M e r w e s a id i n t h i s C o m m i s s io n , y o u r la w y e r s w il l a d v is e y o u w h a t t o d o , o k a y. L e t ’s s t o p a t t h a t , w e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t – t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t tw o , w e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e a r e … CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d w e a r e r e a d y to p r o c e e d w i t h our next witness. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o is M s – D o c t o r D a h w a . Just one or two p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts in a d v a n c e o f s w e a r i n g i n t h e w it n e s s i f I m a y ? I t is i m p o r t a n t f o r u s to p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e w e e k w e Page 110 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e c e i v e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m M s M e y e n e ’s l a w y e r s in d i c a t in g t h a t s h e in t e n d s t o a p p ly to c r o s s - e x a m in e D o c t o r D a h w a a n d a ls o t h e w i tn e s s w h o w il l b e a p p e a r in g o n M o n d a y Ms M p s h e b u t a s m a t te r s c u r r e n tl y s t a n d w e h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y s u c h a p p lic a ti o n w e w e r e s i m p ly n o t i fi e d in a l e t te r t h a t t h a t w o u l d b e c o m in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir it d o e s m e a n u n fo r t u n a t e l y th a t fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f D o c to r D a h w a ’s e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d M s M p s h e ’s M o n d a y w e a r e n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o p u t t h e a l t e r n a tiv e v e r s i o n t o e i t h e r o f t h e 10 w i t n e s s e s fo r c o m m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d in th e p a s t w h e n t h a t i s f e a s i b l e i t d o e s a i d th e p r o c e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t if th e a p p li c a ti o n c o m e s i n l a te r th a n t h e f o u r t e e n d a y s w e w i ll e x p e c t t o s e e a c o n d o n a ti o n a p p l ic a ti o n a n d th a t w i ll b e p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u fo r d e te r m in a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d t h e n t h e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t C h a ir i f w e c o u l d ju s t e n t e r D o c to r D a h w a ’s a ff i d a v it a s E x h ib i t D D 1 6 f o r t h e record. CHAIRPERSON: T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n in g th e s t a te m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t o f D o c t o r D a h w a is g o in g to b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t D D 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d i f I c o u ld t h e n a s k f o r th e w i t n e s s to b e s w o r n i n ? Page 111 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M a s i m b a P h il li p D a h w a . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . 10 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e tr u th . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d o . REGISTRAR: I f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e God. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o h e lp m e G o d . REGISTRAR: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o c t o r j u s t to o r i e n t a te y o u . On the witness t a b le in fr o n t o f y o u y o u h a v e a l a r g e le v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n in g y o u r 20 a ffi d a v i t a n d i t s a n n e x u r e s a n d th e n I h a v e a l s o r e q u e s te d t h a t o n e o th e r f il e b e p l a c e d b e fo r e y o u . I t is t h e fi le c o n t a i n i n g th e t h i r d p a r t o f M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e a n d t h a t is t o b e f o u n d in Ex h ib i t D D 1 [c ] b u t I w i ll c o m e t o t h a t l a t e r o n in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o c t o r D a h w a y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d a n a ff id a v i t t o Page 112 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e c o m m is s i o n c o u l d y o u t u r n u p p a g e 1 o f th e E x h i b i t D D 1 6 a n d a s I h a v e i t th e a ffi d a v i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 1 a n d e n d s a t p a g e 2 2 . C a n y o u t a k e a l o o k a t t h a t a n d c o n f ir m t h a t t h a t is t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u p r o v i d e d t o th e c o m m i s s i o n ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o s t a r t s i m p ly w i t h y o u r b a c k g r o u n d w h ic h w e p i c k u p a t p a g e 1 f r o m p a r a g r a p h 3 . Yo u c o m m e n c e t h e r e w i t h y o u r q u a l i fi c a t io n s D o c t o r D a h w a . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a k e th e c o m m i s s i o n th r o u g h w h a t t h o s e a r e ? 10 DR MASIMBA PHILLIP D A H WA : Thank you. My a c a d e m ic q u a li fi c a t io n s C h a ir a D o c t o r o f B u s i n e s s A d m i n i s t r a t io n s p e c ia li s i n g i n lo g i s t ic s , M a s te r s i n B u s i n e s s in I n te r n a t io n a l B u s in e s s M a n a g e m e n t , P o s t G r a d u a t e D ip l o m a i n B u s i n e s s M a n a g e m e n t , B A H o n o u r s i n B u s i n e s s S t u d i e s a n d a G r a d u a t e D i p l o m a i n P u r c h a s i n g a n d S u p p l y. M y s e c o n d s e t o f c r e d e n ti a ls C h a ir p e r ta in t o my i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t a n d e s ta b l is h m e n t a n d p r o fe s s i o n a liz a ti o n o f s u p p ly c h a in a n d p r o c u r e m e n t th a t is a c r o s s A fr ic a . D u r i n g m y s t in t a s a C h a r t e r e d I n s ti t u te o f P u r c h a s i n g a n d S u p p ly C o u n s e l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e fo r A fr ic a a n d l a t e r a s h e a d o f r e g i o n a l d e v e lo p m e n t a n d i n te g r a ti o n o f C h a r t e r e d 20 I n s ti t u te o f P u r c h a s i n g a n d S u p p ly w h i c h g a v e m e a w i d e i n v o l v e m e n t t o w a r d t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e p r o f e s s i o n in A fr ic a . And as such I [i n d is t in c t] v a r i o u s a w a r d s b y G lo b a l P r o f e s s io n a l b o d i e s i n m y a r e a o f d is c i p l i n e r e s u l te d in m e b e in g c o n fe r r e d w i t h th e C h a r t e r e d F e ll o w o f C h a r t e r e d I n s ti t u t e o f L o g i s t ic s a n d Tr a n s p o r t C h a r t e r e d Fe ll o w o f C h a r t e r e d I n s t i tu t e o f P u r c h a s in g a n d S u p p ly, F e l lo w o f I n s ti t u t e o f Page 113 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 O p e r a t io n s M a n a g e m e n t , S p e c i a l is t F e l l o w o f I n s t i tu t e o f R is k a n d Safety Management and Fe ll o w of I n s t it u t e of Leadership and M a n a g e m e n t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u D o c t o r D a h w a a n d i f y o u t u r n o v e r to p a g e 2 a t p a r a g r a p h 5 o n p a g e 2 a t t h e b o tt o m y o u t a l k a b o u t a t w e n t y y e a r s ’ w o r t h o f e x p e r ie n c e th a t y o u h a v e h a d i n o r g a n is a ti o n s a n d w it h a p a r t ic u l a r e m p h a s is o n p r o c u r e m e n t . C o u ld y o u p le a s e t e ll u s w h a t t h a t e x p e r i e n c e c o m p r is e s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I d e a ll y m y e x p e r i e n c e h a s b e e n i n d ir e c t in g , l e a d in g a n d m a n a g i n g v a r i o u s a r e a s o f p r o c u r e m e n t a n d s u p p ly c h a i n fo r v a r io u s s e c t o r s o f i n d u s tr y in c l u d i n g a v ia t io n , r e ta il , fi n a n c i a l a n d b a n k i n g a s w e ll i n tr a n s p o r t a n d d is t r i b u t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d th e n t o b r in g y o u t o t h e fo c u s o f t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e . W h e n d id y o u s t a r t a t S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : In A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n w h a t p o s i ti o n d id y o u b e g i n a t S A A ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It w a s i n i ti a lly a s C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r f o r t h r e e m o n t h s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e f ir s t t h r e e m o n th s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Because of my contribution towards t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e l o n g t e r m t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y I t h e n e a r n e d m y s e l f a f u r th e r s i x m o n th s b y m e r i t o f t h e c o n tr i b u t io n t h a t I h a d made. Page 114 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o w e n o w a t n i n e m o n t h s ’ w o r t h a s I h a v e it a s y o u r ti m e a t S A A d i d y o u r e m a i n a ft e r t h a t a n d i f s o o n w h a t b a s is ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Thank you. W h a t y o u fi n d is d u r i n g t h e n i n e m o n t h s s ti n t I d id a d d r e s s a s p e c i f ic [i n d i s t i n c t ] b o s s t o d o w i t h t h e LT T S w h i c h fo u n d u n d e r a n n e x u r e G o f th e LT T S w h e r e t h e is s u e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t w e r e c o v e r e d . I m a d e s o m e s i g n i fic a n t in r o a d s in te r m s o f r e s tr u c t u r i n g t h e G S M s tr u c tu r e . P u t ti n g i n t h e n e c e s s a r y m is s i n g li n k s th a t c a u s e d h u g e v a l u e le a k a g e s w i th in t h e G l o b a l S u p p ly 10 C h a in . I n tr o d u c e d tr a i n i n g f o r m y te a m a s w e ll a s r e m o d e l li n g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t g o v e r n a n c e s tr u c tu r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t I w a n t t o g e t tw o a c r o n y m s c l e a r t h e y w i ll b e f a m il ia r t o y o u b u t t h e y m a y n o t b e f a m ili a r t o e v e r y o n e e ls e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e f e r t o t h e LT T S w h a t is th a t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e LT T S t h a t is t h e L o n g Te r m Tu r n a r o u n d S t r a t e g y w h ic h w a s p u t i n p l a c e b y S o u t h A fr ic a n Ai r w a y s a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u w e w i l l l o o k a t t h a t in s o f a r a s it is 20 r e l e v a n t t o p r o c u r e m e n t i s s u e s a t S A A in d u e c o u r s e b u t y o u a l s o r e fe r r e d t o G S M , w h a t i s G S M ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Unit. G S M i s G l o b a l S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t T h i s is t h e u n i t o f S A A r e s p o n s i b le f o r p r o c u r e m e n t a n d s u p p l y chain management. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u l d y o u r r o le a s C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t Page 115 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 O ff ic e r h a v e b e e n t o h e a d t h a t u n i t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. If you are on page 3 of your a ffi d a v i t y o u w i ll s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u t a lk a b o u t th e e x te n s i o n o f y o u r c o n t r a c t a f te r t h a t s i x m o n t h p e r i o d . W h a t w a s th a t e x te n s i o n period? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y i n p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u ta lk f ir s t a b o u t y o u r t h r e e m o n t h c o n t r a c t p e r i o d , th e n y o u ta lk a b o u t i t b e i n g e x t e n d e d f o r a 10 f u r th e r s i x m o n t h s a n d th e n in th e l a s t s e n t e n c e y o u t a l k a b o u t a y e t f u r th e r e x te n s io n fo r a p e r io d . W h a t w a s t h e p e r io d o f th e s e c o n d extension? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It w a s tw o y e a r s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n w o u l d th a t h a v e e n d e d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e ti m e i n 2017. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r e m a i n a t S A A u n t il 2 0 1 7 ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 W e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s o f y o u r d e p a r t u r e in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e D o c t o r D a h w a . T h a n k y o u . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u j u s t t e ll u s i n t e r m s o f w h a t p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d b e f o r e y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t ? r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e s s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. Page 116 of 279 Did you go through a 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s t h a t b e f o r e t h e in i ti a l a p p o i n t m e n t o r in r e l a ti o n t o t h e v a r io u s e x t e n s i o n s ? DR MASIMBA PHILLIP D A H WA : That was before the i n i t ia l a p p o i n t m e n t a n d a l s o f o r t h e s e c o n d a p p o in t m e n t I w e n t f o r s o m e f u r th e r s e l e c t io n a s w e ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . D o c t o r D a h w a a t p a g e 3 p a r a g r a p h 8 y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e d u t i e s t h a t y o u h a d a s C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ffic e r o f S A A . C a n y o u te ll u s i n s u m m a r y w h a t t h o s e m a i n d u ti e s w e r e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. At the time of jo in i n g S A A m y j o b b r ie f w a s to m a k e s u r e t h a t G S M w h ic h i s t h e G l o b a l S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t U n it h e l p e d th e o r g a n is a t i o n t o d e li v e r o n i ts lo n g t e r m t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y. S o i d e a ll y m y j o b w a s t o e n s u r e th a t t h e r e w a s t h a t a li g n m e n t a n d a l s o t o d e l iv e r o n to t h e s p e c i fi c is s u e s t h a t w e r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e LT T S t h a t p e r ta i n e d to s u p p l y c h a in t o a d v is e t h e v a r i o u s s ta k e h o l d e r s o n v a r i o u s t e c h n ic a l is s u e s p e r ta in i n g t o p r o c u r e m e n t in s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t a s w e ll a s t o m a n a g e t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a t io n s o f th e fu n c t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: One second. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o c t o r D a h w a i f w e t h e n g o t o p a g e 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Yo u w i ll s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o n t h a t p a g e y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e k e y t h e m e s o f th e l o n g t e r m tu r n a r o u n d s t r a t e g y a n d w h a t t h e y h a d i d e n t i fi e d a s th e c r i ti c a l s u c c e s s f a c t o r s f o r G lo b a l Page 117 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t. C o u l d y o u in d i c a t e t o u s w h a t th o s e s u c c e s s f a c to r s w e r e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. To p o f t h e l is t w a s t h e i s s u e o f c o s t c o m p r e s s i o n b e c a u s e if y o u g o t h r o u g h t h e LT T S d o c u m e n t y o u w i ll f in d t h a t t h e a ir li n e w a s b le e d i n g b a d l y b e c a u s e o f b a d c o n tr a c ti n g a n d th e c o s t s o f r u n n i n g t h e b u s in e s s w a s j u s t to o h i g h so that was aspect number 1. T h e n t h e s t r e n g t h e n i n g o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t g o v e r n a n c e w a s a l s o q u i te t o p o n th e a g e n d a b e c a u s e o f the various weaknesses that prevailed within the GSM procurement 10 p r a c ti c e s . T h e r e w e r e is s u e s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e a d d r e s s e d . T h e n t h e r e w a s a ls o is s u e s to d o w i t h p e o p l e i n i ti a ti v e s a s w e l l a s t h e ir d e v e l o p m e n t a n d a b il it y t o s u p p o r t th e o p e r a t io n s o f G S M in g e n e r a l . T h e n w a s a ls o t h e is s u e o f p r e fe r e n ti a l p r o c u r e m e n t s p e n d s w h ic h i s p r o m o ti n g th e d e v e l o p m e n t o f s m a ll t o m e d i u m e n te r p r is e s a s w e ll a s t h e B E E c o m p a n ie s . A n d a ls o w a s t h e i s s u e o f i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e S A P, t h e S A A P p r o c u r e m e n t s y s te m w h ic h h a d b e e n o u ts ta n d i n g a n d n o t i m p l e m e n te d fo r a v e r y lo n g ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o c to r D a h w a y o u m e n t io n e d th e n e e d I t h i n k i t was 20 the second key success fa c to r being s tr e n g t h e n in g the p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d a s I h a v e it l a t e r i n t h e a ffi d a v it y o u d e ta il w h a t s o m e o f th e w e a k n e s s e s w e r e t h a t y o u f o u n d i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t g o v e r n a n c e s e c t o r w h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t S A A . Yo u w il l f i n d t h a t o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 5 a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n th a t p a g e . C o u l d y o u ta k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t s o m e o f th o s e w e a k n e s s e s w e r e t h a t y o u f o u n d w h e n y o u began at SAA in August of 2014? Page 118 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. In t e r e s ti n g ly s o m e o f t h e c a s e s C h a ir y o u h a v e – w e h e a r d o th e r w i t n e s s e s t a l k a b o u t t h e m i t is t o my s u r p r is e t h a t t h o s e w e a k n e s s e s h a v e g o n e b a c k a g a i n . F o r i n s t a n c e a t S A A w h e n I w e n t t h e r e C h a ir y o u w o u ld fi n d d o c u m e n ts ly i n g a l l o v e r, t e n d e r d o c u m e n ts a n d I t h i n k o n e w i t n e s s h e r e d id m e n ti o n t h a t t h e y w e n t in t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t u n i t a n d p ic k e d u p d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I th i n k s o m e b o d y … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h ic h w e r e n o t … 10 CHAIRPERSON: S a id th a t s o m e p e o p l e w e r e k e e p i n g t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n ts in t h e ir d r a w e r s a n d t h e y w e r e n o t – t h e y w e r e n o t p u t in one place. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Where they were secured. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e . S o w h e n I j o in e d S A A t h a t w a s r e a l ly a n i t e m o f c o n c e r n . B e c a u s e o f t h e m a i n a u d i t s f in d in g s t h a t I o b s e r v e d b e f o r e m y t i m e i t p e r t a in e d t o s o m e d o c u m e n ts g o i n g m i s s in g a n d a l l th e s e k i n d o f th in g s a n d f r o m w h e r e I w a s c o m i n g fr o m a n y p r o c u r e m e n t C h a i r m u s t b e a v a il a b l e f o r i n s p e c ti o n o f a n a u d i t a t a n y 20 ti m e d o c u m e n ts a r e n e e d e d a n d y e t d o c u m e n ts w e n t m i s s i n g b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e j u s t l e ft a l l o v e r. A n d a s s u c h I t o o k e ff o r t t o u s e – w e d id n o t h a v e m o n e y th e r e is a n o r g a n is a ti o n b u t t h e n I l o o k e d fo r q u ic k w i n s w h ic h i n c l u d e d i m p r o v i s i n g c o m i n g u p w i th a l o c k in g s y s t e m w h e r e I b o u g h t c h a in s a n d l o c k f o r e a c h a n d e v e r y c o m m o d it y m a n a g e r t o s t o r e th e i r d o c u m e n ts in a ll o c a te d s p a c e a n d w o u l d c h a i n th e m o ff fr o m Page 119 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e w o r k s p a c e s o m u c h t h a t d o c u m e n ts w o u l d b e k e p t s a fe a n d a s a n d w h e n th e y w e r e n e e d e d f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s w e w o u ld f in d th e m . A n d a ls o y o u w o u l d fi n d fo r i n s t a n c e r e c e i p t o f t e n d e r s w a s j u s t i n s h a m b l e s . O n e p e r s o n w o u l d g o a n d r e c e i v e t e n d e r s a n d a t t i m e s th e r e w e r e i s s u e s a n d p r o b l e m s w h e r e y o u fi n d t h a t b id s c o m e i n l a t e a n d t o tr y a n d v e r if y a n d e s t a b l is h e x a c t ly w h a t w o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d i t w a s q u i te a b i g c h a ll e n g e a n d y e t w i th th e t w o lo c k e r s y s t e m w h e r e t h e r e i s d u a l c o n tr o l o f t h e t e n d e r b o x e s a n d e v e r y t h i n g w h ic h is th e s t a n d a r d p r a c ti c e in m o s t p u b li c s e c to r p r o c u r e m e n t th is w a s n o t th e c a s e b u t a ll 10 t h e s e t h i n g s C h a ir w e tr ie d t o i m p l e m e n t t o tr y a n d a d d r e s s s o m e o f th e g a p s t h a t w e r e t h e r e a t th e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u D o c t o r D a h w a . I f y o u g o s ti ll i n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t y o u w i ll s e e m id w a y d o w n y o u r e fe r e n c e a n o t h e r w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d t o b e a w e a k n e s s w h ic h is r e la t e d t o p r o c u r e m e n ts b e i n g d o n e o n th e b a s i s o f l e t te r s o f a w a r d a s o p p o s e d t o s i g n e d c o n t r a c t s . C a n y o u e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t th a t is s u e w a s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O k a y th a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k s o i t i s o n e o f t h e m a j o r, m a j o r w e a k n e s s i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r a c ti c e s a t S o u th A fr ic a n A i r w a y s w h e r e – w h e n a n R F P w e n t o u t C h a ir h a l f th e ti m e o r 20 m o s t o f t h e ti m e t h e y w o u l d g o w i th o u t th e d r a f t t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s w h e r e y o u t e lli n g t h e b i d d e r s t h a t i n t e r m s o f d e l iv e r y o f t h e s e r v ic e o r t h e g o o d s t h e s e a r e th e r e s p e c t iv e d r a f t t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s w e e x p e c t y o u t o c o n f o r m w i th . B u t th e p r a c ti c e C h a ir w a s th e a w a r d i n g t h e p r o c e s s w o u l d h a p p e n w i t h o u t s u c h k in d o f d o c u m e n ts g o i n g o u t a n d a t th e e n d o f th e p r o c e s s y o u a w a r d s o m e b o d y t h e te n d e r s a n d Page 120 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a ft e r y o u h a v e a w a r d e d t h e m th e n y o u s t a r t n e g o t ia t i n g to s a y o h o k a y n o w w h a t i s g o i n g to b e th e t e r m s a n d c o n d it i o n s a n d t o m e t h a t is a b a d p r a c ti c e b e c a u s e t h e m o m e n t y o u c o m m u n i c a t e a w a r d C h a i r a n d i n my understanding as a procurement person you have lost it. Bi d d e r s a r e n o t a t p e a c e o r b y t h e n i t w il l b e y o u r s u p p l i e r is n o t i n te r e s t e d i n fi n a l is i n g th e c o n t r a c t b e c a u s e t h a t is h o w t h e y e n d u p m a k i n g m o n e y f o r t h e ms e lv e s . As y o u k e e p o n t h e [i n d is ti n c t ] t h i n g s k e e p g o in g o n a n d y o u c o u l d s e e e v e n fr o m m y o b s e r v a ti o n th a t c o n tr a c ts w o u ld g o f o r m o n t h s y o u k n o w b e t w e e n 1 8 t o 2 4 m o n th s b e fo r e a c o n tr a c t c a n b e 10 s ig n e d b u t i n th e m e a n ti m e t h e s e r v ic e is b e i n g p r o v i d e d a n d t h is t o m e w a s a m a j o r m a j o r r is k t h a t n e e d e d u r g e n t a d d r e s s i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . O n e p o i n t I w a n t e d t o p ic k u p o n t h a t w e p a s s e d i n y o u r a ffi d a v it w a s j u s t i n te r m s o f y o u r r e p o r ti n g li n e s . W h o d i d y o u r e p o r t to d u r i n g th e ti m e t h a t y o u o c c u p i e d th e p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I r e p o r t e d t o C h i e f Fi n a n c e O ff ic e r M r W o l f M e y e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d i f y o u t h e n g o o v e r t o p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n d if y o u p ic k i t u p th e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 y o u d e t a i l 20 t h e r e s o m e o f t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d p o lic i e s t h a t y o u a tt e m p t e d t o p u t i n t o p l a c e w h i c h w e r e p r e s e n te d t o t h e b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s . B e fo r e w e g e t in t o t h e d e ta il s o f t h o s e p o l ic ie s t h e f i r s t t h i n g I w o u l d l ik e y o u r a s s is t a n c e o n i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e r o le o f a b o a r d o f d i r e c t o r s o f a s t a t e o w n e d e n t i ty i n p r o c u r e m e n t m a t t e r s . u n d e r s t a n d in g about how th e i r i n v o lv e m e n t Page 121 of 279 in W h a t is y o u r th o s e m a t te r s is 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 supposed work? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. My understanding o f th a t q u e s ti o n is t h e b o a r d is a n o v e r s ig h t r e s p o n s i b il it y o v e r t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n in c l u d i n g p r o c u r e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o t h e y g e t i n v o lv e d in th e d a y t o d a y p r o c u r e m e n t d e c i s i o n s i n t h e o r d in a r y c o u r s e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u r e g a r d i t a s u n u s u a l i f a b o a r d s o r board members were endeavouring to do so? 10 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s I w o u ld h a v e c o n c e r n s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u w e w il l c o m e t o s o m e o f th e d e t a i ls o f y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts a r o u n d th a t is s u e d u r i n g y o u r t i m e a t S A A b u t before we do so if you can turn over the page to page 7 of your a ffi d a v i t a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e u s t o y o u r a n n e x u r e M D 2 w h i c h y o u w i ll fi n d i n y o u r b u n d l e D D 1 6 a t p a g e 1 8 1 . It is u n d e r Ta b 2 . D o c t o r D a h w a w h a t is th is d o c u m e n t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Now it was a board paper that I p r e s e n t e d t o t h e b o a r d r e g a r d i n g th e c h a n g e s th a t I t h o u g h t n e e d e d t o b e p u t in p la c e in o r d e r t o s tr e n g t h e n S A A p r o c u r e m e n t g o v e r n a n c e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d id y o u p r e s e n t i t t o t h e b o a r d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It w a s a r o u n d th e 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d D o c t o r D a h w a a s s i s t u s w h a t w e r e th e p r i n c i p l e fe a t u r e s o f th is g o v e r n a n c e s tr u c t u r e th a t y o u w a n t e d to p u t i n place? Page 122 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e k e y t h i n g s t h a t I p r e s e n t e d i n th is d o c u m e n t C h a i r in i ti a l ly i t w a s t h e S E ’s o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s t r u c t u r e s a t S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s w h e r e i d e a ll y t h e r e w e r e tw o c o m m i t t e e s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e p r o c u r e m e n t . T h e fir s t o n e w a s k n o w n a s th e c r o s s function o r s o u r c i n g t e a m w h ic h was mandated with th e whole p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s th a t is fr o m o r i g i n o f te n d e r s p e c i fic a ti o n r i g h t u p t o a w a r d o r r e c o m m e n d a t io n f o r a w a r d w h ic h w o u l d th e n g o t o v a r io u s le v e ls o f a p p r o v a l p e n d i n g o n t h e a m o u n ts i n v o lv e d . I h a d p r o b le m s w i t h th a t C h a ir a n d I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s n o s e g r e g a ti o n o f d u ti e s a n d a s 10 s u c h t h e r e w a s a h u g e s c o p e f o r th e p r o c e s s e s b e in g s e c u r e d t o w a r d s c e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a ls o r p r e f e r r e d s u p p l i e r s o r a n y t h in g o f t h e f o r m a n d a ls o I w a n t e d t h e r e t o b e th e is s u e o f m a k in g s u r e t h a t w e w e r e g e t ti n g b e s t v a l u e f o r m o n e y a s t h e r e w e r e – t h e r e w e r e c h e c k s a n d b a la n c e s I w o u ld s a y to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h i n g s w e r e d o n e a b o v e b o a r d . A n d t h e s e c o n d c o m m i t t e e w a s t h e b i d a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e w h ic h w a s m o r e lik e r e s p o n s ib le f o r j u s t r e v i e w i n g w h a t t h e c r o s s f u n c ti o n a l s o u r c i n g t e a m w o u ld h a v e it d o n e . J u s t t a lk in g a b o u t th e is s u e o f c r o s s f u n c t i o n a l a n d s o u r c i n g t e a m C h a ir I l ik e d t h e s p ir i t i n w h ic h i t w a s d o n e b u t I h a d p r o b l e m s w it h t h e c r e d i b i li ty o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e . 20 By c r e d i b ili t y C h a ir I m e a n t t h e s k il l s e t s t h a t w e r e b r o u g h t to tr y a n d a s s is t i n t h e r e s p e c t iv e p r o c u r e m e n t I e x p e c t e d to s e e c e r t a i n c o m p e te n c i e s b u t t h is w a s n o t t h e c a s e . I t w a s m o r e li k e w e l l i f w e g e t p e o p l e fr o m a c r o s s t h e b u s in e s s i t m e a n s w e a r e d o i n g a p e r f e c t j o b b u t i n s ta n d a r d p r a c tic e a n d b e s t p r a c t ic e f o r t h a t m a t t e r t h a t is t h e c a s e a n d t h o s e a r e s o m e o f th e k e y t h i n g s I t h e n d e f in i te ly w a n t e d to Page 123 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a d d r e s s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n y o u r s tr u c t u r e a s y o u d e v i s e d it i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 8 4 o f y o u r b u n d l e D D 1 6 y o u w i l l s e e t h e r e a t – t o w a r d s th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e th a t a s I h a v e it y o u r e c o m m e n d e d a th r e e s t a g e t e n d e r c o m m i t t e e s y s t e m f o r c o m p e t i tiv e b i d s . H o w w a s t h a t g o in g t o w o r k th a t s y s t e m ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir. Obvious k e y t o m e w a s t h e is s u e o f s e p a r a ti o n o f r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . S o t h e f ir s t c o m m i t t e e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e c a ll e d t h e b id s p e c i f ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e . 10 T h i s is a c o m m i t t e e C h a i r t h a t i s r e s p o n s i b le f o r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e b u s i n e s s r e q u ir e m e n t a n d c r a ft i n g t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r e q u ir e m e n t a s w e l l a s p u tt i n g t o g e t h e r t h e d r a f t te r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s w h ic h I a ls o e x p e c t t o b e e v a l u a t e d a t s o m e p o in t . And the second c o m m i t t e e C h a ir w h ic h w o u l d n o t i n v o lv e o f m o s t m e m b e r s c o m i n g fr o m t h e b i d s p e c i fic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e w a s t h e b id e v a l u a t io n c o m m i t te e a n d t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s t o e v a l u a t e b i d s a s t h e y c o m e b a c k a n d a ls o t o w r i t e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s to t h e B A C in t e r m s o f t h e a w a r d i n l in e w i t h th e r e s t o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s s p e lt o u t i n th e s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t p o l ic y a n d t h e n th e th ir d c o m m i t te e w a s o b v io u s ly th e b i d 20 a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e i n i ts c u r r e n t f o r m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Doctor Dahwa you – were you f a m ili a r w i t h th e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p o l ic y o f S A A d u r i n g y o u r ti m e a s C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I k n o w I a m ju m p i n g a h e a d b u t i t is Page 124 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e l e v a n t f o r t h e q u e s ti o n s I a m g o i n g to a s k f o ll o w i n g u p . When you le f t S A A t o w a r d s th e e n d o f 2 0 1 5 w h o r e p l a c e d y o u in t h e p o s it i o n o f C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r d o y o u k n o w ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I overheard that it was Advocate L e s te r P e t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u w e h a v e h a d e v i d e n c e a b o u t M r P e t e r o c c u p y i n g t h a t r o l e t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 5 a n d e a r ly 2 0 1 6 t h a t w a s i n th e e v id e n c e o f M s N h a n ts i . But the point about the supply c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p o li c y w h ic h I w o u ld li k e t o s e e k y o u r g u i d a n c e o n 10 r e l a t e s to c l a u s e 1 4 . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p o l ic y o f S A A i n M s S t i m p e l ’s b u n d le w h i c h i s E x h i b i t D D 1 a n d it w a s th a t v o l u m e C t h a t I a s k e d t h a t y o u h a v e a v a i la b le t o y o u . And Doctor D a h w a i f y o u t u r n e a r l y o n i n th a t fi le t o p a g e 8 6 8 . D o y o u h a v e th a t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t is S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o l ic y C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h i s t h e p o l ic y t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g w i th a t y o u r t i m e – d u r i n g y o u r t i m e ? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I f y o u w il l t u r n w i th i n t h a t document to page 894. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l t h e r e a s e c ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t d e a li n g w it h c la u s e 1 4 E v a l u a t io n P r o c e s s , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? Page 125 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h ic h p o in t i s t h a t C h a ir ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s t h a t i s p o i n t 1 4 y e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. C h a i r ju s t t o l o c a te o u r s e l v e s i n t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w e h a v e r e c e i v e d p r e v i o u s ly y o u m a y r e c a ll t h a t i n t h e e v id e n c e o f M s N h a n t s i s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t a f t e r t h e S A A b o a r d h a d t a k e n t h e d e c i s i o n t o n o t a p p o in t S e a c r e s t a n d n o t a p p o in t t h e s e c o n d a l t e r n a t iv e w h ic h w a s t h e c o n s o r t iu m o f b a n k s a n d n o n e th e le s s to t a s k t h e C F O a n d a c t in g C E O t o c o n c lu d e th e tr a n s a c t io n w i t h F D C , t h e 10 Fr e e S t a te D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n . A s I h a v e M s N h a n t s i ’s e v i d e n c e s h e w e n t to t h e t h e n C P O , C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r A d v o c a t e L e s te r a n d s h e a s k e d h i m a b o u t h o w t h e y c o u l d fo ll o w a p r o c e s s t h a t w o u l d r e g u la r is e i n a s e n s e w h a t th e b o a r d h a d d o n e a t i t s 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 m e e ti n g . A n d a s I u n d e r s t o o d h e r e v i d e n c e s h e w a s t o l d t h a t r e li a n c e c o u l d b e p la c e d i n t h e S C E M p o li c y o n c l a u s e 1 4 . 4 w h ic h if w e r e a d it provides “ R e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r a b i d d e r s u b m i t s a n o ff e r c o n fo r m i n g s tr ic tl y to s p e c i fi c a t io n a l t e r n a tiv e o ff e r s m a y b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d a c c e p t e d p r o v i d e d th a t t h e 20 o th e r b i d d e r s a r e n o t p r e j u d ic e d . ” A n d C h a i r i n th e c o u r s e o f th e q u e s t i o n in g o f Ms N h a n t s i I p u t i t t o h e r t h a t t h e in t e r p r e t a ti o n s h e h a d b e e n g i v e n o f t h is c la u s e d id n o t s e e m in my v ie w t o b e a r o u t w i t h w h a t i t is tr y i n g to a c h i e v e in th is p a r t o f t h e p o l ic y a n d g iv e n t h a t w e h a v e g o t D o c t o r D a h w a w it h u s t o d a y a n d h e w a s t h e p r io r C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r I t h o u g h t it u s e f u l t o g e t h is Page 126 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 e x p e r t is e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n w h a t h i s u n d e r s t a n d in g o f c la u s e 1 4 . 4 .1 is . C o u ld y o u te ll u s D o c t o r D a h w a h o w y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t c l a u s e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir. My u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir o f a n a l t e r n a t iv e b id o ffe r i t is a b id t h a t i s s u b m i tt e d th e ti m e o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t is w i t h i n t h e c o n fi n e s t h a t is th e s ta r t a n d c l o s i n g o f a t e n d e r p r o c e s s . A n d t h i s is lik e a b i d d e r is o ffe r i n g y o u m a y b e t w o o p t io n s t o y o u r r e q u ir e m e n t . 10 T h e y a r e s a y i n g o p ti o n 1 h a s t o b e c o m p li a n t w i t h t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f m y s p e c i f ic a ti o n a n d o p t io n 2 c o u l d b e n o t i n l in e e x a c t ly w i t h m y r e q u ir e m e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e s p e c i f ic a t i o n b u t i t i s a p o s s ib l e s o l u ti o n t o m y r e q u ir e m e n t a n d i n th a t c a s e y e s t h a t i s w h a t w e c a l l a n a lt e r n a tiv e b i d b u t i t i s n o t a n y th in g t h a t c o m e s o u t s i d e o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . I f i t c o m e s o u ts id e o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s th e n t h a t t e n d a m o u n ts to a n u n s o li c i t e d b i d b u t i f i t is a n a l t e r n a t iv e b i d i t c a n n o t b e t h e f ir s t b id th a t is tr y i n g t o r e s p o n d t o m y r e q u ir e m e n t o r t o m y R F P b u t i t m u s t b e a s e c o n d o p ti o n . Because say out of argument if s o m e b o d y is t o s u b m i t a n a l t e r n a t iv e b i d a t t h e t i m e o f p r o c u r e m e n t it 20 is d e e m e d to n o n - c o m p li a n t b e c a u s e i t w i ll n o t a d d r e s s t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e R F P. B u t i n t h e c a s e th a t t h e r e a r e t w o o p t io n s th e n i t is u p t o t h e e v a l u a t in g c o m m i t t e e to c o n s id e r th e o p ti o n o r t o r e j e c t i t t h o s e t w o be allowed to do so. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a i f M s N h a n ts i h a d c o m e t o y o u i n December 2015 and asked you whether that clause could be used to Page 127 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o n s i d e r a b i d t h a t h a d n o t b e e n s u b m i t te d d u r in g th e o p e n i n g a n d c lo s i n g p e r i o d o f t h e R F P t h a t w a s u n d e r e v a l u a t i o n . W h a t w o u l d y o u h a v e s a id t o h e r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It would – it would not C h a ir a m o u n t e d t o a n a l te r n a ti v e b i d a n d i f a n y t h i n g I w o u l d r a is e c o n c e r n s r e g a r d in g t h e t i m e o f i ts s u b m i s s i o n . W h a t d o I m e a n C h a ir ? In the e v e n t h a t th is b id – t h i s u n s o li c i t e d b id is s u b m i tt e d b e f o r e w e c o n c l u d e t h e o n g o i n g p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d b y c o n c l u s io n I m e a n w e h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d t o a ll p a r t ic i p a ti n g b i d d e r s t h e o u t c o m e t h a t y o u w e r e 10 u n s u c c e s s f u l a n y th in g o f th e fo r m . I w o u l d h a v e is s u e s t o d o w i t h c o l l u s i o n C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u D r D a h w a . I f w e c o u l d t h e n m o v e to p a g e 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . T h e r e y o u h a v e a h e a d i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 8? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 8 . Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. T h e r e is a h e a d i n g o n t h a t p a g e S e t ti n g A s i d e o f 3 0 p e r c e n t o f C o n tr a c ts f o r B E E E n t it i e s . D r D a h w a w e h a v e h e a r d s o m e e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e S e t- a s i d e a p p r o a c h t h a t S A A 20 e m b a r k e d u p o n i n 2 0 1 5 b u t I w o u l d l ik e u s t o g o th r o u g h i t i n s o m e d e t a i l i n r e la t io n to y o u r k n o w le d g e o f i t a n d t h a t c o m m e n c e s a t paragraph 21 on that page. W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n e a r ly 2 0 1 5 a n d i ts l in k t o th is S e t- a s id e P o l ic y o f S A A ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. My understanding C h a ir w a s th e r e w a s a S O N A w h i c h i s S t a te o f t h e N a t io n A d d r e s s b y Page 128 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b li c o f S o u t h A fr i c a th a t i s Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a w h e r e h e m a d e a c o m m e n t t h a t t h e S t a t e O w n e d E n te r p r is e s n e e d e d to s e t- a s id e 3 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e ir s p e n t . T h a t is f o r p a r ti c u l a r g r o u p in g s o f p e o p le i n c l u d i n g t h o s e w h o w e r e p r e v i o u s ly d is a d v a n t a g e d th e y o u th a n d w o m e n a n d I c a n n o t q u i t e r e m e m b e r o ff t h e h e a d s o m e o f t h e g r o u p in g s t h e r e b u t t h a t i s w h a t i t w a s a b o u t a n d t h is is w h a t g a v e r is e t o th i s d i s c u s s io n C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I f y o u p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 o n p a g e 8 y o u h a v e – a s I s e e i t t h e r e – a q u o t e o f p r e c i s e ly w h a t w a s 10 said. T h a t a c t u a l ly d o e s f e a tu r e la t e r in s o m e o f th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a s w e l l b e tw e e n m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d . Could you just read for us w h a t is q u o te d t h e r e a s h a v in g b e e n s a id b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a in h is F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 S t a te o f th e N a t io n A d d r e s s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I r e a d C h a ir. “Government w il l set-aside 30 percent of a p p r o p r i a t e c a te g o r i e s o f s ta t e p r o c u r e m e n t f o r purchasing c o o p e r a ti v e s fr o m as s m a ll to medium w e ll as township e n t e r p r is e s , and rural enterprises.” 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a y o u g o o n in t h a t p a r a g r a p h t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o m i li t a r y v e t e r a n s a n d w h e t h e r t h e y f e a t u r e d i n t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s o r n o t . W h a t is y o u r k n o w le d g e o f t h a t ? W e r e t h e y m e n ti o n e d b y Pr e s id e n t Zu m a in t h a t s p e e c h ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o n o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h y d i d th e y th e n f e a t u r e i n S A A a n d i t s Page 129 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 procurement. Do you know? