C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

29 JUNE 2020

D AY 2 2 6

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088
MOBILE: 066 513 1757
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

29 JUNE 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 29 JUNE 2020
CHAIRPERSON:
e v e r y b o d y.

Good

morning

Mr

Soni,

good

morning

B e f o r e w e st a rt I w o u l d l i k e u s t o a l l r i s e a n d I

o b se r v e a m o m e n t o f si l e n c e i n r e m e m b r a n c e o f a l l t h o s e
w h o h a v e p a s se d o n a s a re s u l t o f C o vi d- 1 9 i n t h i s c o u n t r y
a n d e l s e w h e r e i n t h e w o rl d b u t a l s o t o h o n o u r t h e d o ct o r s,
nurses and other health workers who are in the front line in
t h e f i g h t a g a i n st t h e p a n d e m i c. T h a n k yo u .
G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o l e f e t h a n k yo u ve r y m u c h f o r
10

coming

back

e vi d e n c e .

to

the

co m m i s si o n

to

continue

with

your

We a p p r e ci a t e yo u r co m m i t m e n t t o h e l p i n g t h e

c o m m i s si o n .

I t h i n k y o u a r e co m i n g t o t h e co m m i s si o n

p r o b a b l y f o r t h e si xt h t i m e .

We r e a l l y a p p re c i a t e i t , w e

u n d e r st a n d t h a t i t m i g h t m e a n s o m e i n co n v e n i e n ce i n t e r m s
o f y o u r o t h e r w o r k b u t w e a p p re c i a t e t h a t y o u c o n t i n u e t o
s h o w yo u r c o m m i t m e n t t o s u p p o rt i n g t h e c o m m i s si o n .
M R M O L E F E : T h a n k s C h a i r p e r s o n I a m o n p e n si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u m a y b e s e a t e d
Mr Molefe.
20

O h , I t h i n k t h e re – t h e r e w i l l n e e d t o b e t h e

s w e a ri n g – t h e o a t h f i r st b e c a u se i t h a s b e e n a l o n g t i m e b u t
before that I do
something.

not

know

Mr Soni might

wish

to say

I h a v e b e e n a d vi s e d t h a t i t i s a c c e p t a b l e t h a t

whenever I speak or you speak Mr Soni as well as the
w i t n e s s, w e t a k e o ff t h e m a s k a n d t h e n w e p u t i t b a c k w h e n
we are not speaking.

Of course, we intend observing the
Page 3 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
s o ci a l d i st a n ce b u t I d o n o t t h i n k t h e re i s e n o u g h s p a c e
between Zwelihle here.
think is enough.

J u st o n e c h a i r i n b e t w e e n I d o n o t

I t h i n k yo u n e e d t o m o v e f u rt h e r – f u rt h e r

u p o t h e r w i s e I a m l o o ki n g a ro u n d I t h i n k t h e r e i s – o t h e r w i s e
e n o u g h s o ci a l d i st a n ci n g . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u ch . M r S o n i .
ADV SONI SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i rp e r s o n I w o u l d l i k e t o

p l a c e a c c o r d i n g t o … ( m i c r o p h o n e o ff ).
CHAIRPERSON: Please put on your microphone.
ADV SONI SC: Sorry Chairperson. That is according to the
10

a d vi c e w e h a v e r e c e i v e d a s w e l l Mr C h a i r p e r s o n .

Mr Molefe

(i n t e r v e n t i o n ).
CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y a l ri g h t t h e n w e c a n d o t h e o a t h .

Thank you.
REGISTRAR: Please place your full names for the record?
MR MOLEFE: My name is Popo Simon Molefe.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a ve a n y o b j e ct i o n t o t a ki n g t h e

p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ?
MR MOLEFE: I do not.
REGISTRAR:
20

D o y o u co n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i n g o n

y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ?
MR MOLEFE: I do.
REGISTRAR:

D o yo u s w e a r t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e

w i l l b e t h e t ru t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e
t ru t h i f so p l e a s e ra i se yo u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e
God.
Page 4 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE: So help me God.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Ye s M r S o n i .
ADV SONI SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

might

need

to

j u st

re - o r i e n t a t e

e v e r y b o d y w h e r e w e l e f t o ff .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h M r M o l e f e ’s e vi d e n c e
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I n t h e p a st a n d w h e r e w e a r e co n t i n u i n g

there.
ADV SONI SC:

M r C h a i r p e r s o n y o u w i l l re c a l l t h a t t h e l a st

issue that we canvassed with Mr Molefe was the meeting on
the

20

A u g u st

2015

at

which

former

P r e si d e n t

Zuma

a t t e m p t e d t o p e r s u a d e M r M o l e f e t o a s k h i s b o a rd t o t a k e Mr
M o n t a n a b a c k a f t e r h e h a d r e si g n e d a n d t h i s w a s a b o u t si x
weeks after he had left the organisation on the 15 July 2015.
T h e n y o u w i l l a l s o r e ca l l M r C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t M r M o l e f e i n
dealing with that matter dealt with a meeting that he had
h e l d w i t h t h e t o p si x a s ki n g t h e m t o c r e a t e so m e s e m b l a n c e
20

of normality at PRASA on account of the attacks that Mr
M o n t a n a h a d b e e n m a ki n g a g a i n st M r M o l e f e a n d t h e b o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u st o n e s e c o n d .

The air conditioner

s e e m s t o b e o n i t d o e s n o t f e e l l i k e i t i s a h e a t e r i t i s l i ke i t
i s m a ki n g u s c o l d s o I t h i n k so m e b o d y w i l l a t t e n d t o t h a t .
O k a y.
Page 5 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
A D V S O N I S C : M r C h a i rp e r s o n m a y I a s k i f I c a n j u st r e a l l y
briefly deal with that matter because you will recall that one
o f t h e q u e st i o n s I a s ke d a n d y o u a l s o a s k e d M r C h a i rp e r s o n
was whether it – it made sense that the board was being
asked

to

take

Mr

Montana

back

given

the

background

ci r c u m st a n c e s o f w h i c h e ve r y b o d y k n e w. A n d y o u w i l l r e c a l l
t h a t M r M o l e f e s a i d t h a t i t h a d b e e n w i d e l y r e p o rt e d i n t h e
media.

We h a v e si n c e t h e n M r C h a i r p e r so n a n d w e h a v e

augmented the file and at pages 222 to page 258…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s j u st i n d i c a t e …
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y y e s M r C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Which number that file is?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. I t w i l l – B u n d l e D E x h i b i t S S 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: And what page?
ADV SONI SC:

S o t h i s i s t h e a rt i cl e s a r e a t 2 2 2 t o 2 5 8 M r

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e sa m e f i l e t h a t M r

M o l e f e h a s g o t i n f ro n t o f h i m , i s t h a t ri g h t ?
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t – t h a t i s so C h a i r p e r so n y e s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. P a g e 2 2 2 t h a t i s w h e r e t h e y st a rt .
ADV SONI SC: That is so.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

B u t t h e i n st a n ce w h e n I w a s l o o ki n g

a t t h i s f i l e t h e y d i d n o t s e e m t o b e a r r a n g e d a c c o rd i n g t o
d a t e s.
A D V S O N I S C : T h e – t h e a rt i cl e s t h e m s e l v e s a r e n o t .
Page 6 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a rt i cl e (i n t e r v e n e s ).
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Why not?

I thought that they would go

f ro n t t h e e a rl i e st u p t o – w h e n yo u r e a d – w h e n y o u t r y t o
f o l l o w t h e st o ry.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

I had to try and see which one is

s u p p o s e d t o – y o u s e e f o r e x a m p l e a t p a g e 2 2 2 y o u h a ve g o t
a n a rt i c l e o f 7 A u g u st 2 0 1 5 a n d a t p a g e 2 3 8 yo u h a v e g o t a n
10

a rt i c l e o f 6 J u l y 2 0 1 5 .

I mean that is 26 and then at page

2 4 3 y o u h a ve g o t a n a rt i cl e o f 2 3 J u l y 2 0 1 5 .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a rr a n g e d a c c o r d i n g
t o d a t e s.
ADV

SONI

SC:

They

sh o u l d

have

been

a r ra n g e d

c h r o n o l o g i c a l l y ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

So that one could see the build-up.

T h i s i s h o w t h e r e p o rt i n g st a rt e d .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

CHAIRPERSON: And how it – how it built up.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: Up to the date of the meeting.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t e rm s o f w h a t e v e r y o n e m u st h a v e b e e n

seeing in the – in the media.
Page 7 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
A D V S O N I S C : I n t h e m e d i a , y e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n c a n I …
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether it can be changed?
ADV SONI SC: It will be done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC:

M r C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e w i t h r e s p e ct i t –

y o u a r e a b s o l u t e l y ri g h t t h a t i s h o w i t sh o u l d h a v e b e e n
done.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC: I did not…
CHAIRPERSON: Okay the only – the only problem of course
i s t h a t w h e n y o u re f e r t o t h e a rt i cl e s n o w i f y o u m e n t i o n t h e
p a g e n u m b e r s a n d t h e p a g e n u m b e r s a r e g o i n g t o ch a n g e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w i l l b e p ro b l e m w i t h t h e t r a n s c ri p t .

But

it may be that – it may be that later on when the – when this
h a s b e e n c h a n g e d a r ra n g e m e n t s c a n b e m a d e f o r y o u t o
p l a c e o n r e co r d w h a t t h e l a t e st n u m b e r – p a g e n u m b e r s w i l l
20

b e . O k a y, a l ri g h t .
A D V S O N I S C : I a p o l o g i s e C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

O k a y.

It is quite dark where I am.

I

d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g t h a t c a n b e d o n e
a b o u t i t . I k n o w t h a t l a st t i m e t h e r e w a s t h a t s a m e i s s u e b u t
we will continue in the meantime.
Page 8 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .

