C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 2 8 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 8 3 20 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 8 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe, good morning e v e r y b o d y. A D V G C A B A S H E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . G o o d m o r n i n g M r T h a b e th e . M R T H A B E T H E : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V G C A B A S H E : W e a r e C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . I t h in k b e c a u s e o f t h e l a p s e o f t i m e le t u s d o the oath again. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R T H A B E T H E : M b a n a P e t e r T h a b e th e . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR THABETHE: No. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r 20 r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R T H A B E T H E : S o h e lp m e G o d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s w e m a y p r o c e e d th e n . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r m a n . C h a ir m a n t h e i n te n ti o n is t o c o m p le t e th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr T h a b e t h e t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 2 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: T h e r e a r e a f e w a d d i ti o n s t o t h e b u n d le s th a t w e w o u ld lik e to b r in g to y o u r a tt e n ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E: T h e m o s t s i g n i f ic a n t i s t h e fi li n g o f a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t b y M r Th a b e t h e o n Fr i d a y. W e r e c e i v e d it o n F r i d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r y o u r c o n v e n ie n c e C h a ir m a n w e w il l p u t i t in y o u r E x h i b i t H H [ b ] i n d u e c o u r s e b u t w e th o u g h t w e s h o u l d j u s t k e e p i t a s a separate bundle. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r p u r p o s e s o f th e h e a r i n g t h is m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I f I m ig h t p l e a s e h a n d i t u p ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n t h e r e i s a s li g h t d i ff ic u l ty w i th th a t a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e t h e C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a th s h a s n o t in i ti a l le d e v e r y p a g e b u t f o r c u r r e n t p u r p o s e s I t h i n k w e c a n a c c e p t th a t i t is th e s t a te m e n t o f M r T h a b e t h e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V G C A B A S H E: H e w ill b e te s t i fy i n g to th e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t s t a te m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d th a t b y t h e e n d o f t h e d a y t h a t w il l b e e v i d e n c e t h a t i s b e fo r e y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. Page 3 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s t h e m o s t p r a c t ic a l w a y w i th w h ic h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e . A D V G C A B A S H E : W e c a n d e a l w it h t h e m a tt e r. T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. ADV GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n th e o th e r m a tt e r is – c o n c e r n s a ffi d a v i ts t h a t o u r in v e s ti g a t o r s w e r e a b l e to fi n d in t h e N PA b u n d le o f d o c u m e n ts . Th e s e r e l a t e t o t h e d a ir y c o m p a n ie s t h a t Mr T h a b e th e s a y s t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t s p o k e to a t s o m e p o in t t o t r y a n d b r in g t h e m o n b o a r d o n th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . T h o s e C h a ir m a n h a v e b e e n fi le d i n 10 R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e F. W e w i ll r e fe r t o th e m i n d u e c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n w h e n I a p p e a r e d b e f o r e y o u l a s t t i m e t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t t h a t I r e f e r r e d to a s t h e A G ’s R e p o r t . M r T h a b e t h e q u e r ie d t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e w e o n ly h a d t h r e e p a g e s o f t h a t d o c u m e n t i n s t e a d o f t h e f u ll r e p o r t . T h e f u ll r e p o r t C h a ir m a n is in f a c t t h e A n n u a l R e p o r t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t f o r th e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 . S o th o s e p a g e s a r e c o r r e c t . S o t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w e le d were from pages that were extracted from that document. 20 If the C h a ir m a n r e c a ll s I s a id I h a d l e f t i t o n m y d e s k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: T h a t i s t h e fu ll r e p o r t . W e h a v e n o t fi le d i t C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e w e h a v e t h e p a g e s t h a t w e in t e n d e d t o r e fe r t o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d w i t h y o u r le a v e m i g h t w e t h e n ju s t le a v e . Page 4 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th o s e p a g e s i n w i t h o u t t h e r e s t o f t h e r e p o r t? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o th a t is fi n e . I t a k e i t t h a t t h e r e w il l b e n o p r o b le m f r o m M r T h a b e th e ’s s i d e b e c a u s e i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u s a y is i n t h e i r A n n u a l R e p o r t – th e D e p a r t m e n t’s A n n u a l R e p o r t ? A D V G C A B A S H E : I n d e e d s o C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : I t w a s f il e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d i f t h e r e is a – i f t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m t h e y w il l a r ti c u la t e i t . O k a y a lr ig h t . ADV GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e th e i t is j u s t to – b e c a u s e I h a v e – u n d e r to o k t o c o m e b a c k to c la r i fy w h e r e t h o s e p a g e s c a m e fr o m a n d th e y a r e p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t – A n n u a l R e p o r t t h a t y o u h a d fi le d i n 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 . T h a t is j u s t to s a tis f y y o u t h a t i t is a n a u t h e n ti c r e p o r t t h a t in f a c t d i d n o t c o m e fr o m A G b u t w a s i n fa c t f il e d b y y o u r s e l f in t h e D e p a r t m e n t . A r e y o u h a p p y w i th t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y I a m fi n e . ADV GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n th e – t h e o t h e r m a t t e r th a t I h a d u n d e r ta k e n t o c o m e b a c k t o y o u o n is t h e s ta t u s o f th e 20 M o h u m a M o b u n g P T Y L i m i te d C o m p a n y. I h a v e a s k e d th a t th e y d r a w a r e p o r t – t h e C I P C R e p o r t o n t h a t C h a i r m a n . If it is c o n v e n i e n t t o y o u we can hand that up – a copy of that? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e . A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n t h o s e a r e a ll t h e p r e l i m i n a r y m a t t e r s t h a t I – I w a n t e d t o s t a r t w i th . Page 5 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: D o e s th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t o f M r Th a b e t h e r e l a t e t o a n is s u e t h a t h e w a s to d e a l w i t h in te r m s o f th e a r r a n g e m e n ts made last time? A D V G C A B A S H E : In d e e d s o C h a ir m a n . I n fa c t w h e n h e h a d th e o th e r a tt o r n e y s o f r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : R e p r e s e n ti n g h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : H e u n d e r to o k t o f u r n i s h u s w i th a s u p p le m e n t a r y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : A ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d h is c u r r e n t a t t o r n e y s h a v e n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : E n s u r e d t h a t h e h a s d o n e ju s t t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n i f w e m i g h t g o b a c k t o t h o s e m o n t h ly r e p o r t s t h a t E s ti n a h a d p r e s e n t e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h ic h r e p o r ts M r T h a b e th e a s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v id e n c e y o u r e li e d o n i n e n s u r i n g 20 t h a t p a y m e n ts w e r e m a d e . I w i ll a s k y o u t o p l e a s e tu r n to R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D f o r D o n a l d a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o g o t o p a g e 1 4 0 3 . Yo u h a v e the report before you? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t . A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a n k y o u . W e e s ta b li s h e d w h e n y o u w e r e h e r e o n t h e 4 O c to b e r M r T h a b e t h e th a t in t e r m s o f th is r e p o r t w h a t is w r it t e n Page 6 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 o n p a g e 1 4 0 2 . C h a ir m a n d o y o u h a v e y o u r r e p o r t y e t ? N o t y e t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h e is s t il l tr y i n g t o fi n d i t . Is t h a t a t 1 4 0 2 ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t is t h e O c t o b e r m o n th ly r e p o r t t h a t w a s f il e d b y E s ti n a i n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t . Can I proceed Chairman? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s y o u m a y. A D V G C A B A S H E: N o w y o u w i ll s e e fr o m p a g e 1 4 0 2 i t is s o m e th i n g w e 10 d is c u s s e d l a s t ti m e t h a t E s t i n a c l a i m s t o h a v e p a i d R 2 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i n th e m o n th o f S e p te m b e r. the p r o je c t of T h a t i s a c a p i t a l i n je c t io n f r o m t h e ms e l v e s in t o R 2 5 0 0 0 0 .0 0 and an a d d it i o n a l R3.75 m il li o n – R 3 7 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t a g a in th e y s a id w a s a c a p it a l c o n tr i b u ti o n t o t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t w h i le i t w a s w a i t in g f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t to r e l e a s e f u n d s . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t e v id e n c e t h a t w e d is c u s s e d la s t t i m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d t h a t is o f c o u r s e c o n s o n a n t w it h w h a t i s w r i t te n on page 102? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 ADV GCABASHE: I f w e t h e n g o to t h e v e r y n e x t p a g e p l e a s e M r T h a b e th e w h ic h is h e a d e d C a s h Fl o w P o s i ti o n o f E s ti n a P T Y L i m i t e d fr o m J u ly 2 0 1 2 w e a g a in d is c u s s s o m e o f t h e i t e m s h e r e . I am just r e m i n d in g y o u r e a ll y fo r – t o g i v e c o n t e x t . Ar e y o u t h e r e ? P a g e 1 4 0 3 Mr Thabethe? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. Page 7 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u S ir. W e – w e p o i n te d o u t th a t t h a t o p e n i n g b a l a n c e d i d n o t h a v e a fi g u r e a n d t h e n i n s p e c u la t in g w e a s s u m e d th a t i t is b e c a u s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e y o u g a v e . T h e y t o ld y o u t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o c o - m ix t h e ir m o n e y w i t h t h a t o f – w i t h t h a t o f t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t a n d t h a t is w h y y o u t o o a s s u m e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a – n o t h i n g i n t h a t p a r tic u la r c o l u m n . H a v e I r e c a ll e d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W e t h e n lo o k e d a t th e R 3 0 m i ll io n w h i c h is t h e v e r y 10 n e x t f ig u r e a n d w e a g r e e d th a t t h a t w a s t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s p a id in J u ly 2012? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a n k y o u S ir. W e t h e n l o o k e d a t th e R 2 9 m il li o n t h a t w a s r e s e r v e d f o r p a r lo u r e q u ip m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Good. O f t h is 2 9 y o u t h e n g a v e e v i d e n c e s a y in g y o u h a d in i ti a l ly a s s u m e d t h a t t h i s m o n e y w o u l d b e u s e d fo r t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w h e r e a s Es t in a h a d r e s e r v e d i t f o r a d i ffe r e n t p u r p o s e ? MR THABETHE: That … 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : W e d is c u s s e d th a t . Th a t is o n t h e tr a n – M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: I a m j u s t r e m in d in g y o u s o th a t y o u g e t b a c k t o w h e r e w e w e r e l a s t ti m e . W h a t w e l e f t y o u w i t h t o t h in k a b o u t S ir w a s t h a t a t th e ti m e y o u – t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n o t h e r w o r d s p a id t h e R 3 0 m il li o n t h e f e a s ib il i ty s tu d y h a d n o t b e e n c o m p l e t e d a n d t h is w a s a n Page 8 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a d v a n c e p a y m e n t i n y o u r v i e w t o e n a b l e th a t fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y t o b e conducted? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t w e a g r e e d l a s t ti m e t h a t y o u s i g n e d o ff o n t h e c o m p le t io n o f t h e P h a s e 1 o b l i g a t io n s o n t h e 1 8 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . N o w t h e s e o b l i g a t io n s w e a ls o k n o w in c l u d e d t h e c o m p l e ti o n o f a fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y. S o w h a t y o u h a v e a s k e d u s t o a c c e p t i s th a t th e R 3 0 m il li o n w a s p a i d a s a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t 10 n o t b e c a u s e th e f e a s i b i li t y s t u d y h a d b e e n c o m p le t e d . C o r r e c t m e if I h a v e m i s u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R T H A B E T H E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t – t h e i n d i c a t io n w a s th a t i t w a s a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t f o r t h e m t o b e a b le t o p r o c e e d . ADV GCABASHE: W e – w e t h e n a ls o – I a m g o i n g to c o m e b a c k t o s o m e o f th e s e is s u e s M r Th a b e t h e I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o s u m m a r is e t h e m and make sure we are on the same page. W e th e n d e a l t w i th t h e r e s e r v a ti o n i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 o f t h e a d d i ti o n a l R 1 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . A n d t h e e s s e n t ia l q u e s ti o n s w e w e r e a s k in g M r Th a b e t h e a t 20 t h e ti m e w a s d id y o u in t e r r o g a t e t h e s e a c c o u n ts th a t w e r e p r e s e n te d t o y o u a n d u n d e r s ta n d w h y t h e s e m o n i e s w e r e b e in g r e s e r v e d a n d w h y y o u w e r e b e in g a s k e d t o p a y m o r e m o n e y ? I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o comment on that? M R T H A B E T H E : J a I a m tr y i n g t o c a tc h t h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Well … Page 9 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : L e t m e s ta r t . CHAIRPERSON: Th e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r a t t h e t i m e y o u w e r e p r e s e n t e d w i th t h e s e – y o u r r e p o r t s fr o m E s ti n a y o u in t e r r o g a t e d t h e v a r io u s i te m s s o t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th o s e a m o u n ts w e r e b e i n g u s e d fo r o r w e r e b e i n g p r e s e r v e d f o r. T h a t is w h a t is b e i n g asked? Or did you just accept the reports as they were without in t e r r o g a ti n g th e m s o t h a t i f y o u i n te r r o g a te d th e m o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e p ic k e d u p c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t w o u l d n o t – th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e f o u n d s tr a n g e fr o m th e p o i n t o f v ie w o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e – I d i d c h e c k th e fi g u r e s a s t h e y c o m e – a s I h a v e r a i s e d w i th th e – w i t h m y e v i d e n c e C h a i r in th e la s t t h a t I h a d p ic k e d t h a t t h e – t h e r e w a s t h e a m o u n t o f R 2 9 m i l li o n t h a t w a s r e s e r v e d f o r e q u i p m e n t . B e c a u s e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t it w a s r e s e r v e d f o r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y a n d t h o s e is s u e s t h a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n o n p a p e r. B u t th e – t h e e x p l a n a t io n t h a t I h a d r e c e i v e d i n t h a t e x p l a n a t io n C h a i r w a s – w a s s a ti s fa c t o r y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n is i m p o r t a n t M r T h a b e th e . CHAIRPERSON: One second. Is e v e r y b o d y a u d i b l e e n o u g h a t t h e b a c k ? Is e v e r y b o d y h e a r – c a n e v e r y b o d y h e a r ? T h e y – o k a y it l o o k s 20 lik e th e r e a r e n o c o n c e r n s . O k a y a l r i g h t . L e t u s c o n t i n u e . ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman. Mr Thabethe the reason we a r e q u e r y i n g s o m e o f t h e s e f i g u r e s to d a y is b e c a u s e h a d M r T h e r o n g iv i n g e v i d e n c e h e r e o n t h e 8 O c to b e r a n d h e t o l d t h e C h a i r m a n t h a t a lo c a l c o m p a n y Av a l Laval [D e L a v a l ] that supplies d a ir y parlour e q u ip m e n t h a d s u p p li e d t h e d a ir y p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t t h a t th e p r o je c t Page 10 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 u s e d . I f I r e c a ll w e ll t h e r e w e r e t w o – y o u k n o w t h e s e m i lk in g m a c h in e s t h a t w e r e s u p p li e d . A 6 . 1 a n d a 1 0 .1 . T h e t o t a l a m o u n t t h a t w a s s p e n t w a s R 6 m il li o n o n th a t p u r c h a s e . D id y o u k n o w a b o u t t h a t p a r tic u la r purchase? MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir I h a v e – I h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e – th e e v i d e n c e o f M r Th e r o n in te s ti fy in g i n t e r m s o f w h a t w e r e th e c o s t o f t h is e q u i p m e n t . T h e o n ly is s u e h e r e h e h a d m e n t i o n e d w a s o n l y t h e parlour equipment. ADV GCABASHE: Correct. 10 M R TH A B E T H E : H e d id n o t – h e n o t g iv e f u r th e r b e c a u s e t h a t is a ll t h a t h e s u p p l ie d . ADV GCABASHE: Correct. M R T H A B E T H E : I a m n o t s u r e i f h e h a s b e e n r e f e r r in g to a l l in c l u s iv e that was done. Because he – ADV GCABASHE: He… M R T H A B E T H E: M y a p o lo g y C h a ir. He only mentioned what he s u p p li e d i n t e r m s o f p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : A n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t i t w a s m o r e t h a n w h a t 20 h e h a d s u p p l ie d . A D V G C A B A S H E : R i g h t w h a t m o r e d o y o u b e l i e v e h a d t o b e s u p p li e d u n d e r th e i t e m P a r l o u r E q u ip m e n t ? M R TH A B E T H E : C h a ir I w o u ld – I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o g o in t o t h e d e t a i ls b e c a u s e t h a t k in d o f w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e b y o ff ic i a ls o n t h e g r o u n d . To g iv e t h e d e ta il s o f w h a t is – b e c a u s e i f I w o u ld s p e c u l a t e i n Page 11 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 d o i n g t h a t t h e n I w o u l d n o t b e c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV GCABASHE: T h i s is o u r d i ffi c u l ty a s a l e g a l t e a m w i th y o u r e v i d e n c e M r Th a b e t h e . W e c o m e b a c k t o y o u b e i n g t h e A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r. W e c o m e b a c k t o y o u b e i n g t h e p e r s o n w h o a u th o r is e s a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y t h e p a y m e n t o f g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y t o a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r. W e c o m e b a c k t o y o u r d u ty u n d e r th e P F M A S e c t io n 3 8 to e n s u r e t h a t y o u m o n i t o r a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e t h i s m o n e y is b e i n g d e p l o y e d . Yo u a r e w it h m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : I – I h e a r y o u C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . S o w h e n y o u s ig n o ff o n a – o r w h e n y o u lo o k a t a m o n th ly r e p o r t w h e n y o u d is c u s s it w i t h y o u r C F O y o u m u s t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e m o n e y y o u h a v e d e p lo y e d is d o in g f o r y o u r D e p a r t m e n t. Ar e w e in a g r e e m e n t o n t h a t p o i n t ? M R T H A B E T H E : I – I a g r e e C h a ir. C h a ir to a d d o n t h a t w h e r e I s a y I a g r e e is t h a t w h e n t h e d o c u m e n t c o m e s t o m e fr o m t h e o ffi c i a l s a y i n g w e a r e h a p p y o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t h u s fa r w e th e r e f o r e m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t y o u p r o c e e d w i t h t h e p a y m e n t . want to use the correct word. It may not be – I I t m a y n o t b e f e a s ib l e f o r m e t o g o t o e a c h a n d e v e r y d o c u m e n t a n d s a y I w a n t t o g o a n d c h e c k m y s e l f. S o I 20 t a k e i t t h a t w h e n t h e d o c u m e n t is s a y i n g t o m e w e a r e h a p p y o n th e g r o u n d o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d th e r e fo r e I w ill t h e n a g r e e w i t h t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: I w a s g o i n g t o a s k a q u e s ti o n b u t I a m g iv i n g y o u a chance to A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t w is h t o a s k a q u e s t io n ? Page 12 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : I w o u l d – I w o u l d li k e t o p u r s u e t h i s p o i n t C h a ir m a n . M r Th a b e t h e i f y o u h a d a t t h e v e r y l e a s t fir m i n fo r m a t i o n o n w h a t t h e p e o p l e o n t h e g r o u n d m i g h t h a v e r e p o r te d t o I m i g h t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t fr o m y o u r s tr a te g i c p o s i ti o n y o u w o u l d l o o k a t a m o n th ly – i n f a c t t h is is a q u a r te r ly r e p o r t a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u h a d a b a la n c e a s o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 o f R 2 4 m il li o n t h a t h a d b e e n r e s e r v e d fo r parlour equipment. Am I right? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A l l – a t t h e s a m e ti m e y o u w o u l d lo o k a t i t e ms u n d e r S e p te m b e r a n d O c t o b e r a n d t h e r e p o r t i ts e l f a n d tr y to u n d e r s t a n d w h y E s ti n a w a s s a y i n g t h e y w e r e p u t ti n g i n a c a s h i n je c t i o n o f R 2 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 in S e p t e m b e r a n d th e n s e e k t o u n d e r s ta n d a g a i n w h y E s ti n a w a s s a y i n g t h e y w e r e p u tt i n g i n a c a s h in je c ti o n o f R 3 .7 m i ll i o n – 7 5 m il li o n – R 3 7 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i n O c to b e r. Yo u w o u l d w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y ? B e c a u s e th e i r o b l ig a ti o n w a s in r e s p e c t o f t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye t y o u a r e t e ll i n g t h is c o m m is s i o n t h a t y o u d id n o t 20 ask these questions. MR THABETHE: C h a ir I w a s – I t h in k t h is – t h is q u e s ti o n w a s a ls o d is c u s s e d b e f o r e w h e r e m y in d i c a t io n h a s b e e n t h a t C h a ir w il l r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e c o m m i t m e n t th a t w e h a d m a d e w a s a b o u t 11 4 p e r a n n u m o f w h ic h w o r k h a d t o b e d o n e . W e w e r e n o t a b le t o – to m a k e t h a t m o n e y a v a il a b l e a n d w e h a d m a d e a c o m m i t m e n t t h a t t h e w o r k Page 13 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s h o u l d p r o c e e d o n t h e g r o u n d . It w a s o n th a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h e n they proceeded with the work w it h an u n d e r s t a n d in g that the D e p a r t m e n t w ill t h e n l a te r m a k e t h a t m o n e y a v a i la b l e . S o t h a t th a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir t h a t t h e y w o u l d p r o c e e d w i t h t h e w o r k a n d w h e n w e h a v e t h e m o n e y a v a i la b le w e w i ll t h e n b e a b le to p a y t h a t m o n e y. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e M r T h a b e th e I a m a c t u a ll y s t r e tc h in g t h e d is c u s s io n w e h a d o n t h e 4 O c t o b e r b e y o n d th e p o in t w h e r e w e stopped. 10 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : B e c a u s e if y o u g o t o p a g e – s a m e f il e – p a g e 1 3 7 2 . S a m e fi l e 1 3 7 2 . Ar e y o u t h e r e ? M R T H A B E T H E : I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u fi n d th e r e a l e tt e r s ig n e d b y M r Va s r a m t o t h e e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l d e p a r t m e n t d a t e d t h e 2 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 . A n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e s c h e d u l e – t h e m o n ie s t h a t a r e s e t o u t h e r e t h e y e s s e n t i a ll y a s k in g i f th e y c a n p a y th is m o n e y t o G a t e w a y P T Y L i m i t e d w h ic h is a c o m p a n y th a t i s r e g i s te r e d i n D u b a i . T h e a m o u n t h e r e – t h e fi r s t a m o u n t i s t h e a m o u n t I w o u l d li k e to d e a l w i t h . I t is f o r U S $ 5 m il li o n . 20 A lr ig h t y o u a r e w i th m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: R ig h t i f y o u t h e n t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e t h e v e r y n e x t le t t e r i s a c o n ti n u a t i o n o f j u s t S t a n d a r d B a n k w r it i n g t o th e d i r e c t o r s a g a in d e a l in g w i th th e e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l e le m e n t . J u s t a r e g u l a t i o n o f h o w t h is m o n e y w o u l d b e p a i d . Ye s ? I t i s j u s t t h e f o r m a l i ty r e a lly a ll Page 14 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 b a n k s h a v e to c h e c k o n w h y m o n i e s a r e g o i n g o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y. A lr ig h t . I t h e n w a n t y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 1 3 7 5 w h ic h i s t h e i n v o ic e o f G a te w a y L i m i t e d s e n t t o E s ti n a P T Y L i m i t e d . A n d i t w o u l d a p p e a r to b e t h a t th is m o n e y is m o n e y t h a t w a s – t h a t t h e y a r e a s k in g f o r th e t o t a l a t t h e b o t t o m y o u c a n s e e i f U S $ 5 m il li o n . T h a t a m o u n t a p p e a r s t o b e f o r t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y r e p o r ts . Fir s t i te m b e in g th e d r a w i n g u p a n d p r e s e n ta t io n o f c o m p r e h e n s iv e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y a n d t h e r e is a n a m o u n t o f 2 . 6 ju s t o v e r $ 2 . 6 m il li o n f o r th a t fir s t e x e r c is e . Yo u h a v e s e e n t h a t ? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : I s e e it C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Ja. r e p o r t in g and te m p l a te Th e n e x t i t e m d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e p r o j e c t systems to ensure c o m p li a n c e by th e c o n tr a c to r s . Ye s ? U S $ 8 6 9 0 0 0 . 0 0 . T h e n e x t a m o u n t d e v e lo p a n d i m p l e m e n t s y s te m s t o m a n a g e t h e e n t ir e p r o j e c t c y c l e $ 8 6 9 0 0 0 .0 0 . T h e l a s t o n e d i s b u r s e m e n ts t h a t c a m e i n a t $ 6 5 2 0 0 0 .0 0 . A ll o f t h e s e i n U S d o ll a r s I ta k e . I t a c t u a lly d o e s s a y u n i t p r i c e U S d o ll a r s a t th e t o p ju s t s o t h a t t h e r e is n o a r g u m e n t w h e t h e r th e s e a r e U S d o ll a r s o r s o m e o t h e r – o t h e r d e n o m in a ti o n . A r e y o u s a tis f ie d w i t h t h a t? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : I s e e C h a ir m a n y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E: I w a n t y o u t o t h e n g o o v e r t h e p a g e a n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e – t h is – s o th is is S t a n d a r d B a n k t r a n s fe r r i n g t h e m o n e y. I f y o u lo o k a t t h e te l e g r a p h ic tr a n s fe r y o u s e e t h a t th e U S D 2 0 0 0 U S d o l l a r s c a m e t o 1 9 – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n 2 m il li o n U S D o ll a r s c a m e t o R19 780 000.00 South African rands. Yo u s e e t h a t n u m b e r – y o u s e e Page 15 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h e f ig u r e ? I f y o u c o m e d o w n te le g r a p h ic tr a n s fe r. Yo u s e e th e w o r d s t e l e g r a p h ic tr a n s f e r i n b o l d – i n c a p i ta l l e tt e r s . MR THABETHE: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E: Te le g r a p h ic t r a n s f e r. I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e y o u a r e w it h m e M r … M R T H A B E T H E : I s e e it . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e t h e m ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: 10 A n d t h e n b e l o w th a t y o u s e e R 1 9 7 8 0 0 0 0 S A R b e i n g S o u th A fr ic a n R a n d s . Yo u s e e th a t n u m b e r ? MR THABETHE: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : B e lo w t h a t y o u s e e t h a t w h a t w a s s o l d w a s 2 m il li o n U S D o l l a r s . Yo u a r e w i t h m e ? What was bought in Rands it came to t h a t R 1 9 7 8 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . O k a y. Th a t is t h e f i r s t a m o u n t . A c c o u n t in g f o r – r e m e m b e r i t i s 5 m ill i o n U S D o ll a r s t h a t y o u w e r e b e i n g c h a r g e d f o r a f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . W e w il l c o m e b a c k t o – to h o w y o u c a m e t o p a y t h a t m u c h m o n e y fo r th a t f e a s i b il it y s t u d y b u t t h a t is n o t w h e r e I 20 a m r ig h t n o w. I j u s t w a n t t o b e s u r e t h a t y o u a r e l o o k in g a t t h e n u m b e r s t h a t w e r e p a i d th a t w e r e a s k e d – in v o ic e d a n d p a i d . B e c a u s e t h is is y o u r m o n e y – t h e D e p a r t m e n t ’s m o n e y a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y t h a t is p a y i n g f o r t h is . Is t h e p r o p o s i ti o n I w il l b e p u tt i n g to y o u . Th e v e r y n e x t p a g e M r T h a b e th e d e a ls w i t h t h e – w i t h th e 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 U S D o ll a r s t h a t m a k e s u p t h e 5 in t o ta l 3 p l u s 2 . The very next page you see Page 16 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 P r i n c ip le A m o u n t U S D 3 m il li o n . I a m s o s o r r y to h a v e c o n f u s e d y o u . T h e 3 m il li o n U S D o ll a r s you are with me? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : P r i n c i p l e A m o u n t 3 m il li o n ? MR THABETHE: On page – you are on page what? ADV GCABASHE: 1377. M R T H A B E T H E : J a I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : 3 m il li o n U S D o ll a r s . 10 M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: In South A fr ic a n Rand value that was 3 0 9 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . Yo u a r e w i th m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : I a m w i th y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Right. S o t h e s e a m o u n t s w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d t o G a te w a y L i m it e d a n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e t o p o f t h a t s h e e t t h is is E s ti n a P T Y L i m i t e d t h a t is p a y i n g t h e s e m o n ie s . MR THABETHE: O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e w i th m e ? G o o d . I t h e n w a n t y o u t o s k i p a p a g e . I a m j u s t p u t ti n g a n u m b e r o f f a c ts t o g e th e r a n d t h e n I w i ll a s k 20 y o u t h e p r i n c i p le q u e s t i o n M r T h a b e th e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E: I f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 1 3 7 9 i t a g a in r e l a te s t o w o r k d o n e a s p a r t o f th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y th o u g h t h e d a t e h e r e is 2 3 M a r c h 2013. F e a s i b i li ty s t u d y G a t e w a y L i m it e d is t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r. Yo u a r e w it h m e ? Page 17 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : I a m w i th y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. O v e r t h e p a g e a r e a c tu a lly c o n s u l t a n t f e e s . T h e y a r e h o u r ly f e e s t h a t t h e y c h a r g e a t p a g e 1 3 7 9 . 1 . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . Th e n o n p a g e 1 3 7 9 . 2 w e h a v e th e n a m e s o f v a r io u s c o n s u lt a n ts w h o I b e li e v e w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p e o p l e – t h e s e a r e a ll s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts t o e n a b l e t h a t 5 m i ll io n t o b e p a id f o r th a t f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y th a t w a s c o m p l e te d b y G a t e w a y L i m i te d . A n d h e r e y o u h a v e g o t v a r i o u s n a m e s fr o m 1 to 1 0 . 10 D r. Si n g h , D r. R a m , D r. M a l ik , D r. Si n g h , D r S h r iv a s t a v a , D r. Ya d a v, M r J a a , D r. D a s , D r – M s D a b a s , M r Ti w a r i . I w a n t t o p a u s e j u s t f o r a m i n u te b e f o r e I g o to th e s e c o n d e l e m e n t a n d a s k y o u t h i s q u e s ti o n . Do you know any of these consultants who you paid this money to? MR THABETHE: C h a ir l e t m e g o b a c k a n d - a n d s a y th is w a s E s ti n a w h o w e r e d o in g t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s . T h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d p a i d m o n e y to E s ti n a fo r w o r k t o b e d o n e . H o w - h o w th e y g o t t h e w o r k d o n e w e d id n o t g o i n t o th o s e d e ta il s . O u r e x p e c ta t io n w a s th a t t h e w o r k m u s t b e d o n e . S o t h i s d o c u m e n t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e ir d o c u m e n t in g e t ti n g - to g e t t in g o u r w o r k d o n e . F o r u s w a s t o r e c e iv e th e d o c u m e n t t o o u r s a t is f a c ti o n a n d 20 s a y t h is is w h a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d y o u t o p a y. H a s it b e e n d o n e ? If y e s it h a s b e e n d o n e t h e n - t h e n w e w i ll s ig n i t o ff . S o w e d id n o t g o in t o t h e d e ta il s o f w h o w a s d o i n g w h a t , w h o w a s p a i d h o w m u c h o f t h a t m o n e y. S o t h e s e a r e t h e d e ta il s o f t h e i r o w n r e c o r d k e e p in g in - in c a s e w e w e r e t o c o m e to t h e m a n d s a y g iv e u s t h e d e ta il s . Page 18 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 T h e y w o u l d b e a b le to p r o v i d e u s b u t t h e e x p l a n a ti o n t h a t w a s g i v e n t o u s a n d t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s g iv e n to u s . W e w e r e v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e t o b e a b l e t o s a y th e w o r k t h a t w e h a v e r e q u e s t e d h a s been done. S o t h e r e f o r e C h a ir I w o u l d n o t b e a b le to e x p la i n t h e d e t a i ls o f - o f w h a t is in t h i s d o c u m e n t. T h a t w i ll b e m y d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n t h i s is p r e c i s e l y t h e p o in t w e m a k e . Yo u p u t G o v e r n m e n t f u n d s a t r is k . were being deployed. 10 Yo u d i d n o t m o n i t o r h o w t h o s e f u n d s Yo u d i d n o t tr y t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y y o u w e r e b e i n g c h a r g e d U S $ 5 m i ll i o n f o r w h a t t u r n e d o u t t o b e a f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y t h a t e v e n D A F F - M s M t s h iz a w a s h e r e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e - f o u n d t o b e in a d e q u a t e . S o t h is is w h y I ti e t h a t f a c t i n w i t h y o u r m o n i to r i n g o f y o u r 3 0 m il li o n t h a t is r e fl e c t e d o n th e m o n t h ly r e p o r t . MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a i r - C h a ir I - I d o n o t a g r e e . The - the d e p a r t m e n t r e c e iv e d a d o c u m e n t a n d a c c e p te d t h e d o c u m e n t to b e w h a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d f o r. Fo r w h a t w e h a v e r e q u e s t e d f o r b e c a u s e w e h a d a g r e e d th o s e t h i n g s w e r e p u t i n w r i ti n g th a t w e h a d a g r e e d th a t E s ti n a w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o w i th th e m o n e y th a t w a s a ll o c a te d a n d t h o s e th i n g s 20 t h a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n w e r e d e li v e r e d to u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e t a k e y o u b a c k . W h y - w h y d id t h e - w h y d id t h e d e p a r t m e n t n o t c o m m is s i o n s o m e b o d y to d o th e fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y it s e l f r a t h e r t h a n g e t E s ti n a to d o t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w e d id n o t s e e a n y t h i n g w r o n g i n a s k i n g th e m t o d o th e f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y b e c a u s e i t w a s o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t f o r Page 19 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 i m p l e m e n ta t io n t h e y n e e d to u n d e r s ta n d t h e e n v ir o n m e n t b e c a u s e i f y o u g iv e s o m e b o d y e ls e t o d o t h e fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y t h e y m a y n o t understand the environment under which the work needs to be done. S o o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h e n w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t t h e y m u s t t h e n d o th e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y s o t h a t i f t h e f e a s i b i li ty - i f t h e y h a v e a c o n c e r n w i t h th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t h a t t h e y w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d w i th t h e p r o j e c t . Th e n th e y w i ll b e a b l e to t e l l u s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t s h o u l d n o t a c t u a ll y - s h o u l d y o u n o t a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a v e fir s t c o m m is s i o n e d a fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y e v e n b e fo r e y o u 10 b r o u g h t i n E s ti n a ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir w e h a v e l o o k e d a t t h a t a n d t h e - t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t w e h a d w a s t h a t th e m o d e l t h a t w e w a n t e d to i m p l e m e n t w a s n o t t h e m o d e l u n d e r w h ic h w e p u t t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Under which? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e m o d e l th a t th e y w e r e t o i m p l e m e n t - r e m e m b e r i f y o u d o a f e a s i b il it y s tu d y y o u m u s t h a v e y o u r b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a ti o n o f what you want to do. Yo u d o n o t d o a fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y i n g e n e r a l b e c a u s e i f y o u d o a g e n e r a l o n e i t m a y n o t s u it t h e s p e c i f ic s th a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r. T h e r e f o r e t h e y h a d t o d o t h a t b e c a u s e th e y w e r e t h e 20 o n e s t o b e a b l e t o s a y t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h is f e a s i b il it y s t u d y a r e o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r. T h is is w h a t w e w a n t to a c h i e v e . T h e r e f o r e th e y w il l th e n b e t h e c o r r e c t p e r s o n t o d o t h a t . O t h e r w is e w e w o u l d h a v e d o n e a g e n e r a l fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y a n d o n ly t o fi n d t h a t i t i s n o t s u i t a b l e f o r t h e i n t e n ti o n t h e y w a n t. W e m a y n e e d to r e p e a t th e f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t c o v e r t h e a r e a s o f Page 20 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w h ic h th e - th e y a r e l o o k i n g f o r. H e n c e w e th e n s a i d t h e y m u s t d o t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y t o s e e if it m e e ts t h e ir r e q u ir e m e n t s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t is th e p o s i ti o n n o t th a t y o u h a d to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s e l v e s a s th e d e p a r t m e n t t h e f e a t u r e s - t h e e s s e n ti a l fe a t u r e s o f w h a t - o f t h e p r o je c t t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o - t o b e e n g a g e d i n a n d o n c e y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h o s e fe a t u r e s w h y c o u l d y o u n o t s a y le t u s l o o k f o r s o m e b o d y t o d o a f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y a n d b e c a u s e w e u n d e r s t a n d t h e f e a t u r e s o f th e p r o je c t t h a t w e w a n t t o s t a r t w e w il l t e l l t h o s e p e o p l e 10 w h o a r e g o in g t o d o t h e f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y t h a t w e - y o u m u s t in q u ir e in t o t h e f e a s i b il it y o f a p r o j e c t t h a t w il l h a v e t h e fo ll o w i n g fe a t u r e s a n d t h e y b r i n g y o u t h e s t u d y. Yo u s a tis f y y o u r s e lf t h a t th e fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y s a y s i t c a n b e p u r s u e d . Th e r e a r e p r o p e r g r o u n d s t h a t i t w il l b e a s u c c e s s a n d t h e n y o u b r in g i n s o m e b o d y w h o l o o k s a t t h e f e a s i b il it y s t u d y a n d t h e n s a y s n o t h is - I c a n d o t h i s . We can do this. W e - w e c a n m o v e w it h i t. W o u l d t h a t n o t h a v e b e e n a b e tt e r w a y b e c a u s e th e n a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t y o u r e m a i n i n t h e d r iv i n g s e a t - i n t h e d r iv e r ’s s e a t . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h e e s s e n ti a l f e a t u r e s o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d th e 20 m o d e l t h a t y o u w a n t to d o . Yo u i n s tr u c t p e o p le t o d o a fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y w i t h t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t t h is - th e s e a r e t h e e s s e n ti a l fe a t u r e s . They come back. Yo u a r e a b l e t o s a y it i s f in e a n d t h e n y o u g e t s o m e b o d y w h o lo o k s a t t h i s a n d i s a b l e t o c o m m i t t o a c h ie v i n g i t a g a in s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f t h e s t u d y. W o u ld t h a t n o t b e a b e t t e r w a y o f d o i n g it ? Page 21 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t w o u l d n o t b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e i f y o u e n g a g e in a p r o j e c t o f t h is n a t u r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: Yo u - y o u n e e d t h e - t h e i m p le m e n t e r t o - to u n d e r s t a n d th e e n v ir o n m e n t u n d e r w h ic h t o i m p le m e n t r a t h e r th a n ju s t r e a d in g a d o c u m e n t . H e n c e i n - i n m o s t in s t a n c e s o f t h is n a t u r e y o u d o w h a t - w h a t th e y c a ll a 1 0 - T p r o j e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR THABETHE: S o t h a t y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e g r o u n d r u l e s b e f o r e y o u d o t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o je c t . S o t h a t - t h a t w a s v e r y c r i t ic a l b e c a u s e i f - i f y o u h a v e n o t d o n e t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y y o u r s e l f y o u w o u l d n o t b e e v e n p r iv y to t h e r u le s a n d r e g u l a t i o n o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r c o u n tr y in t e r m s o f s p e c i f ic a r e a s . I t a l lo w s y o u t o b e a b l e a ls o t o s a y i n t e r m s o f t h e d a i ly i n d u s tr y w h a t a r e t h e r u l e s . It - it opens you up so that you - you even read more about t h o s e is s u e s . R a t h e r th a n w h e n y o u h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t r e a d ily p r e p a r e d a n d - a n d y o u e v e n d o n o t h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t w h a t a r e t h e la w s s a y i n g a b o u t t h a t p a r tic u l a r a r e a . Yo u m a y th e n t e n d 20 t o p l a n d i ff e r e n tl y fr o m w h a t i s e x p e c te d o f y o u . H e n c e t h e n w h e n y o u d o a 1 0 - T i t a ls o a ll o w s y o u t o b e a b l e t o - to r e a d m o r e a n d u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h e n i t g i v e s y o u a b e t te r d i r e c t i o n f o r y o u t o d o y o u r i m p l e m e n ta t io n . CHAIRPERSON: I w il l l e t M s G c a b a s h e c o n t in u e b u t t h e i m p r e s s io n I g o t fr o m a n e a r l i e r a n s w e r y o u g a v e to o n e o f h e r q u e s t i o n s s u g g e s ts Page 22 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t o m e t h a t y o u w e r e d e fe r r i n g t o E s ti n a . Whereas I expected you as t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e - th is i s a n - a n a g r i c u l tu r a l p r o je c t. S o i t is n o t s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u a r e s u p p o s e d to k n o w n o th in g a b o u t. T h i s f a l ls w i t h i n y o u r fi e l d - y o u k n o w. I - I e x p e c t e d y o u t o b e - t o h a v e fu ll u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f e v e r y t h i n g t h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e . S o t h a t E s ti n a a r e n o t tr e a te d li k e t h e y a r e e x p e r t s i n a n y t h i n g th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w - y o u k n o w. Th a t - th a t is my i m p r e s s i o n . I got the i m p r e s s io n th a t y o u w e r e d e fe r r i n g t o th e m . W h e r e a s f o r m e t h is is a n a g r i c u l tu r a l p r o j e c t a n d th e f ir s t 10 thing must be th a t you as the department must u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e p r o j e c t, t h e m o d e l a n d s o o n . have a full Of course the i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t m u s t a l s o h a v e b u t i t m u s t s t a r t w i t h y o u . T h a t i s t h e i m p r e s s io n I h a v e . A m I b e in g u n f a ir t o y o u ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, y e s . I a m s a y i n g i t is n o t r i g h t C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: B e c a u s e C h a ir y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t p r e v io u s ly I h a v e a ls o i n d ic a te d t h is . T h e - t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a s t w o r o l e s to p l a y. T h e m o n i t o r i n g r o l e i n t e r m s o f th e A c t . At the same time the m o n i t o r in g r o l e o f th e i m p l e m e n t a t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t . 20 Yo u a ls o d o n o t w a n t a n e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e y o u s t ic k t o o n ly w h a t y o u k n o w. Yo u o p e n u p f o r n e w i n n o v a t io n s . N o w i f - i f i t is o n l y th e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t d o e s i t w h o - w h o m a y n o t n e c e s s a r i ly o p e n u p to n e w i n n o v a ti o n b e c a u s e w e s tic k to w h a t w e k n o w. I f y o u a l lo w i t to o th e r p e o p le t o d o i t a n d b r i n g i t t o y o u a n d y o u d o a n e v a lu a ti o n . I t o p e n s u p a n d i t b r in g s in o th e r Page 23 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t e c h n o l o g i e s th a t y o u m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f . H e n c e in a n u m b e r o f i n s ta n c e s y o u w i ll - y o u w il l s e e G o v e r n m e n t g iv in g - g iv in g w o r k o n o n w h a t w e c a l l a 1 0 - T to s a y g o a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n o f w h a t I want. I w i ll lo o k a t i t a n d s a y y e s t h i s i s h o w I w a n t i t o r n o , t h is is n o t h o w I w a n t i t. S o i t o p e n s u p a n d a s s is ts y o u to d o th a t . W e a r e n o t ta k i n g y o u r r e s p o n s ib il it y a w a y b u t w e a r e - w e a r e s a y i n g g o d o it . I w i ll lo o k a t i t . I f I a m n o t h a p p y I w il l s a y s o . I f I a m h a p p y g o i n g to say so. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms G c a b a s h e . ADV GCABASHE: Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e th e I j u s t w a n t y o u t o u n d e r s ta n d th e c o n te x t o f th e q u e s t i o n s I a m a s k i n g r e v o lv e a r o u n d d i d y o u m o n i to r a n d i n te r r o g a te th e s e i te m s in th a t m o n t h l y fi n a n c i a l r e p o r t ? I ju s t k e e p c o m i n g b a c k to w h e r e I a m b e c a u s e t h e q u e s t io n s a r e b r o a d a n d I d o n o t w a n t y o u to l o s e f o c u s i n r e s p e c t o f w h y I a m a s k in g y o u m y q u e s ti o n s . A r e y o u h a p p y w it h m y c o n t e x t u a li s a t io n o f m y q u e s ti o n s ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . I a m - I a m h a p p y C h a ir p r o v i d e d t h e q u e s ti o n i s n o t s a y i n g M r T h a b e th e y o u a r e p e r s o n a ll y r e s p o n s ib le f o r - fo r 20 m o n i t o r in g . I w a s p e r s o n a lly r e s p o n s i b l e a s a d e p a r t m e n t t o d o th e m o n i t o r in g . S o t h i s w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e . Th e r e w e r e o ff ic i a ls o n t h e g r o u n d - o n t h e d is tr ic t a n d s o o n - o n t h e p r o j e c t a n d th e y h a v e b e e n g o i n g t h e r e c h e c k i n g if t h e w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e . E v e r y ti m e w h e n r e q u e s ts f o r p a y m e n t c o m e s in t h e y w il l th e n c e r t if y a n d s a y w e a g r e e w i t h y o u . T h is w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e . Page 24 of 200 It has 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 b e e n d e l iv e r e d . T h e r e f o r e w e a d v is e t h a t t h e H O D c a n p r o c e e d w it h t h e p a y m e n t . T h a t - t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir in tr y i n g t o c l a r i fy t h e q u e s ti o n . T h a t I a m n o t s a y in g I - I a m - I a m n o t ta k i n g a c c o u n t a b i li ty b u t i t - it w a s n o t e x p e c t e d o f m e to i n d iv id u a l ly g o a n d ti c k e v e r y b l o c k o f w o r k t h a t w a s d o n e b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e r e p o r ti n g t o m e t o s a y y e s t h i s h a s h a p p e n e d th is h a s h a p p e n e d . W e c a n t h e r e fo r e p r o c e e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e n o t t a k i n g a c c o u n t a b i li ty ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o . I a m n o t s a y - I a m - C h a ir I a m s a y i n g I a m n o t 10 s a y in g I a m n o t ta k i n g a c c o u n ta b il it y. I a m s a y i n g t h e r e w e r e o th e r p e o p l e th a t w e r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e g o t t w o n e g a ti v e s th e r e . Yo u - y o u w a n t t o s a y y o u ta k e … MR THABETHE: I take … C H A I R P E R S O N : R e s p o n s i b i li t y. M R T H A B E T H E : I t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: B u t I m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a b l e i n d iv i d u a l ly to g o a n d ti c k e a c h a n d e v e r y b o x . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : Mr T h a b e t h e w h e n M s M t s h iz a w a s h e r e - I h a v e h e r tr a n s c r ip t in fr o n t o f m e . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: I a m n o t i n t e r r o g a ti n g t h e q u a li t y o f t h a t fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y. S h e t o l d t h e C h a ir m a n t h a t t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d a n d I q u o te : Page 25 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 “ B e c a u s e th e b a s is th r o u g h w h ic h w e m a d e t h e approval was false. The Pr o v i n c e must now c o n d u c t a p r o p e r f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y f o r t h e p r o j e c t … ” MR THABETHE: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : “ … a n d a ls o th a t f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y w i ll t h e n in f o r m a p r o p e r b u s i n e s s p l a n t h a t t h e y m u s t c o n c l u d e o n th e a p p li c a t io n s fo r w a t e r r ig h ts a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e i n d ic a ti o n o f l iv e s t o c k t h a t m i g h t a n d w e w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e th e r i n th e b u s i n e s s e x e c u t i o n th e r e w o u l d b e s o m e c h a n g e i n 10 the breed etcetera.” S o w h e n t h e y h a d v is i te d t h e f a r m i n h e r b a c k t o o ffi c e r e p o r t t h e s e a r e t h e c o n c l u s io n s t h e y d r e w a n d th e o n e I a m b r i n g i n g y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o is t h e s u b s t a n d a r d q u a li ty o f t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y th a t le d t o h e r w r it i n g i n h e r r e p o r t th a t y o u n e e d e d t o c o n d u c t a p r o p e r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. I h a v e t o ld y o u w h a t i s w r i t te n h e r e i n th e tr a n s c r ip t . T h i s w a s her evidence. Yo u h a v e u n d e r s to o d w h a t I h a v e r e a d h e r e ? I a m n o t a s k i n g if y o u a g r e e . 20 I am asking if you have understood what I have read here. M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, I - I h e a r - I m a y - b e c a u s e I a m n o t f o l lo w in g it c o m p le t e l y. If - i f t h i s q u e s ti o n i s r e l a ti n g t o t h e f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y t h a t is a tt a c h e d h e r e - is t h a t r e f e r r i n g to t h a t s t a t e m e n t o r i s i t r e f e r r i n g t o w h a t th e y h a d a c c o u n te d w h e n t h e y v is it e d t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e t h o s e w o u ld b e t w o d i ffe r e n t t h in g s . Page 26 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e t h e t h e r e w a s o n e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y. We a g r e e d t h is l o n g a g o . It is d a t e d O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 . A m I c o r r e c t? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir th e r e w e r e tw o f e a s i b i li ty s t u d ie s . W e h a v e d is c u s s e d i t. T h e r e w a s a p r e f e a s i b il it y s t u d y a n d t h e r e w a s t h e n th e fi n a l is e d f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. ADV GCABASHE: M r Th a b e t h e y o u r e v id e n c e is th a t t h a t fr e e - p r e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y - y o u r e v id e n c e … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: 10 business plan. T h a t p r e f e a s i b i li t y s t u d y w a s i n f a c t t h e - t h e I t is o n r e c o r d . I h a v e g o t t h e tr a n s c r i p t h e r e if y o u w a n t m e t o r e a d i t b a c k t o y o u a n d th a t b u s i n e s s p l a n w a s d a t e d October 2012. M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir l e t m e g o b a c k a n d e x p l a i n i t a g a i n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR THABETHE: T h e r e - t h e r e w e r e i n i ti a l d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e p r o d u c e d . W h e n w e a g r e e d i n J u l y w h e n w e t r a n s f e r r e d th e 3 0 m i ll i o n w e h a d th e n s a i d t h e y m u s t g o a n d d o a d e ta il e d fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y. N o w w h e n y o u d o a d e t a i l e d f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y y o u t h e n g o a n d d o a d e t a i le d b u s i n e s s p l a n w i t h - w i th d e s i g n s o f t h e p r o je c t s . 20 With maps of the p r o j e c ts a n d a l l t h o s e t h in g s n e e d to b e p u t i n th e r e . Now those were the things that - that were done. Now what what I had agreed is that when we - we - we went to discuss and agree. T h e y g a v e u s a n i n it i a l d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a - a d o c u m e n t in p r o g r e s s . S o e a c h t i m e t h e y c o m p l e te d th a t d o c u m e n t th e y w o u ld b r i n g it t o u s . W e lo o k a t i t . W e w il l m a k e o u r c o m m e n ts a n d o u r i n p u ts . Page 27 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 T h e y g o b a c k a n d r e w o r k . S o i t w a s f o r w a r d a n d b a c k w a r d in t e r m s o f d e a li n g w i th th a t . We did not expect them to submit d o c u m e n ts w h e n t h e y w e r e d o n e . O n ly th e n w e s t a r t m a k i n g o u r in p u t. S o it w a s - i t w a s w o r k i n p r o g r e s s a ll t h e t i m e . S o th e y h a v e b e e n p r o d u c in g t h e s e r e p o r ts a n d th e n th e y w i l l g o b a c k a n d - a n d g iv e u s a n d th o s e p a r t s t h a t w e r e b e in g c o m p l e t e d . W e w il l t h e n p r o c e e d w i t h t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f th o s e . So t h e r e h a d b e e n a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e h a d a g r e e d b u t t h e o v e r a l l d o c u m e n t is t h e o n e th a t w a s t h e n p u t o n t h e t a b l e e v e n t u a l ly a t 10 t h e e n d t o s a y h e r e i s t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y i n t e r m s o f t h e o v e r a ll i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : I w i ll s i m p ly r e fe r y o u C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o p o i n t in r e h a s h i n g s o m e t h i n g th a t is … . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I s tr a n s c r i b e d v e r y c l e a r ly i n th e tr a n s c r ip t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: I w i ll r e fe r y o u C h a ir m a n to th e tr a n s c r i p t o f 4 October … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : 2 0 1 9 . D a y 1 - 7 - 7 . P a g e 2 - 0 - 1 o f 2 - 0 - 3 a n d it w il l b e li n e n i n e th r o u g h t o l in e 1 9 w h e r e t h is is s u e i s d e a l t w i t h b y Mr Thabethe. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : I w o u ld l ik e to m o v e o n fr o m h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e is m u c h w e n e e d t o c o m p l e te . Page 28 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I t h o u g h t t h a t fr o m w h a t y o u r e a d t h e r e w h a t w a s s a i d w a s t h e r e w a s n o p r o p e r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th is is c o r r e c t . B y t h e D A F F p e o p l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : D e p a r t m e n t - N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u h a v e t h e d a te m o r e o r le s s w h e n - w h e n t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n w h e n th a t r e p o r t w a s m a d e t o s a y a p r o p e r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y m u s t b e d o n e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n , c a n I a g a i n ju s t r e f e r y o u t o - I w i ll l o o k 10 a t t h e s ta t e m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : O f M s M t s h iz a a n d c o m e b a c k t o y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E : W i t h t h a t s p e c i fic r e f e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I t w a s - i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n w h e n t h e y h a d g o n e t o t h e f a r m I th i n k i n J u ly 2 0 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E : J u ly / A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t t h e r e f e r e n c e in t h e tr a n s c r ip t C h a ir m a n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: Is 8 October … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. ADV GCABASHE: 2019. Page 29 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . M a y b e w h i le y o u a r e l o o k i n g I c o u ld p u t t h is t o y o u M r Th a b e t h e . W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h e a s s e r ti o n t h a t p r o b a b l y a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 2 - I m a y b e m is t a k e n a b o u t t h e - t h e t i m e - th a t a s a t t h a t ti m e t h e r e w a s n o p r o p e r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t? MR THABETHE: C h a i r i f - i f t h e r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o th a t I a g r e e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s a n d t h a t h a s b e e n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f n a ti o n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR THABETHE: To s a y t h e r e w a s n o p r o p e r f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y a n d a t t h a t ti m e w e h a d n o t c o n c l u d e d th e fe a s i b il it y s tu d y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d t h e - a n d w h a t y o u r e g a r d e d a s a p r o p e r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y o n o c c u r r e d w h e n ? In O c t o b e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e - t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s o n ly s u b m i t te d w h e n ? MR THABETHE: I - I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y C h a ir b u t I t h i n k th e ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t m u c h l a t e r t h a n J u l y 2 0 1 2 ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e we agreed it was October 2012 b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t is r e f le c te d o n th e d o c u m e n t r ig h t a t t h e b o t t o m . I c a n t a k e y o u t o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p a g e r e f e r e n c e i f y o u w o u l d lik e u s t o d o Page 30 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s o . W e h a v e a ll a g r e e d - a l l a l o n g a g r e e d t h a t t h e fe a s i b i li ty s tu d y is d a t e d O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 . A r e y o u c h a n g i n g y o u r m in d a b o u t t h a t ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir t h is is e x a c t ly - t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t s h e i s - m a y b e w e s h o u ld g o b a c k t o t h e fe a s i b il i t y s tu d y i ts e l f b e c a u s e i t is a d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n a tt a c h e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is it … M R T H A B E T H E : S o th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : It is e a s y t o g e t it … ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s i t is C h a ir m a n . J a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t u s - le t u s d o t h a t. J u s t s o th a t … A D V G C A B A S H E : I f y o u p ic k u p y o u r R e f e r e n c e Fi l e B f o r B e r n a r d o r B f o r b r e a d a n d g o to p a g e 3 - 2 - 1 . Yo u … M R T H A B E T H E : R e f e r e n c e F il e B . A D V G C A B A S H E : B - o n t h e R e p o r ts B u n d l e . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . N o t t h e r e f e r e n c e b u t th e R e p o r t s B u n d l e B . At page 3-2-1 you get the p r e l i mi n a r y r e p o r t w h ic h y o u c a l le d t h e b u s i n e s s p la n . T h is i s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d o f y o u r e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e . A t 3 - 2 - 1 R e p o r t s B u n d le B f o r B e r n a r d . A d v o c a t e M o k o e n a is c o m i n g u p t o a s s is t y o u . M R T H A B E T H E : I a m t r y i n g t o c h e c k C h a i r. C h a ir p a g e ? 20 ADV GCABASHE: P a g e 3 - 2 - 1 a n d t h e o t h e r p a g e is 3 - 3 - 1 . So there a r e tw o r e p o r t s h e r e . Th e t w o w e a r e d is c u s s i n g . T h e f ir s t o n e is t h e p r e l i mi n a r y o n e t h a t y o u r e f e r t o w h ic h w a s t h e s h o r t o n e a n d th e n a t s o th a t w il l b e a t 3 - 2 - 1 . I a m ju s t c h e c k i n g t o s e e w h e r e y o u s t o p . I think you have it. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . I a m a t p a g e 3 - 2 - 1 C h a ir. Page 31 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : E x c e l le n t ; a n d t h e n i f y o u g o t o p a g e 3 - 3 - 1 y o u fi n d t h a t fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y. 3 - 3 - 1 s a m e - i t f o l lo w s o n th e p r e li m i n a r y o n e . E x c e l le n t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : R i g h t . S o i f y o u l o o k a t - w e a r e n o w d is c u s s i n g th e d a t e o f t h e f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: Am I correct? If you go to page 3-3-2 - page - the v e r y n e x t p a g e . R i g h t a t t h e t o p le f t h a n d c o r n e r y o u s e e t h e d a t e o f 10 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 . A c r o s s fr o m w h e r e th e E s ti n a l o g is b u t o n t h e l e f t h a n d s id e … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d w e h a v e a l l a lo n g w o r k e d o n t h a t b a s is . T h a t t h a t is t h e d a te o f t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. Are you changing your mind a b o u t t h a t? MR THABETHE: O k a y. C h a ir w h a t - w h a t I w a n t t o c h e c k is - i s t h is t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t i s r e f e r r in g to ? ADV GCABASHE: T h i s is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u f u r n i s h e d t o t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t . 20 M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u l ik e y o u h a v e s o m e c o n c e r n . M R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m s u r p r is e d a c t u a ll y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T H A B E T H E : I f - i f t h is i s t h e d o c u m e n t th e y a r e r e f e r r in g t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 32 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: That it - it - they are not happy with it. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e ll i f th e - i f t h e r e p o r t t h e y m a d e w h e r e t h e y s a i d th e r e m u s t b e a p r o p e r f e a s i b i li t y s t u d y w a s d o n e in J u l y. It c o u l d not be this document … A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n … CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e th e d o c u m e n t w o u ld n o t e x i s t a t t h a t ti m e b u t t h e d a t e o f J u ly i s s o m e th in g t h a t m i g h t n o t b e a c c u r a te . A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n i t is th e - I h a d in d ic a t e d J u ly 2 0 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h J u ly 2 0 … 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e y o n ly c a m e o n - b o a r d i n 2 0 1 3 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o … ADV GCABASHE: Not in 2012 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: But I have … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I - I m is u n d e r s t o o d , j a . A D V G C A B A S H E : H e r s t a te m e n t C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: August 2013. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e f a c ts a r e t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : D A F F w a s o n ly b r o u g h t o n - b o a r d f u l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : In 2 0 1 3 ? ADV GCABASHE: In 2013 somewhere. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D o e s th a t h e lp c l a r if y ? Page 33 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Ja. p r o c e s s w o u ld b e . I - I h e a r C h a ir b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly C h a ir t h e W e - w e s u b m it t h e - t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n to t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d - a n d t h e n t h e y w o u ld t h e n w r i te t o u s a n d r a is e i s s u e s w h ic h in t h is in s t a n c e - t h a t is w h y I l o o k v e r y s u r p r is e d th a t i f t h e y h a d n o t r a i s e d is s u e s w it h u s in te r ms o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r b u s in e s s p l a n a n d i t - i t m e a n s t h e y - th e y w e r e n o t concerned. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l t h e - t h e w i t n e s s f r o m th e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t w h o g a v e e v i d e n c e h e r e - i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y - s a i d t h a t a t th e m e e ti n g 10 w h e r e th e P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e m a d e a p r e s e n t a t i o n t o a c e r ta in c o m m i t t e e o f t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d e a l s w i th t h e s e m a t t e r s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: T h e d e l e g a t io n fr o m t h e P r o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e d i d n o t b r i n g c e r ta i n d o c u m e n t s w h i c h - a s I u n d e r s to o d i t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t b u t th e y m e n t io n e d t h a t t h e - th o s e d o c u m e n ts e x is te d - a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t - a n d I h a v e th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t o n e o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts t h a t th e y s a i d s h o u ld h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t b u t 20 w a s n o t b r o u g h t w a s a b u s i n e s s p l a n a n d /o r t h e f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y b u t t h e y - b u t s h e s a id t h a t t h e y w e r e t o ld t h a t th o s e d i d e x is t . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t - M s G c a b a s h e m i g h t in d ic a t e if I a m m i s s m y r e c o ll e c t io n is i n a c c u r a te in s o m e r e s p e c ts . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o . I t i s - i t is a c c u r a t e C h a ir m a n a n d I w i ll s i m p l y Page 34 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 in t h e in t e r e s t o f p r o g r e s s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : P o i n t y o u to h e r s t a t e m e n t w h ic h y o u d o h a v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: And it is paragraphs 8 and nine. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e r e th a t e x p l a n a ti o n is g iv e n i n h e r s t a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s o v e r a n d a b o v e t h e tr a n s c r ip t r e f e r e n c e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e r e s h e r e a l ly d e a ls w i t h t h e c o n c e r n s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t w e r e r a i s e d b y th e m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A f t e r t h e in i ti a l v is it in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o t h e f ir s t v is i t fr o m t h e Pr o v in c i a l D e p a r t m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: Was in January 2013. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e ir v i s i t to t h e f a r m … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s in J u ly … ADV GCABASHE: Was in … CHAIRPERSON: 2013. A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s A u g u s t n o w th a t I Page 35 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: August, yes. A D V G C A B A S H E : H a v e a s c e r ta i n e d th e d a te C h a ir m a n . A u g u s t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV GCABASHE: 2013. CHAIRPERSON: 2013. A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t C h a ir m a n fr a n k ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e i s s u e I a m r a i s i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV GCABASHE: Is n o t r e a lly a b o u t w h a t t h e y d i d o r d i d n o t h a v e b e f o r e th e m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : I a m in t e r r o g a t in g p a y i n g U S $ 5 m il li o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r t h e o n l y d o c u m e n t th a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e fo r e t h is C o m m is s i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h ic h is c a ll e d a f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 ADV GCABASHE: A n d t h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t M r T h a b e th e h a s b e f o r e h i m d a t e d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 - Mr T h a b e t h e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k w h a t I p a r t ic u l a r l y w a n te d t o h e a r w h a t M r T h a b e t h e h a d t o s a y - a n d I t h i n k i t i s li n k e d to w h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g in t o - w a s h e r e is t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t s a y i n g y o u d o n o t h a v e a p r o p e r fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y. I f th e y a r e r e fe r r i n g to th e fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y Page 36 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h a t th e o n ly f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y th a t w e k n o w o f … MR THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n it r a is e s t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t t h a t . D i d y o u w o r k o n t h e b a s is o f w h a t is r e a l ly n o t a p r o p e r f e a s i b il it y s t u d y a s f a r a s th e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t i s c o n c e r n e d , d i d y o u ta k e – d i d y o u a c c e p t i t a s a p r o p e r f e a s i b i li t y s t u d y a n d i t m ig h t g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t io n M s G c a b a s h e r a is e d a b o u t t e r ms o f y o u r m o n i t o r i n g ? D i d y o u g o f a r e n o u g h t o c h e c k t h a t if t a x p a y e r ’s m o n e y w a s t o b e u s e d there was a proper basis for it? 10 M R T H A B E T H E: J a C h a ir, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a ir i f th e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e i s r e f e r r in g to t h is d o c u m e n t , n o t to b e t h e p r o p e r f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y t h e n I d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h a t ’s n o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n I h a d f r o m t h e m . I t m ig h t h a v e c o m e a c r o s s s o o f la t e b e c a u s e e v e n s t a r ti n g fr o m o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h e y a g r e e d w i th u s a n d a c c e p t e d . A f t e r o u r p r e s e n ta t io n , a f t e r o u r – w e h a d a b u s i n e s s p l a n t h a t w e p r e s e n te d t o th e m o r i g i n a ll y w h ic h i s n o t t h is b u s i n e s s p l a n b u t it ’s a c o m p r e h e n s iv e b u s i n e s s p l a n o f t h e p r o v i n c e w h ic h in c l u d e s o t h e r p r o j e c t th a t is w h a t is o r i g i n a l ly b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o th e N a t io n a l 20 Assessment Panel. N o w i f th e i n d iv id u a l p r o j e c ts i n t h a t b u s i n e s s p l a n a r e a g r e e d u p o n , i t is o n ly th e n t h a t N a t i o n a l s a y s , t h e n s u b m i t t o u s t h e in d iv i d u a l b u s i n e s s p l a n o f e a c h o f t h e p r o je c ts th a t w e h a v e a p p r o v e d . N o w th a t is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g , th a t w e a r e n o t e x p e c t e d t o b r i n g t h o s e in d iv i d u a l b u s i n e s s p l a n s w h e n w e a r e g o in g t o p r e s e n t th e p r o j e c ts f o r Page 37 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a c c e p ta n c e . T h e n la t e r o n c e t h e y a g r e e w i t h i t , i n th e A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l o f N a t io n a l th e n t h e y s a y p r o v in c e th e s e w e r e t h e i s s u e s t h a t w e r e r a is e d , t h e y w r i t e t o u s a n d s a y d e a l w i t h t h e s e i s s u e s o n t h is p r o j e c t s t h a t w e h a v e a p p r o v e d , th o s e t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t a p p r o v e d f a l l o u t a n d t h e n w e g o t h e n a n d d e a l w i th t h e i s s u e s t h e y ’ v e r a i s e d a n d w e t h e n o v e r a n d a b o v e th a t p r e p a r e t h e d o c u m e n t s w h ic h t h e n th e y r e q u ir e p e r in d i v i d u a l b u s in e s s p la n . T h a t is my u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: P e r i n d iv id u a l p r o j e c t ? MR THABETHE: T h e in d iv i d u a l p r o j e c ts , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: M m m o k a y, c o n t in u e M s G c a b a s h e . ADV GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a i r m a n . I j u s t w a n t t o r e m in d y o u , M r T h a b e th e t h a t t h e E s ti n a o b l i g a t io n s f o r t h e fir s t p h a s e t h a t y o u s i g n e d o ff o n in c l u d e d t h e p r e p a r a t io n o f a f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y. Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t – i t ’s a d o c u m e n t w e ’v e in t e r r o g a t e d , t h e C h a i r m a n h a s i n t e r r o g a t e d w i t h y o u , i t ’s o n p a g e 1 3 7 8 o f r e f e r e n c e B u n d le D , t h a t ’s t h e o n e w h e r e you signed o ff th a t land a c q u is i ti o n and E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff e c t A s s e s s m e n t , f e a s i b il it y s t u d y, w a te r r e tic u l a ti o n , e l e c tr i c i ty c o n n e c t io n s e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a h a d b e e n c o m p le t e d . 20 MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d th e d a t e o f th a t i s t h e 1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y. T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o a s o f t h e 1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y y o u h a d r e c e iv e d – th is is w h a t’s w r i t te n h e r e , th e fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y ? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . Page 38 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: A n d th is i s w h y w e p u t i t t o y o u t h a t , th a t f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y is t h e O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 f e a s i b il it y s tu d y t h a t y o u h a d s i g n e d o ff o n . MR THABETHE: C h a ir I agree w i t h t h e s t a te m e n t , my o n ly d is a g r e e m e n t i t ’s w h e n t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e w a s r e fe r r i n g to t h i s f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y. I ’ m n o t d is p u ti n g w h a t s h e is s a y i n g b u t th a t – I’ m s a y i n g t o h e r, i f th e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t h a s b e e n r e fe r r i n g to t h i s d o c u m e n t , t h e n I h a v e a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e t h e y w i ll n o t b e s it t in g w i th a d o c u m e n t , f o r a l m o s t t h e e n t ir e y e a r a n d w h e n t h e y c o m e t o v i s i t th e p r o j e c t , w h e n t h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m i t ’s o n ly t h e n t h a t t h e y 10 r a i s e is s u e s to u s . They should have r a is e d those is s u e s to s a y, no, no A g r ic u l t u r e F r e e S t a t e w e h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h y o u r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y because that had been submitted to them. S o t h e y s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e w a i te d u n ti l O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 t o c o m e b a c k t o u s t o s a y, w e d o n ’ t a g r e e a n d d u r in g t h a t ti m e w h e n t h e y v i s i t e d i t is w h e n a n is s u e w a s r a is e d w i th th e m b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, t h a t ’s w h e r e I’ m s a y i n g I h a v e a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e y o u a g r e e w i t h u s a n d w h e n t h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m t o w a r d s t h e e n d y o u s a y, n o I d o n ’ t a g r e e w i t h y o u . ADV GCABASHE: 20 MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e c a n I c o n t in u e ? Ye s C h a ir. I’ m i n t e r r o g a ti n g th e F iv e M ill i o n U S D o l l a r s y o u p a i d f o r a fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y th a t s a m e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t c o n fir m e d i s t h e O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y, a r e y o u w it h m e ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir I ’ m w i t h y o u C h a ir a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t y o u a r e i n t e r r o g a t i n g t h is f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y b u t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 39 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: N o , n o I ’ m in t e r r o g a t in g t h e p a y m e n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR THABETHE: that N a t io n a l O h t h e p a y m e n t o f th is f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y o n t h e b a s is is saying they don’t agree w i th the f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . ADV GCABASHE: No, let me correct that. CHAIRPERSON: I th i n k l e t M s G c a b a s h e p u t h e r q u e s t i o n o n th e payment. A D V G C A B A S H E: Fo r g e t a b o u t t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t f o r y o u r purposes. 10 MR THABETHE: O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: I ’ m s i m p l y s a y i n g – a n d t h is i s w h y I w e n t b a c k t o c o n te x t u a l is in g m y q u e s ti o n s , d i d y o u in t e r r o g a t e w h a t y o u w e r e s p e n d in g G o v e r n m e n t m o n e y o n – t a x p a y e r ’s m o n e y o n ? MR THABETHE: Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: MR THABETHE: W e a g r e e d th a t , t h a t’s r e a l ly w h a t I ’ m d e a li n g w it h . Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: S o I ’ m a s k i n g w h a t th is F iv e M i ll i o n U S D o l la r s b o u g h t f o r y o u , t h e D e p a r t m e n t . I h a v e s h o w n y o u t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e i n t h e fil e a n d w e s ta r t e d t o h a v e t h i s d is c u s s i o n w h e n I w a n t e d t o 20 know if you knew any of these people on page 1379.2 who had been p a i d s o m e o f th e s e m o n i e s . MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s , th e r e a s o n I ’ m a s k i n g I’ m a s k i n g th e s e q u e s t io n s i s b e c a u s e a t o u r la s t h e a r i n g w e a g r e e d t h a t in te r ms o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t w i t h E s ti n a [i n d is t in c t] E s t in a , y o u h a d t o m o n i to r, y o u h a d Page 40 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t o k n o w w h o s u b - c o n tr a c t o r s w e r e , y o u r e c a l l t h a t? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: G o o d , le t ’s m o v e o n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s t h e a n s w e r t o y o u r q u e s ti o n – w h a t w a s y o u r a n s w e r t o M s G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s ti o n o n w h e t h e r y o u i n t e r r o g a t e d w h a t y o u w e r e p a y in g t h a t Fi v e M i ll io n r a n d f o r ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir w e h a d b e c a u s e t h e – I ’ m tr y in g t o c o n f u s e t h e F iv e M i ll io n a n d t h e 3 0 M i ll io n n o w C h a ir b e c a u s e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W e l l s h e ’s o n t h e F iv e M ill i o n . M R T H A B E T H E : Is i t t h e F iv e M i ll i o n U S D o ll a r s ? ADV GCABASHE: F i v e M il li o n U S D o ll a r s , I ’l l c o m e b a c k t o t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s t h e R 3 0 m i ll i o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y i t ’s th e U S d o ll a r s a n d th e r a n d s , o k a y R 3 0 m i ll io n , Fiv e M il li o n U S D o l l a r s . M R TH A B E T H E : Ye s , t h a t ’s w h y C h a ir I p r e f e r r e d t h a t I s t a y e d o n th e R 3 0 m i ll io n b e c a u s e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 20 CHAIRPERSON: On the rands ja? MR THABETHE: O n t h e r a n d s y e s , r a th e r th a n t h e U S D o ll a r s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes. M R T H A B E T H E: B u t C h a ir t h e r e ’s a d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s a g r e e d u p o n , w h a t w i ll t h is R 3 0 m i ll i o n b e u s e d fo r a n d i t w a s s i g n e d o ff , s o t h a t w a s p a i d o n t h o s e b a s is . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u r e c a ll w h a t th a t d o c u m e n t s a i d t h is w a s fo r ? M R TH A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir w e h a v e th e d o c u m e n t i f s h e c a n r e f e r m e Page 41 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 b a c k to t h i s d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e w e h a d i n t e r r o g a t e d t h a t d o c u m e n t before. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. MR THABETHE: It w a s th e fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y, E I A … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Th e r e w a s R 1 7 m il li o n t h a t w a s p a r t – w a s it p a r t o f t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n , i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly ? ADV GCABASHE: 1378 number N o C h a ir m a n , i f I m i g h t a s s i s t, p le a s e g o to p a g e one, 1378 t h a t’s where that 18th of January le ts … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 10 MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: O n t h e r e p o r ts ? I t ’s r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e B , r e f e r e n c e – s o r r y r e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D f o r D o n a l d i t ’s t h e o n e t h a t y o u h a d a l l a lo n g I th in k i t’s in fr o n t o f y o u r ig h t n o w. MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: O k a y, th a n k s C h a ir. Ye s , 1 3 7 8 a s y o u p a u s e t h e r e p l e a s e le t m e j u s t m a k e o n e o t h e r c o r r e c ti o n , th e to t a l a m o u n t , th a t Fiv e M il li o n U S D o ll a r s c a m e t o w a s R 1 9 m i ll io n p l u s R 3 0 m il li o n s o t h a t ’s R 4 9 m i ll io n , n o t R 3 0 m i ll io n , t h e y c h a r g e d y o u R 4 9 m i ll i o n , i t w a s t w o p a y m e n ts , o n e f o r R 1 9 m i ll io n S o u t h A f r ic a n R a n d s , th a t t h e Tw o M il li o n D o ll a r s 20 tr a n s l a te d i n to r a n d , R 1 9 m il li o n t h e n t h e t h r e e m i ll io n t r a n s la t e d in t o r a n d s w a s R 3 0 m i ll io n , I ’l l g o b a c k t o t h o s e n u m b e r s i f y o u w a n t . I j u s t d o n ’t w a n t y o u to g e t c o n fu s e d a b o u t w h a t I’ m a s k i n g y o u . S o f o r t h is f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y t h a t w e a r e q u e r y i n g y o u p a i d s o m e w h e r e in t h e r e g i o n o f R 4 9 mi ll i o n a n d t h is is w h y I ’ m in t e r r o g a t in g th is i s s u e . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, h e n c e I d o n o t w a n t to s i t i n th e U S D o ll a r s . Page 42 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t w e p a i d a n d w e ’v e s ig n e d o ff in t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s t h e a m o u n t o f R 3 0 m i ll io n th a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n . ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: C a n I i n t e r r o g a t e t h a t C h a ir m a n p le a s e ? Ye s . I w a n t t o b e w h e r e y o u a r e r i g h t n o w. Yo u h a v e a ls o to ld t h is C o m m i s s i o n th a t , t h a t 3 0 m il li o n D o l la r s – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n th a t R 3 0 m i ll i o n t h a t w a s p a id b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n J u n e /J u ly 2 0 1 2 y o u t h o u g h t w a s g o in g t o b e f o r th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. In fa c t , th e m o n th ly r e p o r ts te ll y o u th a t , t h a t m o n e y w a s t a k e n o u t o f t h e c o u n t r y 10 in t w o tr a n c h e s . F ir s t R 2 9 m il li n o n t h e n a n o t h e r R 1 m i ll io n a n d i t w a s said to be reserved for pasteurising equipment. S o le t ’s n o t g e t c o n fu s e d a b o u t w h a t i n f a c t th e R 3 0 m i ll io n S o u th A f r ic a n R a n d s th a t y o u a r e s p e a k in g to r i g h t n o w, th a t is s u e , t h e m o n e y th a t y o u a d v a n c e d i n J u ly 2 0 1 2 , y o u k n o w M r T h a b e th e t h a t , th a t m o n e y w a s t a k e n o u t o f th e c o u n tr y b e c a u s e i t w a s s a i d t o b e r e s e r v in g o r d e r s – p u r c h a s e o r d e r s fo r p a s t e u r is i n g e q u ip m e n t . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, I d o n ’ t k n o w – I d o n o t a g r e e w i th t h e s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e th is d o c u m e n t t h a t I’ v e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h ic h s ta t e m e n t ju s t m a k e th a t c l e a r s o th a t w e c a n … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. MR THABETHE: T h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t s a y s , I k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. M R T H A B E T H E: The statement that says I know that money was taken o u t . W h a t I k n o w C h a ir, i s t h a t o n t h is d o c u m e n t i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 t h e w o r k t h a t w a s e x p e c t e d w a s d e li v e r e d a n d I s i g n e d o ff a n d t h is is w h a t Page 43 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h is m o n e y p a i d f o r. N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e m o n e y a f te r th e w o r k t h a t w e h a d e x p e c t e d t o b e d e li v e r e d t o u s w a s d e li v e r e d , I d o n ’ t k n o w b e c a u s e t h e w o r k w a s d e liv e r e d to u s a n d w e s i g n e d i t o ff o n t h e 1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 a n d t h a t w a s f o r t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s p a id . How the m o n e y w a s m a n a g e d a f t e r w e h a d r e c e iv e d th e w o r k d o n e , is w h a t I d o n ’t k n o w. T h a t i s m y p r o b le m C h a ir, b e c a u s e I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a v e t h e y u s e d th e m o n e y fo r b e c a u s e t h e w o r k th a t w e h a v e r e q u e s te d fr o m t h e m h a d b e e n d e li v e r e d . 10 ADV GCABASHE: C h a i r m a n , I s i m p ly p o i n t Mr T h a b e th e b a c k t o – a n d w e ’l l j u s t g o i n g t o h a v e to p l a y a r o u n d w i t h t h e s e p a g e s M r T h a b e th e , b a c k to t h a t m o n t h l y r e p o r t th a t ’s o n p a g e 1 4 0 3 o f t h e s a m e B u n d le y o u ’v e g o t in y o u r h a n d r i g h t n o w. MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: Ye s C h a ir. D o n ’ t lo s e y o u r p a g e b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u w a n t t o s p e a k t o t h a t i f y o u a r e – w h e r e y o u a r e n o w, g o t o 1 4 0 3 p l e a s e M r T h a b e th e , 1 4 0 3 I b e li e v e y o u a r e g o in g t h e w r o n g w a y. Page 1403 w e ’r e a t r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e D C h a ir m a n , b a c k t o t h e m o n t h ly r e p o r ts . CHAIRPERSON: 20 ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: for parlour I ’ m s t il l a t B . N o b a c k t o th e m o n th ly C h a i r m a n . Page 1403? 1 4 0 3 C h a ir m a n . 1403, yes. A n d i t’s c l e a r l y w r i t t e n t h e r e M r T h a b e th e , r e s e r v e d equipment, R 2 9 m i ll io n , t h a t’s Page 44 of 200 in J u ly 2012, w e ’v e 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 in t e r r o g a t e d t h e is s u e . MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: R 1 m i ll i o n , fi f ty If you go across to October 2012 and another th o u s a n d , same li n e it e m , reserved for parlour e q u ip m e n t . MR THABETHE: A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s , s o th a t m o n e y w a s n o t u s e d f o r t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y, a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t’s w r i t te n h e r e . M R T H A B E T H E: 10 C h a ir la s t t i m e w h e n w e s p o k e a b o u t th is , I h a d in d i c a t e d t o th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r t h a t w e h a d p ic k e d t h a t i n t h e r e p o r t a n d w e h a d e n g a g e d t h e m t o s a y w e s e e th a t y o u h a d r e s e r v e d t h e m o n e y f o r p a r lo u r e q u i p m e n t w h ic h w e e x p e c t t o b e g i v e n t o d o t h e w o r k th a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n . T h e n th e a g r e e m e n t – t h e d i s c u s s i o n w a s w h y I s a i d w e w e r e t h e n c o m f o r ta b le , b e c a u s e w e w e r e p r o m is e d t h a t t h e w o r k o f t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w ill n e v e r b e d e l a y e d , i t w i ll p r o c e e d a s a g r e e d a n d i t w o u ld b e c o m p l e t e d o n th e ti m e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e u s in g e x p e r tis e t h a t w i ll n o t r e q u i r e m o n e y t o b e p a id to t h e m a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r m o m e n t , t h e y w o u l d b e p a id la t e r. 20 H e n c e w e t h e n a g r e e d w i t h t h e m , a s l o n g a s th e w o r k t h a t w e h a d p u t t h e m o n e y fo r h a s n o t b e e n d e la y e d a n d a p r o o f i s t h e r e fo r u s t h a t , y e s i n d e e d t h e w o r k th a t w e h a d p u t t h e m o n e y f o r w a s n o t d e l a y e d , it w a s p r e s e n t e d t o u s o n ti m e a n d t h e w o r k w a s d o n e . H e n c e I’ m s a y i n g C h a ir – t h a t ’s w h y w e h a d r a is e d it b e c a u s e i f th e y h a d p u t t h is m o n e y a s id e a n d t h e o t h e r w o r k t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n Page 45 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 d o n e , w a s n o t d o n e th e n w e w o u ld h a v e a p r o b le m . A D V G C A B A S H E: In f a c t t h e y t o l d y o u , i f y o u j u s t g o t o t h e p a g e b e f o r e th a t , t h e y t o l d y o u t h a t t h e y w e r e b u s y p u t t in g m o n e y i n . T h e y w e r e p u t t in g i n t h e ir o w n m o n e y s o th a t t h e w o r k y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t could be done. MR THABETHE: A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . H e n c e t h e R 2 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t t h e y r e fe r t o a n d i t is a li n e i t e m i n a n y e v e n t o n p a g e 1 4 0 3 , y o u w il l s e e i t i n S e p t e m b e r a n d t h e n i n O c t o b e r y o u s e e t h e l i n e it e m , E s t in a I n v e s t m e n t R 3 . 7 m il li o n – 10 R 3 7 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . T h e y w e r e p u t ti n g i n th e ir o w n m o n e y, th e y w e r e te ll in g y o u in S e p t e m b e r a n d O c t o b e r s o t h a t th e y c o u l d d o th e w o r k th a t y o u s a y t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o w i t h th e R 3 0 m i ll io n y o u a d v a n c e d t h e m in J u l y 2 0 1 2 , s o m e t h in g v e r y w r o n g t h e r e , d o e s n ’ t a d d u p , w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g d o e s n ’t a d d u p M r T h a b e t h e . M R T H A B E T H E: N o C h a ir, i t a d d s u p b e c a u s e t h e fa c t t h a t th e y ’v e b e e n p u t ti n g t h e ir m o n e y, m e a n s t h e w o r k w a s d o n e t h a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e m to d o . CHAIRPERSON: W h y m u s t t h e y p u t in t h e ir m o n e y w h e n y o u h a v e p u t money for that work? 20 T h e n t h a t s h o u l d b e a q u e s t io n th a t c o m e s n a t u r a l ly, w e ’v e g iv e n y o u m o n e y fo r th is w o r k , w h y a r e y o u p u t t in g in y o u r o w n m o n e y a n d t a k i n g t h e m o n e y th a t w e h a v e g i v e n y o u somewhere else? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t’s w h a t w e a s k e d , y o u r e m e m b e r I s a i d w e r a i s e d th is is s u e a n d w e s a id … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d w h a t w a s th e a n s w e r ? Page 46 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: W e s a i d t o t h e m , t h is m o n e y w e h a v e p u t i t a s i d e f o r t h is p a r ti c u la r p u r p o s e a n d th is i s w h a t w e w a n t to d o b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t m a d e th e m o n e y a v a i la b le fo r t h e a c tiv it ie s , I t h i n k , i f y o u l a t e r lo o k C h a ir, o n t h e D e c e m b e r r e p o r t , y o u r e a li s e t h a t a l o t o f t h e w o r k t h a t w e s h o u l d h a v e p a i d f o r, t h e y h a d a c t u a ll y p a i d fo r b e c a u s e th e y h a d p l a n t e d , th e y h a d d o n e e v e r y t h i n g o n t h e g r o u n d a n d m o n e y h a d b e e n spent and then in January the work of the money…[intervenes]. 10 CHAIRPERSON: N o Mr T h a b e t h e l e t’s s ta y ju s t w it h th e q u e s t io n . MR THABETHE: C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a v e g iv e n th e m m o n e y t o d o a c e r ta i n j o b . MR THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir CHAIRPERSON: T h e y a r e ta k i n g t h a t m o n e y e ls e w h e r e . MR THABETHE: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n t h e y a r e s a y in g t o y o u , w h e n y o u r a i s e d t h e q u e s t io n , t h e y a r e p u t ti n g i n t h e ir o w n m o n e y. The most obvious q u e s t io n , w h y is t h a t n e c e s s a r y, fr o m y o u r s id e ? M R TH A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir, th i s is w h a t w e a l s o a s k e d i n t e r m s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . 20 CHAIRPERSON: What was the answer to the question? M R T H A B E T H E: I n t e r m s o f t h e r e p o r t t h a t w e r e g iv e n t o u s , t h a t w e are p u t t in g aside th is money fo r equipment but the work t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W h y a r e y o u p u tt i n g a s i d e m o n e y g i v e n t o y o u f o r A , p u t t in g i t a s i d e fo r B ? W e h a v e g iv e n y o u t h i s m o n e y f o r A , w h y d id n ’ t y o u s a y to t h e m , y o u m a y n o t d o t h a t , th is m o n e y h a s b e e n g i v e n to y o u Page 47 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 f o r A , y o u m u s t u s e t h a t m o n e y fo r A , y o u c a n ’ t d e c i d e t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o u s e it f o r s o m e th i n g e ls e . I t ’s o u r m o n e y, it ’s p a id t o y o u t o d o A? M R TH A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir, i t’s t h e m a t t e r o f s h if t in g t h e t w o t o s a y t h e m o n e y t h a t y o u h a v e p a id , w e u s e i t f o r th e p u r p o s e o f w h a t y o u w a n t a n d t h e m o n e y t h a t w e h a v e w e ’ll u s e i t f o r t h e o th e r p u r p o s e . CHAIRPERSON: M s G c a b a s h e y o u m i g h t b e w a n ti n g t o – y o u m ig h t o r m i g h t n o t b e w a n t i n g t o a s k m o r e q u e s ti o n s o n t h i s ? ADV GCABASHE: 10 I d o C h a ir m a n , b u t m a y b e w e s h o u l d ta k e t h e t e a b r e a k b e c a u s e i t i s a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t i t r u n s t h r o u g h a ll t h e …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s i t is i m p o r t a n t , j a . ADV GCABASHE: Ye s , o n c e w e ’ v e d e a l t w i t h t h is t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h a ll t h e o th e r is s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, i t’s a b o u t t w e n ty p a s t , w e w i ll t a k e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e t h e b a c k w i th y o u . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: W e w e r e tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t m o n i e s w e r e p a i d f o r I k e e p s a y i n g t h is . Yo u a r e w i t h m e ? A n d t h e p r o p o s i t io n I p u t t o y o u a s w e – j u s t b e fo r e w e a r o s e f o r t e a w a s th a t i f w e l o o k a t th o s e m o n th ly r e p o r ts a n d i f w e a c c e p t t h a t w h a t is w r i t te n o n p a g e 1 4 0 3 t h a t Page 48 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 m il li o n j u s t o v e r 3 0 m il li o n w a s r e s e r v e d . W e c a n a g r e e o n t h a t? T h a t t h a t w a s r e s e r v e d a n d i f w e a r e n o t a g r e e in g l e t u s j u s t c l e a r th a t fir s t one. W a s i t r e s e r v e d o r w a s i t n o t r e s e r v e d w h e n y o u i n te r r o g a te d t h is ? W h a t w a s y o u r f in a l t a k e ? M R TH A B E T H E : C h a ir i n t e r m s o f th e r e p o r t th a t w e r e c e i v e d . T h e y m a d e a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t t h e y w e r e r e s e r v i n g t h e m o n e y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a c c e p t e d t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : A f te r i n t e r r o g a t i n g w e a g r e e d . ADV GCABASHE: 10 S o w e c a n t ic k . Yo u a c c e p te d t h a t t h is 3 0 m il li o n was reserved? M R T H A B E T H E : F o r e q u i p m e n t y e s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : G o o d . O u r n e x t p o i n t i s , y o u t h e n h a d t o p a y fo r t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y a n d I a m g o in g t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o w h e r e y o u w a n t e d t o b e e a r li e r o n . Yo u k n o w t h a t P h a s e 1 t h o s e o b l i g a t io n s . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s w h e r e I a m g o i n g . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u w il l f i n d t h e m o n p a g e 1 3 7 8 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u h a d t o p a y f o r th e s e o b li g a t i o n s t h a t h a d now been completed as at the 18 January 2013? M R T H A B E T H E: Ye s C h a ir w e p a i d – w e h a d a lr e a d y tr a n s f e r r e d th e m o n e y fo r t h e m to b e d o n e . Page 49 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : N o t h is is w h a t I w a n t u s – j u s t to t a k e i t s lo w ly Mr T h a b e th e . W e h a v e j u s t a g r e e d th a t t h e m o n e y y o u tr a n s f e r r e d in J u l y 2 0 1 2 is t h e s a m e m o n e y t h a t is o n t h e m o n th ly r e p o r t th a t w a s r e s e r v e d f o r p a r lo u r e q u ip m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w h e n w e s ig n e d o ff th is r e p o r t i n J a n u a r y it w a s s ig n in g o ff t h e m o n e y th a t w a s p u t fo r th i s p a r ti c u l a r p u r p o s e a s p a id . T h a t is w h y I a m c o n fu s e d C h a ir w i th t h e q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e w e h a d t h e n s ig n e d o ff t h is m o n e y b e c a u s e t h e w o r k t h a t i t w a s m e a n t f o r i t w a s done. 10 ADV GCABASHE: I t h i n k w e s h o u l d m o v e o n M r Th a b e t h e a n d I – a t t h is r a t e I a m f o r c e d to j u s t d r a w c o n c l u s i o n s f r o m t h e r e c o r d a s it s t a n d s b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t s ta y o n o n e p o i n t a ll m o r n i n g . C a n I a s k y o u t h is q u e s ti o n ? I f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 3 7 5 a r e y o u a b l e to t e ll u s w h e th e r y o u k n e w a b o u t a n y o f t h e s e i t e ms t h a t G a te w a y s a y t h e y h a d d o n e w o r k o n . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h in g a t a l l a b o u t th is ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th is r e p o r t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I t h i n k th is i s t h e b e t t e r w a y t o p r o c e e d . A n d t h e n o n t h e v e r y n e x t p a g e t h e r e is a p a y m e n t o f i n S o u th A f r ic a n R a n d s R 1 9 7 8 0 0 0 0 .0 0 . Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h a t th is m o n e y w a s fo r t h a t 20 was paid? M R T H A B E T H E : N o I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: T h a b e th e . Rand. I think this is the easier way to proceed Mr Th e n t h e v e r y n e x t p a g e w e h a v e 3 0 m ill i o n S o u th A fr ic a n R 3 0 9 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 S o u t h A fr ic a n R a n d th a t w e r e p a i d a g a in b y E s ti n a t o G a t e w a y. Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h is w a s fo r ? Page 50 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : N o I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Is th a t t h e b e s t w a y t o – o k a y g o o d . T h e v e r y n e x t p a g e t h e n i s y o u r P h a s e 1 – t h e P h a s e 1 o b l i g a t io n s . W e h a v e d e a lt with those. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W e g o o v e r t h e p a g e a n d w e g e t to a d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 1 3 7 9 w h i c h is d a t e d th e 2 2 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 w h ic h ta lk s a b o u t t h e 2 2 M a r c h s u m m a r y o f c o m p le t e d w o r k s f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y G a t e w a y L i m i t e d . D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h is f e a s i b i li t y s tu d y t h e y a r e r e fe r r i n g t o i s a – 10 r e fe r s to is w h a t i t i s a b o u t ? MR THABETHE: No Chair I do not know because I had not been p r o v i d e d w it h s u c h a d o c u m e n t b e fo r e . ADV GCABASHE: T h e o n ly f e a s i b il it y s t u d y y o u k n o w is t h e O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. B u t t h e – i n t e r m s o f t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y t h e d o c u m e n t I k n o w is t h e o n e th a t w e h a v e r e fe r r e d to . ADV GCABASHE: Correct. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s A D V G C A B A S H E: I a m c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h w h a t – w i th t h a t k n o w l e d g e o f 20 yours. S o o n t h e 2 2 M a r c h t h e r e i s th is in v o ic e f o r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y f o ll o w e d b y h o u r ly r a t e s f o l lo w e d b y a g a in d a t e d A p r il 2 0 1 3 a lis t o f c o n s u l t a n t s w h o a p p e a r to h a v e d o n e w o r k o n t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y ? M R T H A B E T H E : I s e e it C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e o n l y t h in g I c a n s u r mis e a n d th e s e a r e n o t f a c ts – t h e o n ly t h in g I c a n s u r m i s e fr o m t h is is t h a t th e s e a r e th e p e o p le Page 51 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w h o d i d w o r k o n th e f e a s i b i li t y s t u d y a n d w h e n m o n e y b e c a m e a v a i la b le in t h e n e w f i n a n c ia l y e a r th e y w e r e a b le t o p r e s e n t th e ir i n v o i c e . T h a t is t h e b e s t I c a n d o . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o a p p ly y o u r m in d to w h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts m i g h t r e p r e s e n t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y y o u k n o w y o u h a d in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ? MR THABETHE: J a I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. I f t h a t is t h e c a s e o r n o t . B e c a u s e th e s e w e r e th e ir d o c u m e n ts . ADV GCABASHE: T h a t is f in e . I just want to understand what you t h o u g h t y o u r m o n e y w a s b e i n g u s e d f o r. 10 W h a t y o u i n te r r o g a te d . Yo u h a v e n o c l u e a s t o w h a t t h e s e p e o p l e c o u l d h a v e b e e n c h a r g i n g y o u fo r in M a r c h a n d A p r il 2 0 1 3 ? MR THABETHE: C h a i r w e h a d a g r e e d w it h th e m o n w h a t w o r k t o b e d o n e w i t h th e m o n e y a n d t h a t is w h a t w e h a d s i g n e d o ff a n d w e h a d a g r e e d a f t e r d e li v e r y. H o w t h e y h a v e b e e n c h a r g e d b e t w e e n th e m a n d w h o e v e r t h e y h a v e b e e n u s in g t h a t is t h e ir s t o r y b e c a u s e i t is u p t o them to pay or how to pay the people that they have been using. A D V G C A B A S H E : B a c k t o p a g e 1 4 0 3 Mr T h a b e th e . CHAIRPERSON: Back to page? A D V G C A B A S H E : 1 4 0 3 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e C h a ir m a n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e t h e r e M r T h a b e t h e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Good. S o i f y o u l o o k a t a p p l ic a ti o n o f f u n d s p a y m e n t s to c r e d i to r s R 4 9 2 0 0 0 .0 0 . Yo u h a v e s e e n t h a t a m o u n t ? On t h e fa r r ig h t h a n d – in O c t o b e r o n t h e fa r r ig h t h a n d s i d e . P a y m e n ts to Page 52 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 c r e d i t o r s – y o u g o a c r o s s R 4 9 2 5 2 5 .3 3 . Yo u s e e th a t n u m b e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a I s e e i t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: O k a y. Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h a t – w h o t h o s e creditors could have been? M R T H A B E T H E : N o I d o n o t h a v e t h e d e ta ils C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Th e v e r y n e x t i t e m i s a g a i n r e s e r v e d fo r p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t j u s t o v e r 1 m i ll io n . Yo u c a n s e e th a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Th e n w e lo o k a t s o m e s m a ll n u m b e r s . C a n w e lo o k 10 a t d ir e c t o r ’s s a l a r i e s ? R 4 8 3 5 1 .3 8 w h o w e r e t h e s e d ir e c t o r s ? Was t h e r e a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a t h a t t h e r e i s a d ir e c t o r w h o w o u ld b e d r a w i n g a s a l a r y ? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e d ir e c t o r t h a t w a s d o i n g t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n w h ic h w a s in d ic a t e d to u s w a s M r P r a s a d . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o Mr P r a s a d i s – I w i ll s h o w y o u w h e n w e l o o k a t t h e c a n c e l la t i o n a g r e e m e n t a n d th e d o c u m e n ta t io n a tt a c h e d t h e r e . H e w a s e a r n in g R 6 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 a m o n t h . W e c a n g o to t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e . W e – i t is w h e r e w e h a v e t o g o to b u t R 6 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 a m o n t h is w h a t P r a s a d w a s e a r n i n g . H e w a s n o t a d ir e c t o r h e w a s a p r o j e c t m a n a g e r. 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . N o w t h is s a y s d ir e c to r s ’ s a l a r ie s . Who was g e t t in g th is R 4 8 0 0 0 . 0 0 ? M R TH A B E T H E : C h a ir – i t – m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t t h e d ir e c t o r o f t h e p r o j e c t w h o w a s b e i n g p a i d w a s Mr P r a s a d . A D V G C A B A S H E: O k a y. I c a n s a f e ly te ll y o u t h a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n y o u Page 53 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a r e c o m i n g to t o d a y is i n c o r r e c t . D i d y o u i n te r r o g a te t h is w h e n y o u s a w these numbers? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e – C h a i r lik e I h a v e i n d ic a te d y o u s e e I – a s – t h e Vr e d e D a ir y w a s n o t my o n l y w o r k t o in t e r r o g a t e e a c h a n d e v e r y li n e it e m . T h e r e w e r e o ffic i a ls i n th e D e p a r t m e n t th a t w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h e s e a n d e n g a g in g o n a d a i ly b a s is . S o it w o u l d n o t b e m e s i t ti n g e v e r y d a y c h e c k i n g w h o is t h is o n e w h o is g e t ti n g p a i d h e r e b e c a u s e th e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h a ll t h e s e t h i n g s . T h e y h a v e b e e n r e c e iv i n g t h e s e r e p o r ts . S o I – I h e a r C h a ir t h a t I a m b e i n g a s k e d t h i s q u e s t io n 10 b u t I a m n o t i n a p o s it i o n t o r e s p o n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w e r e t h e Ac c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r Mr T h a b e t h e a n d if y o u h a v e g o t p e o p le w o r k in g fo r y o u a n d t h e y d o n o t d o t h e ir j o b p r o p e r ly y o u t a k e r e s p o n s ib il i ty a s t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r, i s t h a t n o t s o ? M R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So… M R T H A B E T H E : As … CHAIRPERSON: So what is this story about other people who were d o i n g – w e r e c h e c k in g i f t h e y w e r e c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t is i t . I f y o u tr u s t e d 20 t h e m e n o u g h t h a t i f t h e y s a id e v e r y th i n g w a s f in e y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d n o t to c h e c k a n d it tu r n s o u t th a t t h i n g s w e r e n o t f in e . Yo u t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r th a t , is it n o t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r I a g r e e . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u c a n n o t h id e b e h in d t h e m . If y o u t r u s t t h e m t h a t t h e y a r e q u a li fi e d to c h e c k c e r ta i n t h i n g s fo r y o u a n d t h e y a r e Page 54 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 c r e d i b le , t h e y a r e tr u s t w o r t h y. I f t h e y s a y t h is is o k a y y o u a r e p r e p a r e d t o t a k e th e ir w o r d w i t h o u t c h e c k in g a n d i t tu r n s o u t t h e r e is a p r o b le m t h e y d id n o t d o t h e ir jo b y o u a r e a c c o u n t a b le . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is w h a t I a m a g r e e i n g w i th C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R T H A B E T H E : M a y b e i t i s n o t c o mi n g a c r o s s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l i t is c o m i n g a c r o s s a s i f y o u a r e r u n n in g a w a y fr o m a c c o u n t a b i li ty o n th e b a s is t h a t y o u h a d p e o p l e u n d e r y o u d o i n g c e r t a i n th i n g s . 10 But they were doing those things because the D e p a r t m e n t a p p o i n te d t h e m a n d if u l ti m a t e ly y o u h a v e g o t t o s ig n o ff a n d y o u t a k e th e ir w o r d a n d th e y s a id c e r t a i n th in g s h a v e h a p p e n e d . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty i f th e y h a v e m is le d y o u . Yo u t a k e t h e r e s p o n s ib il it y i f th e y d i d th i n g s w r o n g – t h e y d i d w r o n g t h i n g s . M R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e o k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I – I t h e n a m g o i n g t o m a k e t h e a s s u m p t io n Mr T h a b e t h e t h a t w i t h a ll t h e o th e r p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o a s s is t t h is c o m m i s s i o n a n d 20 e x p l a i n w h a t th o s e p a y m e n t s m i g h t h a v e b e e n a b o u t? M R TH A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir i t w i ll b e v e r y d i ffic u lt fo r m e t o g o li n e b y li n e e x p l a in in g w h a t d o e s e a c h o n e m e a n . A D V G C A B A S H E: L e t u s m o v e t o t h e n e x t m o n t h l y r e p o r t Mr T h a b e t h e on page 1405. A n d o n p a g e 1 4 0 5 t h e th ir d l in e fr o m t h e b o t to m e s s e n ti a l ly s a y s p a y u s th e R 8 4 m i lli o n t h a t is o u ts t a n d in g . Page 55 of 200 We have 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 put money in our own money in. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry – I am sorry Ms Gcabashe. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 1405? ADV GCABASHE: 1 4 0 5 C h a i r m a n . S o t h is i s th e e x e c u ti v e s u m m a r y a n d th e n o t e s t o t h e f i n a n c ia l r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e i t s a y s M o h u m a M o b u n g . 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d I a m j u s t s u m m a r is in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t. A D V G C A B A S H E : C o r r e c t S ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV GCABASHE: I a m s i m p l y s u m m a r is i n g t h e n o t e s to t h e fi n a n c i a l r e p o r t i n t h e i n te r e s t o f p r o g r e s s C h a i r m a n a n d s a y i n g t h a t a g a i n w h a t is r e f l e c te d h e r e is i n S e p te m b e r R 2 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s p a i d i n . T h e n th e second last paragraph they tell us that they made a further capital c o n tr i b u t i o n o f R 3 .7 5 m il li o n i n O c to b e r a n d a n o t h e r R 8 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i n N o v e m b e r a ll i n v o l v e d t o e n a b l e t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f u r g e n t ly n e e d e d 20 f a r m e q u ip m e n t a n d a c c e s s o r i e s . T h e n i n t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h th e y s a y w e h a v e n o w m a d e a c o n tr i b u t i o n o f R 4 .8 5 m i ll i o n p le a s e f i n d t h a t o u ts ta n d i n g R 8 4 m i ll i o n t h a t y o u – y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e g i v i n g u s . Ar e y o u c o m f o r t a b l e w i th m y s u m m a r y o f w h a t i s w r i t te n h e r e M r Th a b e t h e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 56 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E: L e t u s g o o v e r t h e p a g e . N o w t h a t w i ll – t h o s e w e r e n o t e s t o w h a t is w r i t te n h e r e o n p a g e 1 4 0 6 . S o w e w i ll n o w ju s t g o t o N o v e m b e r b e c a u s e w e h a v e d e a l t w i th O c t o b e r. W e h a v e d e a l t w i th A u g u s t , S e p t e m b e r, O c t o b e r, w e n o w a t N o v e m b e r. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d t h i s is b e f o r e y o u s e c u r e t h e l a n d a t Vr e d e fo r t h is d a ir y, is th a t n o t c o r r e c t M r Th a b e t h e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : G o o d . S o y o u t h e r e s e e t h e R 8 5 0 0 0 0 .0 0 t h a t t h e y 10 s a y E s ti n a s a y s th a t i t p u t in t o t h e p r o je c t. Yo u c a n s e e t h a t n u m b e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e n th e o th e r la r g is h a m o u n t w o u l d b e p r o fe s s i o n a l fees R130 000.00 I assume that you do not know what that was about? MR THABETHE: Ja I would not be able to break down what it did in c l u d e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: B u t – a n d ju s t a b o v e t h a t y o u h a v e g o t R 9 6 7 0 2 . 7 6 f o r a g a in d ir e c t o r s ’ s a l a r i e s . It is double the original amount. The o r i g in a l a m o u n t in O c t o b e r w a s R 4 8 – o v e r R 4 8 0 0 0 .0 0 n o w w e h a v e d o u b l e d i t to R 9 6 0 0 0 . 0 0 . Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h a t th is c o u l d r e p r e s e n t? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : I a m t r y i n g t o g e t t o t h e d ir e c t o r s ’ s a la r i e s . A D V G C A B A S H E: It w a s ju s t a b o v e M r T h a b e th e t h e p r o f e s s io n a l fe e s t h a t I p o in t e d o u t to y o u . D ir e c t o r s ’ s a la r i e s R 4 8 3 5 1 . 0 0 in O c to b e r a n d 3 8 c e n ts . MR THABETHE: I have – I see it. ADV GCABASHE: In November R96 702.76 it doubled. Page 57 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : E s s e n ti a l ly. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: A n d y o u a r e t e ll in g u s y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n a b o u t? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir f o r m e t o b e a b le t o g o b a c k w e m a y n e e d t o g o b a c k t o t h e d e t a i ls o f w h a t th is i n c lu d e s b e c a u s e I – I d o n o t w a n t to s a y I k n o w o r I d o n o t k n o w. B e c a u s e i f w e t h e n b r e a k i t d o w n i t c o u l d g iv e w h a t i s i t r e f e r r i n g t o C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E: I ju s t w a n t t o a s s u r e y o u t h a t t h is a m o u n t d i d n o t r e p r e s e n t w h a t w a s p a i d to M r P r a s a d . S o i f y o u l o o k a t – ju s t l e a v e t h a t d o c u m e n t a s i t i s f o r a m in u t e a n d g o t o R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e B f o r B e r n a r d . N o , n o . N o , n o n o t t h e r e p le a s e Mr. MR THABETHE: Reference Bundle. ADV GCABASHE: B – Reference Bundle B. A n d w e a r e r e a l ly ju s t d e a li n g w i th M r P r a s a d b e c a u s e y o u th o u g h t t h is m o n e y w a s b e i n g p a id t o M r Pr a s a d . I w a n t t o s a ti s f y y o u t h a t h is s a la r y o f R 6 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 y o u w i ll f in d a t p a g e 5 7 6 . 5 7 6 o f R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e B a n d t h e v e r y fi r s t n a m e u n d e r t h e lis t o f e m p l o y e e s a t E s ti n a Vr e d e a s a t A u g u s t 1 2 2 0 1 4 20 is t h a t o f M r P r a s a d w h o is c a l l e d t h e C E O . H e i s n o t a d ir e c to r h e is a C E O a n d h is s a l a r y w a s R 6 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 a s I in d ic a t e d e a r l ie r. Yo u w i ll n o te t h a t t h is d o c u m e n t is p a r t o f th e M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a w h e n t h e E s ti n a c o n tr a c t w a s c a n c e ll e d . M R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir. Page 58 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : I – a n d y o u a r e i n a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h a t i s w h a t t h is r e p r e s e n ts h e r e ? T h is b u n d l e o f d o c u m e n t s . I f y o u w a n t t o y o u c a n g o through it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E: A n d y o u w il l g e t t o p a g e 5 7 6 w i t h M r P r a s a d ’s n a m e a n d a l l t h e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e e m p lo y e d . Mr Prasad was a CEO a c c o r d i n g t o t h is d o c u m e n t a n d h e w a s e a r n i n g R 6 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I m a y ta lk C h a ir. I a m n o t s u r e i f t h i s t w o r e fe r s t o t h e s a m e p e r s o n o r d i ffe r e n tl y b e c a u s e i f I 10 lo o k a t t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r t I d o n o t s e e a C E O ’s s a l a r y. S o i t – t h a t is w h y it is v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r m e to b r e a k i t d o w n . T h e r e c o u ld h a v e b e e n a c c r u e d p a y m e n t . T h e r e c o u ld b e o t h e r th i n g s . S o i t is a v e r y d i ff ic u l t – fo r m e to e x p l a i n . U n l e s s i f t h e y w e r e a C E O in t h e r e p o r t a n d h e r e b e c a u s e t h is w a s a d e ta il e d r e p o r t th a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d fr o m E s ti n a in te r ms o f a c c o u n ti n g f o r t h e f u n d s . H e n c e t h is o n e d o c u m e n t th e n w a s – w a s t h e n d e v e l o p e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir. – M r T h a b e t h e t h e s i m p l e p o in t I a m m a k i n g is y o u d i d n o t m o n i to r th e a c c o u n t i n g o f f u n d s b y th is o r g a n is a ti o n b y E s ti n a . T h is is w h y y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t d ir e c t o r s ’ s a l a r i e s r e p r e s e n ts . 20 T h a t is th e e s s e n t i a l p r o p o s it i o n I a m p u t ti n g t o y o u . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir u n ti l w e h a v e th e d e t a i ls o f w h a t t h e d ir e c t o r s ’ s a la r y i n v o l v e s a n d w h a t p a y m e n t w a s b e in g m a d e i t w il l b e v e r y d i ff ic u l t f o r m e to – t o e x p l a i n . T h a t i s t h e d i ff ic u l ty t h a t I h a v e . A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a b e th e . Yo u s h o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t e x e r c i s e w a y b a c k Mr Yo u w o u l d b e s p e a k in g t o t h e is s u e n o w b e c a u s e y o u h a d Page 59 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 in t e r r o g a t e d t h e i s s u e s . T h a t i s th e s i m p le p o i n t t h a t I a m m a k in g . C a n y o u g o to p a g e 1 4 0 8 p le a s e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h b u n d l e n o w ? ADV GCABASHE: Same oh. CHAIRPERSON: B? A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . I t is a g o o d q u e s ti o n C h a ir m a n w e a r e b a c k to t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r ts . T h e m o n th ly r e p o r t s i t is D C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e w e g o in g b a c k to 1 4 0 6 ? A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w e a r e n o w a t th e n e x t m o n t h C h a ir m a n . 1 4 0 8 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h ic h in c l u d e s D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y i f w e lo o k a t 1409. But I just want to pause on 1408. A n d a g a in th e v e r y l a s t p a r a g r a p h r e a lly r e p r e s e n t s w h a t E s ti n a s a y t h e s e i n t h e ir n o te s th e m o n e y th a t th e y h a v e p u t in t o th e p r o j e c t – th e y h a d . T h e y t e l l u s h e r e t h a t th e y h a v e m a d e a c a p it a l c o n tr ib u ti o n i n c a s h o f R 5 . 7 5 m i ll i o n t h a t is t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h a n d t h e y h a v e e n t e r e d in t o f ir m f in a n c i a l c o m m i t m e n ts t o t h e v a l u e o f R 4 6 9 0 1 8 0 0 . 0 0 in t o th e p r o j e c t . S o t h e s e a r e fi r m f in a n c ia l c o m m i t m e n t s t h e y h a v e m a d e th e y s a y. Th e y c a ll t h is b r i d g i n g fi n a n c e u n til y o u fi n d t h e R 8 4 m i ll io n t h a t 20 w a s c o m m i t te d to t h e p r o j e c t f o r t h e f ir s t fi n a n c i a l y e a r. S o th e y t e l l u s they have ta k e n a total f in a n c ia l exposure of R52 651 000.00. C h a ir m a n t h o s e n u m b e r s c a n b e f o u n d o n t h e v e r y n e x t p a g e . Mr T h a b e th e th o s e w e r e j u s t n o t e s t o th e n u m b e r s th a t a r e th e n o n t h e next page. MR THABETHE: Hm. Page 60 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: W h a t is in t e r e s ti n g a b o u t t h is M r T h a b e t h e a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o k n o w i f y o u p ic k e d t h i s u p a s w e ll w h e n y o u l o o k e d a t t h e s e m o n t h ly r e p o r ts is th e f o l lo w i n g : Yo u h a v e g o t D e c e m b e r, J a n u a r y w i t h t h e a m o u n ts th a t E s ti n a s a y s i t h a d a n o p e n i n g b a la n c e . I t p u t s c e r t a i n c a s h in i n b o t h m o n t h s a n d t h e n i t a ls o s e t s o u t th e p u r c h a s e o r d e r s fo r D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y. Yo u s e e t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : I s e e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s . T h e n t h e y t a l k a b o u t t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o f f u n d s a n d t h e y t e l l u s h o w t h e y a p p li e d t h o s e f u n d s o v e r th a t q u a r t e r. 10 Yo u a r e h a p p y w it h t h a t ? J u s t t h a t t h e y h a v e w r it t e n t h e n u m b e r s d o w n ? M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t c o n c e r n s m e h e r e M r T h a b e th e i s i f y o u l o o k a t a p p l ic a ti o n o f f u n d s a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u a r e a b l e t o e x p l a i n it a t a l l. Yo u h a v e t h e R 3 0 m il li o n g r a n t t h a t t h e y r e c e i v e d fr o m y o u i n J u l y 2 0 1 2 a n d t h e n u n d e r a p p l ic a t i o n o f f u n d s y o u h a v e R 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 under reserved for parlour equipment. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . Yo u th e n h a v e p u r c h a s e o r d e r s t h a t w e r e c o n fir m e d R 4 6 9 0 1 0 0 0 . 0 0 . Yo u s e e t h a t n u m b e r ? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I s e e i t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ar e y o u a b l e Mr Th a b e t h e t o e x p l a i n w h e r e t h a t R 3 0 m il li o n t h a t i s t h e g r a n t r e c e iv e d fr o m D A R D m i g h t h a v e b e e n a p p li e d u n d e r a p p li c a t i o n o f fu n d s ? I s t h e r e s o m e w h e r e h e r e w h e r e y o u t h in k t h a t f ir s t R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s a p p li e d u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g a p p li c a t i o n o f funds? I s m y q u e s t io n c le a r ? I a m ju s t a s k i n g f o r y o u r a s s is ta n c e Page 61 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 h e r e . W e k n o w y o u g a v e th e m R 3 0 mi ll i o n . T h e y h a v e a p p l ie d f u n d s t o t h is p r o j e c t . Can you see anywhere here where those funds were a p p li e d ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I a m tr y i n g t o fi n d t h e a p p li c a t io n o f f u n d . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o a t t h e t o p y o u h a v e C a s h F l o w P o s i ti o n o f E s ti n a P T Y L i m i t e d . Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . Yo u h a v e s e e n t h a t h e a d i n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I s e e y e s . ADV GCABASHE: Below that you have Source of Funds. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : B e l o w t h a t y o u h a v e A p p l ic a t i o n o f Fu n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is w r i t t e n in b l u e o n th e l e ft h a n d s id e . MR THABETHE: O h o k a y I s e e C h a ir. W h ic h r e f e r s to t h a t e n ti r e c o l u m n I s e e i t n o w C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d y o u h a v e i t p e r m o n t h . T h e r e e a c h m o n t h th is is h o w t h e y a p p li e d m o n e y. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th is is h o w th e y a p p li e d f u n d s . MR THABETHE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th is is h o w th e y a p p li e d f u n d s . 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d y o u h a v e a c c u m u l a ti v e t o ta l a t th e e n d . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A ll I a m a s k in g i s a r e y o u a b l e u n d e r th e A p p li c a t io n o f F u n d s c o l u m n s t o f in d t h e u s e o f t h e R 3 0 m i l li o n y o u a d v a n c e d ? T h a t is a ll I w a n t to k n o w. Page 62 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir t h e – t h e A p p li c a t i o n o f F u n d y o u w o u ld b e a b le t o s e e u n d e r R e s e r v e d fo r P a r l o u r I s t il l i t u n d e r C u m u la t iv e s ti ll b e in g R 3 0 m i ll io n . A n d t h e n c o n f ir m e d w h ic h s a y s p u r c h a s e o f o r d e r s I s e e a n a l l o c a t i o n o f – in D e c e m b e r i n a n a ll o c a ti o n i n J a n u a r y. A D V G C A B A S H E : I a m o n ly a s k in g y o u t o i d e n ti f y w h e r e y o u t h in k t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n y o u a d v a n c e d w a s u s e d . I a m s e e k i n g y o u r a s s i s t a n c e i n lo o k in g a t th e s e n u m b e r s a n d i d e n ti fy i n g w h e r e t h e R 3 0 m il li o n y o u a d v a n c e d c o u ld p o s s i b l y h a v e b e e n u s e d l o o k i n g a t t h is c u m u la t iv e s e t of numbers? 10 CHAIRPERSON: I s y o u r q u e s t io n a i m e d e s t a b li s h in g w h e t h e r h e r e a l is e s t h a t a s a t t h e ti m e o f t h is r e p o r t t h a t R 3 0 m i ll io n d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o h a v e a c t u a ll y b e e n u s e d y e t ? A D V G C A B A S H E : I n d e e d s o C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: I – b e c a u s e i t i s a l o t o f m o n e y a n d I ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d if … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I f h e c a n fi n d i t a n y w h e r e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s a i d M r T h a b e t h e th a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e 20 – a t th e – a t p a g e 1 4 0 9 y o u s e e t h a t t h e R 3 0 m ill i o n is p u t th e r e a s reserved for parlour equipment. MR THABETHE: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d t h a t h e y ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a s a t t h e ti m e o f t h is Page 63 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 d o c u m e n t i t h a d n o t b e e n u s e d a s y e t? M R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I c a n s ti ll s e e i t C h a ir o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s id e u n d e r c u m u l a t iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o e s t h a t m e a n th e a n s w e r is y e s ? MR THABETHE: Ye s a c c o r d i n g t o t h is r e p o r t C h a i r I d o n o t s e e t h e a p p lic a ti o n b u t I s e e s t ill t h e a c c u m u l a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. D o e s t h a t h e l p Ms G c a b a s h e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : N o i t – n o t r e a lly C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV GCABASHE: I s i m p l y – m a y b e I s h o u ld r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s ti o n . W e c a n a ll s e e t h a t R 3 0 mi ll i o n r ig h t a t t h e to p . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : U n d e r t h e c u m u la t iv e a m o u n t a g a i n s t g r a n t r e c e iv e d fr o m D A R D . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t w a s r e c e iv e d . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e n t h e y t e l l u s h o w t h e y a p p l ie d th e fu n d s . I f y o u r e m e m b e r t h e v e r y f ir s t m o n t h w e lo o k e d a t w e h a d R 2 9 m il li o n th a t 20 w a s r e s e r v e d . T h e n w e h a d a n o th e r R 1 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t w a s r e s e r v e d . That takes us to that R30 050 000.00. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I a m tr y i n g to u n d e r s ta n d b u t I n e e d y o u r h e lp to u n d e r s ta n d t h is . I am trying to understand whether that R 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o n e s h o u l d s e t o ff a g a i n s t t h e R 3 0 m il li o n y o u p a i d in Page 64 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 J u l y o f 2 0 1 2 . I a m j u s t t r y i n g t o m a k e s e n s e o f t h e fi g u r e s a n d I w a s h o p in g y o u c o u l d h e l p . I s t h a t th e s a m e m o n e y o r is i t a to t a l ly d i ff e r e n t a m o u n t ? T h is R 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 ? M R T H A B E T H E : I a m n o t fo ll o w i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u r e m e m b e r th e R 3 0 m ill i o n t h a t y o u h a d p a id i n July? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u ly 2 0 1 2 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e a t p a g e 1 4 0 9 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is a n a m o u n t o f R 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : R e s e r v e d fo r p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t t h is a m o u n t r e l a te s t o o r i s t h e s a m e a m o u n t o r is c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e a m o u n t o f R 3 0 m il li o n t h a t y o u p a i d i n J u l y o r w h e th e r it is ju s t a s e p a r a t e a m o u n t a l l t o g e t h e r. W h a t i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g n o w ? W h a t 20 w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h e n y o u l o o k e d a t th e s e r e p o r ts ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, i t - i t w o u ld - b e c a u s e I s e e i t s t il l in t h e s a m e c o l u m n b u t a n o t h e r o n e m il li o n h a s b e e n a d d e d b a c k t o 3 0 b e c a u s e i t w a s 2 9 a l l a l o n g . In d ic a t i n g t h a t i t w a s a r e s e r v e d a m o u n t . S o my - my u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t y o u a r e s ti ll r e fe r r i n g to t h e s a m e a m o u n t . ADV GCABASHE: Please go back to page 1-4-0-3 Mr Thabethe. Page 65 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e y o u r 2 9 m i ll i o n t h a t y o u - y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r r e d t o ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I f y o u g o a c r o s s - a n d s o th a t w a s i n J u l y. If y o u g o a c r o s s th e s a m e li n e i t e m y o u fi n d th e 1 0 5 0 0 0 0 . No, no. Oh. Are y o u c h e c k i n g s o m e th i n g e l s e ? MR THABETHE: 1-4-0-3? A D V G C A B A S H E : 1 - 4 - 0 - 3 s ir. 10 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: S o t h e r e is t h e 2 9 m i l li o n th a t y o u h a v e j u s t b e e n t a lk in g a b o u t . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: I f y o u ta k e y o u r f in g e r a c r o s s t o O c t o b e r y o u f in d the 1 050 000 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t g iv e s u s 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: 20 K e e p y o u r fi n g e r th e r e p l e a s e Mr T h a b e t h e a n d g o b a c k to 1 - 4 - 0 - 9 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e r e y o u f in d th a t 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: So I am trying to put these two sets of figures t o g e th e r a n d I a m tr y i n g to u n d e r s ta n d w h e t h e r t h e t o t a l o f t h e 2 9 Page 66 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 m il li o n p lu s t h e 1 0 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s r e s e r v e d t a k e s u s a c r o s s t o t h a t 3 0 m il li o n o n th e o t h e r s id e . MR THABETHE: Ja. ADV GCABASHE: I d o n o t k n o w. I am just asking for your help in u n d e r s t a n d in g th is . It is - i t is m o n e y y o u w e r e in c o n tr o l o f . MR THABETHE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Just hang on. S o is th e q u e s ti o n s t il l w h e t h e r i t i s t h e s a m e a m o u n t . It is th e s a m e m o n e y ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s s ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r T h a b e th e . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I th in k i t i s t h e s a m e m o n e y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : T h e w a y I l o o k a t it . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u b e li e v e t h a t t h a t 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 is t h a t g r a n t m o n e y th a t y o u h a d p a i d i n J u ly 2 0 1 2 ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: That has now being put here reserved for parlour e q u ip m e n t ? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t n o w m y d i ffic u l t y w i t h t h a t - t h i s is w h y I n e e d e d y o u r h e lp in u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e s e n u m b e r s . MR THABETHE: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: A s i f t h a t is t h e c a s e it s h o u ld b e r e fl e c t in g a s a c r e d i t . N o t a s a d e b it i t e m . I t i s m o n e y y o u h a d a lr e a d y a d v a n c e d . S o Page 67 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 h e r e it c a n n o t b e t h a t i t is a n a m o u n t t h a t i s b e i n g d e b i t e d t o y o u . Ar e y o u w i th m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir i f - i f y o u w o u l d r e m e m b e r - if I a m c o r r e c t . J a n u a r y h a s b e e n t h e m o n t h w h e r e w e h a d s ig n e d o ff . ADV GCABASHE: Correct. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t w e a r e h a p p y n o w w it h th e w o r k d o n e . ADV GCABASHE: Correct. MR THABETHE: Which means we could then agree that that money has been spent. 10 ADV GCABASHE: T h e d i ff ic u l t y w i th w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is h e r e t h e li n e i t e m s a y s r e s e r v e d fo r p a r lo u r e q u i p m e n t a n d t h a t i s w h y I s a i d t o you earlier these things do not add up, but I was hoping you would a s s is t u s in u n s c r a m b li n g t h is . It cannot be that money that was r e s e r v e d f o r p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t i s th e s a m e a m o u n t th a t th e n p a i d fo r a l l t h o s e i t e ms o n t h a t A n n e x u r e A th a t y o u s i g n e d o ff . Yo u n e e d t o help us here Mr Thabethe. M R T H A B E T H E : W h a t c o u l d b e th e p r o b l e m C h a ir f o r - f o r t h i s m o n e y t o p a y fo r ? ADV GCABASHE: 20 e q u ip m e n t . This money here was Th a t is w h a t is w r i t te n h e r e . reserved for parlour I a m j u s t r e a d i n g w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e . Yo u a g r e e t h a t is w h a t is w r it t e n h e r e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I a g r e e C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: S o t h e s a m e m o n e y c o u l d n o t h a v e p a id o ff t h e it e m s o n t h e p a g e t h a t h a s y o u r o b l i g a t i o n s . there. Page 1-3-7-8. Page 1-3-7-8. Page 68 of 200 I a m ta k i n g y o u b a c k 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : I - I h e a r y o u C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a v e g o t i t? I - s o i t m e a n s e s s e n ti a l ly y o u h a d t o f in d m o r e m o n e y t o p a y f o r t h e o b l i g a t i o n s t h a t a r e s e t o u t o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 7 - 8 b e c a u s e th e 3 0 m ill i o n o n p a g e 1 - 4 - 1 - 2 w a s r e s e r v e d f o r parlour equipment. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t - t h a t is w h a t w e - r e m e m b e r my - my a r g u m e n t w a s th a t w h e n t h e t i m e c o m e s f o r u s to b e a b le to h a v e t h a t m o n e y a v a il a b l e . I t m u s t b e a v a il a b l e . I n d e e d h e r e w h e n w e s a id t h e w o r k w a s d o n e . T h e n t h e m o n e y w a s m a d e a v a il a b l e f o r u s t o b e a b le 10 t o p a y. N o w w h a t - w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i s th a t th e y t h e n i s s u e d p u r c h a s e o r d e r s t o b e a b le t o c o u n te r t h a t m o n e y b e c a u s e w e h a d a lr e a d y t h e n w e - w e n e e d e d i t b a c k t o p a y f o r w h a t i t w a s m e a n t f o r. S o t h e n t h e y h a d t o is s u e th e i r o w n p u r c h a s e o r d e r s f o r t h o s e - f o r th o s e r e s e r v e d e q u i p m e n t f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o s a y t h is m o n e y - th e ti m e h a s c o m e f o r i t to b e s p e n t w h e r e i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e s p e n t . T h e n t h e m o n e y w a s r e le a s e d fo r t h a t p u r p o s e . ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e i f y o u l o o k a t t h e v e r y n e x t l in e i t e m - c o n fir m e d p u r c h a s e o r d e r s is s u e d . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 20 ADV GCABASHE: R46 901 000. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s a d i ff e r e n t s u m . MR THABETHE: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s n o t r e l a te d a t a l l t o th e 3 0 m i ll io n . MR THABETHE: C h a ir w h a t I c a n e x p l a i n is t h a t t h e 3 0 m il li o n w a s Page 69 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 r e l e a s e d i n J a n u a r y f o r u s to b e a b le t o p a y fo r w h a t i t w a s i n t e n d e d f o r. H e n c e w e r e le a s e d i t . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o . M r T h a b e t h e y o u d i d n o t r e le a s e a n y m o n e y in January 2013. T h e n e x t p a y m e n t y o u m a d e t o E s t i n a t o c o v e r th e 8 4 m il li o n t h a t w a s o u ts t a n d i n g c o u l d o n ly b e p a id i n th e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r. R e m e m b e r w e h a d t h a t d is c u s s i o n . MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir r e l e a s i n g i t m e a n s w h e n I s i g n e d o ff th a t le t t e r t h a t s a y s th e f o l l o w in g w o r k w h ic h w e h a d i n t e n d e d fo r th e 3 0 m il li o n t h a t - th a t w a s o u r r e l e a s e fr o m o u r s id e t o s a y t h a t m o n e y c a n 10 t h e n b e u s e d to p a y f o r t h e w o r k d o n e . I am not saying we made a n o t h e r m o n e y p a id . W e h a d s a id t h is m o n e y w a s fo r th is p u r p o s e . W e a r e n o w s i g n i n g o ff th a t th e w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e i n J a n u a r y. ADV GCABASHE: So if you go to page 1-4-5-2. MR THABETHE: 1-4-5-2. ADV GCABASHE: 1 - 4 - 5 - 2 . Yo u f in d t h e p a y m e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e t o E s ti n a . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e fir s t o n e o f c o u r s e w a s th a t J u ly 2 0 1 2 p a y m e n t t h a t w e h a v e a ll a g r e e d o n . 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d i t is s t il l h a n g i n g i n l i m b o b e c a u s e I s t il l a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r th a t m o n e y p a i d f o r A n n e x u r e A - th o s e o b li g a t i o n s o r w h e t h e r t h a t m o n e y w a s r e s e r v e d f o r p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t . T h e r e is s t ill n o c l a r it y i n m y h e a d , b u t b e t h a t a s i t m a y. T h e n e x t i te m - y o u t h e n i n A p r il 2 0 1 3 p a y R 3 4 9 5 0 0 0 0 . Yo u c a n s e e t h a t n u m b e r. Page 70 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Now my understanding of what you have just said n o w i n y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t y o u w e r e n o w p a y in g f o r th e A n n e x u r e A o b li g a ti o n s . Is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o . I a m n o t s a y in g t h e s o r t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: P l e a s e - t h e n e x p l a in w h a t t h e 3 4 9 5 0 w a s a b o u t - 3 4 m i ll io n . M R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o . I a m o n th e 3 0 C h a ir. T h e ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V G C A B A S H E : O n t h e J u ly 2 0 1 2 3 0 ? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MR THABETHE: W h ic h w a s s i g n e d o ff i n J a n u a r y t o s a y t h e w o r k f o r t h e 3 0 m i ll io n h a s b e e n d o n e . Th a t - th a t i s w h a t I w a s s a y i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s a q u e s t i o n a b o u t t h e 3 4 m i ll io n . ADV GCABASHE: S o w h e n t h e 3 4 9 5 0 0 0 0 w a s b e i n g p a id b y t h e department … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: What did you understand that to be for? MR THABETHE: 20 Th e - t h e 3 4 m i ll i o n C h a ir - th e 3 4 p l u s th e 3 0 p l u s t h e 1 9 i f r e f e r r in g t o t h e 8 4 m il li o n . ADV GCABASHE: W h a t w a s t h a t m o n e y s u p p o s e d to b e u s e d f o r Mr Thabethe? M R T H A B E T H E : T h is w a s t h e m o n e y w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e u s e d f o r th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n w h ic h w a s t h e n in c l u s iv e o f th e p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t , th e tr a c t o r s a n d a l l th o s e t h i n g s th a t h a v e b e e n d o n e . Page 71 of 200 S o it w a s - w h i c h 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w a s r a n g e o f a c t iv i t ie s f o r th is a m o u n t . So it is the money that they h a v e b e e n r e fe r r i n g t o - t o s a y y o u h a v e n o t p a i d t h e 8 4 m il li o n . S o i f y o u a d d t h e 3 4 th e 3 0 p l u s t h e 1 9 r e f e r s t o th e 8 4 m i ll io n . ADV GCABASHE: Ye s , b u t m y q u e s t io n is w h a t w a s t h e 8 4 m il li o n p a y i n g f o r w h e n y o u lo o k a t y o u r m o n th l y - y o u r m o n t h l y s t a t e m e n ts b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t e l li n g y o u h e r e . W e a r e d o i n g t h is w o r k . We are r e s e r v i n g t h e s e o r d e r s . W h a t w a s y o u r 8 4 m il li o n p a y in g f o r ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir to g e t t o t h a t t h e n i t m e a n s w e n e e d t o g o t h r o u g h a ll t h e m o n th ly s t a t e m e n t s fr o m - a n d - a n d b e a b l e t o s a y i n 10 t h is m o n t h t h is w a s u s e d f o r t h a t . T h i s m o n t h w a s u s e d fo r t h a t . S o I w i ll n o t b e a b le t o s a y w h a t b e c a u s e th e r e a r e m o n t h ly s ta t e m e n t e a c h m o n th t h a t s h o u l d b e a b le t o a c c o u n t fo r t h e t o t a l a m o u n t . ADV GCABASHE: Mr T h a b e t h e t h e o n e s y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u g o a l l the way through to February 2013. T h e y t e l l y o u e x a c t ly w h a t t h e y w e r e a p p ly in g th e i r f u n d s … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e f u n d s t h e y w e r e n o w p u t ti n g i n . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t th a t m o n e y w a s b e i n g u s e d fo r. 20 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w e a r e n o t t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h e 8 4 s h e is r e fe r r i n g t o w a s p a i d i n A p r i l . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R T H A B E T H E : It m e a n s th e m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n p a i d i n A p r il s h o u l d c o v e r w o r k u n t il A p r il o r e n d o f M a r c h t o s a y t h e s e a r e th e a m o u n t s t h a t Page 72 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h is m o n e y w a s m e a n t fo r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: A n d - a n d y o u s h o u l d b e - a l s o b e a b le t o s a y t h is w o r k t h a t E s ti n a h a s b e e n d o i n g w a s t h e p a r t th a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a s b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e f o r. I t is n o t y e t t h e - th e p r o c e s s in g p la n t . I t m e a n s p a r t ly s o m e o f th is m o n e y w e h a d to s a y y o u h a d a lr e a d y d o n e o n e , t w o , t h r e e , fo u r, f iv e o n t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f th e d a ir y. W e - i t - i t i s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o h a v e d o n e t h a t w o r k . S o t h o s e - t h o s e is s u e s th a t th e y h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h e 10 p l a n t i n g th a t w a s d o n e i n D e c e m b e r /J a n u a r y w h ic h t h e y h a d a c c o u n te d f o r is t h e w o r k t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e b y th e d e p a r t m e n t . A D V G C A B A S H E : L e t u s ju s t s u m o n t h i s a s p e c t . I w a n t t o m o v e o n t o a n e w a s p e c t M r T h a b e t h e . I f w e g o b a c k to p a g e 1 - 3 - 7 - 2 o f t h e s a m e bundle of documents. 1-3-7-2 and we … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: T h e U S $ 5 m il li o n t h a t w e h a d s a id e a r li e r c a m e t o a b o u t R 4 9 m i ll i o n . Yo u k n o w n o t h in g a b o u t . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e 3 0 m i ll io n t h a t w a s a d v a n c e d i n J u ly 2 0 1 2 y o u 20 b e li e v e w a s p a i d - w a s u s e d to p a y fo r P h a s e 1 o b l ig a ti o n s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u h a v e - n e x t q u e s t i o n . Yo u h a v e n o i d e a a s to w h a t t h e r e s e r v a ti o n f o r p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t a n a m o u n t o f 3 0 m i ll io n m i g h t b e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e 3 0 m i ll i o n t h a t y o u a d v a n c e d in J u l y - t h e r e is n o r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e tw o . I n o t h e r w o r d s b e t w e e n t h e 2 0 - t h e Page 73 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 3 0 m i l li o n y o u a d v a n c e d i n J u l y 2 0 1 2 a n d th is a m o u n t o f 3 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t i s r e c o r d e d u n d e r th e a c c u m u la t iv e a m o u n ts o f th e m o n th ly s t a te m e n ts a s r e s e r v e d fo r p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t . MR THABETHE: C h a ir t h a t m o n e y w a s p u t u n d e r a n i te m c a ll e d r e s e r v e fo r p a r lo u r e q u ip m e n t . B y e n d o f J a n u a r y … A D V G C A B A S H E : W h ic h m o n e y ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e 3 0 m il li o n . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h ic h 3 0 m il li o n ? M R T H A B E T H E : Th a t is - t h a t i s t h e 3 0 m il li o n w e h a d r e l e a s e d a s a n 10 a d v a n c e p a y m e n t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y. MR THABETHE: W h ic h w a s t h e n i n J a n u a r y in d ic a t e d a s s p e n t b e c a u s e w e h a d a l r e a d y s i g n e d o ff th a t t h e - t h a t m o n e y c a n n o w b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r I h a d s a i d w e h a d s a i d t o t h e m w h e n t h a t w o r k is d o n e th a t m o n e y m u s t b e m a d e a v a il a b l e a n d in d e e d w h e n y o u s a id t h e w o r k w a s d o n e t h a t m o n e y w a s r e le a s e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : I f y o u g o to p a g e 1 - 3 - 6 - 8 s a m e - s a m e d o c u m e n t . MR THABETHE: 1-3-6-8. A D V G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u th e r e ? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I a m - I a m t h e r e C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: N o w t h i s l e t t e r i s a l e t te r fr o m G a t e w a y d a t e d 9 J u ly 2 0 1 3 d ir e c t e d t o E s t in a a n d i n t h i s le t t e r e s s e n t ia ll y t h e y a r e s e t ti n g o u t w h a t t h e y h a v e o r d e r e d f o r th e m i lk p a s te u r is i n g p la n t fo r Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m … MR THABETHE: Hm. Page 74 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d th e y te ll E s t i n a th a t t h e y a r e n o w p l a c i n g f in a l o r d e r s w it h th e i r v e n d o r s f o r th e p a s t - p a s te u r is in g e q u i p m e n t in c o r p o r a t i n g t h e d a ta m a n a g e m e n t s y s t e m . Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: T h e y c o n ti n u e t o g iv e a b a n k a c c o u n t - th e y s a y they need a deposit of 20 percent as an advance payment to secure the o r d e r i n th e t h ir d p a r a g r a p h . Th e n th e y g i v e t h e ir b a n k d e ta il s a n d t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h r e a d s : “ U p o n y o u r tr a n s f e r o f th e r e q u e s t e d a m o u n t w e w il l in it i a t e a c t i o n to p l a c e o r d e r s a n d w i ll s e n d y o u a 10 d e t a i l e d p r o j e c t p l a n f o r d e liv e r y a n d i n s ta l la ti o n . ” Yo u s e e t h a t? M R T H A B E T H E : I - I s e e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a t a ll a b o u t t h is n e g o t i a t i o n ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. I - I d o n o t - r e m e m b e r o u r s w a s t o s a y to t h e m w e n e e d p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t a n d t h is is th e p a r lo u r e q u ip m e n t . H o w t h e y h a v e b e e n d o in g - a s l o n g a s t h e y b r in g t h e i te m t h a t w e want. H o w t h e y h a v e b e e n m a n a g i n g a n d h a n d l in g t h a t it w a s E s ti n a that was doing it? 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e I a s k … MR THABETHE: O u r c o m f o r t C h a ir w a s w h e n t h e i t e m c o m e s a n d w e g o a n d c h e c k a n d w e s a y y e s th is is th e i t e m . I t h a s b e e n d e liv e r e d . ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e I a s k y o u b e c a u s e th is i s th e a r e a w h e r e E s ti n a n o w h a d t o p u t m o n e y i n t o t h e p r o je c t . I f y o u lo o k a t th e v e r y n e x t p a g e y o u s e e a b r e a k d o w n o f th e p a s t e u r is in g p l a n t. Page 75 of 200 G o t o th e 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 next page - 1-3-6-9. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. If I - i f I m a y s a y C h a ir w h e n I l o o k a t t h e d a t e o f t h is le t t e r. I t is d a t e d J u ly, t h e 9 t h 2 0 1 3 . By t h is t i m e w e h a d a lr e a d y p a i d th e 8 4 m il li o n . I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e - t h e y h a d m o n e y in t h e ir p o s s e s s io n fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o b e a b l e t o d o t h i s w o r k . Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r y o u h a d ta k e n m e n o w t h r o u g h t h e - t h e t h r e e p a y m e n ts t h a t w e h a d d o n e a n d b y t h is ti m e - t h a t is w h y I d o n o t w a n t to r e fe r t o t h e le t t e r. M y e x p e c t a ti o n w a s t h a t t h e w o r k m u s t b e d e liv e r e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th is is w h e r e my d i ff ic u lt y s i ts M r T h a b e th e … 10 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: A n d w h i c h is w h y I s a i d t o y o u t h e w o r k t h a t is r e fe r r e d t o i n t h i s l e tt e r fr o m G a t e w a y a t p a g e 1 - 3 - 6 - 8 … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: O u g h t t o b e w o r k t h a t w a s p a i d fo r b y E s ti n a fr o m t h e ir c o n tr i b u t io n to t h e p r o j e c t . M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. T h e c o n tr i b u ti o n o f Es t in a h a d n o t s t a r te d . W e w e r e s ti ll b u i ld in g t h e d a ir y. W e w e r e n o t y e t in t h e p r o c e s s i n g plant. A D V G C A B A S H E : M r T h a b e t h e t h is is w h y I w a s a s k in g y o u t o lo o k a t 20 t h e n e x t p a g e b e c a u s e i t e x p l a i n s w h a t is g o in g o n . O n p a g e 1 - 3 - 6 - 8 . H e r e y o u h a v e d a ir y p a s te u r is in g e q u i p m e n t w it h D M B . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: Over the page. M i lk r e c e p ti o n t a n k s , m il k p r o c e s s in g a n d p a c k i n g . B u t t e r a n d g h e e s e c ti o n , u t il i ti e s . it e m s t h a t r e f e r t o t h e p r o c e s s i n g … Page 76 of 200 All of these are 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Oh. A D V G C A B A S H E : O f m i lk th a t h a s b e e n p a s t e u r is e d . M R T H A B E T H E : M y - my a p o lo g ie s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d n o w ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e n I h a v e a n s w e r e d th e w r o n g q u e s ti o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T H A B E T H E : N o w I r e a lis e t h a t th is le t t e r r e f e r s t o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : Pr o c e s s i n g e q u i p m e n t. M y a p o l o g y C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e s o m y b a s i c q u e s ti o n is t h is y o u s a y y o u k n e w n o t h i n g a t a ll a b o u t th is l e t te r a n d w h a t t h e y w e r e p r e p a r i n g t o d o i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is l e t te r. MR THABETHE: I - I w o u l d n o t C h a ir. A ll I k n o w i s t h a t Es t in a w a s s u p p o s e d to s ta r t t h e ir c o n tr ib u ti o n i n t o t h e p r o j e c t i n t h e s e c o n d phase. A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w Mr T h a b e t h e i t is i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o k n o w w h e n a n d h o w E s ti n a i s p u t t i n g i ts o w n m o n e y in t o t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . Is i t n o t ? I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n i m p o r t a n t . 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: A n d th e s e d o c u m e n t s s p e a k t o t h e p r o c e s s i n g plant? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . ADV GCABASHE: My … MR THABETHE: A n d C h a ir t h is is n o t t h e r e p o r t t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t . Page 77 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 I tis - i t is a l e tt e r E s ti n a w r i te s t o … A D V G C A B A S H E : N o , n o . G a t e w a y w r i te s t o Es t in a . I d i d s a y t h a t . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I t is c l e a r ly ti t le d . It is w r i t t e n t o Es t in a . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d a 2 0 p e r c e n t d e p o s it is s o u g h t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u s u r e t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t d id n o t p a y th is 2 0 p e r c e n t d e p o s it ? T h a t is m y q u e s ti o n t o y o u . 10 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h a t - t h a t - i t is a v e r y d i ff ic u l t q u e s t i o n t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u - y o u e i th e r k n o w t h a t t o b e t h e c a s e … MR THABETHE: I … A D V G C A B A S H E : O r y o u d o n o t k n o w i t t o b e th e c a s e . M R T H A B E T H E : I - I d o n o t k n o w i t t o b e t h e c a s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : I t h in k t h a t - t h a t is th e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : T h e c o r r e c t t h in g to d o . ADV GCABASHE: 20 Ar e y o u s u r e that that reserved for parlour e q u ip m e n t l in e i t e m is n o t m o n e y t h a t w a s g o in g to b e s p e n t o n t h is a c c o u n t t h a t s e e k s a 2 0 p e r c e n t d e p o s it ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir w e h a d a l r e a d y s p e n t th e 2 0 - t h e 3 0 m il li o n . T h a t is w h y I c a n s a y I a m s a f e ly s u r e t h a t t h i s - t h a t i s n o t t h e m o n e y s p e n t . I t m i g h t h a v e b e e n u s e d to r e s e r v e b u t a s a d e p a r t m e n t w e h a d s p e n t it b y t h is t i m e . S o i t w o u l d n o t b e th e m o n e y. Page 78 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n i f I m ig h t m o v e o n to t h e n e x t p o in t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a , d o . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . ADV GCABASHE: I n o w ju s t w a n t u s t o v e r y b r ie f ly lo o k a t t h e c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t M r T h a b e t h e . m o n th ly s ta t e m e n ts . We have looked at these Yo u h a v e s a i d y o u r e a l ly k n o w v e r y l i tt l e th e m . T h a t is th e e s s e n c e o f y o u r … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u r e v id e n c e w i t h o n e o r t w o q u a li f ic a t i o n s . C a n I a s k y o u to p l e a s e l o o k a t t w o d o c u m e n ts ? T h e f ir s t o n e is - w e a r e g o i n g b a c k t o R e f e r e n c e F il e B w h e r e Mr P r a s a d ’s s a la r y w a s . T h a t i s the document. I t is a M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t r e a l ly. W e a r e ju s t lo o k in g a t t h a t v e r y b r i e fl y a n d y o u h a v e g o t t h a t M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t - i t i s a t p a g e 5 6 3 - 5 - 6 - 3 Reference Bundle B. CHAIRPERSON: What page again? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: 5-6-3 Chairman. 20 CHAIRPERSON: We are going back to … A D V G C A B A S H E : To R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e B C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : W e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h a t o ta lly d i ff e r e n t t o p ic n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I s e e … ADV GCABASHE: 5-6-3. Page 79 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e s o m e u n a u t h o r is e d c a m e r a s th a t a r e s ta n d i n g t h a t h a v e b e e n p u t i n th e r e . Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Ye s . C o n t i n u e . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o w e a r e n o w lo o k in g a t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r a g r e e m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Th e c a n c e l l a t i o n a g r e e m e n t a n d if y o u g o t o p a g e 5 - 6 - 4 w e a r e l o o k in g a t o b l ig a ti o n s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t . MR THABETHE: Thank you. ADV GCABASHE: A n d I s i m p ly w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d Mr T h a b e t h e h o w E s ti n a a r r iv e d a t t h e a m o u n t o f R 1 0 6 2 5 2 6 5 2 . 10 T h a t q u a n tu m - th a t t o t a l q u a n tu m d o y o u k n o w h o w th e y a r r i v e d a t t h a t a m o u n t t h a t th e y s a i d w a s o u ts t a n d in g ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : P l e a s e e x p la i n i t t o t h e C h a i r m a n . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e - t h e 1 0 6 i n - in c l u d e d t w o i t e ms . T h e o n e p a r t o f t h e it e m w a s f o r t h e - f o r t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t w h i c h t h e y h a d p u t u p w h ic h w e - w e w e r e n o w te r m in a ti n g t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d s a y i n g w e w e r e t a k in g o v e r th e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t a n d a c e r t a i n p o r t i o n o f t h i s m o n e y w a s s ti ll m o n e y t h a t w e w e r e - w e w e r e o w i n g to t h e m i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t t h e y h a d d o n e in t h e d a ir y. S o t h e tw o t o g e th e r m a d e 1 0 6 . 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w I w o u l d li k e t o a s k y o u to g o b a c k t o 5 D w h ic h w e w e r e u s i n g f o r t h e m o n th ly r e p o r ts . D o n o t c l o s e t h i s o n e p l e a s e ? A r e y o u th e r e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: 5D. P a g e 1 - 1 - 7 - 1 w h e r e y o u w i ll fi n d a n d i t i s 1 - 1 - 7 - 1 C h a ir m a n . Page 80 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t h a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . D id y o u s a y D ? ADV GCABASHE: D. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e r e th e m o n th ly r e p o r ts w e r e C h a ir m a n . 1 - 1 - 7 - 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: T h e r e y o u w il l f in d a r e p o r t b y a c o m p a n y c a ll e d D i o m a r t a n d th is is a r e p o r t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d o n 1 2 M a y 2 0 1 7 … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d i t is a n a s s e s s m e n t o f th e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t y o u 10 h a v e ju s t t o l d u s a b o u t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Now they say: “ T h i s - t h i s a s s e s s m e n t r e p o r t is b a s e d o n a s ix d a y v is it a ti o n t o t h e f a r m b y t h e ir te a m . ” Yo u s e e t h a t? I t is w r i t t e n t h e r e . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : “ T h e r e p o r t h i g h li g h ts t h e c u r r e n t s c e n a r i o o f th e p l a n t a n d th u s p o i n ts t o a n e e d fo r a n in t e r v e n t i o n o r c h a n g e i n s tr a t e g y. 20 b u il d in g : Num ber one - th e b u il d i n g n e e d s to b e r e h a b i li ta t e d t o s a ti s f y H A C C A P a n d F o o d a n d S a f e ty C o m p l ia n c e . ” Yo u s e e t h a t? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I s e e i t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : “ B e l o w is s o m e o f t h e r e a s o n s . ” Is w h a t i s w r i t te n h e r e . Page 81 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 “ O n e , t h e a m m o n i a c o o li n g s y s t e m is i n t h e s a m e b u il d in g a n d n o t s e a le d o ff 1 0 0 p e r c e n t . Tw o , i t is n o t b ir d , d u s t o r r o d e n t p r o o f . c e i li n g i n t h e b u i ld in g . in s t a l l e d c o r r e c tl y. m a y o c c u r. Th r e e , t h e r e is n o F o u r, t h e r e d r a i n s is n o t H y g ie n e a n d s a fe t y p r o b l e m s Fi v e , d r a i n p i p e s is m a d e o f P V C a n d w i ll p e r is h w h e n s u b j e c t e d to h o t w a t e r o v e r t i m e . S ix , t h e r e is n o e x t r a c t i o n f a n s i n t h e b u il d in g . S e v e n , b u il d i n g n e e d s 1 0 p e r c e n t n a t u r a l li g h t 10 (windows). E i g h t , th e m il k r e c e p ti o n a r e a m u s t b e o u t s i d e t h e fa c t o r y. N in e , th e c o o l in g r o o m is t o o s m a ll . 1 0 , t h e f r e s h m il k s i lo s m u s t b e o u ts id e w i th t h e ir o w n C I P S y s t e m . 11 , th e p r o c e s s f l o w n e e d s t o b e r e c o n fi g u r e d . T h is is t h e k e y f a c to r in e n s u r i n g t h a t th e p r o c e s s i n g p la n t i s c o n s i d e r e d f o r c o m p li a n c e . ” Over the page. T h e y e la b o r a te o n a ll t h e i n a d e q u a c ie s o f t h a t p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t . I w i ll n o t g o t h r o u g h t h e m i n d e t a il b u t t h e r e a r e v e r y, v e r y i m p o r ta n t p o i n ts t h a t th e y s e t o u t. As t h e y s a y f o r i n s t a n c e 20 r ig h t a t t h e t o p : “ A l l p i p e s n e e d to b e r e p la c e d a s a r e s u l t o f q u a li ty, s iz e a n d w o r k m a n s h i p . ” C h a ir m a n I d o n ’ t i n th e in t e r e s t o f ti m e w a n t t o g o th r o u g h e v e r y fl a w b u t th is r e p o r t i s a n a s s e s s m e n t r e p o r t , M r Th a b e t h e t h a t s e ts o u t a l l t h e t h in g s th a t a r e w r o n g w i th t h a t p r o c e s s i n g p la n t . Page 82 of 200 Hence my 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 q u e s t io n , w h a t w e r e y o u p a y in g R 1 0 6 m il li o n f o r w h e n y o u t o o k o v e r th a t p r o c e s s in g p l a n t ? M R TH A B E T H E : J a C h a ir, t h is r e p o r t – t h e in t e n t i o n o f t h is r e p o r t w a s t o a s s e s s a n d c o n fi g u r e th e p r o je c t b e c a u s e y o u ’ ll r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e p r o j e c t , in te r m s o f t h e d e s i g n a n d th e s p e c i fi c a t i o n w a s d o n e o n th e b a s is o f w h a t P a r a s w o u l d w a n t . c o n tr a c t, we n o w, in 2007 Since we have terminated the r e q u ir e th a t a re-assessment o f … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 2017 you mean? M R T H A B E T H E: 2 0 1 7 m y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir, w e r e q u ir e t h e n a r e - a s s e s s m e n t t o r e - c o n f ig u r e th e – r e m e m b e r i t’s a in c o m p l e te p r o j e c t t h a t w a s h o l d , i t w a s n o t c o m p le t e d t h a t t i m e b e c a u s e t h e c o s t , i f I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l C h a i r i t w a s – a c o m p l e te d p r o j e c t i t w a s g o in g t o c o s t R 2 2 8 m il li o n , t h a t w a s th e i n je c t i o n t h a t E s ti n a w a s t o d o . N o w t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t s it t in g a t 2 0 6 , i t m e a n s i t w a s in c o m p l e t e w h e n w e t e r m in a t e d t h e n t h i s c o m p a n y w il l t h e n g o i n a n d s a y, l e t ’s r e - a s s e s s a n d s a y f o r u s to r e - c o n fi g u r e t h is p r o j e c t w h a t i s i t t h a t w e n e e d t o d o a n d t h a t is w h a t t h e r e p o r t is fo r b e c a u s e th e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w a s d o n e a n d w h e n w e ’r e h a lf w a y w i t h i t w e p u t i t o n 20 h o l d , h e n c e i t is s i tt i n g in t h e t e r m i n a t in g a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I t h in k w h a t M s G c a b a s h e is s a y in g to y o u i s , t h is r e p o r t o r l e t m e r e p h r a s e th a t . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h i s r e p o r t is a c o r r e c t – p r o v i d e s a c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n o f w h a t t h e w r i te r s o f t h e r e p o r t f o u n d o n th e fa r m ? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 83 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Now if one looks at the report, I think Ms Gcabashe is s a y i n g a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s th e r e s e e m n o t h a v e b e e n r ig h t f o r w h ic h y o u m a y h a v e p a i d a n d s h e a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n , h o w c o u l d y o u h a v e p a i d w h a t y o u p a i d i f t h is w a s t h e p o s i ti o n . Now Ms Gcabashe you m u s t p l e a s e i n te r v e n e i f I’ m m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g w h a t I th in k … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n y o u ’v e s u m m a r is e d i t c o r r e c tl y. I f I m ig h t ju s t a d d C h a i r m a n t h a t o n p a g e 11 8 0 y o u g e t a n a m o u n t t h a t th e y 10 b e li e v e w o u ld h a v e to b e p a id t o fi x m o s t o f t h o s e t h in g s b u t t h e s u m m a r y i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MR THABETHE: Ye s . J a C h a ir, t h a t is c o r r e c t , h e n c e I h a v e p u t t h e w o r d i n g , r e - c o n f ig u r e b e c a u s e i f y o u d o a n a s s e s s m e n t o n th e b a s is o f p u t t in g u p a n e w p r o d u c t, r e m e m b e r P a r a s w a s g o in g t o p u t a p r o d u c t o n th e ta b l e , n o w t h i s a s s e s s m e n t w a s n o t o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e p r o d u c t t h a t w a s i n it i a ll y e n v is a g e d . It means for the new product then there s h o u l d b e a r e - c o n f ig u r a ti o n , h e n c e I’ m s a y in g i t d o e s n o t r e f le c t t o b e s a y in g t h is h a s n o t b e e n c o r r e c t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Well you seem to be answering the question with regard to the future as at the time of the report. MR THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d M s G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s t io n , i t’s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e h i s t o r y, th e t i m e b e fo r e t h a t t o s a y, h o w c o u ld y o u h a v e p a i d w h a t y o u p a id i f th is is w h a t th e p o s i t io n w a s a s d e s c r i b e d i n Page 84 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 the report? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, b u t t h e i n t e n t io n is e x a c tl y in t e r m s o f th is r e p o r t , l o o k in g i n to t h e f u tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o y o u d o n ’ t – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r to s a y y o u d o n ’t u n d e r s ta n d b u t s h e is s a y i n g y o u w e r e n o t j u s t i fi e d , y o u w e r e w r o n g t o h a v e p a i d w h a t y o u h a v e p a i d if t h is is w h a t y o u w e r e p a y i n g f o r, w h a t d o y o u s a y ? 10 MR THABETHE: N o it ’s n o t C h a ir, i t ’s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a y y o u w e r e r i g h t t o p a y w h a t y o u p a i d fo r t h i s ? MR THABETHE: Ye s , i n t e r m s o f t h e p la n s a n d th e d e s ig n s i t w a s r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: M s G c a b a s h e I k n o w t h a t y o u r ju n io r – y o u r le a r n e d ju n i o r s a r e a s s i s ti n g y o u b u t I a m k e e n t h a t y o u f o l l o w t h e e x c h a n g e b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t w a n t to m is r e p r e s e n t w h a t I th in k y o u w e r e p u r s u i n g . ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: I n d e e d s o C h a ir. Ye s , s o I t h in k y o u m u s t ju s t g iv e y o u r a n s w e r a g a in M r Th a b e t h e a s to w h e t h e r y o u s a y y o u w e r e ju s ti fi e d t o p a y w h a t y o u p a i d f o r w h a t i s d e s c r i b e d in t h e r e p o r t . MR THABETHE: 20 Ye s , C h a ir, i n t e r m s o f t h e d e s i g n s u n d e r w h ic h t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w a s b e i n g d o n e , it w a s c o r r e c t b u t in t e r m s o f t h e r e c o n fi g u r a t io n c e r ta i n t h i n g s h a d t o b e c h a n g e d b e c a u s e i f y o u r e c o n fi g u r e i t m e a n s y o u a r e m a k i n g c h a n g e s fr o m w h a t y o u h a d o r i g in a l ly w a n t e d t o d o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I ’ m a l lo w i n g M s G c a b a s h e t o d e a l w i t h y o u r a n s w e r. Page 85 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: O n l y b e c a u s e t h e r e p o r t c le a r ly t e ll s u s th a t – a n d I’ m g o in g b a c k t o w h a t I r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d , t h e a m m o n i a c o o li n g s y s te m , w h a t w a s i n s t a l le d w a s i n a d e q u a t e a n d I s e t o u t a l l t h e fa c to r s t h a t [i n d i s t i n c t ] f o u n d , t h e f la w s i n w h a t h a d b e e n in s ta ll e d , t h a t’s w h a t y o u w e r e p a y i n g f o r. W e ’r e n o t ta lk in g a b o u t t h e r e - c o n f i g u r a ti o n M r T h a b e th e , w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u f o u n d a n d t h a t’s w h a t y o u w e r e p a y i n g f o r. CHAIRPERSON: And you say it was correct to make those payments f o r t h in g s t h a t th e s e p e o p l e fo u n d t o h a v e b e e n , a m o n g o th e r t h i n g s , 10 in a d e q u a t e . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, I’ m tr y i n g to t h i n k b e c a u s e t o e x p l a in th is t h i n g I m u s t u s e a n il l u s tr a ti o n a n d I m u s t b e v e r y c a r e f u l in u s i n g t h e ill u s tr a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR THABETHE: Ye s . B e c a u s e i f y o u p u t a p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t to a c h i e v e a s p e c i f ic o u tc o m e y o u h a v e a p a r ti c u la r c o n f i g u r a ti o n , y o u h a v e a p a r t ic u l a r c o n f i g u r a ti o n t h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e m i g h t c o m e a n d d o a n a s s e s s m e n t a n d s a y n o , w h e n I p r o d u c e t h is p r o d u c t, t h i s b e c o m e s my c o n fi g u r a t io n . N o w th a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t i t w il l n o t b e th e s a m e f o r 20 you to achieve a p a r t ic u l a r c o n fi g u r a ti o n , you have your own s p e c i f ic a ti o n a n d s o m e b o d y e ls e t o b e a b l e t o p r o d u c e i s j u s t t h a t I w a n t t o u s e a n il l u s tr a ti o n C h a ir t h a t m a y n o t b e – I m a y n o t b e a ll o w e d to use. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l l e t m e p u t th is , a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t M s Page 86 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 G c a b a s h e ’s c o n c e r n o n th is i s . MR THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . L e t ’s u s e a n e x a m p le . Yo u s a y s o m e b o d y m u s t g e t y o u – m u s t g o a n d l o o k a r o u n d a n d g e t y o u a c a r, y o u w a n t to b u y a c a r. MR THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d th e n th e p e r s o n s a y s I f o u n d a c a r f o r y o u , i t c o s ts R 2 0 . 0 0 o k a y f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e , y o u p a y R 2 0 . 0 0 . Somebody c o m e s l a t e r o n , le t ’s s a y a m o to r m e c h a n ic l o o k s a t t h e c a r a n d s a y s 10 it ’s i n a d e q u a t e fo r th e p u r p o s e f o r w h ic h y o u w a n te d a c a r b u t y o u h a v e p a i d s o m u c h . S o t h e q u e s ti o n i s , h o w c a n y o u s a y it ’s c o r r e c t to p a y w h a t y o u h a v e p a i d w h e n w h a t y o u w a n t e d is i n a d e q u a t e o r is n o t e x a c tl y w h a t i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n . M s G c a b a s h e ? ADV GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n c a n I a c t u a l l y j u s t g o b a c k t o th e s p e c if ic report? CHAIRPERSON: A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s o k a y. A n d t h e b i ts th a t I d i d n o t r e a d b e c a u s e I th o u g h t there was no contest about what was written here. CHAIRPERSON: 20 ADV GCABASHE: Ye s o k a y g i v e h i m c o n t e x t . U n d e r i t e m t w o , p i p e li n e s , ta n k s a n d e q u i p m e n t I ’ m o n p a g e 11 7 2 , “ A l l p i p e s n e e d to b e r e p l a c e d a s a r e s u l t o f q u a l i ty, s iz e a n d workmanship. B ) T h e b o i le r m u s t b e r e p la c e d w i t h a 3 - t o n d ie s e l b o il e r, th e in s t a l l e d b o il e r i s a s a fe ty h a z a r d . It i s w o r th n o t i n g th a t t h is Page 87 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 m o d e l i s n o l o n g e r in m a k i n g f o r y e a r s . C ) T h e ta n k s n e e d r e p l a c e m e n t a s i t is a s r e s u l t o f s u it a b i li ty, p o o r q u a li ty a n d f o o d u n s a f e ty. D) Va lv e s , ta p s a n d p u m p s a r e o u t d a t e d a n d m a y f a c e a c h a l le n g e g e tt i n g s p a r e s . E) J o in t w e l d i n g n e e d s t o b e d o n e c o r r e c tl y, i n s o m e in s t a n c e s a n o r m a l s t e e l p i p e is w e ld e d t o a s ta in l e s s s t e e l in s t e a d o f u s i n g a s u i t a b l e j o i n t . P a s t e u r i s e r - t h e m a c h i n e is n o t s u it a b l e f o r p a s t e u r is i n g w i ll 10 n o t p a s s th e p r e s s u r e t e s t a n d is b e n t . It a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n r e - b u il t a n d p o o r l y i n s t a l le d . 4 ) S e p a r a t o r – th e e q u ip m e n t n e e d s r e p l a c e m e n t th e i n s t a l l e d m a c h in e r y is a n o l d m a n u a l m o d e l t h a t is n o t s u i ta b le f o r la t e s t o p e r a ti o n s . 5 ) C le a n i n g in p l a c e s y s t e m – t h e t a n k s is p it t e d a n d r u s t e d o n th e i n s i d e , it i s a d o w n t o d r a i n s y s t e m th a t is n o t s u i ta b l e f o r a fr e s h m il k fa c t o r y. s y s te m s and c ir c u l a ti o n 20 on three the I t s t il l n e e d s th r e e c o m p l e te d o s in g c o n d u c ti v i ty tanks to c o n t r o ls . control the Th e r e s tr e n g t h is no of the c h e m ic a ls , t h e d o s i n g p i p e is to o b i g f o r t h e s y s t e m . 6) S a c h e t f il l e r – t h e m a r k e t d o e s n o t r e s p o n d v e r y w e ll to t h e s a c h e t m il k u n i t s , a b o t t li n g m a c h i n e w o u l d b e a b e t t e r o p t io n . 7) Ammonia cooling – system needs replacement, condenser o n t h e o u ts i d e is o l d te c h n o l o g y. Page 88 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 8) A ir c o m p r e s s o r – n o a ir li n e s i n th e fa c t o r y, t h e s y s t e m s t il l n e e d s a ir d r y e r a n d a ir r e c e iv in g t a n k s fi t t e d . 9) Laboratory - th e r e is a n a ll o c a te d s p a c e f o r la b o r a to r y b u t n o s e t- u p y e t . 1 0 ) H o m o g e n is e r – m u s t s til l b e b o u g h t . 11 ) F l o w m e tr e s – m u s t s t il l b e b o u g h t . 1 2 ) S t e a m a n d c o l d w a te r li n e s m u s t b e in s u l a t e d . 1 3 ) H e a t e x c h a n g e r s – th is n e e d s p r e s s u r e te s ti n g . 1 4 ) M a n u f a c t u r i n g d a t e s , i t i s a v e r y – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n i t is 10 v e r y d i ffi c u l t to d e t e r m i n e t h e a g e o f t h e e q u ip m e n t . A ll o f t h e m a n u f a c t u r in g d a t e s a n d n a m e s a n d i n fo r m a t io n w a s r e m o v e d fr o m t h e e q u ip m e n t . R e c o m m e n d a t io n s – r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w ill b e i n li n e w i th a d d r e s s i n g t h e a b o v e c o n c e r n s o r p r o b l e m a r e a s , a d d i t io n a l q u e s t io n s a r is i n g , 1 ) H o w m u c h m i lk is t h e f a c t o r y g o i n g t o p r o c e s s p e r d a y. 2 ) P r o d u c t l in e . 3 ) H o w is th e m ilk g o in g t o b e tr a n s p o r te d f r o m th e mi lk in g p a r l o u r t o th e fa c to r y ? 20 4 ) Is t h e r e s u ff ic ie n t w a t e r f o r t h e f a c t o r y, f o r e a c h o n e l i tr e o f m i lk 3 . 5 li tr e s o f w a te r is n e e d e d f o r c l e a n i n g . 5 ) I f m ilk is b o u g h t f r o m s m a ll e r o r o th e r s u p p l ie r s h o w w i ll i t b e c o ll e c t e d a n d tr a n s p o r t e d ? 6 ) Is t h e r e a c o m p r e h e n s i v e m a r k e ti n g s t r a t e g y i n p l a c e ? I w o u l d lik e y o u to a c c e p t M r T h a b e th e t h a t t h e i s s u e s fl a g g e d Page 89 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 c e r t a i n l y o n p a g e o n e a n d t w o , t h a t ’s 11 7 1 a n d 11 7 2 s p e a k t o t h e q u a li ty o f w h a t y o u w e r e s o l d . I – m y c o n c lu s i o n i s , y o u w e r e ta k e n f o r a r id e , t h a t y o u k n e w th a t y o u w e r e t a k e n fo r a r i d e i s a c o m p le t e l y d i ff e r e n t is s u e , b u t fr o m w h a t I’ m r e a d in g h e r e , w h a t t h e y i n s ta ll e d i s n o t w h a t y o u e x p e c t e d t h e m to in s ta ll . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, I w o u l d n o t d i s p u t e w h a t s h e is s a y i n g , w h a t w e h a d t o p a y w a s t h e w o r k d o n e o n t h e g r o u n d u p to th a t s ta g e . W e l a t e r w h e n – I ’ m t r y in g t o g e t t h e c o r r e c t n a m e h e r e , t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n th e n d i d t h is a s s e s s m e n t th r o u g h t h e a g e n t 10 t h a t th e y h a d a p p o in t e d t o b e a b le t o g e t a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g . T h e q u e s ti o n t h a t I s t il l w a n te d to k n o w, th e d e t a i ls o f t h e q u e s t io n w a s , w h a t is t h e v a lu e o f w h a t w a s s t a n d i n g o n t h e g r o u n d v e r s u s w h a t w a s p a i d b e c a u s e t h e r e p o r t t a lk s to t h is s ti ll n e e d s t o b e c o r r e c t e d , i t d id n o t c o m e t o a s t a g e w h e r e i t s a y s b u t w h a t is c u r r e n t ly s t a n d in g h e r e is o f t h is v a lu e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l M r Th a b e t h e t h e r e p o r t s e e m s t o m e t o s h o w t h a t w h a t w a s p r o v i d e d t o t h e f a r m o n t h e b a s is o f t h e a r r a n g e m e n t th a t y o u h a d w i t h E s ti n a w a s i n a d e q u a te i n c e r t a i n r e s p e c ts , w a s o f lo w q u a li ty i n c e r t a i n r e s p e c t s a n d w a s n o t a c c e p ta b l e a n d s h o u ld n o t h a v e 20 b e e n p r o v id e d a c c o r d in g t o t h e a u th o r s o f t h i s r e p o r t. Th e y e v e n r e fe r t o a n e q u i p m e n t w h e r e t h e y s a y it w a s r u s t e d , n o w I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s e q u ip m e n t o r p i p e s o r w h a te v e r b u t t h e y r e f e r t o t h a t a n d I r e c a ll q u i te c o r r e c tl y – I r e c a ll q u it e c l e a r l y t h a t s o m e ti m e b a c k t h a t t h e r e was a witness who gave evidence here, I can’t remember who it w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. Page 90 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Basson. Mr B a s s o n w h o s a i d , h e l o o k e d a t th e e q u i p m e n t t h a t h a d b e e n b r o u g h t o n – t o th e f a r m , I t h i n k f r o m I n d i a a n d h e r e a li s e d t h a t i t w a s r u s te d , i t w a s n o t n e w e q u ip m e n t t h a t w a s b e in g b r o u g h t , h e g a v e t h a t e v i d e n c e a n d t h i s r e p o r t s e e m s t o b e c o n s is te n t o r s e e ms t o corroborate, at least in part, that version. So do you accept, and I t h i n k y o u d i d a c c e p t t h a t w h a t t h e r e p o r t s a y s , t h e p e o p le w h o p r e p a r e d t h e r e p o r t fo u n d , is w h a t w a s t h e r e . I n o t h e r w o r d s , i t’s n o t lik e t h e y ju s t m a d e t h in g s u p , is th a t r i g h t, d o y o u a c c e p t th a t? 10 MR THABETHE: C h a i r I a c c e p t t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R TH A B E T H E : T h e o n ly d i ffi c u l ty I h a v e is t o p u t m o n e t a r y v a l u e in t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l w e m i g h t d e a l w i t h t h a t l a t e r. Th e q u e s ti o n is , h o w d i d it c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u a l lo w e d E s ti n a t o d o t h i s a n d y o u d id n o t p ic k i t u p y o u r s e l f , w h e n I s a y y o u r s e l f , I m e a n y o u a s t h e Department and of course you were the Head of Department, how did it c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u d id n o t e n s u r e t h a t i f t h e y p r o v i d e d y o u w it h w r o n g t h i n g s , w r o n g e q u i p m e n t, l o w q u a l it y e q u i p m e n t , h o w d id i t c o m e a b o u t 20 t h a t y o u a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t d i d n o t p ic k i t u p ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir w h e n w o r k is d o n e a n d w e h a d a ll a g r e e d th a t t h e p r o c e s s i n g p la n t i n i t ia ll y w a s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f E s ti n a t o s e t u p . I t o n ly c a m e w h e n w e w e r e t e r m i n a ti n g t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e t h e n a ls o t a k i n g o v e r t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t a n d d u r in g t h a t ti m e , w e w e r e t h e n lo o k in g a t , t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d h o w m u c h h a s b e e n p a i d s o t h a t w e a r e Page 91 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a b l e th e n t o t a k e i t o v e r o u r s e lv e s . T h a t ’s w h a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t , a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e . I ’ m n o t d i s p u ti n g th e r e p o r t C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h e r e p o r t is a c tu a lly s a y i n g , f o r u s t o b e a b l e to m o v e f o r w a r d t h i s is w h a t w e n e e d t o fix b u t a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e , t h a t is w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d a n d p a i d f o r. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e r e p o r t is a ls o i n e ffe c t s a y i n g , th is is w h a t h a s b e e n w r o n g i n th e p a s t , y o u w a n t m e to c l a r i f y t h a t? I ’ m s i m p ly s a y in g in o r d e r f o r i t t o te ll y o u w h a t y o u n e e d t o a tt e n d t o , g o i n g f o r w a r d , i t t e ll s y o u w h a t t h e p o s i t io n is a n d w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n m u s t 10 h a v e b e e n fo r s o m e t i m e , y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? M R TH A B E T H E : J a C h a ir, t h e d i ffi c u l ty i s , i f t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t w a s b e i n g b u i l t f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t I w o u l d a g r e e b u t th is p r o c e s s i n g p la n t t h e y w e r e b u i ld in g – i t w a s th e i r o b l ig a ti o n t o b u i l d i t. N o w th e r e w o u ld n ’t b e a n y r e a s o n f o r th e m t o s h o r t c h a n g e t h e ms e lv e s , t h a t w o u l d b e m y t h in k i n g a s I a m s i t ti n g C h a ir t h a t y o u b u i l d a h o u s e f o r y o u r s e l f a n d y o u a r e s h o r t c h a n g i n g y o u r s e l f i n t h e b u il d in g i n s te a d o f d o i n g i t p r o p e r ly y o u d o n ’ t d o i t th e c o r r e c t w a y a n d l a t e r t h e n i t w i ll c a t c h u p with you. CHAIRPERSON: 20 M s G c a b a s h e I l e a v e y o u to fo ll o w - u p o n t h a t if y o u w a n t to . ADV GCABASHE: I s i m p ly w a n t t o m a k e th e p o in t , C h a ir m a n t h a t , a s t h e C h a i r m a n h a s c o n s is te n tl y p o i n te d o u t t h is w a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t ’s p r o j e c t , i t’s y o u r p r o j e c t i t’s n o t E s ti n a ’s p r o j e c t s o t h e y ’r e s h o r t c h a n g in g th e D e p a r t m e n t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y i t’s y o u r f a c il it y, t h e s e a r e y o u r b e n e fi c i a r i e s w h o a r e g o in g t o b e 5 1 % o w n e r s o f t h i s f a c il i ty. Page 92 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 S o t h e D e p a r t m e n t is b e i n g s h o r t c h a n g e d b y t h i s s u b - s t a n d a r d w o r k , s u b - s t a n d a r d m a t e r i a l th a t ’s b e e n b r o u g h t in t o t h e p r o j e c t b y E s t i n a , w o u ld y o u a g r e e w i th m e ? MR THABETHE: J a C h a i r I a g r e e t h a t – b e c a u s e w e w e r e p a r ty s h a r e h o l d in g i n t o t h e p r o j e c t t h a t th e y w e r e p u tt i n g u p a n d i f i t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n d o n e p r o p e r l y i t m e a n s t h e b e n e fic i a t i o n a ls o w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o m p r o m is e d . ADV GCABASHE: B u t C h a ir m a n i f I m i g h t c l o s e , I k n o w it ’s lu n c h ti m e b u t ju s t w i th a le t t e r M r T h a b e th e I w a n t t o r e f e r y o u t o i n r e fe r e n c e 10 B u n d l e E , w e h a v e n o t u s e d i t t o d a y, s o i t’s a n e w o n e , E f o r e g g s , p a g e 1 6 4 3 . Th is is a l e tt e r w r i t te n t o t h e M a n a g i n g D ir e c t o r a t E s ti n a b y y o u r s e l f M r Th a b e t h e , i t ’s d a t e d th e 1 2 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . N o w th e 1 2 t h o f A u g u s t w a s t h e t e r m i n a t io n d a t e i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y. MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: “Dear T h is i s w h a t y o u w r i t e , S ir, hand-over of subsequent to th e Department of A g r ic u l t u r e a s s e ts c a n c e l la t io n and and of Rural b i ll i n g methods agreement between D e v e lo p m e n t and yourselves. 20 1) K in d ly refer to the c a n c e ll a ti o n agreement s ig n e d b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d y o u r s e lv e s d a te d A u g u s t 1 2 , 2014. 2 ) F u r th e r, p l e a s e r e f e r to t h e p h y s ic a l h a n d - o v e r o f a s s e ts t o t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n t h r o u g h t h e Department on August 12, 2014. Page 93 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 3 ) P l e a s e b e i n f o r m e d th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t is s t il l i n t h e p r o c e s s o f p r o c e s s i n g y o u r p a y m e n ts a s p e r th e p a y m e n t s c h e d u l e i n d ic a te d i n th e a g r e e m e n t . 4 ) W e a r e a ls o i n th e p r o c e s s o f f i n a li s i n g t h e e n ti ty t h a t w il l u l ti m a t e ly b e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r r u n n i n g t h e p r o j e c t . 5 ) A s s u c h w e w o u l d r e q u e s t y o u n o t t o r a is e t h e ta x i n v o ic e in p a r t o r f u l l fo r t h e h a n d - o v e r o f t h e a s s e ts u n ti l th e c o m p le t e p a y m e n ts , a s p e r t h e a g r e e m e n t is tr a n s fe r r e d t o y o u r a c c o u n t . A s s o o n a s t h e p a y m e n t is d o n e , y o u m a y 10 r a i s e a t a x i n v o i c e f o r t h e f u l l v a l u e o f t h e p r o j e c t t o th e e n t i ty th a t w il l b e i n ti m a t e d t o y o u a t th e ti m e . 6 ) I n th e i n te r i m th e h a n d - o v e r o f a s s e ts m a y b e e ff e c t e d b y a hand-over document. T h i s is y o u r l e t te r. MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. P l e a s e e x p l a i n p a r a g r a p h f iv e to t h e C h a ir m a n , I couldn’t understand it? MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h fi v e is a c t u a ll y s a y i n g , y o u c a n ’ t c la i m t a x fr o m u s u n t il y o u h a v e m a d e a ll t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts y o u c a n o n ly 20 – b e c a u s e y o u s e e i f t h e y g i v e u s a t a x i n v o ic e , i t w il l m e a n th a t w e m u s t a l s o p a y t h e t a x in t o th e m a n d w h e n th e n I d r a f t e d t h i s l e t t e r w e h a d a g r e e d w it h t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s t h a t w e m u s t ju s t m a k e s u r e f o r n o w t h a t t h e y d o n o t r a i s e t a x t h r o u g h u s in t h is r e g a r d . T h a t w a s t h e in t e n t io n t h a t th e y s h o u l d n ’ t , i n t h e i n v o i c e ta x u s . ADV GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n w h e n e v e r M r Th a b e t h e b r in g s t h e S t a te Page 94 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A d v is o r s in I g e t v e r y w o r r i e d . O n th a t n o te , m i g h t w e t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll p u r s u e t h is m a t t e r a f t e r l u n c h ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , i t’s one o ’c l o c k , w e ’l l ta k e the lunch a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t tw o . W e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e . ADV GCABASHE: Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr Thabethe we ended up w i t h p a g e 1 6 4 3 o f R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e E w h ic h i s t h e l e tt e r th a t y o u h a d 10 w r i t t e n t o Es t in a o n th e 1 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 a n d y o u w e r e t e l li n g u s w h a t paragraph 5 meant. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d I i n d ic a t e d t h a t I w o u ld w a n t t o t a k e i s s u e w it h y o u o n y o u r i n te r p r e t a t i o n o f p a r a g r a p h 5 . MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: O k a y C h a ir. A n d I w a n t to p u t to y o u th a t m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i n p a r a g r a p h 5 is t h e f o l lo w in g : “ D o n o t r a is e th e ta x i n v o ic e i n f u l l o r in p a r t . ” Is w h a t y o u s a y. 20 N o w a t a x i n v o ic e r e a lly i s s i m p ly a n in v o ic e – a f o r m a l in v o ic e to p u t it c o r r e c tly. CHAIRPERSON: Okay ADV GCABASHE: I t h a s y o u r a d d r e s s a n d t h e o th e r p a r ti e s a d d r e s s . I t h a s g o t a VAT n u m b e r b o th s u p p l i e r a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o is p r e p a r i n g it a n d y o u h a v e i t e m is e d b il li n g o n a VAT i n v o ic e . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. Page 95 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E: O n a t a x i n v o ic e a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e in c l u d e d y o u r VAT. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: T h a t is a l l . A n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n i t i s c a ll e d a t a x in v o ic e – y o u s e e w e a d v o c a te s h a v e to p r e p a r e th e s e a l l t h e t i m e . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: W h e n w e b i ll . W e h a v e t o b il l u s i n g t h is f o r m because we are – we pay tax on the basis. MR THABETHE: Hm. 10 ADV GCABASHE: O f t h e s e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e s u b m i t . S o a l l i t is r e a l ly is t h a t y o u a r e f o r m a l ly s t a ti n g u n e q u iv o c a l ly th a t th e s e a r e t h e c h a r g e s o r t h e s e a r e t h e c o s ts th a t y o u a r e c l a i m i n g . So you would a g r e e w i t h t h a t b r o a d in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f w h a t a t a x i n v o ic e is ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a – C h a ir th e – I w a n t t o p u t i t t h e c o r r e c t w a y. T h e le t t e r t h a t I h a d s i g n e d a ft e r t h e c a n c e l la ti o n w e h a d t o d o a v e r y c a r e fu l w o r d i n g o f th is l e t t e r a n d I w a s a s s i s te d b y th e s ta t e la w a d v is o r s i n th e d r a f t in g o f t h is l e t te r. M y u n d e r s t a n d in g m i g h t n o t b e e n t ir e ly b e t h e c o r r e c t o n e i n e a c h a n d e v e r y p a r a g r a p h b u t t h is w a s t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t w e w i ll t h e n i s s u e t h e m w i t h t h is l e t te r a n d – 20 a n d th is is th e l e t te r t h a t t h e y w il l th e n u s e a s a b a s i s o f c o n c l u d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u m u s t t e ll m e w h e t h e r y o u a g r e e w i t h in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f p a r a g r a p h 5 t h a t M s G c a b a s h e h a s p u t to y o u a n d i f y o u d o n o t w h y y o u a r e n o t a b l e to a g r e e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : S o w it h y o u r l e a v e C h a i r ma n m a y I s t a r t a g a i n ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 96 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : M r T h a b e t h e s h a l l I ju s t s t a r t a g a i n ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : B e c a u s e I a m a c tu a lly b r e a k i n g d o w n . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e d i ff e r e n t e l e m e n ts o f p a r a g r a p h 5 . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E: So as I w a s s a y in g I w a s g i v i n g y o u m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f a t a x i n v o i c e . Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t a g r e e w i t h t h a t . I t 10 is a f o r m a l i n v o ic e . MR THABETHE: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t h a s c e r t a in d e t a ils o n it . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u a r e s a y in g d o n o t p r e s e n t – t o r a i s e a t a x in v o ic e m e a n s t o p r e s e n t i t . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: Are you – do you agree with me? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a g r e e . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o d o n o t p r e s e n t y o u r t a x i n v o i c e i n f u l l o r in p a r t 20 f o r t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h e a s s e ts . S o I a m p a u s in g h e r e . u n d e r s t a n d in g i s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h e a s s e t s . MR THABETHE: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: Do not present your tax invoice in full or in part. M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : A m I r i g h t a b o u t th a t ? Page 97 of 200 My 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Okay I hear you yes. A D V G C A B A S H E : W o u ld y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: And the reason I say that is because if you go to p a r a g r a p h 3 I j u s t w a n t t o g i v e c o n t e x t . T h e s a m e le t t e r p a r a g r a p h 3 you say: “ P l e a s e b e i n fo r m e d t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t is s ti ll i n t h e p r o c e s s o f p r o c e s s in g y o u r p a y m e n ts a s p e r t h e p a y m e n t s c h e d u l e i n d ic a t e d in t h e a g r e e m e n t . ” 10 Ye s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E: J a . N o w w e k n o w t h a t t h e p a y m e n t s c h e d u le i n t h e a g r e e m e n t is th e o n e t h a t s e t s o u t t h a t th e R 1 0 6 m i ll io n is d u e fo r s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d . C a n I ju s t t a k e y o u b a c k to th a t a g r e e m e n t ? C a n c e ll a ti o n A g r e e m e n t . Th e C a n c e l l a t i o n Ag r e e m e n t is i n B u n d le b , B f o r B e r n a r d o r B r e a d a t p a g e 5 6 3 – B l i t tl e b n e ? 5 6 3 a n d t h e n w e f in d t h e o b li g a ti o n s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o n 5 6 4 . B f o r B e r n a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t to o m a n y o f t h e s e f il e s t h a t a r e o p e n . A D V G C A B A S H E : F il e s o p e n C h a ir m a n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H e r e n o w i n fr o n t o f m e M s G c a b a s h e s o I a m c l o s i n g t h e m . I f a n d w h e n w e n e e d t o g o b a c k to t h e m w e w i ll h a v e t o … ADV GCABASHE: Indeed so but we are almost done Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I h o p e y o u w ill n o t h a v e t o o p e n s o m e o f t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 98 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: B for Bernard. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h a t p a g e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : P a g e 5 6 3 to 5 6 4 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 56 A D V G C A B A S H E: 3 i s t h e fr o n t c o v e r o f th e a g r e e m e n t , th e C a n c e ll a ti o n A g r e e m e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Oh ADV GCABASHE: B for Bernard. 563. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h i s is t h e R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e . 10 ADV GCABASHE: 563. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e S ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I w a s l o o k i n g a t th e R e p o r ts o n e . A D V G C A B A S H E : 5 6 3 is t h e c o v e r p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t a k e t h is o n e b a c k . ADV GCABASHE: Ye s I t h in k y o u c a n ta k e t h e R e p o r ts B u n d l e a w a y c o m p le t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d s o t h e p a g e th a t w e w e r e – t h a t d e a ls w i th t h e 20 o b li g a ti o n s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t is 5 6 4 C h a ir m a n . And we are at p a r a g r a p h 1 . 2 t h e r e o f Mr T h a b e th e w h ic h s p e a k s o f v a l u e f o r m o n e y. T h i s is w h e r e w e s t a r t e d th is d is c u s s i o n e a r l ie r o n . Why did you pay t h e m t h is R 1 0 6 m i ll io n ? W e l l v a l u e f o r m o n e y. A n d w e d e a l t w i th D i o m a r t n o w w e a r e h e r e – g o o d . S o h e r e y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u a r e u n d e r t a k in g t o p a y th e m R 1 0 6 2 5 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 Page 99 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s o m e w h e r e in t h a t r e g i o n i n t h e f o l l o w i n g a m o u n ts . R 3 0 m il li o n o n o r b e f o r e t h e 3 0 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 4 . 2015. R 7 6 2 5 2 0 0 0 .0 0 p l u s b y th e 3 0 J u n e A n d th e n y o u s a y o f c o u r s e t h i s p a y m e n t is s u b j e c t to t h e a v a i la b ili t y o f f u n d s . A n d th e n s h o u l d f u n d s n o t b e s u ff ic i e n t y o u w il l r e s c h e d u le . A n d o v e r t h e p a g e y o u th e n p u t o u t t h e s c h e d u l e . J u n e 3 0 t h 2 0 1 5 , 3 0 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 , 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 6 i s w h a t y o u p r o p o s e . S o t h is is I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p a y m e n t s c h e d u le ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E: O k a y d o n o t lo s e t h a t p a g e . W e a r e n o w g o in g b a c k t o y o u r l e t t e r b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r I a m tr y in g to w o r k th r o u g h m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r l e t te r th a t i s i n B u n d l e e a t p a g e 1 6 4 3 . Th a t is w h e r e w e w e r e , b a c k t o y o u r le t t e r to E s ti n a . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E: S o y o u s a y w e a r e p r o c e s s i n g y o u r p a y m e n ts , is what you say in paragraph 3. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e n i n 5 y o u s a y h o l d o n w it h y o u r t a x i n v o i c e in r e s p e c t o f t h e h a n d o v e r o f a s s e ts . 20 MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: O k a y. U n t il t h e c o m p le t e p a y m e n ts a s p e r t h e a g r e e m e n t is t r a n s f e r r e d i n to y o u r a c c o u n t . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y is , a ll o w u s t o p a y y o u t h e R 1 0 6 m i ll io n . A f t e r w e h a v e p a i d y o u t h a t R 1 0 6 m ill i o n o n c e th a t Page 100 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 f u ll p a y m e n t h a s b e e n tr a n s f e r r e d to y o u r a c c o u n t th e n t h e n e x t s e n te n c e r e a d s ? “ A s s o o n a s t h e p a y m e n t is d o n e y o u m a y r a i s e a t a x in v o ic e f o r t h e f u l l v a l u e o f t h e p r o je c t. ” M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: “ To t h e e n t it y t h a t is g o i n g t o b e ta k i n g o v e r. W e w il l t e ll y o u w h o th o s e p e o p l e a r e . ” M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : A m I c o r r e c t ? R i g h t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o d d in g Mr T h a b e th e . MR THABETHE: I am… CHAIRPERSON: T h e – th e r e c o r d w i ll n o t c a p tu r e th e n o d d i n g . Yo u a g r e e w i t h t h e s u g g e s ti o n s M s G c a b a s h e h a s j u s t m a d e ? MR THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. I am nodding because I am not sure w h e t h e r I – I u n d e r s t o o d i t v e r y w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d o n o t n o d i f y o u a r e n o t s u r e if y o u u n d e r s t o o d . Te ll h e r y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o l e t u s g o b a c k t o – w a i t Mr T h a b e t h e . I a m j u s t – 20 I h a v e j u s t b r o k e n it u p b u t I d o w a n t y o u t o t e l l m e w h e r e I a m m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u r s e n te n c e . MR THABETHE: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : S o I w o u ld r a t h e r y o u s a i d y e s o r n o th a n n o d . A n d if y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d p l e a s e j u s t i n d ic a t e a s m u c h . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 101 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E: I th i n k w e a r e a g r e e d t h a t fir s t w e s a i d th e t a x in v o ic e d o n o t p r e s e n t i t . R a i s i n g i t m e a n s d o n o t p r e s e n t it ? We a g r e e d o n th a t n e ? M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV GCABASHE: I n f u l l o r in p a r t o k a y. r e s p e c t o f t h e h a n d o v e r o f a s s e ts . B u t t h a t t a x i n v o i c e is i n Yo u m a y w a n t t o t h i n k a b o u t t h a t b e f o r e y o u g iv e m e y o u r fu ll a n s w e r. Is th a t w h a t y o u m e a n h e r e ? Fo r t h e f u l l h a n d o v e r o f a s s e ts . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I m a y – I m a y – i t is a v e r y d i ff ic u l t q u e s t io n . I 10 m a y – f o r m e to b e a b le t o a n s w e r m i g h t n e e d m e t o g o b a c k i n c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h th e s t a te la w a d v is o r s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll – b u t th is i s a l e t t e r t h a t y o u w r o te . Th is is p a r a g r a p h 5 t h a t y o u w r o te . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ms G c a b a s h e is p u t ti n g to y o u h e r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f what you wrote. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t b e a b l e to s a y, n o t h a t i s n o t w h a t i t m e a n s or I see what – what you – what you say it means but this is what I 20 in t e n d e d to c o n v e y. Yo u s h o u l d n o t n e e d – y o u s h o u l d n o t n e e d t h e s t a te la w a d v is o r f o r th a t . M R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir I – m y o r i g i n a l e x p l a n a ti o n w a s s a y i n g w a s t h a t t h e y s h o u l d n o t g i v e u s t h e ta x i n v o ic e w i t h r e g a r d t o th e – t o th e a s s e t r a is e d in t h is r e g a r d u n t il e v e r y th in g is d o n e . T h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e y s h o u l d n o t d o t h a t . B e c a u s e i f t h e y r a i s e a t a x Page 102 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 in v o ic e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t th e y m a y b e s u b je c t to c l a i m t h e t a x in t h i s r e g a r d . S o h e n c e w e th e n n e e d e d t o d o a l o t o f t h in g s b e f o r e t h e n w e a r e a b le t o s a y, y e s y o u c a n r a is e a t a x i n v o ic e o r n o y o u c a n n o t r a is e a t a x in v o ic e . ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e t h a t is e x a c tl y w h e r e y o u l o s t m e e a r l ie r o n w h i c h i s w h y I w a n t e d u s t o g o b a c k a n d b r e a k i t d o w n i n li t tl e p i e c e s . B e c a u s e y o u h a d a g r e e d in t h e C a n c e l la t io n A g r e e m e n t to t h e q u a n tu m t o t h e s u m t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o p a y. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 10 ADV GCABASHE: Correct? And I thought you and I had an agreement t h a t w h a t a t a x i n v o ic e is is j u s t a f o r m a l i n v o ic e t h a t y o u p r e s e n t. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w w h e r e y o u a n d I s e e m t o b e m is s i n g e a c h o t h e r is i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t i t is y o u w e r e te ll i n g t h e m t o h o l d o n to . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : U n ti l y o u h a d t r a n s f e r r e d a l l o f t h e R 1 0 6 m i ll io n i n t o t h e ir a c c o u n t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u o k a y w i th t h a t ? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E: Right. What were you asking them to hold back u n t il s u c h ti m e a s y o u h a d p a id th e m t h e R 1 0 6 m i ll io n t h a t th is a g r e e m e n t r e fe r s t o a s t h e p a y m e n t t h a t i s d u e ? M a y b e t h a t w il l h e lp us. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r i f y o u r a is e a ta x in v o ic e i t m e a n s o n t h e Page 103 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a m o u n t t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is d u e t h e n y o u s a y p l u s t a x . T h e n i t w i ll in c r e a s e th e a m o u n t . Th e n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t i n t e r m s o f t h e v a l u e o f t h e a s s e t y o u m a y n o t th e n c o m e a n d s a y th is is th e v a l u e o f w h a t i s d u e t o u s p l u s 1 4 % a t t h a t t i m e ta x . That is what we were s a y in g d o n o t d o t h a t . ADV GCABASHE: N o t b u t M r T h a b e th e i n t h e a g r e e m e n t y o u h a d s t ip u l a t e d a n a m o u n t th a t th e y s h o u l d c la i m fr o m y o u – i n th e agreement. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a v e s ti p u l a t e d t h e a m o u n t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: When we look at how you arrive at that 106 you go t o p a g e 5 6 8 o f t h e s a m e a g r e e m e n t, s a m e b u n d l e y o u a r e s t il l l o o k in g a t. P l e a s e g o t o p a g e 5 6 8 . N o s a m e b u n d l e . I t i s w h e r e th e le t t e r – i t is p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t I b e g y o u r p a r d o n o f c a n c e ll a ti o n s . M R T H A B E T H E : I t is o n t h e o t h e r f il e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : O h A g r e e m e n t o f C a n c e l la t io n . I t i s y o u a r e c o r r e c t in F il e B . S o I w a n t y o u t o g o t o p a g e 5 6 8 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : A h a . T h e r e y o u s e e t h e b a l a n c e d u e i s R 1 0 6 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d s o m e – R 1 0 6 m i ll io n I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : R 1 0 6 2 5 2 6 1 5 2 .0 0 . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Rands. But of course when you look at that Page 104 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 p a r t ic u l a r s c h e d u l e t h e r e is p r o v i s i o n t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e f o r VAT. M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: S o w h a t i s t h e t a x t h a t y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d w i th ? B e c a u s e h e r e i s VAT a n d p r o v is io n h a s b e e n m a d e f o r th a t a n d y o u r t o t a l c o m e s to ju s t o v e r R 1 0 6 m il li o n ? Which tax were you worrying a b o u t? MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir. Let me go back again. F o r o n l y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s w h ic h is s u e s y o u w i th a VAT o r a t a x i n v o ic e th e y a r e s u b j e c t t o g o b a c k a n d c l a i m t h a t i n v o i c e b a c k fr o m S A R S . 10 Hence we are s a y in g t o t h e m d o n o t r a is e b e c a u s e w e a r e w e ll a w a r e th a t i n a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s y o u p a y t h e m t h e VAT f o r th e a s s e ts a n d t h e n w h e n th e y m a k e t h e ir fi li n g o f VAT t o – f o r t a x c o m p li a n c e t h e y c l a i m t h a t VAT b a c k . I f – i f it i s i n d ic a t e d i n t h e i n v o i c e b u t i f i t is n o t i n d ic a t e d i n t h e in v o ic e t h e y c a n n o t c l a i m i t b a c k . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t Mr T h a b e t h e y o u h a d a lr e a d y u n d e r t a k e n i n t h e a g r e e m e n t t o p a y t h e m R 1 0 6 2 5 2 6 5 2 .0 0 . M R T H A B E T H E : E x a c tly C h a ir b e c a u s e w e h a d – w e k n o w t h a t i t h a s b e e n p a i d th e y c a n n o t – y o u s e e i f th e y d o t h a t i t b e c o m e s a d o u b l e p a y m e n t f o r th e m . T h e y b e n e fi t . B e c a u s e th e y w o u l d c l a i m i t b a c k . 20 ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e i f t h e y d o w h a t? Yo u s a y if t h e y d o that – if they do what? MR THABETHE: Should they… CHAIRPERSON: I a m t r y in g t o fo ll o w a ls o M r T h a b e th e . I a m n o t f o ll o w i n g w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . MR THABETHE: C h a ir i f – i f y o u a r e VAT r e g is te r e d y o u a r e w o r k in g Page 105 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w i t h th e D e p a r t m e n t. W e f il e o u r s u b m i s s i o n s to S A R S a s a d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y i t i s s o m u c h VAT t h a t t h is c o m p a n y h a s p a i d . S o t h a t w h e n t h e y fi le t h e ir s u b m i s s i o n th e y a r e a b l e to c l a i m t h e VAT b a c k i f t h e y a r e VAT r e g is t e r e d . B u t i f o u r s u b m is s i o n t o S A R S s a y s w e d id n o t c h a r g e t h e m VAT i t m e a n s th e y w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o c la i m b a c k . Hence we were s a y in g t h e y m u s t n o t fil e i t . ADV GCABASHE: Mr Thabethe. MR THABETHE: It means… CHAIRPERSON: I think … 10 ADV GCABASHE: I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k le t u s g o b a c k t o Ms G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s t io n . P a r a g r a p h 5 . W h a t i s i t th a t E s ti n a w a s e n t i tl e d to d o w h ic h y o u w e r e s a y in g t h e y m u s t n o t d o ? Just tell us that again in paragraph 5? Is t h e r e s o m e t h in g t h e y w e r e e n ti t le d t o d o w h i c h y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h e y must not do and if so what was it? M R T H A B E T H E : W h a t w e w e r e s a y i n g t h e y s h o u l d n o t d o C h a i r is t h a t t h e y m u s t n o t fi l e f o r VAT. C la i m in g t h a t i n b u y i n g th e s e a s s e ts t h e y h a v e p a i d VAT. A D V G C A B A S H E: 20 B u t M r Th a b e t h e t h e a m o u n t t h a t is i n t h e a g r e e m e n t if a n a m o u n t y o u a g r e e t o n u m b e r 1 . I t in c l u d e s p r o v i s i o n f o r VAT n u m b e r 2 . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Th ir d a n d m o s t i m p o r t a n t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i n p a r a g r a p h 5 is d o n o t is s u e t h a t t a x i n v o ic e u n ti l w e h a v e p a i d th a t m o n e y i n to y o u r a c c o u n t . Page 106 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : A l lo w u s to p a y t h e R 1 0 6 m ill i o n in t o y o u r a c c o u n t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : S o t h e w h o le a m o u n t w i t h t h e VAT c o n s id e r a ti o n i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g l e t u s p a y y o u t h a t m o n e y. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: Once we have transferred it we can talk about a s s e ts a n d w h a t e v e r e ls e 5 m i g h t b e r e f e r r i n g t o . P a r a g r a p h 5 m ig h t b e r e f e r r i n g to . 10 M R T H A B E T H E: J a l e t m e g o b a c k t o it a g a i n C h a ir ? A ll w e a r e s a y i n g is th a t i n – i n a ll t h e s e i t e ms y o u h a v e p a i d VAT a n d w e h a v e c a lc u la t e d t h e VAT i n p a y i n g i t b a c k t o y o u . B u t w e – d o n o t – b e c a u s e w h a t is v e r y k e y w h e n y o u g o t o S A R S i s y o u r – is y o u r t a x in v o ic e . I f y o u s a y t h e D e p a r t m e n t I h a v e – I h a v e g iv e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a s s e ts i n w h i c h I h a v e p a id VAT th e r e fo r e th is VAT m u s t b e p a i d b a c k t o m e a n d w e a r e s a y i n g i f t h a t h a p p e n s i t w il l m e a n w e h a v e p a i d y o u t h e m o n e y o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t . Yo u c a n c l a i m y o u r VAT b a c k . I t m e a n s t h e y a r e g o i n g t o g e t m o r e m o n e y. T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h a t w a s y o u r c o n c e r n ? W h a t w a s g o in g t o b e w r o n g i f y o u d id n o t w r i te t h a t – t h a t p a r a g r a p h 5 ? MR THABETHE: It would mean … CHAIRPERSON: And they just… M R T H A B E T H E : I t w o u ld m e a n C h a ir t h a t w h e n w e d o o u r s u b m is s i o n t o S A R S w e w o u l d a ls o c o n f ir m t h a t t h e y a r e l ia b le t o g e t VAT b a c k . Page 107 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: And then? MR THABETHE: It m e a n s t h e n th e y w i ll – t h e y a r e g o i n g t o – t h e y w o u ld r e c e iv e m o r e t h a n w h a t w e w o u l d h a v e p a id t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t w h a t y o u d o a ll t h e t i m e w i th a ll t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ? I s t h a t k i n d o f – is t h a t w h a t y o u w r it e to s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s who present tax invoices? M R T H A B E T H E: T h is w a s a d i ff e r e n t o n e b e c a u s e w e w e r e te r m in a ti n g h e r e C h a ir. B u t t h is is w h a t w e … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y s h o u ld it m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e ? 10 MR THABETHE: No we… C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f S A R S ? M R TH A B E T H E : L e t m e s a y w e d o it C h a ir. W e d o s u b mi s s io n s to e v e r y b o d y. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o I m e a n th is k in d o f l e tt e r, t h i s k i n d o f p a r a g r a p h . D o y o u w r i t e i t t o s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s – t o a ll o f t h e m ? MR THABETHE: No, no. CHAIRPERSON: W h e n t h e y – w h e n t h e y p r e s e n t y o u w i th t a x in v o ic e s ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o w e d o n o t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y n o t? I – w o u l d y o u n o t h a v e t h e s a m e c o n c e r n w i t h r e g a r d t o a l l o f th e m ? MR THABETHE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: If th e y w e r e j u s t p r e s e n t in g y o u w i th i n v o i c e s in c l u d i n g VAT w o u l d y o u n o t h a v e – w o u l d t h e s a m e c o n c e r n s n o t arise? Page 108 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : I t i s p o s s i b l e C h a ir b u t i n th is i n s ta n c e w e – w e h a d t h e n to d e a l w i th it d i ff e r e n tly. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h y d o y o u n o t – i f i t i s a – i f i t is a l e g i ti m a t e c o n c e r n – i t m u s t b e a l e g i t i m a te c o n c e r n w i t h a ll t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t h a t s e n d y o u ta x i n v o ic e s , is i t n o t ? M R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So why – why do you not do the same with regard to all the others? M R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir b u t l ik e I e x p l a i n e d w e h a d s a t a n d 10 w e h a d d is c u s s e d t h is w i t h t h e s t a t e la w a d v is o r s . W e h a d a g r e e d w e should include this u n d e r s t a n d in g . statement. I t is d i ffic u lt f o r And me my to e x p l a n a t io n explain is my it beyond my u n d e r s t a n d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s M s G c a b a s h e . M R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e w h a t I h a d e x p l a i n e d is w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d i t to mean. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e t h e r e a s o n t h a t th is s t il l d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e c e r t a i n ly n o t t o m e Mr T h a b e t h e is VAT is a n o u t p u t c o s t . W h e n y o u b i ll fo r VAT i t i s n o t y o u r m o n e y y o u p a s s i t o n . I t is n o t – i t is n o t 20 t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e p a i d t h e m m o r e t h a n w a s d u e t o th e m w e r e t h e y t o t a k e VAT i n t o a c c o u n t. VAT i s n o t m i n e t o k e e p . VAT I m u s t p a s s b a c k to the taxman. I s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t? VAT is n e v e r t h e m o n e y t h a t a c c r u e s t o t h e p e r s o n w h o is p r e s e n t i n g t h e a c c o u n t . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir … A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s a t a x th a t g o e s a w a y. I t is n o t y o u r s to k e e p . Page 109 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e y o u a c c e p t t h a t d o y o u n o t? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir I w o u l d n o t a g r e e n o t t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y VAT d o e s n o t g o t o th e – t o S A R S ? Yo u s a y VAT i s n o t S A R S m o n e y ? M R T H A B E T H E : I t is S A R S m o n e y C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So why do you say you do not agree? M R T H A B E T H E : N o w h a t I d o n o t a g r e e C h a ir i s t h a t S A R S s h o u l d p a y back. 10 CHAIRPERSON: So were you concerned whether SARS – SARS was g o i n g t o p a y b a c k s o m e m o n e y th a t i t s h o u l d n o t p a y – w a s g o i n g t o p a y t o E s t i n a m o n e y th a t i t s h o u l d n o t p a y t o E s ti n a ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u th i n k S A R S w o u l d d o th a t ? M R T H A B E T H E: I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir b u t fr o m o u r s id e t h a t is w h a t w e w e r e s a y i n g C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th is is th e . .. C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G c a b a s h e c o n c lu d e . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r m a n . T h i s is t h e fir s t t i m e t h a t y o u 20 h a v e n o t lo o k e d o u t t o Es t in a ’s i n t e r e s ts . T h i s t i m e y o u l o o k in g o u t t o S A R S i n te r e s t s . B e c a u s e y o u a r e w o r r i e d a b o u t w h a t S A R S m a y h a v e to pay back. A ll a l o n g y o u h a v e b e e n t e ll i n g u s a l l a b o u t h o w Es t in a n e e d s t o b e p r o t e c te d i n o n e w a y o r t h e o th e r. Ve r y s tr a n g e . Yo u n o ti c e h u h ? T h a t a ll a lo n g y o u h a v e b e e n t e l li n g u s w h y y o u c a n n o t d o c e r t a i n Page 110 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h i n g s Es t in a w o u ld n o t – w o u ld b e a b l e t o d o w h a t e v e r. p r o t e c t in g Es t in a ’s i n t e r e s t s . Yo u a r e T h e C h a i r ma n h a s p o i n t e d i t o u t a n u m b e r o f ti m e s . T h i s ti m e y o u a r e s a y in g n o w S A R S i s t h e in t e r e s t t h a t y o u a r e p r o t e c t in g . M R T H A B E T H E : N o t r e a l ly C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Aha. N o t – w h a t – y o u s a y i n g n o t r e a l ly w h a t is i t t h a t i s n o t – t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g n o t r e a l ly ? MR THABETHE: 10 Th e s t a t e m e n t t h a t n o w I s e e m to b e m o v i n g fr o m p r o t e c t in g E s ti n a t o p r o t e c ti n g S A R S . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n y o u d o n o t lik e th e i d e a t h a t M s G c a b a s h e is s a y in g y o u a r e m o v i n g a w a y fr o m p r o t e c t in g E s ti n a ? Yo u w o u l d lik e h e r t o s a y y o u a r e c o n t i n u i n g t o p r o t e c t Es ti n a ? M R T H A B E T H E: N o t – n o t t h a t I d o n o t lik e to p r o t e c t b u t th e w a y i t h a s b e e n p u t i t s a y s t h a t – m y i n t e r e s t h a s n o t b e e n i n th e p r o je c t. T h a t is w h a t I a m r e a d i n g in t o i t b u t t h a t i s w h e r e I s a y I d o n o t a g r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y m a k e – c o n t i n u e Ms G c a b a s h e . ADV GCABASHE: But we can … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E: I th i n k C h a ir m a n t h e r e s t w e w il l ju s t m a k e s u b m is s io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV GCABASHE: On our u n d e r s ta n d i n g and fr o m the record tr a n s c r ip t s . W e w i ll m a k e t h e s u b m is s i o n s o n t h is p o i n t. CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e le t u s p u t th is . Page 111 of 200 Wa s E s ti n a n o t e n ti t le d t o 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 in c l u d e VAT w h e n y o u s a id t h e y m u s t n o t r a is e t a x i n v o i c e ? M R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e w e w e r e s a y i n g C h a ir l a t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r e v e n o b li g e d ? MR THABETHE: Later we can look at that. CHAIRPERSON: N o b u t a s a t th e ti m e w e r e t h e y n o t e n ti tl e d i f n o t o b li g e d t o i n c lu d e VAT ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ? T h a t is w h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t. M R T H A B E T H E : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t VAT h a d b e e n i n c l u d e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr e a d y ? M R T H A B E T H E : A lr e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u th o u g h t th e y w e r e g o i n g t o … MR THABETHE: Double yes – because if… C H A I R P E R S O N : To y o u ? MR THABETHE: I f y o u p a y th e VAT a n d y o u h a v e r e fl e c t e d it i n t h e in v o ic e th e n t h e y – th e y c a n g o a n d c la i m i t b a c k . T h a t is w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o s a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay Ms Gcabashe you wanted to move on? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s I w il l s i m p ly c o n c lu d e b y s a y i n g t h e i m p r e s s i o n I 20 a m le f t w i t h a n d i t i s a s u b m is s i o n t h a t I w i ll b e m a k i n g Mr T h a b e t h e i s y o u a p p e a r e d t o b e s a y i n g t o E s ti n a w a i t fo r u s t o p a y y o u t h e f u l l a m o u n t w e h a v e a g r e e d in t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: T h e f a c t t h a t o n t h e h a n d o v e r o f a s s e ts w h a t y o u h a n d o v e r d o e s n o t m e e t t h a t q u a n tu m t h a t w e h a v e p a i d y o u is Page 112 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s o m e t h i n g w e w il l s o r t o u t a f t e r. T h is i s m y i m p r e s s i o n – w e w il l s o r t t h a t o u t a f t e r w a r d s . I a m l o o k i n g a ft e r y o u . I a m m a k i n g s u r e y o u g e t y o u r R 1 0 6 m i ll i o n . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : I f t h e a s s e ts d o n o t a d d u p t o R 1 0 6 m il li o n w e w il l s e e th a t l a t e r o n . I d o n o t w a n t t o b e a b le t o c o m p a r e w h a t I a m p a y i n g y o u a n d t h e a s s e t s t h a t y o u a r e h a n d in g o v e r. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: 10 S o th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g h o ld b a c k th e a s s e ts . T h a t is m y i m p r e s s i o n o f w h a t p a r a g r a p h 5 r e a d s . S o i t is n o t f a v o u r a b l e to y o u . I n f a c t i t is s a y i n g y o u w e r e a g a in p r o te c ti n g E s ti n a . MR THABETHE: N o , n o C h a ir. B e c a u s e w e h a d g o n e i n th e a s s e t r e g is t e r – a s s e t b y a s s e t s o th a t w e h a d lo o k e d a t . We had gone t h r o u g h a s s e t b y a s s e t i n t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r t o s a y t h is a s s e t t h is v a l u e , t h is a s s e t th is v a l u e . S o t h a t w e h a d d o n e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: N o w – y e s n o w t h is t a x i n v o i c e y o u t a lk a b o u t a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . W o u l d i t h a v e b e e n – w o u l d t h e VAT t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t h a v e b e e n VAT t h a t E s ti n a w o u ld h a v e b o u g h t – w o u l d h a v e p a i d 20 in p u r c h a s i n g t h o s e a s s e t s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e t a l k in g a b o u t? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a s s e t s t h e m s e lv e s w e r e t h e y n o t i n c l u d e d i n t h e R 1 0 6 m il li o n t h e y a r e – t h e y a r e – w h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o p a y f o r Page 113 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h e m ? I n o t h e r w o r d s th e a s s e ts . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , t h e y … CHAIRPERSON: Were they included? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s th e y w e r e in c l u d e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e VAT w a s i n c lu d e d ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. O n t h e – o n t h e a m o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : E v e n t u a ll y a g r e e d o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u j u s t d i d n o t w a n t y o u to g iv e y o u t h e b il l 10 t h a t – t h e t a x in v o ic e th a t r e f l e c te d w h a t a l r e a d y w a s t h e p o s i t io n ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I w a s te m p t e d to a s k w h y C h a ir m a n b u t I t h i n k y o u h a v e a s k e d th a t . I t is o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e t h e I r e a l ly w a n t t o m o v e o n to t h e n e x t p o i n t i f t h a t is a lr ig h t w i t h y o u ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: 20 A n d i t i s r e a l ly t o j u s t u n d e r s ta n d t h e – t h e F D C a p p o i n t m e n t a n d m o r e i m p o r ta n tl y I w o u ld lik e t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f E t c h u C i v il s a s t h e m a n a g in g a g e n t o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y f a r m ? D o y o u k n o w E ’ ts h o C iv il s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I d o . A D V G C A B A S H E: D o y o u k n o w t h a t t h e y a s s is te d t h e F D C i n m a n a g in g t h e f a r m ? Page 114 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : I a m h e r e l o o k i n g a t a n a d d e n d u m t o a s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e F D C a n d E ’ ts h o C i v il s . U n f o r t u n a t e ly i t is n o t a c o m p l e te c o p y. Yo u k n o w I t h i n k t h e b a c k p a g e w a s n o t c o p i e d . S o y o u h a v e g o t t h e fr o n t a n d n o t t h e n e x t p a g e . W h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n t h o u g h is t h e c o n tr a c t p r ic e t h a t w a s r e c o r d e d i n t h a t a g r e e m e n t? I f y o u g o t o p a g e 11 2 9 o f F il e – R e fe r e n c e Fi le D . MR THABETHE: Got it. A D V G C A B A S H E : O n 1 - 1 - 2 - 9 y o u h a v e A d d e n d u m t o Vr e d e I n te g r a te d 10 D a ir y P r o je c t M a n a g e m e n t S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t . 1 - 1 - 2 - 9 - a r e y o u t h e r e ? 11 - 2 - 9 . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d th e r e y o u s e e : “ Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n w i s h e s t o c la r i fy t h a t t h e p a y m e n t p la n e n v i s a g e d i n A n n e x u r e C o f th e V I D P M a n a g e m e n t A g r e e m e n t i s a s f o ll o w s : in v o ic e s w i ll b e p a i d m o n t h ly o v e r t h e d u r a t i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t. T h a t is o v e r th r e e y e a r s . ” N o w t h is is s ig n e d in 2 0 1 6 . 20 “ C o n tr a c t p r i c e : R 3 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 e x c lu d i n g VAT. ” W h a t w a s t h a t a b o u t? D o y o u k n o w M r T h a b e t h e ? 3 2 m i ll io n w a s g o i n g to b e p a i d to E ’ ts h o C iv i ls a s a M a n a g in g A g e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir w e h a d s i g n e d a n a g r e e m e n t t o F D C t o d o management of the project. I n t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t t h e r e w a s a c o u p l e o f is s u e s t h a t h a d r a is e d w i t h th e m t o a s s i s t u s i n d o i n g . W h a t I Page 115 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 k n o w is th a t F D C a d v e r t is e d a t e n d e r. T h e y w e n t t h r o u g h t h e ir o w n p r o c e s s u n ti l t h a t - t h e n th e y a p p o i n te d t h e - th e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r t o b e a b l e t o l o o k a f t e r th e p r o j e c t . T h e - th e d e t a i ls b e c a u s e w e h a d r e q u e s t e d th e m t o s a y w h a t w e h a d s a id a s a d e p a r t m e n t . W e s a i d w e w il l m a k e m o n e y a v a i l a b l e . W e s a i d t o th e m w e a r e g o in g t o m a k e 2 0 mi ll io n a v a il a b l e f o r t h e m t o b e a b l e t o a s s is t o v e r t h is p e r io d t o m a k e s u r e u n t il a f in a l d e c is i o n h a s b e e n ta k e n . T h a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d . S o t h e y - t h e y w e n t a n d a d v e r ti s e d a t e n d e r a n d t h e y a p p o i n te d th e m a n a g in g a g e n t to l o o k a f t e r th e 10 project. S o t h a t w h il s t w e - w e a r e b u s y fi n a li s i n g w e s h o u l d th e n b e in a p o s i ti o n to h a v e t h e p r o j e c ts c o l la p s i n g . S o th is is w h a t F D C h a v e e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h - w i th E ’ ts h o . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o r e a lly y o u h a d a g r e e d o n 2 0 m il li o n a s a c o n tr a c t p r i c e o r 2 0 m i ll io n p e r a n n u m w it h F D C . J u s t e x p l a i n t h a t. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . W e h a d a g r e e d t h a t w e w i ll m a k e a v a i la b le - w e s a i d w e h a v e - w e w i ll m a k e a v a il a b l e 2 0 m il li o n . W e d i d n o t d i c ta t e h o w m u c h is it g o i n g t o b e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e s t il l g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k a n d t e l l u s h o w m u c h is i t g o in g t o c o s t . H e n c e t h e y w e n t o n t e n d e r. 20 A ll w e t o ld t h e m i s t h a t t h is i s h o w m u c h w e w ill h a v e fo r y o u t o t a k e c a r e o f t h e p r o je c t a n d - a n d a f t e r a p e r i o d o f th r e e y e a r s y o u s h o u ld h a v e c o n c lu d e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o . T h e 2 0 m il li o n w a s f o r t h a t f i n a n c ia l y e a r - t h i s is a ll I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d - p e r m o n t h f o r th e w h o l e fi n a n c i a l y e a r w h a t y o u u n d e r t o o k to p a y to F D C ? Page 116 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: N o w e s a id p e r a n n u m . What we have - we did not s a y s p e n d 2 0 m i ll io n . ADV GCABASHE: Hm. MR THABETHE: W e s a i d w h a t i s a v a il a b le fr o m u s k e e p i n m i n d y o u h a v e g o t t h i s m u c h m o n e y. A D V G C A B A S H E : S o y o u h a d 2 0 m i lli o n p e r a n n u m ? MR THABETHE: Per annum. A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r a th r e e y e a r p e r i o d ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: So 2014/2015? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: 2015/2016? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : 2 0 1 6 / 2 0 1 7 - fo r t h o s e t h r e e fi n a n c i a l y e a r s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d - a n d th a t is a l l y o u m a d e a v a i la b l e t o t h e F D C ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t i t a g r e e d w i t h i ts s e r v ic e p r o v id e r h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th y o u ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e n - t h e y w il l th e n a g r e e h o w t o m a n a g e a n d m a k e s u r e w h a t - w h a t g e t s d o n e b e c a u s e i n t h e a g r e e m e n t w e h a d a ls o m a d e c l e a r w h a t k i n d o f a c tiv i ti e s s h o u l d b e c o v e r e d . ADV GCABASHE: W e r e - w e r e t h e r e - a n d t h i s is F D C . Page 117 of 200 Was FDC 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 e n t i tl e d t o b il l y o u f o r t h e a d d i t io n a l a m o u n t t h e y h a d to p a y t o t h e i r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ? MR THABETHE: F D C ’s r e s p o n s ib il it y w a s a ls o to w r i te t o u s o n a m o n th ly b a s i s t o e x p l a i n f o r w h a t d i d th e y u s e t h e c o s ts fo r. ADV GCABASHE: W e r e t h e y e n t i tl e d to b i ll y o u f o r a n y a d d i ti o n a l a m o u n t t h a t th e y w e r e h a v in g to p a y a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ? MR THABETHE: N o t - n o t t o b il l C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e - t h e m o n e y t h a t w e - w e - b e c a u s e FD C is a s t a te e n ti t y. T h e y h a v e g o t th e i r p r o c e s s e s t h a t t h e y c a n u s e w h ic h m e a n s y o u c a n tr a n s fe r m o n e y t o t h e m a n d 10 t h e y s p e n d it w i t h i n - b e c a u s e th e r e a r e - t h e r e a r e p r e s c r i b e d h o w t o s p e n d . A ll t h a t w e n e e d e d to t h e m u s e y o u r p r o c e s s e s b u t w e e x p e c t y o u t o te ll u s w h a t th e a c ti v i ti e s a r e th a t y o u h a v e s p e n t t h e m o n e y f o r. ADV GCABASHE: So … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is w h a t w e e x p e c te d th e m t o d o . ADV GCABASHE: S o i n r e s p e c t o f t h e c o n tr a c t p r ic e o f R 3 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 w e r e F D C e x p e c t e d t o r a i s e t h e s h o r t f a l l b e t w e e n th e 2 0 m i ll io n t h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g a v a i la b l e p e r a n n u m a n d t h e R 3 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t th e y a g r e e d t h e y w o u ld b e p a y in g E ’t s h o - t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir m y - my u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t th is c h a r t w a s 20 f o r t h r e e y e a r s . S o it w a s fa r l e s s t h a n w h a t w e w o u l d p a y t h e m . A D V G C A B A S H E : I s e e . S o t h a t 3 2 5 0 0 0 0 0 a c tu a l ly c o v e r e d a t h r e e y e a r p e r io d ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Not a one year period? MR THABETHE: Not the one year period. Page 118 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: Mr Thabethe. Oh. Yo u k n o w. Yo u s h o u l d h a v e s a id s o i n t h e b e g in n i n g Good. T h a t i s h e l p f u l. I t is . The next q u e s t io n th e n t h e m o n t h l y p a y m e n ts w o u l d b e p a y m e n ts t h a t w o u l d b e m a d e t o t h e s a m e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r o n l y b e c a u s e i t is i n t h e a g r e e m e n t . Yo u - w h a t w e r e th e m o n th ly p a y m e n t s f o r ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, I - I u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e te n d e r d o c u m e n t g iv e s d e t a i ls h o w t h e y a r r i v e d t o th is b e c a u s e a lo t o f o t h e r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s w i ll a ls o o u t li n e u n t il e v e n t u a ll y th e y d e c i d e w h ic h o n e . S o t h e te n d e r d o c u m e n t w o u ld b e a b l e to s a y w h a t in f o r m s t h a t a m o u n t . 10 ADV GCABASHE: N o w ju s t c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g . We have d is c u s s e d p r e v i o u s ly t h e c o r e c o m p e te n c i e s o f th e FD C a n d t h e c o r e c o m p e te n c i e s o f E ’ ts h o C iv i ls . H a v e w e n o t? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: And we have agreed that FDC did not have a c o m p e te n c y t o r u n a d a ir y f a r m . W e a g r e e d t h a t. M R T H A B E T H E : W e - w e w e r e - w e w e r e a w a r e o f t h a t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: J a a n d E ’ ts h o C iv il s a c t u a ll y is a p r o j e c t c o m p a n y. T h e y l a r g e ly b u i ld h o u s e s a n d t h i n g s l ik e t h a t . T h e y d o n o t h a v e a c o r e c o m p e te n c y i n t h e d a ir y f a r m i n g in d u s tr y. W e a g r e e d th a t . I th in k a s 20 w e ll . M R T H A B E T H E : N o . W e d i d n o t a g r e e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y. C a n - t h e n I a m m ix in g y o u u p w i t h o n e o f m y o th e r w i t n e s s e s . MR THABETHE: Oh. A D V G C A B A S H E : P l e a s e h e l p m e . W h a t i s y o u r v ie w ? Page 119 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: I w o u l d - w o u l d p r e f e r F D C to a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e y w e n t i n t o t h e d e ta il s o f th e C V … A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e … M R T H A B E T H E : O f - o f E ’ ts h o . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e M r Th a b e t h e t h is is y o u r m o n e y a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y. Yo u h a v e t o s u p e r v is e a n d m o n i t o r. So you cannot let a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r n o w - t h a t is a t f ir s t l e v e l - t h e F D C . Do as they p l e a s e w i th y o u r m o n e y. Yo u h a v e g o t t o b e a b l e t o r e i g n t h e m i n a n d s a y t h a t is o u r m o n e y t h a t y o u a r e u s in g a n d w e h a v e a s k e d y o u t o u s e 10 it in t h is p a r ti c u la r m a n n e r. Yo u c a n n o t b r i n g i n s o m e b o d y w h o h a s n o c o r e c o m p e t e n c y in d a ir y f a r m i n g a n d th e n b e s u r p r is e d w h e n th in g s g o te r r i b l y w r o n g . I t is y o u r j o b t o d o th a t . MR THABETHE: C h a ir i n - i n a t e n d e r p r o c e s s it is a v e r y d i ffi c u l t thing to do because you would want to go and say I want to see your d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e y o u c o n c l u d e b e c a u s e i f - i f y o u a r e n o t i n t h e c o m m i t t e e o r th e - b e c a u s e t h e r e - t h e r e a r e p r o p e r s tr u c tu r e s th a t t h e y are gazetted for you to be able to deal with that. So you cannot in t e r fe r e a n d c o m e in a n d s a y n o I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o d o i t t h is w a y. 20 T h e y h a d t o fo ll o w t h e p r o c e s s e s a s th e y a r e . S o y o u - y o u c a n n o t c o m e i n a n d s a y I w a n t - FD C I w a n t t o s e e a ll y o u r t e n d e r d o c u m e n ts b e c a u s e I h a v e i n te r e s t . Yo u s e e t h a t is th e d i ffi c u l ty. Yo u h a v e t o f o l l o w t h e p r o c e s s a s s t ip u l a t e d . S o t h e y h a v e to d o i t th e w a y t h e y h a v e - - th e y - t h e y a r e d o in g i t . A D V G C A B A S H E : C a n I m o v e t o t h e n e x t t o p ic ? W e a r e fi n i s h i n g … Page 120 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e th e . I a m j u s t d o in g th e l a s t f e w t h i n g s n o w. C a n I ju s t t a k e y o u t o th e l e a s e a g r e e m e n t s a n d th is i s ju s t t h e p r i n c i p l e o f i t a l l . D o n o t w o r r y b e c a u s e y o u w e r e in v o lv e d i n e n s u r i n g t h a t th e l e a s e fo r t h e f a r m w a s s i g n e d o n 1 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . Is th a t correct? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ex c e ll e n t . Yo u t h e n e n t e r e d i n t o a n a g r e e m e n t w i th E s ti n a in r e s p e c t o f t h a t la n d . 10 Yo u a c t u a ll y e n te r e d i n t o a 9 9 y e a r le a s e a g r e e m e n t w it h E s t i n a … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: And it was renewable. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: W h y w o u l d y o u e n t e r in t o a l e a s e a g r e e m e n t w i t h E s ti n a ( P t y ) L t d fo r 9 9 y e a r s ? S o y o u a r e g iv i n g t h e m Vr e d e - la n d i n Vr e d e f o r 9 9 y e a r s a n d th e n y o u a r e s a y in g t o t h e m i t i s r e n e w a b l e fo r a n o t h e r 9 9 y e a r s . H e l p m e u n d e r s t a n d th e j u s t if ic a ti o n f o r t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir w e - I - I t h i n k w e a r e g o i n g t o it - w e d i d d is c u s s i t a n d m y - m y e x p la n a ti o n a t t h a t t i m e w a s th a t t h a t tr a n s fe r 20 w a s - y o u r e m e m b e r I w a s a d v is e d b y th e S ta t e L a w A d v i s o r s n o t a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e t r a n s f e r th e l a n d a n d th e p r o j e c ts t o t h e - to t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s . W e h a d th e n p u t i t o n h o l d . T h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t o n c e th e e n t i ty h a s b e e n p u t i n p l a c e t h e n w e t r a n s f e r t h e la n d t o g e t h e r w it h t h e p r o j e c ts to th e b e n e fic i a r i e s . N o w it w il l b e c o m e - i t - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t w e Page 121 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w i ll t h e n tr a n s f e r th a t la n d a s p a r t o f t h e l a n d r e f o r m p r o g r a m - p r o je c t t o t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u k n o w M r Th a b e t h e M r Ve n te r m a d e i t p l a i n t h a t h e k n e w n o t h in g a b o u t t h is 9 9 y e a r l e a s e a r r a n g e m e n t th a t y o u h a d e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h Es t in a . M i n d y o u i t w a s r e n t fr e e . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, I - I c a n g o b a c k t o th a t . T h e y h a d t h r o u g h t h e r e q u ir e d l e g is la t io n p r o v id e d th a t in s tr u m e n t to m e t o b e a b l e t o d o s o . S o i t b e c o m e s v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o m e if y o u a r e - y o u g iv e m e a n in s t r u m e n t to b e a b l e to d o e x a c t ly th a t a n d - a n d y o u d o n o t k n o w. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t w a s t h e i n s tr u m e n t M r T h a b e t h e ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e d e l e g a ti o n w a s t h e in s tr u m e n t t h a t t h e - t h e la n d - th e p o w e r t o d o s o w a s t h e n e v e n tu a l ly d e l e g a t e d t o th e h e a d o f department … ADV GCABASHE: No. MR THABETHE: And … ADV GCABASHE: Beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . My a p o l o g y C h a ir a n d a ls o t h e - t h e d r a f t in g o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d e l e g a ti o n f o r u s to b e a b l e t o d o s o . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e d e l e g a ti o n d o c u m e n t s ta r t e d w i th t h e P r e m i e r ? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: It came to the MEC? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e n fr o m t h e M E C t h e M E C d e l e g a t e d t o y o u … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: T h e e n te r i n g i n t o o f a n a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e Page 122 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 d e p a r t m e n t a n d P h u m e l e l e L o c a l M u n ic i p a l it y ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: That is it. Th e d e l e g a t io n d o c u m e n t d id n o t a u t h o r i s e y o u to e n t e r i n t o a L e a s e A g r e e m e n t o f a n y l e n g t h o f t i m e b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d a th ir d p a r t y. M y c o ll e a g u e i s fi n d i n g i t . I k n o w b e c a u s e w e h a v e l o o k e d a t i t m a n y ti m e s . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r t h e n t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r t h e d e le g a ti o n i f it - it w a s n o t f o r a p a r tic u l a r p u r p o s e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e p a r tic u la r p u r p o s e M r T h a b e th e is w r i tt e n h e r e . 10 C a n I r e a d y o u th e D e le g a ti o n o f A u th o r i t y d o c u m e n t ? T h e p u r p o s e is set out here. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: “ D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty Fr e e S t a te L a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n Agreements. Ac t P h u m e le le Land Rental O n e , k i n d l y b e a d v is e d t h a t y o u a r e hereby - oh, dear Mr Thabethe.” I t is d ir e c t e d t o y o u . MR THABETHE: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: 20 “ K i n d ly b e a d v is e d th a t y o u a r e h e r e b y a s s ig n e d th e a u t h o r i ty in t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 5 o f t h e Fr e e S t a te L a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n A c t 1 9 9 8 t o c o n s id e r a n d s i g n t h e p r o p o s e d a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h e P h u m e le l e M u n i c i p a li ty r e l a t i n g t o th e a s s i g n m e n t o f t h e m u n i c i p a l it y ’s r ig h ts a n d Page 123 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 o b li g a ti o n s in te r ms o f v a r io u s r e n t a l a g r e e m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o c o m m u n a l l a n d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e . N u m b e r tw o , t h i s d e c is i o n s h o u l d b e t a k e n in c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h th e M E C f o r P u b l ic W o r k s d u ly d e l e g a t e d b y th e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il . Th r e e , I tr u s t y o u w i l fi n d i t i n o r d e r. ” I - i f y o u w a n t to r e a d i t s l o w l y. I c a n t a k e y o u to t h e r e fe r e n c e p a g e b u t y o u h a v e u n d e r s to o d t h e p u r p o s e h e r e . Yo u a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e P h u m e l e l e M u n ic ip a li ty. T h a t i s i t . 10 M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir, I - I w a n t t o g o b a c k t o t h e - t o t h e a c tu a l m e a n i n g o f t h e le t t e r s h e i s r e f e r r i n g t o . Th e - t h e la n d w a s b e in g m o v e d fr o m t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty in t o t h e c o ff e r s o f t h e p r o v i n c e w h ic h means it w i ll become p u b l ic works land. That - that is my u n d e r s t a n d in g b e c a u s e t h a t - t h a t i s t h e d e l e g a t io n t h a t t h e y - th e y were - we were referring to. S o t h e l a n d c e a s e d t o b e c o m e a m u n ic i p a l la n d . It b e c a m e p r o v i n c i a l l a n d . I t b e c a m e s t a te la n d . ADV GCABASHE: I a m l is t e n i n g M r T h a b e t h e b e c a u s e I a m tr y in g t o understand the next leg. 