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k t h is w a s a d e c is i o n b y t h e B o a r d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f w e g o o v e r t o t h e n e x t p a g e o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t p a g e 9 . Yo u s ta r t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 3 o n t h a t p a g e e x p l a i n in g S A A’s c o m m i t m e n t t o t h e tr a n s f o r m a ti o n p r o c e s s . Can you e x p l a i n t o u s th e r o le th a t tr a n s f o r m a ti o n w a s p l a y i n g i n S A A a t t h e ti m e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A t t h e ti m e C h a ir w e h a d a u n i t w h ic h 10 w a s f o r m e d a r o u n d t h e s a m e ti m e I j o i n e d S A A w h ic h w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a g e n d a a n d M r T h a p e l o L e h a s e w a s h e a d i n g t h a t e l e m e n t b u t o b v i o u s l y b e tw e e n m e a n d h i m b y m e I m e a n G C M b e c a u s e w e w e r e th e p e o p l e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r e n g a g in g t h e s m a l l to m e d iu m enterprises. We needed to work together towards making sure that we achieved the various ta r g e ts set by th e o r g a n i s a t io n r e g a r d in g tr a n s fo r m a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o n t h a t p a g e y o u t a lk a b o u t a q u e r y o r a r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e fr o m M s K w i n a n a i n 20 J u l y 2 0 1 5 . W h a t d i d th a t r e l a te t o ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W e l l w h a t M s K w i n a n a r e q u e s te d f o r w a s a s e r i e s o f c o n t r a c t s th a t w e r e n e a r i n g e x p ir i n g . So she needed m e to p r o v i d e h e r w i th t h a t l is t a n d t h a t s h e w a n te d t o u s e i t f o r tr a n s fo r m a t i o n p u r p o s e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Let Page 130 of 279 us go to that email 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i f w e m a y. Yo u w i ll fi n d i t u n d e r Ta b 7 in y o u r b u n d l e w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 1 6 a n d w e c a n p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 2 - 1 - 4 u n d e r Ta b 7. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e h a v e i n t h is e m a i l a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t D r D a h w a is f ir s t o f a l l th e r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e t o y o u a n d t h e n y o u r r e s p o n s e t o i t . S o I w o u l d li k e t o s t a r t i n c h r o n o lo g ic a l o r d e r w i t h th e request that came through to you. As I have it that appears at page 21 - 4 . W h o is w r it i n g t h is e m a il D r D a h w a ? 10 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a o n e o f th e B o a r d Members. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d to w h o m i s i t a d d r e s s e d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It was addressed to m y s e l f, M r W o l f M e y e r a n d M s T h u li M p s h e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u c o u ld j u s t r e a d f o r u s t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h o n th a t p a g e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It r e a d s : “Dear D r M a s m ib a , SAA is serious about tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a n d a s p r o m is e d i n o u r s i g n in g 20 c e r e m o n y w i t h th e D T I o n 1 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 a n d o u r p r o m is e o n 1 2 J u n e o n S u p p ly D e v e lo p m e n t D a y w e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e t o d o t h i n g s t h e s a m e w a y a s t h e y w e r e d o n e 2 1 y e a r s a g o a n d e x p e c t d i ff e r e n t results.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n s h e g o e s o n t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o t h e Page 131 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 n e e d t o n e g o ti a te a n d w h a t d i d t h a t r e l a t e to ? Who - who was she s a y in g n e g o ti a ti o n s n e e d – n e e d e d to b e c o m m e n c e d w i th ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s S w i s s p o r t a n d B i d v e s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t c o n tr a c t s w o u l d t h a t h a v e r e l a t e d t o ? I n w h a t a r e a s o f S A A’s b u s i n e s s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h is w o u l d h a v e r e la t e d t o b a g g a g e h a n d l in g a t t h e a ir p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you and then I understand she asked y o u t o d o s o m e t h in g i n r e la t io n t o t h e t a b l e s t h a t w e s e e o n t h a t p a g e . 10 W h a t w a s s h e r e q u e s ti n g b e d o n e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S h e w a s r e q u e s t in g f o r i n f o r m a ti o n o r m a y b e t h a t I p o p u l a t e i n fo r m a ti o n i n h e r t a b le . N a m e ly fo r s e c u r i t y c o m p a n i e s s h e w a n t e d t o k n o w th e n a m e o f t h e s e c u r i ty c o m p a n y, a m o u n t o f c o n tr a c t , s t a r t d a t e , e n d d a t e , o w n e r s h i p a n d n a m e a n d c o n ta c t d e t a i ls o f k e y p e r s o n n e l fo r t h o s e r e s p e c ti v e c o n tr a c t s . S o th a t w a s t h e s a m e f o r i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n ie s a n d in s u r a n c e b r o k e r s a n d t o i le t paper companies. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d D r D a h w a if w e g o o v e r t o p a g e 2 - 1 - 7 . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u e x p la i n t o u s w h a t h a s b e e n d o n e in t h e t a b le t h a t w e s e e t h e r e o n t h a t p a g e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It h a s n o t b e e n p o p u la t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o p o p u l a te d i t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d id C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t w a s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e c a t e g o r i e s Page 132 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h a t M s K w i n a n a h a d r e q u e s t e d th e d e t a il s b e p r o v i d e d . Is that correct? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d th is r e q u e s t t o r e la t e to? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Fr o m a p r o c u r e m e n t p o i n t o f v i e w th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b i g is s u e C h a ir b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n s a n d m o s t o f t h e ti m e s y o u c a n a c tu a lly h a v e p a r ti c u la r l y in y o u r c o n t r a c t s r e g is t e r s i m il a r k i n d o f i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w o u l d t h e n t e l l y o u w h e n c o n tr a c ts a r e 10 s t a r ti n g a n d e n d i n g a n d i t w o u l d n a m e g o o d p l a n n in g i n t e r m s o f w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n a n d b y w h e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u p i c k u p t h a t p o in t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 b a c k i n p a g e 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d th a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s u m m a r is e th e r e p r e c is e ly w h a t t h e s t a tu s w a s in r e l a ti o n to c e r t a i n t e n d e r s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p a r a g r a p h is a t p a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 9 . A p o l o g i e s – p a r a g r a p h 2 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e p a r a g r a p h 2 5 y o u i n d ic a te t h e r e : “ T h e f o l lo w in g t e n d e r s w e r e a b o u t t o r e t e n d e r e d b y S A A a s th e s e w e r e a w a r d e d a r o u n d 1 J u l y 2 0 1 3 a n d e x p ir i n g a r o u n d 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 8 . ” Do you see that? Page 133 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u p r o v id e a lis t . Can you tell us w h a t th o s e c o n t r a c ts w e r e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t is fr o m p o i n t 2 5 .1 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o n t o n e , i n d e e d . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u c a n g i v e u s t h a t l is t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I beg your pardon. Th e t e n d e r a w a r d e d t o S e c u r i t a s f o r a ir p o r t s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s . ( T h e y w e r e a w a r d e d 10 a f u r th e r c o n tr a c t .) T h e t e n d e r a w a r d e d t o S w is s p o r t S o u th A f r i c a w i th a v a lu e o f 1 .2 b il li o n o r 1 2 1 9 0 3 0 – y o u k n o w th e r e w e r e s o m e is s u e s s u r r o u n d in g th e c o n tr a c ts a n d th e a w a r d a n d a ls o i n c l u d e d th e te n d e r a w a r d e d t o S w is s p o r t S o u t h A fr ic a o f PA U a n d W h e e lc h a ir v a l u e f o r 131 766 184. T h e t e n d e r a w a r d e d t o S w is s p o r t S o u th A fr ic a f o r d o c u m e n t v e r i fic a ti o n o f 2 0 6 7 4 8 2 7 a n d t h e te n d e r a w a r d e d t o B i d Ai r f o r b u s s i n g s e r v ic e s v a lu e d f o r 8 1 3 5 3 7 9 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d th e n i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e in y o u r a ff i d a v i t to p a g e 1 0 . 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e a h e a d i n g t h e r e w h ic h r e a d s “ B o a r d P r e s s u r e a n d I n t e r f e r e n c e R e la t in g t o P r o c u r e m e n t a n d 3 0 P e r c e n t S e t- a s id e f o r B E E ” . D r D a h w a c a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h is p r e s s u r e in v o lv e d t h a t y o u e x p e r ie n c e d a n d y o u d e t a il t h a t i n a n u m b e r o f p a r a g r a p h s o n t h a t p a g e b u t i f y o u w il l j u s t e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir th e Page 134 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 essence of what you experienced as pressure? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I think what then h a p p e n e d i s th e is s u e s o f t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e a s p r o n o u n c e d in t h e S O N A b e c a m e th e b i g is s u e s a t S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s . E a c h a n d e v e r y p r o c u r e m e n t C h a ir w o u l d n o t ta k e o ff e v e n – w e g o t o u r s e lv e s t a l k e d in t o th e e x t e n t o f f a il u r e t o fi n a li s e o u ts t a n d i n g c o n tr a c ts r e m e m b e r b a s e d o n t h e p r a c t ic e w h e r e th e a w a r d s w e r e is s u e d a n d n o t h in g w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d th e m a jo r is s u e s t h e r e w a s t o o p e r a ti o n a li s e t h e 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e a s p r o n o u n c e d in t h e – in t h e 10 S O N A b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n o g u i d e l in e s fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y n o r fr o m P F M A o r P FA to g u id e u s i n t e r ms o f h o w th is c o u ld b e i m p l e m e n te d b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly y o u k n o w r e g a r d l e s s o f t h e m a n y ti m e s I tr i e d t o e x p l a in to th e B o a r d t h a t i t w a s v ir t u a lly d i ff ic u l t a n d i m p o s s i b l e t o i m p l e m e n t t h e 3 0 s e t - a s i d e w i t h o u t th e p r o p e r r u l e s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s a s s t ip u la t e d a t l a w to v a r i o u s o r g a n i s a t io n s a n d it r e a lly b e c a m e a b ig c h a l le n g e a n d in s o m e in s ta n c e s a l s o C h a ir I h a d to b e g iv e n s p e c if ic c o m p a n i e s to a w a r d 3 0 p e r c e n t w h ic h e v e n m a d e t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s v e r y d i ff ic u l t b e c a u s e n o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s h a d b e e n fo ll o w e d . S o i t w a s m o r e lik e a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o s a y j u s t a w a r d th is t o 20 t h is p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y t h is a w a r d , t h i s p a r t o f a p a r tic u l a r c o n tr a c t t o t h is p a r tic u la r c o m p a n y a n d t o m a k e t h e w h o le t h i n g a w h o le lo t m o r e d i ff ic u l t C h a ir is it w a s l ik e i n t h e m id d le o f a p a r t ic u l a r p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t th e n w e p u t in t o p l a y th is w h o le 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir o f a p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e v e r y t h i n g h a s to b e s p e l t u p fr o n t a n d h a s to b e d o c u m e n t e d s o t h a t y o u a r e n o t li k e Page 135 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 b r i n g i n g b id d e r s to s u r p r is e i n t h e mi d d l e o f a p a r ti c u l a r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d t h is is w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d I h a d to g e t i n s tr u c t io n t o s a y t h i s n e e d s t o h a p p e n a n d d e s p i te t h e m a n y t i m e s I w a s t r y i n g to s a y i t is d i ffi c u l t a n d i t w il l n o t b e p o s s ib l e b e c a u s e w e w il l b e in b r e a c h a n d v i o l a ti o n o f t h e l a w t h is d i d n o t h a p p e n C h a ir. S o th is is – t h a t t h e n b e c a m e lik e t h e o r d e r o f m y d a y it w a s s o d i ffi c u l t . A n y p r o c u r e m e n t w e h a d t h e s e c h a ll e n g e s a n d ( in d is ti n c t) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e y o u to s o m e c o n te m p o r a n e o u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 5 w h e r e t h is 10 is s u e is t a k e n u p b y M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d . A s I h a v e it y o u w e r e c o p i e d o n s o m e o f t h a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d I w o u l d l ik e to s e e k y o u r a s s is t a n c e in u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a t S A A a t t h e t i m e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w i ll f in d th a t u n d e r Ta b 8 a n d i t is p a g e 2-2-3. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I h a v e h a d th e m is f o r tu n e o f tr y i n g t o d e c i p h e r t h e s e e m a i ls o v e r s o m e t i m e b e c a u s e t h e – i t i s a n e x c h a n g e o v e r th r e e p a r t s a n d y o u h a v e t o w o r k o u t w h o is s p e a k i n g a t w h a t 20 p o i n t b e c a u s e i t is id e n ti fi e d in d i ffe r e n t c o l o u r s i n th e t e x t o f th e email. S o w h a t I a m g o i n g to e n d e a v o u r t o d o i n o r d e r f o r u s b e s t to in m y s u b m is s i o n to u n d e r s t a n d t h is e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is a c t u a l ly t a k e u s t o a p a r t l a t e r i n t h e p a c k b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e y o u w i ll s e e t h e e n g a g e m e n t s t a r ts a n d D r D a h w a i f a n y a s p e c t o f m y u n d e r s t a n d in g Page 136 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 is i n c o r r e c t p l e a s e – p l e a s e i n d ic a t e t h a t b u t le t u s s t a r t a t p a g e 2 - 2 - 3 b e c a u s e th e m o s t i m p o r t a n t th in g o r k e y y o u g e t o n p a g e 2 - 3 - 3 is a b o u t w h o s e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a p p e a r s i n r e d b u t b e f o r e w e g e t th a t c o u l d y o u ju s t t e l l w h a t t h e e m a il is ? CHAIRPERSON: Well I wanted … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To f in d o u t w h e t h e r i t i s g o i n g t o i n v o l v e a n y t h i n g li k e w h a t – w h a t w e a r g u e d a b o u t w it h s o m e o f t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r s e a r li e r in t h e w e e k . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t s ta r t i n g w i t h … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s la t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A l a t e r e m a il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : In s t e a d o f a n e a r li e r ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . W e a r e g o i n g t o s ta r t w i t h th e e a r li e s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e it s e e m s t o m e t h a t is th e o n ly y o u c a n i n te ll ig i b ly k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n - th e n I a m f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ju s t h a v e t o g o la t e r i n th e p a c k to d o t h a t a n d w h a t y o u a ls o h a v e t o s e e i s w i t h i n t h e t e x t o f a n e m a il t h e r e d s ig n if i e s a c tu a lly t h e f ir s t c o m m u n ic a t i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n b l u e is a c t u a ll y … Page 137 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: The response. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e c ip i e n t ’s r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s – b u t … CHAIRPERSON: A t l e a s t i f – if in r e a d in g w e g o a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s e q u e n c e th a t h a p p e n e d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Then – then I understand (intervenes). A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I w o u ld w a n t i t in n o o t h e r w a y. S o l e t u s d o t h a t b u t i f w e c o u ld j u s t s t a r t a t 2 - 2 - 3 . Who are the people c o r r e s p o n d in g o n t h is e m a il D r D a h w a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t is M r W o l f M e y e r w h o is s e n d i n g a n e m a i l to M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a a n d M s D u d u z i le M y e n i … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is c o p y i n g r a t h e r t h a n to ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c o p y i n g t h e s e p e o p l e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s c o p y i n g . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 S u r e , t h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d c o p y i n g M s D u d u z i le M y e n i a n d s o m e – I t h i n k th is w a s a n o th e r B o a r d M e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms T h u l i M p s h e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o b u t b e fo r e M s T h u li M p s h e t h a t is a n o t h e r B o a r d M e m b e r. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e ir n a m e a n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : The Page 138 of 279 company s e c r e t a r y, 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M s R u t h K i b u u k a a n d m y s e lf . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : CHAIRPERSON: So th e people who were copied were M s D u d u z i le M y e n i a n d t h e n y o u s a y t h e n t h e r e w a s a M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d w h o s e n a m e y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t t h e n a m e s e e m s to s t a r t w i t h J o h n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t … ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t … ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r Ta m b i ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I w o u l d n o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t i t is a B o a r d M e m b e r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : E m a il a d d r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d t h e r e a ft e r i t is M s T h u li M p s h e a n d t h e n i t w a s R u t h K ib u u k a a n d t h e n y o u r s e l f. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d th is w a s o n 1 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . r ig h t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . Page 139 of 279 Is t h a t 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir a s I h a v e i t i s 9 N o v e m b e r. D i d y o u – d id y o u s a y th e 9 t h o r th e 1 9 t h ? I j u s t c o u l d n o t h e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h in k I k n o w w h a t I s a i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t ju s t – j u s t f o r c la r i fi c a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: I should have said the 9th. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e 9 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : If I s a i d th e 1 9 t h ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l t h e r e c o r d w i l l r e fl e c t t h e c l a r i f ic a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s 9 N o v e m b e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 5 ; b u t t h e n t o e n a b le u s t o r e a d t h is c h r o n o lo g ic a l ly a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is i m p o r t a n t a c t u a l ly to g e t i t r i g h t w h e r e th e d a t e i s w r i t t e n w it h th e – w i th t h e y e a r fir s t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e x t is t h e m o n t h o r t h e d a t e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h e d a y o r th e m o n t h . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 140 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s r e f le c ts 2 0 1 5 / 11 / 0 9 . I f w e th e n g o to page 2-2-6 Dr Dahwa. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : w o u ld be r e fl e c t e d W e h a d a k e y o n t h a t e a r l i e r p a g e th a t w h a t in red in this conversation w o u ld be the c o m m u n ic a ti o n o r i g i n a ll y fr o m M s K w i n a n a . Is th a t a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e s e e m a i ls ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o I w o u ld lik e u s t h e n to s t a r t a t p a g e 2 - 2 - 6 w i t h w h a t M s K w in a n a s a y s i n t h a t fir s t r e d p o r ti o n o f th e p a g e . W h a t – w h a t d i d t h a t r e l a t e to D r D a h w a ? CHAIRPERSON: Hang – hang on Ms Hofmeyr I must just make sure that … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r s t a n d – t o – t o m y e y e s th e r e d o n p a g e 2 6 – t h e r e d p a r ts a p p e a r t o b e p a r t o f th e s a m e e m a il … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t h e b l u e p a r ts … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t i s i t s u g g e s ti o n t h a t th e y a r e n o t – t h e y c a m e fr o m s o m e b o d y e ls e – d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y … C H A I R P E R S O N : B lu e a n d r e d c o m e fr o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Page 141 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s w e u n d e r s t a n d i t th e r e d i s w h a t M s K w i n a n a fir s t s e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To M r W o l f M e y e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s a c t u a l ly th e b lu e r e fl e c t e d o n t h i s p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e w h a t h e h a d d o n e i n h is e m a i l w a s h e r e s p o n d e d t o Ms K w i n a n a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s w h y it b e g i n s a t t h e p a g e : “ D e a r M s K w in a n a … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But he kept in red what her i n i t ia l c o m m u n ic a ti o n h a d s a i d t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is – i t i s d i ffi c u l t t o n a v ig a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 been able to But with the assistance of Dr Dahwa we have e s t a b l is h th a t the red is M s K w i n a n a ’s in i ti a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n b o th a b o v e i t a n d b e l o w i t o n t h e p a g e y o u s e e t h e b l u e w h ic h is a s w e u n d e r s t a n d i t Mr M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e t o v a r i o u s p o in ts t h a t s h e r a is e s . Page 142 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: A r e t h e r e lo ts o f e m a il s t h a t th e y e x c h a n g e w h ic h lo o k t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is is th e o n ly o n e f o r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h is is a c tu a l ly a n e m a il th a t f e a tu r e s in q u i te a n u m b e r o f w i tn e s s e s ’ e v i d e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e th e r e w a s q u i t e a b i t g o in g o n a t t h e ti m e . T h e e m a il a l s o h a d t w o l e t t e r s a t ta c h e d i t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e w i ll g o t o t h o s e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e v e r y i m p o r t a n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h a t I th in k mi g h t b e h e l p fu l fo r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: To m e – a t s o m e s t a g e I m i g h t f o r g e t a b o u t th is e x p l a n a t io n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And when I read them I think … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s s p e a k in g t o w h o – t o … ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I r e a d t h e m I c o u l d t e ll t h a t is fr o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e o r n o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: But I do not want to ascribe to … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: One person something that I should ascribe to Page 143 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 another one. M a y b e w e – i t m ig h t b e a g o o d i d e a to h a v e s o m e t h i n g t h a t o n e c a n p u t h e r e w h ic h h a s th a t e x p l a n a t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o te o r s o . I f I c o m e t o t h e p a g e I s e e t h e n o t e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That warns me red is from so and so …. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B lu e i s fr o m s o a n d s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d o th a t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l p u t j u s t a n o t e p a g e in t o t h e b u n d l e b e f o r e w e – p r o b a b ly a t t h e s t a r t o f t h i s t a b . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y : S o th a t i t w il l j u s t a i d t h e r e a d e r t o n a v i g a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t – w h a t w e m i g h t d o i f – i f - a n o t h e r w a y to w o u ld b e t o g e t m a y b e y e l lo w o r p in k s ti c k e r s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And just put them on the page – on the actual page w i t h a h a n d w r i t t e n n o te … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld ju s t h e l p o t h e r w i s e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d o th a t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : CHAIRPERSON: I c o u l d a s c r i b e to s o m e b o d y s o m e th in g t h a t t h e y never said … Page 144 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w r o t e j a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir e v e r y d a y y o u h e a r m u c h m o r e e v i d e n c e r e la t e d t o m a n y o t h e r t o p i c s . S o w h e n w e r e t u r n t o th is w e w i ll n e e d t o h a v e t h i s g u i d a n c e c e r t a i n ly. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o w e a r e o n p a g e 2 - 2 - 6 D r D a h w a a n d 10 t h e r e i s a r o u n d t h e m i d d l e o f th a t p a g e r e d te x t. D o y o u s e e t h a t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e h a v e c l a r i f ie d t h a t i s w h e r e M s K w in a n a is s e t t in g o u t w h a t s h e w a n te d to s a y i n h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o M r M e y e r. W h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d h e r t o b e r a is in g i n th a t fir s t p a r a g r a p h in r e d o n th a t p a g e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h in k in i ti a l ly I need to give a bit of background … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 h a p p e n in g a t S A A . To s o m e o f th e t h in g s th a t w e r e A s m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r i n m y s u b m is s i o n th a t tr a n s fo r m a t i o n b e c a m e c o r e a n d a s s u c h I w a s ta s k e d d u r i n g t h e 9 0 d a y t u r n a r o u n d p e r i o d d u r i n g th e t i m e o f M r – t h e fo r m e r M a n g o C E O – M r N ic o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N ic o B e z u i d e n h o u t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B e z u i d e n h o u t , y e s to c o m e u p w i t h a n Page 145 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 in it i a t iv e a s i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e C h a i r t o tr y a n d d r iv e f o r w a r d t h e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a g e n d a a n d a s s u c h I h a p p i ly to o k t h e ta s k C h a ir a n d w e went on some information sharing roadshows. It was across quite a n u m b e r o f t h e p r o v i n c e s w h e r e w e w e r e s h a r in g w i th th e d i ffe r e n t b i d d e r s – n o , n o n o t b i d d e r s - p o t e n ti a l s u p p li e r s t o S A A e x p l a i n i n g t o them how to do business with SAA. T h i s k i n d o f e v e n ts w e d u b b e d th e m s u p p ly e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i t s b e c a u s e w e w e r e s a y i n g le t th e s u p p li e r s m e e t t h e b u y e r s a n d c a n th e s u p p l ie r s e x p l a i n t o t h e p o t e n t ia l B E E c o m p a n ie s w h a t k in d o f 10 g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s w e r e q u ir e a s a n a i r li n e a n d a ls o to s a y h o w b e s t c a n t h e y p r e p a r e th e m s e lv e s f o r o p p o r tu n i ti e s s h o u l d th e y a r is e . We s h a r e d w i t h t h e m a s w e ll o u r p r o c u r e m e n t – o u r p u b lic p r o c u r e m e n t p l a n s w h ic h i s m o r e o r l e s s th e – th e t e m p l a te t h a t Ms K w i n a n a a s k e d m e t o p o p u la t e w h e r e w e w e r e a d v is i n g t h e m o f w h e n c e r ta in c o n tr a c t s w e r e s ta r t in g a n d s o t h a t a t le a s t in t h e ir m i n d s th e y c a n s t a r t t o t h in k a n d p r e p a r e th e m s e lv e s i n t e r m s o f t h e ir a r e a s o f i n t e r e s t f o r t h a t ti m e w h e n t h e – th e b i d s – I m e a n th e R F Ps w o u ld g o o u t s o th a t a t l e a s t t h e y a r e k n o w le d g e a b l e . S o w e w e n t o n t h is e x e r c is e . 20 W e – in i ti a l ly w e e v e n h a d b o o t h s – y o u k n o w – w e h a d e x h ib i ti o n b o o t h s t h a t is h o w i t – t h o s e s e m i n a r s i t w a s in a b i g h a ll li k e h e r e a n d I w o u l d h a v e m y d i ff e r e n t C a t e g o r y M a n a g e r s p r e s e n ti n g th e v a r i o u s t h in g s w i t h i n t h e ir a r e a . S o t h e ( i n d is t in c t ) o f b r in g in g p o t e n ti a l s u p p l i e r s t o S A A w o u ld m o v e fr o m o n e b o o th to t h e o t h e r t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d th e w h o l e m e c h a n ic s a r o u n d t h e ir r e s p e c t iv e r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d a ll t h o s e k i n d o f th i n g s . Page 146 of 279 It 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w a s i n fo r m a t i o n s h a r in g a n d n o n - c o m m i t t a l . T h i s i s s o m e t h i n g C h a ir t h a t w a s n o t d o n e f o r t h e fi r s t ti m e a n d I c a n c o n fe s s I d i d t h is i n t h e U n i t e d K in g d o m w h e n I w a s responsible. Al t h o u g h w e u s e d c a l l i t M e e t t h e B u y e r E v e n t , b u y e r s w e r e e x p l a i n i n g th e ir p r o c e s s e s b e c a u s e y o u f in d p u b li c p r o c u r e m e n t C h a ir is q u i t e s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d b u t a t l e a s t i t w a s a d e li b e r a t e m o v e to e x p l a i n w h ic h Mr N i c o B e z u i d e n h o u t w a s v e r y h a p p y w i t h . W e s h a r e d t h a t w i th th e C h a ir. S h e w a s v e r y e x c i t e d a b o u t i t a n d w e s t a r t e d d o in g o u r r o a d s h o w s . T h a t - w i t h t h a t b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir 10 w e t h e n h a d o n e o f th e s u p p ly e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i ts i n D u r b a n a n d th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h w e in v i t e d p e o p l e a ls o h a d a b i t o f c h a l le n g e s b e c a u s e we did not open up. By o p e n i n g i t u p I m e a n i n p u b l ic s e c to r p r o c u r e m e n t C h a ir th e r e a r e o v e r r id in g p r i n c i p le s . W h e n I d o s o m e t h in g i t is n o t f o r tr a n s p a r e n c y, o p e n n e s s , f a ir n e s s , c o m p e ti t iv e n e s s a n d v a lu e a d d i ti o n . S o i t m e a n s e v e n w h e n y o u m a k e in v i t e s t o a n y th in g y o u n e e d t o o p e n i t u p t o a n y p o t e n t ia l B E E o r a n y p o t e n t ia l p e r s o n w h o t h i n k s t h e y q u a li f y t o t h a t k i n d o f a jo b . S o t h e C h a ir a n d th e – a n d M s K w i n a n a g a v e m e s o m e lis t in g s o f s o m e o f t h e c o m p a n i e s t h e y t h i n k t h e y w a n t e d t o b e in v i t e d a n d m y 20 C a t e g o r y M a n a g e r s h a p p i ly i n v i te d t h e m t o th a t s e s s i o n . S o w e h a d a s e s s i o n o f a l m o s t a b o u t 6 0 d i ff e r e n t c o m p a n i e s if y o u w a n t . W e d i d n o t q u i t e k n o w th e i r n a m e s b u t o b v i o u s ly w e h a d a r e g is t e r w h e r e p e o p l e c o u l d r e g is t e r th e i r p r e s e n c e a n d a t te n d a n c e a n d t h e n w h e n w e w e r e i n th o s e s e s s i o n s w e s t a r te d ta lk in g a b o u t t h e – th e is s u e o f t r a n s f o r m a ti o n – a g g r e s s iv e tr a n s f o r m a t io n - w h i c h I d i d n o t Page 147 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h a v e p r o b le m s w i th b e c a u s e i t w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I th i n k is n o b l e b u t t h o u g h I h a d p r o b le m s w i th t h e h o w w e n e e d e d to d o it t h e w h a t I w a s v e r y h a p p y w it h . H e n c e w e c a m e u p w it h t h a t in i ti a tiv e a n d n o w a t s o m e p o i n t la t e r Ms K w i n a n a t h e n – t h a t is w h e r e s h e w r i t e s t h is p a r t ic u l a r p a s s a g e a n d s h e w a s t h e n s a y i n g s h e w a n te d m e t o a w a r d 1 5 p e r c e n t s e t- a s id e o f – w h a t w a s th is p r o d u c t ? T h a t w a s S w is s p o r t S e r v ic e s a s w e ll a s f o r E n g e n to th e 6 0 c o m p a n i e s t h a t a t t e n d e d t h e – th e s u p p l y engagement summit in Durban. 10 I e x p l a in e d t o M s K w i n a n a t h a t it w a s n o t p o s s ib l e b e c a u s e le g a l ly t h o s e w e r e in d i v i d u a l c o m p a n i e s a n d i t w a s v e r y d i ff ic u l t fo r u s t o th e n s a y w e a r e g o in g t o a w a r d t o a g r o u p o f 6 0 d i ffe r e n t c o m p a n i e s . I n w h o s e n a m e w a s th e a w a r d g o in g t o b e m a d e . So that was my p r o b le m , n u m b e r o n e . Then she responded to me and said she needed to – I need – I n e e d e d a s t h e C P O to s e t u p a c o m p a n y – a h o ld in g c o m p a n y th a t c o u l d c o n s t it u t e a l l t h o s e c o m p a n i e s a n d I e x p la in e d t o h e r t h a t i t w a s v ir t u a lly i m p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e t h a t w a s n o t w i t h i n t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e r o le o f t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r s e t ti n g u p c o m p a n i e s to w h ic h I w i ll 20 p r o c u r e f r o m . I t w a s a f u n d a m e n ta l b r e a c h o f m y d u ti e s a n d th e n s h e said she was going to do it herself and we had some … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Ms K w i n a n a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ms K w i n a n a y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d w e h a d c h a l le n g e s a r o u n d t h a t Page 148 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly in a l l my e ff o r ts to e x p la in t o h e r t h e d i ff ic u l ti e s o f m e tr y i n g t o m e r g e d i ff e r e n t i n d iv i d u a ls a t t e n d i n g a s u p p ly e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i t a n d m a k e t h e m b e c o m e a c o m p a n y s h e d i d n o t ta k e i t l i g h t ly. She felt I was – I was being … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e d e f y i n g h e r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ex a c t ly b u t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : But no I would never have done a n y th in g b e c a u s e i t is v ir tu a l ly i m p o s s i b l e a n d i t w a s – i t w a s n o t w i th i n 10 t h e r e m i t o f m y d u ti e s a n d th a t i s w h a t g a v e r i s e t o t h i s – t h is p a r t ic u l a r email. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u D r D a h w a . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o s i n c e s h e w a s a N o n - E x e c u tiv e M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d s h e w o u l d k e e p t h e C E O a n d t h e p e r s o n y o u w e r e r e p o r ti n g w h o I th in k w a s – y o u s a id C F O ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: K e e p th o s e p e o p le a n d c o m e a n d t a lk t o y o u a b o u t p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 Ye s C h a ir. Yo u w il l fi n d s h e w o u l d even go a step below me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : L a t e r o n I a m s u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I th i n k i t is f a ir ly i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e a c tu a lly r e fl e c t w h a t Ms K w in a n a w r o t e i n th is s e c ti o n b e c a u s e Page 149 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D r D a h w a , I ’d lik e t o a s k o n e o r tw o fo l lo w u p q u e s t i o n s f r o m i t s o C h a ir w i t h y o u r l e a v e I’ ll j u s t r e a d i t in t o th e r e c o r d a n d th e n w e c a n t a k e i t f r o m t h e r e , s o t h e f ir s t p o r t io n i n r e d o n th a t p a g e r e a d s , “ T h e a ll o c a ti o n o f 1 5 % t o B E E w a s a B o a r d d e c is i o n w h i c h h a s n o t b e e n i m p l e m e n te d , th e B o a r d a ll o c a t e d th e 1 5 % t o a ll B E E c o m p a n i e s i n th e S A A d a t a b a s e w h o ’ v e b e e n k n o c k in g o n S A A doors. The number of these companies is + 60 in the Sharks B o a r d S u p p li e r e n g a g e m e n t t h e fo r u m t h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e i t, i t w a s a g r e e d th a t S A A o r E n g e n f o r t h a t m a t t e r 10 c a n n o t s ig n a n a g r e e m e n t w it h 3 0 c o m p a n i e s a n d th a t t h e y w i ll b e in c l u d e d a s o n e c o m p a n y fo r e a s e o f c o n tr a c ti n g . In s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g w i th M is i m b a i t w a s a g r e e d w h e r e t h e o n e company represents all + companies or all 60 companies sign, it i s n o t a n is s u e . W h a t m u s t h a p p e n is t h a t th e 1 5 % m u s t b e i m p l e m e n te d , i n f a c t C h a ir p e r s o n n o i m p l a n t a ti o n o f B o a r d – non-implementation of Board r e s o l u t io n s a m o u n ts to in s u b o r d i n a t io n ” . D r D a h w a , y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u h a d d i ff ic u l ti e s w i t h th e p r a c tic a li ti e s o f h o w t o d o t h i s , is th a t c o r r e c t ? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e l e g a l it i e s , in f a ir n e s s t o y o u r e v id e n c e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r. When Ms Kwinana writes here that you had a g r e e d w it h h e r th a t i t d id n ’ t m a t te r w h e t h e r o n e c o m p a n y r e p r e s e n t s a l l + 6 0 c o m p a n i e s o r a ll 6 0 c o m p a n i e s s i g n h a s s h e c o r r e c t ly r e f le c t e d Page 150 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 y o u r p o s i ti o n , in y o u r v i e w ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d y o u c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h h e r t h e d i ff ic u l t ie s t h a t y o u s a w f o l lo w i n g fr o m t h is B o a r d d e c i s io n ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir a n d I t h i n k o n t o p o f t h a t C h a ir w e a ls o h a d a d v ic e fr o m t h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d D T I t o t h a t e ffe c t t o s a y th a t i t w a s u n l a w fu l fo r S A A t o c o n t in u e o n th a t p a t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u D r D a h w a t h a t is a p o i n t m a d e l a t e r in t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s o I ’d lik e t o p ic k i t u p t h e n i f w e m a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , I th o u g h t th e r e ’s a p a r t i n t h e e m a il w h e r e s h e s e e m s to b e a d d r e s s in g th e C h a ir p e r s o n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d , C h a ir t h e o r i g in a l … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t la s t s e n te n c e I th in k it w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o t h e w a y t h i s b e g i n s , it ’s d i ffi c u l t to p u t i t t o g e th e r b u t i t ’s a e m a il a d d r e s s e d b y Ms K w i n a n a t o M s My e n i a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n d e ta il in g t h e d i ffi c u l ti e s t h a t s h e h a s b u t s h e c o p i e s i t t o , a m o n g s t o t h e r s , t h e C F O w h o is M r M e y e r a n d i t ’s t h e n M r M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e t o h e r th a t w e h a v e o n t h is p a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh you see, I understood and I made a note next to 20 it , in li n e w i t h th e n o t e e x p l a n a t o r y n o te t h a t I s a id m a y b e w e s h o u ld h a v e , I s a id it ’s fi r s t e m a il fr o m , a c t u a l ly I s a i d fr o m M s K w i n a n a to Mr M e y e r, i n i t ia ll y I th o u g h t i t ’s fr o m M s K w i n a n a t o Mr M e y e r, th a t ’s n o t the case? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : member of the I t i s to M r M e y e r, t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e o th e r Board and what Ms Page 151 of 279 K w in a n a does is at 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p o i n t s … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is fr o m M s K w in a n a ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s c e r t a i n l y fr o M s K w in a n a b u t s h e a d d r e s s e s d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e . CHAIRPERSON: O h it ’s a d d r e s s e d to a n u m b e r p e o p l e a m o n g w h o m w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d a n d a l s o a m o n g w h o m is Mr M e y e r a n d it m i g h t h a v e b e e n m y e r r o r t o f o c u s o n M r M e y e r b e c a u s e t h e b l u e o n t h is p a g e i s M r M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u , i t c a n b e c o n f u s in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is te r r i b l y c o n fu s i n g C h a ir b u t w e w il l d o t h o s e n o t e s in d u e c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d w e t h e n g o t o w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t o b e M r M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e w h i c h a c t u a l ly a p p e a r s h i g h e r o n t h e p a g e , is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t D r D a h w a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r. A n d w h a t d o e s M r M e y e r r e fl e c t th e r e u n d e r p o i n t s 1 , 2 a n d 3 i n h is r e s p o n s e t o t h i s a s p e c t o f M s K w in a n a ’s e a r li e r 20 correspondence? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Fir s tl y a n d f o r e m o s t M r M e y e r is r e m i n d in g th e B o a r d m e m b e r a b o u t t h e C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r s fi d u c i a r y d u ty a s b e i n g to e n s u r e S A A p r o c u r e m e n t p r a c t ic e s a r e c o m p li a n t w it h i t ’s o w n S M E p o l ic ie s a s w e l l a s t h e P u b li c Pr o c u r e m e n t la w s a n d r e g u l a t i o n s a n d h e ’s a ls o r e m in d i n g t h e B o a r d m e m b e r t h a t Page 152 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w h a t e v e r d e c is i o n s a n d c o n d u c t b y t h e B o a r d i t m u s t n o t – i t m u s t b e b e y o n d a p p r o a c h , i t m u s t s ta n d t h e t e s t o f t i m e s a n d a ls o o n p o i n t 3 h e ’s s a y i n g p l e a s e n o te t h e a l lo c a t io n o f th e 1 5 % s e t a s i d e t o Quintessential B u s in e s s C o n s u l t in g Limited, r e g is tr a ti o n number 2 0 1 4 /0 1 2 4 7 0 /0 7 r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r P e t e r Ts h is e v h e i s n o t p a r t o f t h e Board resolution. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e s to p t h e r e , w h a t w a s Q u i n te s s e n t ia l B u s i n e s s C o n s u l t in g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 Q u i n t e s s e n ti a l B u s i n e s s C o n s u l ti n g P r iv a t e L i m it e d , C h a ir, i s a c o m p a n y th a t w a s s e n t t o m e b y Mr s K w in a n a v i a a S M S a s t h e h o l d i n g c o m p a n y th a t w o u l d r e p r e s e n t th e + 6 0 c o m p a n i e s th a t w o u l d – th a t h a v e a tt e n d e d t h e D u r b a n s u p p ly e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i t a n d a ls o a n i n d i v i d u a l b y t h e n a m e M r P e t e r Ts h is e v h e w a s s u p p o s e d to b e t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o f t h a t p a r ti c u la r c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h y M r M e y e r w a s m a k i n g s p e c i fi c r e fe r e n c e t o th a t c o m p a n y n o t a p p e a r in g in t h e Board resolution? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 C h a ir y o u fi n d th e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n in a s m u c h a s i t w a s ta lk in g a b o u t t h e a ll o c a ti o n o f t h e 1 5 % t o a B E E c o m p a n y, b u t i t d i d n o t m e n t i o n a p a r ti c u l a r n a m e o f a c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d e s p i t e t h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t M s K w in a n a w a s s a y i n g t h e 1 5 % h a d t o b e a ll o c a te d t o th a t s p e c i f ic company? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. Page 153 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e g o d o w n t h e p a g e to t h e n e x t r e d t h a t a p p e a r s , c o u l d y o u t e l l u s w h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d M r K w in a n a t o b e c o n v e y in g i n th a t p a r t o f h e r e a r li e r e m a i l ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : s a y in g , s h e I t h in k w h a t M r s K w in a n a w a s t h e n w a s in d is a g r e e m e n t w i t h M r W o l f M e y e r in te r ms o f th e p r a c ti c a l i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r r e q u ir e m e n t a n d t h e n s h e g o e s o n t o – tr y i n g to s a y w a s Mr M e y e r n o t p a r t o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r B o a r d w h e r e t h is r e s o l u ti o n w a s m a d e , a s k in d o f i m p ly i n g th a t h e s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n a b o u t Q u i n t e s s e n ti a l a s it c o u ld h a v e b e e n a t t h a t 10 p a r t ic u l a r B o a r d , I m e a n t h a t’s my u n d e r s t a n d in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , s h e ’s t h e r e in th a t s e c o n d r e d d e a li n g w it h th e S w is s p o r t c o n tr a c t i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e s e taside th a t th e B o a r d w a n te d to b e i m p le m e n t e d in relation to S w is s p o r t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th i n k I a ls o n e e d to g i v e a b i t o f b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir, t h e S w is s p o r t c o n t r a c t C h a i r h a p p e n e d w e l l b e f o r e m y t i m e , t h e te n d e r h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 11 s o m e ti m e a n d i t w a s a w a r d e d i n 20 2 0 1 2 a n d w h a t y o u fi n d is , b e c a u s e o f t h e m a lp r a c t ic e s i n t e r m s o f c o n tr a c ti n g t h e r e h a d n o t b e e n a c o n tr a c t in p l a c e e v e r s in c e u n ti l t h is p a r t ic u l a r d a te a n d f o r s o m e r e a s o n n o w t h a t w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t B E E t h e B o a r d fe l t th a t t h e y n e e d e d n o w t o r e l in q u is h p a r t o f t h e ir s c o p e o f w o r k t o a B E E c o m p a n y b y t h e n a m e G e m ic r o n ? P r iv a t e L i m i t e d a n d w h e r e th a t c o m p a n y c o m e s fr o m , a g a i n , I d id n ’ t h a v e a n i d e a c h a ir. Page 154 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s M r M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e t o th a t y o u ’ ll p ic k i t u p i n t h e b l u e a b o v e t h e r e d , h a l fw a y d o w n t h e p a g e . CHAIRPERSON: I j u s t n o te t h a t a t t h e e n d o f e a c h o f th e t w o e m a i ls t h a t Ms K w i n a n a h a s w r i t t e n th e r e , s h e e n d s u p b y e m p h a s is i n g t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t n o n - i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f B o a r d r e s o l u t i o n s a m o u n ts t o in s u b o r d i n a t io n , i t ’s li k e s h e ’s in s ti g a t i n g h e r to d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t w h a t s h e p e r c e i v e s t o b e in s u b o r d i n a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir a n d t h a t i s a c t u a ll y q u i t e i m p o r t a n t fo r th e r e s t o f D r D a h w a ’s s t o r y b e c a u s e t h a t is p r e c is e ly a s 10 w e h a v e i t , th e c h a r g e t h a t w a s l e v e l l e d a t h i m . S o i f w e p ic k u p t h e b l u e a b o v e t h a t r e d th e r e , w h a t w a s M r M e y e r ’s r e s p o n s e D r D a h w a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S h a ll I r e a d C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Okay I read, “ T h e B o a r d r e s o lu t io n t h a t S A A s h o u l d e n d e a v o u r t o s i g n th e c o n tr a c t w i t h a B E E S M M d ir e c tly t o a s s is t t h e S M M E t o r a is e a n y r e q u i r e d fu n d s is u n r e a l is ti c . I t i s n o t c le a r h o w S A A w i ll s ig n a c o n tr a c t w i th a s u p p l i e r w i th o u t f o l lo w in g a d u e a n d proper procurement process”. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f y o u w i ll j u s t r e a d t h e b l u e a b o v e t h a t , u n d e r p o i n t 4 a s w e ll . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Point 4, “ T h e p r a c t ic a l i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f th e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n o n t h e S w is s p o r t g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s a r e c l e a r, e s p e c i a lly i n th a t t h is is a r e g u l a te d s e r v ic e , t h e s e le c t i o n o f G e m i c r o n Pr iv a t e L i m i te d to w o r k Page 155 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w i t h S w is s p o r t a s th e B E E p a r tn e r fo r th e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e i s n o t i n li n e w i t h t h e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n , a l s o a d u e a n d p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s n o t fo ll o w e d . CHAIRPERSON: C a n I j u s t c o n fir m t h a t in t e r m s o f t h e s e q u e n c e o n t h is p a g e , t h e fi r s t e m a il to b e s e n t is t h e o n e – t h e fir s t r e d o n e o n t h e p a g e a n d t h a t th e n e x t e m a i l w h ic h w a s a r e s p o n s e t o i t i s t h e f ir s t o n e o n t h e p a g e , fir s t r e d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I c a n c l a r if y, t h e r e d s a l l c o m e f r o m a s in g le e m a il . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t M r M e y e r d o e s in r e s p o n d i n g t o i t , i s h e b r e a k s i t u p i n to i ts v a r io u s p a r ts a n d t h e n h e r e s p o n d s t o i t i n t h e blue. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I ’ m a s k i n g i s w h e t h e r, f ir s t w e h a v e t h e f ir s t r e d fr o m M s K w in a n a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n w e h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o th a t w h i c h i s a b o v e M s K w i n a n a ’s o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t t h e r e a f t e r w e h a v e t h e s e c o n d r e d w h ic h is fr o m M s K w i n a n a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n w e h a v e t h e b l u e i m m e d ia t e l y a b o v e t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e r e a ft e r w e h a v e t h e la s t o n e o n t h e p a g e . Page 156 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w I j u s t w a n te d m a k e s u r e I ’v e g o t th a t s e q u e n c e r ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e , C h a ir t h e r e is a l o t g o i n g o n i n th is e m a i l a n d I a ls o k n o w t h a t M s M p s h e is g o i n g t o s p e n d s o m e ti m e o n it o n M o n d a y w h a t I w a n t t o fo c u s o n w it h M r D a h w a a r e t h e p a r ti c u l a r a s p e c ts t h a t e m e r g e fr o m t h is e m a il t h a t th e n r e l a t e t o h is l a te r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h Ms M y e n i a n d M s K w in a n a . S o i f I m a y s u g g e s t th a t w e t h e n t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e to p a g e 2 2 7 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’ ll s e e a t t h e b o t t o m t h e r e D r D a h w a t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h in r e d th e r e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r. T h e r e is a n i n d ic a t io n fr o m M s K w i n a n a , i t a p p e a r s to b e a n a c c e p t a n c e t h a t, a n d I ’ m q u o ti n g h e r e , “ I t is tr u e t h a t t h e B o a r d c a n n o t b e s e e n to b e o p e r a t io n a l ly in v o lv e d ” , C o u ld y o u c o n t in u e to r e a d w h a t i s r e c o r d e d t h e r e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 Ye s C h a i r, “ T h e B o a r d h a s s p e c i f ic f u n c ti o n s w h i c h i n c l u d e , a m o n g s t o th e r s m a k i n g d e c is io n s t h a t d o n o t p u t t h e c o m p a n y a t r is k . M a n a g e m e n t h a s a l s o a s p e c i f ic r e s p o n s ib il i ty a m o n g t h e m b e i n g t o i m p l e m e n t m a n a g e m e n t d e c i s i o n s a n d e n s u r e t h a t a ll o f o u r s u p p li e r s h a v e v a li d c o n tr a c ts i n p la c e a n d t h a t w e d o n o t ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e s , th is i s ju s t f o r s o m e o f t h e Page 157 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e b l u e t e x t b e lo w th a t i s w h e r e I u n d e r s t a n d it , M r M e y e r w a s m a k in g r e fe r e n c e t o t h a t g u i d a n c e th a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o p r e v io u s ly t h a t h a d b e e n r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a n d D T I w h a t is th a t g u id a n c e D r D a h w a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e g u id a n c e w a s , a n d I r e a d fr o m what Mr Meyer wrote, “ S A A h a s r e c e iv e d a d ir e c t g u id a n c e fr o m t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a s w e ll fr o m D e p a r t m e n t o f – D O T i n r e s p e c t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t r a n s p o r t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C h a ir I t h in k r e a d i n c o n te x t, i t w a s a t y p o b e c a u s e it ’s r e a lly s u p p o s e d t o b e D T I , w e ’ll s e e t h e l e tt e r s a t t a c h e d in a moment. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Thank you, “ I n r e s p e c t o f th e 3 0 % s e t a s id e m a t te r w h ic h s h o u l d n o t b e ig n o r e d b y t h e B o a r d r e fe r r e d to t h e a tt a c h e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s fr o m 20 th e DTI and N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y we all agree that tr a n s fo r m a t i o n in S o u t h A f r ic a i s i m p o r t a n t b u t th is g o a l d o e s n o t j u s ti fy t h a t p r o p e r g o v e r n a n c e a n d s u p p ly c h a i n p o l ic i e s s h o u l d n o t b e f o ll o w e d . S A A i s c u r r e n tl y e x p o s e d to a n d c a n n o t a ffo r d a n a u d i t r e p o r t c o n t a i n i n g f in d i n g s , g o v e r n a n c e tr a n s g r e s s i o n s ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u D r D a h w a , I ’d li k e t o t a k e u s th e n to Page 158 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e tw o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s th a t w e r e r e fe r e n c e d t h e r e t h a t w e r e t h e n a tt a c h e d t o t h is e m a il , y o u ’ ll f i n d t h a t if y o u fl ic k a f e w p a g e s o n a t p a g e 2 3 4 .1 . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th is l e t t e r a t th e ti m e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o is th e l e tt e r w r i t te n b y a n d w h o is i t a d d r e s s e d to ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 T h e l e t te r is w r i t te n b y M r s Z o d w a N tu li a c ti n g B B B E E C o m m i s s io n e r fr o m D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y a n d it ’s g o i n g t o Ms D u d u M y e n i C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d , S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d j u s t a s s is t u s w i t h a d a t e f o r th e le t t e r i f y o u m a y y o u ’l l f i n d it a t p a g e 2 3 4 . 3 . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w a s d a te d 1 3 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , I ’d li k e t o p ic k i t u p a t 2 3 4 . 2 i f w e m a y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d D r D a h w a to t h e e x te n t n e c e s s a r y I ’l l t a k e y o u t o a n y s p e c i fi c p a r a g r a p h t h a t I t h i n k i s i m p o r t a n t b u t if y o u c o u l d ju s t s u m m a r is e f o r u s in e s s e n c e , w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h i s le t t e r t o b e c o m m u n ic a ti n g fr o m t h e a c ti n g B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r to th e C h a ir o f S A A’s B o a r d . D R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : I t h i n k in my o w n v i e w C h a ir j u s t a Page 159 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s u m m a r y o r t h e k e y m e s s a g e f o r m e t o S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s w a s p l e a s e d o n o t p r o c e e d w i th t h is p r a c t ic e a s i t i s u n l a w fu l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , y o u d o s e e t h a t – I t h in k t h a t is a f a ir s u m m a r y o f th e t e x t D r D a h w a , i f w e s t a r t a t p a g e 2 3 4 . 2 y o u ’ ll s e e under paragraph 3 there the acting BBBEE Commissioner writes, “ W e r e i t e r a te a l l t h e c o n te n ts o f th e le t t e r s e n t t o S A A on 9 September 2015 and advise that the 30% set aside in it i a t iv e t h a t S A A i s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f i m p le m e n t in g , to t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t w a s e x p l a i n e d t o u s i n t h e m e e ti n g w i t h S A A , is 10 in o u r v i e w, n o t i n li n e w i th t h e B B B E E A c t a n d t h e c o d e s o f g o o d p r a c t ic e ” . C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t p a u s e f o r a m o m e n t t h e r e , t h a t p r i o r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is g o i n g t o b e d e a lt w it h b y M s M p s h e , s o w e h a v e n ’ t in c l u d e d i t h e r e , s h e w il l b e g i v i n g e v i d e n c e o n M o n d a y. I t g o e s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 4 t o s t a te a s f o l lo w s , “ A s a n o r g a n o f S t a te a n d P u b l ic e n ti t y S A A is r e q u ir e d t o a p p ly a n y r e l e v a n t c o d e o f g o o d p r a c ti c e , is s u e d i n t e r m s o f t h e B B B E E A c t w h i c h r e f e r s t o t h e g e n e r ic c o d e s is s u e d b y t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y o r t h e S e c t o r c o d e a s a p p r o v e d 20 a n d g a z e t te d b y th e M i n i s te r o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y. A n y o r g a n o f S t a t e o r P u b li c e n t i ty m a y d e v i a t e o r b e e x e m p t e d th r o u g h s e c t io n 9 6 o f t h e B B B E E A c t a s a m e n d e d if p a r t ic u l a r, o b j e c ti v e ly, v e r if i a b l e facts or c ir c u m s t a n c e s a p p lic a b l e n e c e s s it a t e th e e x e m p t io n o r d e v i a t i o n a n d t h e n a t 5 , S A A c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e d e v i a t i o n o r e x e m p ti o n r e fe r r e d t o i n Page 160 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p a r a g r a p h 4 a b o v e h a s n o t b e e n g r a n t e d i n l in e w i t h th e fr a m e w o r k o f t h e B B B E E A c t a s a m e n d e d a n d th e r e fo r e i t is o u r v i e w th a t S A A is n o t in a p o s i t io n t o le g a l ly p r o c e e d w i t h t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f th e 3 0 % s e t a s id e i n t h e m a n n e r proposed”, And it goes on at – over the page at page 234.3 if you read at p a r a g r a p h 8 t h e r e D r D a h w a , w o u ld y o u r e a d th a t f o r u s s o th a t w e k n o w t h e t e r m s i n w h ic h t h is l e t te r w a s c o n c lu d e d . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 Ye s C h a i r a n d I r e a d , “ h a v i n g s a i d th e a b o v e w e r e q u e s t S A A t o s e n d u s w r i t t e n c o n fir m a t io n t h a t i t w il l n o t p r o c e e d t o i m p l e m e n t th e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e in i ti a tiv e u n ti l i t h a s a p p l ie d f o r a n d r e c e iv e d t h e a u t h o r i s a t io n t o d o s o i n t e r m s o f t h e B B B E E A c t a s a m e n d e d a s a g r e e d i n th e m e e t in g . W e w i ll a p p r e c i a t e if t h e p e r s o n , d u ly a u th o r is e d p e r s o n a t S A A c a n s e n d u s t h i s w r i t t e n c o n fir m a t io n b y Fr i d a y 1 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Dr Dahwa when you were providing the s u m m a r y o f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h i s l e t t e r I r e c a l l y o u a s h a v in g s a id t h a t th e a c ti n g B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r i n d ic a te d th a t th is i n it i a t iv e 20 s h o u l d s t o p i m m e d ia t e l y, I c e r ta i n ly w a n t t o s u g g e s t t o y o u th a t , t h a t ’s c o n s i s te n t w i th w h a t p a r a g r a p h 8 s a y s b e c a u s e a s I r e a d it , a n d y o u ’ ll c o r r e c t m e i f y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t i n te r p r e ta t io n , i t ’s s a y in g t h a t t h e B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r i s r e q u e s t i n g w r i t t e n c o n fi r m a ti o n t h a t S A A w i ll n o t p r o c e e d t o i m p l e m e n t th e i n i t ia t iv e a n d r e q u e s t s th a t b y th e 1 8 t h o f S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 i s t h a t h o w y o u r e a d t h e l e tt e r ? Page 161 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To y o u r k n o w l e d g e , w h a t h a p p e n e d , i f y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e , a b o u t w h e th e r S A A d i d p r o v id e t h a t w r i t t e n c o n fi r m a ti o n t h a t i t w o u ld n o t p r o c e e d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t to m y k n o w l e d g e C h a ir a n d if i t h a d , I t h e n d e s e r v e d t o k n o w, b a s i c a ll y a s t h e i m p le m e n t e r o f th is p a r t ic u l a r t a s k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e ’l l g e t t h e r e i n y o u r e v i d e n c e b u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t, p o s t t h is d a te w h i c h is 1 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , th e r e a r e s ti ll 10 e n g a g e m e n ts b e t w e e n m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d a n d y o u r s e l f r e q u i r i n g y o u t o i m p le m e n t th e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ’ ll g e t in t o t h e d e ta il . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e a ls o th a t i n th e s a m e p a r a g r a p h - o h n o t i n t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h , i n th e s a m e l e t te r, N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y o f t h e B B B E E C o m m i s s i o n e r l e a v e s t h e d o o r o p e n f o r S A A , i f t h e y t a k e a d i ffe r e n t v ie w t o c o m e b a c k t o h e r a n d g iv e t h e ir d i ff e r e n t v ie w a n d r e a s o n s s o t h a t s h e c a n l o o k a t t h a t , w a s th a t e v e r d o n e , if y o u k n o w ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 N o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you and then if we can go over to the s e c o n d a tt a c h e d le t t e r, w h ic h y o u ’l l f i n d a t 2 3 4 .4 , w h o i s t h a t l e t te r fr o m D r D a h w a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t ’s fr o m th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i n p a r t ic u la r t h e r e ? Page 162 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t i s M r K e n n e t h Br o w n , t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r t h e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h e d a t e o f th a t l e t te r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t ’s 2 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d to w h o m i s i t a d d r e s s e d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To M r s T. M p s h e w h o w a s th e a c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ffi c e r o f S A A t h e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e l e t te r is f a ir l y s h o r t a n d m o s t o f i t’s c o n te n t I s u b m i t i s i m p o r t a n t, s o i f I m a y j u s t r e a d i t in t o t h e r e c o r d a n d 10 t h e n w e c a n a s k D r D a h w a f o r h is c o m m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e ’s a r e f e r e n c e t o a p r e v io u s le t t e r d a t e d 2 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , a g a i n C h a ir w e w il l d e a l w i th t h a t in M s M p s h e ’s e v i d e n c e b u t i t ’s r e le v a n t n o w b e c a u s e t h is w a s a n a t t a c h m e n t t o D r D a h w a ’s – th e e m a i ls o n w h ic h D r D a h w a w a s c o p i e d t h e n t h e a u th o r, M r Br o w n c o n ti n u e s , “ Yo u r l e t te r i n d i c a t e s t h a t c u r r e n tly a l l p r o c u r e m e n t d e c is io n s are made w it h in the framework of the Supply Chain M a n a g e m e n t p o li c y a n d th a t t h e B o a r d r e s o lv e d t o s e t a s id e 20 30% for key businesses. procurement transactions for b la c k owned D e c is io n s th a t a r e t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d t o e n c o u r a g e tr a n s fo r m a ti o n i n p r o c u r e m e n t a r e c o m m e n d a b l e , h o w e v e r, the SAA Board must p r o c u r e m e n t l e g a l fr a m e w o r k . not operate o u ts id e the T h e r e s o lu ti o n o f th e B o a r d t o s e t a s i d e 3 0 % i n i t s c u r r e n t f o r m is n o t s u p p o r t e d b y a n y Page 163 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o c u r e m e n t l e g a l fr a m e w o r k i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t . and must be stopped w i th Yo u a r e k i n d ly r e q u e s t e d t o a d v is e th e B o a r d n o t t o ta k e p r o c u r e m e n t d e c i s i o n s t h a t b r i n g s th e n a m e o f S A A a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n to d is r e p u t e . K i n d l y u p d a te m e o n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t a r o u n d th e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e o f k e y p r o c u r e m e n t tr a n s a c ti o n s ” . D r D a h w a w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h is l e t t e r t o c o n v e y i n s o f a r a s N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s v i e w o f th e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e d e c is i o n w a s concerned? 10 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k C h a ir t h e a d v ic e w a s s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d th a t w e n e e d e d o r S A A n e e d e d t o s t o p i m p le m e n t in g t h e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e w i th i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e D r D a h w a w a s t h is p o in t taken forward with the Board? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o C h a ir. T h a n k y o u , I’ d t h e n l ik e t o r e t u r n to y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f w e m a y, w e w e r e a t p a g e 1 0 o f t h e a ffi d a v it . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 10? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 1 0 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e c a n p ic k i t u p a t t h e b o tt o m o f th e p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 2 9 , D r D a h w a y o u t h e r e a r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e i n a u g u r a l e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i t a t w h ic h t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d s a id c e r t a in t h i n g s in r e l a ti o n t o y o u , w h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h a t o c c a s io n ? Page 164 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y w h ic h p a r t C h a ir ? S o r r y p a r a g r a p h 2 9 a t th e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 0 y o u t a lk a b o u t c e r t a i n o f t h e c o m m e n t s o f th e C h a i r t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s a m o u n t in g to i n s i n u a t io n s a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t a s p e c i fi c e v e n t , b e i n g t h e i n a u g u r a l e n g a g e m e n t s u m m i t a n d w h a t w a s s a id th e r e , c o u l d y o u e x p l a i n th a t to u s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S u r e C h a ir, y o u k n o w j u s t to t h e p u b lic th e C h a ir fr o m N o w h e r e a d v i s e d t h e a u d i e n c e t h a t I w a s t h e a c ti n g C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r a n d f o r m e t o s e c u r e a p e r m a n e n t 10 p o s i ti o n I n e e d e d t o t a k e in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m h e r a n d t o m a k e s u r e I i m p l e m e n te d t h e m a s p e r r e q u e s t a n d if I d i d n o t s o , s h e w o u ld n ’t a p p o i n t m e p e r m a n e n t C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s s a y in g th a t t o y o u ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : That was Ms Dudu Myeni the C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h i s i n a m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A p a r t fr o m y o u a n d h e r w h o e l s e w a s a t t h e m e e t in g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 people, s h e ’d do it li k e in I t w a s – s h e w a s a d d r e s s in g t h e a joking manner but obviously to me…(intervention). C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o t h e r e w e r e o t h e r p e o p le in t h e m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e b u s in e s s o f th e m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : The same supply engagement Page 165 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s u m m i t s w h e r e w e w e r e s h a r in g in f o r m a t io n a b o u t o p p o r tu n i t ie s a n d t h e p o s s i b il it i e s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s w o u l d a t te n d th o s e s u m m i ts ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o m e w o u l d b u t a ll I k n o w is a l w a y s w e r e th e t w o B o a r d m e m b e r s , M s K w in a n a a n d Ms M y e n i a n d o n c e , i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s D r Ta m b i a t t e n d e d a s w e l l. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a t – w a s i t a t o n e o r m o r e o f t h e s e m e e ti n g s w h e r e s h e s p o k e a l o n g t h e s e li n e s a b o u t y o u ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 On a nother one, where I sensed tr o u b le c o m in g m y w a y, w e w e n t , f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e w i th A d v o c a t e L e s t e r P e t e r a n d t h e th e n H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t f o r S A A Te c h n ic a l s h e w a s a ls o A d v o c a t e – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r h e r n a m e b u t it w a s a s h e a n d th e C h a r a g a i n fr o m n o w h e r e s ta r t e d s a y in g , y o u k n o w I d o n ’ t t h in k a s S o u th A fr ic a n s w e c a n r u n t h is k in d o f t h i n g s o n o u r o w n , y o u k n o w i t ’s ti m e w e n e e d t o h a v e o u r o w n w o o d th a t w o u l d h e l p u s t o t a k e t h i s c o u n tr y f o r w a r d a n d s h e w a s s a y i n g i t a g a in i n t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) b u t o b v i o u s l y m e s i t ti n g th e r e , I w a s th e o r g a n is e r a n d th e C h i e f Ar c h i te c t o f t h e s e e v e n t s s o s u c h c o m m e n ts , i n m y v ie w, w e r e n o t n e c e s s a r y i f I m a y u s e th a t w o r d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e f ir s t o n e , j u s t r e p e a t w h a t s h e s a i d , th e fir s t o n e t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th e fi r s t o n e C h a ir, s h e s a i d i f I d i d n ’ t i m p l e m e n t s o m e o f th e t h i n g s th a t s h e w a n t e d i n t e r m s o f tr a n s fo r m a t i o n , s h e w o u l d n o t a p p o i n t m e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r b e c a u s e I w a s a c ti n g a n d I t h i n k t h is w a s h a p p e n i n g i n m y s e c o n d Page 166 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e n e w a l o f c o n tr a c t w h e r e I w a s s t il l w it h s ix m o n t h s t o p r o v e m y s e l f . CHAIRPERSON: A n d a t th is s t a g e , a s f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d , e v e r y t h i n g y o u h a d b e e n d o i n g w a s in a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e p o l ic i e s o f S A A a n d th e l a w ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a i r. B u t s h e w a s e x p e c t i n g y o u t o d o t h i n g s d i ff e r e n tly, w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h e r in s t r u c t i o n s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir, i n i t ia ll y w e w e r e d o in g t h e s e r o a d s h o w s in l in e w it h o u r w is h w h ic h w a s m o r e o f 10 in f o r m a ti o n sharing, nothing committal, you know ju s t providing in f o r m a ti o n g e t t in g t h e a u d i e n c e to a s k q u e s ti o n s a n d w e ’ll r e s p o n d to , b u t a s th e t i m e p r o g r e s s e d th a t is w h e r e n o w w e s ta r t e d g e tt i n g s p e c i f ic s t o s a y o f t h is p a r tic u la r c o n tr a c t I w a n t y o u t o a w a r d t h i s . F o r in s t a n c e in D u r b a n s h e h a d t o a s k m e t o s t a n d u p a n d t o s a y o r c o n fir m t o t h e w h o l e A u g u s t a H o u s e th a t I h a d a w a r d e d a c o n tr a c t to S w is s p o r t in l in e w it h t h i s b u t th e n I s a i d y e s a c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d b e c a u s e t h a t c o n tr a c t i n a s f a r a s I k n e w w a s a w a r d e d i n 2 0 1 2 a n d fr o m p r a c ti c e C h a ir a c o n t r a c t is o n l y a w a r d e d o n c e . Yo u c a n n o t a w a r d i t t w ic e o r t h r i c e o r th r e e ti m e s . S o a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d w e s t a r te d c h a n g in g th e 20 goal posts and the whole thing started becoming a bit muddled it was n o t s t il l i n t h e s a m e s p ir i t a n d v e i n a t w h ic h w e h a d s t a r te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n lik e to m o v e t o a p a r t ic u l a r i n te r a c t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e w i t h M s K w i n a n a a n d M s M e y e n e o n t h e 2 O c t o b e r D o c t o r D a h w a a n d y o u w i ll f in d t h a t a t p a g e 11 o f y o u r Page 167 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a ffi d a v i t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u s ta r t w i t h th is a s p e c t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o n th a t p a g e . C a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t th a t d a t e o f t h e 2 O c t o b e r a n d t a k e u s a s f a i t h f u ll y a s y o u c a n t h r o u g h t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s b e c a u s e q u i t e a b i t h a p p e n s a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t o n t h a t d a y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k a r o u n d t e n 10 in th e m o r n i n g I r e c e i v e d a s ms m e s s a g e fr o m M s K w in a n a t h a t s h e w a n t e d m e t o c o m e to S A A A i r w a y s P a r k b o a r d r o o m o n t h e 6 t h Fl o o r. S o I w e n t t h e r e a n d I s a w Ms K w in a n a . T h e n s h e a s k e d m e h o w f a r I h a d g o n e w i t h th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e 3 0 % s e t a s i d e a n d I r e p e a t e d a g a in my d i ffi c u l ti e s in te r m s o f i m p le m e n ti n g these r e s p e c t iv e c o n tr a c ts o r r e q u ir e m e n t p e r s e a n d th e n s h e c a ll e d t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s Ms K w i n a n a a g a i n . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s M s K w i n a n a y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a i r i f I m a y ju s t i n t e r r u p t fo r o n e m o m e n t 20 b e f o r e y o u c o n t i n u e D o c t o r D a h w a . T h e d a t e is q u it e i m p o r ta n t it s e e m s t o m e i n r e la t io n t o t h e l e t t e r s t h a t w e h a v e l o o k e d a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a s I r e c a l l it t h e l e t te r – t h e f ir s t l e tt e r fr o m t h e B B B E E c o m m i s s i o n e r c o m e s in o n th e 1 3 S e p t e m b e r. The s e c o n d o n e fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y is t h e e n d o f S e p t e m b e r I t h i n k i t Page 168 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w a s t h e 2 8 S e p te m b e r D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 2 9 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d n o w w e a r e a m a t t e r o f a f e w d a y s l a t e r i s that correct in the chronology? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h o s e tw o l e t t e r s a r e c o m m u n i c a t in g a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p a p e r s t h a t S A A m u s t n o t p r o c e e d t o i m p l e m e n t th is 3 0 % s e t a s i d e , is t h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f i t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d t h e n w e g e t t o t h e e v e n t s o f t h e 2 O c t o b e r. T h a n k y o u D o c to r D a h w a a p o l o g i e s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o t h a t i s w h e r e i t a l l s ta r t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u s a y y o u g o t a c a l l a n d Ms K w in a n a c a ll e d y o u a n d y o u h a d a m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o i t w a s a t e x t m e s s a g e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: It was a text message? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: From her? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t s h e w a n t e d m e o n 6 t h Fl o o r. CHAIRPERSON: On the 6th Floor? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : My o ffi c e w a s o n t h e 4 t h Fl o o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e S A A b u il d in g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u i ld i n g y e s A ir w a y s P a r k b u i ld i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id s h e u s e d t o b e a r o u n d i n t h e b u i ld in g ? S h e w a s Page 169 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 n o n - e x e c u ti v e is i t n o t ? D id s h e u s e d t o b e a r o u n d o r … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a y o u fi n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r o c c a s i o n a ll y s h e w o u l d b e th e r e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Yo u w i ll f i n d C h a ir w e a ls o h a d in s t a n c e s w h e r e I a l s o w a s n o t s u r e w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n y b o a r d m e e ti n g g o i n g o n o r w h a t s o e v e r y o u k n o w a s t h ig s s t a r t e d u n v e il in g b u t y o u fi n d th is w a s n o t l ik e fo r t h e fi r s t ti m e th a t t h e y c o u l d b e a t S A A d o i n g w h a t e v e r th e ir b u s in e s s f o r t h e d a y w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y s o th e s m s s a i d – a s k e d y o u to m e e t h e r 10 where? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n t h e b o a r d r o o m a t 6 t h Fl o o r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay yes and you went there. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h i c h w a s t h e e x e c u t iv e s u i te . Ye s a n d I w e n t t h e r e . S o s h e w a n t e d t o k n o w h o w fa r I h a d g o n e w i t h th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f th e S w i s s p o r t a n d th e E n g e n c o n tr a c ts w h e r e th e is s u e o f 3 0 % s e t a s i d e w a s in c l u d e d a s w e l l. S o I w e n t a t p a i n s a g a i n t o tr y a n d e x p l a i n to h e r t h e c h a ll e n g e s I w a s h a v in g i n te r m s o f tr y i n g t o i m p l e m e n t a n d s h e t h e n c a l le d M s U r s u la F ik e l e p e w h o w a s t h e g e n e r a l m a n a g e r l e g a l a n d r is k to t r y a n d e x p l a i n t o m e t h e v a r io u s 20 o p t io n s t h a t c o u ld b e l o o k e d a t in t e r m s o f th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly C h a ir t o m e th o s e - t o m a k e s e n s e t h e y d i d n o t i n a n y way improve my fe a r s of v i o la t in g the procurement rules and r e g u la t io n s a n d a s s u c h I i n s i s t e d th a t i t w a s a d i ff ic u l t t a s k t o i m p l e m e n t a n d I w o u ld n o t f in d m y s e l f i n a p o s it i o n t o g o a h e a d w i t h t h a t d e c i s i o n . A n d t h e n d u r i n g t h a t ti m e f r o m n o w h e r e th e b o a r d c h a ir Page 170 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w a lk e d i n C h a ir a n d s h e s t a r te d s h o w e r i n g p r a is e s t o G M L e g a l a n d R i s k t h a t y o u s e e o u r d a u g h te r s h e i s g r e a t s h e u n d e r s ta n d s w h a t w e a r e tr y i n g to d o . Yo u k n o w i n m y f a c e a n d s h e w e n t o n a n d o n s a y in g a l l s o r ts o f p r a i s e w o r d s fo r G M L e g a l R is k a n d L e g a l a n d R i s k a n d t h e n s h e s a id o k a y n o w I w a n t to k n o w h o w f a r h a v e y o u g o n e w i t h th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e s e 3 0 % s e t a s id e ? S h e a c t u a ll y s a i d s h e d i d n o t w a n t m e t o r e s p o n d t o h e r s o s h e w a s a s k in g M s K w i n a n a t o g iv e h e r a n u p d a t e o f w h ic h s h e d id a n d s h e to ld t h e c h a ir th a t D o c to r D a h w a h a d n o t e v e n m o v e d a n i n c h i n te r m s o f tr y in g to m a k e s u r e th a t th is i s 10 d o n e a n d is c o n ti n u a ll y g iv i n g m e e x c u s e s a n d a s to w h y th is n o t p o s s i b le . Th e n s h e s t a r te d a d d r e s s i n g m e a n d s a i d th a t s h e w a n te d t o a d v e r t is e m y j o b a n d s h e w a s g o in g t o s t a r t i n te r n a l ly. T h e n s h e s a i d o h o k a y b y t h e w a y l e t m e c a ll t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y. S o t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y M s R u th K i b u u k a w a s in v i t e d t o t a k e m in u t e s o f w h a t s h e s a i d s h e w a n t e d r e c o r d e d . S o I t r i e d to m a k e a n a t t e m p t t o r e s p o n d t o h e r a n d I r e m e m b e r v i v i d ly i n h e r w o r d s s h e s a i d n o I w il l o n ly a c c o r d y o u a ir t i m e i f y o u d o w h a t I h a v e a s k e d y o u to d o y o u h a v e a ll t h e a i r t i m e t o t a lk t o m e a n d e v e n t o e x p la i n w h a te v e r y o u w a n t to e x p l a i n . S o I j u s t c o u l d n o t d o i t . Th e n s h e s a i d t o m e I n e e d e d t o g o b a c k t o m y o ffic e 20 a n d p r e p a r e t h e a w a r d le t t e r s . M s – M s K w in a n a t h e n s t a r te d m a k in g s o m e d r a f t s k e tc h e s o f h o w s h e w a n t e d th e a w a r d s t o b e d o n e a n d th e n I w a s a s k e d t o g o a n d i m p l e m e n t t h a t . G M L e g a l a n d R i s k k in d o f h a d c o n s i d e r e d t o s a y m a y b e t h e r e w a s a w a y t o d o i t w h i c h I s ti ll d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h b e c a u s e fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t p o i n t o f v i e w i t w a s n o t i n li n e w i t h th e la w s . S o I w a s a s k e d t o g o b a c k t o m y o ffic e a n d t o p r e p a r e Page 171 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a w a r d l e t t e r s fo r t h e tw o c o m p a n i e s o f w h ic h I d i d . I l e f t I w e n t to m y o ffic e a n d I t r i e d to d r a f t s o m e th i n g th e n I c a m e b a c k a n d I s a i d b u t I c a n n o t s ig n . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h e y w a i t f o r y o u in t h e b o a r d r o o m ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s t h e y d i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e y – i t w a s lik e g o a n d d r a f t t h e l e t t e r s a n d c o m e b a c k y o u w il l f in d u s h e r e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s i t w a s a v e r y l o n g d a y y o u w i ll fi n d I le a v e o ffic e n o w a r o u n d s e v e n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: It was seven. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O r a r o u n d fi v e , s ix is h th e r e i n t h e evening. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t w e s t a r t e d t h i s w h o l e t h i n g fr o m ten o’clock. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e – f ir s tl y w e r e – h a d – w e r e th e r e a n y te n d e r p r o c e s s e s t h a t h a d b e g u n t h a t h a d b e e n tr i g g e r e d , t h a t h a d b e e n in it i a t e d b u t t h e y w e r e w a n ti n g y o u to a w a r d b e f o r e t h e p r o c e s s e s w e r e c o m p le t e d o r w a s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t n o p r o c e s s e s w h a ts o e v e r h a d b e e n 20 in it i a t e d fo r p r o c u r e m e n t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w o u ld h a v e i t b e e n a n y n e e d f o r a n y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b e c a u s e th e S w i s s p o r t c o n t r a c t C h a ir h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a w a r d e d 2 0 1 2 . O n ly o u t s ta n d i n g w a s f in a lis a ti o n o f th e c o n tr a c ts . B u t S w i s s p o r t w a s a lr e a d y d e l iv e r in g th e s e r v ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Page 172 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h a t t h e y w a n te d fr o m m e i s t o a w a r d t o t h e B E E c o m p a n y w h i c h w a s J a m ic r o n C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a te n d e r h a d p r e v io u s ly b e e n is s u e d / D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t t e n d e r h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a w a r d e d t o a c e r t a i n c o m p a n y S w is s p o r t D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll t h a t r e m a in e d w a s t h e fi n a li s a t i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w e r e s a y in g c h a n g e t h a t a n d a w a r d th is t o a BBEE company D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e 3 0 % CHAIRPERSON: Or they were saying add the BBEE company to S w is s p o r t? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s a d d t h e B B E E c o m p a n y to S w is s p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To S w i s s p o r t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d S w i s s p o r t h a d – w a s n o t p a r t y t o a n y o f th a t ? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O h t h a t i s a n o t h e r. . CHAIRPERSON: O h t h a t i s a n o th e r t o p ic ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Pr o b l e m o n i ts o w n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright. But they were asking you to add a B B E E c o m p a n y a s – i n to a te n d e r t h a t h a d a lr e a d y D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B e e n a w a r d e d . Page 173 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : Aw a r d e d 1 0 0 % . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To S w i s s p o r t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h ic h i s w h a t … CHAIRPERSON: And you… D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : G a v e r is e to th e d i ffic u l t ie s I w a s having. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To s a y n o w h o w d o I g o in t o ti m e and… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n y w a y in t e r m s o f b e s t p r a c tic e C h a ir t h i s w h o le i s s u e m u s t h a v e b e e n i m p le m e n t e d o r i t m u s t h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e o r ig i n a l R F P. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To s a y t h is i s h o w th e s tr u c tu r e a n d e v e r y t h i n g is g o i n g to lo o k li k e s o t h a t is n o t li k e o n th e e l e v e n t h h o u r 20 o r w a y m u c h l a t e r i n t o t h e w h o le c o n tr a c ti n g h a v in g t o i n tr o d u c e a th ir d p a r t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t a s a t th e t i m e o f t h is m e e ti n g h a d y o u – h a d y o u – w e r e y o u a lr e a d y a w a r e o f e i t h e r o n e o r b o th o f t h e le t t e r s th a t M r H o f m e y r r e f e r r e d y o u t o fr o m Tr e a s u r y f o r – o n e fr o m is i t D D I fr o m t h e B E E c o m m i s s i o n e r a n d t h e o t h e r w a y fr o m t h e C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t Page 174 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 O ff ic e r f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w h i c h in e ffe c t w e r e s a y i n g t h i s 3 0 % p l a n m u s t b e s t o p p e d . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y o n e o f t h o s e le t t e r s a t that stage? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e I e v e n a t t e n d e d o n e o f t h e m e e t in g s w i t h B B B E E c o m m i s s i o n e r w i th t h e a c ti n g C E O then. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ms T h u li M p s h e C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u – d i d y o u k n o w a t t h a t ti m e w h e t h e r e i th e r M s 10 K w in a n a o r M s M e y e n e w a s a w a r e o f a n y o n e o f th o s e le t t e r s a t t h a t ti m e o f th e m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e y w e r e b e c a u s e C h a ir I r e m e m b e r u s g i v i n g f e e d b a c k t o t h e b o a r d r e g a r d i n g t h e is s u e o f t h e s e t a s i d e a s p e r t h e e a r l ie r c o m m u n i c a t io n s w h ic h I b e li e v e w il l b e fo u n d in M s M p s h e ’s b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o y o u w i ll f i n d w e h a v e g o t t w o s e t s o f c o m m u n i c a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e fir s t s e t o f c o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m b o t h i n s t it u ti o n s a r e c o m i n g t o M s M p s h e a s th e a c ti n g C h i e f Ex e c u t iv e O ff ic e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d o b v io u s ly s h e w o u l d s h a r e th a t w i t h m e a s t h e i m p l e m e n te r o f t h o s e r e q u e s ts a n d th e n a t s o m e Page 175 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 m e e ti n g t h e c h a ir s a i d s h e w a s g o i n g t o w r i t e t h e m d ir e c tly b e c a u s e s h e w o u l d n o t a ll o w a n y o n e t o s t o p h e r fr o m – fr o m a c h i e v i n g t h e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a g e n d a . S o I w o u l d l ik e t o b e li e v e th a t s h e m u s t h a v e wrote them and then these were the responses. CHAIRPERSON: B u t i n t e r m s o f t i m in g b e a r in g in m i n d t h a t o n e o f t h o s e le t t e r s w a s a t th e e n d o f S e p t e m b e r. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H m CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e m e e ti n g y o u – w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e r e t h e y g a v e y o u th is i n s tr u c ti o n w a s o n t h e 2 O c to b e r. Ar e y o u c o n fi d e n t 10 t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e w h e r e d u r in g t h a t ti m e – b y t h a t ti m e – b y t h e 2 O c t o b e r t h e y p r o b a b ly w e r e a w a r e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I w o u l d n o t s a y w i th c o n fi d e n c e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t w h a t I k n o w is th e f ir s t s e t o f le t t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h i c h c o n t a i n m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e message. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e y h a d b e e n c o n v e y e d to t h e b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: A n d th o s e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d w h a t ti m e , t h e o n e s y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t , t h e fi r s t le t t e r s ? le t t e r t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r e d t o ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M s [i n d is t in c t] T h u l i ’s l e t t e r. Page 176 of 279 O r y o u m e a n t h e fi r s t 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h in k i t is – i t s h o u l d b e m a y b e e a r l ie r a r o u n d th e m o n th . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b u t y o u s a y th e b o a r d k n e w a b o u t t h e s t u n ts . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m e i th e r D T I D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : D T I CHAIRPERSON: Or… D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t th is 3 0 % s e t a s i d e . 10 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S e t a s i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u l d b e – s h o u ld n o t b e p r o c e e d e d w i t h ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u D o c to r D a h w a . S o I t h i n k in t h e s t o r y w e w e r e a t t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u w e r e t o l d to g o b a c k t o y o u r o ff ic e a n d d r a f t t h e s e le t t e r s o f a w a r d . C a n y o u c o n ti n u e w i t h w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o I w e n t b a c k to t h e o ffi c e lik e I i n d ic a te d e a r li e r a n d I d r a f te d s o m e t h i n g a n d I b r o u g h t 20 it b a c k b u t b e c a u s e o f m y c o n s c ie n c e C h a i r I w o u l d n o t s i g n . S o I s a i d t o th e t w o m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d h e r e is w h a t I t h in k y o u lo o k in g f o r b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly I w il l n o t b e i n a p o s i ti o n t o s ig n . I w o u ld b e h a p p y i f a n y o n e o f y o u c a n a p p e n d t h e ir s ig n a tu r e s t h e n I c a n s e n d o u t t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s . S o a t o n e p o i n t t h e c h a i r a p p e a r e d t o b e li k e g o in g to do it but for some reason she changed her mind. Then she asked me to Page 177 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 g o b a c k a n d r e d o i t m a y b e f o r t h e a c t in g C E O ’s s i g n a t u r e . S o I w e n t b a c k t o my o ffic e – b e f o r e I w e n t t o m y o ffi c e I w e n t to s e e M s M p s h e a s a c t i n g b e c a u s e m y b o s s M r H o f m e y r a p p e a r e d to h a v e n o t b e e n i n t h e o ff ic e a t t h a t p a r tic u la r p o i n t in ti m e . S o I tr ie d t o e x p l a i n t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t I w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h a n d a ll I r e m e m b e r c o m in g fr o m h e r t h a t is Ms M p s h e w a s D o c t o r D a h w a i f y o u k n o w th a t t h i s i s w r o n g I s u g g e s t th a t y o u d o n o t d o a n y t h i n g t h a t is u n l a w f u l b e c a u s e t h i s w i ll c o m e b a c k to y o u a t s o m e ti m e . S o s h e i n s is t e d a n d it w a s i n c l o s e t h e doors. 10 S o I w e n t b a c k a n d ju s t t o t r y a n d b e s e e n t o b e d o in g s o m e t h i n g b e c a u s e b a s ic a l ly C h a i r I w a s b e i n g h e l d a t r a n s o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e w a i t in g fo r y o u ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o I f e l t b e i n g f e l t h e l d r a n s o m . S o I w e n t b a c k t o my o ffi c e I d i d a n o t h e r d r a f t I r e m e m b e r a n d I h a d p u t M s M p s h e ’s c r e d e n t ia ls a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e l e tt e r s o t h a t s h e w o u l d s ig n a n d t h e n s h e s a i d n o s h e w a s n o t g o in g t o s i g n . A n d t h e n t h e c h a ir s a i d l e t u s g o M s M p s h e ’s o ff ic e . S o w e w e n t t o M s M p s h e ’s o ffi c e s h e w a s t h e r e t h e n w e s t a r te d ta lk in g a b o u t th is w h o l e is s u e a n d a g a i n t h e 20 a c ti n g C E O t o l d t h e t w o m e m b e r s th a t s h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o s i g n a n d s h e a l s o a d v is e d m e i n t h e ir f a c e n o t t o s ig n i f m y c o n s c i e n c e to l d m e t h a t t h is w a s u n l a w fu l . A n d I h e l d – I m e a n I a g r e e d w it h h e r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b e c a u s e I k n e w a l s o t h a t t h is w a s n o t th e r ig h t th in g t o d o . A n d th e m e e ti n g w e n t o n a n d t h e y tr ie d to g iv e u s s id e s o f th e ir s t o r ie s a n d a l s o I r e m e m b e r C h a i r m e n ti o n i n g to u s th a t s h e h a d Page 178 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e c e i v e d a n e m a il fr o m s o m e o n e fr o m S w i s s p o r t w h o w a s v e r y h a p p y I t h i n k i t w a s s o m e w h i t e p e r s o n fr o m S w i s s p o r t w h o w a s v e r y e x c i t e d a b o u t t h e a w a r d o f t h is 3 0 % t o t h e B E E c o m p a n y a n d s h e w a s s o s u r p r is e d h o w u s a s b l a c k e x e c u tiv e s w e r e n o t i n s u p p o r t o f t h e i d e a y o u k n o w s h e s a id a l l t h a t a n d th e n Ms M p s h e la t e r o n e x c u s e d h e r s e l f and she said she was going home. I t w a s a Fr i d a y t h is d a y. So she s a i d s h e h a d s o m e o t h e r c o m m i t m e n t s a t h o m e a n d s h e w o u l d n o t s t a y. Yo u k n o w a n d s h e le f t . W e w e r e a c t u a ll y le f t in h e r o ffic e , s h e p a c k e d h e r b a g s a n d o ff s h e w e n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e m e e ti n g w a s n o w in h e r o ff ic e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th e y h a d m o v e d fr o m t h e s m a l le r boardroom. CHAIRPERSON: From the boardroom? D R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : W e h a d m o v e d to a s m a ll e r b o a r d r o o m n o w s o a r e m o v i n g fr o m t h e s m a ll e r b o a r d r o o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To M s M p s h e ’s o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON: So she said … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I am going home. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a s h e r e fu s e d b u t b e f o r e s h e l e f t C h a ir I n e e d t o c o n f ir m s h e s a i d t o m e i n fr o n t o f t h e t w o b o a r d m e m b e r s th a t D o c t o r D a h w a y o u w i ll b e a l o n e i n c o u r t s h o u ld t h is t h i n g c o m e b a c k a n d i f y o u k n o w t h a t th is is w r o n g d o n o t d o i t . Ja she in s is t e d a n d t h e c h a ir tr i e d t o s w e e t t a lk h e r a n d s a y n o b u t y o u k n o w i f Page 179 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n y th in g i s t o c o m e b a c k it w i ll c o m e b a c k t o m e a s th e c h a ir th e n M s M p s h e s t il l i n s is t e d t h a t D o c to r D a h w a w i t h a l l y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s , e x p e r i e n c e a n d c r e d e n t i a ls y o u w il l h a v e t o a n s w e r to t h is o n e d a y a n d in my v ie w i f y o u c o n t e n d a n d i f y o u q u i t e s a t is fi e d t h a t i t i s t h e w r o n g t h i n g t o d o p l e a s e d o n o t d o i t . A n d o ff s h e w e n t . S o I r e m a i n e d w it h t h e tw o b o a r d m e m b e r s a n d t h e y i n s i s te d t h a t I d o s i g n , I r e f u s e d . T h e n t h e y s a i d o k a y m a y b e w h a t w e n e e d t o d o is w e g iv e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty to d o a n u n d e r t a k i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld d o t h i s b y W e d n e s d a y. CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t g i v e y o u a n u n d e r ta k in g – a s k y o u t o g i v e w h a t u n d e r t a k i n g ? Yo u w e r e m a k i n g i t q u it e c l e a r y o u d i d n o t w a n t t o s ig n t h is t h i n g , w e r e y o u n o t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e C h a ir a n d m y h o n e s t v ie w w a s t h e y w e r e tr y i n g to p l a y w i t h m y m in d b e c a u s e t h a t is w h y a t t i m e s t h e y n ic e , t h e y s in g in g p r a i s e s o n t h e o t h e r ti m e y o u k n o w I a m b e i n g to ld o ff t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g s o to m e i t w a s m o r e l ik e a p s y c h o lo g y g a m e w h e r e t h e y w e r e h o p i n g t h a t o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r I w il l e n d u p j u s t d o in g it b u t fr o m w h e r e I w a s s it t in g C h a ir i f I h a d a w a y o f i m p le m e n t in g t h o s e r e s o l u t i o n s w i t h o u t b r e a k i n g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t l a w s I c o u ld h a v e i t d o n e it w i th o u t e v e n t h e e ffo r t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s m y jo b a n d I n e e d e d t o 20 d o m y jo b . A n d a f t e r a ll I w a s n o t p e r m a n e n t s o I n e e d e d t o p r o v e m y n e t t w o r t h b u t I w o u l d n o t d o C h a ir w a s t o b r e a k t h e l a w. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d id t h e y s a y t o y o u t h e t w o b o a r d m e m b e r s w h e n e v e r y o u s a i d b u t th is w i ll – t h is is a g a in s t t h e l a w, t h i s is n o t r ig h t . W h a t – d id y o u e v e r p u t i t lik e t h a t t o th e m ? breaking the – Page 180 of 279 T h is w i th o u t 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s t h e – CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e a s k i n g m e t o b r e a k t h e l a w, y o u a r e a s k i n g m e t o d o s o m e th i n g u n l a w f u l ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C h a ir t h e r e is a l o t o f to a n d fr o e m a i ls b u t o b v i o u s ly f o r t h e s a k e o f th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s w e h a d t o s e le c t w h a t to p r e s e n t o th e r w is e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a b u t i t is c l e a r – m y p o s it i o n h a d b e e n c le a r r i g h t fr o m t h e o n s e t e v e n p r io r t o u s g e t ti n g th e s e a d v i s e s 10 fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y b e c a u s e o n e o f m y k e y r o l e s C h a ir w a s t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e s t a t u te s t h a t r e g u l a te p u b li c s e c to r p r o c u r e m e n t i n S o u th A f r i c a a n d to a d v is e t h e b u s i n e s s a c c o r d i n g l y. S o I d i d a d v is e t h e m t h e r e a r e m e m o r a n d u m s to t h a t e ffe c t w h e r e I e v e n t a lk e d a b o u t the same thing. I th i n k th e r e i s o n e C h a ir w h e r e I e v e n s a i d w e a r e p u t t in g t h e c o m p a n y a t r is k a n d I t h i n k M s K w in a n a r e s p o n d e d a n d s a id t o m e I d i d n o t a s k y o u a b o u t r is k s I s a i d i m p l e m e n t . S o t h is w a s th e c h a l le n g e s I w a s g o i n g th r o u g h . B e c a u s e f o r m e i t w a s a b o u t th e c o m p a n y it w a s a b o u t p r o t e c ti n g th e c o m p a n y, i t w a s a b o u t p r o t e c t in g t h e p o s it i o n s o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s a s w e l l s o I w a s d o i n g m y a d v is o r y 20 r o l e a n d I d id in m a n y t i m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l d i d a n y o n e o f t h e m e v e r s a id s o m e t h i n g to y o u t h a t s u g g e s t e d t h a t s h e i n g o o d f a it h b e li e v e d t h a t y o u w e r e m is t a k e n in th i n k i n g t h a t a g r e e in g to d o w h a t th e y w a n t e d y o u to d o w a s g o i n g t o b e b r e a k i n g t h e l a w a n d t h a t t h e y th o u g h t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h d o i n g t h is t h i n g i t w a s l a w f u l . D i d t h e y e v e r s a y a n y th in g t o y o u t h a t Page 181 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 suggested that in good faith… D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y th o u g h t y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e w r o n g t o s a y t h e y w e r e a s k i n g y o u to b r e a k t h e l a w. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a ir I t h i n k i n t h e ir m i n d s l ik e y o u s a w in th e e a r l i e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o t h e m i t w a s m o r e o f in s u b o r d i n a t io n . I j u s t d o n o t w a n t b u t n o t t h a t th a t w a s t h e c a s e . L i k e I a m s a y i n g r i g h t n o w a n d I w i ll s a y i t C h a ir t h a t i f I h a d a w a y o f i m p l e m e n ti n g i t w it h o u t b r e a k i n g t h e l a w I w o u ld h a v e d o n e it . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d ju s t li k e t o p i c k u p o n o n e a s p e c t t h a t y o u r e f e r e n c e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 o n p a g e 11 b u t I h a v e n o t h e a r d y o u r e f e r to i t i n y o u r r e c o u n t in g o f t h e s t o r y n o w. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 i n th e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s t a t e th e r e : “ I a s k e d h e r h o w I w a s g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o j u s t i fy a p p o i n ti n g p r e - s e l e c t e d e n ti t y w i t h o u t h a v i n g g o n e o u t o n o p e n t e n d e r t o p r o c u r e t h e m o s t e ffe c tiv e 20 s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r f o r S A A . ” Do you see that? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o is t h e p e r s o n y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t t o ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s M s K w i n a n a a n d [i n d is ti n c t ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i s th is s o m e th in g y o u c a n c o n f ir m y o u Page 182 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o n v e y e d in t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t m e e t in g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r te s ti m o n y th u s f a r y o u h a v e r a is e d c o n c e r n s a b o u t le g a l i ti e s . Th is is – I g u e s s a p a r t o f t h e l e g a l i ty p o in t b u t i t is a n e w p o i n t a ls o . I t is a b o u t p r e - s e le c ti n g a n e n t i ty b e f o r e a n y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Pr o c e s s i s f o l lo w e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a s b e e n fo ll o w e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir, tr u e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h a t a n o t h e r o f y o u r c o n c e r n s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s b u t a l l t h e s a m e g iv e n w h e r e w e w e r e w it h t h is p a r ti c u l a r a w a r d a g a i n i t w a s n o t p r a c ti c a l b u t w h y I b r o u g h t u p th is p o i n t t o th e m C h a ir w a s to tr y a n d k n o c k s o m e s e n s e t o s a y y o u k n o w in a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s y o u c a n n o t ju s t g o a r o u n d d is h in g te n d e r s . Yo u h a v e t o f o l l o w a p r o c e s s b e fo r e y o u c a n t h e n s a y I a m g iv i n g to th is p a r ti c u l a r c o m p a n y o r a n y o t h e r. T h a t is – I w a s j u s t tr y i n g to o p e n t h e ir e y e s t o s a y b u t h a n g o n d i d y o u a ls o t a k e t h i s in t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n ? B u t a g a i n t o t h e m i t w a s n o t t a k e n i n g o o d f a it h . I t w a s m o r e lik e I a m j u s t r e f u s i n g b e c a u s e I a m a n t i- tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a n d I 20 t h i n k s o m e w h e r e t h e y l a t e r w e w i ll t a l k a b o u t i t . T h e n m a y b e i f I c a n fi n i s h C h a ir r e g a r d in g th e m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 O c t o b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o f O c to b e r j a . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k a ft e r e v e r y o n e e l s e h a d g o n e n o w t h e r e i s th e t h r e e o f u s o n 6 t h F lo o r t h e n M s M e y e n e s a i d to m e t h a t b y t h e w a y E F F w i ll b e c o m in g h e r e o n M o n d a y, t h e fo ll o w i n g Page 183 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 Monday and they want to get rid of – because they are concerned about t h e tr a n s f o r m a ti o n is s u e s a t S A A a n d t h e y w o u ld w a n t t o g e t r i d o f p e o p l e li k e y o u . Yo u k n o w a n d t h e n M r K w i n a n a i n h e r w o r d s s h e s a i d m e a n d M s M p s h e w e r e g o i n g t o s u ff e r – w e w e r e g o i n g t o g o t h r o u g h a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g b e c a u s e w e h a d r e fu s e d t o o b e y h e r w o r d . So I a ls o g o t a b i t e m o ti o n a l a t t h a t p o i n t a n d t h e n I a s k e d th e m t h a t I n e e d e d to g o b e c a u s e i t w a s a l m o s t a r o u n d s ix , s e v e n - is h a n d I s a i d I n e e d e d t o l e a v e a n d t h e n I j u s t h a d t o d is m is s m y s e l f C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ar o u n d w h a t t i m e w a s i t w h e n M s M p s h e l e f t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S h e l e f t a r o u n d f iv e - i s h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : If m y m e m o r y s e r v e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s ti ll s t a y e d w i th t h e m … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Fo r a l m o s t a n o t h e r h o u r. CHAIRPERSON: With these two for another hour or more? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o c t o r D a h w a C h a ir I n o t e w e a r e j u s t a t f o u r a n d i t m a y b e a n a p p r o p r ia t e t i m e fo r a s h o r t b r e a k b u t c o u ld I j u s t 20 conclude this point. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a g e 1 2 D o c t o r D a h w a if y o u w o u l d i t u p t h e r e . B e c a u s e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 4 a t th e t o p o f t h a t p a g e y o u t a l k a b o u t w h a t Ms M e y e n e h a d s a i d a b o u t th e E F F c o m in g t o m a r c h t o S A A o n M o n d a y. B u t a s I h a v e i t r e f l e c te d t h e r e y o u s t a t e t h a t t h e c h a ir s ta t e d Page 184 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h a t th e E F F w a n t e d a ll t h e Z i m b a b w e a n s o u t o f S o u t h A f r i c a ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h e r e a s p e c i f ic r e fe r e n c e to Z i m b a b w e a n s in t h e c o n te x t o f y o u ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t t o – t o d ir e c tl y t o m e b u t o b v i o u s l y I w a s t h e o n ly Zi m b a b w e a n C h a i r i n t h a t r o o m s o i f y o u m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o Zi m b a b w e a n d w h e n t h e r e is o n e Z i m b a b w e a n i m p li e d l y I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o m e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u – w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o 10 m e a n ? W e r e y o u a c t u a l ly a fr a id o f y o u r s a f e t y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. B e c a u s e w h a t y o u w i ll fi n d t h e n is I h a d to r a i s e th is w i t h m y li n e m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e f o l lo w in g M o n d a y I d i d n o t e v e n t u r n u p to w o r k b e c a u s e I w a s n o t j u s t s u r e a s t o w h e t h e r w h a t th e y w e r e s a y in g w a s r e a l o r w a s g o i n g t o m a t e r i a lis e o r if n o t b u t y o u k n o w l i fe b e i n g li f e I n e e d e d t o t a k e p r e c a u t i o n s measure. CHAIRPERSON: What day of the week was the second of 2 October t h a t m e e ti n g w a s i t a Fr i d a y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It m u s t h a v e b e e n a Fr i d a y C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e w i ll ta k e a te n m i n u t e s b r e a k a n d r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES Page 185 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: We may proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h a s i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I a m – I a m o p ti m i s t ic t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w i ll b e a b le t o c o m p l e t e t h i s e v e n i n g w i t h a li t tl e b i t m o r e t i m e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t in d u l g e n c e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a y o u m e n ti o n e d ju s t b e f o r e w e b r o k e t h a t y o u r a is e d y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t y o u r s a f e t y w i th y o u r D i r e c t L in e M a n a g e r – Mr M e y e r. D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e to t a k e y o u to t h a t e m a il t h a t y o u s e n t to h i m a n d y o u w il l fi n d i t u n d e r Ta b 9 i n y o u r f il e w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 1 6 a n d i t is a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 6 . 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e i t – it is a n e m a il t h a t y o u s e n t t o M r M e y e r a t 4 7 m i n u t e s p a s t s e v e n o n t h e m o r n in g o f 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e e m a il ? Page 186 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : “Urgent Matter fo r Yo u r C o n s i d e r a t io n ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d id y o u r e l a y t o M r M e y e r i n th is email? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I did present to him about my e x p e r i e n c e t h e p r e v io u s F r i d a y a n d th e is s u e s t h a t h a d b e e n r a i s e d a n d a ls o w h e t h e r m y – w h e t h e r I w a s s a fe t o c o m e t o w o r k b e c a u s e I d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h is w a s g o in g t o h a p p e n b u t o b v io u s ly t h e m a s b e in g m y s e n i o r s t h e y m a y h a v e h a d a n id e a th a t E F F w a s c o m in g t o d o t h e 10 m a r c h e s a n d a l l t h o s e k in d o f t h i n g s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c a n ju s t p ic k it u p a t t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f t h e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h a s I r e a d i t t h e r e y o u s t a te t o M r M e y e r : “ I w a s a d v is e d t h a t t h e y w il l b e d e m o n s tr a t in g … ” I ta k e t h a t t o b e a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e E F F. I s th a t c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ T h a t th e E F F w il l b e d e m o n s t r a t in g t h a t t h e r e is n o tr a n s fo r m a ti o n i n S A A b e c a u s e o f p e o p l e l ik e m e i n s e n i o r p o s i ti o n s a s t h e r e is n o S o u th A fr ic a n s holding such p o s i ti o n s in Zi m b a b w e . ” 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is t h a t w h a t w a s c o n v e y e d t o y o u th e p r e v i o u s Fr id a y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r. I h a d a c t u a ll y o m i tt e d t h a t but yes that did happen. Page 187 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u g o o n to s a y : “Seeing the recent violence a g a in s t foreign n a t io n a l s I f e e l e n d a n g e r e d . ” Do you see that? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r ? D i d y o u r e tu r n t o w o r k a f t e r th a t M o n d a y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s I d i d r e t u r n t o w o r k o n t h e Tu e s d a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e r e t u r n t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t i f w e m a y I w o u ld lik e … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e ju s t r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y w h a t w a s th e b a s i s o n w h ic h y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h th e t w o M e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d h a d e n d e d o n Fr id a y 2 O c t o b e r o t h e r th a n M s M y e n i s a y in g to y o u t h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n in g – M o n d a y E F F w o u l d b e h a v in g a d e m o n s t r a t io n ? W a s th e r e a w a y f o r w a r d o n th e b a s is o f w h i c h th e m e e ti n g e n d e d o r w a s i t s i m p ly t h a t th e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a d e m o n s tr a ti o n ? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th e s e w e r e l ik e th e c l o s i n g r e m a r k s C h a ir fr o m t h e t w o M e m b e r s . M s K w in a n a ta lk e d a b o u t - ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – i n t e n t io n s t o p u t m e a n d M s M p s h e o n d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g a n d t h e C h a i r s p o k e a b o u t t h e E F F c o m i n g t o d o t h e m a r c h e s a n d t h e i s s u e a b o u t t h e r e b e i n g n o S o u t h A fr i c a n i n Zi m b a b w e h o ld in g a p o s i t io n o f my l e v e l t h o s e w e r e w o r d s f r o m M s – Page 188 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M s – t h e B o a r d C h a i r – M s My e n i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M y e n i ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t d i d n o t c o m e fr o m Ms Kwinana. CHAIRPERSON: W o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t th e m e e ti n g – w h e n t h e m e e t i n g e n d e d n o m a t t e r w h a te v e r m a y h a v e s a i d – b e e n s a i d b e f o r e o r d u r i n g t h e m e e t in g a t s o m e o r o t h e r s ta g e - a n d y o u s a id t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e t h e C h a ir w a s p r a is in g y o u o r s o m e th in g – n o m a t te r w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n s a i d b e f o r e w h e n th e m e e ti n g e n d e d it w a s o n a 10 c le a r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t y o u w e r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o d o w h a t t h e y w a n te d you to do? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r b u t t h e y h a d a lr e a d y m a d e m e m a k e a n u n d e r t a k in g – y o u r e m e m b e r I s a i d – t h a t I w o u ld a d d r e s s t h is o n Fr i d a y. I th in k s o m e w h e r e n o w a s I a m m a k i n g a r e c o ll e c t io n C h a ir I h a d a ls o s a id I d o n o t h a v e c e r t a i n t e m p la t e s b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r i t w a s a lo n g e n d o f d a y a n d a l l my C a te g o r y M a n a g e r s w h o k e p t t h e v a r i o u s t e m p l a t e s fo r c o n tr a c t s a n d a ll t h e s e t h in g s h a d l e f t f o r t h e d a y. S o I d id n o t s a y t h a t I w a s n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to d o a n y f u r t h e r 20 w o r k s o th e y d i d n o t s a y to m e d o a n u n d e r t a k i n g th a t b y W e d n e s d a y t h e s e l e tt e r s h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d w h i c h I d i d . I remember doing that a n d th e C h a ir to o k t h a t p i e c e o f p a p e r. CHAIRPERSON: O h , s o t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t o n e , M s K w i n a n a s a i d th e r e w o u l d b e d is c i p l i n a r y a c t io n a g a i n s t y o u a n d Ms Mpshe? Page 189 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o , t h e – M s M y e n i s a i d th e E F F w a s g o i n g t o h o l d a d e m o n s t r a t io n th e fo ll o w i n g M o n d a y … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n t h e b a s i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n th e b a s is t h a t t h e r e w a s n o tr a n s fo r m a ti o n i n S A A b e c a u s e o f p e o p le lik e y o u ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h r e e t h a t t h e y h a d a s k e d y o u t o s ti ll d o t h e le t t e r s a n d y o u u n d e r t o o k t o d o t h e le t t e r s b y w h e n - t h e l e t t e r b y 10 Wednesday? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : By W e d n e s d a y y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is t h e b a s is o n w h ic h t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u – w h e n y o u u n d e r t o o k to d o t h e l e t t e r s – t h e l e tt e r s w a s t h a t y o u r tr u e i n t e n t io n ? Yo u h a d d e c i d e d y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d o th a t o r w a s i t n o t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It w a s n o t tr u e C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t I w a s g o in g to d o i t b u t y o u s e e 20 g iv e n w h a t I w a s g o in g th r o u g h I t h i n k th a t w a s d u r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I m e a n I a m a p r o f e s s io n a l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Yo u s p e a k o n c e C h a ir I h e a r i t t w ic e … Page 190 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d o b v i o u s ly w it h a l l d u e r e s p e c t t o t h e h i g h e s t o ffi c e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d e fi n i t e ly w a s g o i n g t o d o i t i f I h a d t h e c a p a c i ty t o d o i t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : E v e n i f i t m e a n t le a v in g t h e o ffi c e a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To p l e a s e m y s u p e r i o r s . I have no p r o b le m s w i t h t h a t. F o r t h e l a s t 2 0 y e a r s C h a ir t h a t is th e l i fe o f b e i n g a n E x e c u t iv e b u t I w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o f in d a w a y o f b e in g r e l e a s e d s o t h a t I c a n g o h o m e a n d h a v e a - a r e fr e s h e d b r e a k a n d t h e n m a y b e s e e it w h e n i t c o m e s b a c k a g a in . CHAIRPERSON: O h y o u – y o u w a n t e d t o - to b e r e l e a s e d fr o m t h e m e e ti n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 And whether or not you would end up doing it was s o m e t h i n g y o u w a n t e d t o g iv e t h o u g h t l a te r o n ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o s o r r y I … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. Page 191 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t t h a t I w a s g o i n g to d o i t la t e r. L ik e I in d i c a t e d C h a i r i n m y p r e s e n t a t i o n r ig h t b e f o r e w e h a v e D T I a n d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y c o m i n g t o t e l l u s th a t t h is is i ll e g a l. A l l m y y e a r s a s p r o f e s s i o n a l a s a n a d v is o r i n th e p u b l ic s e c t o r p r o c u r e m e n t I k n e w th a t it w a s w r o n g . Yo u w o u ld f i n d t h e r e is a l o t o f e m a i ls t h a t I w r o te t o t h e B o a r d a d v is in g th e m t h a t i t w a s n o t p r o p e r b u t n o w t h e c o m i n g i n o f D TI a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n m y v i e w w a s m o r e l ik e r e li e f . 10 So I thought n o w t h a t i t i s c o m i n g fr o m t h e c u s t o d i a n s o f th e v a r io u s p o l ic ie s w e a r e tr y i n g t o p u r s u e s o m e o n e w a s g o i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d b u t s t il l th e y w e r e a d a m a n t th a t t h e y w a n t e d m e t o d o i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o b u t w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d is I a m q u i te c le a r t h a t f o r a l o n g t i m e y o u r s ta n d w a s c l e a r t h a t y o u w e r e n o t going to do it? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u s a y t h a t t h e m e e t in g d i d e n d i n p a r t o n t h e b a s is t h a t e i t h e r y o u w e r e g o in g to d o i t o r y o u w e r e g o i n g t o c o n s i d e r d o i n g it . T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e i s . 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s i t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: So then our – then I asked you whether when you – w h e n th e m e e ti n g e n d e d y o u tr u l y i n t e n d e d d o in g i t o r n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I w a s n o t g o in g to d o i t C h a ir. Page 192 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t i n te n d t o d o i t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u – y o u w a n te d a w a y to e n d t h e m e e ti n g s o that … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d g o ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It h a d b e e n a v e r y lo n g d a y a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th is is o n ly j u s t t h a t I a m t e ll in g i t a s 10 a s to r y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t g o in g t h r o u g h s u c h p r e s s u r e w a s n o t a n e a s y t h i n g f o r m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h i s m e e t in g e n d e d – b y t h e t i m e i t e n d e d i t h a d ta k e n h o w m a n y h o u r s i f y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e w h o l e th in g s t a r t e d a r o u n d 1 0 i n t h e m o r n in g . I h a d ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r te d a t a b o u t 1 0 i n t h e m o r n i n g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . I h a d th o s e S M S o n m y c o m p a n y 20 phone but … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o o n a f t e r t h e y p u t m e o n s u s p e n s io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e y to o k a w a y e v e r y th i n g a n d I c o u l d Page 193 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s a v e th a t b u t i t s t a r t e d in t h e m o r n in g . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u w e n t t o t h e m e e t in g t h in k i n g y o u w e r e g o i n g t o m e e t M s K w i n a n a o n ly … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t a r o u n d 1 0 in t h e m o r n in g ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e o c c u p ie d w i t h th is is s u e f o r u p t o a b o u t s ix , s e v e n in t h e a f te r n o o n ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : In t h e e v e n i n g . Ye s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: And that must be in the region of how many hours? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t e ig h t h o u r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t – a b o u t p r o b a b ly m o r e th a n fiv e h o u r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t e ig h t h o u r s o r s o m a y b e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O f t h a t p e r io d o f a b o u t e i g h t h o u r s o r s o h o w m u c h ti m e d o y o u th in k y o u s p e n d a w a y fr o m t h e ir p r e s e n c e – t h e p r e s e n c e of the two Members of the Board? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 I t h i n k v e r y l it t le o f t h e t i m e . I t w a s o n ly w h e n I w o u l d g o to m y o ff ic e t o tr y a n d c r a c k a r o u n d c o m i n g u p w i t h s o m e th i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : that it was wrong. Ja. W h ic h I h a d a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d S o I d id n o t k n o w w h a t th e y w a n t e d C h a ir t o b e honest. Page 194 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: S o p le a s e h e lp m e I a m v e r y i n t e r e s te d i n g e t ti n g a p ic t u r e . W h e n y o u p u t to g e t h e r a ll t h e ti m e t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e s p e n t a w a y f r o m t h e m b e t w e e n 1 0 in t h e m o r n i n g w h e n y o u s ta r t e d th e m e e ti n g w it h M s K w i n a n a a n d w h e n t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d w o u l d y o u – i f y o u e s t i m a t e – w o u ld y o u – h o w m a n y h o u r s d o y o u – d i d y o u – d o y o u t h i n k y o u s p e n t a w a y fr o m th e ir p r e s e n c e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k ju s t a b o u t a n h o u r. CHAIRPERSON: About an hour all together? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , a c c u m u la t iv e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u g e t a c h a n c e to h a v e y o u r l u n c h ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r d a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r d a y C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B e c a u s e I – I a t o n e p o i n t w h e n I l e f t I tr i e d to l o o k fo r m y b o s s – t h e C F O . I c o u l d n o t f in d h i m . T h e n m u c h la t e r I t h o u g h t I n e e d j u s t to g o a n d s e e t h e A c ti n g C E O … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 W h ic h is w h y I t h e n w e n t t o s e e M s M p s h e b u t I w a s r e a ll y s tr e s s e d t o b e v e r y h o n e s t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h r o u g h o u t a l l t h e s e h o u r s t h e r e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h is is s u e o r th e r e w o u l d s o m e t i m e s b e j u s t c o m p l e t e s i le n c e i n the room? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M s K w in a n a e v e n a t o n e p o i n t w a s d r a f t in g t h e a w a r d l e tt e r s a n d t e l li n g m e – l e c tu r i n g m e o n m o d e l s , Page 195 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p o s s i b il it i e s , m a k i n g a d j u s t m e n ts . I f i t c a n n o t b e 1 5 p e r c e n t w h a t i f w e d o 1 0 p e r c e n t – y o u k n o w - a l l th is k i n d o f t h i n g . S o i t w a s m o r e li k e a – a le c t u r e o n h o w I c a n m a k e i t w o r k . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a ; b u t a t le a s t w i t h M s K w i n a n a w e w e r e e x c h a n g in g - w e w e r e t a l k i n g . W h e n t h e C h a ir c a m e s h e d id n o t w a n t t o t a lk . S h e s a id s h e w o u l d g i v e m e a ir ti m e a f te r I h a v e m a d e ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l a t e r o n s h e w a s p r a i s in g y o u . Is i t n o t? 10 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a ; b u t i t w a s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To w a r d s t h e e n d t h in k i n g t h a t m a y b e I w o u ld s o f t e n u p … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d s t il l i n d u lg e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f t h e c o m p a n y t h a t th e y w a n t e d y o u t o a w a r d th e – t o g iv e – t o a w a r d t h e t e n d e r to a s a B E E c o m p a n y ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e r e w e r e t w o c o m p a n ie s C h a ir f o r t h e S w is s p o r t c o n tr a c t i t w a s J a m ic r o n ( P ty ) L t d a n d f o r t h e E n g e n j e t 20 f u e l c o n tr a c t i t w a s Q u i n te s s e n t ia l … CHAIRPERSON: So … D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : ( In t e r v e n e s ) L i m i t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o th o s e w e r e t h e c o m p a n ie s t o w h ic h th e y w e r e s a y in g w r i t e l e t t e r s a w a r d in g th e m t h e c o n tr a c t a s B E E p a r tn e r s t o – t o S w is s p o r t? Page 196 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s – t h a t w a s – s o r r y C h a ir. T h a t w a s to S w is s p o r t a n d E n g e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Swissport and Engen? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S w is s p o r t – S w is s p o r t’s p a r t n e r w a s J a m ic r o n a n d E n g e n ’s p a r t n e r w a s Q u in t e s s e n ti a l . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d D r D a h w a y o u t h e n in d ic a t e - w e a r e a t p a g e 1 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t – w h a t f o l l o w e d a fe w d a y s la t e r because as I have at paragraph 36 on that page – we are at page 12 of t h e a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t a s a m a t t e r o f in t e r e s t d i d t h e d e m o n s tr a ti o n t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d s a id w o u l d h a p p e n b y th e E F F o n th e M o n d a y t a k e p l a c e fr o m w h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n t o l d b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o t a t w o r k ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a , I d i d c h e c k C h a ir a n d I w a s a d v is e d th a t n o t h i n g li k e t h a t h a p p e n e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a t p a g e 1 2 i f y o u p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 y o u t a lk a b o u t a n e m a il t h a t M s K w i n a n a s e n t w i t h a le t t e r o f c o m p l a i n t a tt a c h e d . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e u s t o t h a t l e t te r o f Page 197 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 c o m p la i n t a n d y o u w il l fi n d i t u n d e r Ta b 1 0 a t p a g e 2 4 0 – 2 - 4 - 0 . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir ju s t t o o r ie n ta t e u s t h is l e t te r is a n a tt a c h m e n t t o th e e m a il t h a t y o u fi n d o n t h e p r e c e d i n g p a g e – 2 - 3 - 9 – in w h i c h M s K w i n a n a s e n d s a c o m p la in t l e tt e r t o M s M y e n i b u t I w o u l d lik e f o r o u r p u r p o s e s n o w to c o n c e n tr a t e o n t h e l e t te r it s e l f w h i c h y o u fi n d a t p a g e 2 - 4 - 0 a n d C h a ir w i th y o u r le a v e I p r o p o s e – i t i s q u i t e a le n g t h y le t t e r – b u t t h e r e is a l o t o f i t th a t i s i m p o r ta n t . S o m y s u g g e s t i o n is t h a t I h ig h li g h t t h o s e a s p e c t s w h ic h 10 r e l a t e p a r t ic u l a r ly t o t h e e v i d e n c e w e h a v e h e a r d t h u s f a r fr o m D r D a h w a a n d t h e n o ff e r h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty to c o m m e n t o n w h a t M s K w i n a n a i s r e c o r d in g i n t h is le t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f w e p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s is . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I r e a d th e l e tt e r th e r e is fir s t o f a ll a r e fe r e n c e t o t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s w h i c h i s w h e r e y o u r e v i d e n c e b e g a n o n t h i s w h o le 3 0 p e r c e n t s e t- a s i d e D r D a h w a . So M s K w i n a n a s e ts t h a t o u t in i ti a l ly i n h e r l e tt e r t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d 20 t h e n i f w e p ic k i t u p r i g h t a t t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 2 - 4 - 0 s h e writes: “ H a v i n g n o t e d a l l t h i s i t is s a d f o r m e to s e e k a n s w e r s fr o m y o u C h a i r p e r s o n w h e r e i n p a r ti c u la r I w o u ld l ik e to report Dr Masimba Dahwa. th e f o l l o w in g about O n e , h e li e d t h a t t h e j e t f u e l Page 198 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t e n d e r i s i n c lu s i v e o f s ix s tr e a m s w h e r e a s o n f u r th e r i n q u ir y t h e j e t f u e l te n d e r is j u s t s u p p ly o f je t f u e l . Tw o , I u s e t h e a b o v e l i e s t o c o m m u n ic a te t h a t t h is t e n d e r h a s s ix s tr e a m s to S M M E s t o w h o m the Board awarded the 15 percent tender of jet fuel. T h r e e , th e s e l ie s t h a t I c o m m u n ic a t e d t o a r o o m w i t h m o r e 6 0 p e o p l e h a s a n e ffe c t o f b r i n g i n g m y name, the C h a ir p e r s o n ’s name, G o v e r n m e n t ’s n a m e in t o d is r e p u t e . 10 SAA and the As there are n o w i n q u ir i e s w h e r e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s w a n t t o k n o w t h e w a y f o r w a r d in r e s p e c t o f l o g i s t ic s a n d o t h e r s tr e a m s a s c o m m u n ic a t e d b y m y s e l f a s p e r t h e m is le a d i n g i n fo r m a ti o n provided by Dr Dahwa. F o u r, h e a ls o l i e d a n d m a d e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o b e li e v e t h a t t h e a w a r d le t t e r s to th e t e n d e r e r s w e r e s ig n e d w h e r e a s t h e r e w e r e n o l e tt e r s . F i v e , w h e n I asked about th e status of Board Resolution i m p l e m e n ta t io n h e l i e d a n d s a i d th a t th e d e l a y s a r e with 20 legal. I s u b s e q u e n tl y asked legal who in f o r m e d m e i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f D r D a h w a th a t t h e y a r e w a i t in g f o r D r D a h w a . S ix , h e tr a v e ll e d w i th u s o n t r a n s f o r m a t io n r o a d s h o w s a n d w h e n w e w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g t h e B o a r d d e c i s i o n s h e a ls o c l a p p e d h is h a n d s k n o w i n g v e r y w e l l t h a t h e w o u l d n o t w r it e t h e a w a r d l e t te r s w h i c h I l a te r d is c o v e r e d t h a t h e Page 199 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w o u ld n o t w r i t e a s h e s a i d m y c o n s c i o u s d o e s n o t a l lo w m e . S e v e n , t h e a b o v e s ta t e m e n t i n s i n u a t e d t h a t t h e B o a r d r e q u ir e d h i m t o d o u n p r o f e s s io n a l , u n e t h ic a l, il le g a l a n d c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ti e s . ” C h a ir I p r o p o s e w e s t o p t h e r e . T h e r e a r e a f e w m o r e a s p e c t s I w o u ld lik e to p ic k u p b u t D r D a h w a c a n y o u j u s t h e lp u s w i t h t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o t h is j e t fu e l t e n d e r a n d w h a t y o u d i d o r d i d n o t s a y t o M s K w i n a n a a b o u t s i x s tr e a m s i n v o l v e d i n t h e je t fu e l v a l u e c h a in ? CHAIRPERSON: One second. Before you respond … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . CHAIRPERSON: D r D a h w a p l e a s e d o n o t fo r g e t t h e a n s w e r y o u w a n t t o g iv e . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a t h e q u e s ti o n w a s to a s s i s t u s in u n d e r s t a n d in g t h is b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e a l le g a t io n t h a t y o u li e d a b o u t t h e je t fu e l t e n d e r b e i n g in c l u s iv e o f s ix s tr e a m s . W h a t w a s t h a t a b o u t? 20 D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I r e m e m b e r o n e d a y w e w e r e tr a v e l li n g w i th M s K w i n a n a a n d I t h i n k D r Ta m b i w a s th e r e a n d w e m u s t h a v e b e e n g o i n g t o C a p e To w n fo r s o m e th in g . T h e n s h e a s k e d m e t o g o w h e r e s h e w a s . I m e a n I w a s l i k e s e a t e d a t t h e b a c k in – i n t h e – o n th e a ir c r a f t a n d s h e w a s s o m e w h e r e i n fr o n t . S o I w e n t a n d then we started talking. Page 200 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 S o s h e w a s a s k in g m e a b o u t t h e s e w h o l e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n is s u e s a n d y o u k n o w o u t o f c o m m i t m e n t a n d o u t o f d u ty I t h e n a s k e d tr i e d t o s h a r e w i th h e r p o s s ib il i ti e s o f e x p l o r in g s u s t a i n a b ly t h e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n o f th e je t f u e l v a l u e c h a i n a n d in o u r d is c u s s i o n – y o u k n o w – to m e i t w a s ju s t a n o r d in a r y E x e c u t iv e d is c u s s i o n w h i c h h a p p e n s w i t h m a n y p e o p le e i th e r i n t h e c a r o r o n t h e b u s o r w h e r e v e r y o u a r e g o i n g w h e r e y o u a r e e x p lo r i n g c e r t a i n t h in g s b u t o b v io u s ly I – I d i d i n d i c a t e th e p o s s ib il it y – t h e p o s s i b l e a r e a s w h e r e w e c o u l d l o o k a t a n d w h y I t o o k a m u c h b r o a d e r s p e c tr u m o f t h e je t f u e l v a lu e c h a in 10 C h a ir is b e c a u s e w e h a d a l s o s i g n e d – S A A h a d s i g n e d a n M O U w i t h t h e D TI a n d w e h a d a lr e a d y p u t to g e t h e r a t a s k f o r c e w h i c h w a s t h e n g o i n g t o t r y a n d e x p lo r e v a r i o u s o p p o r t u n i t ie s f o r tr a n s f o r m a t i o n . T h e n I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll i n d ic a ti n g t o M s K w i n a n a t h a t j e t f u e l is s u c h a d e lic a t e k i n d o f p r o d u c t a n d w e n e e d e d t o l o o k a t i t fr o m v a r io u s a n g l e s a s o p p o s e d t o j u s t s a y w e d o tr a n s fo r m a ti o n n o w a n d w h a t I w a s j u s t e x p lo r i n g is m a y b e w e n e e d to l o o k a t s c o p e a p o s s i b il it y o f tr a n s fo r m in g t h e in t o w i n g p a r t o f t h e – o f t h e v a l u e c h a i n o r t h e d is tr ib u ti o n p a r t o f t h e v a l u e c h a i n o r t h e s t o r a g e o r a n y th i n g – y o u k n o w. 20 T h a t is w h e r e I w a s c o m i n g f r o m b u t t o m y s u r p r is e n o w Ms Kwinana took it as a presentation to the Board but I was just e x p l o r in g o p p o r t u n i ti e s a n d p o s s i b il it i e s w h ic h o b v i o u s ly a s a s u p p l y c h a i n p r o fe s s i o n a l s h e n e e d e d t o t a s k m e m a y b e a t s o m e p o in t t o s a y D r D a h w a c a n y o u n o w d o a p a p e r - w h i c h is t h e u s u a l tr e n d - o f h o w y o u th in k y o u c o u ld tr a n s fo r m t h e je t f u e l b u t u n f o r tu n a te ly i t d i d n o t Page 201 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w o r k th a t w a y. When we went to Durban now the whole agenda item had b e e n h ij a c k e d p r e m a t u r e ly a n d t h e n s h e s t a r te d s a y in g w e w a n t t o g iv e y o u t h is b u s i n e s s . T h a t is w h e r e n o w t h e w h o l e 6 8 – I m e a n – t h e 6 0 c o m p a n i e s t h a t a t te n d e d - th e Q u i n t e s s e n ti a l - a l l th e s e t h i n g s s t a r te d c o m i n g i n t o p la y b u t I t h in k s h e m is l e d h e r s e l f e v e n b y m a k in g t h o s e c o m m i t m e n ts t o th e p e o p l e b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t e v e n f u l ly e x p l o r e d a n d t h e n I s h a r e d w i th h e r. I w a s l ik e ta lk in g t o a N o n - Ex e c u ti v e B o a r d M e m b e r w h o I 10 h a d s e e n i n m y v i e w h a d p a s s io n t o d o th e t r a n s f o r m a t io n a n d i n t e r ms o f tr y i n g t o s e e t h e w h o l e th in g c o m e t o f r u i ti o n . I ju s t m e n t io n e d t h a t ja w e c o u l d l o o k i n to t h e s e o p t i o n s a n d e v e r y t h i n g b u t t o my s u r p r is e i n t h is l e t te r i t c a m e b a c k n o w a s a li e a n d C h a ir my v ie w w a s i t b e c a m e a li e s i m p l y b e c a u s e I h a d s a i d I c a n n o t a w a r d w i th o u t fo ll o w i n g a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . I f I h a d a w a r d e d I d o n o t th in k I c o u l d h a v e b e e n c h a r g e d fo r h a v in g l ie d . CHAIRPERSON: A r e y o u s a y i n g th a t w h e n y o u w e r e h a v in g t h i s c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th h e r i n - o n th e p l a n e y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g i n g e n e r a l? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t t h a t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g o n th e b a s i s o f s p e c i f ic a w a r d s b e i n g m a d e a lr e a d y. Yo u w e r e j u s t ta lk in g g e n e r a l D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: On the understanding that if it became necessary to g o in t o s p e c i f ic s t h e n y o u c o u ld d e a l w i th t h a t a t t h a t s ta g e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a i r a n d w h y lik e I s a i d I t o o k a Page 202 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 b r o a d e r s p e c t r u m is b e c a u s e w e n o w h a d a t h i r d p a r t y w h ic h i s D T I a n d s o – y o u k n o w – it g o e s w i t h th e t a s k f o r c e . W e s ti ll n e e d e d t o tr y a n d e x p l o r e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t h r o u g h t h e ta s k f o r c e . S e e h o w f a r w e c a n g o a n d m a y b e c o m e u p w it h t h e p r o p o s a l w h ic h i n m y v ie w w a s a g a i n i n s u p p o r t o f t h e t r a n s f o r m a t io n . I c o u ld v e r y s i m p ly h a v e s a i d I d o n o t know … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : But I just wanted to – to explore p o s s i b le o p p o r t u n i ti e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir j u s t w i t h a r e f e r e n c e b a c k to s o m e e v i d e n c e w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d fr o m M r Va u g h a n w h o l o o k e d a t th a t w h o le s u p p l y c h a i n o n t h e j e t f u e l a s p e c t . I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t h e c o m e s a ft e r in t i m e t o t h is e n g a g e m e n t w i t h D r D a h w a b u t t h e r e is g r e a t s i m il a r it y in th e e v id e n c e t h a t w e r e c e i v e d fr o m Mr Va u g h a n a b o u t w h e r e i n t h e v a l u e c h a i n y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o i n tr o d u c e t r a n s f o r m a t io n in it i a t iv e s a n d t h e e v id e n c e t h a t D r D a h w a h a s j u s t g iv e n u s . D r D a h w a w e t h e n m o v e o n f r o m t h a t b a c k g r o u n d – th a n k y o u f o r t h a t – t o s o m e o f t h e o th e r a ll e g a t i o n s m a d e i n t h o s e s e v e n p o in ts . 20 I w o u l d li k e to f o c u s n o w o n t h e a l l e g e d li e s y o u m a d e i n r e la t io n t o th e a w a r d l e tt e r s a n d t h e a l l e g a ti o n t h a t y o u s a i d y o u w e r e g o i n g t o ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a ll e g e d m a d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A ll e g e d ly, i n d e e d , in d e e d – a p o lo g ie s . T h a t t h e a l le g e d l ie i s th a t y o u h a d s a i d t h a t th e y w e r e s i g n e d w h e r e t h e y w e r e Page 203 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 n o t s i g n e d a n d t h a t y o u h a d s a id th e y w e r e w it h l e g a l w h e n y o u w e r e t h e c a u s e o f t h e d e l a y. W h a t i s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th o s e a l le g a ti o n s ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I th i n k C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d ( in d i s ti n c t) p r a c t ic e o v e r t h e l a s t 2 0 y e a r s a te n d e r c a n o n ly b e a w a r d e d o n c e n o t t w ic e n o t t h r i c e u n le s s y o u t e r m i n a te i t . Yo u r e d o t h e p r o c e s s a n d t h e n y o u a w a r d a g a i n . Something along t h o s e li n e s . S o w h e n I w a s a s k e d a t t h e D u r b a n S u m m i t - I th i n k th is is w h e r e i t e m a n a t e d fr o m – b e c a u s e fr o m n o w h e r e t h e y s a i d o h D r D a h w a 10 h a v e y o u a w a r d e d t h e c o n tr a c t f o r S w i s s p o r t a n d I s a i d y e s . I n a s f a r a s I k n o w a n d e v e n t o t h is d a y C h a ir t h e S w is s p o r t c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d i n J u ly 2 0 1 2 a n d th e r e is n o w a y i t is g o i n g to b e r e a w a r d e d a g a in . S o th a t is w h a t I m e a n t . CHAIRPERSON: Had it been – were you there when the decision to award it was taken? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o I w a s n o t th e r e b u t I m e t s o m e fr a n t ic e ff o r t t o d i g i n to th e w h o l e t e n d e r t h e n a n d I u n d e r s t o o d i t li k e t h e b a c k o f m y h a n d C h a ir in t e r m s o f w h a t t r a n s p i r e d . T h i s p a c k h o w it lo o k e d li k e , w h a t i t e n t a il e d r i g h t u p t o t h e ti m e w h e n th e a w a r d w a s 20 done. S o I h a d th a t in f o r m a t io n a n d th e v a r i o u s B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n s t h a t p e r t a i n e d to it . Yo u a l s o fi n d t h a t . I think there are more than fi v e /s ix B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n s e v e n t h e r e a f t e r w h ic h I a ls o f o u n d to b e ir r e g u l a r a n d a b i t c o n f u s i n g i n te r m s o f o u r p r a c ti c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D r D a h w a … Page 204 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W a s t h a t q u e s t io n a t t h e s u m m i t n o t m a d e in t h e c o n te x t o f a w a r d i n g i t a r o u n d t h a t ti m e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : What – what I think Chair I think the B o a r d M e m b e r t h e m s e lv e s s h o u l d n o t – s h o u ld – s o r r y – o k a y. A t t h a t ti m e C h a ir I t h in k t h e B o a r d M e m b e r c h o s e t o mi s l e a d t h e m s e l v e s b e c a u s e s h e k n e w v e r y w e l l th a t w e h a d n o t d o n e a n y p r o c u r e m e n t f o r – f o r S w is s p o r t t e n d e r f o r e x a m p l e . S o t o a s k m e t o s a y r e a w a r d e d i t . W h a t w o u l d I h a v e a w a r d e d b e c a u s e t h e y a lr e a d y h a d s e e n t h e - t h e c r i t e r i a ? T h e y h a d a lr e a d y g o n e t h r o u g h t h e v a r i o u s s t a g e s o f 10 t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . S o t o a s k m e s u c h a q u e s ti o n C h a ir i n f r o n t o f m a n y d i ff e r e n t p e o p le i t is – i t is a ls o li k e p u tt i n g m e o n t h e s p o tli g h t . I c a n n o t a r g u e b u t I c a n o n ly a ffir m w h a t I k n o w a s f a c t a n d t o m e t h e f a c t is t h a t c o n tr a c t y e s i t w a s a w a r d e d in J u l y 2 0 1 2 a n d it i s not – had not to be awarded again. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Dr Dahwa if we can then m o v e o n f u r th e r in t h e le t t e r o f M s K w i n a n a a n d it is th e l e t te r d a te d 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . I a m p ic k i n g i t u p a t p a g e 2 - 4 - 1 o f y o u r B u n d l e D D 1 6 . D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Yo u w i ll s e e u n d e r p o i n t s e v e n i t i s r e c o r d there that Ms Kwinana wrote: “ C h a ir p e r s o n I a m a ls o s a i d t h a t a t B o a r d le v e l w e h a v e t o m ic r o m a n a g e t h e Ex e c u ti v e s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e n o n - i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f o u r B o a r d R e s o lu ti o n s in general.” D r D a h w a d id y o u e x p e r i e n c e a le v e l o f m ic r o m a n a g e m e n t fr o m t h e Page 205 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 B o a r d a t th a t ti m e ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d i t r e l a te t o ? D R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : For me I found it to be awkward b e c a u s e I m e a n S A A c o u ld b e th e 1 0 t h b i g c o m p a n y th a t I h a v e w o r k e d f o r i n my w h o l e c a r e e r a n d t o my s u r p r is e w e d i d n o t h a v e t h a t k i n d o f m ic r o m a n a g e m e n t fr o m t h e B o a r d o t h e r t h a n m a y b e fr o m y o u r L in e M a n a g e r a n d i t w o u l d g iv e r is e t o v a r io u s c o m p li a n c e a n d t h i n g s o f th e f o r m b u t n o t fr o m t h e B o a r d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then if you go further down that page to t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h in t h e m i d d l e C h a ir a s I r e a d i t M s K w i n a n a is m a k i n g s o m e c o m p l a in ts a b o u t t h e C F O a n d th e C E O a n d t h e n s h e i s a ls o r e f e r e n c i n g s o m e o f t h e p r o v is i o n s o f th e D i s c i p l i n a r y C o d e o f C o n d u c t b u t th e n i n th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h s h e g o e s b a c k to D r D a h w a . She says: “ Fr o m t h e fo r e g o i n g i t i s c l e a r th a t t h e r e i s n o c o m m i t m e n t o n t h e p a r t o f D r D a h w a t o t h e r e s o lu t io n s o f t h e D u r b a n R o a d S h o w. N o p o s i t iv e o u tc o m e h a s e v e n tu a t e d s i n c e w e w e n t o n t h e r o a d s h o w j u d g in g b y n u m e r o u s i n q u i r ie s fr o m w o u l d b e 20 s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s th a t h a v e g o n e u n a n s w e r e d . T h e s i t u a ti o n a s it p r e s e n ts i t s e l f a m p ly d e m o n s tr a t e s t h a t D r D a h w a is h e l l b e n t o n s a b o ta g i n g a n d d e r a il in g t h e tr a n s f o r m a ti o n a g e n d a o f t h e p r e s e n t G o v e r n m e n t i n g e n e r a l a n d th a t o f S A A i n p a r t ic u l a r. W h il e t h e S A A B o a r d is d o i n g a l l i n i ts p o w e r t o tr a n s l a te t h e G o v e r n m e n t ’s i n te n t o f e c o n o m i c e m p o w e r m e n t Page 206 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 in t o c o n c r e te r e a li ty t o e x t r ic a t e th e A f r ic a n m a j o r i ty fr o m t h e q u a g m ir e o f p o v e r t y D r D a h w a i s e q u a ll y d o i n g h is b e s t t o k e e p t h e s a m e p e o p l e i n e c o n o m ic b o n d a g e . He is part of a s in is t e r, r e tr o g r e s s i v e a g e n d a w h i c h i s a i m e d a t tr a v e r s i n g th e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n agenda of th e present Government. His b e h a v io u r s m a c k s o f i n s u b o r d i n a ti o n a n d c o n s p ir a c y a g a i n s t the SAA Board. T h is p u r u l e n t a t t i tu d e m a y b e lo c a t e d in t h e f a c t t h a t h e d o e s n o t s h a r e th e a g o n y o f t h e p e o p l e o f S o u t h A fr ic a 10 who have emerged fr o m centuries of e c o n o m ic d e p r iv a ti o n a n d w h o s e fr e e d o m w a s b o r n o f s tr u g g le . It is a c t u a ll y ir o n ic t h a t h e is s a b o t a g i n g S A A t h a t a p p o i n te d h i m t o s u c h a s e n i o r p o s i ti o n e s s e n t i a ll y b i ti n g t h e h a n d t h a t f e e d s h i m . T h is le a v e s m e w i t h n o o th e r o p ti o n e x c e p t t o r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e s tr o n g e s t p o s s i b l e a c ti o n b e t a k e n a g a in s t h i m . Th a n k you.” A n d t h e n i t i s s i g n e d J a k e K w i n a n a . D o c t o r D a h w a , w h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h o s e c r it ic is m s o f y o u r s e l f ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C h a ir, t o b e h o n e s t I d id n o t fi n d t h e s e c r i tic is m s a s w a r r a n t e d . I’ m o f – I s h a r e th e s a m e b a c k g r o u n d 20 w i t h t h e b la c k S o u th A f r i c a n s f o r i n s t a n c e . I a m a l s o a p r o d u c t o f a s tr u g g l e . Z i m b a b w e h a s n o t b e e n s p a r e d in t e r m s o f th is a n d b e s i d e s m y c o m in g h e r e a n d b e in g a p e r m a n e n t r e s id e n t o f S o u th A fr ic a , C h a ir, it is a h u g e r e s p o n s i b i li t y, I m e a n t h a t h a s b e e n t r u s t e d u p o n m e b y t h e g o v e r n m e n t o f R e p u b lic o f S o u th A f r ic a a n d I p e r s o n a ll y d o n o t t a k e i t li g h t ly. I n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e p e o p le o f S o u t h A fr ic a a n d in t h e b e s t Page 207 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 in t e r e s t o f th e d e v e l o p m e n t o f S o u th A f r ic a I d i d n ’ t th i n k t h is w a s w a r r a n t e d b e c a u s e i f I w a s a n t i- tr a n s fo r m a ti o n I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e d o n e th e m a n y t h in g s t h a t I d i d . Th e w h a t , C h a ir, w e d i d n ’ t d is p u te . T h e w h a t w a s tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a n d b e s i d e s in t h e LT D S d o c u m e n t C h a i r th is is t h e ir ; is p a r t o f t h e k e y th in g s t h a t I n e e d e d t o d o ; is th e h o w w e r e w e d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e w e r i s k e d b r e a k in g t h e la w s . W e r i s k e d b r i n g i n g t h e n a m e o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A i r w a y s , t h e n a m e o f S o u t h A f r ic a n g o v e r n m e n t in t o d is r e p u te . S o I d o a p p r e c i a t e b u t t o m e t h i s w a s m o r e li k e a h a t e m e s s a g e t h a t w a s j u s t c r a f t e d o u t o f b i t te r n e s s to s a y I h a v e n o t d o n e 10 w h a t t h e y h a d r e q u ir e d m e t o d o . B u t w h y I h a d n o t d o n e t h e m C h a ir lik e I in d ic a t e d e a r l ie r o n . I c o u l d h a v e d o n e t h e m i f th e y w e r e le g a l . Ye s , e v e n i f i t’s m e a n t s p e n d i n g t h e w h o l e n i g h t c h a ir a t w o r k I c o u l d h a v e d o n e i t . S o t o m e I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h i s w a s b e in g d ir e c t e d a t m e b e c a u s e I a ls o s e e s h e d o e s n ’ t s a y t h i s t o m y b o s s e s b u t th e r e m y b o s s e s n e v e r a t te n d e d a n y o f o u r r o a d s h o w s c h a ir I a t t e n d e d e v e r y s in g le o n e o f t h e m . I d i d e v e r y th in g . I m a d e i t lo o k p r o f e s s i o n a l. I m a d e it b e c a u s e t o m y b e s t o f i n te r e s t C h a i r I w a n t e d t h e b la c k p e o p le o f S o u th A fr ic a to u n d e r s t a n d f ir s t a n d f o r e m o s t ; t o g e t t h e in f o r m a t io n o f h o w S A A o p e r a t e d in t e r m s o f i ts p r o c u r e m e n ts w h ic h w a s s o m e th i n g I 20 d i d o u t o f m y w h o l e h e a r t i n t o t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f th e c o u n t r y t o m o v e f o r w a r d . B u t to m e a g a i n I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t a b o a r d m e m b e r w o u ld d i r e c t t h i s t o m e a n d a b o u t m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a y o u , a p o l o g i e s c h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n y th in g i n t h i s l e tt e r fr o m Ms K w in a n a to th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t s a y s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e a s k e d t o d o w a s n o t u n l a w fu l? Page 208 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 Is t h e r e a n y th i n g th a t a d d r e s s e s y o u r c o n c e r n t o s a y, if I d o w h a t y o u a s k m e t o d o I w il l b e b r e a k in g t h e la w ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k t h e i n d i c a t io n C h a ir w o u ld b e m a y b e c o v e r e d u n d e r w h e r e I s a i d i t i s a g a in s t m y c o n s c ie n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k t h a t is t h e o n ly a s p e c t I c a n t h i n k o f a t t h is j u n c tu r e a n d w h y I s a i d t h a t . Ye s , I d i d s a y th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 B u t m y c o n s c i e n c e C h a ir is I k n o w r ig h t fr o m w r o n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d I ’ m s a y i n g I c a n ’ t y o u k n o w o n m y own accord choose. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ’ t b r e a k th e l a w. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To b r e a k t h e la w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S i m p ly b e c a u s e I d e li b e r a t e ly d o n ’ t w a n t t o f o ll o w t h e l a w. S o t h a t w a s a s e r io u s i s s u e to m e a n d i t w a s a g a in s t m y c o n s c ie n c e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u d i d r e s p o n d to t h i s l e t t e r. D id y o u n o t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r I d i d r e s p o n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d w e f in d t h a t u n d e r t a b 11 at page 245. Page 209 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d C h a ir g iv e n t h e e x p la n a t i o n th a t D o c t o r D a h w a h a s g iv e n n o w o f h is r e s p o n s e i t ’s a c t u a l ly n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o t h r o u g h th e t e x t b u t w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d n o w i n e s s e n c e D o c t o r D a h w a a s I r e a d t h i s r e s p o n s e fr o m y o u is c o n s i s t e n t w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t t e s ti fi e d a b o u t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g i n t h is r e s p o n s e o f y o u r s t h a t y o u w o u l d l ik e t o h i g h li g h t t h a t y o u h a v e n ’ t c o v e r e d a l r e a d y ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th in k a ll h a s b e e n c o v e r e d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . I t h e n li k e u s t o g o b a c k t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f w e m a y to p a g e 1 3 . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e x te n t t h a t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o n fi r m t h a t a n y e m a i ls t h a t o n e m a y fi n d i n t h i s b u n d l e p u r p o r t in g t o c o m e fr o m y o u a n d a d d r e s s e d to w h o e v e r c o r r e c tl y w e r e fr o m y o u a n d c o r r e c t ly r e f le c t w h a t y o u s a i d i n t h e e m a ils o r le t t e r s ? S o w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o r e a d th is w h o l e l e t t e r, is n ’t i t? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a , y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a . CHAIRPERSON: But you have looked accordance with what you wanted to convey? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e C h a ir. Page 210 of 279 at it ? Everything is in 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e g o t o p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k i t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y to j u s t c o v e r t h a t f o r t h o s e w h ic h w e d o n ’ t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o n ’ t g o t h r o u g h ? CHAIRPERSON: Go through, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A b s o l u t e ly C h a ir. W e w i ll m a k e a n o t e . CHAIRPERSON: So that they are covered as under evidence. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o t h a t t h e r e is ; s o w e h a v e i n r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja, ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a t D o c t o r D a h w a c o n fi r ms t h a t th is is a n a c c u r a te r e f le c t i o n o f th e e m a i l y o u s e n t o n th e 1 6 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t D o c to r D a h w a ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d th e n t h a t t h e r e is n o t h i n g in a d d i ti o n o f it s c o n t e n t t h a t h e w i s h e s t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : R a is e . T h a n k y o u . W e w il l d o th a t i n fu t u r e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h e n i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o c to r D a h w a , y o u d e a l h e r e w i th a m e e t in g t h a t t o o k p l a c e o n th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , w h ic h is tw o m o n t h s a s I h a v e i t a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u h a d o n t h e 2 n d o f Page 211 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 O c t o b e r w h e r e y o u w e r e k e p t l a te a n d w e r e b e in g f o r c e d t o s i g n t h e le t t e r s o f a w a r d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 2nd of Dec ember 2015? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . O n th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , I th i n k a r o u n d 8 o ’c lo c k m y PA t o l d m e t h a t t h e H e a d o f Tr a n s f o r m a t io n , M r T h a p e l o L e h a s a w a n te d t o s e e m e u r g e n tl y b e c a u s e h e h a d a m e e t in g s e t u p b e t w e e n m e , h i m a n d o n e o f 10 m y c o m m o d it y m a n a g e r s , M r T h a m i S o g w a z i l e w i th c e r t a i n g e n t le m a n b y th e n a m e M r D e s Va n R o o y e n w h o m t h e y ; I w a s m a d e to u n d e r s t a n d w a s th e d i r e c to r g e n e r a l fo r M K VA . T h a t is t h e M il i ta r y Ve t e r a n s A s s o c ia t io n s a n d I d i d n ’ t b e c a u s e I h a d n o t e x p e c t e d t h a t m e e t in g , C h a ir a n d I a s k e d a c o u p le o f q u e s t i o n s a s to w h a t i t w a s a b o u t a n d w h a t w a s g o in g t o b e d e a lt w i th in t h a t p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g . B u t Mr L e h a s a t h e n s a i d I k n e w b e c a u s e t h e r e h a d b e e n s o m e e m a i ls s e n t t o m e a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g p r i o r. S o fi n a ll y C h a ir, I w a s t o l d t h e v e n u e o f t h e m e e t i n g w a s o n e o f th e f l o o r s . I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r w h i c h fl o o r e x a c t ly. So I had to go there and when I entered into the room I saw Mr Lehasa 20 w a s th e r e , Mr T h a m i S o g w a z il e w a s th e r e , m y c o m m o d it y m a n a g e r a n d t h e r e ’s t h e g e n t le m a n w h o i n tr o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s M r D e s Va n R o o y e n ; h e w a s t h e r e a s w e l l a n d a n o t h e r g e n t le m a n w h o h a d a c a p . H e w a s t a ll - is h b u t h e g a v e m e h is c a r d t o b e h o n e s t b u t f o r s o m e r e a s o n s I m is p l a c e d a ll t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n . A n d t h e n M r D e s Va n R o o y e n s t a r t e d t a lk in g th a t h e w a s n o t h a p p y w it h m e b e c a u s e h e h a d s e n t m e e m a i ls Page 212 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n d I h a d n o t b o th e r e d r e s p o n d i n g . S o I w a s n ’ t s o s u r e w h a t e m a i ls h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o a n d I ju s t k e p t s a y in g b u t S ir, I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r g e t t in g a n y s u c h e m a il s fr o m y o u b u t t h e n h e w e n t o n a n d th e n h e s a i d , a n y w a y t h e r e a s o n w h y I ’ m h e r e is b e c a u s e I w a n t t o t a lk t o y o u a b o u t M K VA b u s i n e s s w i t h S A A . T h e n I s a i d o k a y. S o h e s a id t h e r e w e r e t w o c o n tr a c ts , t o p a r t ic u l a r c o n tr a c t s h e w a s i n te r e s t e d i n . O n e w a s to d o w i t h s e c u r i ty and the other one was to do with the Amadeus p r o c u r e m e n t o r t h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t e x t e n s i o n w h e r e th e y n e e d e d a B E E p a r t n e r. Th e n I s a i d o k a y. S o I s a i d t o h i m , b u t i n a s f a r a s I c a n 10 r e m e m b e r s i t ti n g h e r e I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r u s h a v in g a te n d e r, a r u n n i n g t e n d e r f o r s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s a n d h o w e v e r, t h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t e x t e n s i o n w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s s t il l w o r k i n p r o g r e s s a n d w e h a d n o t e v e n g o t t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e w e a r e s a y in g w e a r e g o i n g o u t t o t e n d e r to fi n d i t th e B E E p a r t n e r fo r A m a d e u s . T h e n h e to l d m e t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t I w a s te ll i n g h i m h e w a s n ’t in t e r e s t e d in . H e ju s t w a n t e d m e t o g iv e th o s e te n d e r s t o th o s e p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n i e s . T h e n I m a d e a r e c o l l e c ti o n t h a t w e h a d a s e c u r it y t e n d e r w h ic h h a d ju s t b e e n a w a r d e d t o a c o m p a n y c a ll e d R e s h e b i le a n d a t o n e p o i n t i t i s to ld , t h e a w a r d i s t o l d a s w e l l b e c a u s e t h e b o a r d f e l t it n e e d e d t o b e r e - te n d e r e d . T h e n I 20 g a v e th e m a d v ic e i n w r it i n g a s w e ll to s a y t h e o n ly g r o u n d s fo r c a n c e l la t io n o f a te n d e r a s s t ip u la t e d i n t h e tr i p l e P FA w a s w h e n t h e scope of business would have at changed or the business had run out o f f u n d s ; s a y th a t y o u c a n ’t a ff o r d t h a t k i n d o f c o n t r a c t a n d s o m e k i n d o f t h i n g s . S o a s I w a s r e c o l le c ti n g t h is t h e n c a m e b a c k to s a y, s o is i t w h y w e a t o n e p o i n t w a n te d t o c a n c e l b e c a u s e fi n a ll y th e b o a r d t o o k m y Page 213 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a d v ic e a n d w e a w a r d e d . S o th e r e w a s n o t e n d e r fo r m e to a w a r d t o th e t w o c o m p a n i e s . O n e o f t h e m w a s M a f o k o S e c u r i ty a n d th e o th e r o n e I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r t h e n a m e o f t h e o th e r o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I s , I’ ll g iv e i t t o y o u . W e ’ ll p ic k i t u p o n p a g e 1 4 b u t j u s t b e f o r e w e g o th e r e , i f w e c a n j u s t u n p a c k i t e v e r s o s l i g h t ly D o c to r D a h w a . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o I h a v e y o u r t e s ti m o n y t o b e t h a t M r Va n R o o y e n s a y s t o y o u t h a t t h e t w o c o n tr a c t s t h a t h e w a n ts a w a r d e d to , to 10 w h o m , w e r e t h e y c o m p a n i e s t h a t h e w a s a s s o c i a t e d w it h ? W h a t d id h e e x p l a i n to y o u ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e w a y C h a ir I g o t it , i t w a s c o m p a n i e s r e l a t e d t o M K VA . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : R i g h t . A n d h e w a s in tr o d u c e d a s a d ir e c t o r g e n e r a l o f M K VA t o y o u ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A t t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e m e e t in g . Is th a t correct? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s b y Mr T h a p e lo L e h a s a , y e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : C o u ld i t b e t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d th a t h e w a s t r e a s u r e r g e n e r a l r a th e r t h a n d ir e c t o r g e n e r a l ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Fr o m w h a t I r e m e m b e r C h a ir, n o w i t ’s a l m o s t 4 y e a r s c lo s e b u t e v e n in m y e a r li e r w r i ti n g s I r e m e m b e r. I d o n ’ t t h i n k I w o u l d h a v e h a d fo r g o t te n th a t b u t fr o m w h a t I r e c o ll e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w r o t e d ir e c to r g e n e r a l w h e n w r i ti n g to h i m ? Page 214 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , n o n o t t o h i m b u t w h e n I w a s w o r k i n g o n t h is c a s e b e c a u s e a f t e r t h e n I d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y t h in g m u c h t o do with him. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e n I g e t p l a c e d o n s p e c i a lly th e f o ll o w i n g d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir, I w a s in t e r e s te d i n y o u r q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e i t ’s o n e c e r ta i n ly t h a t w e ’v e tr a v e r s e d w it h D o c t o r D a h w a 10 p r e v i o u s ly b e c a u s e th e c a r d , t h e b u s in e s s c a r d o f M r Va n R o o y e n t h a t w a s h a n d e d o v e r i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m e e t in g is a t p a g e 2 6 4 o f t h e p a p e r s . A n d y o u w il l s e e t h e r e t h a t h e ’s q u i te c l e a r l y i n d ic a t e d a s t h e tr e a s u r e r g e n e r a l o f … ( i n d is ti n c t) . CHAIRPERSON: I do not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A p p e a r e d n o t s e e n t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k I ’v e r e a d s o m e w h e r e th a t a t s o m e s t a g e h e w a s . I d o n ’ t k n o w i f h e s t il l is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr e a s u r e r g e n e r a l o f t h a t a s s o c ia t io n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t ju s t th is c o n fir m a t i o n o f y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n t h e r e , C h a ir, it is a s i t i s i n d ic a te d o n t h e b u s i n e s s c a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t D o c t o r D a h w a , j u s t to b e c l e a r a b o u t y o u r e v i d e n c e . W h e n y o u e n t e r t h a t r o o m , w h a t d o y o u r e c a l l b e i n g to ld a b o u t M r Va n R o o y e n ’s p o s it i o n ? Page 215 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : I t h i n k w h a t I s t a te d i n m y s t a te m e n t is w h a t I r e c a l l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a t h e w a s d ir e c t o r g e n e r a l ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h e n w e g e t to th e p o in t a s I u n d e r s t a n d your testimony that he w a n ts two c o n tr a c ts ; th e s e c u r i ty … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – m a y b e I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : N o , n o . CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Dahwa, you said he gave you his card? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k s o ; h i m a n d th e o t h e r g e n tl e m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i s t h e c a r d i n t h e b u n d le ; t h e c a r d th a t h e g a v e you? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t o n e I t h in k i t c a m e a s p a r t o f a n email. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : 20 Ye s , I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a f o l lo w - u p w i t h a n email. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B e c a u s e , l e t u s j u s t s e e h e r e . Ye s , th e b u s i n e s s c a r d i s a t ta c h e d to t h e e m a il . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A c t u a ll y. Page 216 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I t h in k D o c to r D a h w a ’s t e s t i m o n y e a r l i e r w a s t h a t h e w a s g iv e n i t b u t h e d i d n ’ t k e e p i t a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t i t w a s a t ta c h e d to a n e m a il th a t w e h a v e a t p a g e 2 6 2 a n d th e n th e a t t a c h e d c a r d i s a t 2 6 4 o f th e p a p e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h e n D o c t o r D a h w a , s o h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t a s e c u r i ty c o n tr a c t . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d j u s t i f y o u c o u ld g i v e u s a g a in y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h e r e . W h a t p r e c is e ly d i d y o u s a y t o h i m a b o u t t h a t c o n tr a c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t o ld h i m t h a t i n a s fa r a s I r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s n o t a n y s e c u r it y c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s r u n n i n g . T h e o n e w e h a d had just been awarded. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To a n o t h e r c o m p a n y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d y o u d o a c t u a ll y g iv e u s a s a n A n n e x u r e t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t le t t e r o f a w a r d w h ic h h a d g o n e t o t h e s u c c e s s f u l c o m p a n y. Yo u c a n f in d t h a t a t 2 7 2 w h ic h is u n d e r ta b 1 4 a n d y o u w il l s e e i f y o u t u r n u p th a t p a g e . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Is t h a t th e l e t t e r o f a w a r d t h a t y o u w e r e Page 217 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e fe r r i n g t o ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u w i ll s e e a t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e i t is d a t e d 1 4 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d i t ’s a d d r e s s e d t o R e s h e b i le Av i a t i o n a n d P r o t e c ti o n S e r v ic e s c o n g r a t u l a ti n g and R e s h e b il e as I read Av i a ti o n the f ir s t P r o t e c ti o n paragraph Services on it is being a w a r d e d t h e a b o v e s e r v ic e f o r a p e r io d o f o n e y e a r a n d s ix m o n th s s t a r ti n g f r o m 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 t o 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g to w h e n y o u s a i d t o M r Va n R o o y e n i t ’s a lr e a d y b e e n a w a r d e d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir b e c a u s e in a s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r t h a t w a s t h e o n l y s e c u r i ty t e n d e r w e h a d r u n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e w h e n y o u s a id that? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H e t h e n m o v e d o n to t a lk i n g a b o u t th e o n e fo r A m a d e u s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: 20 J u s t t o fo r t h e s a k e o f c o m p le t e n e s s . Th is le t t e r a t 2 7 2 a w a r d i n g th a t s e c u r i ty t e n d e r w a s w r i t t e n b y y o u . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir w e l l i n d ir e c t ly b y m y category managers. CHAIRPERSON: Oh you signed it? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d i d n ’ t s ig n . I d o n ’ t t h i n k I w a s th e r e e v e n w h e n i t w a s is s u e d . I t w a s P P e d o n m y b e h a l f . Page 218 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it was PPed yes. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B e c a u s e I w a s a w a r e I th i n k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b u t i t w a s y o u r d e c is io n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n l e t’s m o v e t o A m a d e u s a n d b e f o r e w e g e t in t o p r e c is e ly w h a t M r Va n R o o y e n s a i d o n th e d a y, I’ d lik e t o a s k y o u t o p r o v i d e u s w i t h a l it t le b it o f b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t A m a d e u s . W h a t i s i t ? W h a t s e r v ic e s d o e s i t r e l a te t o ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t p e r ta in e d t o p r o v is i o n o f t h e o n l in e b o o k i n g s y s t e m w h ic h is u s e d b y a ir li n e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e s ta t u s o f t h a t c o n tr a c t a t t h e ti m e t h a t M r Va n R o o y e n m e t w i t h y o u o n 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M a y b e I n e e d t o g iv e a b i t o f background. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n e k e y a s p e c t , C h a ir, o f t h e l o n g - t e r m tu r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y w a s t o l o o k a t v a r i o u s c o n tr a c t s t h a t e x is te d , 20 tr y a n d i n t e r r o g a t e th e m to s e e i f t h e r e w a s s c o p e fo r t a k i n g o u t c o s ts w h ic h w e r e ir r e l e v a n t to t h e o p e r a ti o n o f th e b u s i n e s s b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r S A A’s m a j o r c h a ll e n g e w a s c o s ts . I t w a s j u s t a h i g h o p e r a ti n g b u s i n e s s c o s t m o d e l . S o w h a t I t h e n d i d in m y f ir s t t h r e e m o n th s a s p a r t o f m y j o b b r i e f w a s to p ic k u p th e t o p 2 0 c o n tr a c ts w i th a n S A A f o r r e n e g o t ia t io n . S o w h a t th a t m e a n t w a s I n e e d e d t o Page 219 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 in t e r r o g a t e e a c h a n d e v e r y c o n tr a c t p a r tic u l a r ly t h e b ig o n e s b e c a u s e I u s e th e 8 0 / 2 0 p r i n c i p le r u le t o s a y m a y b e 2 0 % o f o u r to t a l c o s t is c o m i n g fr o m ; I m e a n 8 0 % o f o u r to t a l c o s t is c o m i n g fr o m 2 0 % o f o u r c o n tr a c ts . S o A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t h a p p e n e d t o f a l l w i t h i n t h a t 2 0 % a n d a s p a r t o f t h e m a n y o t h e r c o n t r a c t s th a t w e r e n e g o t ia t e d o r t h a t w e in t e r r o g a t e d to see if there was scope to say maybe time of p r o c u r e m e n t w e b o u g h t a c a r w i t h a s u n r o o f , w i t h t h is a n d th a t w h ic h w e a r e a ll p a y in g f o r. I th e n u s e d m y p r o c u r e m e n t s k il ls t o th e n s a y, h o w d o w e w o r k t o g e t h e r w i th t h e b id d e r s o r w i t h r a th e r w it h o u r 10 current s u p p li e r s to e l i m in a te or to remove th e unnecessary c o m p o n e n ts i n o u r c o n tr a c ts . A n d o b v i o u s ly, it m e a n s a ti m e o f p r o c u r i n g w i t h th e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t i n p a r ti c u la r. W e h a d b o u g h t t h is b i g b u t t h e n l a t e r o n w e a r e o n u ti liz i n g a s m a ll c o m p o n e n t o f w h a t w e had procured. So Amadeus k in d ly c o o p e r a te d and we s t a r te d in t e r r o g a ti n g w i th a n i n t e n ti o n t o m a k e s a v in g s f o r S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s a n d u n fo r t u n a t e ly t h e A m a d e u s ; w e h a v e g o t s o m e th a t w e n t t h r o u g h b e f o r e t h is w h o le 3 0 % i s s u e b e c a m e a b i g c h a l le n g e b u t t h e n t h e A m a d e u s f e l l y o u k n o w s q u a r e ly w h e n t h i n g s h a v e c h a n g e d a n d t h e 3 0 % i s s u e h a d ju s t b e c o m e i n tr o d u c e d . I f y o u r e c a l l, C h a ir, i n m y 20 s t a te m e n t I d id s a y t h a t I m a d e s a v i n g s o f 2 11 m i l li o n w i th i n r e c o r d s ix m o n th s ’ ti m e . I t w a s p u r e l y b e c a u s e o f t h e r e n e g o ti a ti o n o f e x is ti n g c o n tr a c ts a n d t h a t e x e r c i s e a ls o h e lp e d m e to s e e q u i t e m a n y c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e r e n o t fi n a l iz e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u f o c u s i n g o n th e s a v i n g t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e t o a g r e e w i th A m a d e u s . W h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t o f t h a t Page 220 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s a v in g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s a r o u n d 1 9 m il li o n , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s a v in g ? To w h o s e b e n e fi t w o u l d t h a t s a v in g li e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s , C h a ir. L ik e I s a id i t w a s a r e s p o n s e t o t h e l o n g - te r m t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w h e r e t h e a ir li n e w a s b l e e d in g b e c a u s e o f e x c e s s iv e c o s ts a n d i t w a s m y d u ty t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I w e e d e d o u t a ll u n n e c e s s a r y c o s t s w it h in e x is ti n g c o n tr a c ts , C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir, I ’ m g o i n g t o a s k t h a t w e g o s li g h tly b a c k i n ti m e ju s t s o t h a t w e c a n fo ll o w t h e b a c k g r o u n d u p ti ll th e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e D o c t o r D a h w a i s a s s is ti n g u s w it h u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t A m a d e u s w a s c o n tr a c te d f o r ; u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h e n t o h a v e c o v e r e d t h e e ff o r ts you made to fi n d s a v in g s w it h i t a n d the id e n t i fic a t io n o f a R 1 9 m il li o n s a v i n g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h e n I’ d li k e t o t a k e y o u to a b o a r d d e c is i o n t h a t to o k p la c e o n t h e 2 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 . Yo u ’l l f i n d it u n d e r t a b 1 7 a t page 281. 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c to r D a h w a , c a n y o u i n d ic a t e to u s w h a t t h is r e c o r d o f d e c i s i o n o f th e b o a r d r e l a te s to ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. Th is r e l a te d t o t h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t e x te n s i o n . T h a t’s p r o v is i o n o f p a s s e n g e r b o o k i n g s s e r v ic e s . Page 221 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . A n d c o u l d y o u r e a d f o r u s w h a t th e b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s r e s o lv e d ? Yo u ’ ll fi n d i t i n t h e f o u r t h b l o c k o n th a t page. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t r e a d s , T h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s r e s o lv e d t o a p p r o v e t h a t S A A e x te n d t h e e x is ti n g A m a d e u s ( I c a n ’ t r e a d th e o t h e r p a r t ) a g r e e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t l o o k s lik e C I T P. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H m . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C I T P. T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. 10 A g r e e m e n t f o r t h e p r o v i s i o n o f P B S e r v ic e s a s w e l l a s associated supplements and related agreements with Amadeus Global Tr a v e l D is tr i b u ti o n S o u th A f r ic a f o r a n a d d i ti o n a l p e r io d o f t h r e e y e a r s a t a n e s ti m a t e d to t a l s a v in g s o f R 1 9 ,0 7 3 ,0 0 0 ( t h e o t h e r p a r t I c a n ’ t s e e w h e t h e r i t is a s ix o r e i g h t) 6 9 8 m a y b e p e r y e a r c a lc u l a te d a t 8 . 5 m il li o n P B s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d th e n w h a t d e c is io n w a s ta k e n i n t h e b l o c k s th a t a p p e a r th e r e e i t h e r a p p r o v e d , r e fe r r e d b a c k f o r r e w o r k o r d e c l in e d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w a s a p p r o v e d , C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : And what is the second part of that block d e t a i li n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t r e a d s p o i n t 1 , A m a d e u s s h o u ld s e t a s i d e 3 0 % o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r p a r t n e r i n g w i t h a lo c a l B E E S M M E i n t h e I T s p a c e . A n d a n o th e r c o n d i ti o n , Page 222 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 T h e s a v in g s th a t A m a d e u s is w il li n g t o c o n c e d e s h o u l d b e u til iz e d f o r e n t e r p r i s e d e v e lo p m e n t a n d o r a n y o t h e r e q u i ty c o n tr ib u t io n w h ic h m a y b e r e q u ir e d f r o m t h e s u c c e s s f u l B E E c o m p a n y. P o in t 3 , Should Amadeus reject to the above proposal, SAA should so, s h o u l d g o o u t o n t e n d e r w i th i m m e d ia t e e ff e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Th a n k y o u . C a n w e l o o k a t t h a t s e c o n d c o n d i ti o n ? I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u w h a t t h a t s e c o n d c o n d i t io n m e a n s a s f a r a s y o u u n d e r s to o d i t a t t h e t i m e . W h a t is i t s a y in g th e r e ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th in k m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , C h a ir, is t h e s a v in g s th a t h a d b e e n s e c u r e d f o r S o u t h A fr ic a n A i r w a y s u n d e r t h e LT T S i m p le m e n t a ti o n p l a n w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e u til iz e d f o r e n t e r p r is e d e v e l o p m e n t . A n d S ir, C h a ir, le t m e m a k e a s u b m is s i o n a t th is p o in t . T h a t S A A d id n o t e v e n h a v e a tr a n s fo r m a t io n p o li c y in p la c e a s a t t h a t ti m e . S o e v e n t o s a y w e n e e d e d t o u s e th a t m o n e y f o r e n te r p r is e d e v e l o p m e n t I d i d n ’ t q u it e u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h a t w a s g o i n g t o w o r k b e c a u s e w e s til l w e r e s tr u g g li n g t o g e t t h a t p o lic y fr o m t h e H e a d o f Tr a n s f o r m a t io n f o r q u i t e s o m e t i m e . S e c o n d ly, t o s a y i t w a s g o i n g to b e u til iz e d b y a n e q u i ty c o n tr ib u ti o n w h ic h m a y b e r e q u ir e d f r o m a 20 s u c c e s s fu l B E E c o m p a n y, I a l s o d o n ’ t q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . I’ m a n o n fi n a n c e p e r s o n , C h a ir, b u t m y, w i t h m y li t tl e u n d e r s ta n d i n g , b u y i n g o f , I m e a n – I m e a n w h e n y o u t a lk o f e q u i ty t o m e i t s o u n d s l ik e b u y in g s h a r e s i n s o m e c o m p a n y a n d o b v i o u s ly fr o m w h e r e I a m s i t ti n g , C h a ir, I d i d n ’ t q u i te u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h a t e q u i ty w o u ld b e s e c u r e d i n a t h ir d p a r t y c o m p a n y u ti liz i n g t h e s a v in g s t h a t w e h a d g o t . B e c a u s e a ls o o n Page 223 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 o n e h a n d s a v i n g s c o m e i n t w o fo r m . T h e r e m a y b e a c h e q u e w r it t e n b a c k t o y o u to s a y h e r e a r e y o u r s a v i n g s o r i t ’s a p a p e r s a y i n g w h e r e y o u ju s t s a y, o k a y g o i n g fo r w a r d w e a r e n o t g o i n g to b e c h a r g in g y o u X amount but we are going to charge you a reduced amount. So since we a r e s t il l in t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s o f f i n a li z i n g t h is w h o le th in g , t h is s e c o n d c o n d i ti o n i t d o e s n ’ t q u i t e m a k e c le a r s e n s e t o m e a s t o h o w t h a t c o n d i ti o n c o u ld b e a p p li e d . T h a t ’s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t , y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t a m o n g s t t h e t h i n g s t h a t w o r r i e d y o u a b o u t 10 t h a t c o n d i ti o n w a s th a t it w a s g o i n g to b e r e d ir e c ti n g a s a v in g t o S A A t o a t h ir d p a r t y t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e b r o u g h t i n to th e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t. Is t h a t a f a i r r e a d i n g o f y o u r a ff id a v i t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h e n i f w e r e tu r n to th e m e e ti n g w i t h M r Va n R o o y e n b e c a u s e y o u m e e t w i t h h i m o n t h e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r a s I have your evidence. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H e fir s t r a is e s th e s e c u r i ty c o n tr a c t . Yo u in d i c a t e t o h i m t h a t ’s a lr e a d y b e e n a w a r d e d a n d t h e n h e m o v e s t o th e 20 A m a d e u s c o n t r a c t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Please tell us what he said about the Amadeus contract? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H e t h e n s a i d , t h e r e is t h i s i s s u e a b o u t t h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i t h a s b e e n r e n e g o t i a t e d a n d Page 224 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e r e a r e s a v in g s o f a b o u t 1 9 m i ll i o n t h a t a r e th e r e . T h e n h e s a i d , in s e a r c h f o r th e B E E c o m p a n y I w o u l d w a n t y o u to u s e t h e o t h e r c o m p a n y that I said I needed to get the name a g a in . T h e r e ’s t h e ir … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s , l e t m e g iv e it t o y o u . I f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 4 , a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e p a r a g r a p h 4 4 . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u ’ ll s e e y o u r e c o r d t h e r e t h a t Mr Va n R o o y e n th e n s t a t e d th a t h e s h o u l d b e a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r f o r A m a d e u s 10 t o a c o m p a n y C h r is S t a tu s I n v e s t m e n ts a n d In f o r m a ti o n Te c h n o l o g y S o lu t io n a s th e B E E p a r t n e r to A m a d e u s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o e s th a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n o f th e c o m p a n y h e r e fe r e n c e d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir. T h e n w h e n h e m e n t io n e d t h a t I w a s s u r p r is e d , C h a ir, t h a t M r Va n R o o y e n k n e w a b o u t t h e n e g o ti a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e h a v in g w i th A m a d e u s a n d w h a t I d i d n ’ t q u i te g e t i s b e c a u s e i n o n e m e e ti n g w i t h A m a d e u s w h e n w e w e r e s t il l d o i n g t h a t to a n d fr o g o in g t o t h e b o a r d b a c k t o th e m . T h e b o a r d w a n ts 3 0 % 20 a n d a ll t h o s e k i n d o f t h in g s , t h e y d id m e n t io n t o m e a n d t o t h e c h i e f o f in f o r m a ti o n Mr P h in t a N k a l a t h a t s o m e o n e h a d c o m e t o th e m a n d t o l d t h e m t h a t th e y w e r e g o i n g to b e p a r t n e r s f o r t h e B E E c o m p o n e n t . W e tr i e d to s e e i f th e y c o u l d d is c l o s e w h o t h a t s o m e o n e w a s b u t th e y r e fu s e d . S o n o w t h e e v e n t o f th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r m a d e m e r e m e m b e r n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n w h i c h h a d b e e n s a i d s o m e w h e r e Page 225 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 b y a n o ffi c i a l fr o m A m a d e u s a n d a ls o li k e I s a i d I w a s s u r p r is e d to s a y M r Va n R o o y e n k n e w a b o u t t h e s a v i n g s b e c a u s e e v e n a t t h a t s t a g e , C h a ir, w e h a d n o t e v e n m a d e a p o s i ti o n . W e w e r e s ti ll m o v in g b e t w e e n b o a r d , A m a d e u s , I T, p r o c u r e m e n t ; w e w e r e s ti ll tr y i n g t o f i n d o u r f e e t in t e r m s o f c o n c l u d i n g t h a t w h o le t h in g b u t t h a t r e a lly s u r p r i s e d m e . T h e n in my r e s p o n s e t o h i m r e g a r d i n g t h a t is s u e I t o l d h i m t h a t u n f o r t u n a t e ly S ir, I ’ m a p r o c u r e m e n t p e r s o n . I w o u l d n ’t k n o w h o w th is 1 9 m i ll io n w o u ld b e a p p o r t io n e d o r w o u ld b e r e d i r e c t e d o r tr a n s fe r r e d o r w h a t e v e r it is t o a t h ir d - p a r ty c o m p a n y a n d I , a b o u t t h e n e g o t ia t io n t h a t w e w e r e 10 h a v i n g w it h A m a d e u s . A n d w h a t I d i d n ’ t q u i te g e t is b e c a u s e i n o n e m e e ti n g w i t h A m a d e u s w h e n w e w e r e s ti ll d o i n g th e t o a n d fr o g o i n g to t h e b o a r d , b a c k t o t h e m , th e b o a r d w a n t s 3 0 % a n d a ll t h e s e k i n d o f t h i n g s . T h e y d i d m e n t io n t o m e a n d to t h e C h ie f o f I n fo r m a ti o n , M r P h in t a N k a la th a t s o m e o n e h a d c o m e t o t h e m a n d t o l d t h e m t h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g to b e p a r t n e r s f o r th e B E E c o m p o n e n t . W e tr y to d o s e e if t h e y c o u l d d is c l o s e w h o t h a t s o m e o n e w a s t h a t th e y r e fu s e d . S o n o w the event of the 2nd of December made me remember now that there w a s t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n w h i c h h a d b e e n s a i d s o m e w h e r e b y a n o ffic i a l fr o m A m a d e u s . A n d a ls o l ik e I s a i d , I w a s s u r p r is e d to s a y M r Va n 20 R o o y e n k n e w a b o u t t h e s a v i n g s b e c a u s e e v e n a t t h a t s ta g e , C h a ir, w e h a d n o t e v e n m a d e a p o s i ti o n . W e w e r e s t il l m o v i n g b e t w e e n b o a r d , A m a d e u s , I T, p r o c u r e m e n t . W e w e r e s t il l tr y in g to fi n d o u r f e e t i n t e r m s o f c o n c lu d i n g t h a t w h o l e th in g b u t t h a t r e a lly s u r p r i s e d m e . T h e n i n my r e s p o n s e to h i m r e g a r d in g t h a t i s s u e I t o l d h i m t h a t , u n f o r tu n a te ly Si r I’ m a p r o c u r e m e n t p e r s o n . I w o u ld n ’t k n o w h o w t h i s 1 9 m i ll io n w o u ld b e Page 226 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a p p o r ti o n e d o r w o u l d b e r e d ir e c te d o r tr a n s f e r r e d o r w h a t e v e r it is t o a t h ir d - p a r t y c o m p a n y a n d I e v e n k i n d ly s a id to h i m , I t h i n k fi n a n c e w o u l d k n o w b e c a u s e th e y d e a l w it h th e s e is s u e s i n s i d e o u t. B u t f r o m a p r o c u r e m e n t p o in t o f v i e w I h a d n e v e r d e a lt w i t h s i t u a t io n s w h e r e I h a d t o m o v e m o n e y f ir s t a n d f o r e m o s t w h ic h h a d b e e n s e c u r e d f o r s a v i n g s b e c a u s e t h e a ir li n e is b l e e d i n g a n d t h e n w e a r e s a y i n g w e d o n ’ t w a n t i t . W e w a n t t o p a s s it o n t o t h ir d - p a r ti e s . I t d id n ’ t m a k e s e n s e to m e b u t I d i d r e f e r h i m i n th a t m e e t i n g t o s a y m a y b e fi n a n c e p e o p l e w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t b u t w e d id n ’t g o in t o t h e , h o w 10 i m p o s s i b le it w a s to a p p o in t h is p a r tic u la r c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d D o c t o r D a h w a , i f w e t h e n m o v e t o p a g e 1 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Yo u s u m m a r iz e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 7 o n t h a t p a g e . W h a t a s p e c ts o f th e m e e ti n g w e r e o f c o n c e r n t o y o u ? C a n y o u t e ll u s w h a t those concerns were? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h a t m y c o n c e r n s w e r e , C h a ir, is t h a t M r Va n R o o y e n k n e w a l l t h e d e t a il s o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r c o n tr a c t t h a t w e a r e r e n e g o ti a ti n g w it h A m a d e u s a n d h e a l s o k n e w a b o u t t h e d is c u s s io n s th a t w e r e g o in g o n th a t w o u ld e v e n t u a ll y r e q u ir e a B E E p a r t n e r t o p a r tn e r w it h A m a d e u s a n d w h i c h is w h y m o s t p r o b a b ly h e 20 t h e n c a m e f o r w a r d a n d s a y h e h a d h is c o m p a n y a s th e p a r tn e r t o g o along with Amadeus. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c to r D a h w a , w a s th e R 1 9 m il li o n s a v i n g p u b lic k n o w l e d g e a t t h a t ti m e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t a t t h e t i m e , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r Mr Va n R o o y e n m a k i n g Page 227 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s p e c i f ic r e fe r e n c e to t h a t s a v i n g in t h a t a m o u n t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W a s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o n c e r n e d y o u ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , i t d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h is m e e ti n g I d o n ’ t g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n f r o m y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t M r Va n R o o y e n w a s t a lk i n g t o y o u i n t h e w a y o f m a k i n g a r e q u e s t a n d o r m a k in g a p r o p o s a l . I s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L LI P D A H WA : C h a ir, I d o n ’t t h i n k h e w a s m a k i n g a r e q u e s t o r a p r o p o s a l . To m e i t w a s m o r e o f a n i n s tr u c ti o n g i v e n t h a t I 10 d o n ’t k n o w h i m p e r s o n a lly e v e n t h a t h e w a s tr e a s u r e r g e n e r a l , I d i d n ’ t k n o w. I w a s j u s t a m e r e c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t o ffic e r a n d n o w I a m g e tt i n g t h is i n s tr u c t io n t o s a y I w a n t y o u t o a w a r d b e c a u s e t h e tw o c o m p a n ie s w e r e p r e s e n t e d to m e ; t h e p r o f il e s o f t h o s e t w o c o m p a n i e s a n d o b v i o u s l y I d i d n ’ t k n o w w h a t h e w a n t e d m e t o d o w i th t h e m . B e c a u s e t o t h e n s a y I w a n t y o u t o a w a r d , a g a in I c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , y o u r e p e a t t h e w o r d w a n t b u t t h a t’s t h e b a s is fo r m y q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e y o u d id s a y e a r li e r o n h e s a i d s o m e t h in g li k e h e w a n t e d y o u t o g iv e th e , t o a w a r d t h e t e n d e r t o th e m o r t o w h a t e v e r th e c o m p a n y w a s a n d I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u a r e q u i t e c le a r in 20 y o u r m in d th a t th a t ’s h o w h e p u t it . H e w a n t e d y o u t o d o t h a t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e c le a r a b o u t t h a t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u m e n t io n e d a Page 228 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 m o m e n t a g o t h a t y o u w e r e t h e n p r o v i d e d w i t h t h e d e ta il s o f t h o s e t w o c o m p a n i e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir, I’ m n o t s u g g e s t in g w e g o t h e r e n o w b u t t h e e m a ils t h a t f o ll o w t h e m e e t i n g t h e n d o p r o v i d e l e t te r s fr o m e a c h o f t h o s e c o m p a n ie s t h a t w e r e r e f e r e n c e d b y Mr Va n R o o y e n in th e m e e ti n g . T h e o n e r e l a t e d t o t h e s e c u r i ty t e n d e r a n d o th e r r e la t e d t o th e I T te n d e r ; w e l l, t h e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h A m a d e u s a r o u n d t h e I T s y s t e m . D o c to r D a h w a , i f w e c o u ld t h e n m o v e t o l o w e r o n t h e p a g e 1 7 o f y o u r 10 a ffi d a v i t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Well, before we go there may be a quanta q u e s t io n . T h e C h a ir a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h e 2 n d o f O c t o b e r m e e ti n g . H o w d i d th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r m e e ti n g w i th M r Va n R o o y e n e n d ? O n w h a t t e r m s d id it e n d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l. I d i d te ll h i m t h a t I h a d n o t e n d e r f o r s e c u r i ty t o a w a r d a n d r e g a r d i n g t h e A m a d e u s c o n tr a c t h e n e e d e d t o c o n s u l t m a y b e w i t h fi n a n c e a s t h i s w a s s o m e t h i n g s tr a n g e to m e o r s o m e t h i n g th a t I c o u l d n ’ t h e l p w i t h b e c a u s e 20 it d i d n ’ t s it w it h in m y p r o c u r e m e n t r e m it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d d id y o u h a v e a n y f u r th e r in t e r a c ti o n s w it h M r Va n R o o y e n a f t e r t h a t p o in t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W e ’ l l c o m e t o w h a t h a p p e n e d s e v e n d a y s l a te r in t h e h i s to r y o f S o u th A fr ic a i n r e l a ti o n t o M r Va n R o o y e n b e c a u s e a s I Page 229 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e la t e r t h a t d i d h a v e a b e a r i n g f o r y o u o n y o u r s e n s e o f w h a t w a s g o in g o n a t t h e t i m e . B u t b e fo r e w e g e t th e r e , i f w e c o u l d j u s t tu r n t o p a g e 1 7 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r CHAIRPERSON: A n d m a y b e b e fo r e t h a t M s H o f m e y e r. T h e r e w e r e o th e r p e o p l e a t t h is m e e t in g o f t h e , is i t 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r w h e r e M r Va n R o o y e n w a s s p e a k i n g to you. 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: D id th e y p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e d i s c u s s io n s o r w a s t h e d is c u s s io n s i m p l y b e tw e e n y o u a n d M r Va n R o o y e n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e d i s c u s s i o n , C h a ir, w a s b e t w e e n m e a n d M r Va n R o o y e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d w h a t I w o u l d a ls o w a n t t o b u t b e f o r e y o u , C h a ir, is th e n a t u r e o f th e m e e ti n g w a s v e r y u n u s u a l. I m e a n , I h a d a PA a n d i f I w a s t h e o r g a n i z e r o f th a t m e e ti n g d e fi n i t e l y m y PA n e e d e d to c o m e a n d t a k e m i n u t e s o f w h a t e v e r t h e p r o c e e d i n g s 20 w e r e . H o w e v e r, I w a s n o t t h e o r g a n iz e r o f t h e m e e t i n g . M r Th a p e l o L e h a s a w a s a n d t o m y s u r p r is e o n e o f m y s u b o r d i n a t e s w a s a ls o p r e s e n t i n t h a t m e e ti n g w h i c h a l s o , i t g a v e m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t y o u r p r io r k n o w l e d g e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , e v e n t o t h is d a t e I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y h e w a s th e r e b e c a u s e th e fo ll o w i n g d a y I w a s a s k e d t o l e a v e . Page 230 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . N o w w h o w a s th e p e r s o n w h o h a d t o l d y o u a b o u t t h is m e e ti n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H e w a s t h e h e a d o f tr a n s f o r m a ti o n , M r Thapelo Lehasa C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d h e w a s a t t h e m e e t in g a s w e ll ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H e w a s h i m a n d Mr T h a m i S o g w a z il e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n e o f m y c o m m o d i ty m a n a g e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR MASIMBA P H I L L I P D A H WA : Mr Va n Rooyen and another g e n tl e m a n th a t h e b r o u g h t a lo n g w i th h i m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e n a m e o f th e g e n tl e m a n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w M r L e h a s a i n r e la ti o n t o th e h ie r a r c h y i n t h e c o m p a n y, i n r e la t io n t o y o u a n d th e h ie r a r c h y o f t h e c o m p a n y, w h e r e w a s h e ? Wa s h e y o u r s e n io r i n t h e c o m p a n y o r w e r e y o u o n t h e s a m e le v e l? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , w e w e r e p e e r s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W e w e r e p e e r s . W e h a d s a m e le v e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e p e e r s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . O k a y b u t h e n e v e r s a id m u c h a t t h e m e e ti n g ? Page 231 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : o th e r e m a il s and exchanges. B u t w h a t I k i n d o f p i c k a s w e l l fr o m It appears there had been some d is c u s s io n s g o i n g o n w i t h o u t my k n o w l e d g e . S o I t h in k w h e n th a t m e e ti n g w a s c a l l e d I w a s m o r e l ik e th e o d d o n e o u t. I w a s tr y i n g t o g e t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i t w a s t h a t w a s g o in g o n b u t th e tw o g e n tl e m e n fr o m m y t e a m s e e m e d t o h a v e a n i d e a o f w h a t it i s t h a t w a s g o i n g o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 D i d y o u e v e r a s k M r L e h a s a h o w it c a m e a b o u t th a t c a l l e d y o u to a m e e t in g th a t u l ti m a t e ly a p p e a r e d t o h a v e b e e n e s s e n ti a l ly b e t w e e n y o u a n d Mr Va n R o o y e n w i th o u t y o u h a v i n g b e e n c o n s u l t e d in a d v a n c e a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g b e i n g a r r a n g e d ? D id y o u e v e r get to talk to him about that? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t o n t h e d a y, C h a ir, b u t w h a t I c o u l d g e t w a s a lo t o f e x c i t e m e n t f r o m m y d ir e c t r e p o r t , Mr T h a m i S o g w a z i le . H e l o o k e d v e r y e x c i te d a b o u t t h i n g s th a t w e r e g o i n g o n b e c a u s e y o u a ls o f i n d h e h a d d i r e c t c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h t h e C h a ir, Ms K w in a n i a n d t h e m a n d I h o p e w e w i ll c o v e r t h a t a n d s o m o s t p r o b a b l y I w a s th e o n ly o n e w h o w a s tr y i n g to g e t u p t o t e r m s . A n d i n t e r m s o f 20 a s k in g Mr L e h a s a , C h a ir, t h is h a p p e n e d o n t h e 2 n d a n d o n t h e 3 r d I w a s a s k e d t o g o o n s p e c i a l l e a v e . S o I n e v e r g o t a c h a n c e . Ev e n t h e c a r d s , m o s t p r o b a b ly I l e f t th e m o n m y t a b l e b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w h e n y o u c o m e fr o m a m e e t i n g y o u m a y l e a v e y o u r t h i n g s th e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h i n g s Page 232 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h a p p e n t h e r e a f t e r, I m a y n o t h a v e h a d a c h a n c e to p ic k u p w h a t I thought I would need. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c to r D a h w a , y o u ’v e m a d e r e fe r e n c e s o n t w o o c c a s i o n s t o y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e r e p o r t i n g l in e s o f p e r s o n s w h o w e r e b e l o w y o u i n th e h i e r a r c h y a n d w h o t h e y w e r e e n g a g in g w i t h . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h a t c o n c e r n w a s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o r r y. C h a ir, a s h e a d o f – a s h e a d o f 10 p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t o ffi c e r fo r S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s , I r e p o r t e d t o c h i e f f in a n c e o ff ic e r w h o th e n in r e t u r n r e p o r te d to t h e CEO and the CEO in return reported to the board. But what was h a p p e n in g n o w i n m y a r e a is I h a d t w o m e m b e r s o f m y s t a ff r e p o r ti n g d ir e c t t o t h e C h a ir o f t h e b o a r d , M s M u y e n i a n d th e r e is e v i d e n c e t o t h a t e ffe c t a n d e v e n th e is s u e o f m y ly i n g t h a t I li e d . I p ic k it f o r t h e fir s t t i m e fr o m M r T h a m i S o g w a z il e i n o n e e m a i l w h e r e h e s a i d w e a r e a t a C S F t e a m fo r j e t f u e l a n d w e w o u l d w a n t to l e t y o u k n o w D o c t o r D a h w a t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o r e p o r t y o u t o s e n i o r l e a d e r s h ip th a t y o u li e d . A n d t h e n I r e p o r te d t h a t c a s e to m y b o s s w h i c h w a s t h e C F O t o 20 s a y th is i s w h a t I a m to l d a n d a n o th e r i s s u e t h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e s a m e ti m e w a s , I w a s m a d e a w a r e b y M r T h a m i i n a m e e t in g in m y d e p a r t m e n ta l m e e t in g t h a t t h e C h a ir h a d i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o c a ll f o r a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n S A A p r o c u r e m e n t t e a m a n d S A AT a n d M a n g o to c o m e and d is c u s s some tr a n s f o r m a t io n a l is s u e s . Th e n I sought fo r c la r i fi c a t io n t o s a y, h o w c o u l d t h e C h a i r t a lk to m y li n e , m y d ir e c t l in e Page 233 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n d n o t e v e n t h r o u g h m y b o s s o r b o s s ’ b o s s a n d th a t s e e m e d t o h a v e b e e n b e c o m in g m o r e o f a p r o b le m . Yo u w il l a ls o f i n d t h a t t h e r e is e v i d e n c e to t h e f a c t t h a t o n e o f t h e D u r b a n r o a d s h o w s w e r e th a t is s u e o f 6 0 w h a t e v e r c o m p a n i e s , M r T h a m i S o g w a z il e a c t u a ll y to o k i t u p o n h i m s e l f t o l e a d o n t h e a r r a n g e m e n t a n d e v e r y t h in g a n d n o w I w a s lik e p l a y in g s e c o n d fi d d l e i n th e w h o le s t a t e o f a ffa ir s . CHAIRPERSON: H e r e p o r t e d t o y o u b u t n o w h e w a s l ik e t a k i n g o v e r a n d d o i n g t h i n g s w it h o u t y o u r, w i th o u t t a lk i n g to y o u , w i th o u t y o u r approval? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S u r e , C h a ir, w h ic h is w h y t h e n e v e n in m y m e e ti n g w i t h Mr D e s Va n R o o y e n h e w a s th e r e . I d o n ’ t k n o w u p t o t h is m in u t e a s to w h y h e f o u n d h i m s e l f t h e r e . I f I w a n te d m o s t p r o b a b ly it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m y s e l f i n v i t in g h i m t o t h a t m e e t in g p e n d i n g o n w h a t it w a s g o i n g t o l o o k a t a n d m a y b e i f I w a n t e d h i m t o g e t fir s t- h a n d in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t h e i m p l e m e n t e r s o f s o m e o f t h e s e is s u e s b u t t o my s u r p r is e h e k n e w. A n d t h a t ’s w h y I a m s a y i n g m o s t p r o b a b ly th e r e w e r e m a n y o th e r th in g s h a p p e n i n g b e h in d my b a c k a n d e s p e c i a l ly i f y o u lo o k a t e v e n ts t h a t h a p p e n e d fr o m t h a t m e e ti n g g o i n g forward. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c to r D a h w a , w e ’r e g o i n g t o g e t to th e n e x t d a y, t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r i n a m o m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n I u n d e r s t a n d y o u w e r e s e r v e d w it h l e t te r s o f s u s p e n s i o n ; w e ll , a l e tt e r o f suspension. But before we go there if I ma y just take you to page 17 of y o u r a ff i d a v i t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. Page 234 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B e c a u s e y o u d e a l w i t h C h r is to p i c w h ic h is t h e t e n d e r a w a r d c a n c e l la t io n fo r L S G S k y c h e f . C h a ir, t h i s is a m a t t e r t h a t M s M u s h e w i ll a ls o d e a l w i th b u t b e c a u s e w e h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f D o c t o r D a h w a ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y, I’ ll a s k h i m to tr a v e r s e h is k n o w l e d g e o f th a t is s u e a s w e l l. CHAIRPERSON: I w a s ju s t th i n k i n g b u t I r e a l iz e w e m i g h t s t il l b e w i t h i n ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s j u s t th in k i n g t h a t w e n o t a b o u t f o r a d jo u r n i n g . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But I was just thinking whether we had without n o t ic i n g p a s t t h e d e a d li n e b y w h ic h h e h a d p r o m is e d t o w r i t e th o s e le t t e r s a w a r d i n g t e n d e r s t o t h e t w o m e m b e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r o m i s e t o t h e tw o m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I th in k w e a r e s til l w i t h i n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W e ’ ll c o m e t o t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o i f w e c a n d o t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n a n d t h e n w i ll c o n c l u d e o n t h e le t t e r s o f a w a r d a n d t h e n w i ll g o t o t h e s u s p e n s io n w i t h your leave. So page 17. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r Page 235 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u d e a l t h e r e w it h a t e n d e r t h a t w a s a w a r d e d to L S G S k y c h e f . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W h e n w a s t h a t l e tt e r o f a w a r d i s s u e d to L S G Sky chef? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s o n th e 2 1 s t o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t p r o c e s s h a d p r o c e e d e d t h a t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 A f o r m a l te n d e r p r o c e s s h a d ta k e n p l a c e a n d e v a l u a t io n s d o n e a n d a n a w a r d t o L S G S k y c h e fs . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Th a n k y o u . A n d w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d a b o u t t w o w e e k s l a te r o n th e 2 n d o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I w a s i n v it e d t o j o in t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s i n c lu d i n g M s M u y e n i t o P a r l i a m e n t in C a p e To w n a n d d u r i n g t h e d i s c u s s i o n s p e r t a i n i n g to is s u e s o f S A A , t h e m a n y i s s u e s y o u k n o w a s a lw a y s o u t o f th e b lu e s th e C h a ir s ta r t e d . S h e j u s t m e n t i o n e d t h e is s u e a b o u t t h e s e e x e c u t iv e s th e y k i n d o f , s e e m l ik e th e y d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e y a r e d o i n g b e c a u s e r e c e n tly t h e r e is a te n d e r f o r c a t e r in g w h ic h w a s a w a r d e d to S k y c h e fs w h ic h is a G e r m a n c o m p a n y a s i f w e 20 a r e s a y i n g i n S o u t h A f r i c a t h e r e a r e n o w o m e n w h o c a n c o o k , y o u k n o w. S o s tr a i g h t f r o m t h e r e , a t t e n t io n w a s m o v e d to m e t o s a y o r t o e x p l a i n w h a t t h is w a s a b o u t a n d a s t h e c h i e f p r o c u r e m e n t o ff ic e r in a n u t s h e l l , I ju s t d id n ’ t w a n t t o h a v e t o o m a n y w o r d s b e c a u s e m e d i a w a s a ls o q u i te in t e r e s te d in t h e w h o l e th in g . I d i d s a y to t h e m a n d i t w a s e v e n in t h e n e w s p a p e r s o n l in e a n d e v e r y th in g th a t y o u k n o w d u e p r o c u r e m e n t Page 236 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o c e s s w a s f o l lo w e d a n d th e o u tc o m e o f t h e e v a l u a t i o n r e s u l t e d in th e t e n d e r b e in g a w a r d e d t o L S G S k y c h e f . T h e n w h e n w e h a d , t h e r e w a s a w h o le l o t o f d is c u s s i o n b e c a u s e n o w it r e a ll y b u t w h a t p r o m p t e d th e d is c u s s io n i s b e c a u s e i n m y v ie w, C h a ir, th e m a t te r w a s t a k e n o u t o f p r o p o r ti o n a n d I t h i n k w e h a d ta k e n a v e r y n a r r o w v i e w o f S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s a s a b r a n d . S o u th A f r i c a n A ir w a y s , C h a ir, a n d a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d i s n o t a n a ti o n a l a ir li n e . I t is a g l o b a l a ir l in e . I t is a b i g n a m e y o u k n o w a n d it g o e s a l l i ts d e s ti n a t io n s d e fi n e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s is . I t is n o t li k e J o ’ b u r g , C a p e To w n a n d b a c k t h a t k in d o f a 10 t h i n g . S o I f o u n d th o s e c o m m e n ts i n m y v i e w t o b e k i n d o f u n w a r r a n t e d f o r a n a t i o n a l , I m e a n f o r a g l o b a l p l a y e r fo r a n in t e r n a t i o n a l a i r l in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a te r i n g w a s to h a p p e n w h e r e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w a s to h a p p e n a t O R Ta m b o in t e r n a t io n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e n ’t t h e y m e a n in g th a t i t m i g h t b e fly in g g l o b a ll y b u t it ’s h o m e i s S o u t h A f r i c a ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 Tr u e , C h a ir, b u t I t h i n k i n t e r m s o f lo o k in g a t a g l o b a l p la y e r, C h a ir, i t w i ll b e v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o tr y a n d lo c a liz e i t i n m a n y s p h e r e s a n d e v e n to m a k e i t a n i s s u e b e c a u s e a g l o b a l c o m p a n y i n a s f a r a s I’ m c o n c e r n e d it h a s t o l iv e w i t h i n th e c o n fi n e s o f t h e i n te r n a ti o n a l s p a c e . B e c a u s e i f e v e r y o n e e l s e w i t h i n t h a t s p a c e , C h a ir, s t a r ts m a k i n g s u c h a s s e r ti o n s t h a n e v e n r u n n i n g th a t n a t u r e o f b u s i n e s s m a y b e v e r y d i ff ic u l t . Page 237 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u r fir s t a n s w e r w a s d u e . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : P r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s w e r e f o l lo w e d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h a t p a r l ia m e n t a r y s e s s i o n a n d t h e q u e s ti o n s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : So when we returned home the f o ll o w i n g d a y I t h in k , y e s a ll e x e c s w e r e r u n n in g a ll o v e r l ik e h e a d l e s s 10 c h i c k e n s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t s o m e t h i n g h a d b e e n d o n e a b o u t t h is a n d i n a s f a r a s I u n d e r s t a n d I t h i n k Ms M u s h e w o u l d k n o w m o r e . I t h i n k th e r e w a s a n e m e r g e n c y b o a r d m e e t i n g t h a t t o o k p la c e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a t A ir w a y s P a r k . I f m y r e c o ll e c t i o n i s w e l l , a t s o m e h o te l a r o u n d th e a ir p o r t I t h i n k a n d th e n fr o m t h e r e I w a s m a d e t o u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e b o a r d h a d m a d e a r e s o lu t io n t h a t t h e a w a r d b e c a n c e l le d a n d le g a l h a d d r a f t e d t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n l e t te r f o r m y s i g n a t u r e . A n d I d i d a p p e n d m y s ig n a tu r e b e c a u s e I f e l t a ll e x e c u ti v e s w e r e in a g r e e m e n t th a t w e n e e d e d t o c a n c e l t h a t c o n tr a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , le t m e a s k t h is . W h e n S A A i s s u e d t e n d e r s . 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d th e r e b e a s t ip u l a ti o n t h a t o n l y S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n i e s , S o u t h A fr ic a n s w e r e e li g i b le t o b i d f o r t h e t e n d e r s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , C h a i r, u n l e s s w e a r e fo ll o w i n g t h e tr i p le P FA r o u te w h e r e a ll t h is is e m b e d d e d w i th i n a c r i te r i a ; t h e e v a l u a t i o n c r i te r i a t h a t w o u l d t h e n i n a w a y g iv e a d d e d a d v a n ta g e t o Page 238 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 S o u th A fr ic a n c o m p a n i e s b u t n o t t o s a y t h is is c o n f in e d o n ly t o S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n ie s a n d n o o n e e ls e c a n d o t h a t C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e w a s n o s ti p u l a ti o n t h a t i f y o u a r e n o t a S o u t h A fr ic a n b id d e r y o u m a y n o t b i d f o r t h e t e n d e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , t h e r e w a s n ’ t a n d m o r e s o , C h a ir, m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f S A A , s o r r y o f L S G S k y c h e f , i t ’s a c o m p a n y r e g is t e r e d h e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a . S o w h a t I ju s t d o n ’ t k n o w is it s c o m p o s i ti o n a n d a l l t h o s e k i n d o f th i n g s b u t i f w e w e r e t o d i g i n t o a l l t h a t y o u m a y fi n d t h a t i t j u s t o p e r a t e s lo c a l ly. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o o n e , i n r e g a r d t o t h a t p a r ti c u l a r t e n d e r t h e r e w a s n o s t i p u la t io n t h a t i f it w a s a c o m p a n y t h a t w a s n o t a S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n y i t w a s d is q u a li f ie d f r o m b id d i n g f r o m th e t e n d e r ? Tw o , y o u s a y it w a s , y o u t h i n k i t w a s r e g is t e r e d in S o u th A fr i c a ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir, a n d n o t t o m y r e c o l le c t i o n . A ls o , C h a ir, I th in k I w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e a s u b m is s i o n t o y o u t h a t s a y w e h a d t h a t c o n d i ti o n b y w h ic h i t r e m a i n s w e s t il l h a d a n o b li g a t i o n t o f o ll o w i t th r o u g h t h e e v a l u a ti o n p r o c e s s a n d th e n m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a w a r d t o t h e r i g h tf u l p e r s o n . N o w t h a t w e h a d g o n e t h r o u g h t h e w h o le p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , e v a l u a ti o n s a n d e v e r y t h in g a n d w e h a v e a w a r d e d 20 t h e n i t s t il l a ff ir m s m y v i e w t h a t t h e r e m u s t h a v e n o t b e e n th a t c o n d i ti o n b e c a u s e i f i t w a s t h e r e o b v i o u s ly I w o u l d h a v e n ’t t h o u g h t it w o u l d h a v e b e e n a c r i ti c a l c r it e r i a p a s s f a i l. S o a r e y o u a S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n y y e s ti c k , w e p r o c e e d to t h e n e x t l e v e l w i t h e v a lu a ti o n . A r e y o u a S o u t h A fr ic a n c o m p a n y, n o , w e r e j e c t b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o n c o m p l ia n t o r b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t m e e ti n g w h a t w e c a l l t h e c r i ti c a l c r it e r i a ? Page 239 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Of course. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t i n a s f a r a s I k n o w t h a t w a s n ’ t t h e c a s e , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e o n e l e a v e s o u t t h e q u e s t io n w h e t h e r i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n C o n s t i tu t io n a l t o p u t t h a t k i n d o f s ti p u l a t i o n . O k a y a lr i g h t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O f w h i c h ju s t a s m a l l p o i n t . W h ic h is w h y in m y v i e w w h e n I l o o k a t S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s i t ’s m o r e o f , y o u k n o w a ll A fr ic a n s lo v e S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s . Ye s , w h e r e v e r y o u a r e in 10 t h e w o r ld w h e n y o u s e e S o u t h A fr ic a n Ai r w a y s f ly p a s t y o u y o u r h e a r t b e a ts fa s t b e c a u s e i t ’s f o r A f r i c a a n d t h a t ’s th e mi n d - s e t a n d t h e s p ir i t in w h i c h I lo o k a t S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d tr y in g t o c o n fi n e it to j u s t S o u th A fr ic a n b o r d e r s i n m y v i e w is a l it t le b i t y o u k n o w u n w a r r a n t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c to r D a h w a , y o u i n d ic a te d th a t y o u d id s i g n t h e le t t e r t h a t c a n c e ll e d t h e a w a r d t o L S G S k y c h e f . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t o w h o m w a s th e c o n t r a c t t h e n a w a r d e d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w a s a w a r d e d to A ir C h e fs A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d … ( i n te r v e n t i o n ) . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : To ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A ir C h e fs . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A ir C h e f s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h ic h i s a s u b s id i a r y o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Page 240 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d y o u k n o w a t t h e t i m e w h o w a s o n – w h o w a s t h e C h a ir o f th e b o a r d o f A ir C h e fs ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I a m n o t s o s u r e b u t a ll I k n o w is between Ms Muyeni and Ms Kwinana. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : O n e o f t h e t w o o f th e m ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s o n e o f th e m ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : J a b u t I a m n o t s o s u r e , C h a ir, b u t I k n o w t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h a t b o a r d b u t n o t s u r e a s t o i n w h a t c a p a c i t ie s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Th a n k y o u . A n d if y o u g o to p a g e 1 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t p a r a g r a p h 5 1 . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M s H o f m e y e r. D o c t o r D a h w a , y o u c o v e r e d t h i s b u t I t h i n k I i m m e d i a t e ly a s k y o u a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n a n d w e fo c u s e d o n s o m e t h i n g e ls e . L e t’s j u s t g o b a c k to w h e n y o u c a m e fr o m C a p e To w n . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e th is w h o l e is s u e a b o u t S A A e x e c u ti v e s g i v i n g a 20 t e n d e r fo r c a t e r i n g to , w a s i t a G e r m a n c o m p a n y th e r e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It was a German company and implying that South A fr ic a n s c a n ’ t c o o k w h e n th a t w h o le t h i n g e r u p t e d , y o u s a id t h a t w h e n you came back. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. Page 241 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a b o a r d m e e t in g , a n u r g e n t b o a r d m e e ti n g a n d y o u f e l t lik e a ll t h e e x e c u t iv e s o r m o s t o f t h e e x e c u t iv e s w e r e a g a in s t , w a n te d t h is t e n d e r t o b e c a n c e l l e d . J u s t g iv e m e th e p ic tu r e o f e x a c tl y h o w t h e s i t u a t io n w a s w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k a n d ju s t g o t h r o u g h t h a t a g a i n . I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I s h o u l d s a y, C h a ir, I w e n t o n w h e n w e c a m e b a c k t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y w e w e r e a l l i n o ffi c e . I w e n t b a c k w i th m y b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l a n d l a te r o n I s t a r t e d , I th i n k it w a s M s M u s h e w h o c a l le d m e a n d t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s a b o a r d m e e ti n g g o i n g o n 10 a n d s h e g o t w in d th a t th is n e e d e d t o b e c a n c e ll e d . A n d l e g a l w e r e a lr e a d y b u s y d r a f ti n g t h e g r o u n d s a n d o r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n l e t te r i f y o u m a y w a n t t o c a l l i t a n d th e y w e r e c o m i n g t o s e e m e . A n d t h e n l a t e r o n I r e m e m b e r M s Z o o k s , w h o i s th e c u r r e n t a c t in g C E O c a m e t o m y o ffic e a s w e l l a n d t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s b e e n th a t r e s o lu t io n t o s a y w e n e e d e d to c a n c e l th is . I r e m e m b e r a s k in g a b o u t th e r e s o l u ti o n w h ic h I b e li e v e I m u s t h a v e s e e n , C h a ir, b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e r e i t s i t ti n g w h e r e t h is w a s m a d e t h a t w e n e e d e d t h e c a n c e l la t io n t o h a p p e n a n d th e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h il s t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a r e s o l u ti o n o f th e b o a r d 20 o r a r e s o lu t io n o f s o m e o f th e b o a r d , y o u r c o m m i t t e e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k it w a s o f t h e b o a r d b e c a u s e t h is c a m e fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s . Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e l e t t e r w a s d r a f te d f o r m e b y l e g a l b e c a u s e g e n e r a l ly i t w a s u s d r a f t in g a n y le t t e r s a s p r o c u r e m e n t . W e d r a f t th e m t h e n w e t a k e t h e m t o l e g a l f o r e d i ti n g a n d m a y b e a d d i ti o n s o r a n y t h i n g o f t h e f o r m b u t i n Page 242 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h is c a s e th e l e t te r c a m e fr o m le g a l d r a f t e d a n d d o n e fo r m e a n d I j u s t appended my signature and we communicated. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e o n l y d is c u s s i o n y o u h a d w i t h a n y b o d y a t S A A o n t h e d a y a r o u n d t h e a l le g e d n e e d t o c a n c e l t h e a w a r d w a s w i th w h o and who and who? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t’s q u i t e a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e , C h a ir. O b v io u s M s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e n t io n e d a b o u t tw o o r t h r e e . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 Ye s M s Z o o k s R a m a s i , w e s p o k e a b o u t it . Ms T h u l i M u s h e , w e s p o k e a b o u t i t a n d I th i n k t h e c o m m o d i ty manager responsible. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d I r e m e m b e r s o m e p e o p l e b e c a u s e p e o p l e k e p t c o m i n g t o m y o ffic e a n d i t w a s m o r e l ik e a n u r g e n t t h i n g t h a t n e e d e d t o h a p p e n . I h a d to c a l l t h e L S G a n d I s p o k e to s o m e l a d y, e v e n r i g h t t h e r e t o n o ti fy th e m t h a t t h e y n e e d e d n o t to p r o c e e d w i t h s e t ti n g u p b e c a u s e w e h a d j u s t a w a r d e d a n d t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y b u s y tr y i n g t o m o b il iz e t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y s t a r te d t h e ir w o r k o n ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d th e l e t te r t o t h e c o m p a n y, h a d i t g o n e t o te ll t h e m 20 y o u h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d th e te n d e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , e a r li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d i t g o n e b y th a t ti m e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. Page 243 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y h a d n o t s ta r t e d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . CHAIRPERSON: Working. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th in k t h e y w e r e i n t h e p r o c e s s o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : P r e p a r in g . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M o b i li z i n g r e s o u r c e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t . S o y o u w e r e g i v e n a le t t e r th a t h a d b e e n d r a f t e d b y t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s c a n c e l li n g t h e a w a r d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e le t t e r w a s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e s u c c e s s f u l bidder? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u D o c t o r D a h w a . I f w e j u s t p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o n p a g e 1 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u s t a t e t h e r e , 20 I h a v e s in c e l e a r n e d t h a t t h e r e is c u r r e n tly C o u r t li ti g a ti o n between SAA and LSG. Do you see that? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H o w d i d y o u c o m e t o l e a r n o f th a t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : F o ll o w i n g th e s e o n g o i n g p r o b in g a n d Page 244 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 in v e s t i g a t io n s b y th e C o m m i s s i o n . I t h in k th e y g o t t o p ic k u p t h a t a s p a r t o f m a y b e t h e m a n y o th e r t h i n g s t h a t th e y w e r e lo o k i n g f o r b u t I d i d n ’ t k n o w a ll th is l o n g t h a t th e r e w a s t h a t li ti g a ti o n t h o u g h I w a s n o t s u r p r is e d . CHAIRPERSON: Were you can agreement w it h t h is letter of c a n c e l la t io n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k C h a ir I j u s t d i d i t fo r a d u t y a n d m o s t – m o s tl y b e c a u s e a ll m y o t h e r e x e c u ti v e s w e r e i n a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e j u s t d o s o a n d i f I – I d i d n ’ t q u i t e t h i n k I w a n t e d to b e th e o d d 10 o n e o u t t o s a y n o , n o l e t’s n o t d o i t b u t e v e r y o n e w a s s a y i n g le t ’s d o i t a n d I s a i d i t ’s fi n e w e c a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W h o h a d a w a r d e d th e t e n d e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d a w a r d e d th e te n d e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u a w a r d e d it y o u w e r e s a ti s f i e d i t w a s t h e correct thing to do? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h i c h i s w h y I d e fe n d e d th a t e v e n a t P a r li a m e n t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g th a t w a s s a id t o y o u b y t h o s e w h o w a n te d t h e a w a r d s to b e c a n c e l l e d t o s h o w t h a t y o u m a y have been wrong in awarding the tender? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o t fr o m a n y b o a r d m e m b e r n o r fr o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r c o ll e a g u e s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M y c o ll e a g u e s , n o n o th i n g l ik e th a t , Page 245 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W a s th a t j u s t s o m e b ig n o is e t h a t h e s h o u ld b e c a n c e l le d ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , a n d f o r m e I t o o k it to b e a q u i t e s e n s i t iv e is s u e y o u k n o w p a r tic u la r ly w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e tr y i n g t o a r o u s e th e f e e l in g s o f t h e g e n e r a l p u b li c t o s a y y o u k n o w y o u g u y s y o u a r e li k e b e i n g p e r c e i v e d a s y o u c a n ’ t c o o k . I m e a n t h a t w a s a b i t to o m u c h o f a s t a te m e n t a n d o b v i o u s ly c o n s i d e r i n g t h e s e n s it iv it i e s a r o u n d t h a t m a t te r I d i d n ’ t w a n t to b e t h e o d d o n e o u t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr y i n g t o d e f e n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A g a i n s t s u c h a p r a c ti c e b u t i n my m i n d l ik e I h a d i n d i c a t e d I k n e w it w a s n o t th e r i g h t th in g w e w e r e doing. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u k n e w i t w a s n o t r ig h t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u l o o k e d a t t h e s e n s i ti v i ti e s a n d s o o n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 Ar o u n d t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d is c u s s i o n , y e s , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , i f I c o u l d ju s t f o ll o w u p o n t h a t b e c a u s e th e ti m e li n e is in t e r e s ti n g to m e . Yo u h a d th e m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 n d o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 w h e n y o u w e r e k e p t t h e r e l a t e o n t h e Fr i d a y fo r th e b e t t e r p a r t o f w h a t w e t h i n k is a b o u t e i g h t h o u r s d e a li n g w i th t h o s e Page 246 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 le t t e r s o f a w a r d . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u t h e n a s I h a v e i t s i g n e d t h e le t t e r c a n c e l li n g t h e a w a r d t o L S G S k y c h e fs o n t h e f o l l o w in g Tu e s d a y, t h e 6 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I w o u l d l i k e to , I th in k s o . Ye s , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I c o u ld t a k e y o u t o t h e l e tt e r if i t’s u s e f u l b u t if w e c a n t a k e i t f o r p r e s e n t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 10 B u t I t h in k f r o m m y s t a te m e n t I c a n s e e i t s a y s 6 t h o f O c t o b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : 6 t h o f O c t o b e r. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W a s y o u r w il li n g n e s s t o s i g n o n t h e 6 t h r e l a t e d a t a ll t o th e e v e n t s th a t h a d h a p p e n e d o n t h e 2 n d ? I s th e r e a n y c o n n e c t io n t h e r e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k , C h a ir, i f y o u c a n c o m e a g a in . I a m f a il in g to g e t s o m e t h in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e q u e s ti o n is c e r t a i n e v e n ts h a d ta k e n p l a c e a t t h e m e e t in g o f t h e 2 n d . I t w a s 2 n d o f O c t o b e r ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: 2 n d o f O c t o b e r. S o t h e q u e s ti o n is w h e th e r y o u r d e c is i o n t o s i g n y o u r – t o s ig n th is l e t te r o f c a n c e ll a ti o n w h e t h e r y o u r d e c is i o n to d o s o w a s in a n y w a y r e la t e d t o w h a t i t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 2 n d o f O c to b e r. Page 247 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O k a y. I t h i n k th a t ’s w h a t I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t th e s e n s i ti v i ti e s a r o u n d t h e is s u e s . I f y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t I w a s s tr u g g li n g w i th a n d n o w w e a r e l ik e c o m in g u p w i t h o t h e r is s u e s a l o n g t h e s a m e l in e s t h a t w o u l d s u g g e s t s o m e f o r m o f , o k a y y o u k n o w b u t i t w a s j u s t a d i ffic u lt t h i n g a n d I w o u l d li k e t o b e l ie v e , C h a ir, b e c a u s e i n m y s i x t h s e n s e I h e a r d t h a t t h e r e w a s th a t s e n s i tiv i ty w h ic h I d i d a n d w a n t to tr y a n d c r o s s p a s s w i th a t th a t p a r ti c u l a r p o in t in t i m e . E s p e c i a l ly t h a t th e r e w a s li k e a g r e e m e n t b y a ll o t h e r p l a y e r s o r e x e c u tiv e s in c l u d i n g t h e b o a r d . I j u s t th o u g h t w o u l d l e t t h e s l e e p i n g 10 d o g s li e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . D o c t o r D a h w a , I t h e n l ik e t o r e tu r n t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f t h e l e tt e r s o f a w a r d t h a t y o u w e r e k e p t a t th e o ffic e f o r m a n y h o u r s o n t h e F r i d a y, t h e 2 n d o f O c t o b e r. A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t fr o m y o u r a n s w e r s to t h e C h a ir, t h a t m e e ti n g c o n c lu d e d o n t h e b a s i s that you gave an undertaking to prepare those le t t e r s by the W e d n e s d a y o f t h e f o ll o w i n g w e e k . I s t h a t c o r r e c t M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W h a t th e n h a p p e n e d ? D i d y o u d o s o ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , I d i d n ’ t a n d I t h i n k w h a t I t h e n d i d I w r o te a n o t h e r b o a r d p a p e r e x p l a i n i n g m y p o s i ti o n w h ic h w a s , i t m u s t h a v e b e e n s i g n e d b y m y s e l f a s th e i n i t ia t o r a n d s u p p o r t e d b y M s M u s h e a n d m y l i n e m a n a g e r M r H o f m e y e r i f I s t il l r e m e m b e r. B u t n o w r ig h t u p to the time when I left we had not r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . Page 248 of 279 got response to that 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t i f y o u f o ll o w t h e c h r o n o l o g y t h a t w e ’v e c a n v a s s e d a lr e a d y th a t W e d n e s d a y w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e 7 t h o f O c to b e r o n m y c a lc u la t io n b e c a u s e t h e M o n d a y w a s t h e 5 t h . Th a t w a s w h e n y o u didn’t attend because you were worried about the EFF march. Correct? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d th e n w e ’ v e s e e n t h a t o n t h e 9 t h o f O c t o b e r w h ic h is th e Fr i d a y o f th a t w e e k . T h a t i s w h e n Ms K w in a n a w r i t e s t h a t le t t e r s e t ti n g o u t a ll o f h e r m is g iv i n g s a b o u t y o u r c o n d u c t . Is t h a t a c o r r e c t r e f le c ti o n o f t h e c h r o n o l o g y ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t is , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d j u s t to h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e c le a r. D e s p i t e g iv i n g t h a t u n d e r t a k in g o n t h e F r i d a y w h i c h y o u h a v e i n d i c a t e d t o th e C h a ir, y o u g a v e t o b e r e l e a s e d fr o m t h a t m e e t in g . Yo u d i d n o t s u b s e q u e n t ly p r e p a r e th o s e l e t te r s . I s t h a t r i g h t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t l e t t e r fr o m M s K w i n a n a w h ic h w a s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d m a d e a l le g a t i o n s t h a t y o u h a d li e d . W a s t h a t w r i t t e n a f t e r t h e d e a d li n e b y w h i c h y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to h a v e w r it t e n t h o s e le t t e r s a w a r d i n g th e te n d e r t o th o s e t w o c o m p a n i e s ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h i n k s o , C h a ir, b e c a u s e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m t h e p r o c e e d i n g s i s c o r r e c t is W e d n e s d a y w a s t h e 7 t h a n d t h e n th is c a m e o n t h e 9 t h o r i t w a s in it i a t e d o n t h e 9 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l, t h e m e e t in g w a s o n a F r i d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e E F F w a s a c c o r d in g t o M s M u y e n i s u p p o s e d to Page 249 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h a v e h a p p e n e d o n th e M o n d a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e d e a d l i n e f o r y o u t o s e n d t h o s e l e tt e r s w a s – was it a Wednesday? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W e d n e s d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Wednesday? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e l e t te r fr o m M s K w in a n a t h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n h a p p e n e d l a t e r t h a t w e e k ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n th e 9 t h , y e s , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: On the 9th. Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e a b l e to s a y w h a t d a t e th e W e d n e s d a y w a s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s , s o t h e W e d n e s d a y w a s t h e 7 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : 7 t h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o w e h a v e t h e F r id a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o r r y, M o n d a y t h e 5 t h . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W h e n t h e m a r c h is s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n . Wednesday the 7t h. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h e d e a d l i n e f o r t h e u n d e r t a k e – t h e le t t e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h e n th e l e t t e r fr o m M s K w i n a n a i s d a te d Page 250 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 t h e 9 t h w h i c h w o u ld b e t h a t F r i d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t w e a c tu a ll y s a w i t w a s e m a il e d to M s M u y e n i a c t u a ll y t h e f o ll o w i n g M o n d a y th e 1 2 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : But that is the full sequence as I have the f a c ts . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I m u s t j u s t s a y t h a t e a r li e r o n I m a y h a v e t h o u g h t , I m a y h a v e g o t c o n fu s e d a n d th o u g h t t h a t t h e m e e ti n g o f t h e 10 2nd October was 2nd Dec ember when we s poke about, when I was s a y in g h a v e w e p a s s e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s , w h e r e a r e w e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: So we had passed, ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W e h a d p a s s e d i t i n ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : O n m y s c h e d u l e w e w e r e s ti ll c o m i n g to i t . S o that might have created the. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C o n fu s i o n . T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. B e f o r e w e g o t o y o u r s u s p e n s io n w h ic h is – w h ic h o c c u r s o n th e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r, I d o ju s t w a n t t o a s k o n e o r t w o q u e s ti o n s a b o u t th e m e e t in g w i t h M r Va n Page 251 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 Rooyen. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u s a i d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n to o k p l a c e b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r Va n R o o y e n . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W o u ld th e o t h e r a t t e n d e e s a t t h a t m e e ti n g h a v e o v e r h e a r d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a n d b e e n in p r o x i m it y to d o s o o r w e r e t h e y e ls e w h e r e i n t h e r o o m w h e n t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e y w e r e i n t h e r o o m w i th m e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W e w e r e in t h e s a m e r o o m , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o w h a t th e y h a v e o v e r h e a r d w h a t M r Va n Rooyen was saying to you? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , th e y d i d , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d b u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e th e y d i d n ’ t p a r t ic i p a te in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , n o t e v e n o n e o f th e m , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r i t ’s o v e r h e a r in g . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H m . Page 252 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Th e y w e r e , w e r e y o u s i t ti n g a r o u n d a t a b l e o r a t a t a b le ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , i t w a s n ’ t . N o r m a l ly w h e n w e d o , w h e n w e d i d o u r m e e ti n g s , C h a ir, i t w a s o n r o u n d ta b le s . CHAIRPERSON: On? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : O n a r o u n d t a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : B u t i n t h i s c a s e i t w a s n ’ t a r o u n d t a b le b e c a u s e I c a n v i s u a liz e t h e t w o e s s a y o ff ic i a l s s t a n d – I m e a n a t t h e 10 w a ll s o f th e r o o m . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d I w a s s it t in g p r e t ty c l o s e t o Mr Va n R o o y e n a n d a n o t h e r g e n tl e m a n w a s s i t ti n g o n my le f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o o v e r h e a r in g m ig h t , h e ’s p r o b a b ly c o r r e c t . S o th e w a y w h e r e t h e y w e r e s t a n d i n g . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h e r e y o u a n d M r Va n R o o y e n a n d t h e p e r s o n that he was with were, where the three of you. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H m . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s l ik e th e y w e r e n o t m e a n t t o b e p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g ? T h e y w e r e s t a n d i n g a g a in s t t h e w a ll I th i n k y o u s a i d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e – a n d w e r e h a v in g a m e e t i n g w i t h M r Va n R o o y e n a n d t h e p e r s o n th a t h e c a m e w i t h ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir. I t h i n k w h a t w a s v e r y Page 253 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 unusual. CHAIRPERSON: They would have heard? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , b e c a u s e i t w a s a s m a ll . I t w a s a m e e ti n g r o o m i t w a s n ’ t lik e a b ig b o a r d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I m e a n a b o a r d r o o m . I t w a s a s m a l l boardroom. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Yo u k n o w t h o s e s i d e r o o m s w h e r e y o u 10 h a v e y o u r m e e ti n g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , b u t t h a t ’s w h y I th e n s a y i n m y v ie w t h a t it s e e m e d l ik e th is w a s a p r e - t a l k e d is s u e a n d I w a s t h e o n ly o d d o n e i n t e r m s o f w h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e . S o I w a s l ik e b e i n g b r o u g h t u p to s p e e d t o s a y t e l l y o u w h a t t h is is w h a t n e e d s t o h a p p e n b u t m y c o l le a g u e s a lr e a d y k n e w a b o u t w h a t th e is s u e is a b o u t w h ic h I didn’t know of CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , it is a ls o j u s t s tr a n g e th a t y o u k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t a m e e ti n g y o u g e t a s k e d t o c o m e t o a m e e t in g a n d y o u d i s c o v e r 20 w h e n y o u a r e i n t h e m e e t i n g t h a t a c t u a l ly y o u a r e o n e o f tw o s o l e p a r t ic ip a n ts . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p e o p l e w h o c a l l e d y o u a r e th e r e b u t th e y a r e n o t t a k i n g p a r t i n a n y w a y in t h e d i s c u s s io n . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e , C h a ir. S o e v e n t h e b o d y Page 254 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 la n g u a g e is a s w e ll , C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h i s i s n o t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a s u p e r i o r o r t h e p e r s o n y o u r e p o r t t o c a l ls y o u t o a m e e t in g . I t ’s ju s t s o m e b o d y o n t h e s a m e le v e l a s y o u r s e l f o r a p e e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Tr u e , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u D o c t o r D a h w a . I f w e c a n t h e n m o v e t o p a g e 1 8 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r s u s p e n s i o n . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d t h a t a s I h a v e i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 2 o c c u r s o n t h e d a y a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g w i th M r Va n R o o y e n . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o w e a r e n o w i n ti m e a t th e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r 2015. Correct? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n s o n t h e d a y ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th a n k y o u , C h a ir. I h a d m y d a y a s u s u a l y o u k n o w t h a t’s d o in g m y d a y - t o - d a y a n d s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d , I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d t h r e e - is h I g o t t o b e t o l d t h a t I w a s w a n t e d a t s i x th 20 fl o o r b o a r d r o o m . S o I w e n t th e r e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same boardroom where you have spent a l m o s t th e w h o l e d a y w i t h tw o m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d o n t h e 2 n d o f October? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , b u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w a s it a n o t h e r b o a r d r o o m ? Page 255 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 MR MASIMBA P H I L L I P D A H WA : I didn’t even enter i n to the b o a r d r o o m . S o b u t n o w w h a t h a p p e n s i s t h e l a y o u t , y o u g e t to t h e li f ts a n d a s s o o n a s y o u c o m e o u t o f t h e l i f ts y o u s e e t h e r e c e p t io n a n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e c e p t i o n t h e r e i s t h e v a r i o u s w a y s to t h e v a r i o u s b o a r d r o o m s t h a t a r e o n s i x th f lo o r. S o w h e n I w e n t t o s ix th f l o o r, C h a ir, I s a w M r Z w a n e w h o w a s n o w t h e a c t in g C E O a f t e r M s T h u li M u s h e h a d g o n e b a c k t o h e r o r ig i n a l r o l e a s G M H R a n d h e w a s s t a n d i n g w it h M s M u y e n i , y o u k n o w j u s t c l o s e to th e r e c e p ti o n a r e a f o r s i x fl o o r. T h e n a s s o o n a s I a p p e a r e d , t h e y m o v e d b a c k in t o t h e b o a r d r o o m . T h e n I w a s 10 g r e e t e d b y a la d y k n o w w h o c a m e fr o m li k e b e h i n d m e . Th e n s h e in tr o d u c e d h e r s e l f t o m e a s t h e n e w in t e r i m c h i e f f i n a n c e o ff ic e r a n d s h e to ld m e h e r n a m e t h a t s h e w a s M s P h u m e z a N a n c y a n d w i t h h e r w a s a n o t h e r g e n tl e m a n w h o t o l d m e th e n a m e a s w e ll a n d s h e a s k e d m e t h a t w e n e e d e d to m o v e t o h e r o ff ic e . S o w e t o o k a w a lk i n t o h e r o ffic e a n d s o o n w e e n t e r e d th a t o ff ic e . S h e l e f t b r i e fl y. I t w a s n ’ t , I d o n ’t t h i n k th a t w a s h e r o ff ic e b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e . It s e e m e d l ik e i t w a s ju s t a s id e m e e t in g r o o m a g a in b u t s h e t h e n l e f t . S h e l e f t m e w i th a g e n tl e m a n a n d t h e n s h e c a m e b a c k h o ld i n g s o m e p a p e r s a n d th e n s h e s a i d D o c to r D a h w a , u n fo r t u n a t e ly I h a v e b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o p u t y o u o n 20 special le a v e because there are some issues that are being in v e s t i g a t e d i n y o u r a r e a a n d s o t h e c o m p a n y w a n ts t o p u t y o u o n s p e c i a l l e a v e a n d th e n I w a s h a n d e d o v e r th e l e t te r. I r e a d t h r o u g h i t a n d I s i g n e d a c c e p t a n c e o f t h e l e t te r a n d th e B M K l a w y e r w h o I w a s t o l d h e w a s a n e x t e r n a l ; th a t is Mr M b u l e l i M u k h o l is i w a s w i t h h e r. H e a ls o s ig n e d a s a w i tn e s s t o s a y I h a d b e e n g i v e n th a t l e tt e r. S o I ju s t Page 256 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 w e n t b a c k t o m y o ffi c e . I s a i d t h a n k y o u . T h e r e ’s n o t h i n g I c o u l d h a v e d o n e a n d I w e n t b a c k t o my o ffic e , w e n t t h r o u g h t h e l e t t e r p r o p e r l y a n d r e a l iz e d I h a d b e e n s u s p e n d e d w i t h i m m e d i a te e ff e c t o r p u t o n s p e c i a l le a v e to u s e t h e ir w o r d s . S o I p a c k e d m y th i n g s b e c a u s e I t h e n d i d n ’ t k n o w a n d u n fo r t u n a t e ly S A A h a d a h is to r y o r h a s a h is to r y o f lo o k i n g e x e c u tiv e s o u t . S o I d i d n ’ t w a n t th e e m b a r r a s s m e n t o f l e a v i n g t h e n tr y i n g t o c o m e a n d ta k e y o u r t h i n g s t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y a n d y o u fi n d y o u h a v e g o t n o m o r e a c c e s s t o y o u r o ff ic e . S o I w e n t t o m y o ffic e , I p a c k e d m y t h in g s a n d I l e f t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o , i n t h e m e a n ti m e i t l o o k s li k e t w o th i n g s th a t h a p p e n e d . O n e , t h e r e h a d b e e n a c h a n g e in t e r m s o f t h e p e r s o n a c ti n g a s C E O a s w e ll a s a c h a n g e i n te r m s o f t h e p e r s o n a c ti n g a s c h ie f fi n a n c i a l o ffi c e r. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a d th e r e w a s M r M e y e r w h o w a s t h e c h ie f fi n a n c i a l o ffi c e r. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e r e p o r ti n g t o h i m b u t o n t h is p a r tic u la r a n d th e n th e r e w a s M s M u s h e w h o h a d b e e n a c t i n g C E O . Is t h a t r ig h t ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: S o , o n t h is d a y i t s e e m s l ik e y o u , w ill c e r t a i n l y y o u s e e m t o d is c o v e r th a t th e r e i s a n a c ti n g C F O ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u d is c o v e r in g t h a t fo r t h e fir s t t i m e o r y o u h a d b e e n t o ld ? Page 257 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : It w a s n ’ t f o r th e fir s t ti m e b e c a u s e a n email. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a n e m a il ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : H a d b e e n c ir c u l a t e d to s a y. I th in k i t w a s c i r c u l a te d o n t h e 2 9 t h . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n . CHAIRPERSON: But you had not met the person? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , I h a d n o t m e t w i t h h e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d t h e n Mr M e y e r h a d l e f t w h e n ? A f e w d a y s b e f o r e th e p r e v i o u s m o n t h ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir, I t h in k w e h a v e h a d e v id e n c e o n th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : M s S t i m p le . I th in k it w a s m i d N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Because and then Ms Nancy comes in a c c o r d i n g t o h e r e v i d e n c e o n t h e 2 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r. S o t h a t a c c o r d s with an email around the 29th. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y s o t h o s e t w o c h a n g e s h a v e h a p p e n e d ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r Zw a n e w a s n o w t h e a c ti n g C E O a n d M s N a n c y w a s t h e a c ti n g C F O ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e l e t te r o f s u s p e n s io n y o u g o t fr o m M s N a n c y ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : M s N a n c y, y e s , C h a ir. Page 258 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. D o c t o r D a h w a , w h e t h e r t h is is s i g n i f ic a n t a r e n o t I ’ m n o t s u r e b u t I d o ju s t w a n t t o g o to y o u r l e t te r o f s u s p e n s i o n t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d o n t h a t d a te , t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r. Yo u w i ll fi n d i t u n d e r t a b 2 2 o n p a g e 3 0 7 a n d w h a t I h a v e j u s t n o ti c e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y, c a n y o u c o n fir m t h is i s y o u r l e t te r o f suspension that you received on the 3rd of December? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : 10 Yo u r e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t b o th M s N a n c y a n d t h e l a w y e r w h o w a s w i t h h e r M r M u k h o l i s i h a d s i g n e d t h a t l e tt e r o f s u s p e n s i o n b u t i f I g o t o p a g e 3 0 9 I o n l y s e e M s N a n c y ’s s i g n a t u r e . W h e r e , c o u ld t h e r e h a v e b e e n a n o t h e r p a g e t o t h is o r w h e r e w a s t h a t s ig n a tu r e o r m i g h t y o u h a v e b e e n m i s t a k e n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , I w a s n ’ t m is t a k e n . I t h i n k t h e r e m u s t b e a n o m i s s i o n o r t h e l a s t p a g e t o t h i s d o c u m e n t is m is s in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W e s h o u ld t h e n tr y a n d s o u r c e t h a t j u s t f o r c o m p le t io n b u t y o u r e c e iv e i t . Yo u g o b a c k t o y o u r o ffi c e a n d a s I h a v e y o u r te s t i m o n y, y o u t h e n le a v e th e b u il d i n g . Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , a f t e r p a c k in g u p m y t h i n g s I d id , 20 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e a ft e r ? I f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w e c a n a g a in j u s t tr a c k t h e s e q u e n c e o f events. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Page 259 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e w e l e a v e t h e le t te r o f s u s p e n s i o n , y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h a d n o t h a d a n y i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h M s N a n c y b y th e t i m e y o u w e r e g i v e n th is le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir. T h a t w a s my f ir s t e n c o u n te r w it h h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u s a i d th a t w h e n s h e g a v e y o u t h e l e tt e r s h e s a i d s h e h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o s u s p e n d y o u o r t o p u t y o u r s p e c i a l le a v e ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir, a n d i n te r e s t in g ly I h e a r d in h e r e v i d e n c e a s w e ll t h a t s h e h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d . S h e h a s s a i d i t herself. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I ’ m s a y i n g y e s , C h a ir, a n d a ls o lis t e n i n g to h e r e v id e n c e i n t h is r o o m I t h in k s h e c o n fi r m e d t o t h a t e ffe c t a s w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. Yo u w il l r e c a ll w e d i d a s k M s N a n c y i n th e c o u r s e o f h e r e v i d e n c e w h e t h e r s h e h a d a n y 20 k n o w l e d g e o f th e g r o u n d s o f s u s p e n s i o n i n th is l e t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I w a s tr y i n g t o r e m e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : And she had said no and she as a c o n s e q u e n c e c o u ld n o t ju s t i fy. CHAIRPERSON: Deal with it, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : O r d e a l w i t h th e v e r a c i ty o f t h e g r o u n d s . Page 260 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S h e h a d s i m p ly b e e n g iv e n i t a s I u n d e r s t a n d h e r e v i d e n c e a n d b e c a u s e s h e w a s i n th e d ir e c t li n e o f r e p o r ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S h e u n d e r s to o d i t t o b e h e r r o l e to t h e n is s u e t h e s u s p e n s i o n n o ti c e t o D o c t o r D a h w a . CHAIRPERSON: D i d w e a s k h e r w h o h a d g i v e n h e r in s t r u c t i o n s t o s u s p e n d D o c to r D a h w a ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I a m n o t c e r t a in . 10 CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e th a t ’s i m p o r t a n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I t is i m p o r t a n t . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is i m p o r ta n t a n d w h a t g r o u n d s s h e w a s to ld . Sorry? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th in k I l is te n e d t o t h e p r o c e e d i n g s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u r r e c o l le c ti o n m a y b e b e t te r t h a n o u r s . CHAIRPERSON: Than ours. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W i th k e e n i n te r e s t , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : 20 B e c a u s e t h a t p e r t a in e d t o m y p a r t ic u l a r c a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S h e d o e s s a y t h a t i f y o u e v e n g o t o t h e r e c o r d i n g i s th a t s h e g o t t h a t i n s tr u c t i o n fr o m M s P h i n a n a a n d t h e b o a r d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . Page 261 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : And that the charges had already b e e n c r a f te d b y s o m e e x t e r n a l la w y e r s a n d s o s h e w a s j u s t g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e m a n d a t e to i m p l e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k m a y b e s o m e o f y o u r c o ll e a g u e s a s s i s t i n g y o u m i g h t n e e d a t s o m e s ta g e t o j u s t h a v e a l o o k o r m a y b e y o u m i g h t , i f t h e y f in d i t y o u c a n h a v e a l o o k a n d s e e w h e t h e r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : W e ’ ll p u t it in . CHAIRPERSON: W h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a n y n e e d to b r i n g h e r b a c k a n d supplement on that or not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s , in d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : B u t w e a r e i n d e b te d t o y o u D o c t o r D a h w a . I t h i n k y o u r m e m o r y i s s li g h tly b e t t e r. It m i g h t b e t h e ti m e o f th e d a y n o t h i n g e ls e b u t w e w il l l o o k f o r t h e t r a n s c r i p t C h a i r a n d f o ll o w it u p i f t h e r e ’s a n is s u e o f a n y g a p . D o c to r D a h w a , t h e n i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d C h a ir, j u s t in t e r m s o f ti m e w e v e r y c l o s e to t h e e n d . 20 S o I’ m q u i te o p ti m is t ic th a t w e w il l c o m p l e t e i n th e n e x t w h i l e b u t i f y o u p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 5 4 o n p a g e 1 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. Yo u r e fl e c t there what happened on the 9th of December and what you made of that event. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t th a t ? Page 262 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : F o ll o w i n g m y p la c e m e n t o n s p e c i a l le a v e I k n o w a t ti m e s i t ’s r e f e r r e d t o a s s u s p e n s i o n b u t a c c o r d i n g to t h e le t t e r I r e c e iv e d i t w a s a s p e c i a l l e a v e . I w e n t t o s e e k l e g a l c o u n s e l i n S a n d t o n a n d a s w e a r r iv e d a t t h e p l a c e y o u k n o w th e r e w a s a b i g s c r e e n , t e le v is i o n s c r e e n w h ic h w a s t a lk in g a b o u t M r D e s Va n R o o y e n n o w h a v in g b e e n a p p o in t e d t h e M i n i s t e r o f F in a n c e . Yo u k n o w I t e l l y o u I w a s w it h m y w i fe , I d i d n ’ t k n o w w h a t t o d o , C h a ir, a n d I r e a l iz e d t h a t I h a d u n d e r m i n e d o r u n d e r e s t i m a t e d t h e k in d o f p e r s o n I h a d h a d a m e e ti n g w i th a n d l i te r a lly I w a s s h a k e n a n d j a , I j u s t f e l t w e w e r e n o t 10 s a f e a n d w e n e e d e d to m a k e p la n s a n d s o s a i d m y w i f e . A n d y o u f in d a s s o o n a s w e g o t h o m e , C h a ir, w e s e n t a l e t t e r t o Ms N a n c y. W e s e n t a n e m a i l r a t h e r t o M s N a n c y w h e r e I s o u g h t t h a t I b e a ll o w e d to g o to Zi m b a b w e a n d b e w i t h m y f a m i ly a n d I g a v e my c o n t a c t d e t a i ls t h a t ju s t in c a s e y o u n e e d e d m e fo r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s s h e w o u l d c o n t a c t m e o n t h o s e r e s p e c ti v e n u m b e r s . A n d I g a v e t h a t , I a l s o c o p i e d i n t h a t le t t e r t o G M H R w h o w a s n o w M s M u s h e a n d s h e r e s p o n d e d b a c k to m e a n d s h e s a id i t ’s f in e y o u c a n g o . W e w i ll c a ll y o u a s i n w h e n w e w a n t y o u a n d a c o u p l e o f d a y s la t e r w e p a c k e d o u r b a g s a n d o ff I w e n t w it h m y f a m ily t o Z i m b a b w e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e s h a k e n w h e n y o u s a w t h is n e w s i te m , y o u h e a r d th is n e w s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s i t t h a t d r o v e y o u t o d e c id e a s a fa m i ly o r y o u a n d y o u r w i f e y o u m u s t g o t o Z i m b a b w e a ft e r ? W h a t ’s t h e c o n n e c ti o n b e t w e e n t h a t n e w s i te m o f M r Va n R o o y e n b e in g m a d e M i n is te r o f Page 263 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 Fi n a n c e a s I u n d e r s ta n d w a s th e p o s i ti o n a n d y o u r d e c is i o n t o g o b a c k to Zimbabwe? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M y m e e ti n g w i t h Mr Va n R o o y e n o n t h e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r fo ll o w e d b y m y s u s p e n s i o n o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r t h e n fo ll o w e d b y t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e s a m e m a n b e c a u s e h e s e e , C h a ir, w h e n y o u m e e t s u p p li e r s b e c a u s e to m e h e w a s m o r e l ik e a s u p p l ie r i f y o u w a n t . Yo u e x p e c t t o h a v e th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p o f a b u y e r s u p p li e r w h e r e y o u p u t a ll y o u r c a r d s o n th e t a b l e . Yo u d i s c u s s , y o u e n g a g e , y o u s e e w h a t’s p o s s i b le , w h a t’s n o t b u t m y m e e ti n g w i t h 10 M r Va n R o o y e n w a s n ’ t th a t o f a s u p p li e r a n d a b u y e r. I t w a s m o r e o f a n a u t h o r i ty tr y i n g to t e l l y o u w h a t y o u s h o u l d d o a n d o b v i o u s ly g iv e n m y s t a n c e a n d t h e r e s p o n s e s I g a v e a n d n o w t h is v e r y s a m e p e r s o n y o u d is c o v e r is n o w a t t h a t le v e l w h ic h i s w h e r e S A A w o u l d r e p o r t a s w e l l b e c a u s e t h e n w e w e r e r e p o r ti n g t o n a ti o n a l tr e a s u r y. I t j u s t l e f t m e s h a k e n li t e r a l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , o n p a g e 1 9 y o u t h e n g o o n t o d e t a i l y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s th a t w e r e m a d e a g a i n s t y o u in t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n . 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : C h a ir, j u s t i n o r d e r t o a i d th e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e e v id e n c e . T h e a s p e c t s t h a t a r e p ic k e d u p in t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n , D o c to r D a h w a , a r e t h e y t h e s a m e i s s u e s t h a t w e r e r e fe r e n c e d i n t h a t l e t te r t h a t M s K w i n a n a w r o t e o n t h e 9 t h o f O c t o b e r 2015? Page 264 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w e ’ v e d e a l t i n s o m e d e ta il w i th y o u r r e s p o n s e s t o e a c h o f t h o s e a ll e g a t io n s a s t h e y a p p e a r e d o n t h e 9 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 l e t te r. I h a v e a l s o lo o k e d c a r e f u lly a t y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h e c h a r g e s n o w w h i c h a r e i n a s e n s e a r e p li c a o f t h o s e a ll e g a t io n s b a c k i n O c t o b e r. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I have gone through your answers and my sense of your evidence is that you have covered your responses to 10 e a c h o f th o s e c h a r g e s b u t I d o w a n t t o o ff e r y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty i f t h e r e ’s a n a s p e c t o f a n y c h a r g e m a d e a g a i n s t y o u t h a t y o u d o n ’ t f e e l y o u h a v e c o v e r e d y e t in y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d o s o . A n d t o a s s is t y o u , y o u m a y j u s t w a n t t o t a k e a lo o k a t y o u r r e s p o n s e . Yo u w il l fi n d i t u n d e r t a b 2 3 a t p a g e 3 11 . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir. I t h i n k t h e a n o m a l y th a t I w o u ld w a n t t o b r i n g to th e a t t e n t io n o f y o u , C h a ir, is I th in k a r o u n d F e b r u a r y I t h e n g o t a n o t h e r s e t o f c h a r g e s w h ic h w a s m o r e li k e a b r e a k d o w n o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r o n e b u t t h e g i s t a n d t h e t h e m e o f e v e r y t h i n g w a s ju s t o n e a n d t h e s a m e t h i n g . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : S o t h a t w a s F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 . W a s i t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n a t th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 9 , y o u t a lk a b o u t a t p a r a g r a p h 5 6 a d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s t h a t f o l lo w e d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : H o w d i d t h a t u n fo ld ? Page 265 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I th e n g o t to b e i n v it e d a t s o m e p o i n t t o c o m e a n d d e fe n d o r m a k e a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a s t o w h y I s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n s u s p e n d e d . W h y M s N a n c y m a d e t h a t p o s i ti o n is b e c a u s e I w a s q u e r y i n g m y b e in g p la c e d o n s p e c i a l l e a v e a n d I w a s s a y i n g t o h e r I h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g i n t o S A A h u m a n r e s o u r c e p o li c i e s a n d I ’ m s tr u g g li n g t o fi n d a S e c t io n th a t s p e a k s t o s p e c i a l le a v e b e c a u s e I j u s t w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t w a s b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y th e S A A h a n d b o o k w a s p a r t o f m y c o n t r a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t . A n d t h e n s h e d id n ’ t g e t b a c k t o m e a n d I w a s c o p y i n g H R a ll a l o n g a n d s h e t o ld m e n o t t o c o p y H R o n 10 m a t t e r s th a t s h e w a s d e a li n g w it h b e c a u s e … ( i n d is ti n c t ] d o n e t h a t o u t s i d e o f m e a n d s h e d i d n ’ t w a n t m e to c o p y. A n d I in s is t e d h e r th a t I w a s n o t g o i n g t o s t o p c o p y in g H R b e c a u s e w h e n y o u h a n d e d m e t h e o r i g in a l l e t te r t h e r e w a s n o H R a n d I f e l t e x p o s e d i n a w a y b e c a u s e I w a s n ’ t s o s u r e w h e th e r t h e c u s t o d i a n s o f t h e s e p o lic i e s a p p r o v e d o f th e v a r io u s t h i n g s t h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g . A n d t h e n w h e n I c a m e I s a w a n e w s e t o f c h a r g e s a n d I t h i n k o n e o t h e r c o m p o n e n t th a t h a d b e e n i n c lu d e d t h e r e w a s t h a t I h a d a b s c o n d e d fr o m c o m in g t o m a k e a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o n a p a r t ic u l a r d a y. T h e n I s a id , w h a t d o y o u m e a n b e c a u s e I h a d c o m e and when I sent an email explaining myself, GM HR Ms Mushe 20 c o n fir m e d r e c e i p t b u t th e n M s N a n c y w a s tr y i n g to m a k e a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t s h e h a d n o t r e c e i v e d i t . B u t t h e n I t o o k o u t s o m e d o c u m e n ta t io n e m a i l c o p i e s a n d I s h o w e d i t t o h e r a n d t h e n a t th e a c tu a l h e a r i n g t h e y d r o p p e d t h a t c h a r g e . T h e n I w a s a ls o ta lk in g t o m y l a w y e r s n o w tr y i n g t o s e e i f w e c o u ld g e t a n y th i n g . A n o th e r i s s u e , C h a ir, I n e e d t o b r i n g to y o u r a t t e n t io n i s I s a i d Page 266 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a n d o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y t h e r e w a s a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e fr o m H R a n d I d i d s a y t o M s N a n c y w h y h a v e y o u d e c i d e d to ta k e a n e x p e n s iv e r o u t e fo r m y h e a r in g b e c a u s e w i th i n th e S A A h a n d b o o k th e r e ’s a s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d w a y o f h a n d li n g d is c ip li n a r y i s s u e s w h i c h w o u ld i n v o lv e m y s e lf g e t t in g a c o ll e a g u e fr o m w i th i n a n d t h a t w o u ld a p p o in t w h o e v e r t h e C h a ir m a n fr o m w i th i n n o t e v e n t o tr y a n d g o o u t s i d e . S o I d id a s k h e r w h e t h e r S A A w o u l d p a y u p f o r m y c o s ts b e c a u s e I ju s t d i d n ’ t h a v e t h a t k i n d o f m o n e y, C h a ir, a n d w e h a d j u s t b o u g h t a p r o p e r ty i n Pr e t o r i a . S o m y fi n a n c e s w e r e th i n . S o I d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y t h in g t o s p e n d o n l e g a l is s u e s 10 a n d s h e t o l d m e th a t s h e h a d th e p r e r o g a tiv e to d e c i d e t h e r o u te s h e wanted to go. CHAIRPERSON: I m e a n , w h o w a s – w a s t h e r e a l a w y e r fr o m o u t s i d e S A A a t t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g ? I s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h e h e a r in g w a s c o n d u c t e d b y la w y e r s t h a t w a s – s o r r y C h a ir. T h e r e w e r e th r e e la w y e r s f r o m e x t e r n a l a n d M s N a n c y a s t h e f o u r th p e r s o n b u t w e h a d th r e e A d v o c a te s th a t a tt e n d e d m y h e a r i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s c h a ir i n g t h e d is c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t w a s A d v o c a t e C a s s i m . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Cassim? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C a s s i m , I d o n ’ t k n o w h i m . H e ’s a n e x t e r n a l. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y fr o m o u ts i d e t h e S A A ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u s a y t h e r e w e r e t w o o t h e r l a w y e r s fr o m Page 267 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 outside SAA? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Th a t is M r M u k h o li s i , t h e o n e t h a t w a s t h e r e w h e n I w a s h a n d e d t h e le t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w h e n y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d th e r e w a s a M s D a n a r e n w h o w a s a n o t h e r a d v o c a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u s a y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s M r C a s s i m ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : C a s s i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e r o l e – w h a t w e r e t h e r o le s o f t h e o t h e r 10 t w o la w y e r s fr o m o u ts i d e S A A ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I q u e r i e d th a t a s w e ll , C h a ir, d u r i n g t h e d a y o f t h e h e a r i n g b u t t h e y t o ld m e t h a t t h e s e w e r e ju s t t h e r e t o s u p p o r t t h e C h a ir a n d t o tr y a n d m a k e t h e p r o c e s s m u c h e a s i e r. CHAIRPERSON: But you say your understanding was that the d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s c o n ta in e d i n S A A’s h a n d b o o k d i d n o t p r o v id e f o r o u t s i d e l a w y e r s t o b e in v o lv e d i n t h e – in a d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s . Wa s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , o r m a y b e th e y c o u l d h a v e u s e d o th e r o p ti o n s b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly I c o u l d n ’ t g e t H R t o a d v is e m e a s t h e 20 c u s t o d i a n s o f t h e p o l ic y b u t f r o m m y g e n e r a l u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d r e a d i n g t h r o u g h th e S A A h a n d b o o k , y o u k n o w t h i s w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e in t e r n a ll y f ir s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A n d i f t h e r e w e r e a n y is s u e s t h e n i t could be taken out. Page 268 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y y o u d id a s k Ms N a n c y a n d y o u s a i d w h y h a v e y o u t a k e n t h e e x p e n s i v e r o u t e o f b r in g in g i n o u ts i d e l a w y e r s to t h is a d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I d i d , C h a ir, a n d i f w e w e r e t o l o o k a t t h e r u li n g th a t w a s d o n e b y A d v o c a t e C a s s i m , h e r e fe r s t o a l l th o s e b e c a u s e w e r e a l ly h a d … [i n d is t in c t ] ti m e in i ti a l ly w it h m e tr y i n g to q u e s t io n t h e i n t e g r i ty o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d w h y a b l e e d in g a ir l in e w h i c h a lr e a d y d i d n o t h a v e m o n e y c a n a ff o r d t o s p l a s h . I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w m u c h m o n e y w a s s p e n t o n t h o s e t h r e e A d v o c a t e s t o c o m e a n d j u s t t e ll 10 m e t o l e a v e b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t s e e a n y f a ir n e s s a s t o w h e t h e r t h is w a s a f a ir h e a r i n g w h e r e p e o p l e w o u l d t h e n s a y i f y o u fo u n d i n n o c e n t y o u c a n s t a y o r a n y t h i n g . B u t I t h i n k i t w a s a f o r e d o n e c o n c l u s io n a n d e v e n t h e d is m i s s a l , C h a ir, w a s d o n e w h e n I w a s o ff s ic k . I d i d n ’ t e v e n a t t e n d t h a t h e a r in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u c a m e to t h e h e a r in g , h a d y o u b e n o t i fi e d t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u ld b e s o m e b o d y fr o m o u t s i d e o r n o t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t b e e n t o l d w h o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d b e ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : N o . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d i f I c a n ju s t p ic k u p o n t h a t p o in t a b o u t t h e d a y w h e n y o u d i d n ’ t a t t e n d th e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g . W h y w a s t h a t ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I, y o u k n o w I w a s s o s tr e s s e d b e c a u s e o f w h a t I w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h . Yo u c a n i m a g i n e , C h a ir, y o u a r e in a r o o m w h e r e t h e r e ’s th r e e A d v o c a te s . Yo u k n o w w i th o n e , C h a ir, I’ m Page 269 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 m o r e th a n e n o u g h . N o g e t ti n g t h r e e o f t h e m a l l o n y o u r c a s e a n d y o u ’ r e a ls o p e r p l e x e d t h a t h e r e is a n e w b o s s w h o h a s n e v e r w o r k e d w i t h y o u a n d s h e ’s s a y in g s h e ’s a c r e d ib le w it n e s s t o la y c h a r g e s o n m e . I t d i d n ’ t m a k e g o o d s e n s e . S o I w a s s o s tr e s s e d a n d a ls o t h is s p e a k s t o t h e m a n y t h in g s th a t I w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h a n d I ju s t f o u n d la t e r o n d a y o n e I w a s j u s t fe e li n g w e a k i n m y j o in ts a n d I n e e d e d t o g o a n d s e e a d o c to r a n d w h e n I w e n t t o s e e th e d o c t o r, h e s a i d to m e w e n e e d to s ig n y o u o ff . A n d t h e n I w a s s i g n e d o ff a n d I i m m e d i a t e ly c o m m u n i c a t e d t o M s N a n c y w h o a n d c o p i e d H R a n d s h e c a m e b a c k to m e a n d s a i d 10 w e ’l l p r o c e e d w it h o u t y o u a n d th e v e r d ic t w i ll b e m a d e a n d t h e y d i d e x a c tl y t h a t, C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t s te p s d id y o u ta k e a f t e r t h e d e c i s i o n o f t h a t d i s c ip li n a r y Tr i b u n a l t o d is m i s s y o u ? CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t . B e f o r e a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , y o u a tt e n d e d th e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g o n th e fir s t d a y ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r h o w lo n g ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a t w a s th e w h o le d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w h o le d a y ? 20 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: D u r i n g t h e d a y, d u r i n g th a t h e a r i n g w e r e a n y w i t n e s s e s c a l le d b y th e m a n a g e m e n t t o g i v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e charges against you? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a ir, th e y w e r e . I r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a g e n tl e m a n fr o m c a r g o a n d t h e y w e r e w i tn e s s i n g o v e r a Page 270 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p r o c u r e m e n t w h ic h I h a d s e r i o u s p r o b l e m s w i t h , C h a ir, w h i c h I’ m s u r e in t h e n e a r f u t u r e i t w ill b e l o o k e d in t o b e c a u s e t h a t w a s n o t. T h a t w a s the wrong procurement anyway but he came and said whatever he said a n d l e ft . T h e n M s K w i n a n a c a m e a s w e l l a n d a n o th e r l a d y fr o m t h e s tr a t e g y o ffi c e . S h e c a m e c i t in g s o m e c a s e w h e r e I h a d n o t t r i e d t o p u t a s h a r e d s e r v ic e s s t r u c t u r e b e tw e e n S A A a n d M a n g o a n d S A A E x p r e s s w h ic h w a s s o m e t h i n g w a y a b o v e my c a p a b i li ti e s a n y w a y. B u t s h e c a m e a n d tr ie d t o te s t i fy a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s a s w e l l a s M s N a n c y, s h e d i d a l s o t e s ti fy. I a m n o t s u r e w h a t s h e w a s t e s t if y i n g a b o u t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d e a r l ie r o n y o u m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h in g a l o n g th e li n e s th a t t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g w h e r e w h a t w a s b e i n g l o o k e d a t is w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s j u s t i fic a ti o n fo r t h e s u s p e n s i o n . D i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly ? S o m e t i m e e a r l ie r. D i d y o u s a y a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s ? T h a t t h e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n I d o n ’t k n o w if i t w a s a m e e t i n g b u t w h a t w a s b e i n g l o o k e d a t w a s w h e t h e r t h e r e h a d b e e n j u s ti f ic a ti o n f o r t h e suspension. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : I t h in k I w a s a s k e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a s to w h y I s h o u l d n o w n o t b e s u s p e n d e d a n d t h is w a s f o ll o w i n g my q u e r y i n g o f b e i n g p l a c e d o n s p e c i a l le a v e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : And I had sought the relevant p o li c i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : To d o w i t h p l a c i n g s o m e b o d y o n s p e c i a l l e a v e . S o I t h in k a t t h a t p o i n t M s N a n c y th e n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w i th Page 271 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 a d v ic e fr o m w h e r e v e r s h e th e n s a i d , o k a y c a n y o u c o m e b a c k n o w a n d t e ll m e w h y I s h o u l d n o t s u s p e n d y o u . S o it w a s li k e a s te p o f tr y i n g t o r e m o v e m e fr o m t h e s p e c ia l l e a v e t o a s u s p e n s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t h e p e r s o n s w h o t e s ti f ie d a t th e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g th e y te s t i fi e d w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e c h a r g e s o r l e t m e r e p h r a s e . T h e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u w e r e f a c i n g , w e r e t h e y s u b s t a n t ia ll y in l i n e w i th w h a t w a s s a i d w a s w r i t t e n i n t h e s u s p e n s io n l e tt e r ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S o m e c a s e s y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To a la r g e e x te n t ? 10 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , t o a la r g e e x t e n t y e s t h e r e w a s m o r e to d o w i t h is s u e s o f i n s u b o r d i n a t io n a n d f a i li n g t o i m p le m e n t th e 30% set aside. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : A s w e l l a s ly in g a t th e s e r o a d s h o w s a n d … [ i n d is t in c t ] . S o t h a t w a s t h e b u l k o f th o s e is s u e s . T h e n I t h i n k t h e y w e r e a ls o tr y i n g t o fi n d o n e o r t w o c a s e s w h e r e , I d o n ’t k n o w h o w t h e s y s te m w o r k e d . M o s t p r o b a b ly th e r e w e n t a r o u n d a s k i n g p e o p l e to s a y, w h a t d i d D o c t o r D a h w a d o w r o n g f o r y o u o r h e d id t h i s . O k a y b r i n g it o n . W h a t d i d h e d o f o r y o u ? It is li k e t h e o t h e r c a s e , C h a ir, I a m 20 t a lk in g a b o u t . I t ’s a s h a m e i f w e w e r e to d ig i n t o i t a n d I t h e n h a v e e x e c u tiv e s o f a g l o b a l a ir li n e tr y i n g to m a k e a ll e g a t io n s o v e r s u c h m a t t e r s . It ’s , y o u k n o w y o u r h e a r t b l e e d s . I t ’s n o t q u i te a g o o d t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , i f y o u g o to p a g e 2 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Page 272 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Yo u i n d ic a te d t h e t o p o f th a t p a g e t h a t y o u t o o k s te p s t o c h a ll e n g e th e d is m i s s a l . Is th a t c o r r e c t? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Ye s , C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h th a t p r o c e s s ? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : W h e n w e t r i e d t o d o t h a t , w e w e n t t o o n e o f t h e C C M A m e e t i n g w h e r e w e w e r e j u s t g o in g to tr y a n d s e e k l ik e s o m e c o n c i li a ti o n w h e r e y o u tr y a n d f in d e a c h o t h e r a n d th e n s a y o k a y c a n y o u s e tt l e a n d t h a t k i n d o f a t h i n g . B u t w h e n w e g o t t h e r e S A A w a s , 10 t h e y t a b l e d th r e e m o n t h s ’ s a l a r y a n d y o u g o a n d I d i d n ’ t a g r e e to t h a t a n d s o d i d m y l a w y e r s a n d a s s u c h w e l e ft C C M A . A n d t h e n th e n e x t t h i n g w a s I c h a n g e d l a w y e r s . I t h e n g o t a d i ff e r e n t l a w y e r n o w a n d a f t e r p r e s e n t in g m y c a s e s h e th e n s a i d , n o , n o I t h i n k w e n e e d e d t o ta k e a b r o a d e r v i e w to t h is w h o l e t h i n g a n d th e l a w y e r w r o t e to S A A in s t r u c t i n g t h e m t h a t w e w a n te d to s u b p o e n a c e r t a i n p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g M r D e s Va n R o o y e n t o c o m e a n d b e a w i tn e s s a s w e l l a s w e w a n t e d t h e r e p o r t f r o m t h e E Y f o r e n s ic a u d i t . B e c a u s e t h e w a y i t h a p p e n e d , C h a ir, w e h a d ju s t g o t Er n e s t Ya n g t o c o m e a n d d o a fo r e n s ic a u d i t a n d t h e r e w e r e a w h o l e o f is s u e s t o d o w i t h c o n tr a c t s n o t b e i n g s ig n e d a n d w h ic h 20 is s o m e th i n g I h a d r a is e d m u c h , m u c h e a r l ie r le a d i n g t o th e c h a n g e s i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t g o v e r n a n c e w h ic h I h a d d o n e . B u t n o w t h e w a y i t a p p e a r e d i n m e d ia i t w a s n o w m o r e l ik e I h a d b e e n a s k e d to g o o n s u s p e n s i o n b e c a u s e I h a d n o t d o n e p r o p e r c o n tr a c t in g a n d th i n g s l ik e t h a t . S o I t o l d m y l a w y e r to t h a t e ffe c t a n d t h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h t h a t . Th e n t h e y s a i d n o , l e t ’s g e t th e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t. L e t ’s g e t t h e Page 273 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 r e p o r t fr o m E r n e s t a n d Ya n g fo r e n s ic a u d it s . T h e n w e w a n t t o s e e w h i c h c o n tr a c ts w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t . W e r e th e y d u r in g y o u r ti m e ? H o w d i d t h e y c o m e a b o u t b e c a u s e s o m e o f th e m I k n e w a n y w a y ? A n d w e k n e w t h a t o r b e e n le f t o p e n b a c k d a t in g t o th e ti m e I h a d – I w a s n o t w i t h S A A . A n d w h e n w e m a d e t h a t r e q u e s t to S A A t h e n S A A w a s q u ic k to s a y, n o , n o I t h i n k l e t ’s c o m e t o g e t h e r a n d l e t ’s a g r e e f o r a s e t tl e m e n t . A n d th e n m y l a w y e r a d v i s e d m e a s w e ll t o s a y t e l l y o u w h a t I t h i n k w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e th e y l o s e n o t h in g b e c a u s e t h e m o n i e s t h a t t h e y u s i n g t o w o r k o n y o u i s n o t t h e ir m o n e y. T h i s i s g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y. Th e y w il l 10 s p l a s h it a n d d r a g th is c a s e a s lo n g a s t h e y w a n t b u t y o u w il l b e s u ff e r i n g a n d y o u c a n ’ t m o v e o n w i t h y o u r p r o f e s s i o n . S o I w a s a d v is e d t o a g r e e t o s e t tl e a n d I a c c e p t e d t h e a d v i c e a n d p a r t o f th e a g r e e m e n t w a s t h a t I w o u l d s ig n – I w o u l d r e s i g n fr o m S A A a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d g iv e m e a le t t e r o f m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n w h ic h t h e y d i d a n d th e n w a s s e t tl e d a t s ix m o n t h s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : D o c t o r D a h w a , s i n c e t h a t o c c u r r e d , I’ m n o w a t t h e b o tt o m h a lf o f p a g e 2 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t. Yo u d e t a i l t h e r e s o m e o f y o u r p e r s o n a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s s i n c e h a v i n g l e f t S A A a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 y o u t a l k a b o u t y o u r c u r r e n t e m p lo y m e n t p o s i t io n . C a n y o u 20 p l e a s e te ll u s w h a t y o u r p e r s o n a l c i r c u ms t a n c e s w e r e l ik e a ft e r y o u l e f t SAA? M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. A f t e r I l e f t S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s , C h a ir, I o b v i o u s ly w a s tr o u b le d b e c a u s e t h is w a s a n u n t i m e l y e x it a n d lik e I s a i d I h a d j u s t b r o u g h t p r o p e r ty i n P r e t o r ia w h ic h w a s t h e o n ly fa m i ly h o m e w e h a d a n d b y th e w a y I a m a Page 274 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 p e r m a n e n t r e s i d e n t o f S o u t h A fr i c a , C h a i r, a n d s o w e h a d m a d e o u r c o n s c i o u s d e c i s i o n w i t h t h e f a m ily th a t w e n e e d e d t o s e t tl e i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d t o m a k e i t a l l p e r m a n e n t h o m e . B u t t h e n f o l l o w in g a ll t h i s , C h a ir, I t h o u g h t i t w a s g o i n g to h e l p m e t o s ta r t a fr e s h a n d m o v e o n a n d I w o u l d li k e to s a y, C h a ir, fo r t h e l a s t 3 a n d a h a l f y e a r s I h a v e n o t h a d a n y fo r m a l o ff e r s f o r a j o b a n d I d o n ’ t . Yo u k n o w i t b e a t s m e to s a y w h y a m I in t h i s p r e d ic a m e n t s i m p ly b e c a u s e I w a s tr y i n g t o d o m y jo b r ig h t in th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y, in th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e b l a c k a n d w h i te p e o p l e o f S o u t h A fr ic a b u t n o w h e r e I a m . I a m s t u c k 10 p r o f e s s i o n a l a s I a m s i m p ly b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e c e r t a in i n d i v i d u a ls w h o could abuse the power that had been entrusted and put upon them for t h e b e t te r m e n t a n d d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e n a ti o n b u t t o m y d e t r i m e n t . As w e a r e s p e a k i n g , C h a ir, o u r p r o p e r t y in Pr e to r i a it w e n t t o C o u r t h e r e in J o ’ b u r g . T h a t i s o n t h e 2 5 t h w h i c h i s l ik e s o m e t h r e e d a y s a g o b e c a u s e t h e b a n k w a n ts t o r e p o s s e s s i t a n d t h a t is t h e o n l y a s s e t w e h a v e . I c a n s e n d m y c h il d r e n , C h a ir, to s c h o o ls o f m y c h o ic e . As y o u c a n s e e , C h a ir, I ’ m o n e p e r s o n w h o h a s b e e n p a t r io t ic , v e r y c o m m i t t e d t o t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f m y p r o f e s s io n n o t o n l y p e r s o n a ll y b u t a s w e ll a s w a s S o u th A f r i c a n A ir w a y s . I w o u ld te ll y o u , C h a ir, I m e t s i g n i fic a n c e s t r i d e s 20 w h e n I jo in e d S A A n o n e o f m y 2 2 c o m m o d it y m a n a g e r s h a d a q u a li fi c a t io n or a c e r ti f ic a t e in p r o c u r e m e n t. I looked into th e o r g a n i z a t io n s tr u c t u r e . I t h i n k y o u s a w i t . I t u r n e d i t u p s i d e d o w n a n d I h a d to m a k e p r o v i s i o n f o r m y p e o p l e t o a d d r e s s th e v a r i o u s k e y i s s u e s t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d f o r t h e e ffe c tiv e d e l iv e r y o f t h e lo n g - te r m t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y a n d a p a r t fr o m t h a t I s e c o n d e d a ll m y 2 2 m a n a g e r s t o g o fo r Page 275 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 s p e c i a l tr a i n in g w i th a c h a r te r e d i n s ti t u te o f … ( i n d is t in c t) s u p p l y w h ic h w a s a n 1 8 m o n t h s tr a i n in g w h ic h I t h o u g h t w a s m a k i n g s ig n i f ic a n t s tr i d e s . A n d to m y d i s a p p o i n t m e n t , C h a ir, h e r e I a m 4 a n d a h a lf y e a r s la t e r q u a l i fi e d a s I a m e x p e r i e n c e d a s I a m n o t o n l y i n S o u t h A fr i c a b u t e v e n i n te r n a ti o n a ll y. I w o r k e d i n t h e U K f o r t h e g o v e r n m e n t f o r f o u r y e a r s , C h a ir, i n th e s a m e c a p a c i t y a n d I’ v e n e v e r i n m y w h o l e 2 4 / 2 5 y e a r s o f b e in g i n t h i s p r o f e s s io n lo s t a j o b b e c a u s e o f p e o p l e w h o p u r s u e d p e r s o n a l i n t e r e s ts f ir s t b e f o r e t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t g a v e t h e m t h a t o p p o r tu n i t y. S o , C h a i r, i t h u r t s m e i n v e r y s e r i o u s 10 w a y s t h a t w e s t il l ta lk in g a b o u t is s u e s o f t r a n s fo r m a ti o n . I ’ m p a r t o f th e tr a n s fo r m a t i o n , C h a ir. I s h a r e th e s a m e p a i n th a t in t h o s e r e s p e c tiv e b o a r d m e m b e r s t a l k e d to m e a b o u t . I’ m a p r o d u c t o f th a t s tr u g g le . I m a y h a v e a l l t h e c r e d e n ti a l s a n d q u a li f ic a t i o n s , C h a ir, t h a t y o u s a w. Th e y d i d n ’ t c o m e c h e a p . I t’s a f t e r m y o w n p a r e n t s s o ld n u t s ju s t li k e a n y o th e r p a r e n t . T h e y d id t h a t f o r m y w e l f a r e a n d h e r e I a m t o d a y, C h a ir, s t u c k s i m p ly b e c a u s e I w a s tr y i n g t o d o m y j o b r i g h t. I t h in k t h a t ’s w h a t I w o u ld ju s t w a n t to s a y r e g a r d i n g m y p e r s o n a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s , C h a ir. Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : 20 T h a n k y o u . C h a ir, I d o n ’t h a v e a n y f u r th e r q u e s t io n s f o r D o c t o r D a h w a . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u . W e w il l n e e d – I w i ll n e e d t o s e e t h e d e c is i o n t o d is m is s h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t a k e i t th a t fu ll r e a s o n s w e r e g iv e n b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e d i s c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y. I f I h o p e t h a t th e r e i s a Page 276 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 tr a n s c r ip t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O f t h e w h o l e e v i d e n c e g iv e n i n th e d is c i p l in a r y in q u ir y, I w o u l d l ik e t o s e e t h a t a s w e ll . I t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y, i t m a y o r m a y n o t b e n e c e s s a r y t o l o o k m o r e c lo s e l y in t o t h a t e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e it m a y w e l l b e t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , I m a y h a v e t o c o n s i d e r w h e th e r t o m a k e a f in d i n g w h e t h e r h e w a s s u b j e c t e d t o a d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e r e w a s c l e a r ly n o case but it was for other reasons and if I don’t know what evidence was 10 p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e d i s c ip li n a r y i n q u i r y it m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t t o g e t t o t h a t p o in t . S o m a y b e a p p ly y o u r m i n d t o t h a t a n d a t some stage then it can be looked at. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d C h a ir. W e w i ll fo ll o w t h a t u p . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . D o c t o r D a h w a , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d s h a r e w i th th e C o m m i s s i o n t h e e x p e r i e n c e s w h ic h y o u h a d a t S A A a s y o u h a v e o u tli n e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e to m e . I d o w a n t t o h e a r fr o m p e o p le i n c l u d i n g s e n i o r e x e c u tiv e s fr o m p a r a s t a ta ls a n d g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s w h o w e n t t h r o u g h e x p e r ie n c e s t h a t th e y b e l ie v e w e r e c o n n e c t e d w i th p e o p le w h o 20 m a y h a v e s e e n th e m a s s t u m b l in g b l o c k s t o w a r d s w h a t e v e r i t is th e y m a y h a v e w a n te d t o d o w h ic h t h o s e e x e c u ti v e s a n d s e n io r m a n a g e r s m a y h a v e r e g a r d e d a s w r o n g a n d m a y h a v e b e e n r e s is ti n g . A n d I t h i n k p a r t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t y o u w e r e p u r s u e d i n th e w a y i t w a s d o n e b e c a u s e y o u s a y y o u w e r e r e s is ti n g a t t e m p ts to b r e a k t h e l a w a n d a tt e m p ts t o a c t a g a i n s t t h e in t e r e s ts o f t h e e n ti ty, S A A . S o I d o w a n t t o Page 277 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 h e a r fr o m m a n y p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e o r m a y b e l ie v e t h a t is w h a t th e y w e n t t h r o u g h . I a l s o w a n t t o h e a r fr o m t h o s e a g a in s t w h o m th o s e a l le g a ti o n s a r e m a d e t o s a y t h e y w e r e p u r s u i n g c e r t a i n a g e n d a s a n d a b u s e t o t h e ir p o w e r i n o r d e r to g e t p e o p le w h o w o u l d a g r e e t o c a r r y o u t c e r t a i n i n s tr u c ti o n s o r t o s i m p l y d e a l w i t h p e o p le t h a t t h e y b e l ie v e d w e r e s t a n d in g i n t h e ir w a y. A t t h e e n d o f t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , I’ ll h a v e to m a k e fi n d i n g s . I’ ll h e a r e v e r y b o d y a n d t h e n m a k e f in d in g s . B u t i f i n d e e d p e o p l e l ik e y o u w e r e d e a lt w i t h in a c e r t a in m a n n e r b e c a u s e o f s i m p ly s t a n d in g fo r w h a t w a s r i g h t i t w il l b e i m p o r t a n t f o r 10 t h e C o m m i s s io n a t t h e e n d o f i t s w o r k t o s e e w h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o m a k e . B u t o b v i o u s l y w h e t h e r o r n o t i n d e e d p e o p l e l ik e y o u w e r e s u b j e c t e d t o t h e k in d o f tr e a t m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e to l d m e a b o u t b e c a u s e o f t h a t is s o m e t h in g t h a t I c a n o n l y d e c i d e o n c e I h a v e h e a r d a l l t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m e v e r y b o d y in c l u d i n g t h o s e a g a in s t w h o m y o u h a v e g iv e n evidence. M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g i v e e v i d e n c e a n d w h a t y o u e x p e r i e n c e d . I f it b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y t o a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k a g a i n y o u w il l b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d I’ m s u r e y o u 20 w i ll c o m e b a c k i f y o u a r e a s k e d . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : S u r e , th a n k y o u s o m u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u a r e e x c u s e d . T h a n k y o u . M R M A S I M B A P H I L L I P D A H WA : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I t h a s C h a ir. Page 278 of 279 28 JUNE 2019 – DAY 123 CHAIRPERSON: On Monday we start at 10. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W i ll t h e n a d j o u r n t o d a y a n d t h e n o n M o n d a y w e start at 10. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 J U LY 2 0 1 9 Page 279 of 279