Chairperson may I

s a y i n r e g a r d t o t h e a rt i cl e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

J u st o n e s e c o n d .

It may well be if

that – if there are problems in getting – need to have better
lighting here it may well be that a gas light might help so
t h a t w h e n I w a n t t o r e a d I ca n s e e t h e w o r d s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C l e a r l y. S o – j a , o k a y a l ri g h t .
ADV SONI SC:
10

Chairperson the – it is not my intention in

re f e rr i n g t o t h e a rt i cl e s t o g o i n t o a n y d e p t h .

The idea is

m e r e l y a g a i n t o e m p h a si s e t h e p o i n t t h a t i t j u st m a d e n o
s e n se a n d i t w a s i n t h e p u b l i c a re n a t h a t t h e re w a s t h i s
incompatibility between Mr Montana and the board.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l a p a rt f r o m a n y i n co m p a t i b i l i t y I t h i n k

f o r m e w h a t i s m o st i m p o rt a n t i s t h e f a ct t h a t t h e q u e st i o n
whether

the

a rt i cl e s

which

were

in

the

media

made

it

re a s o n a b l e f o r u s t o – t o m a k e i t r e a s o n a b l e f o r u s t o e x p e ct
that people who normally read what is in the media would
h a ve b e e n a w a re t h a t a t P R A S A t h e r e a r e a l l t h e s e ve r y
20

s e r i o u s a l l e g a t i o n s o f co r ru p t i o n .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w a s a l l e g e d t o h a ve b e e n t a k i n g

p l a c e s o t h a t w h a t e ve r p r o p o s a l s o r d e ci s i o n s p e o p l e w e r e
m a k i n g t h e y w e r e m a ki n g t h e m b e i n g a w a r e o f a l l o f t h e s e
t h i n g s.
Page 9 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
A D V S O N I S C : A b s o l u t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SONI SC: Mr Molefe.
CHAIRPERSON: I think that it would help me a great deal if
M r M o l e f e i s a b l e a n d y o u r q u e st i o n i n g c a n b e d i re c t e d t h a t
h e i s a b l e t o s a y b a se d o n w h a t I t o l d t h e To p 6 a n y o n e w h o
was in that meeting would have known the following features
10

o f co r r u p t i o n a t P R A S A b e c a u s e I t o l d t h e m .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

1 , 2 , 3 , 4 a t l e a st s o m e o f t h e i m p o rt a n t

o n e s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: It may be that it is something that he might
b e a b l e t o d o w i t h o u t g o i n g b a c k t o re f r e s h h i s m e m o r y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: It may be that it is something that he would
p r e f e r t o r e f r e s h h i s m e m o r y b e f o r e m e n t i o n – sa yi n g i t .
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f w e d o n o t d e a l w i t h i t n o w b e ca u s e

h e m i g h t n o t h a ve – h e m i g h t n e e d t o re f r e sh h i s m e m o r y w e
can deal with it later when he has a time – he has had a
c h a n c e t o r e f r e sh h i s m e m o r y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
Page 10 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I w o u l d l i k e – I w o u l d l i ke t h a t – t h a t

ki n d o f e vi d e n c e t h a t m a k e s i t q u i t e cl e a r t h a t h e r e a r e s o m e
o f t h e f e a t u re s o f c o rr u p t i o n o r a l l e g a t i o n s o f c o rr u p t i o n a t
PRASA that anyone who was at that meeting was told about.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d – a n d C h a i r p e r so n w i t h re s p e ct t h e – i t
w a s n o t j u st a l l e g a t i o n s o f s m a l l c o rr u p t i o n t h i s w a s b i l l i o n s
o f r a n d s. F o r e x a m p l e a m o n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : E x a ct l y.
ADV SONI SC:
10

S o – s o p e r h a p s I sh o u l d a s k M r M o l e f e

whether he would like time to look at it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : O r h e c a n t a l k a b o u t i t n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, n o t h a t i s f i n e . M r M o l e f e y o u h a v e

h e a r d t h e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e C h a i r p e r so n a n d m y s e l f a n d
y o u u n d e r st a n d t h e – t h e i s s u e t h a t ri s e s b e ca u s e t h e w h o l e
q u e st i o n i s s h o u l d so m e t h i n g h a v e b e e n d o n e o t h e r t h a n
calling a meeting on the 20th to say take Mr Montana back?
B u t I – d o yo u w a n t t o g o t h r o u g h t h e a rt i cl e s o r d o y o u k n o w
t h e m s u ff i ci e n t l y ?
20

MR MOLEFE:

C h a i rp e r s o n I – I d o n o t i n t e n d t o g o t h r o u g h

t h e a rt i cl e s u n l e s s C o u n s e l w o u l d l i k e m e t o d o s o a n d re f e r
m e t o sp e ci f i c o n e s.

I mean at the time I read a lot of them

a n d I d i d r e f e r e a rl i e r o n i n m y e vi d e n c e t o t h i s c a m p a i g n t o
vi l i f y t h e b o a r d a n d t o a t t a c k t h e C h a i r o f t h e B o a rd a n d
f o l l o w i n g t h e – t h e f a ct t h a t i n N o v e m b e r o f 2 0 1 4 t h e B o a r d
Page 11 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
had become aware that there was a big tender that was –
t h a t h a d b e e n a d j u d i c a t e d u p o n a n d t h e C h a i r o f t h e Fi n a n c e
C a p i t a l I n v e st m e n t C o m m i t t e e w h o h a d b e e n t h e p r e vi o u s
C h a i r o f t h e B o a r d h a d w a n t e d t h e B o a rd t h a t I w a s c h a i ri n g
t o q u i c kl y a p p r o v e t h a t t e n d e r f o r t h e m o d e r n i s a t i o n o f
B r a a m f o n t e i n D e p o t a n d o f c o u r s e t h e p ro c u r e m e n t o f t h e
ra i l s a n d t u rn o u t s a s p a rt o f t h e p re p a r a t i o n f o r t h e t ra i n s
t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e c o m i n g f r o m B r a zi l w h i c h w e r e b e i n g
m a n u f a ct u r e d i n B r a zi l .
10

And the Chairperson would recall

t h a t d u ri n g m y e vi d e n ce I s a i d t h a t t h e B o a rd h a d b e e n
m i sl e d b y t h e f o r m e r G C E M r M o n t a n a w h o h a d s a i d t h a t h e
h a d a p r o b i t y r e p o rt w h e n w e h a d a s k e d f o r t h e p r o b i t y
re p o rt b e c a u s e w e n e e d e d a s s u r a n c e t h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s
p r o p e r a n d w a s cl e a n .

I t t u r n e d o u t t h a t t h a t r e p o rt d i d n o t

e xi st a n d h e kn e w i t d i d n o t e xi st b u t h e l i e d t o t h e B o a rd .
S o t h a t i s o n e a s p e ct n o w w e e x p o si n g a n d w e st o p t h a t
tender process for that time. It involved well over R2 billion.
A n d t h e n t h e n e xt t i m e i s w h e n w e d i s c o v e r a n d a ct u a l l y
i n si st t h a t M r M o n t a n a g i v e s a re p o rt t h a t i n f a ct t h e P u b l i c
20

P r o t e ct o r w a s n o t o n l y i n v e st i g a t i n g P R A S A b u t h a d b e e n
a s ki n g f o r c o m m e n t s o f P R A S A o n t h e i n t e ri m re p o rt t h a t s h e
had given to PRASA.

T h e C h a i r p e r so n w o u l d r e c a l l t h a t Mr

M o n t a n a t h e n g a v e m e a f i l e c o n t a i n i n g t h a t r e p o rt a r o u n d
M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . N o w t h e se ri e s o f m e d i a r e p o rt s c o m e a f t e r w e
exposed what appears to be corruption at the time.
Page 12 of 204

And of

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
c o u r s e w e w e r e a l re a d y s a yi n g w e h a v e g o t t o i n v e st i g a t e
b e ca u s e t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l a l s o c o m p l a i n s a b o u t t h e a u d i t
o f t h e f i n a n ci a l y e a r.
c o n n e ct C h a i r p e r s o n .

Now there are dots that one can
Chairperson will recall that I – I had

a l s o r e f e r re d t o t h e – w h a t I s a i d w a s P R A S A i n t u rm o i l a n d I
s a i d i t w a s a – a re p o rt b y M r M o n t a n a .

I n f a ct , P R A S A i n

t u r m o i l w a s a s e c t i o n i n t h e r e p o rt o f M r M o n t a n a .

The real

t h i n g i s t h a t M r M o n t a n a h a d w ri t t e n a d e t a i l e d r e p o r t o n t h e
2 7 J u l y a d d r e s s e d t o M i n i st e r J e ff R a d e b e w h o w a s i n t h e
10

P r e si d e n c y.

I d i d s a y t h a t I h a d g o t t e n a c o p y f ro m t h e

w h i st l e - b l o w e r b u t I w a s st r u g g l i n g t o f i n d i t .
C h a i r p e r s o n I a m n o t c o m p u t e r s a v v y.

I r e g re t t h a t

I h a v e f o u n d i t l a st

night.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MOLEFE:

A n d I re a d i t b u t I t ri e d t o s e n d i t w h e r e I

c o u l d – I c o u l d p ri n t i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e n i t l o o k s l i k e I h a v e l o st i t s o I w o u l d

n e e d t o g e t s o m e c o m p u t e r e x p e rt s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e t o a s si st i t b u t i t i s t h e r e p o rt t o

M i n i st e r J e ff R a d e b e o n t h e B o a r d o f P R A S A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: Recent events at PRASA.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
Page 13 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
M R M O L E F E : I t i s a ve r y l o n g r e p o rt .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : W h e n o n e re a d s t h a t re p o rt t h e re i s a – t h e r e
i s a l i n k a n d c o n n e ct i o n b e t w e e n a s e ri e s o f m e d i a a rt i cl e s
a n d w h a t t h a t r e p o rt w a s s a yi n g .