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: H o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o ti e u p th e 9 9 y e a r r e n t fr e e le a s e … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: Renewable … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. Page 124 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : To Es t in a w i t h w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . N o w w i t h - w i th m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t o n c e t h e p r o j e c t h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d t h e p r o je c t i s g o i n g to b e tr a n s f e r r e d i n to t h e e n t i ty o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s . N o w t h a t i s - w a s th e u l ti m a t e g o a l t h a t w e w i ll h a v e th is l a n d a s s ta t e l a n d a n d t h e n g o in g t o b e a b le to t a k e t h is la n d b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t h a v e a p r o j e c t o n a l a n d t h a t - t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e to - t o p u t c o n tr o l o v e r. H e n c e t h a t la n d w il l th e n b e c o m e t h e la n d o f t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s t o g e th e r w i t h th e p r o j e c t . T h a t - th a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : M r Th a b e t h e t h i s is t h e a g r e e m e n t y o u e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h Es t in a . MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir i f - i f I m a y c o m e i n . I - I a g r e e th e a g r e e m e n t is t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: T h a t w e h a d s ig n e d to s a y i t i s a 9 9 y e a r le a s e b u t t h e i n t e n t io n w h ic h w e h a d a l l a g r e e d a ls o w i th t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s b e c a u s e I c o u ld h a v e d o n e t h i s fr o m t h e b e g i n n in g t h a t w e d o t h is w i th t h e - w it h t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s b u t w e h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d t h a t w e s h o u l d n o t d o i t a t th a t ti m e a n d w e h a d a g r e e d w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r a t 20 t h a t ti m e t h a t t h is is w h a t w e a r e a d v is e d t o d o . H e n c e w e t h e n s a i d l e t u s d o i t w i t h E s ti n a f o r n o w. S o t h a t w e p r o c e e d w i t h th e p r o j e c t . O n c e it is c o m p le t e d w e tr a n s f e r t h e la n d a n d th e p r o j e c t to t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s . ADV GCABASHE: That is fine Mr Thabethe. Yo u r e v id e n c e i s v e r y d i ff e r e n t to th a t o f Mr Ve n te r w h o i s v e r y c le a r t h a t h e o n ly g o t to k n o w Page 125 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a b o u t th e 9 9 y e a r l e a s e a f t e r th e f a c t . that. T h e y h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i t h I a m n o t d e a li n g w i t h t h e fir s t p a r t o f t h e d e le g a t i o n . I am d e a li n g w i t h w h a t y o u t h e n d e c id e d t o d o a s Mr T h a b e t h e H O D D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e in t h a t c a p a c i ty p l e a s e . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : D o n o t m is u n d e r s t a n d m e w i t h Es t in a M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : In t h a t c a p a c i ty y o u s i g n e d th is a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u s a y y o u a r e n o t d i s p u ti n g . 10 M R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e w it h t h a t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: L a s t o n e w e c o m e t o y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t. C h a ir m a n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e 2 0 1 8 a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e - s o M r T h a b e th e h a v e th e y g iv e n y o u a lo o s e l e a f s u p p l e m e n t a r y - e x c e ll e n t . I a ls o th e n w a n t y o u t o p ic k u p y o u r o r i g in a l b u n d l e s t h a t h a v e y o u r a ffi d a v i t . S o i t i s E X H I B I T S H H 1 0 A a n d H H 1 0 B a n d b e c a u s e I a m s u m m a r is in g I a m h o p i n g w e c a n g o q u i t e q u ic k ly. M R T H A B E T H E : I h a v e - I h a v e g o t th e m C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Ex c e ll e n t. M a y b e w e s h o u l d a c t u a l ly s t a r t r i g h t a t t h e e n d b e c a u s e th a t m a y e x p la in e v e r y t h i n g - th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y 20 a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a v e h a n d e d u p . T h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t M r T h a b e t h e is j u s t s li g h tly d e f e c ti v e b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s io n e r o f O a th s d id n o t in i ti a l e v e r y p a g e b u t a s y o u h e a r d t h i s m o r n i n g y o u r t e s ti m o n y w il l c o n v e r t th is i n t o y o u r e v i d e n c e u n d e r o a th . h a p p y w i t h t h a t? M R T H A B E T H E : I a m f i n e C h a ir. Page 126 of 200 Yo u a r e 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : S o le t u s d e a l w i t h t h is p a r ti c u la r d o c u m e n t . T h a t i s y o u r n a m e o b v i o u s ly. I t i s y o u r d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Ms G c a b a s h e … A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: What - what does not change is that on the face of p a g e 3 Mr T h a b e t h e d i d ta k e a n o a t h b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a t h s a n d s a i d t h is is tr u e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s s o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o it is tr u e . I t is - it is n o t in i ti a l - n o t e v e r y p a g e i s in it i a l le d b u t h e c e r t a i n ly t o o k a n o a th i t s e e m s a n d s a i d t h e c o n t e n ts a r e tr u e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : S o w e w i ll a c c e p t th a t i t is a n a ff id a v i t f o r a l l i n t e n ts and purposes. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: 20 A n d t h a t i t is y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u s i g n e d o n 2 4 O c to b e r 2 0 1 9 ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . N o w in t h i s a ffi d a v i t I a m g o i n g s tr a ig h t to paragraph 3 because you say at paragraph 3: “ Yo u d e p o s e to t h i s a ff id a v i t to r e c t i fy s t a t e m e n ts made in your previous a ffi d a v i ts Page 127 of 200 which upon 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 subsequent r e f l e c ti o n by y o u r s e lf c o u ld come a c r o s s a s m is l e a d in g . ” M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e fi x i n g t h i n g s h e r e . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w I a m a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . P le a s e r e a d p a r a g r a p h 4 in t o t h e r e c o r d . I t is y o u r d o c u m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 4 s a y s : “ W h a t I s e e k t o r e c ti fy fr o m m y p r e v i o u s s t a te m e n t is t h a t I h a d p r e v i o u s l y d e n ie d a n y d i r e c t w i th 10 m e m b e r s o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly. ” ADV GCABASHE: Good. Let us pause there. The rest you are going t o s p e a k t o . I j u s t w a n t e d th a t o n r e c o r d , b u t t h a t i s th e s u b j e c t m a t t e r r e a l ly … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: O f th is d o c u m e n t . Te ll u s a b o u t y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m i ly. M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h is - t h i s s t a te m e n t c o m e s o n t o s a y - y o u s e e t h e d i ff ic u l ty I h a v e n o t r e a d t h e r e s t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l, b u t y o u r e a d i t b e f o r e y o u t o o k t h e o a t h b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a t h s ? MR THABETHE: Ye s . I am saying so because she says post there e x p l a i n to u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: B e c a u s e I w a n t to e x p la in i t i n - i n c o n t e x t w it h t h e Page 128 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 f o ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u - y o u - I d o n o t th in k s h e m e a n s t h a t s h e is r e s tr ic ti n g y o u if w h a t f o l lo w s . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll d e a l w i th h e r q u e s ti o n . M R T H A B E T H E : W il l d e a l w i t h t h a t . O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: S h e w a n t s y o u t o t e l l t h e C o m m is s i o n a b o u t y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m il y. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : O n ly b e c a u s e i t i s y o u r a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s y o u r e x p e r i e n c e t h a t y o u a r e r e la t in g . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e t h e r y o u h a v e w r i t t e n e v e r y d e ta il h e r e o r n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u r e x p e r i e n c e is w h a t y o u a r e r e l a ti n g to t h e C h a ir m a n . T h a t is a l l I a m a s k i n g y o u t o d o . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : S t a r t w h e r e y o u b e li e v e y o u s h o u l d s t a r t . 20 MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir m y - m y in t e r a c ti o n w a s i n - in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n o f t h e m e e t in g r e fe r r e d to in t h is r e g a r d . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o . Si r y o u h a v e to b e c l e a r w h ic h m e e t in g r e f e r r e d to. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . H e n c e C h a ir t h e n - l e t m e t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u c a n r e fe r t o w h a t c o m e s a f t e r p a r a g r a p h 4 . Page 129 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h a t h e l p s y o u a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n s h e h a s p u t to you. M R T H A B E T H E : P u t to y o u . O k a y. T h a t i s c o r r e c t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR THABETHE: C h a ir th e r e - t h e r e w e r e a - a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s w h e r e I - I r e c e iv e d c a lls . 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : F r o m w h o Mr T h a b e t h e ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir th a t is w h e r e m y d i ffi c u l ty i s , b e c a u s e i t b e c o m e s v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r m e to b e a b l e t o s a y w h o - w h o is th is p e r s o n who called me. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. L e t u s j u s t h e a r. J u s t t e ll - te ll - t e l l u s a n d t h e n w e c a n a s k q u e s t io n s . Yo u r e c e i v e d c a l ls … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I r e c e i v e d … CHAIRPERSON: And … M R T H A B E T H E : A c a ll C h a ir t h a t a m e e ti n g h a s b e e n o r g a n is e d f o r m e t o b e a b l e t o m e e t w i t h p e o p l e fr o m I n d i a r e g a r d i n g … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: Regarding the project. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t - r o u n d a b o u t w h a t ti m e a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h is c a ll t h a t y o u a r e t a l k in g a b o u t? MR THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 6 ? Page 130 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : Yo h . I a m tr y - I a m t r y i n g t o t h i n k C h a ir, b e c a u s e I I h a d t h e d i ff ic u l t n o w t o b e a b l e to g e t a c c e s s t o m y - m y p r e v i o u s s t a te m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : S o fo r m e t o b e a b l e t o e x a c t ly s a y w h e n w a s i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . I a m ju s t n a r r a ti n g t h e s to r y o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: Of what happened. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m s o m e b o d y. M R T H A B E T H E : Fr o m s o m e b o d y i n d i c a t in g t o m e - a - a n a d d r e s s w a s g iv e n to m e a f t e r w e h a v e - I h a v e a g r e e d th a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p le fr o m I n d ia w h o w o u l d w a n t t o t a lk to m e . CHAIRPERSON: S o s o m e b o d y c a ll e d y o u a n d s a i d th e r e w e r e p e o p l e fr o m I n d ia w h o w a n t e d t o m e e t w i th y o u ? MR THABETHE: W h o a r e i n th e c o u n tr y w h o w a n t t o m e e t y o u r e g a r d in g th e p r o j e c t . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u d id n o t a s k t h i s p e r s o n w h o h e w a s o r s h e was? 20 MR THABETHE: I m ig h t h a v e a s k e d t h a t ti m e C h a ir b u t I - I c a n n o t r e c a l l a n d r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly w h o t h a t p e r s o n w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. MR THABETHE: B e c a u s e a t t h a t p a r t ic u la r ti m e I w o u l d h a v e a s k e d w h o a r e y o u ? W h a t d o y o u w a n t? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 131 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Ye s , b u t th e p e r s o n e x p l a i n e d t o m e th a t h e - h e w a n ts m e t o c o m e a n d m e e t a g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o a r e c o m i n g f r o m P a r a s in I n d i a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: A n d - a n d t h e n th a t r i n g t h e b e l l t o m e t h a t I t h e n should meet these people. Then I agreed on the meeting and then I w a s g iv e n t h e - t h e a d d r e s s o f t h e m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e s a m e p e r s o n ? MR THABETHE: By the same person. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e s a m e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? MR THABETHE: Ye s . I t - i t w a s n o t t e l e p h o n e c a ll - c o n v e r s a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e y h a d f o ll o w e d u p a n d s a y a r e y o u - a r e y o u c o m i n g b e c a u s e I h e a r d - I w a s a r o u n d J o h a n n e s b u r g a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : T h e n I th e n a c c e p t e d t o c o m e a n d - a n d m e e t t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : Th e n I w e n t t o t h e a d d r e s s . Yo u - y o u w il l r e m e m b e r C h a ir I h a d r e fl e c t e d th a t I h a d n o t m e t b e f o r e b u t u p o n r e f l e c ti o n C h a ir I remember that I had - I had met people from Paras in - in an address 20 t h a t w a s g i v e n t o m e w h i c h c o m e s t o b e th e r e s i d e n c e o f - o f t h e G u p t a s . H e n c e th is a ffi d a v i t s a y s I n e e d t o c o r r e c t t h a t b e c a u s e I h a d b e e n t h e r e a n d I h a d m e t t h e P a r a s p e o p le i n th a t r e s i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: S o s o m e b o d y c a ll e d y o u a n d s a i d th e r e w e r e p e o p l e fr o m P a r a s w h o - fr o m I n d i a w h o w a n te d to m e e t w it h y o u ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 132 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h o t h a t p e r s o n w a s a - a s y o u speak now? M R T H A B E T H E : I - y e s . I w a s to ld b u t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w C h a ir w h o w a s t h e - th e p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u h a d - y o u d i d a s k a t th e ti m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t a - a m e m b e r o f t h e G u p ta f a m ily ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir, I - I p r e s u m e b e c a u s e t h e r e s i d e n c e w a s - h e n c e I - I w i ll h a v e to a d m i t t h a t I h a v e i n te r a c t e d w i t h th e m . M y - m y 10 s u p p o s i ti o n is t h a t i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a m e m b e r o f t h e G u p t a f a m ily. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . I a m tr y i n g to - t o f o ll o w b e c a u s e I t h in k w h a t y o u h a d a s k e d is t h a t M r Th a b e t h e m u s t j u s t t e ll m e t h e f u l l s t o r y o f h is in t e r a c ti o n w i th t h e G u p ta f a m il y. S o o r m a y b e h e h a s n o t y e t . M a y b e - m a y - j u s t te ll m e t h e f u l l s t o r y. I m e t th e m o n t h is o c c a s io n . I met them on that o c c a s i o n . I m e t t h e m o n t h a t o c c a s io n . I m e t th e m o n ly o n c e a n d th is w a s t h e c o n t e x t . T h is is h o w th e m e e ti n g c a m e a b o u t . MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir t h a t i s t h e d i ffi c u l ty I h a v e b e c a u s e th e - t h e d ir e c t - I - I - t h e d ir e c t in t e r a c ti o n w a s f o r t h e m t o b e a b le t o s a y 20 t o t a k e m e t o t h e r e s i d e n c e a n d m e e t w it h t h e p e o p le fr o m - fr o m I n d i a w h ic h w a s P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR THABETHE: So … C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u m e e t o n l y o n c e w i t h s o m e b o d y o r p e o p le fr o m t h e G u p t a f a m ily ? Page 133 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Is i t o n l y o n c e t h a t y o u m e t w i t h o n e o r m o r e m e m b e r s o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly ? M R T H A B E T H E : I - I t h i n k t h is - t h i s - t h i s w a s th e o n ly m e e ti n g w h e r e I h a d a d ir e c t in t e r a c ti o n w h e n - w h e n I w a s c o m in g t o m e e t th e p e o p l e fr o m - fr o m P a r a s . CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s ta lk a b o u t th e m e e ti n g s . Let us leave out in t e r a c ti o n s th a t m ig h t n o t h a v e t a k e n t h e f o r m o f a m e e ti n g . MR THABETHE: Meet … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f m e e ti n g s . M R T H A B E T H E : M e e t i n g s C h a ir in - in a - i n a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s i n - what - what did we call these SABC …? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b r e a k fa s t . MR THABETHE: The breakfast shows. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR THABETHE: I do not know if I should say I have met them there because … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u - y o u w e r e p r e s e n t a t s o m e o f th e b r e a k f a s t shows … 20 MR THABETHE: I was - I was present in some … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h e y w e r e p r e s e n t to o ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t i n t e r m s o f a n a c t u a l m e e t in g w h e r e i t w a s y o u r s e l f a n d o n e o r m o r e m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y w i th o r w i th o u t o th e r p e o p l e b u t t h e i d e a b e i n g y o u a r e in a m e e ti n g w h e r e th e y a r e Page 134 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 p a r t ic ip a ti n g a n d y o u a r e p a r t ic ip a ti n g . O t h e r th a n b r e a k f a s t - th o s e breakfast shows. M R T H A B E T H E : T h i s - t h is w a s t h e o n l y m e e ti n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s th e o n ly m e e ti n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h i c h m e m b e r o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y w a s p r e s e n t a t th is p a r tic u l a r m e e ti n g o r w h ic h m e m b e r s ? MR THABETHE: Yo u s e e C h a ir I d o n o t w a n t to m a k e a m is t a k e o f s a y in g w h i c h - w h ic h o n e b e c a u s e it i s - t h e y - t h e y a r e v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o 10 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t … M R T H A B E T H E : To … CHAIRPERSON: W a s i t o n e o r w a s i t m o r e t h a n o n e m e m b e r o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly ? M R T H A B E T H E : I t w a s o n e p e r s o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s o n e p e r s o n ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h i s is t h e p e r s o n t h a t in tr o d u c e d m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : To t h e p e r s o n t h a t I w a s s u p p o s e d to m e e t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e a t th e G u p t a r e s id e n c e i n S a x o n w o ld ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h ic h y e a r i t w a s o r c a n Page 135 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 you? M R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t w a s - i t w a s n o t v e r y l o n g C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e y t h e y - w h a t t h e y w a n t e d m e t o d o w a s to a s s is t t h e m w i t h w o r k p e r m i ts . T h a t - t h a t w a s t h e w h o l e i d e a o f - o f t h e m e e ti n g w h y t h e y w a n t e d m e b e c a u s e t h e y w a n te d t o b r i n g i n p e o p le a n d th e n m y r e s p o n s ib il i ty w a s t o a s s is t t h e m t o g e t t h e w o r k p e r m it s w h ic h … CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t m y q u e s ti o n i s , a r e y o u s a y i n g y o u c a n ’ t remember year which it was when you had th is –only one m e e ti n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . 10 MR THABETHE: I t h i n k t h e y e a r C h a ir, w a s 2 0 1 3 . CHAIRPERSON: 2013? MR THABETHE: J a i f I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d th e p e r s o n w h o h a d c a l l e d y o u t o t e l l y o u a b o u t t h i s m e e t i n g , d i d t h a t p e r s o n a t t e n d t h e m e e ti n g a s w e l l? M R T H A B E T H E: I – y o u s e e th a t ’s w h a t I d i d n o t c h e c k b e c a u s e w h e n I a r r iv e d I d i d n o t c h e c k i f y o u w e r e t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s c a l li n g m e b u t w h e n I a r r iv e d th e r e , I w a s w e l c o m e d b y s o m e b o d y w h o t o o k m e t o t h e m e e ti n g a n d i n t r o d u c e d m e t o t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n t h e m e e t in g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s y o u s a i d y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r th e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o c a l le d y o u b u t y o u th i n k i t w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e G u p ta f a m ily … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR THABETHE: I t h i n k i t w a s – y e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , M s G c a b a s h e ? ADV GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir s h e r e m in d e d m e t h a t I ’ d s w i t c h e d t h e m ic o ff to a l lo w y o u to b e v e r y a u d ib le a s y o u w e r e a s k i n g M r Page 136 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 T h a b e th e q u e s t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . M r T h a b e th e , m a y b e I s h o u ld t u r n t h is a r o u n d a n d g o b a c k – I’ ll c o m e b a c k t o t h e is s u e s y o u ’ v e j u s t r a is e d , I ’ m j u s t tr y i n g t o j o g y o u r m e m o r y a s w e ll . I f w e g o b a c k t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u m a d e i n r e s p e c t o f th e a s s e t fo r f e i t u r e m a t te r t h e r e y o u s a id t h a t – a t fir s t y o u s a i d i n 2 0 1 8 th a t y o u h a d b e e n n e g o t ia t in g w i th M r Va r u n G u p ta , m a y b e I s h o u l d t a k e y o u to th a t p a r a g r a p h s o th a t w e a r e c l e a r a b o u t w h a t y o u s a i d . I t s h o u l d b e o n p a g e 11 , t h e r e a r e t w o p a g e s t h a t I w a n t y o u t o 10 h o l d o n t o p a g e 11 o f E x h i b i t H H 1 0 A C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Th a t ’s t h e 2 0 1 8 a ffi d a v i t a n d th e n i f y o u h o l d o n t o p a g e 11 I a ls o t h e n w a n t y o u to g o t o p a g e 111 . CHAIRPERSON: O h h a n d o n I t h o u g h t I d i d n ’ t h a v e i t – o k a y w h a t ’s t h e p a g e 111 ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e fir s t o n e is 11 C h a i r ma n , th e s e c o n d o n e is 111 . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. A n d C h a ir m a n I w o u ld y o u r e fe r t o t h e c o p y r i g h t a t t h e b a c k b e c a u s e it ’s t h e c l e a r o n e , y o u k n o w t h e r e ’s t h e o n e th a t ’s a 20 b i t f u z z y b u t th e s a m e n u m b e r i n g i s u s e d o n t h e o n e th a t t h e a t to r n e y s p r o v i d e d u s ju s t s o w e c o u ld h a v e a c le a r c o p y, p a g e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: O k a y s o f o r n o w I m u s t j u s t l o o k a t 111 ? 111 , a s lo n g a s y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t th e c l e a r o n e C h a ir m a n , b e c a u s e i t’s e a s y t o r e a d . CHAIRPERSON: J a i t is c l e a r. Page 137 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n o f c o u r s e 11 . Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: G o o d s o t h e fir s t t h in g I w a n t to e x p l o r e w i t h y o u is , i n 2 0 1 8 y o u s p o k e a b o u t – j u s t g iv e m e o n e m i n u t e M r Th a b e t h e – a n d t h a t w il l b e a t p a g e 111 y o u s p o k e a b o u t – a t p a r a g r a p h 4 7 , t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e Vr e d e p r o j e c t a n d y o u s a y h e r e t h a t Es t in a w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y Va r u n G u p t a a n d S a n je e v G a u t a m a n d P a r a w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y G a je n d r a K u m a r, t h a t ’s w h a t y o u w r i t e i n 2018. 10 MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e n i n 2 0 1 9 y o u g iv e t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n a ffi d a v it , t h a t ’s t h e p a g e 11 , I h a v e r e f e r r e d y o u t o . MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: “Before T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 , y o u s a y, I continue, I need t o r e fe r the Commission to p a r a g r a p h 4 7 o f m y a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t in w h ic h I e r r o n e o u s ly s t a te d th a t ” , A n d t h e n y o u r e fe r t o th a t p a r a g r a p h th a t y o u h a d m e t Va r u n . MR THABETHE: 20 ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . Yo u s a y h e r e , “ T h e r e f e r e n c e to E s ti n a b e in g r e p r e s e n t e d b y Mr Va r u n Gupta is not correct”, MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . Paragraph 34, “ M r Va r u n G u p ta n e v e r r e p r e s e n te d Es ti n a in a n y o f th e Page 138 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 n e g o ti a ti o n s or d is c u s s i o n s which I had with E s ti n a ’s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o r d u r i n g a n y o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w h ic h E s ti n a m a d e to t h e D e p a r t m e n t . i n a l l th e c o n t a c t t h a t I h a d w i t h E s t i n a r e g a r d i n g t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t, E s t in a w a s m a in ly r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r S a n j e e v G a u t a m a n d M r K a m a l Va s r a m ” . MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. E tc e te r a , e tc e te r a , o n p a g e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , p a r a g r a p h 3 5 y o u s a y, 10 “ Yo u o n ly m e t Mr Va r u n G u p t a w h e n y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d o n t h e 14th of February 2018”. MR THABETHE: A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I j u s t w a n t t o s u m m a r is e w h a t w e ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t. S o fir s t o f a l l y o u t e ll – y o u d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v i t th a t s a y s th is m a n I h a v e m e t d u r i n g n e g o t ia t io n s , 2 0 1 8 . MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . 2 0 1 9 y o u c h a n g e y o u r m in d , y o u ’v e m a d e a n e r r o r y o u ’v e n e v e r m e t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n . To d a y w e h a v e a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m y o u o n Fr id a y t h a t a d m i ts t o k n o w i n g t h e G u p ta s . 20 M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir le t m e t a l k t o t h a t , it ’s a v e r y d i ffi c u l t t h in g w h e n I m a d e th e fir s t a ff id a v i t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e fo r e y o u c o n ti n u e M r T h a b e t h e , Ms G c a b a s h e I m u s t j u s t m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s ti o n . Th e r e fe r e n c e t o t h e G u p ta fa m i ly c e r t a in ly t h a t I m a d e w h e n I p u t s o m e q u e s t io n s t o h i m r a is e d t h e G u p ta f a m ily w h ic h h a s – a l o t o f r e f e r e n c e Page 139 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 h a s b e e n m a d e h e r e , w h ic h w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r il y i n c l u d e a n y b o d y b y t h e s u r n a m e G u p t a w h o m a y n o t b e p a r t o f th a t f a m ily, w e a r e n o t a t cross-purposes? ADV GCABASHE: N o s ir b e c a u s e M r Va r u n G u p t a i s n e p h e w t o t h e s e n i o r s w h o – w h e r e r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o . CHAIRPERSON: ADV Ye s . GCABASHE: Ev e r y now and again, A j a y, A t u l, To n y … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O h o k a y I j u s t w a n t e d t o s a y, w h e n e v e r I r e fe r to t h e G u p t a f a m il y I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e th r e e b r o t h e r s , I w a s n ’ t r e f e r r in g t o a n y b o d y e ls e i n t h e q u e s t io n s I p u t t o y o u . ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: S o h e ’s f r o m t h e s a m e h o u s e h o l d s ir. Ye s . And he was one of the persons charged when Mr T h a b e th e w a s c h a r g e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y n o t t h a t’s f i n e , y o u m a y c o n t in u e t o g iv e y o u r a n s w e r M r Th a b e t h e . M R T H A B E T H E: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C h a ir, I th i n k i n m y a ffi d a v i t t h a t I d e p o s e d t o , t o N PA i t w a s a m e r e m i s ta k e o f s w a p p i n g 20 n a m e s b e c a u s e t h e o n ly t w o p e o p l e t h a t I h a d d e a lt w i t h w a s G a j e n d r a a n d K u m a r, t h o s e w e r e t h e k e y p e o p l e t h a t w e ’v e b e e n n e g o t i a t i n g w i th in t e r m s o f th e Vr e d e D a ir y. S o th e – Va r u n G u p t a I w a s s e e i n g h i m f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e w h e n we were arrested, I had never seen him, he had never known me at that ti m e , h e n c e in t h e a ff id a v i t t o th e C o m m i s s io n I w a s j u s t c o r r e c ti n g t h a t Page 140 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t o s a y, t h is i s n o t th e p e r s o n b e c a u s e I h a d r a is e d t h e is s u e a l s o w i t h m y l a w y e r s a t th a t ti m e , t h a t w e w e r e t o c o r r e c t t h a t b e fo r e g o i n g t o C o u r t , u n f o r t u n a t e l y th e n th e c a s e w a s w i t h d r a w n b e c a u s e w e w e r e g o i n g to c o r r e c t th is b e c a u s e w e h a d a l s o p ic k e d i t u p a ll o f u s , t h a t w e h a d m a d e a m i s ta k e a n d I h a d a lr e a d y c o m m u n ic a t e d t o t h e l a w y e r s , t h a t n e e d s to b e c o r r e c te d . S o h e n c e t h e n I h a d to c o r r e c t th is i n t h e a ffi d a v i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o s a y I h a d n o t m e t w it h h i m , I s a w h i m f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e when we got arrested. 10 ADV GCABASHE: How do you make a mistake with a surname such as G u p t a o n l y b e c a u s e t h e y ’ r e a f a m i ly w h o h a v e b e c o m e w e ll k n o w n in S o u th A f r i c a . W e a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t w a y, w a y, w a y b a c k , w e ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t 2 0 1 8 a n d 2 0 1 9 , w e ’ r e i n 2 0 1 9 n o w, ju s t l a s t y e a r. H o w does anybody make that kind of error? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir I d id t h e m i s ta k e , I r e a d th e a ffi d a v i t , I w e n t t h r o u g h i t a n d i t w a s q u it e a le n g th y a ff i d a v i t a n d l a te r w h e n I w a s a t h o m e t h e n I p i c k e d i t u p a f t e r w e h a d s u b m i tt e d i t t h a t I h a d m a d e a m is t a k e a n d I t h e n w a n te d i t t o b e c o r r e c t e d . U n f o r t u n a t e ly, i t c a m e a c r o s s b e fo r e I h a d a n o p p o r tu n i t y t h a t – I c h e c k e d w i t h m y l a w y e r s a t 20 t h a t ti m e t h a t e v e n i f t h e c a s e h a s b e e n – c a n I c o r r e c t t h a t , th e y s a id n o i t ’s g o n e , y o u c a n ’ t c o r r e c t it a n y m o r e . I w is h e d t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o r r e c t e d C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: N o w t h e i m p r e s s i o n y o u ’v e a l w a y s g iv e n u s i s th a t y o u r e a lly d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e G u p t a f a m il y a t a l l, a m I n o t c o r r e c t , b e f o r e y o u f il e d t h is a ff i d a v i t – s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t . Page 141 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E: J a C h a ir, k n o w in g t h e m a n d d o i n g b u s in e s s w i th t h e m is t w o d i ff e r e n t t h in g s I h a d b e e n i n a c ti v i ti e s w h e r e t h e y w e r e b u t w e ’v e n e v e r in t e r a c t e d i n b u s i n e s s i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o je c t t h a t w e ’r e t a lk in g t o . ADV GCABASHE: B u t y o u a r e p r e p a r e d to g o t o a m e e ti n g , y o u s a y t h is m e e ti n g w a s w i t h In d i a n p e r s o n – p e r s o n s o f I n d ia n d e c e n t w h o w a n t e d t o m e e t y o u in J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d t h e n y o u t h e n fi n d y o u r s e lf a t S a x o n w o ld a t th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e ? MR THABETHE: 10 J a C h a ir, i f i t w e r e n o w, it w i ll b e a d i ff e r e n t s t o r y. A t t h a t p a r ti c u la r ti m e y o u w o u l d o r g a n is e m e e ti n g s , y o u ’ d fi n d s o m e o f t h e m e e t in g s in o ff ic e s , y o u fi n d s o m e o f t h e m e e ti n g s – I ’v e h a d m e e ti n g s i n h o t e ls , I’ v e h a d m e e ti n g s i n g u e s t h o u s e s , s o m e o f t h e m e e ti n g s i n h o u s e s s o i t d id n o t r i n g a n y b e ll to m e t o s a y, w h y a r e y o u , w h y a r e y o u h a v i n g a m e e ti n g i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r r e s id e n c e ? CHAIRPERSON: B u t I c a n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d t h a t M r T h a b e t h e , y o u a r e t h e head of a department in a provincial government. MR THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Yo u a r e – y o u h a v e a p r o j e c t , a b i g p r o j e c t Vr e d e F a r m P r o j e c t . S o m e b o d y c a l ls y o u a n d s a y s P a r a s p e o p l e w a n t t o m e e t 20 y o u , w h y d o n ’ t y o u s a y, t h e y m u s t c o m e a n d m e e t m e i n m y o ff ic e , w h y must you meet them in Joburg? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir th a t i s p o s s i b l e , w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d i s t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o c h e c k s o m e t h i n g w i t h m e i f I … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: T h e y m u s t c o m e t o y o u r o ff ic e w h y d o n ’t t h e y c o m e t o y o u r o ffi c e a n d w h y d o n ’ t y o u te ll th e m t h e y m u s t m a k e a n Page 142 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a p p o i n t m e n t a n d c o m e li k e e v e r y b o d y a n d c o m e a n d s e e m e – a n d s e e y o u a t w o r k ? T h e y w a n t y o u t o c o m e a n d s e e t h e m in a n o t h e r p r o v i n c e . M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir w e c o m e t o J o b u r g , w e c o m e t o Pr e to r i a i n a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s t o h a v e m e e ti n g s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t th e y w a n t to m e e t y o u , w h y d o n ’ t th e y c o m e t o B lo e m f o n te in , w h y d o n ’ t th e y m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o c o m e a n d s e e y o u p r o p e r ly ? W h y m u s t y o u m e e t t h e m j u s t in c a s e y o u a r e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g ? I s t h e r e s o m e t h in g I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d , p l e a s e h e l p m e ? MR THABETHE: 10 I d o n ’ t s e e a n y th i n g w r o n g i n m e e t in g p e o p le o th e r t h a n y o u r o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON: B u t is n ’ t t h e – n o , n o I ’ m n o t s a y i n g t h a t y o u c a n ’ t m e e t p e o p l e o t h e r t h a n in y o u r o ff ic e b u t t h is is a b o u t w o r k a n d t h e s e p e o p l e – I m e a n P a r a s p e o p le , y o u h a d o n ly m e t th e m in In d ia i s n ’ t i t, b e f o r e th is , w h e n y o u w e n t to I n d i a o r h a d y o u m e t t h e m s u b s e q u e n t ly ? MR THABETHE: C h a i r b y t h i s ti m e t h e r e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n p e o p l e fr o m I n d i a w h o w e r e w o r k i n g a t t h e p r o je c t if I c a n – if I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll b u t i t’s a lo n g t i m e a g o . CHAIRPERSON: M R TH A B E T H E : 20 Mmm. B u t I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir, i f I w a s n ’ t a ll o w e d t o m e e t p e o p l e o t h e r th a n my o ffi c e . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , I’ m n o t s a y in g y o u ’r e n o t a ll o w e d it ju s t s e e m s s tr a n g e to m e t h a t t h e y w a n t to m e e t a n d y o u a g r e e d t o m e e t i n a n o t h e r p r o v in c e . MR THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir w e d o m e e t i n g s in a n y o t h e r p r o v i n c e . S o y o u l e a v e t h e F r e e S t a te t o m e e t – I d o n ’ t k n o w Page 143 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d c a ll y o u r c l ie n ts t o m e e t th e m i n G a u te n g a b o u t w o r k t h a t is o r a p r o je c t t h a t is r e a l ly in t h e Fr e e S t a t e . W e l l I’ m t r y in g t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e i d e a o f w h y d o n ’ t t h e y c o m e to y o u , y o u a r e th e h e a d o f th e d e p a r t m e n t t h e p r o j e c t is t a k i n g p la c e i n t h e Fr e e S t a te , y o u r o ffic e i s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e , w h y c a n ’ t th e y – w h y a r e t h e y n o t m a k i n g a n a p p o i n t m e n t t o m e e t y o u i n th e Fr e e S t a t e ? 10 MR THABETHE: Chair I was in Joburg. CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s c o i n c id e n ta l? MR THABETHE: I w a s in J o b u r g a n d I h a d a c c e p te d b e c a u s e I k n e w I w a s g o i n g t o b e in J o b u r g , t h e n th e y s a i d i t ’s f in e o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y I w il l b e a b le t o a t t e n d t h e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: O k a y fi n e a lr i g h t . N o w I’ d li k e t o a s s is t y o u i n tr y i n g t o g e t th e ti m e li n e fo r t h i s m e e t in g r ig h t th a t th e C h a ir m a n h a s b e e n e x p l o r in g with you. MR THABETHE: A D V G C A B A S H E: O k a y C h a ir. It ’s u s e f u l t o t h i n k b a c k to w h e n y o u s i g n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t w i th E s ti n a in 2 0 1 2 o k a y, t h a t ’s a fi x e d p o i n t in ti m e , 2 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 2 w a s t h e M O U b e t w e e n E s ti n a a n d P a r a s , t h e 5 t h / 7 t h o f J u ly 20 w a s y o u r a g r e e m e n t w it h E s ti n a a n d y o u k n o w D e c e m b e r y o u t h e n g o t t h e l a n d is s u e s o r te d o u t , d id t h i s m e e ti n g ta k e p la c e a n y w h e r e b e fo r e D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . N o w y o u r p o i n t o f r e f e r e n c e t h e r e is th a t ’s w h e n y o u g o t t h e Vr e d e l a n d d o c u m e n t a ti o n s o r t e d o u t . I’ m j u s t tr y in g to h e l p y o u r e m e m b e r s o t h a t ’s 2 0 1 2 ? MR THABETHE: C h a i r i t ’s – I d o n ’t w a n t to c o m m i t o n l y t o fi n d t h a t i t Page 144 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 is n o t c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: C a n I ta k e y o u i n to 2 0 1 3 b e c a u s e in 2 0 1 3 th e r e a r e m e d i a r e p o r ts t h a t s u g g e s t t h a t y o u h a d a m e e t i n g s c h e d u l e d a t S a x o n w o ld a n d y o u m a y w a n t to lo o k a t t h e m e d i a b u n d le b u t I’ ll s i m p ly in t h e in t e r e s t o f t i m e r e a d t o y o u w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e . S o i t ’s t i m e l in e G u p t a m e e t in g s w i t h a n u m b e r o f p u b l ic f u n c ti o n a r i e s , in c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f , 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y, “ To n y G u p ta s c h e d u l e d t o m e e t P e t e r H O D a t S a x o n w o l d “ , A n d t h e p e r s o n w h o s e e m s t o h a v e s e t t h is m e e ti n g u p is Mr 10 A s h u C h a w l a fr o m S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s , d o e s t h is r i n g a b e ll a t a l l ? MR THABETHE: Chair the best thing for me would be – would have b e e n m y o w n d i a r y b e c a u s e to a g r e e o n s o m e b o d y e ls e ’s d i a r y th e n becomes a problem for me. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u d i d s a y, y o u th o u g h t t h e m e e t in g h a v e t a k e n p l a c e i n 2 0 1 3 … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR THABETHE: It s h o u l d h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So that might help. ADV GCABASHE: B u t th e i s s u e is , i t ’s n o t th e o n ly m e e ti n g M r T h a b e th e , s o t h e fi r s t o n e w a s o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 th e n e x t o n e 20 w a s t h e v e r y n e x t d a y, 1 s t o f F e b r u a r y b u t t h is ti m e y o u w e r e s c h e d u l e d t o m e e t To n y G u p t a a l o n g w i th M r Z w a n e a t S a x o n w o l d , d o e s t h i s r in g a b e ll a t a ll ? MR THABETHE: N o C h a ir, I’v e s e e n t h is b e f o r e , t h e m e d ia r e p o r ts t h e y a r e v e r y s tr a n g e to m e b e c a u s e a t a p a r t ic u l a r s t a g e I h a d a l s o tr i e d , m y s e l f to t r a c k w h a t – w h e r e h a d I b e e n o n t h o s e p a r t ic u l a r d a y s Page 145 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a n d th e y d id n o t c o in c i d e . S o i t ’s v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r m e to t a lk t o t h e m . ADV GCABASHE: Th e n e x t m e e t i n g M r T h a b e th e w a s o n t h e 1 8 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 3 , a g a i n y o u a c c e p t a m e e t in g w i t h M r To n y a n d y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to m e e t h i m w i t h M r Z w a n e . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a t a ll , d o y o u r e c a ll t h i s o n e a t a ll ? MR THABETHE: ADV GCABASHE: N o I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. I t w a s g o in g to b e a m e e ti n g a t S a x o n w o l d a g a i n . S o th is m e a n s y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o S a x o n w o l d th r e e ti m e s . M R T H A B E T H E: 10 N o I d o n ’t r e c a ll C h a ir b e c a u s e t h a t is w h y I h a d t o g o b a c k C h a i r a n d t h i n k p r o p e r l y b e c a u s e e v e n th is o n e I a m s a y in g I r e m e m b e r I h a d g o n e t h e r e , w h a t c a m e v e r y d i ff ic u l t fo r m e is e x a c t ly w h a t I’ m b e in g a s k e d n o w, w h o d i d y o u m e e t w i t h w h ic h I’ m n o t a b l e t o s a y, t h is is t h e G u p t a p e r s o n t h a t I h a d m e t w i t h . S o i t is a v e r y d i ff ic u l t o n e b u t a l l I r e m e m b e r is t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a q u e s t io n r a i s e d t o m e t h a t i f y o u h a v e b e e n i n to t h e r e s i d e n c e , i n a d m i t ti n g t o t h a t I s a y y e s , I b e l ie v e I h a v e b e e n i n t o t h is r e s i d e n c e a t th is m e e t in g I h a d b e e n . Th a t i s w h a t I w a n t e d t o c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s e e M s R o c k m a n w a s q u i t e fr a n k w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n , s h e to l d t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t s h e d id g o to S a x o n w o l d a n d 20 s h e h a d a m e e ti n g a t S a x o n w o l d a n d s h e t o l d u s w h a t s h e d is c u s s e d a t t h a t m e e t in g . S o w e h a v e e v i d e n c e o f o th e r p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n t h e r e a n d w h o a r e q u it e fr a n k w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n to S a x o n w o l d . S h e w e n t t h e r e i n A p r il 2 0 1 3 , th a t m ig h t a s s is t y o u , w o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n a b o u t t h e t i m e t h a t you would have been there? Page 146 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir, i n t h e m e d i a r e p o r t , t h e r e ’s a ls o r e p o r ts t h a t s a y s I h a v e b e e n t h e r e w i t h h e r, I ’v e n e v e r b e e n t h e r e w i th h e r. ADV GCABASHE: No she did not say she was there with you, she w e n t t h e r e , s h e w a s s i m p l y a d m i tt i n g to t h e f a c t th a t s h e h a d b e e n t h e r e a n d s h e t o ld t h e C h a ir m a n w h y, w h a t i t i s t h a t w a s b e i n g d is c u s s e d . MR THABETHE: N o C h a i I’ m r e f e r r i n g t o m e d ia r e p o r t s , i t’s m e d i a reports that says so. A D V G C A B A S H E: 10 C a n I th e n s a y t h is to y o u , w e h a v e o f c o u r s e , y o u m i g h t h a v e k n o w n o r h e a r d t h a t w e ’v e g o t a u n i t h e r e t h a t h a s t h e h a r d d is k d r i v e t h a t h a s c o ll e c t e d q u it e a f e w o f t h e s e G u p t a e m a ils a n d o n e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t th e y h a v e p r e p a r e d , a n d t h e r e ’s a n a ffi d a v it t h a t c o n fir m s t h e s te p s th a t w e r e t a k e n in p r e p a r i n g t h e s e s c h e d u le s . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s w e h a v e fr o m o u r u n i t , i s a m e e t i n g s c h e d u l e t h a t t h e y p ic k e d u p o ff t h e G u p ta e m a il s , o u r H D D d r iv e a n d th e s e p u t y o u a t S a x o n w o ld M r T h a b e t h e o n th e 1 5 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 , y o u w e r e m e e t i n g w i t h Mr To n y, y o u a c c e p t e d a n o th e r m e e ti n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: A D V G C A B A S H E: 20 Mr To n y G u p ta . To n y G u p t a s ir, i t is fr o m To n y G u p t a s o th e d e t a i ls a r e h e r e , I c a n g iv e y o u t h e r e f e r e n c e , t h e p a g e r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r s C h a ir, i t’s r e f e r e n c e b u n d le … [ i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: A D V G C A B A S H E: N o y o u … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . Can I just read through them? Ja just read through them. T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e y a r e p a r t o f t h e r e f e r e n c e Page 147 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 b u n d l e . T h e n e x t m e e ti n g y o u h a d a g a in w i t h Mr To n y G u p t a w o u l d b e – w a s o n t h e 2 n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 , t h e n e x t m e e ti n g y o u h a d w i t h M r G u p t a t h e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 , y e t a n o th e r m e e ti n g y o u h a d w i t h – o h y o u c a n c e l le d t h is o n e a c tu a l ly t h e r e w a s o n e th a t w a s s c h e d u l e d f o r t h e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 w a s c a n c e ll e d , P e t e r H O D . On the 1st of F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 y o u a c c e p te d a m e e ti n g w it h M r To n y G u p ta a n d t h e n a g a in A s h u G u p t a s e e m s t o – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n As h u C h a w l a s e e ms t o h a v e b e e n o n e o f t h e p e r s o n s o r g a n i s i n g t h e s e m e e ti n g s . Yo u c a n c e l l e d a lu n c h m e e ti n g – o r s o m e b o d y c a n c e ll e d a 10 lu n c h m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r To n y G u p t a th a t h a d b e e n scheduled for the 7th of February 2013. Accepted, lunch meeting Peter H O D o n t h e 7 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 , a c c e p te d m e e ti n g w it h P e te r H O D 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 , a c c e p te d m e e t in g w i th P e t e r H O D [i n d is t in c t] To n y G u p t a o n th e 1 5 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 3 , w h a t I’ d lik e t o – o h t h e r e ’s o n e m o r e o n th e 6 t h o f A p r il a g a i n w i th Mr To n y G u p t a 2 0 1 3 t h e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r Z w a n e m e t h i m a g a in o n th e 1 8 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e 2 7 t h o f A u g u s t – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n 2 0 1 3 a n d th e n 2 7 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 , t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s a s y o u c a n s e e . T h e r e ’s o n e i n 2 0 1 4 , t h e 1 7 t h o f M a r c h 2014 where Ashok Narayan was present. 20 S o y o u c a n s e e f r o m t h e G u p t a e m a il s t h a t y o u a r e r e p u te d to h a v e i n te r a c t e d w i t h M r To n y G u p ta i n p a r ti c u la r o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s i o n s . W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir i s i t t h e c o m p u t e r s a y in g s o b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h is is w h a t c o m e s fr o m t h e c o m p u t e r. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u w a n t t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 148 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV GCABASHE: Th e s e a r e m e e t in g s c h e d u le s th a t h a v e b e e n e x tr a c t e d o ff e m a i ls . N o w M r Th a b e t h e n o b o d y w o u l d a g r e e t o a m e e ti n g – t h e r e ’s n o c o m p u t e r t h a t ’s g o i n g t o d o th a t fo r y o u , y o u ’r e e i t h e r g o i n g t o g o t o t h e m e e t i n g o r n o t g o t o t h e m e e ti n g b u t s o m e b o d y ’s g o in g t o ta lk t o y o u a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g . S o d o n ’ t a s k a b o u t t h is b e in g a c o m p u t e r t a l k i n g t o a n o th e r c o m p u t e r, t h e s h o r t a n s w e r t o t h a t q u e s t io n is n o . T h i s is a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o g o a n d s e e Mr To n y G u p t a . MR THABETHE: 10 CHAIRPERSON: N o I d i d n ’ t C h a ir. I think what he was asking was the source of the in f o r m a ti o n . ADV GCABASHE: T h e s o u r c e o f i n f o r m a ti o n , C h a ir m a n a r e t h e G u p ta e m a i ls a n d t h is is a h a r d d r iv e i f t h a t’s w h a t y o u w a n t t o k n o w, a h a r d d r i v e t h a t is in o u r p o s s e s s i o n a s t h e C o m m is s i o n th a t h a s a ll t h e s e e m a i l tr a il s o n i t b u t t h e is s u e is , d i d y o u s p e a k to p e o p l e e i t h e r a t S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s o r a t S a x o n w o l d t o a r r a n g e t h e s e m e e t in g s a n d d i d y o u a t t e n d s o m e m e e ti n g s a n d n o t a t t e n d o th e r m e e ti n g s ? M R TH A B E T H E : J a C h a ir th e m e e t in g t h a t I h a v e p u t i n m y a ff id a v i t is t h e m e e ti n g t h a t I k n o w, t h e o th e r m e e ti n g s , I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir. 20 ADV GCABASHE: W h a t d id y o u d i s c u s s a t t h a t m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a r e p r e p a r e d t o a d m i t to M r T h a b e th e ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir i n th is m e e t in g t h e y w a n t e d m e t o a s s is t w i th w o r k p e r m i t s f o r t h e p e o p le fr o m I n d i a t o c o m e h e r e , w h ic h t h e n I h a d a s s is t e d th e m t h a t Es t in a s h o u l d a s s i s t t h e m , n o t t h e D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e th e y w o u l d n o t b e a b l e to w o r k w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t . S o I h a d Page 149 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t o e x p l a in t o t h e m w h a t Es t in a w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o i n o r d e r f o r t h e m to g e t w o r k p e r m i t s . T h a t w a s w h a t th e m e e ti n g w a s a ll a b o u t . ADV GCABASHE: M a y b e w e s h o u l d – le t m e t i d y t h is o n e u p , d id y o u d is c u s s p a y m e n ts to Es t in a w h e n y o u w e r e a t S a x o n w o l d o n t h e d a y that you say you were there? MR THABETHE: N o C h a ir, t h e in t e n ti o n o f t h e m e e t in g w a s f o r m e t o m e e t t h e p e o p le fr o m P a r a s th a t w a s th e i n te n ti o n o f t h e m e e t in g s o t h a t I c a n a s s is t th e m w i th w o r k p e r m i t s . ADV GCABASHE: 10 Yo u d i d n o t d is c u s s t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e R 8 4 m il li o n t h a t w a s o u ts t a n d i n g ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir i s s u e s o f p a y m e n t I w o u ld th e n d is c u s s d ir e c t ly w i t h t h e p e o p l e t h a t I w a s d e a l in g w i t h i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o j e c t , th o s e a r e t h e o n e s w h o w o u l d t h e n c o m e t o m e a n d d is c u s s is s u e s o f payment. ADV GCABASHE: w h o a r e th o s e p e o p l e M r T h a b e t h e ? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir I w a n t t o u s e t h e c o r r e c t n a m e , y o u s e e i t ’s v e r y d i ffic u lt t o r e m e m b e r w h o s e – it w a s K a m a l Va s r a m t h o s e a r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t I w o u l d d is c u s s is s u e s o f p a y m e n t w i t h th e m a n d G a j e n d r a K u m a r, t h o s e w e r e t h e tw o p e o p le t h a t w o u l d t h e n c o m e t o m e a n d s a y, 20 t h is p a y m e n t o r t h a t p a y m e n t. ADV GCABASHE: Yo u s a y th e y w o u l d c o m e t o y o u , d id t h e y c o m e t o y o u i n y o u r o ffi c e in B l o e m f o n t e i n ? M R T H A B E T H E: T h e y w o u l d c o m e C h a ir o r t h e y w o u l d m a k e t e l e p h o n e c a l ls t h o s e a r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t I w o u ld in t e r a c t w i t h . ADV GCABASHE: D i d y o u a t a n y p o i n t m e e t a n y o f t h e m in Page 150 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 Johannesburg? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d id C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e r e w o u l d th a t m e e ti n g t a k e p l a c e ? M R T H A B E T H E : I t w a s i n t h e ir o ff ic e C h a i r i n S a n d t o n . A D V G C A B A S H E: Th a t is t h e o ffi c e a t C a th e r in e S t r e e t t h a t y o u s a id … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : W a s f a mi li a r b e c a u s e y o u h a d b e e n th e r e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 ADV GCABASHE: And you remember I asked you if you were aware t h a t t h e o th e r G u p t a o ffi c e s w e r e in t h e s a m e o ff ic e b l o c k ? I a s k e d y o u t h is la s t t i m e . M R T H A B E T H E: J a I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir th e y m i g h t h a v e b e e n t h e r e b u t w h e n I w e n t t h e r e I h a d m e e ti n g s w i th t h e m . ADV GCABASHE: N o w y o u h a d m e e t in g s w i th M r K a m a l Va s r a m a n d Mr Kumar? MR THABETHE: K u m a r y e s t h e y a ls o h a v e b e e n t o o u r o ffi c e i n Bloemfontein. A D V G C A B A S H E : D i d y o u h a v e m e e t i n g s a t S a h a r a C o m p u te r s w i t h M r 20 Narayan – Ashok Narayan? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: D id a l l y o u r i n t e r a c t io n s w i t h M r N a r a y a n ta k e p l a c e in B l o e m f o n t e i n ? M R T H A B E T H E : In B l o e m f o n t e i n C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: H o w m a n y m e e ti n g s d i d y o u h a v e w i t h M r N a r a y a n Page 151 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a ft e r y o u r tr i p to I n d i a ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir n o t – n o t d ir e c t m e e ti n g s b u t I h a v e b e e n in m e e ti n g s w h e r e h e h a s b e e n . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e n t h e r e i s M r C h a w la h a v e y o u e v e r h e a r d o f M r C h a w l a ? A s h o k C h a w l a ? As h u I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C a n I – A - s - h - u a n d t h e n th e s u r n a m e is C h a w l a C - h - a - w - l- a ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir I a m tr y in g t o t h i n k th e r e w a s a – th e r e w a s a C h a w l a t h a t w e r e a r r e s t e d w i th ? CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . But you do not know whether his name was Ashu? M R T H A B E T H E : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r is t h e – is t h e s a m e o n e o r n o t . ADV GCABASHE: B u t y o u a c t u a ll y – i t i s n o t s o m e b o d y w h o y o u a r e f a m ili a r w i t h a t a l l? M R T H A B E T H E : I t is n o t p e o p l e th a t I h a v e b e e n in t e r a c ti n g w i th . ADV GCABASHE: T h a t is v e r y i n te r e s t in g b e c a u s e i f y o u g o t o Reference Bundle d at page 1486. MR THABETHE: Reference d? A D V G C A B A S H E : D 1 4 8 6 is t h e p a g e n u m b e r. D 1 4 8 6 . MR THABETHE: 1? 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : 1 4 8 6 M r T h a b e th e . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e t h e r e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t i s a l e t t e r a s y o u c a n s e e t h a t is w r i t te n o n t h e 2 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 a n d i t is w r i t te n b y As h u C h a w la a n d i t i s w r it t e n t o Page 152 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h e Vi s a C o u n s e ll o r H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r o f I n d i a J o h a n n e s b u r g S o u t h A fr ic a r e I n v i ta t io n L e t t e r fo r P e t e r T h a b e t h e . “Dear S ir / M a d a m . P l e a s e c o u l d y o u is s u i n g three m o n th business a s s is t w it h v is a for th e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d g u e s t s th e y w o u l d li k e t o v is it I n d i a f o r b u s i n e s s o p p o r t u n i ti e s ? T h e y a r e d u e to a r r iv e b e t w e e n 2 9 Fe b r u a r y a n d 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . B e lo w a r e t h e p a s s p o r t d e t a i ls . d e t a i ls , date Te c h n o l o g i e s 10 of M r P e te r Th a b e t h e p a s s p o r t is s u e , Limited date w il l of a s s is t r e q u ir e m e n t s w h ils t s t a y i n I n d i a . e x p i r y. with SES a ll the If r e q u ir e a n y f u r th e r d e t a i ls p le a s e d o n o t h e s i ta t e t o c o n t a c t m e . T h a n k s r e g a r d s As h u C h a w l a . ” Yo u k n o w n o t h in g a b o u t t h i s ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. W h a t I th in k is t h a t th e l e tt e r w a s w r it t e n about me. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t. M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 20 A D V G C A B A S H E: B u t t h e y g o t t h a t – y o u r p a s s p o r t d e t a il s fr o m whom? M R TH A B E T H E : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. W h a t I k n o w t h a t I h a v e b e e n to t h e E m b a s s y o f I n d i a i n o r d e r f o r m e to b e a b l e t o g e t a v is a . ADV GCABASHE: Mr T h a b e t h e a r e y o u s a y i n g th a t s o m e b o d y is r u n n in g a r o u n d w i t h y o u r p a s s p o r t d e ta il s a n d c a n r e a d i ly g iv e i t t o Page 153 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a n y b o d y e ls e . Yo u r p a s s p o r t d e ta ils ? M R T H A B E T H E: I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. B u t w h a t I k n o w is t h a t w h e n w e w e r e a r r a n g in g to g o t o In d i a th e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n m e a n d – a n d M r As h o k t h e n w e h a d c o l le c t e d o u r d e t a ils , w e fo r w a r d e d t h e m t o I n d ia . I a m n o t s u r e h o w it c a m e a b o u t t h a t i t la n d e d b u t I h a d m a d e t h a t i n f o r m a t io n a v a i la b le b e c a u s e I h a d to p r o v id e i t . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h o m d id y o u p r o v i d e y o u r d e t a i ls to ? M R T H A B E T H E: I h a d p r o v i d e d m y d e t a ils to P a r a s . I h a d p r o v id e d my d e t a i ls t o t h e E m b a s s y o f I n d i a a n d o u r o w n E m b a s s y in – o f S o u t h 10 A fr ic a i n In d i a . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o w M r A s h u C h a w l a h a s g o t y o u r p a s s p o r t d e t a ils a n d h e is t h e o n e w h o is w r i ti n g t o t h e H i g h C o m m i s s io n t o tr y a n d a r r a n g e fo r y o u t o v is i t I n d i a . Yo u s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w M r C h a w l a number 1 ne? MR THABETHE: N o I d i d n o t C h a ir. H e ju s t w r o t e o n m y – w e ll n o t e v e n o n m y b e h a l f . H e w r o te a b o u t m e . ADV GCABASHE: It s o u n d s v e r y i m p r o b a b l e M r Th a b e t h e e s p e c ia ll y b e c a u s e w e a r e d e a l in g h e r e w i t h y o u r p e r s o n a l d e t a i l. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir – C h a ir I h a d g i v e n m y p a s s p o r t d e t a i ls t o 20 P a r a s . I h a d g iv e n my p a s s p o r t d e t a il s to th e E m b a s s y o f In d i a . I h a d g iv e n m y p a s s p o r t d e ta ils to o u r o w n E m b a s s y. N o w r e m e m b e r h e r e I w a s u s in g a n o ffic ia l p a s s p o r t w h ic h m e a n s y o u – y o u m a y n o t g iv e a s y o u w is h y o u r o w n o ffi c i a l p a s s p o r t b e c a u s e a l l o ff ic ia l p a s s p o r t w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k y o u h a v e t o d e p o s i t i t y o u d o n o t k e e p i t w i th y o u . A n d y o u o n l y u s e it f o r o ffic i a l p u r p o s e s . S o t h e s e d e t a il s h o w t h e y g o t h o l d Page 154 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 o f t h e m th e r e c o u l d b e – I d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Mr T h a b e th e t h i s l e t t e r i s fr o m S E S Te c h n o l o g i e s L i m i t e d a n d it is w r i t t e n b y A s h u C h a w l a a n d i t s a y s : P l e a s e c o u l d y o u – i t is a d d r e s s e d t o t h e H i g h C o m m i s s i o n o f I n d i a t o t h e Vis o r Vis a C o u n s e l l o r H i g h C o m m is s i o n o f I n d i a J o h a n n e s b u r g r e I n v i t a ti o n L e tt e r f o r P e te r Th a b e t h e . “Dear S ir / M a d a m . P l e a s e c o u l d y o u a s s is t w it h is s u i n g th r e e m o n t h – a t h r e e m o n th b u s in e s s v i s a f o r t h e a b o v e m e n t i o n e d g u e s ts ” 10 I t s a y s g u e s t b u t th e o n ly – t h e r e is o n ly o n e g u e s t m e n t i o n e d o r p e r s o n m e n ti o n e d a b o v e a n d th a t is y o u r s e lf . A n d th e n b u t : “they would o p p o r t u n i ti e s ? lik e to visit India for b u s in e s s T h e y a r e d u e t o a r r iv e o n t h e 2 9 February to 3 March 2012. B e lo w a r e t h e p a s s p o r t d e t a i ls . ” T h e o n l y p a s s p o r t d e t a ils a r e g i v e n b e l o w a r e y o u r p a s s p o r t d e t a i ls . S o t h is person is w r i t in g t o s o m e b o d y i n t h e o ff ic e s of the High C o m m i s s i o n o f In d ia i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d f a c i li t a ti n g y o u r tr ip to In d ia . Yo u s a y – a n d h e h a s g o t y o u r p a s s p o r t d e t a i ls a n d k n o w s w h e n y o u 20 w i ll a r r i v e th e r e a n d s o o n a n d h e i s a s k i n g t h a t a t h r e e m o n t h b u s i n e s s v is a b e i s s u e d . Yo u s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w h o w c o m e h e d id t h a t ? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w. W h a t I k n o w w h e n I g o to a n d E m b a s s y t o a p p ly f o r a n o ffi c i a l v i s a t o v i s i t I b r i n g m y o w n l e t te r f r o m t h e P r o v in c e t h a t g iv e s m e p e r m i s s io n t o g o t h e r e a n d t h a t is t h e le t t e r t h e n I g o th e r e a n d f il l a ll t h e n e c e s s a r y f o r m a n d d o e v e r y t h in g t h a t is Page 155 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 r e q u ir e d . T h is w il l – l e tt e r w o u l d n o t s e r v e m e a n y p u r p o s e i n t e r m s o f d o i n g a t r i p to I n d ia . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t n e e d i t? M R T H A B E T H E : I d id n o t n e e d i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E: M r Th a b e t h e s o y o u w e r e n o t m e e t in g – b a c k t o S a x o n w o ld t o t h e m e e t in g th a t y o u a r e a c k n o w l e d g in g . Yo u d id n o t m e e t a n y p e r s o n s y o u h a d p r e v io u s ly m e t e i th e r a t P a r a s o r i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h e n y o u a t t e n d e d t h i s m e e t in g . 10 Th e s e w e r e n e w fa c e s c o m p le t e l y ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir [ n o t s p e a k in g i n t o m ic r o p h o n e ] . ADV GCABASHE: Microphone. M R T H A B E T H E : M y a p o l o g y C h a ir. T h e p e o p l e t h a t I w a s m e e ti n g is n o t o n e o f th o s e p e o p le t h a t I h a d m e t b e f o r e . W h a t t h e y h a d e x p l a i n e d t o m e w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e t e c h n i c a l p e o p l e t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m in g t o – to a s s is t w i t h t h e p r o je c t . ADV GCABASHE: D i d t h e y e x p l a i n w h a t f o r m t h a t a s s is t a n c e w a s g o i n g t o b e ta k i n g ? M R T H A B E T H E: 20 W e d id n o t g o i n t o t h e d e t a i ls C h a ir. Th e y j u s t s a i d t h e y h a v e b e e n a s k e d – th e y h a v e b e e n g i v e n p e r m is s i o n b u t w h e n th e y a r e h e r e t h e ir v is a w a s n o t a w o r k p e r m i t f o r t h e m . They needed to a p p ly f o r a w o r k p e r m i t b e c a u s e w h a t t h e y w e r e c o m i n g t o d o w a s w o r k related. A D V G C A B A S H E: S o t h e d i s c u s s i o n y o u h a d w i t h t h e m w a s t h a t th e y w o u ld h a v e t o g o b a c k h o m e a n d a p p ly f o r a w o r k p e r m i t fr o m h o m e . I s Page 156 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t h a t th e d is c u s s io n y o u h a d w it h th e m ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a w h a t I h a d a s k e d t h e m C h a i r th a t E s ti n a is t h e o n e w h o is s u p p o s e d t o r e l e a s e a l e t t e r. Because when you do a work p e r m it t h e e n ti ty t h a t y o u g o i n g t o b e w o r k i n g f o r m u s t d o i n c o n fir m a t io n a n d g iv e t h e t i m e li n e s fo r t h i s p e r s o n to b e is s u e d a w o r k p e r m it . T h e r e fo r e t h e D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld n o t d o t h a t . T h e n E s ti n a w a s s u p p o s e d to d o t h a t a n d a s s is t th e m t o g e t th e ir w o r k p e r m i t . ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u c o u l d e a s i ly h a v e g iv e n th e m t h is a d v i c e o v e r t h e t e l e p h o n e h a d t h e y s i m p ly t o ld y o u w h y t h e y w a n t e d y o u t o 10 c o m e t o – a m e e t in g i n S a x o n w o ld . MR THABETHE: C h a ir i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e a s y i f I h a d g o t a ll t h e d e t a i ls t o s a y n o , n o , n o Es t in a m u s t a s s is t y o u b u t th e n I t h e n e s t a b li s h e d t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e m e e t in g a ft e r I h a d m e t th e m . T h e y w e r e o f t h e t h i n k i n g t h a t w e s h o u l d a s s is t t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u w e r e t o l d b y t h e p e r s o n w h o c a ll e d y o u a n d s a id t h e y w e r e P a r a s p e o p l e w h o n e e d e d w h o w a n t e d t o m e e t y o u d i d y o u n o t a s k w h a t d o t h e y w a n t to d i s c u s s ? M R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir w h a t I w a s t o l d t h a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p le fr o m I n d ia fr o m E s ti n a w h o w o u l d w a n t t o m e e t w i t h y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d i d y o u n o t a s k a b o u t w h a t? W h y m u s t – w h a t is t h e m e e ti n g g o i n g t o b e a b o u t ? MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir i t w a s o b v io u s t o m e t h a t i f a n y b o d y w o u ld w a n t to t a l k t o m e fr o m I n d i a a n d f r o m E s ti n a i t w o u l d b e a b o u t th e project. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 157 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: S o I – i t w o u l d n o t b e s tr a n g e to m e to m e e t s o m e b o d y fr o m E s t in a . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I m e a n t h e p r o j e c t t h e r e a r e s o m a n y th i n g s t h a t c o u l d b e d i s c u s s e d a b o u t t h e p r o j e c t . Yo u d id n o t s a y e x a c t ly w h a t i s i t d o th e y – t h a t t h e y w a n t to d e a l w i t h t o t a l k t o m e a b o u t , a b o u t th e project? MR THABETHE: No, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r o j e c t w a s g o i n g o n , is i t n o t? M R T H A B E T H E: 10 Ye s C h a ir. N o I d id n o t a s k . Maybe I would have b e e n k e e n to m e e t t h e m a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e y w e r e h e r e t o d o a n d s o o n b u t I d i d n o t a s k w h a t w a s i t a l l a b o u t. I o n l y le a r n t it w h e n I w a s in t h e m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r e a li s e d th a t i t is s o m e t h in g th a t c o u ld h a v e been dealt with over the phone? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e m e e t in g d i d s ti ll – s ti ll to o k a b o u t a n h o u r y o u said? M R T H A B E T H E: T h e m e e ti n g to o k – n o w e w e r e c h a tt i n g , t a l k i n g C h a ir r e l a ti n g w h a t I s a w w h e n I w a s i n I n d i a b u t t h e b i g g e r p a r t o f t h e 20 m e e ti n g w h y I h a d to m e e t w a s a b o u t th a t t h e n I h a d e x p la i n e d to t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o t h e r e s t o f t h e t i m e i t w a s ju s t c h a t ti n g . M R T H A B E T H E : W e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t – y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : W e r e a n y o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s o r f a m il y m e m b e r s ’ p a r t o f t h a t m e e t in g ? Page 158 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t is – i t i s a v e r y d i ff ic u l t … CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e a n y o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s f ir s t a n d t h e n w e c a n s e e i f th e r e i s a n o th e r G u p ta p e r s o n b u t w a s t h e r e a n y o f th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s – th r e e G u p t a b r o t h e r s w h o a t t e n d e d th a t m e e ti n g ? M R TH A B E T H E : C h a ir i t is v e r y d i ff ic u l t . I do not want to make a m is t a k e o f – o f – b e c a u s e y o u s e e i f t h e s e p e o p l e w o u l d w a lk i n n o w I w o u ld n o t e v e n a b l e to id e n ti fy w h o is w h o . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w e a r e n o t s a y i n g w h ic h o n e . W e a r e s i m p ly a s k in g w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a n y o n e o f t h e m w h o w a s t h e r e i r r e s p e c t iv e 10 o f w h e t h e r y o u k n o w t h e n a m e o r y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s Mr To n y Gupta or Mr Ajay Gupta or Mr Atol Gupta. We are just asking whether a n y o n e o f th e m a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e ti n g . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir t h a t is w h a t I a m s a y in g i n t h e a ff id a v i t. I a s s u m e t h a t t h a t o n e o f th e s e p e o p l e w a s a G u p t a p e r s o n . O n e o f th e o n e s t h a t in tr o d u c e d m e . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m e a n – y o u m e a n y o u d i d n o t fi n d o u t w h o th e p e o p l e – w h o a ll th e p e o p l e w e r e w h o w e r e a t t h a t m e e ti n g a t t h a t ti m e ? W e r e y o u n o t t o ld t h is is s o a n d s o , t h i s is s o a n d s o , t h i s is s o a n d s o ? MR THABETHE: 20 Ye s C h a ir I w a s to l d b y t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s in tr o d u c i n g t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : H e in tr o d u c e d t h e p e o p l e to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : W e r e fr o m P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 159 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: And then – then we would…. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w – d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e th e r o n e o f t h e p e r s o n s o r o n e o r m o r e o f th e p e r s o n s w h o w e r e i n t h e m e e t in g y o u w e r e t o l d w a s M r Aj a y G u p t a o r Mr A t u l G u p t a o r M r To n y G u p t a a ls o called Rajesh Gupta? MR THABETHE: H e m i g h t h a v e i n tr o d u c e d C h a ir b u t I m a y n o t h a v e t a k e n it in t o m in d t o b e a b l e t o s a y w h o e x a c tl y w a s t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: So – but you would have known or you would r e m e m b e r I w o u ld i m a g i n e d i f i n t h a t m e e t i n g o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s 10 w a s t h e r e . A s y o u s i t th e r e y o u w il l – I w o u l d e x p e c t y o u t o r e m e m b e r that one of them was there. Yo u m i g h t n o t r e m e m b e r w h i c h o n e . I w o u ld e x p e c t y o u t o r e m e m b e r. Am I – am I mistaken I should not e x p e c t y o u to r e m e m b e r ? M R T H A B E T H E : I t is a v e r y d i ff ic u l t o n e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h i s t i m e – t h i s is 2 0 1 3 n e ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e m e e t in g y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u – y o u t h i n k y o u – y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r a n y o n e o f t h e m w a s p r e s e n t? M R T H A B E T H E : L a te r C h a ir I tr ie d to lo o k a t th e fa c e s t h a t w e r e p u t u p . I t w a s v e r y d i ffi c u l t fo r m e t o b e a b l e t o s a y w h ic h o f th o s e w e r e i n t h a t m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. Page 160 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t y o u h a v e – y o u h a v e – w e h a v e e s ta b l is h e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a G u p t a f a m ily m e m b e r. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : A t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y n o w I m u s t u n d e r s t a n d th a t . So that you r e m e m b e r t h a t th e r e w a s … MR THABETHE: There was... CHAIRPERSON: 10 A G u p ta f a m ily m e m b e r. M R T H A B E T H E : O n e o f th e G u p t a . I t a k e i t t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h e p e r s o n w h o c a m e t o i n tr o d u c e m e i n th a t r e a s o n w a s a G u p ta . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t y o u m u s t – y o u m u s t c a r e f u l . It i s o n e t h in g t o s a y y o u ta k e i t to b e t h e c a s e . I t is a n o t h e r t h i n g to s a y i t is s o . S o b e f o r e M s G c a b a s h e a s k e d y o u t h e l a s t q u e s t io n s h e a s k e d y o u I thought you were saying you were not sure – you were not sure that t h e r e w a s a G u p t a f a m il y m e m b e r a t t h e m e e t in g . B u t s h e p u t t o y o u a v e r y c l e a r q u e s ti o n a n d I t h o u g h t y o u r a n s w e r w a s v e r y c le a r t h a t y e s 20 there was. S o t h a t is w h y I t h e n w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I h a d n o t m is u n d e r s t o o d a n y t h i n g . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir I – I – m y r e s p o n s e i s t h a t I to o k i t t h a t i t w a s a G u p ta p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e w h o in tr o d u c e d y o u t o e v e r y b o d y MR THABETHE: T h e o n e w h o i n tr o d u c e d m e . Page 161 of 200 B u t I a m n o t a b le t o 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 c o n fir m t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a i r m a n I h a d s o r t e d th is o u t u n ti l y o u a s k e d th a t q u e s t io n . A n d I w il l t e l l y o u w h y I b e l ie v e I h a d s o r te d i t o u t M r T h a b e th e w i th a ll d u e r e s p e c t to y o u r q u e s t io n . I understand the r e a s o n f o r t h e q u e s ti o n s C h a i r m a n p le a s e – p l e a s e a c c e p t th a t I d o . T h e r e a s o n is th a t y o u r h o s t w o u l d h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t o c o n n e c t w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s e e k in g w o r k p e r m i ts . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 ADV GCABASHE: Th e h o m e y o u a r e i n b e l o n g s t o o n e o f th e G u p t a f a m ily m e m b e r s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E: S o o n e w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t b e c a u s e t h i s w a s s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t m a tt e r g e t t in g w o r k p e r m it s f o r th e s e t e c h n ic a l p e o p le w h o w o u ld b e w o r k i n g o n E s t i n a th a t y o u r h o s t w o u l d b e s o m e b o d y w h o belonged in that home. This is why I – I expected the answer you gave w h e n y o u s a i d o n e o f th e G u p ta ’s y o u d o n o t k n o w w h ic h o n e b e c a u s e i t is d i ffi c u l t to t e ll t h e m a p a r t b u t o n e o f t h e G u p t a ’s w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r e . B u t I s e e y o u a r e n o w r e t r a c t i n g t h a t. 20 M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir I a m n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t r e tr a c t in g ? M R T H A B E T H E : I a m n o t r e t r a c t i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Ms G c a b a s h e y o u h a v e g o t y o u r a n s w e r. A D V G C A B A S H E : M a y b e I s h o u l d j u s t r o u n d t h i s o ff w i th t h e f o l lo w i n g q u e s t io n . Yo u s e e w h e n I l o o k e d a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 5 1 i n y o u r 2 0 1 9 Page 162 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a ffi d a v i t , th e o n e to t h e c o m m i s s i o n y o u s t a te t h e f o l lo w in g : “ U p u n t il t h e t i m e o f m y a r r e s t o n 1 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 I w a s n o t a w a r e o f a n y in v o lv e m e n t o f t h e G u p t a f a m ily i n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . A s s t a t e d a b o v e I o n ly m e t M r Va r u n G u p t a d u r i n g th e t i m e o f m y a r r e s t o n 1 4 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . P r i o r t o my a r r e s t I h a v e n e v e r m e t a n y p e r s o n w it h t h e s u r n a m e o f G u p ta a t a n y o c c a s i o n n o r d id I d is c u s s a n y a s p e c ts r e g a r d in g t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d e x e c u ti o n o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y 10 P r o je c t w i th a n y p e r s o n w i t h t h e s u r n a m e o f G u p ta . ” M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: N o w t h is m e e ti n g y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t o f 2 0 1 3 is a m e e ti n g th a t is d i s c u s s i n g t e c h n i c a l a s s is t a n c e t o E s t in a . Yo u r h o s t i s a G u p ta . Th a t m e a n s w h a t y o u w r o t e in p a r a g r a p h 5 1 y o u o u g h t to h a v e c o r r e c t e d a s w e l l i n y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h is is w h a t I a m c o r r e c t in g i n m y s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t . ADV GCABASHE: No. I n t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v it y o u a r e – y o u a r e a d m i tt i n g t o a m e e ti n g a t th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e b u t y o u a r e n o t 20 a d m i t t in g to a n y c o n n e c t io n b e t w e e n th e G u p t a fa m i ly a n d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t. O t h e r w is e c o r r e c t m e p l e a s e . Yo u h a v e g o t th e a ff id a v i t in fr o n t o f m e – o f y o u r a t h e r. S h o w m e w h e r e y o u a r e s a y i n g a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s I a m d e a li n g w i th in t h i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y. MR THABETHE: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : J u s t t a k e m e to t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? Page 163 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is c o r r e c t. I a m a d m i t t in g m e e ti n g t h e m b u t I a m n o t a d m i t t in g d i s c u s s i n g t h e a s p e c t s o f th e p r o j e c ts . A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t t a lk i n g a b o u t E s t i n a t e c h n ic a l is s u e s m e a n s y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e p r o j e c t . Yo u r h o s t is G u p t a – m e m b e r o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly. Yo u a r e d i s c u s s i n g t h e p r o j e c t . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I a m d i s c u s s in g w it h th e d e l e g a t i o n fr o m In d ia . T h a t w a s t h e i n t e n ti o n . T h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e m e e t in g C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e i n tr o d u c e d to t h e s e p e o p le b y y o u r h o s t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Yo u r h o s t k n o w s t h a t t h e y a r e i n E s ti n a te c h n o c r a ts . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: P e o p l e w h o h a v e g o t t e c h n ic a l s k il ls a c c o r d i n g to y o u w h o a r e c o m i n g t o Es t in a a n d to Vr e d e . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: To w o r k o n t h e p r o j e c t . S o y o u r p a r a g r a p h 5 1 is in c o r r e c t . 20 M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a i r I d o n o t s e e a n y – a n y th i n g w r o n g w i t h th e paragraph. A D V G C A B A S H E : In a n y e v e n t a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u s a y y o u w e r e in tr o d u c e d t o p e r s o n s w h o f r o m P a r a s a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n s w e r e m a i n ly a b o u t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 164 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 A D V G C A B A S H E: S o y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t . Mr Thabethe. MR THABETHE: C h a ir y e s b e c a u s e th a t is w h a t m y s t a te m e n t is s a y in g . I a m s a y i n g I h a d – I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o t h e s e p e o p l e w h e r e I h a d c o m e t o d i s c u s s w i t h t h e m a b o u t t h e i s s u e o f Vr e d e D a ir y. Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: M r T h a b e t h e t h e S u n C i ty w e d d i n g , th e G u p ta w e d d i n g a t S u n C i ty d i d y o u a tt e n d t h a t w e d d i n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : W e r e y o u i n v i te d to t h a t w e d d i n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o I w a s n o t i n v it e d C h a i r. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u d id n o t r e c e iv e a n i n v i t a ti o n ? MR THABETHE: No. ADV GCABASHE: T h e y h a v e h a d a f e w D i w a li c e le b r a ti o n s a t t h e G u p t a h o m e . W e r e y o u i n v i t e d t o a n y o f th o s e D i w a li c e l e b r a ti o n s ? MR THABETHE: No I was not. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a v e n o t a t t e n d e d a s i n g l e o n e o f t h e m ? M R T H A B E T H E : I h a v e n o t a t t e n d e d C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : S o t h e e x t e n t o f y o u r i n te r a c t io n w it h t h e G u p t a ’s is 20 t h is m e e ti n g y o u h a v e j u s t t o ld u s a b o u t? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: A n d t h e b r e a k fa s t m e e ti n g s w h e r e y o u w o u ld h a v e m e t th e m . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: A n d t h e n ju s t t e l e p h o n e c a ll s b u t y o u a r e n o t s a y in g Page 165 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w i t h t h e G u p ta ’s i n p a r t ic u l a r b u t w it h p e o p l e fr o m S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s t o a r r a n g e c e r ta i n m e e t in g s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: B u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h o fr o m S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s w a s p h o n i n g y o u to a r r a n g e th e m e e ti n g s t h a t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d to ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n Mr To n y G u p t a y o u h a v e n o c l u e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n I b e l ie v e t h a t i s – th o s e a r e t h e q u e s t i o n s 10 w e h a v e f r o m – f o r Mr T h a b e t h e . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u . D i d w e – d i d y o u f in is h q u e s t io n s o n – o n – d id y o u e x h a u s t y o u r q u e s ti o n s o n t h e d e v ia t io n ? A D V G C A B A S H E : I b e li e v e I h a v e C h a ir m a n . M R T H A B E T H E : Yo u h a v e o k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I w i ll – I w i ll – Mr T h a b e th e l e t u s j u s t g o b a c k . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o r r y I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir m a n . I f y o u r e c a l l it is t h e d ir e c t q u e s t i o n s a n d t h e n t h e o n e s r e la ti n g t o th e A G q u e s t i o n in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 ADV GCABASHE: T h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e y h a d a p p r o a c h e d t h e d e v i a ti o n . S o a l l o f th a t i s o n e c o m p o s i t e p i e c e o f e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : M u c h a s t h e q u e s ti o n s w e r e a s k e d a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s . CHAIRPERSON: J a it m u s t b e b e c a u s e I – I w a n te d t o a s k s o m e q u e s t io n s t h a t m u s t h a v e b e e n t h a t I t h o u g h t y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e . M r – Page 166 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 Mr Thabethe let us just go back. A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir m a n . May I sit down? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M r T h a b e th e l e t u s g o b a c k t o s o m e th in g t h a t w e d e a l t w i th m u c h e a r l i e r b e c a u s e I d o n o t t h i n k I w a s s a tis f ie d t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d e v e r y t h i n g a b o u t i t a n d i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I s h o u l d u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e a s w e ll . In r e g a r d to t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Fa r m 10 P r o je c t t h e r e w a s n o c o m p l ia n c e w i t h a n y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . M a y b e p u t ti n g i t t h a t w a y m i g h t n o t b e c o m p le t e l y a c c u r a t e b u t y o u s o u g h t to d e v i a t e fr o m i t . Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s ? MR THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. D e v ia t io n i s a c o m p l ia n c e p r o c e d u r e . CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g m a y b e i t m ig h t n o t b e p u t t in g a c c u r a te ly t o s a y t h e r e w a s n o c o m p li a n c e b e c a u s e d e v i a t i o n is p r o v i d e d f o r i n th e l e g i s l a ti o n . MR THABETHE: 20 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w a s I r e c a l l d e v ia t io n is p r o v i d e d f o r i n th e le g i s l a ti o n a n d t h e p o l ic i e s u n d e r v e r y li m i t e d c i r c u ms t a n c e s , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k o n e s u c h s i t u a ti o n i s e i th e r e m e r g e n c y o r u r g e n c y I j u s t c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w w h e t h e r it i s p u t a s e m e r g e n c y o r Page 167 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a s u r g e n c y, is th a t r i g h t? Is i t e m e r g e n c y o r u r g e n c y ? M R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O b v i o u s ly urgency is part of emergency but e m e r g e n c y is n o t n e c e s s a r ily t h e s a m e a s u r g e n c y. M R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r I m u s t ju s t h a s t e t o c o m e i n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e d e v i a t i o n t h a t y o u a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : I t i s f o r m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n a ll o c a te d fo r g o o d s a n d 10 s e r v ic e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: I t is v e r y c le a r t h a t w h e n t h e – w h e n y o u b u d g e t o f g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s y o u w is h t o d e v ia t e a n d th is is th e p r o c e s s t o f o ll o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y m a y b e I s h o u l d h a v e p u t m y q u e s t io n t h is w a y. W h a t w a s t h e j u s ti f ic a t i o n y o u g a v e f o r s a y i n g t h a t d e v i a ti o n w a s ju s t i fi e d i n t h i s c a s e ? MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir th e – I t h i n k t h e n u m b e r o f w i t n e s s e s h a s a ls o e x p l a i n e d i t t h a t t h i s b u d g e t w a s g a z e t te d u n d e r tr a n s f e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR THABETHE: A n d o n c e th e b u d g e t i s g a z e t t e d u n d e r tr a n s f e r i t becomes un-equated funds. C H A I R P E R S O N : It b e c o m e s ? MR THABETHE: Un-equated funds. CHAIRPERSON: Un? Page 168 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Equated. CHAIRPERSON: Equated. M R T H A B E T H E : I t m e a n s i t i s f u n d s t h a t y o u m u s t – y o u m u s t tr a n s f e r. I t i s n o t f u n d s th a t a r e m e a n t f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t . I t m e a n s t h is m o n e y h a s b e e n p u t a s id e f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f s o m e b o d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e o n e e ls e y e s . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s th e n y o u tr a n s fe r t h a t m o n e y f o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: But what we then did as a Department over and above 10 t h a t w e t h e n s a id w e a r e a c t u a ll y s a y in g w e a r e d e v ia t in g fr o m o u r n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s b e c a u s e o f t h a t p a r tic u la r r e a s o n . H e n c e t h is m o n e y b e c o m e s a tr a n s f e r. S o th o s e – t h o s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e t h e d e v i a ti o n s t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t it i s a d e v i a ti o n t h a t r e f e r s t o m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n a ll o c a te d a n d g a z e t t e d f o r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s w h ic h i n th is i n s t a n c e i t d o e s n o t a p p ly. CHAIRPERSON: S o m o n e y g e ts g iv e n t o y o u r d e p a r t m e n t f o r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I f i t is f o r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s y o u m u s t f o l l o w 20 … MR THABETHE: The - the … C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And those procurem ent a p p r o p r i a t e c a s e s d e v ia t io n ? Page 169 of 200 procedures i n c lu d e in 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. N o w - b u t y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e is m o n e y t h a t w o u ld g e t a l l o c a t e d t o y o u r d e p a r t m e n t n o t fo r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m o n e y t h a t g e ts a l l o c a t e d t o y o u r d e p a r t m e n t n o t u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s w o u l d b e a l lo c a te d to y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a s as what or … M R T H A B E T H E : As - a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t c a te g o r y d o e s i t f a l l … ? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : As tr a n s fe r s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s tr a n s fe r s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h is c o n c e p t o f tr a n s f e r s is t h a t i n s o m e le g i s l a ti o n ? I n s o m e p o l ic i e s , i n s o m e o ffi c ia l d o c u m e n t w h e r e - w h e r e t h e r e i s p r o v is io n t o s a y w e ll i f it is tr a n s fe r s i t d o e s n o t g o t o p r o c u r e m e n t . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W h a t is t h a t - w h a t - w h a t a r e t h o s e in s t r u m e n ts ? W h a t i s t h a t i n s tr u m e n t t h a t s a y s t h a t? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e - t h e v e r y s a m e A c t s ti p u l a t e s t h e r e - t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t c a ll e d - i n G o v e r n m e n t c a ll e d S C O A . I a m n o t a b le t o t o p u t i t i n f u ll … C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e m e m b e r t h e f u l l n a m e ? M R T H A B E T H E : In f u l l d e t a il s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . Page 170 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: B u t t h a t d o c u m e n t t h e n e x p l a i n s - n o w th a t - t h a t is t h e p r o b l e m C h a ir. T h a t t o o k t w o y e a r s f o r N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y to b e a b l e t o c l a r i fy b e c a u s e i t h a s b e e n i n e x is t e n c e a n d - a n d t h e a p p lic a ti o n h a s b e e n v a r y in g fr o m p r o v i n c e to p r o v in c e . H e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a p p li c a t io n o f t h a t … MR THABETHE: That … C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h a t d o c u m e n t? M R T H A B E T H E : O f th a t d o c u m e n t C h a ir, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y S C O A ? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : I t is c a ll e d S C O A C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d o y o u s p e ll t h e a c r o n y m ? MR THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : S- C - O - A ? M R T H A B E T H E : S- C - O - A C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. MR THABETHE: I f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . I t h i n k t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r might have seen the document. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. MR THABETHE: I am referring to. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . MR THABETHE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: S o th e r e a r e th is d o c u m e n t S C O A . J u s t te ll m e t h e g is t w h a t d o e s i t d e a l w i t h ? D o e s i t d e a l w it h tr a n s f e r s o r … ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t - i t d e a l s w i th a n u m b e r o f - o f p r o c e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I n c lu d i n g t r a n s f e r s ? Page 171 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: Ja. I do not want to go there because I am not an e x p e r t o f i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But your understanding … M R T H A B E T H E : O t h e r w is e I a m c o n f u s e t h e w h o l e d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . A t l e a s t t e l l - te l l m e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g . M R T H A B E T H E : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f - o f t h e d o c u m e n t i t - i t c la s s i f ie s h o w y o u d e a l w i t h a b o u t th e tr a n s f e r. 10 It - it even presents it to you s c h e m a t ic a ll y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : H o w y o u d e a l w i t h t h e t r a n s fe r. S o t h a t y o u a r e a b le t o f o l l o w it . CHAIRPERSON: A n d - a n d b a s i c a ll y w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t tr a n s f e r i n t h is c o n te x t. I t is tr a n s fe r o f m o n e y t h a t is … M R T H A B E T H E : Fr o m - fr o m G o v e r n m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m G o v e r n m e n t . M R T H A B E T H E : To a n o t h e r e n ti ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o 20 M R T H A B E T H E : I t c o u ld b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n i n d iv i d u a l o r a n e n t it y … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s r e c o g n i s e d u n d e r S C O A … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: As being not for goods and services? Page 172 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is - is t h a t o n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g d o e s S C O A s a y m o n i e s t h a t a r e c l a s s i fi e d o r e n te r e d u n d e r a s tr a n s f e r s d o n o t n e e d t o b e s u b je c t e d to o r t h e r e is n o n e e d t o g o th r o u g h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s f o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o d is p e n s e th e m . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t i t s a y s ? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: The document. N o w I w o u ld li k e t o s e e t h a t d o c u m e n t . S o - s o I t h i n k I w o u l d l ik e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o b e m a d e f o r m e t o s e e i t a n d m a y b e i f it i s p o s s i b le i t w o u l d b e g o o d i f w h e n I s e e i t I w o u ld k n o w w h a t p r o v is i o n s i n f o r m y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f a r r a n g e m e n ts c o u ld b e m a d e to m a k e s u r e t h e s e a r e th e p r o v is i o n s t h a t i n fo r m y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h i c h y o u t o ld m e a b o u t t o d a y. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: That - that document … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : As w e s p e a k t o d a y h a s a n e w p o s i ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e i t c r e a t e d a lo t o f i n s ta b il it y … Page 173 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a l le n g e s , y e s . MR THABETHE: Throughout, because … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: When the … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f th e tw o y e a r p e r i o d y o u … M R T H A B E T H E : T h e t w o p e r io d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T H A B E T H E : W h e n I w a s t h e r e I h a d p e r s o n a l ly w r i t te n t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : R e q u e s ti n g t h e m a c l a r if i c a ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : W h i c h - w h i c h d i d n o t c o m e f o r t h a n d th e e x p la n a t i o n w a s t h a t i f - i f w e g i v e y o u a n a n s w e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: It means that becomes a rule. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : A n d w e n e e d t o d o p r o p e r c o n s u l t a ti o n t h r o u g h o u t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h e c o u n tr y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : B e f o r e w e f i n a li s e t h a t d e c i s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. M R T H A B E T H E : S o i t w a s v e r y d i ff ic u l t e v e n f o r N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t o s a y y e s D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e F r e e S t a te y o u a r e w r o n g … Page 174 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : O r y o u a r e r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: I t - i t - th a t - t h a t w a s t h e d i ff ic u l ty fo r t h e m t o - t o c o m e t o u s t o s a y i n o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g - b e c a u s e th a t is w h a t w e w a n t e d t h e m t o t e l l u s - t o s a y y o u a r e r ig h t o r y o u a r e w r o n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w th e - t h e d o c u m e n t a s i t r e a d b e f o r e t h e a m e n d m e n ts t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d . M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w o u ld l ik e t o s e e t h e o n e t h a t w a s i n e x is t e n c e a t t h e t i m e b e c a u s e th a t is t h e o n e … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b a s is o f w h ic h y o u a c t e d . MR THABETHE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I - I a m s u r e C h a ir Tr e a s u r y c o u l d a s s is t y o u w i t h t h a t d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m s u r e th e y - th e y s h o u l d b e a b le to . N o w b u t - b u t w h y w o u l d i t b e c o m e n e c e s s a r y t o ta lk a b o u t d e v i a ti o n t h e n i f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a r e n o t a p p li c a b l e b e c a u s e i t is n o t g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s w h e n y o u w a n t t o d is p e n s e m o n e y ? T h a t fi le fa ll s u n d e r 20 tr a n s fe r s . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir, w e - w e h a d a g r e e d in t h e p r o v i n c e th a t f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o a s s is t t h e fa r m e r s w i th t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s a ll o c a t e d u n d e r t r a n s f e r w e w i ll th e n t o g e t h e r w it h t h e f a r m e r ’s s o u r c e a n i m p l e m e n t a g e n t . I t m e a n s t h e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i ll g o a n d a d v e r ti s e a t e n d e r fo r u s to b e a b l e to g e t i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n ts in o r d e r fo r u s to Page 175 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 b e a b l e t o a s s is t th e fa r m e r ’s t o i m p l e m e n t th e p r o j e c t . N o w th is d e v i a ti o n w a s th e n d e v ia t in g fr o m w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d o n a s a d e p a r t m e n t to s a y i n th is p a r ti c u la r in s ta n c e w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o f o ll o w w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d i n te r ms o f a s s is t in g th e f a r m e r s b e c a u s e w e h a v e a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t t h a t is a p a r tn e r i n t h e p r o j e c t t h a t w il l i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t fo r u s . T h a t - t h a t w a s t h e d i ff e r e n c e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A r e y o u - a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t t h e p r e s e n c e o f a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t m e a n t t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s h a d t o b e 10 c o m p li e d with in c i r c u ms t a n c e s where o t h e r w is e th e y were not s u p p o s e d to b e - t h e y w e r e n o t a p p lic a b l e ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is th a t ? W h y d i d i t - d i d - w h y d i d i t m a k e t h a t d i ff e r e n c e ? MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir, w e - w e h a d - w e h a d e n g a g e d t h a t p r o c e s s o v e r a v e r y l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e . I - I t o o k a v e r y le n g t h y p e r i o d tr y i n g t o e x p la in la s t t i m e w h y - h o w w e e n d e d th e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I d o n o t - I d o n o t w a n t a - a l o n g th i n g . Yo u h a v e t o l d m e i f m o n e y fa ll s u n d e r tr a n s fe r s … 20 M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s d o n o t a p p ly. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t S C O A m e a n - s a y s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Now as I understand it now you want to Page 176 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 d is p e n s e m o n e y t h a t f a l ls u n d e r t r a n s f e r s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But suddenly you say procurement procedures now a p p ly b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b r o u g h t i n a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So where - where - what was the basis for saying d is p e n s i n g m o n e y t h a t f a l ls u n d e r tr a n s f e r s i s g o v e r n e d b y p r o c u r e m e n t procedures? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I f y o u b r in g i n a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t , b u t i f y o u d o n o t b r i n g i n a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t th o s e p r o c e d u r e s d o n o t a p p l y. T h a t is w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir w e h a d l e a r n t fr o m e x p e r ie n c e o f th e p a s t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: T h a t m o n e y w e r e - w h ic h w e r e - w e r e m e a n t f o r f a r m e r s w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e f a r m e r s t o i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t a n d w e h a d p ic k e d p r o b l e ms . O n c e t h e m o n e y l a n d i n - i n to th e f a r m e r s a c c o u n t t h e f a r m e r s m a y d e c id e n o t to i m p l e m e n t th e p r o j e c t b u t t o d o 20 s o m e t h i n g e ls e . S o w e h a d b e e n t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR THABETHE: A n d w e h a d e n g a g e d w it h b o t h P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l i n th a t r e g a r d b e c a u s e t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l w il l s a y s o m u c h m o n e y w a s g i v e n t o t h is f a r m e r t o d o o n e , t w o , th r e e , f o u r. C a n y o u g o a n d s e e w h a t if … ? Page 177 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 CHAIRPERSON: What he did with it? M R T H A B E T H E : W h a t h e d id w i t h th e m o n e y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: A n d w h e n w e g e t t h e r e w e a r e n o t a b le t o s e e b e c a u s e w e h a v e g iv e n th e m o n e y d ir e c t ly. Hence we had to come b a c k t o a d r a w i n g b o a r d a n d s a y b u t th is - t h i s s y s t e m is n o t a s s is ti n g us. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T H A B E T H E : L e t u s i m p o s e a n a d d i ti o n a l r e s tr i c ti o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: S o w h a t w e th e n d i d w a s a n a d d i ti o n a l r e s t r ic t io n t o p u t it u n d e r c o n tr o l … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R T H A B E T H E : To i m p r o v e t h e q u a li ty o f t h e w o r k d o n e a n d fo r u s to b e a b l e t o m o n i t o r p r o p e r ly. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR THABETHE: H e n c e t h e n in a n a r e a w h e r e w e d i d n o t n e e d a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w e t h e n in tr o d u c e d a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : R i g h t , b u t o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o n c e y o u w e r e g o in g 20 t o g iv e t h e m o n e y t o Es t in a a n d n o t to t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s t h e m s e l v e s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Was c o m p l ia n c e with procurement procedures c o m p u l s o r y o r n o t a n d w h e n I s a y p r o c e d u r e s I in c l u d e d e v i a t i o n ? In o th e r w o r d s w e r e y o u ju s t d e c i d i n g b y y o u r s e lv e s f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s b e c a u s e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t o b r i n g i n - to i n v o k e a Page 178 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 p r o c e d u r e th a t o t h e r w is e d i d n o t a p p ly o r w a s t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e o b li g e d b y l a w ? N o w t h a t th e m o n e y w a s n o t g o in g t o b e s e n t d ir e c t ly to t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s b u t w a s g o i n g t o b e s e n t t o s o m e b o d y e ls e . Yo u w e r e o b l ig e d b y l a w t o t h e n a p p ly o r c o m p ly w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t procedures. MR THABETHE: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: What was your understanding? M R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir, w e - w e w e r e n o t c o m p e ll e d b y la w. W e w e w e r e j u s t p u t ti n g a m e r g e r … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR THABETHE: To a s s i s t u s t o b e a b le to i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t p r o p e r ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t h o w w a s d e v i a ti o n g o in g t o a s s is t y o u i f y o u d i d n o t - I m e a n t h e - th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a s f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d w e r e n o t a p p lic a b l e … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h i s w a s m o n e y t h a t fe ll u n d e r tr a n s fe r s ? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So deviation means do not follow procedures? 20 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w w a s i t g o i n g t o a s s is t y o u d o i n g a d e v i a ti o n ? MR THABETHE: because in the C h a ir e x a c t ly t h a t is w h a t - w h a t w a s - I w a s s a y i n g department we had make - made an internal a r r a n g e m e n t th a t t h is is h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o d o i t. W h e t h e r th e l a w d id n o t r e q u ir e i t . W e a r e g o i n g t o d o i t . H e n c e in t h i s p a r t ic u l a r in s t a n c e Page 179 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w e w e r e t h e n s a y in g w e a r e d e v ia t in g f r o m o u r o w n a g r e e m e n t a l s o . E v e n t h o u g h t h e la w d i d n o t r e q u ir e i t t o b e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e n y o u a r e c o n f u s e m e m o r e n o w. I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t a l l a lo n g w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t d e v ia t io n … M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e m e a n d e v i a ti o n a s p r o v i d e d f o r i n t h e P F M A … M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : P o l ic i e s . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: But now you seem to be saying no, no, no. T h is d e v i a ti o n w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w e a r e d e v i a t i n g fr o m o u r o w n o b li g a ti o n s t h a t w e h a d p l a c e d o u r s e lv e s b y w a y o f a n a g r e e m e n t in t e r n a ll y. N o t fr o m t h e P F M A . M R T H A B E T H E : Yo u - y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t . S o t h e d e v i a ti o n t h a t y o u - y o u s o u g h t w a s a d e v i a ti o n f r o m y o u r o w n i n t e r n a l a r r a n g e m e n t? M R T H A B E T H E : Ar r a n g e m e n t b e c a u s e t h i s d e v i a ti o n d i d n o t q u a l if y i n 20 t e r m s o f th e P F M A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - b u t th is i n te r n a l a r r a n g e m e n t d i d n o t r e a ll y p u t a n y o b li g a t i o n - l e g a l o b l ig a ti o n u p o n y o u . a r r a n g e m e n t is it n o t ? M R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t is a n ic e th in g t o d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 180 of 200 It was just an 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: (Intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h y I s a y it is n o t a n o b li g a ti o n . M R T H A B E T H E : N o . I t is n o t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u s o u g h t a n - a d e v i a ti o n fr o m a n ic e t h i n g t o do? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A lr i g h t . O k a y. Th a n k y o u . Ms Gcabashe a n y th in g a r i s i n g ? A D V G C A B A S H E : N o C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: No Chairman. Other than that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV GCABASHE: W e h a v e a c o p y o f th e a c c o u n t in g m a n u a l f o r d e p a r t m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e s t a n d a r d c h a r t o f a c c o u n ts a n d s y s t e m s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: I t m i g h t b e u s e f u l fo r M r Th a b e t h e t o i n d i c a t e o n your document … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h ic h I w a s a b o u t - I w a s j u s t l o o k i n g fo r a c l i p i n my (intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV GCABASHE: Which p r o v is i o n s he understand Page 181 of 200 r e l ie d on so that you 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t … A D V G C A B A S H E : Ve r y c l e a r l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e h e l p f u l . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t i t i s t h a t h e - h e h a s r e l ie d o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e le t u s d o t h a t if - i f y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o M r T h a b e t h e . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u m i g h t n e e d m o r e ti m e t h e n … MR THABETHE: P l e a s e - p l e a s e C h a ir i f I c o u l d b e a ll o w e d . Then I w i ll … CHAIRPERSON: Have - to have more time? 10 MR THABETHE: Ye s . S o t h a t I g e t t h e r ig h t p e o p l e to h e l p m e t o id e n t i fy i t a n d th e n I ( c l e a r i n g o f t h r o a t) i t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. T h e n w h a t w e c a n d o is t h a t m a y b e y o u c a n fi le a - ju s t a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d a t ta c h t h e d o c u m e n t o r t h e r e l e v a n t p a r ts o f t h e d o c u m e n t a n d s a y th e s e a r e t h e p r o v is io n s in SCOA that guided my understanding. M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Is t h a t fi n e w i th y o u ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s f in e w i t h u s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : I - in t h a t e v e n t I p r e s u m e t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : M r T h a b e t h e w i ll a t ta c h a c o p y o f t h a t d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to m a r k w h a t w e h a v e j u s t h a n d e d u p o r i f y o u w ill s i m p ly w a i t f o r M r T h a b e t h e t o fi le - p r o p e r ly Page 182 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 fi le h i s c o p y. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t u s m a r k t h is a n d … A D V G C A B A S H E : S h a ll w e p u t i t i n t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e C h a i r m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s d o t h a t . M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h - w h ic h r e f e r e n c e ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , I a m s o r r y. M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r T h a b e th e . M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t is - i t is m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T H A B E T H E : C a n I r e q u e s t t h a t w e - w e d o n o t d o i t n o w ? In c a s e I m ig h t h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a w r o n g d o c u m e n t. S o t h a t I - I a t ta c h t h e c o r r e c t d o c u m e n t . I - I t o o k i t t h a t t h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR THABETHE: But … CHAIRPERSON: But … MR THABETHE: 20 M a y b e w h e n r e a d i n g it I m a y r e a lis e n o I h a v e a tt a c h e d t h e w r o n g d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m i g h t - y e s . M R T H A B E T H E : S o th a t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M a y b e l e t u s - l e t u s le a v e i t o n t h e b a s i s t h a t w h e n y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t c o m e s i t w il l c o m e w i th th e r i g h t d o c u m e n t w h ic h m a y b e t h is o n e o r m a y b e a n o t h e r o n e . Page 183 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i n f o r m e d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o m a y b e l e t u s n o t … ADV GCABASHE: Hand that up? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H a n d it u p a t t h is s t a g e . O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr T h a b e t h e . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u r c o u n s e l h a s s o m e - s o m e t h i n g . O h . H e w a n ts to - t o ta lk to y o u . A D V G C A B A S H E : I - I th i n k s o C h a ir … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k ju s t … A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t is f in e , j a . A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n , tw o i s s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h m . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e fi r s t M r B u th e le z i w a s ju s t c h e c k i n g o n w h e th e r t h is is t h e e n d o f th e h e a r i n g o f M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y o r d o e s h e h a v e t o c o m e a n d s p e a k t o t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y w h e n h e c o m e s b a c k . T h a t i s t h e f ir s t q u e s t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 ADV GCABASHE: T h e s e c o n d q u e s ti o n is - r e l a t e s t o a r i g h t t o r e - e x a m in e . T h e r e a r e a f e w t h i n g s th a t h e w o u l d l ik e - Mr B u t h e l e z i … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : W o u ld li k e t o c l e a r u p … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t h e t h i n k s t h a t h i s c li e n t … Page 184 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: Glossed over … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d th e y a r e i m p o r t a n t ( in d is ti n c t) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. F ir s t o n e , I t h i n k fr o m y o u r s i d e y o u in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u h a d n o f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s fo r h i m … A D V G C A B A S H E : W e h a v e n o fu r th e r q u e s t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d I d o n o t th i n k I h a v e a n y f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s f o r h i m . S o s u b je c t t o w h a t m i g h t c o m e u p o u t o f t h e r e - e x a m i n a t io n t h i s 10 w o u ld b e t h e e n d o f h is e v id e n c e . I f a n y t h i n g c r o p s u p la t e r t h e n o t h e r - o th e r a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e m a d e , b u t fo r a ll i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s th is should be it. To t h e e x te n t t h a t M r T h a b e th e ’s c o u n s e l w o u l d lik e t o r e - e x a m in e w e c a n a l lo w t h a t n o w o r i f t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m l o o k a t o t h e r a r r a n g e m e n ts b u t o t h e r w is e w e c a n a l lo w i t n o w. I c a n a ll o w i t. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n . G o o d a f te r n o o n . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . I t is n o t m y i n t e n t io n to b e l o n g C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV BUTHELEZI: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t w a n t to c l e a r u p ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? ADV BUTHELEZI: G i v e n t h a t M r Th a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e h a s s p a n n e d q u i te a l o n g p e r i o d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 185 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 ADV BUTHELEZI: A n d g i v e n h o w l o n g it h a s t a k e n to g o th r o u g h M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV BUTHELEZI: I t h i n k s o m e o f t h e th in g s n e e d t o c o m e fr o m h i m o n e m o r e ti m e t o e i th e r b e r e a ffir m e d o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : C l a r i f ie d o n e l a s t ti m e . M r Th a b e t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : I f - i f y o u g o t h r o u g h a c o u p le o f q u e s t i o n s w i t h m e 10 please. F ir s t ly in y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s t h e f o r m e r D G o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e F r e e S ta t e t h e E s ti n a D a ir y P r o je c t a s i t is k n o w n v e r y s h o r t ly w h y d i d t h is p r o j e c t fa il - i n y o u r v i e w ? MR THABETHE: Ja. h a p p e n e d C h a ir. w h ic h was an T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. Tw o t h in g s h a s T h e w i t h d r a w a l o f th e fu n d i n g t o th e p r o j e c t b y i n s tr u c ti o n by N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y to th e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e . S e c o n d ly, a f t e r - I th i n k w e h a d s p o k e n t o t h is - a f t e r a l e n g t h y m e d ia a c t - i n t e r a c ti o n w i th E s ti n a t h e y a ls o - n o m y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir - t o P a r a s . T h e y f e l t i t v e r y d i ffic u lt fo r t h e m t o b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d w i t h 20 t h e p r o j e c t u n t il t o t h e t i m e w h e r e w e d e c i d e d w e a r e th e n g o in g t o t e r m in a t e t h e a g r e e m e n t . S o th o s e - t h o s e a r e t h e t h i n g s C h a ir t h a t r e s u l t e d t o th e p r o j e c t f a il in g . ADV BUTHELEZI: Right. Thank you. The next question becomes a b o u t m o n i e s th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e Fr e e S t a t e e i th e r p a i d t o w a r d s th e p r o j e c t o r p a i d t o w a r d s P a r a s . Page 186 of 200 W h y w e r e th o s e m o n i e s 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 p a i d i f t h e p r o je c t i n e s s e n c e n e v e r h a p p e n e d ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h o s e m o n i e s w e r e p a i d o n t h e w o r k d o n e . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : P le a s e s p e c i f y t h e w o r k d o n e . MR THABETHE: W h i c h - w h i c h C h a ir w a s w h a t w a s d o n e o n t h e g r o u n d i n t e r m s o f i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e p r o je c t . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : Ex a m p l e . MR THABETHE: Th e - C h a ir t h e d e t a i ls w o u ld b e t h a t t h e - th e d a ir y p l a n t w a s p u t in p l a c e , a n i m a ls w e r e p r o c u r e d , fi e l d s w e r e p l a n t e d , e q u ip m e n t w a s b o u g h t a n d - a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s w e r e - w e w e r e a b l e to 10 v e r i fy o n th e g r o u n d t o s a y t h is is w h a t w e h a d p a i d f o r. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . N o w h o w d o y o u r e c o n c i l e th a t a n s w e r w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e f a r m e r s o f Vr e d e w h o h a v e c o m e a n d t e s ti f ie d h e r e t h a t t h e y n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y c a t tl e o r a n y t h in g to t h a t e ffe c t? M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e y h a d n o t r e c e i v e d b e c a u s e w e h a d - b y th e t i m e w e p u t t h e p r o je c t o n h o l d w e h a d n o t c o m e t o t h a t p h a s e w h e r e w e w o u l d th e n g iv e th e f a r m e r s t h e c a t t le . W e w o u ld t h e n tr a n s fe r t h e p r o je c ts to t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s . S o w e h a d n o t c o m e t o t h a t s t a g e . S o t h e ir t e s ti m o n y w a s c o r r e c t. T h e y h a d n o t y e t received. 20 ADV BUTHELEZI: S o - b u t c o m e b a c k w it h m e to t h e p r e v i o u s p o in t . Yo u s a id t h e m o n e y f o r a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s p a id f o r c a t t le . W a s t h a t not what you just said? M R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir t h e m o n e y th a t w a s p a id fo r t h e c a tt l e w a s p a i d f o r t h e c a t t le o n t h e p r o je c t. R e m e m b e r t h e r e w e r e - t h e r e w a s a p h a s e w h e r e a n i m a l s w o u ld a ls o b e d o n a t e d t o f a r m e r s f o r t h e m t o b e Page 187 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 a b l e t o d o t h e p r o j e c t a n d t h e n m il k b e c o l le c t e d a n d b e p u t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h a t o f th e p r o j e c t . T h e o n e i n t h e p r o j e c t w a s t h e p r o je c t o f t h e f a r m e r s w h o w ill jo in t ly o w n b u t t h e y w il l h a v e t h e ir o w n c a t tl e o n t h e ir f a r m s w h e r e t h e y w i ll a ls o - t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i ll t h e n p r o v i d e t h e m w i t h t h o s e c a tt l e . S o b o t h th e s e s t a g e s h a v e n o t b e e n r e f e r r e d t o t h e m y e t . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : S o c la r i fy f o r m e t h is p o i n t . W e r e c a t tl e p u r c h a s e d or not purchased? M R T H A B E T H E : C a t t le w e r e p u r c h a s e d C h a ir fo r - f o r t h e p r o j e c t s it e . 10 A D V B U T H E L E Z I : W h e r e a r e t h o s e c a t t le t o d a y ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir b y - b y th e t i m e I le f t t h e p r o v in c e th e c a t t le w e r e o n t h e p r o je c t s i t e . ADV BUTHELEZI: O k a y. N o w b a s e d o n t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u a r e t a k e n t h r o u g h t o d a y c a n y o u p r o v i d e o n e a s p e c t o f c l a r i ty i n te r m s o f w h o t h e r o l e p l a y e r s w e r e m o r e s p e c i fi c a ll y t h e r o le o f m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p t a fa m i ly ? W h a t w a s t h e ir r o le in t h e e n tir e s c h e m e ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir, t h e y - a c c o r d in g t o my u n d e r s t a n d in g - t h e y h a d n o r o le in t h e s c h e m e . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : W e l l I h a v e to a s k t h a t q u e s ti o n a g a i n b e c a u s e y o u 20 h a v e a lr e a d y a d m i tt e d t o h a v i n g a m e e ti n g a t S a x o n w o l d . Have you not? M R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I h a v e C h a ir. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : N o w w o u ld i t r e c o n c il e t h e n t o s a y th a t t h e y h a d n o role scheme and yet you were at Saxonwold? MR THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir, my - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e - t h e Page 188 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 m e e ti n g t h a t w a s o r g a n is e d f o r m e w a s t o m e e t t h e P a r a s p e o p l e w h o w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e - h a d t h e r e s p o n s i b ili t y f o r i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e p r o j e c t b u t t h e y n e v e r h a d a d ir e c t r o l e t o p l a y in th e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f th e project. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : S o w h o w a s f a c il it a ti n g t h is m e e ti n g ? M R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, my u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t th e r e w a s a p e r s o n w h ic h I a m n o t a b l e t o i d e n ti fy w h o w a s fa c ili t a ti n g t h e m e e t in g . A D V B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. C a n y o u c l a r i fy t h is p o i n t ? Yo u s a y w h e n y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d w i t h o n e G u p t a . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? 10 M R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV BUTHELEZI: Had you met him before? M R T H A B E T H E : I h a d n o t m e t h i m b e f o r e C h a ir. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. N o w w h e r e I - I n e e d y o u to t a k e u s t h r o u g h o n e m o r e ti m e is t h is a s p e c t o f y o u b e in g a t S a x o n w o l d a n d th e p e o p l e y o u i n t e r a c t w i th a t S a x o n w o l d a n d th e n a t u r e o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s o f w h a t h a p p e n s w h e n y o u a r r iv e a t S a x o n w o l d . Can you just run us t h r o u g h t h a t o n e m o r e ti m e p le a s e ? MR THABETHE: Ja. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. When - when I a r r iv e d a t - a t t h e m e e ti n g . I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o p e o p le w h o - w h o c a m e 20 fr o m P a r a s a n d in t h a t m e e ti n g I w a s t h e n r e q u e s t e d t o a s s is t t h e m w i t h w o r k - w o r k p e r m i ts . I th e n e x p la i n e d t o t h e m th a t th e is s u e o f t h e w o r k p e r m it s n e e d s to b e fa c i li t a t e d fo r t h e m b y - b y E s t i n a . T h a t - th a t w a s t h e n a t u r e o f th e m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d a t t e n d e d C h a ir. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : W e r e y o u - a ft e r t h is i s s u e b e c a m e a p u b lic is s u e w e r e y o u i n te r v i e w e d b y th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a t a n y p o in t ? Page 189 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: C h a ir, I w a s n o t i n te r v i e w e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. Only of late. A D V B U T H E L E Z I : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y o f l a te ? MR THABETHE: I o n ly g o t a n i n te r v i e w f r o m t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r I t h i n k C h a ir i t w a s t h is y e a r w h e n - w h e n t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r w a s - w a s d e a li n g w i t h th e - th e p a r t ic ip a ti o n o f p o l it ic ia n s . Then I was then a s k e d a n d I w a s i n te r v i e w e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. ADV BUTHELEZI: O k a y. Tw o m o r e p o in t s . C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h is p r o c e s s o f h o w t h e s e a r e m o n i e s - t h e m o n ie s t h a t w e r e a ll o c a te d 10 t o E s ti n a w e r e g a z e t t e d ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir t h e - t h e m o n e y g e ts - g e ts a l lo c a t e d a f t e r w e h a v e s u b m i t te d o u r b u d g e t t o Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e r e - t h e n t h e M E C f o r Tr e a s u r y p r e s e n ts th e P r o v in c i a l B u d g e t S p e e c h a n d - a n d i f a g r e e d t h e n t h e M E C t h e n p r e s e n ts t h e B u d g e t S p e e c h t o th e L e g is l a t u r e a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t h a s b e e n d o n e t h e - t h e b u d g e t g e ts r e f e r r e d t o a c o m m i t t e e i n t h e - in t h e le g is l a t u r e t h a t th e n i n te r r o g a te s a n d a p p r o v e s t h e b u d g e t a n d o n c e t h a t c o m m it t e e h a s th e n a g r e e d o n t h e b u d g e t t h e n t h e b u d g e t g e t s g a z e t te d . ADV BUTHELEZI: 20 N o w m o r e s p e c i f ic a l ly in t h i s i n s t a n c e th e m o n e y t h a t w a s g a z e t t e d w a s th is s p e c if ic a l ly f o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o je c t o r w a s th is f o r a t o t a l it y o f o t h e r p r o je c t s o f w h ic h t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o je c t was just one of them? MR THABETHE: C h a ir m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t w e h a d e x p la i n e d e x a c tl y o n t h e g a z e t ti n g f o r w h a t p u r p o s e t h e m o n e y w a s g o i n g t o b e u s e d f o r a n d w e h a d a ls o s u p p li e d t h e p r o j e c t l is t o f a l l t h e g a z e t te s Page 190 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w e r e th e m o n e y w a s g o in g t o b e - to b e s p e n t. I t w a s n o t o n ly t h e Vr e d e b u t i t w a s a li s t o f Vr e d e p l u s o th e r p r o j e c ts w h e r e a m o u n ts w e r e in d i c a t e d . H o w m u c h is a ll o c a t e d t o - t o w h ic h p r o j e c t . ADV BUTHELEZI: O k a y, t h is l a s t p o in t , w h a t w a s t h e r o le o f t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s i n a ll t h e d e c i s i o n s th a t y o u t o o k w i th r e g a r d s t o t h is project? MR THABETHE: C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f i n s t a n c e s t h a t w e r e r e fe r r e d t o t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s , m o r e s p e c i fic a lly w h e n it c a m e t o d r a f t in g l e g a l d o c u m e n ts , t h e n t h e S t a te L a w A d v i s o r s w i ll c o m e i n a n d 10 a d v is e u s . S o m e w il l b e i n w r i t in g , s o m e w ill b e v e r b a l. ADV BUTHELEZI: Yo u r t e s t i m o n y, th e l a s t ti m e y o u w e r e h e r e , n o t t o d a y, w e n t a l o n g t h e li n e s o f s a y i n g t h a t y o u p r e v e n t e d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y fr o m c o n d u c ti n g c e r ta in in v e s ti g a ti o n s , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? MR THABETHE: ADV BUTHELEZI: I d o C h a ir. I n p r e v e n t in g N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y fr o m c o n d u c t in g t h o s e in v e s t i g a t io n s , d i d y o u c o n s u l t w i t h t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir, my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f p r e v e n ti n g a ls o i n c lu d e d m e p r e v e n t in g N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t o s p e a k t o t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s , w h ic h I h a d s a i d I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f N a t io n a l 20 Tr e a s u r y m u s t s e e k p e r m is s i o n fr o m m e t o t a lk t o t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s . CHAIRPERSON: I’ m n o t s u r e i f – t h a t ’s n a n s w e r to th e q u e s ti o n , Mr B u t h e l e z i I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o j u s t p u t y o u r q u e s t io n a g a i n t o M r T h a b e th e ? ADV BUTHELEZI: T h a n k y o u , I’ ll c o m e b a c k , y o u s a y r ig h t n o w y o u Page 191 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s t o p p e d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y fr o m c o n d u c ti n g a c e r ta i n i n v e s ti g a t i o n , i s that correct? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s w h a t t h e y s a y C h a ir. ADV BUTHELEZI: MR THABETHE: What do you say? It ’s n o t m e w h o s a i d I s t o p p e d t h e m . ADV BUTHELEZI: Okay what do you say? MR THABETHE: I h a d n e v e r s t o p p e d t h e m t o d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n C h a ir, I h a v e n e v e r s to p p e d t h e m . I t ’s th e i r r e p o r t t h a t s a y s s o . ADV BUTHELEZI: 10 W h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y w h e n t h e y w a n t e d t o c o n d u c t in v e s t i g a t io n s ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s b e e n r e q u e s t in g d o c u m e n ts fr o m m e a n d th e y h a v e b e e n r e q u e s ti n g m e e ti n g s fr o m m e b e c a u s e th e y h a d to ld m e th e y a r e c o m i n g t o d o a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . S o t h e r e i s n o w a y I c a n s a y y o u c a n ’t d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . ADV BUTHELEZI: M r T h a b e th e w e ’ ll g o b a c k t o y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e a n d I n e e d y o u t o c la r i fy t h is p o i n t fo r th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e C h a ir i n p a r t ic u l a r. I t w a s y o u r e v i d e n c e , p r e v i o u s l y th a t y o u h a d c e r t a i n m i s g iv i n g s a b o u t t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w a n t e d , do you remember? 20 MR THABETHE: m e e ti n g that Ye s C h a ir, I t h i n k th a t w a s r e la t in g to a p a r t ic u l a r they had r e q u e s te d to have with Es t in a fo r the in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s t h e p a r ti c u la r o n e . ADV BUTHELEZI: M R T H A B E T H E: C a n y o u p r o v i d e m o r e d e t a i ls p l e a s e ? J a C h a ir, w h a t I h a d i n d ic a t e d is t h a t t h e y h a d th e n r e q u e s t e d t o h a v e a m e e t i n g w i t h E s t i n a . W h a t I th e n r e q u e s t e d t h e m Page 192 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 is t h a t i n th e f ir s t m e e ti n g t h a t t h e y ’ r e g o i n g to h a v e w it h E s ti n a w e w o u ld t h e n r e q u e s t th e D e p a r t m e n t t o b e p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g s o t h a t w e a r e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s th a t t h e y h a d r a is e d i n t e r m s o f th e in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r t y, t h a t is w h a t I h a d r a is e d C h a ir. ADV BUTHELEZI: CHAIRPERSON: N o w … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. D id y o u – I ’ m s o r r y, d id y o u – m y r e c o ll e c t io n i s t h a t y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t y o u r a t ti t u d e w a s th a t t h e y s h o u l d n o t h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h Es t in a i f th e D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld n o t b e r e p r e s e n t e d , i s th a t r ig h t ? 10 MR THABETHE: C h a i r t h a t is w h a t I h a d r a i s e d w i t h t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. A D V B U TH E L E Z I : W h e n n e w s f ir s t b r o k e o r p u b l ic a l ly b e c a m e k n o w n a r o u n d t h i n g s h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d E s t i n a , w e r e y o u s ti ll i n th e e m p l o y o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t a t th a t ti m e ? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV BUTHELEZI: D o y o u k n o w a n y t h in g a b o u t m o n i e s t h a t w e r e p a i d in t o t h e Es t in a p r o j e c t t h a t p a i d f o r a w e d d in g ? M R T H A B E T H E : N o I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir. A D V B U T H E L E Z I: 20 W h a t w a s th e D e p a r t m e n t ’s r e s p o n s e t o t h o s e r u m o u r s s u r f a c in g ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir, w e h a d t o m a k e o u r in p u t m o s t o f t h e m e d i a c a m e t o u s a n d w a n t e d o u r v i e w p o in t in t e r m s o f w h a t t h e y h a d r a is e d a n d w e h a d m a d e o u r in p u t i n t o t h a t . A t t h e s a m e ti m e t h e r e w e r e a l s o q u e s t io n s th a t w e r e r a is e d to a s k a t t h e L e g is l a t u r e w h i c h w e w e r e a b le t o r e s p o n d t o th a t , n o w e d i d n o t p a y, a n d w e w e r e a ls o a s k e d to Page 193 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 r e s p o n d t o – I’ m t r y in g t o t h i n k b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f r e q u e s ts t h a t w e r e lo o k in g f o r r e s p o n s e s t o u s . T h o s e th a t I c a n r e m e m b e r f o r n o w, I t h i n k t h o s e w e r e th e o n e s th a t w e h a d t o r e s p o n d t o , t o s a y n o , th a t h a s n o t b e e n c o r r e c t ly i n te r p r e t e d . ADV BUTHELEZI: N o w h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d , w h y t h e n w o u ld a p e r c e p t io n e x i s t i n a s f a r a s s a y i n g , m o n i e s t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e h a d p a i d i n t o E s ti n a w e r e u s e d t o fi n a n c e a w e d d i n g . C a n y o u g iv e r e a s o n s a s to w h y th a t c o n j e c tu r e w o u l d e x i s t? MR THABETHE: 10 ADV BUTHELEZI: I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir, w h e r e i t c a m e fr o m . O k a y, a n d t h e n w h e n d i d y o u s t o p w o r k i n g a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o r a r e y o u s t il l w o r k i n g t h e r e ? MR THABETHE: N o C h a ir, I l a s t w o r k e d t h e r e a t t h e e n d o f A p r i l 2018. ADV BUTHELEZI: MR THABETHE: ADV BUTHELEZI: That is last year? 2 0 1 8 , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r. C a n y o u g iv e u s d e t a ils a r o u n d t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s o f y o u r d e p a r t u r e fr o m h e D e p a r t m e n t ? MR THABETHE: C h a i r m y c o n tr a c t c a m e to a n e n d a t th e e n d o f A p r il 2018. 20 ADV BUTHELEZI: MR THABETHE: ADV BUTHELEZI: MR THABETHE: A n d w h a t a r e y o u d o in g n o w ? C h a i r I ’ m f a r m in g , I’ m a p e n s i o n e r – I ’ m f a r m i n g . Fa r m i n g w h e r e ? In m y h o m e p r o v in c e , w h ic h is M p u m a la n g a i n Ermelo. ADV BUTHELEZI: A r e y o u s a y i n g y o u h a v e a f a r m s ir ? Page 194 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV BUTHELEZI: A lr i g h t th a n k y o u , n o f u r th e r q u e s t i o n s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr B u th e le z i . Mr Thabethe b e f o r e I r e l e a s e y o u , is y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e n e v e r – y o u d id n ’ t h a v e a n y m e e ti n g s o r te l e p h o n e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w it h t h e – w i th a n y b o d y fr o m t h e G u p t a f a mi ly u n l e s s t h e p e r s o n w h o p h o n e d y o u t o a r r a n g e t h e m e e t in g t h a t y o u a t t e n d e d w a s a G u p t a f a m il y m e m b e r b e c a u s e y o u s a i d t h a t o n e d i d p h o n e y o u a f e w t i m e s o r fo r q u i t e s o m e ti m e ? 10 MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u h a d s o m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n w it h t h a t p e r s o n ? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w a s i t o n ly a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g ? MR THABETHE: It w a s a b o u t t h e m e e t in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d w h e n y o u s a y h e d i d c a ll y o u a f e w ti m e s o r w h a t e v e r, a n u m b e r o f t i m e s i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d t h e t i m e o f t h e m e e ti n g ? 20 MR THABETHE: Ye s s ir, to c o n fi r m a r e y o u c o m i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Not at any other time? MR THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr ig h t . ADV GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n , w i th y o u r l e a v e , t h e r e ’s o n e a s p e c t I in d i c a t e d in m y i n tr o d u c t io n th a t I w o u ld li k e to p u t to M r T h a b e th e a n d Page 195 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 it ’s a v e r y s m a l l p o i n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. ADV GCABASHE: I t ’s j u s t t h e d a ir y c o m p a n ie s a n d t h e ir a ffi d a v i t s M r T h a b e th e t h a t w e w e r e a b l e t o g e t fr o m t h e N PA d o c k e t s . S o w e h a v e a n a ff i d a v i t fr o m P a r m a la t , t h e r e ’s o n e fr o m N e s t le S o u t h A f r ic a a n d t h e r e ’s o n e fr o m d a ir y f a r m e r s w h o r e a lly r e p r e s e n t C l o v e r. The long a n d s h o r t o f w h a t th e y s a y i s , a t n o s t a g e d i d y o u in v i t e t h e m t o fo r m p a r t o f e i t h e r a t h i n k ta n k a r o u n d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t o r in v o lv e t h e m i n a n y w a y i n th e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t , th a t ’s c o n t r a r y to w h a t y o u 10 have stated. Th a t y o u r e a c h e d o u t t o t h e m a n d t h e y w e r e n o t in t e r e s te d , d o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n th a t ? MR THABETHE: C h a ir I s ti ll s ta n d o n m y w it n e s s i n g t h a t w e d id c o n s u l t th e m . ADV GCABASHE: T h o s e a ff i d a v i ts , C h a ir m a n c a n b e f o u n d i n r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e F a t p a g e s 2 0 7 2 a l l th e w a y to p a g e 2 11 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , d o w e k n o w w h e th e r t h e p e r s o n w h o h a v e d e p o s e d t o th e a ffi d a v i ts w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e p e r s o n s t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e t a l k e d to ? ADV GCABASHE: 20 C h a ir m a n t h e y s p e a k in t h e ir r e p r e s e n ta t iv e c a p a c i t ie s , r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e o r g a n is a ti o n h a v i n g d o n e a s e a r c h w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t o e s t a b li s h t h e fa c t s t h a t w e r e t h e n p u t to t h e m r e g a r d in g w h a t M r T h a b e t h e a n d th e D e p a r t m e n t h a d s a i d e v e n p r io r t o t h e C o m m is s i o n s t a r t in g C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . S o th e s e a r e i n fa c t , 2 0 1 8 a ff id a v i ts th a t w e r e Page 196 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 s o u r c e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e N PA i n v e s t ig a t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay do you remember the names of the persons t h a t y o u m e t w it h o r i n t e r a c te d w i th w h o c a m e fr o m t h e l o c a l c o m p a n i e s t h a t y o u s a i d y o u i n v i te d to c o m e o n b o a r d a n d p a r t n e r w i th t h e D e p a r t m e n t o n t h i s p r o j e c t b u t t h e y w e r e n o t i n te r e s t e d . Do you remember the names of the persons you spoke to? M R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir, I w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h o b u t it w a s t h e lo c a l p e o p l e i n t h e F r e e S t a te … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: 10 H a v e y o u s e e n th e a ffi d a v it s t h a t s h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t? MR THABETHE: N o I h a v e n ’ t s e e n t h e m C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h e y a r e N PA a ffi d a v it s , i n t h e s e n s e th a t t h e y w e r e o b t a i n e d b y t h e N PA . ADV GCABASHE: Correct Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Oh but he has not seen them? ADV GCABASHE: N o h e h a s n o t C h a ir m a n t h e y ’r e in t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e , u n le s s h e ’s s e e n t h e m p r i o r to … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: N o I th in k h e s h o u l d – t h e y s h o u l d b e m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o h i m a n d h is l a w y e r s t h e n m a y b e h e c a n t h e n p u t i n a s u p p l e m e n ta r y 20 a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e it m a y b e th a t o n c e h e h a s s e e n th e m h e i s a b l e to e i t h e r r e m e m b e r h a v in g d e a l t w it h t h e p e o p l e o r h e m i g h t h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y, I t h in k l e t ’s d o i t th a t w a y. ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s fi n e C h a ir m a n . Ye s s o M r T h a b e th e y o u ’ ll g e t c o p ie s v i a y o u r la w y e r s a n d t h e n a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it w o u ld – s h o u ld b e d e l iv e r e d Page 197 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h e r e y o u c o m m e n t o n t h e c o n te n ts o f th o s e a ffi d a v i ts . M R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, I’l l d o s o . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I n te r ms o f ti m e fr a m e s in t e r m s o f – I t h i n k w e h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t tw o s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t s n o w t h a t M r T h a b e t h e m u s t p u t i n , l e t’s s a y w i th in 1 4 d a y s , Mr B u t h e l e z i w o u l d t h a t b e f in e ? Ja w i t h i n 1 4 d a y s fr o m t o d a y, o k a y a lr ig h t . U n l e s s th e r e ’s s o m e t h in g e ls e 10 M s G c a b a s h e I’ m g o i n g t o r e l e a s e M r T h a b e th e . ADV GCABASHE: M y c o ll e a g u e i s r e m in d i n g m e t h a t M r T h a b e th e h a d e a r l ie r o n i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e w o u ld w a n t t o r e s p o n d to t h e E N S r e p o r t b u t I h a v e a s s u m e d th a t h e h a s e le c t e d n o t to d o s o . CHAIRPERSON: N o a c t u a ll y I w a s t h i n k in g t h e r e ’s s u p p o s e d t o b e s o m e t h i n g o n w h ic h h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o c o m m e n t y e s . No thank you t h a t , Mr T h a b e t h e d o y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t? MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir I w a n t e d t o l a s t ti m e b u t w h e n I i n t e r a c te d w i t h t h e l a w y e r s , w e c h o s e n o t to C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 W e l l i f y o u c h o o s e n o t t o , i t w i ll m e a n t h a t e x c e p t t h a t w h ic h y o u m a y h a v e d is p u te d w h il e o n t h e w it n e s s s t a n d , i t m a y m e a n t h a t – I w il l t a k e i t th a t y o u h a v e n o is s u e s w i t h t h e r e p o r t , is th a t fi n e ? T h a t i s f o r y o u M r T h a b e t h e , s o I w i ll t a k e i t t h a t y o u h a v e n o is s u e s w i t h th e r e p o r t b e c a u s e i f y o u h a d is s u e s y o u w o u ld a r t ic u l a te t h e m a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e u s e d th e o p p o r tu n i ty t o d o s o . MR THABETHE: J a C h a ir, l e t m e s a y w e w i ll r e s p o n d t o i t to g e th e r Page 198 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 w i t h t h e s e o n e s , w e w il l b e a b le to s a y y e s w e d o n ’ t h a v e is s u e o r y e s w e h a v e is s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u w e r e g iv e n t i m e a n d y o u s a i d – y o u ju s t t o l d m e y o u m a d e a n e l e c ti o n M r T h a b e t h e . W e a r e g o in g t o le a v e i t o n t h e b a s is t h a t y o u e l e c t e d n o t t o d o a n y th i n g b u t s h o u ld y o u a n d y o u r la w y e r s l a t e r o n th in k th a t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n th e r ig h t d e c is i o n , y o u r la w y e r s w i ll k n o w h o w i t s h o u ld b e h a n d le d . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 A lr ig h t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Th a b e t h e f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g i v e e v i d e n c e . I f a n y t h i n g a r i s e s w i th r e g a r d to f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n s o r i f a n y f u r t h e r c l a r i f ic a ti o n i s r e q u ir e d , y o u w il l b e c o n ta c t e d b u t fo r n o w t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u . T h a t’s w h e r e w e w ill le a v e i t f o r to d a y a r e th e r e o t h e r E s t in a w i tn e s s e s – th e r e w a s t h e o n e w i t n e s s w h o w a s g o i n g t o t a lk a b o u t m e m b e r s o f P a r li a m e n t a t s o m e s ta g e . A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n th e r e is a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y Mr J a n k i e l s o h n b u t th a t e v i d e n c e d o e s n ’t fi t s q u a r e ly w i t h i n th e E s t i n a Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m e v i d e n c e , I b e li e v e t h a t w il l f a ll 20 w i t h i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e s t r e a m , w o r k s tr e a m , y e s C h a ir m a n . Th e n o f c o u r s e w e h a v e a f e w o t h e r w i t n e s s e s w h o m w e a r e s e r v in g R u l e 1 0 ( 6 ) n o t ic e s o n a n d w e w il l th e n s c h e d u le t h o s e h e a r i n g s w h e n it ’s c o n v e n i e n t f o r y o u t o s c h e d u l e th e m . CHAIRPERSON: A lr i g h t, th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , w e a r e g o in g t o a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d to m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’c lo c k a n d th e Page 199 of 200 28 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 183 e v i d e n c e w i ll b e r e l a ti n g to c e r ta i n m a t te r s c o n n e c t e d w i th N e w A g e . We adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 200 of 200