Because a lot of what we

re a d i n t h e s e m e d i a a rt i cl e s a r e a l s o c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t
re p o rt . A n d q u i t e cl e a rl y t h e t a rg e t i n t h a t r e p o rt a n d a s c a n
b e s e e n i n t h e a rt i cl e s a s w e l l i s t h e C h a i r m a n o f t h e B o a r d
is a problematic person.
10

O f c o u r s e , t o s o m e i n st a n ce i n

s o m e o f – i n st a n c e s t h e M i n i st e r o f Tr a n s p o rt w a s a l s o y o u
k n o w t a rg e t e d f o r a t t a c k s.

S o I w i l l l o o k f o r t h a t r e p o rt a n d

t h e n i t w i l l a s si st t h e C h a i r p e r s o n . N o w …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ma y b e b e f o r e y o u – b e f o re y o u l e a v e t h e

re p o rt , I m u st j u s t s a y I k n o w t h a t M r S o n i i s v e r y h a p p y t o
h e a r t h a t t h e r e p o rt h a s b e e n f o u n d . I a m v e r y h a p p y t h a t i t
has been found.

I h a ve b e e n v e r y c o n ce r n e d a b o u t w h e t h e r

we will ever find it.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

They will make arrangements to make IT

p e o p l e a v a i l a b l e t o y o u b e c a u se o b vi o u sl y w e a l s o w a n t t o
h a ve t h e r e p o rt . Yo u w a n t u s t o h a v e t h e r e p o rt s o i f – i f y o u
– i f t h e co m m i s si o n c a n a s si st w i t h I T p e o p l e t h a t t h e y w i l l
b e m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o yo u a n d t h e n w e s h o u l d h a v e i t .
MR

MOLEFE:

I

will

be

pleased

that.

But

C h a i r p e r s o n M i n i s t e r J e ff R a d e b e h a s g o t t h e r e p o rt .

If he

Page 14 of 204

to

hear

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
w a n t s t o h e l p t h e c o m m i s si o n h e t o o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR

MOLEFE:

Can

m a ke

the

r e p o rt

available

for

the

c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I w a s a ct u a l l y t h i n ki n g a s y o u w e re

t e l l i n g m e t h a t – a s y o u w e r e t e l l i n g m e t h a t t h e r e p o rt w a s
a d d r e s s e d t o h i m t h e n i t o c c u r r e d t o m e t h a t t h e n w e co u l d
a s k h i m i f h e h a s – i f h e st i l l h a s i t .
MR MOLEFE: Ja.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

But of course, if you can find it let – that

w i l l e n a b l e u s t o h a ve i t q u i c k e r b u t t h e f o rm e r Mi n i s t e r m a y
h a ve t o – t o a s si st w i t h i s su e s re l a t i n g t o s o m e o f t h e
m a t t e r s t h a t h a ve c o m e h e r e .
M R M O L E F E : I f h e w a n t s t o h e l p t h e c o m m i s si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s – n o , n o I a m – I a m c o n f i d e n t t h a t h e
– h e w i l l m a k e h i m se l f a v a i l a b l e .
M R M O L E F E : N o w C h a i r p e r s o n w h e n I – I a m g o i n g t o co m e
t o t h e m e e t i n g o f t h e – t h e To p 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

M R M O L E F E : B u t w h e n I r e a d t h e r e p o rt l a st n i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
to

the

I t o c c u r r e d t o m e t h a t t h e r e i s a n e xp l a n a t i o n

q u e st i o n

that

the

Chairperson

a s ke d

when

the

C h a i r p e r s o n s a i d , yo u m e a n y o u co u l d st a rt t h e m e e t i n g a t 6
a n d f i n i sh a t 2 ?

I t i s a l o n g r e p o rt a n d o n l y M r M o n t a n a
Page 15 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
k n e w w h a t t h e m e e t i n g w a s a b o u t . H i m t h e P r e si d e n t a n d M r
R a d e b e . B e c a u s e h e s p o k e f o r a l o n g t i m e re f e rri n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

A n d t a l ki n g f ro m t h e n o t e s w h i c h n o w t u r n e d

o u t t h a t i t – i t w a s i n f a ct t h a t – t h a t r e p o rt w h i c h o f c o u r s e
M i n i st e r R a d e b e i n t h e m e e t i n g d e n i e d t o h a v e re c e i v e d i t .
M r M o n t a n a d i d n o t s a y, I w r o t e t h i s r e p o rt t o M r R a d e b e .

I

h a d t o l d M i n i st e r b e f o r e h e w e n t t o t h a t m e e t i n g t h a t I h a d
re c e i v e d t h i s d o c u m e n t l e a k e d t o m e b y a w h i st l e - b l o w e r a n d
10

s o s h e w a n t e d M r R a d e b e t o g i v e h e r co p y a n d h e d e n i e d
that he had it in that.

But it explains why that meeting was

…
CHAIRPERSON:

J u st o n e s e c o n d .

J u st o n e s e c o n d M r

M o l e f e I w a n t t o u n d e r st a n d t h a t p a rt . A r e y o u s a yi n g t h a t a t
the meeting Mr Montana indicated that he had sent the
re p o rt t o t h e Mi n i s t e r ?
MR MOLEFE: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh no.
MR MOLEFE:
20

H e d i d n o t s a y so b u t h e w a s s a yi n g t h i n g s

t h a t a r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t r e p o rt .

No, no Mr Montana was

s a yi n g t h i n g s t h a t w e r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e r e p o rt . A n d s o m e o f
t h e q u e st i o n s t h a t t h e P r e si d e n t a l s o c o m m e n t s h e w a s
m a k i n g i t i s cl e a r a r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t re p o rt .

And you will

s e e t h e l i n k b e t w e e n t h a t a n d t h e s e a rt i cl e s.

T h e e s s e n ce

w a s t h a t I a m L u c k y M o n t a n a , I a m t h e b e st G r o u p C E O o f
Page 16 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
this organisation.
want

to

give

I can build PRASA.

me

d e st r o yi n g m e .

the

o p p o rt u n i t y

T h i s b o a rd d o e s n o t

to

do

that

they

a re

T h e r e i s n o b o d y e l se w h o c a n r u n t h i s

organisation but me.

And I told them that although I said I

d o n o t w a n t e xt e n si o n o n m y c o n t ra ct I h a v e c h a n g e d m y
m i n d n o w.

I f y o u w a n t m e I ca n c o m e b a c k.

And which is

w h a t t h e P r e si d e n t w a s t r yi n g t o d o t o sa y n o , n o .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

my

re c o l l e ct i o n

is

that

in

your

e vi d e n c e l a st t i m e y o u a ct u a l l y s a i d t h e P re s i d e n t a l s o sa i d
10

M r M o n t a n a i s t h e b e st g u y t o d o t h i s j o b .
MR MOLEFE:
you

read

A n d a s I re a d t h e r e p o rt a n d o f c o u r s e w h e n

these

a rt i cl e s

you

see

what

South

A f ri c a n

C o m m u t e r s O r g a n i s a t i o n sa y s e v e n s o m e w h e re a n d h e i s
s a yi n g i n t h e a rt i c l e a n d w h a t Z e n z o M a h l a n g u I r e f e r t o h i m
i n m y e vi d e n c e e a rl i e r o n h e h a d b e e n t h e G e n e r a l S e c re t a r y
o f S ATAW U w h o s e u n i o n w a s a l s o d o i n g b u si n e s s o f c o u r s e
with the – with PRASA through I think a company called
B l a c k st a r

but

they

had

belonged to the union.
20

a

t r u st

called

Bashume

which

When you – so it is a common

m e s s a g e s o a r o u n d w h i c h a l l o f t h e se f o r ce s w e r e b e i n g
m o b i l i se d a g a i n st t h e B o a r d t o s o m e e xt e n t a g a i n st t h e
M i n i st e r o f Tr a n s p o rt a s w e l l .
w i d e l y kn o w n a t t h e t i m e ?

So – so now was corruption

We h a d a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h t h e

B r a a m f o n t e i n D e p o t a n d w e st o p p e d i t .

We m a d e i t cl e a r

t h a t w e a r e st o p p i n g i t b e ca u s e i t w a s i r re g u l a r a n d i t
Page 17 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
i n v o l v e d b i l l i o n s o f r a n d s.

W h e n I b ri e f e d t h e To p 6 o f t h e

g o ve r n i n g p a rt y – m y p a rt y I r e f e r r e d t o t h e f a ct t h a t o u r
i n v e st i g a t i o n s sh o w t h a t w e h a v e b e e n m i s l e d .

There was

t h i s t e n d e r t h a t w a s a b o u t t o b e i s s u e d w h i c h w a s i rr e g u l a r
a n d w e st o p p e d i t .

A n d w e a r e c o n d u ct i n g s e v e r a l o t h e r

i n v e st i g a t i o n s w h i c h I r e v e a l a m a s si v e c o r r u p t i o n w i t h i n t h e
organisation there.

So – so it was known at that time that

t h e r e w a s t h i s m a s si v e c o r ru p t i o n b u t t h e s p e e d i n w h i c h t h e
m e d i a c a m p a i g n m a s s m o b i l i s a t i o n d e m o n st r a t i o n a n d a l l
10

t h e se o t h e r f o r c e s a re b e i n g m o b i l i s e d a g a i n st t h e B o a r d
cl e a rl y t o m e w a s i n t e n d e d t o st o p t h o se i n v e st i g a t i o n s.

So

t o g e t t h e se p e o p l e o u t o f t h e w a y b e f o r e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s
a r e f u l l y co n cl u d e d . N o w C h a i r p e r s o n i f y o u l o o k a t w h a t w e
h a ve s e e n i n t h i s p r o c e s s o f S t a t e C a p t u r e i t s e l f a n d I d i d
s a y s o a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f m y e v i d e n ce a s w e l l t h a t f o r i t t o
s u c c e e d s y st e m s i n o r g a n i s a t i o n s m u st b e b r o k e n , m u st b e
weakened.

And I did say that good people were being

re m o v e d f r o m p o s i t i o n s a n d s u b st i t u t e d b y p e o p l e w h o w e r e
c o m p l i a n t w h o w o u l d c a rr y o u t t h e a g e n d a w h o s e o b j e ct i v e i s
20

the looting of the public purse and this central message
being that one of State Capture.
people

feel

that

this

B o a rd

S o – so h e r e t o s u d d e n l y
is

a

problematic

board.

C o rr u p t i o n c a n n o t co n t i n u e f o r a s l o n g a s t h e s e p e o p l e a re
i n o ff i c e .

B u t t h e m o st p r o b l e m a t i c o n e i s t h i s o n e c a l l e d

P o p o M o l e f e w h o i s t h e C h a i rm a n o f t h e B o a r d . Ja . G e t h i m
Page 18 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
o u t o f t h e w a y a n d t h e n w e c a n g o b a c k t o – t o o u r b u si n e s s
as usual.

So – so really that – that was the agenda.

Yo u

s e e vi l i f i c a t i o n I m e a n l i e s t h a t a r e b e i n g t o l d h e r e a b o u t m e
being

c o r ru p t ,

judgment

in

me

being

c o u rt

were

doing

this

e vi d e n c e

and

that.

a ri si n g

out

And

the

of

our

i n v e st i g a t i o n w e r e p r e s e n t e d c o n f i rm e d t h e c o r r e ct n e s s o f
t h e p o si t i o n s t h a t w e t o o k a n d p ro v e s a l i e o f w h a t Mr
M o n t a n a a n d a l l o f t h e se p e o p l e w e re sa y i n g .

B e c a u se I

m e a n i t w e n t ri g h t u p t o t h e C o n st i t u t i o n a l C o u rt , a n d o u r
10

position as the board of PRASA was repeatedly confirmed.
So, Chairperson, yes, it was public knowledge, the leaders
knew about that corruption.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, thank you, Mr Molefe, why what was

known in the public domain and what you told the top six at
that meeting is important is because the top six are the top
leaders of the governing party and most of them would
have been in government as well and for me, the question
arises, if they are told by the Chairperson of a board of an
government entity such as PRASA that there is a lot of
20

corruption that we see has been happening, or that we
think has been happening, and we are taking steps to
investigate, I want to know what they did after that about
what you told them.
I want to know what they did, not from you because
you told me already that they never came back to you for
Page 19 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
anything, but I want to know when they come here, I want
to know what they did about that.
We are all aware of what is in the public domain
a b o u t P R A S A , e v e n n o w.

We are all aware about what is

in the public domain about other SOEs about which there
have

been

a

lot

of

evidence

of

corruption

in

this

Commission, SAA, Eskom, Denel and it would appear that
t h e s e t h i n g s d o n o t s t a r t j u s t n o w, t h e s e t h i n g s s e e m t o
have started a long time ago and it is only proper that this
10

Commission should ask the question to some of those
people, where were you, what did you do about this?
you not have a responsibility to do something?

Did

So that is

w h y i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o m e t o k n o w, a p a r t f r o m w h a t w a s i n
the media.
We have the advantage that you had a meeting with
the top six and you told that you alerted them and are
there no steps that they ought to have taken, maybe which
would have made sure that PRASA is not where it is today
in
20

terms

of

its

financial

position

and

that

is

part

of

accountability and part of what we have to look at.
I mean, you were here last time when we touched
on the issue of parliamentary oversight.

I asked the same

questions about parliament.
Where was parliament when all of these things – all
of this corruption appears to have been happening all
Page 20 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
these years, what were they doing about it?
They have a right to call the President and say what
is going on under your government?

What is going on with

your minister so and so who is not doing his or her job?
T h e y c a n c a l l t h e m i n i s t e r, t h e y c a n c a l l t h e D G s ,
they can follow up, they can put that alliance and say if
you do not fix this by such and such a time, we will pass a
vote of no confidence in the whole cabinet.
MR MOLEFE:
10

Chairperson, at the – if counsel agrees at

the end of my evidence, I would like us to do – well,
counsel can tell us when to do it, but I would like us to do
what we will call do connecting of the dots.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s . Ye s .

Because in all of that we can go right to the

various ministers, the portfolio committees of parliament.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Speaker of Parliament.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ye s .

And then letters we wrote.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

Yo u k n o w, t h e e f f o r t s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

Yo u w r o t e , y e s , y e s , y e s .

All of those things and then we can say but

what does this mean?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.
Page 21 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

And then when we are busy with this sort of

thing and the minister stands in parliament says I am
dissolving this board.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, certainly that is a very important

part.
MR MOLEFE:

So we will have to connect all of those at

some point.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ja, yes.

Because they give a picture.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MOLEFE:

Of – and I may want to ask a tough

question as well which is similar to what the Chairperson is
saying.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

That …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, we will do that and I will leave it

to counsel to see where the right time is.

It might be at

the end when you have all the evidence to then raise the
issue.
20

I

have

said

publicly that

I have

spoken

to

the

Speaker of Parliament and the Chairperson of the NCOP
and said that I think that parliament may need to start
working on the issue of how it has carried out its oversight
functions over the past x number of years and be able to
come before the Commission at some stage and indicate
Page 22 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
what is revealed by an exercise of checking.
And,

in

p a r t i c u l a r.

I

am

looking

at

the

SOEs,

specific SOEs about which we have heard a lot of evidence
here but also certain government departments and other
functionaries to say what did they do?

Did they do their

job properly because it may well be that if they had done
their job the way it should be done, maybe certain things
might not have happened.
But it may well be that they are able to come here
10

and

say

look,

these

are

our

limitations

in

terms

of

mechanisms that are available to us and these are our
limitations in terms of resources, we went as far as we
could.
If we are in the future going to be expected to do
more, certain changes must be made to enable us to do
that,

then

that

is

fine

but

I

do

not

think

that

this

Commission can be said to have properly finished its job
without hearing what parliament did. Thank you.
ADV SONI SC:
20

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Mr Molefe, may I just

say that I am pleased you raised the issue of right at the
end connecting all the dots because I just want to make
this

comment

before

we

go

on

with

the

rest

of

your

evidence.
Yo u a r e i n a u n i q u e p o s i t i o n , a s I s e e i t , y o u h a v e
the communication with the President in regard to the
Page 23 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
matters you have described already which does not make
too much sense and we have debated that.
Then your board is dismissed.
instead

of

parliament

exercising

As you have said,
oversight

over

the

m i n i s t e r, t h e m i n i s t e r g o e s t o t h e p o r t f o l i o c o m m i t t e e a n d
announces the dissolvement of the board before then and
she is not asked why did you do – I want to raise all those
things.
And then you go to the police and say but look, we
10

have got people who are involved in fraud amounting to
billions of rands and they do nothing about it.
That is all contained in here and so I am pleased
you have raised this question because I was going to do
that but I am pleased in the sense you have also looked at
the big picture.
But before we go on with your evidence, there are
three matters I want to raise with you in relation to what
you have said this morning.
Yo u s a i d t h e m a t t e r – o n e o f t h e m a t t e r s w e n t t o t h e

20

C C , t h a t i s t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r, a m I r i g h t ?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , i t d i d s a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u s t t e l l h i m w h e n y o u s a y C C , y o u

mean Constitutional Court.
ADV

SONI

SC:

I

Constitutional Court, yes.

beg

your

pardon,

yes.

The

Ye s , i s t h a t t h e j u d g m e n t y o u

Page 24 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
are referring to?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct.

ADV SONI SC:

And we have been through the fact that

both the High Court and the Supreme Court of Appeal said
there was corruption and they fingered two people, Mr
Montana and Mr Mtimkulu and I mention them because you
mention them later in your evidence.
The second thing I want to ask you was, earlier on
you said that the former Chairperson of the board wanted
10

t o h a s t e n t h e B r a a m f o n t e i n t e n d e r.

Do you recall saying

that a little while ago?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , I d i d s a y t h a t .

ADV SONI SC:

Who is the Chairperson because, I mean,

I know – I just wanted a name to it.
MR MOLEFE:

The Chairperson or my predecessor was –

is currently one of the Deputy Ministers, Mr Buthelezi,
Sifiso Buthelezi.
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Mr Sifiso Buthelezi.
But at the time in November when he

brought the submission, he was the Chairperson of the
Finance and Capital Investment Committee.
ADV SONI SC:

And he, at the same time that Mr Montana

said he was leaving right at the outset of your tenure as
Chairperson, he also told you he was resigning from the
board.
Page 25 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

H e a c t u a l l y g i v e m e h i s r e s i g n a t i o n l e t t e r,

that is in the – when the board was meeting and he was
making

the

submission

for

the

Braamfontein

–

on

the

Braamfontein depot modernisation.
ADV SONI SC:

So he was pushing this through before he

left the board?
MR MOLEFE:

H e w a s – t h a t w a s t h e l a s t t h i n g , y o u k n o w,

contract he wanted approved before he left. Whether there
w a s r e a s o n f o r h i m t o h a v e d e l a y e d i t o r – I d o n o t k n o w.
10

Of course, when I read Mr Montana’s report to Minister Jeff
Radebe, he blames the board

for having delayed that

tender whereas we were seeing it for the first time at that
m e e t i n g i n N o v e m b e r.
B u t , b e i t a s i t m a y, h e w a n t e d i t a p p r o v e d a s h e
was leaving.

Whether there was any motive or not, I do

n o t k n o w, a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o i m p u t e a n y m o t i v e t o t h a t .
ADV SONI SC:

No, I understand.

F i n a l l y, a t t h e m e e t i n g

of the 20 August, Minister Dipuo Peters asked Minister
Radebe about the PRASA internal report. Asked for a copy
20

of the report.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , b u t I d i d s a y t h a t t h e t i t l e o f t h e r e p o r t

is not PRAS A Internal, it is the report of Minister Jeff
Radebe on the board of PRASA and it set out what it says
are recent events.

And somewhere in the report of course

there is a section that refers to PRASA in turmoil.
Page 26 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I j u s t w a n t t o – I k n o w y o u a r e

looking both at me and counsel whereas you answer –
r e m e m b e r t o l o o k m o r e a t m e t h a n h i m . Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:

Now on your understanding, Minister

Radebe had the report because it was addressed to him.
MR MOLEFE:

He had it.

ADV SONI SC:

When Minister Dipuo Peters asked for the

report what was Minister Radebe’s response?
MR MOLEFE:
10

He said he did not have it.

ADV SONI SC:

Did that surprise you?

MR MOLEFE:

Well, I – Chairperson, I knew he had it

because it came – the whistle blower brought it from his
office and it was addressed to him and clearly the manner
in which the meeting was conducted found its basis in that
report because it was about what Montana was saying
l a r g e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o r e f r e s h m y m e m o r y, t h i s r e p o r t ,

you had – did you have a – had you seen the report at the
time of the meeting yourself?
20

MR MOLEFE:

I h a d s e e n i t m u c h e a r l i e r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR

But

MOLEFE:

because

it

document...
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .

...I …[intervenes]
Page 27 of 204

was

such

a

sensitive

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

It was not official.

It was not official.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.

So but what …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

But it existed long before the meeting,

that is the point you can make?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e p o r t w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e 2 7 J u l y,

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Ja, yes.
The meeting took place around the 20

August.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

And it was

addressed to Minister Radebe?
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

I take it before the meeting you would

have told Minister Peters about this report.
MR MOLEFE:
m u c h e a r l i e r.
20

I d i d C h a i r.

Not that day of the meeting,

I d i d s a y t o h e r, y o u k n o w, I h a v e s e e n t h i s

kind of a document.

Of course, I had given it to the

lawyers also to keep. Now I have been trying to get it from
them, they do not know what they have done to it. Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

Ja, but I had told Minister Dipuo Peters and

that is why in that meeting he said …[intervenes]
Page 28 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

She asked for it.

She asked for it.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

J a , o k a y.
F i n a l l y, i n r e g a r d t o t h e r e p o r t , M r M o l e f e ,

I reiterate the invitation of the Chairperson to make use of
facilities at the Commission.

I am confident that if you

gave them the laptop or computer where that was, they
would find it.
MR MOLEFE:
10

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SONI SC:

It has taken a long time to get here, Mr

Molefe,

but

may

I

then

ask

that

we

go

back

to

…[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

Did I talk too much?

ADV SONI SC:

N o , n o , n o , s o r r y, w e h a v e b e e n a s k i n g

questions outside the ambit because, as the Chairperson
pointed out, this is pivotal to the work of the Commission.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:
20

Certainly in regard to PRASA.

Can I then

ask, you have this meeting with the President and in the
next topic you discuss is the dismissal of the board.

Now

can you tell us – we know that on the 8 March 2017 the
Minister dismissed the board.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i , I m a y h a v e I

misunderstood you but I thought your plan was to take Mr
Page 29 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Molefe to the media articles briefly before you go to the
meetings to highlight all the certain features.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Or do you think that – I think it is

important, he may have mentioned some of the things but it
is important like maybe to simply highlight some of the
features in the articles before we go to the meeting or is
your plan to …[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:
10

I was hoping that I would use the key

interval to pick out about five of the articles.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, t h a t i s f i n e , t h a t i s f i n e , t h a t i s

fine.
ADV SONI SC:

B u t I c o u l d d o i t n o w, i t i s j u s t t h a t i t m a y

take a little longer because I could identify …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , i t i s f i n e , w e c a n d o i t l a t e r, j a .

ADV SONI SC:

So we know that the Minister on the 8

March 2017 purported to dismiss the board and I say
purported because that dismissal was set aside.
were the reasons that led to that decision?
20

But what

Yo u d e a l w i t h

from paragraph 93 of your affidavit, Mr Molefe.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

What paragraph?
Paragraph 93, Chairperson, page 24.
Ye s t h a n k y o u .
Well, it starts off with the question of

appointing a replacement for Mr Montana after he left on
Page 30 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
the 15 July 2015.
MR MOLEFE:

Counsel, you are asking what were the

reasons for the dissolution of the board?

Is that the

question?
ADV SONI

SC:

Ye s .

Well,

ja, and

what

were the

circumstances leading up to it.
CHAIRPERSON:

And insofar as you are asked what the

reasons were, Mr Molefe, you must feel free to indicate
what reasons were given by the Minister for her decision
10

and to say what, on your analysis of the situation, the
reasons were, whether you agree that those were the
reasons or you say the reasons were different for this and
that that reason.

So I just alert you that even though the

question is put like that, there may be a difference – you
might have a different view about what the reasons were to
t h e r e a s o n s t h a t w e r e g i v e n b y t h e M i n i s t e r.
MR MOLEFE:

The first point, Chairperson, is that Mr

Montana leaves because his contract is ending and he says
he
20

does not

extension.

want

extension

but

in

r e a l i t y,

he

wanted

H e w a n t e d a n o t h e r c o n t r a c t a n d c l e a r l y, t h e

Minister herself – it will be coming perhaps when you
connect those dots you will now see that the Minister is
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k – I a m s o r r y, M r M o l e f e .

If,

as you give your evidence or as you answer any question,
Page 31 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
there is an aspect of connecting the dots that you think is
appropriate to do there and then, feel free to do it, not wait
until later but later on we can wrap up.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

But – so if it is convenient, connect the

dots as you go along.
MR MOLEFE:

Will do so, Chairperson.

The board, as

Montana left, wanted to appoint a new group CEO and it
had gone through an elaborate process of interviewing and
10

had identified a person for that position.
Now in terms of the shareholders’ compact and the
memorandum

of

incorporation,

the

board

needs

to

recommend to the Minister and then of course has got its
own protocols, she has then to take it to the President and
to the relevant committee of the cabinet and come back.
Cabinet

must

appointment

approve
of

Commissioners,

group

because
CEOs,

Chairpersons

of

the

cabinet

Directors
board

and

approves
Generals,
directors,

board of directors, ja. She was reluctant. She had told me
20

that she agrees with me, she is not going to change
anything, she is going to present it as it was but there was
no movement.
And the next thing then, she wanted us to appoint
in an acting capacity a person who was a Chief Financial
O f f i c e r i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t , M r C o l l i n s L e t s o a l o .
Page 32 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you proceed, Mr Molefe, you

said, I think, the board had conducted interviews and had
identified a person that they believed could be Group CEO
a n d h a d m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o t h e M i n i s t e r, i s t h a t
correct?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

It may help, but you – if there are

reasons – maybe there are reasons you might be reluctant,
might have to look that, it may help if we know who was
10

recommended.
regard

to

I say that because I have had evidence in

other

SOEs

where

a

board

recommended

a

candidate for the position of Group CEO and the board –
and the Minister at the time gave evidence here and said
she was in support of that candidate but she said the
former President made it clear to her that he wanted a
certain person and no one else to take that position.
Of course, the former President has denied saying
that and that will be dealt with later on. He must still come
to give further evidence.
20

S o I a m – a n d I h a v e , i n r e g a r d t o t h a t m a t t e r, I
asked whether this was a credible candidate and whether
the former President, if he was not keen to have this
person appointed, whether he questioned the qualifications
or experience of that candidate and I was told by the
Minister – or gave that evidence that no, there was no
Page 33 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
questioning

of

the

qualifications

or

experience

of

the

candidate that was proposed.
So
important

it

becomes

to

say

important

here

is

a

–

it

may

candidate

become

that

was

recommended, he is a credible candidate, has got all the
qualifications, has got all the experience, what was the
problem with going with that candidate?
So I mention that because it might be helpful but if
you
10

have

some

reasons

that

make

you

reluctant

to

disclose, that is fine.
MR MOLEFE:
l a d y.
the

No, I will disclose it, Chairperson, it was a

I did not know her before that and I was not even in
panel

Modipane

that

interviewed.

Sesoko.

She

Her
had

name

was

previously

Lauriette

worked

for

Metrorail. Now …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Let us just get the spelling, Lauriette

and the surname?
MR MOLEFE:

Sesoko Modipane. Modipane.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR MOLEFE:

M-o-d-i-p-a-n-e.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

Sesoko is S-e-s-o-k-o.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

She had worked for Metrorail.

CHAIRPERSON:

In what capacity?
Page 34 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

She had been the CEO of Metrorail or

general - the chief of Metrorail, CEO, Metrorail.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

CEO, ja.

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

Yo u k n o w, w h i c h i s t h e t r a i n – t h e o p e r a t i n g

division of PRASA which moves passengers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MOLEFE:
10

Which is fundamentally the mandate of

PRASA.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja. So she had worked in a position that

is very much the CEO’s position under PRASA.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

But the Minister never raised any concerns

about that except that they delayed, delayed, delayed, they
were not moving.
letters

to

the

I am sure again I can produce several

M i n i s t e r.

In

some

instances

when

the

Minister would say PRASA is – this board is not doing its
20

job or PRASA is not performing, I would say the board is
not operational, it cannot do the job, we need to have
proper management team and management team is put
together by the Group CEO, approve the appointment of
the Group CEO so that we can get going and get our work
done.
Page 35 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
And she – it was just delaying, delaying and it is
there, I am sure, correspondence would show that, that we
raised that.

S o w e d o n o t k n o w b u t I , i n h i n d s i g h t n o w,

when you look at the meeting of August, you look at the
report where Montana says and he is writing to Minister
Jeff Radebe and the President says I am the best man, I
am available, this board does not want me to do my job, he
is interfering with me.
So what seems to have been then the reason is
10

that they wanted to bring Mr Montana back but the way to
do so is to block the appointment of the CEO and then
ultimately to remove the board of directors.
It is linked also to the investigations because when
Mr Letsoalo, as you would see, probably later on, comes in
to act, he says – and the Minister says Letsoala must now
be in charge of the investigations.
Now if you are investigating, the management team
that is corrupt, you do not know who is corrupt, who is not
corrupt.

20

Yo u d o n o t g i v e i t t o t h e m t o d o t h e j o b b e c a u s e

then you are not going to get the truth out of it and that is
why the board wanted this investigation to be done by an
entity that is outside PRAS A which reports to the - and the
chair of the Audit Committee and the chairman of the board
and

they

would

re p o rt

regularly

together

with

the

i n v e st i g a t o r s t o t h e B o a r d o f D i re ct o r s a n d t o t h e Mi n i st e r o f
Page 36 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Tr a n s p o rt w h i c h . . . w h i c h i s w h a t w e h a ve d o n e .
B u t t h e y w a n t e d a l l o f t h a t o u t o f t h e w a y u h , cl e a rl y
t o f ru st r a t e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s s o t h a t t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s, t h e y
not produce uh, the truth about what is happening in the
organisation.
A n d I a s k e d t h e q u e st i o n w h y w o u l d t h e y n o t w a n t t o
do that?

H’m?

I f t h e y a r e i n t e r e st e d i n g e t t i n g t h e st a t e -

o w n e d c o m p a n y t o f u n ct i o n a n d f u n ct i o n p r o p e rl y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

We l l , u h , p l e a se u h , I w a n t t o . . . t o s e e a l l

o f t h o se l e t t e r s y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .

So I want all of that

e vi d e n c e u h , b e c a u se yo u . . . y o u a r e a s ki n g t h a t t h e . . . t h e
m i n i st e r d e l a y e d f o r a l o n g t i m e u h , t o h a v e a d e c i si o n m a d e ,
I g u e s s, o n yo u r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a t t h e b o a r d .
A n d u h , a t a c e r t a i n st a g e , sh e t o l d y o u w h a t y o u
said.

She told you um, in the regard the matter that was

t a l ki n g a b o u t .
Uh, I mean, it is in the public domain.

Evidence was

g i v e n h e r e . I t i s u h , t h e f e e l i n g o f t h e p o si t i o n o f G r o u p C E O
f o r Tr a n s n e t a f t e r t h e d e p a rt u r e o f M s R a m o s.
20

U h , . . . u h , . . . u h , . . . M s B a r b a ra H o g a n g a v e e vi d e n c e
t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h e Tr a n sn e t B o a r d a t t h e t i m e r e co m m e n d e d
u h , m i st e r, I t h i n k , S i p h o M a s e k o u h , f o r t h e p o si t i o n a n d t h e
board was of the opinion that uh, Mr Siyabonga Gama was
u h , u h , n o t s u i t a b l e f o r t h e p o si t i o n i f h e w a s a c a n d i d a t e .
Um,

and

in

any

event

uh,

Page 37 of 204

there

were

some

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
a l l e g a t i o n s o f m i s c o n d u ct t h a t t h e y t h o u g h t w a s a w a re o f
t h e m , b u t I . . . I t h i n k t h e e vi d e n c e w a s, t h e b o a r d s a i d , “ w e
j u st t o o k h i m i n t o a c c o u n t w h e t h e r h e w a s s u i t a b l e ”.
k n o w,

“we

have

left

out

of

the

a c c o u n t ”.

Yo u

Even

the

a l l e g a t i o n s.
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

I f I m u st n o w g i v e e vi d e n c e t o t h a t e ff e ct .
Oh, Chairperson.

I w a s i n t h e c o m m i s si o n

w h e n t h e m i n i st e r g a ve h e r e vi d e n c e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , y o u w e re h e r e ?

I was here.

CHAIRPERSON:
filled

for

over

Ye s. S o . . . s o t h a t . . . t h a t p o si t i o n w a s n o t
a

year

uh,...

um,...

and

uh,...

so

I

am

w o n d e ri n g w h e t h e r n o w, t h e d e l a y s y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t
after your board had made a recommendation as to who
s h o u l d f i l l t h e p o si t i o n o f g r o u p . . . g r o u p C E O , r e f l e ct s a
pattern

that

may

have

been

happening

with

um,

the

a p p o i n t m e n t o f G r o u p C E O f o r s o m e o f t h e S O E ’s.
S o I w a n t . . . I w o u l d l i k e a l l o f t h a t e vi d e n c e , a l l o f
20

t h o se l e t t e r s. I f yo u a re a b l e t o g e t t h a t , w e w o u l d l i k e t h e m
here.
MR MOLEFE:

T h a n k yo u , C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

ADV SONI SC:

[ t h r o a t cl e a ri n g ]

Mi st e r [ t h ro a t cl e a ri n g ]

M o l e f e , c a n I j u st g o b a c k t o a n i s s u e y o u s a i d o r y o u
Page 38 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
s u g g e st e d w h a t t h e g a m e p l a n w a s, t h a t t h e y w o u l d f ru st r a t e
the

appointment

of

a

Group

CEO

and

then

eventually

M o n t a n a w o u l d c o m e b a c k a s t h e G ro u p C E O . T h a t i s. . . t h a t
i s w h a t yo u s a i d .
MR MOLEFE:
ADV

SONI

H’m.
SC:

We l l ,

I

j u st

want

to

say

to

yo u

t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , I a m s o rr y M r S o n i .

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s ?
10

CHAIRPERSON:
q u i t e i m p o rt a n t .

U m , t h e c o n n e ct i n g o f t h e d o t s i s. . . i s
I mean, of course, anybody can come later

a n d sa y, “ n o , t h i s c o m m i t t i n g o f t h e d o t s t h a t yo u a r e t a l ki n g
about is not proper because of the following evidence that
y o u h a v e n o t a d d , Mr C h a i rp e r s o n ”.
T h a t u h , w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e g r o u p C E O f o r Tr a n s n e t ,
there was that delay uh, for the filling of the position of
Gross CEO and the candidate who had been recommended
b y t h e b o a r d h a d t o u h , m a k e h i s o t h e r p l a n s b e c a u se h e
was kept waiting for too long.
20

A n d t h e n M r G a m a w a s d i s m i s s e d a f t e r a d i s ci p l i n a r y
p r o c e s s u h , i n u h , a t t h e e n d o f J u n e 2 0 1 0 . T h e p o si t i o n h a d
b e co m e v a c a n t , I t h i n k e a rl y i n 2 0 0 9 i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n .
So already by mid-June... by mid-year 2010, there... there
w a s u m , st i l l t h e p o si t i o n , i t w a s n o t f i l l e d .
ADV SONI SC: H’m.
Page 39 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n t h e Mi n i st e r B a rb a r a H o g a n w a s

d i s m i s se d f r o m c a b i n e t a t t h e e n d o f O ct o b e r.

Uh, another

m i n i st e r w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e n t h e e vi d e n c e w i l l c o m e l a t e r
u p o n a n d t h e n M r G a m a w a s r e i n st a t e d u h , i n F e b r u a r y u h ,
o r u h , Ma r c h / A p r i l 2 0 11 t o b e c o m e . . . t o g o b a c k t o h i s
p o si t i o n a s u h , C E O o f G F R .
A n d t h e n w h e n . . . w h e n B ri a n M o l e f e l e f t f o r E s k o m ,
t h e n G a m a w a s m a d e G r o u p C E O o f E s k o m , t h e p o si t i o n t h a t
u h , w a s i n c o n t e st w h e n h e w a s d i s m i s s e d .
10

S o . . . s o I j u st w a n t t o p a i n t t h a t p i ct u r e b e ca u s e I
w a n t t o s e e w h e t h e r u h , u n d e r P R A S A , t h e re a r e cr u ci a l
things to go along the same lines or not.
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

W i t h r e g a r d t o P R A S A , C h a i rp e r s o n .

T h e . . . t h a t p o si t i o n h a s b e e n v a c a n t n o w f o r cl o s e . . . g o i n g
o n t o f i v e y e a r s.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Fi v e y e a r s.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Since Montana has left?

S i n c e M o n t a n a l e f t . N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

For how long?

F i ve y e a r s? !
Ye s, f i ve y e a r s.

T h e y. . . t h e y h a v e b e e n

a p p o i n t i n g a ct i n g p e o p l e . . . a ct i n g t h i s, a ct i n g t h a t .
y e a r s.

And

that

is

an

organisation

that

is

Fi v e

managing

R 1 7 3 b i l l i o n o f u h , ra i l a n d u h , i n f ra st ru ct u r e i n v e st m e n t .
U m , s o . . . s o . . . s o . . . b u t t h e d i ff e r e n ce b e t w e e n M r
Page 40 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
G a m a a n d M r M o n t a n a ’s ca s e i s t h a t i n t h e c a se o f M r G a m a
t h e y w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s. S o o n c e t h e y
h a d r e m o v e d t h e m i n i st e r [ l a u g h ] a n d a p p o i n t e d a n o t h e r
m i n i st e r,

they

could

si m p l y

lift

the...

or

w h a t e v e r,

s u s p e n si o n , b ri n g h i m b a c k.
I n t h e c a s e o f M r M o n t a n a , t h e y ca n n o t d o t h a t
w i t h o u t b u rn i n g t h e i r f i n g e r s b e c a u s e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s h a v e
gone so far and so much of the plot had been exposed and
t h e r e h a d a l r e a d y b e e n c a s e s i n t h e co u rt s o f l a w w h i c h
10

c o n f i r m e d t h e c o rr e ct n e s s o f t h e p o si t i o n s t a ke n b y t h e
b o a r d o f d i r e ct o r s .
S o yo u . . . y o u n e e d t o h a v e e xt ra o r d i n a r y co u r ag e t o
g o a g a i n st u h , t h e j u d g m e n t o f t h e co u rt a n d u h , a p p o i n t a
p e r s o n u h , w h o s e s m a rt i n a . . . i n a c o r r u p t i o n a n d t h e r e a re
st i l l o t h e r p e n d i n g c a s e s u h , ci vi l a n d o t h e r w i s e .
S o . . . s o . . . i t . . . i t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n d i ff i cu l t . U h , i t
w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ff i c u l t f o r t h e m t o b ri n g h i m b a c k n o w
after

the

work

we

had

done.

But

what

I

cannot

u n d e r st a n d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m?

...is why then not appoint a prober board?

I

m u st a l s o s a y, b y t h e w a y C h a i r p e r s o n , si n ce t h e d e p a rt u re
o f m y b o a rd , P R A S A h a s n o t h a d a p r o p e r. . . a p r o p e rl y
c o n st i t u t e d b o a r d .
I t h a d t h i n g s c a l l e d i n t e ri m b o a r d s w h i c h a r e n o t
Page 41 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
p r o vi d e d f o r i n t h e l a w. U h , i t h a d a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s . I t n o w
c u r r e n t l y h a s a n a d m i n i st r a t o r, y o u k n o w, n o b o a rd .
I kn o w t h a t t h e m i n i st e r h a s re c e n t l y a d v e rt i se d .

He

w i l l p r o b a b l y a p p o i n t t h e b o a rd u h , s o o n b u t . . b u t t h a t i s
what we are dealing with uh, in a country with high levels of
p o ve rt y, u n e m p l o y m e n t u h - u h , cr u s h i n g u h , t r a n s p o rt c o st s
and so on.
U h , s o so m e o f t h o se q u e st i o n s w o u l d h a v e t o b e
a s k e d l a t e r o n . To b e e x p l a i n e d b y t h o s e w h o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
. . . t o w h o m w e r e g i v e n t h e r e s p o n si b i l i t y t o

g o ve r n o u r c o u n t r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

We l l , u h , a s I . . . a s I u n d e r st a n d i t

e v e n u p t o n o w, i t s e e m s t h e r e i s n o t b e e n a G ro u p C E O
a p p o i n t e d . I s t h a t ri g h t ? S i n c e M o n t a n a l e f t ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct .

CHAIRPERSON:

And how many years would be... that

p o si t i o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR MOLEFE:
20

A p p r o xi m a t e l y f i v e y e a r s. We . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

MOLEFE:

A b o u t f i v e y e a r s.
We

asked

Mr

Montana

to

leave

in

J u l y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

2015.

...2015.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , s o t h a t i s. . . t h a t i s. . . t h a t i s. . . j a , t h a t
Page 42 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
i s a b o u t f i v e y e a r s. J a , t h a t i s f i v e y e a r s.
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t c a n n o t b e f o r a l a c k o f p r o p e rl y

qualified candidates?
MR MOLEFE:

N o , i t ca n n o t b e . I t c a n n o t b e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja?

A D V S O N I S C : [ t h r o a t cl e a r i n g ] M r M o l e f e , I d o n o t k n o w i f
y o u w e r e h e r e w h e n M r H o l e l e g a v e e vi d e n c e .

And... and

j u st t o c o m e b a c k t o t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o a p p o i n t
10

m i st e r u h , M r M o n t a n a a g a i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o rr y.

w o u l d l i k e s o m e w a t e r.

Uh, I think uh, the witness

Wa t e r sh o u l d h a v e b e e n p u t u h ,

placed uh, before him.
ADV SONI SC: Where is mine?
CHAIRPERSON:

U h , a ct u a l l y, w e a r e a t q u a rt e r p a st

e l e v e n . M a y b e w e s h o u l d t a k e a t e a - b r e a k.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a a n d t h e n , w h e n w e c o m e b a c k, j u st

m a k e s u r e t h e r e i s w a t e r f o r t h e . . . f o r t h e w i t n e s s.
20

I see

a l s o , I h a v e n o w a t e r h e re . S o t h e . . .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think maybe the people concerned

t h o u g h t w e d o n o t n e e d w a t e r i n w i n t e r.
A D V S O N I S C : [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s t o o c o l d . [ l a u g h s] .
Page 43 of 204

Uh, let... let us

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
a d j o u r n u h , f o r t h e t e a - b re a k.

I t i s q u a rt e r p a st e l e v e n .

We

w i l l r e s u m e a t h a l f -p a st e l e v e n . We a d j o u r n .
ADV SONI SC: As it please.
C O U R T O R D E R LY :

A l l ri s e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Uh, yes Mr Soni.

I... I asked that if

p o s si b l e , s o m e b o d y s h o u l d t r y a n d u h , m a k e su r e t h a t i t i s
w a rm e r h e r e .
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. [ l a u g h ]
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i t w a s q u i t e co l d .

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

U h , I h a ve a s k e d t h e m t o b ri n g m e a sm a l l

h e a t e r n e xt t o m e b u t u m . . . u h , I h a v e a s k e d t h a t i f t h e r e i s a
w a y o f m a ki n g i t w a rm i n t h e w h o l e ro o m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . t h e y s h o u l d t r y a n d d o t h a t . O k a y.

A D V S O N I S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r p e r so n .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

ADV SONI SC:

M r C h a i r p e r s o n , m a y I a s k o n e q u e st i o n

re l a t i o n t o t h a t i s s u e w h i c h u m , m a y a s si st y o u i n j o i n i n g t h e
d o t s?
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.
Mr Molefe, I do not know if you were here

w h e n Mr Ti ro H o l e l e g a v e e vi d e n c e .
Page 44 of 204

His evidence was in

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
a r o u n d F e b r u a r y/ M a r c h i n 2 0 1 7 w h e n t h e y r e f u s e d t o p a y a n
a c c o u n t f ro m P r o d i g y, w h i c h i s a c o m p a n y w h i ch M r R o y
M o o d l e y h a s a n i n t e r e st i n .
H e a s ke d t h e m t o p a y t h e a c c o u n t a n d w h e n t h e y
s a i d , “t a ke i t t o c o u rt ”, h i s a n s w e r w a s “ w e l l , t h e r e a r e b i g
c h a n g e s c o m i n g a n d t h a t y o u n g m a n i s c o m i n g b a c k.

Be

c a r e f u l y o u a r e n o t o n t h e w ro n g si d e o f h i st o r y”.
S o I a m j u st p u t t i n g i t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f y o u a r e s a yi n g
t h a t t h e y w a n t e d M r M o n t a n a b a c k.
10

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

ADV SONI SC:

U h , I . . . I a m p u t t i n g t h a t i n c o n t e xt t o s a y

y o u r t h e o r y m a y n o t b e a l l t h a t f a rf e t c h e d .
MR MOLEFE:

N o , i t i s. . . i t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r p e r s o n .

I did

i n d i c a t e t h a t a n d I sa i d i t i s a p i t y t h a t p e o p l e w o u l d n o t w a n t
to come and give evidence here.

T h a t I w a s a d vi s e d t h a t

t h e r e w a s a s t e l e c o n f e r e n ce w i t h e m p l o y e e s o f P R A S A a n d
t h e y w e r e e n c o u r a g e d b y t h e Mi n i st e r, M r R a d e b e t o . . . t o
continue the pressure. Keep up the pressure on the board.
Uh,
20

the

so-called

PRASA in

turmoil

was in

that

c o n t e xt . C r e a t e d t h a t t u rm o i l s o t h a t w e c a n j u st i f y r e m o v i n g
this board.
e x a ct l y t h a t .

Yo u s e e .

So.

It happened.

[ l a u g h s]

T h e . . . t h e . . . i t i s. . i t i s

G e t o u t o f t h e w a y, s o t h a t t h e

y o u n g m a n m a y c o m e b a c k.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e w a s a s p e ci f i c r e f e r e n ce u m , u h ,

i n t h e c o n t e xt o f P r o d i g y u h , t o s o m e b o d y s a yi n g , “t h e y o u n g
Page 45 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
m a n i s c o m i n g b a c k ”. I s t h a t ri g h t ?
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u . . . y o u w i l l r e c a l l M r C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t u h ,
M r H o l e l e a n d M r L e t s o a l o g a ve e vi d e n ce t h a t t h a t i s w h a t
M r M o o d l e y sa i d t o t h e m w h e n t h e y h a d r e f u s e d t o p a y b u t
t h e m a t t e r i s c o u rt .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h a t w a s t w e n t y. . .

A D V S O N I S C : 2 7 F e b ru a ry.
CHAIRPERSON:

Seven...

A D V S O N I S C : . . . Ma r c h 2 0 1 7 .
10

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s. O k a y, o k a y.
U m , i f I co u l d j u st p u t i t a l s o i n c o n t e xt ?

T h e y sa i d , “ c h a n g e s a r e co m i n g ” a n d t h re e w e e k s l a t e r,
t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e i n t h e m i n i s t r y a n d t h e Mi n i st e r u h ,
D i p u o P e t e r s w a s re m o v e d a s M i n i st e r o f Tr a n s p o rt .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h . O h , o ka y y e s. S o t h e r e i s. . . t h e r e i s

a . . . s o M r M o o d l e y s a i d , “ c h a n g e s w e re o n t h e w a y ”.
ADV SONI SC: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

“A n d y o u b e t t e r m a ke s u r e t h a t w h e n

t h o se c h a n g e s h a p p e n , y o u a r e o n t h e ri g h t si d e ”.
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

“A n d t h e y o u n g m a n i s co m i n g b a c k ”.

A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s. . . y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And uh, you said not long after that, the

m i n i st e r w a s u h , w a s d i sm i s s e d .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
Page 46 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d h o w l o n g a f t e r t h a t d i d y o u r

b o a r d g e t u h -u h , d i s m i s se d o r d i s p e n d e d ?
MR MOLEFE:

How long...?

CHAIRPERSON:

H o w l o n g a f t e r. . . a f t e r d i d . . . d i d t h e M r

M o l e f e ’s b o a r d g e t d i s p e n d e d ?
A D V S O N I S C : H ’ m . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Or that much longer ... much later on?

ADV SONI SC: On the 8th of March.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y. T h a t i s 2 0 1 7 ?

ADV SONI SC: 2017.
CHAIRPERSON:

And uh, this meeting that Mr Holele talked

about with Mr Moodley was when?
A D V S O N I S C : U h , F e b r u a r y/ M a r ch 2 0 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:
M o o d l e y,

So soon after Mr Holele had heard Mr

R o y M o o d l e y,

s a yi n g ,

“ c h a n g e s w e re

about to

h a p p e n ”, t h e m i n i st e r w a s f i r e d u h , o r b e f o r e t h e m i n i st e r
was fired, she fired the board and then she was fired.
A D V S O N I S C : S h e w a s. . . [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y. A l l r i g h t .

A D V S O N I S C : B u t . . . b u t . . . u h , u m , M r M o l e f e ’s e vi d e n ce i s
p a rt l y w i t h t h e c h a n g e i n t h a t e vi d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

O k a y, o k a y.

A l l ri g h t .

And of

course, Mr Molefe, you can confirm any of this insofar as you
m a y kn o w i t yo u r s e l f w h a t . . . w h a t . . . w h a t h a s b e e n a c h a n g e
o r t h e e x ch a n g e ?
Page 47 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

[ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]

CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , yo u ce rt a i n l y. . . yo u ce rt a i n l y u h ,

h a ve t o j u st t h a t t h e m i n i st e r d i s p e n d e d y o u . . . a n n o u n c e d
the

disbandment

of

your

board

in

p a rl i a m e n t .

Yo u r

re c o l l e ct i o n w o u l d b e t h a t w h a t . . . w h a t m o n t h o f 2 0 1 7 w a s
that?
MR MOLEFE:

That was on the 8th of uh, of March 2017.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

2017?

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

And um... and you recall uh, how

s o o n . . . h o w m u c h l a t e r a f t e r t h a t s h e w a s d i sm i s se d a s. . . o r
not really?
MR MOLEFE:

She was dismissed the same month.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

MOLEFE:

Th e s a m e m o n t h ?
The

same

month

that

was

she

was

d i s m i s se d .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , o k a y. O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
I s a y s o , b e c a u s e s h e w a s t o o w e a k.

She

c o u l d n o t re m o v e t h e b o a rd q u i c kl y e n o u g h .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S h e . . . s h e [ l a u g h s] J u st r e p e a t t h a t .

[ l a u g h s]
MR MOLEFE:

[ l a u g h s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

J u st r e p e a t t h a t .

[ l a u g h s] N o , I . . . I s a y C h a i rp e r s o n t h a t u h , I

t h i n k u h - u h . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
Page 48 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

She may have been perceived... she was

too late?
MR MOLEFE:

To h a v e b e e n p e r ce i ve d t o h a ve b e e n t o o

l a t e a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

...and too soft.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

J a , o n t h e b o a rd .

J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .

A D V S O N I S C : J u st o n e o t h e r i s s u e re l a t i n g t o M r M o o d l e y.
W h e n yo u g a v e y o u r e vi d e n ce o n t h e p r e vi o u s o c c a si o n , M r
Molefe.

Yo u s a y t h a t Mr M o o d l e y a n d M r M o n t a n a h a d m e t

or you had been told by the...
M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you Mr Soni.

I understand that

the heater will make it warm in due course, it might take a
little bit, for sometime in the whole room so that is good
news and I am hoping that the electricity people will make
20

sure that we don’t have these interruptions that we have
b e e n h a v i n g . O k a y l e t ’ s c o n t i n u e . Yo u r m i c ?
ADV SONI SC:
say

that

at

the

S o r r y, a g a i n f o r c o n t e x t M r M o l e f e m a y I
meeting

of

the

20th

of

August

you

understood that Mr Roy Moodley and Mr Montana had been
with the President before you and the Minister were called.
Page 49 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a c t u a l l y, y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t y o u

got a report that one of your projectors had seen them in
the premises.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Thank you.
So let us now get to the resolution of – oh

sorry before we do that, you say that Mr Letsoalo was
unhappy
10

about

the

Werksmans

Investigations…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I just want to make sure, I don’t lose

track of where we are. At some stage before the break you
had asked Mr Molefe to deal with the reasons of the
dismissals, disbandment of the Board and I highlighted to
him that, in doing so, he might wish to tell me what the
Minister

–

what

reasons

the

Minister

gave

and

what

reasons, he believes, are the true reasons if he is not in
a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e r e a s o n s g i v e n b y t h e M i n i s t e r.

So, you

m i g h t b e p l a y i n g t o i t l a t e r, I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e y o u
20

have not …[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:

I want to do it because in the application

that is brought the Judge deals with that, then.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o h o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:

So, if I could just ask – there was

unhappiness about the Werksmans investigation by the
Page 50 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Action CEO whom the Minister had installed, will that be
correct Mr Molefe?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct.

ADV SONI SC:

Then on the 12th of August you say that

Minister Peters herself, wrote to you to suggest that the
investigations be stopped.
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And that appears at Annexure PM7, your

affidavit at page 154.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

For the record, just repeat what file you

are still on Mr Soni.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s t h e l e t t e r f r o m M i n i s t e r D i p u o P e t e r s

is Annexure PM7 and it appears at page 154 of Bundle D,
Exhibit SS6.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

154, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:
20

ADV SONI SC:

What’s the page number again?

1-5-4?
Ye s .

That’s fine, I remember the letter very well.
Ye s , w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o r e a d t h e w h o l e – i f

you could explain to the Chairperson what the gist of the
letter is Mr Molefe?
MR MOLEFE:

The starting point of the Minister was to

express concern that the investigation is not ending sooner
and that it was costing a lot of money and she was saying
Page 51 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
that she thinks that we should be focusing on implementing
performance plans ensuring that our performance plans are
in order and we’re achieving results in that regard.

She

referred to the decline in performance and then she says,
stop

this

–

in

fact

she

uses

the

word

“close

it”…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

you

can

read

that

paragraph

because it is important, at the end of page 154,
“I therefore ask that you close off”,
10

It’s the last paragraph on page 154.
ADV SONI SC:

The previous page Mr Molefe.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

At the end.
Right at the end at the bottom of that

page.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

MR MOLEFE:

She’s asking that we close it off and

present a detailed report to her by – I think she said, by
the end of August.
ADV SONI SC:
20

Ye s , s h o u l d y o u n o t r e a d t h a t e n t i r e t h e

paragraph into the record?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

She says,

“I therefore ask that you close off this investigation
process and consider the results or report thereof.
Furthermore, the Board is requested to submit a
Page 52 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
detailed

report

indicating

the

outcome of the investigation.

progress

and

the

A determination of

any further investigation and a way forward will
subsequently be made after studying the report in
detail”.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I t h i n k t h a t – o h i f y o u f e e l t h e r e i s

something important…[intervenes].
MR MOLEFE:

Then she says,

“It will be highly appreciated if the report can reach
10

my office by end August 2016”.
ADV SONI SC:

Now…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

And just to confirm, you were reading

f r o m a l e t t e r f r o m t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a t t h e t i m e M s
Dipuo

Peters

addressed

to

you,

Dr

Popo

Molefe,

Chairperson of PRASA and it’s a letter that she signed on
the 12th of August 2016, ja, thank you.
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:
20

MR MOLEFE:

Is that correct?
That is correct Chairperson.
Yo u r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t l e t t e r ?
I did respond, Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And what is the date of your response?

MR MOLEFE:

The date of my response was the 24th of

August.
ADV SONI SC:

And is that the letter or is that Annexure

PM8 which is at 157 – page 157?
Page 53 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

Now in your report, if you could – I mean

in your response if you could summarise what you said to
t h e M i n i s t e r, M r M o l e f e ?
MR MOLEFE:
response,

The – in my response, the essence of my

Chairperson,

appreciated

the

to

concern

the

that

Minister

she

raised

was

that

we

but

that

the

c o n c e r n t h a t s h e r a i s e s , i n o u r v i e w, d i d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y
relate to whether the forensic investigation was necessary
10

or

not

and

I

went

on

to

say

–

and

if

I

may

read…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s y o u c a n r e a d .

M a y b e I s h o u l d r e a d i t p r o p e r l y, l e t m e r e a d

that paragraph, Chairperson.

The paragraph says, having

a c k n o w l e d g e d , o f c o u r s e , t h e l e t t e r o f t h e M i n i s t e r,
“I understand the concern raised, not to relate to
whether

or

not

the

forensic

investigation

is

n e c e s s a r y. T h e M i n i s t e r w i l l , i n d e e d , r e c a l l t h a t t h e
need for the forensic investigation was discussed
20

and agreed at a meeting between the Board and the
honourable Minister at the airport on 17 July 2015”.
N o w t h e a i r p o r t h e r e r e f e r s t o t h e O R Ta m b o
International Airport and I go on to say that,
“the concerns that I understand to be raised are
that

the

forensic

investigation

Page 54 of 204

is

endless

and

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
without any scope, constitutes excessive spending,
is

not

budgeted

for

irregular expenditure.

and

can

be

regarded

as

It is also indicated that the

Minister ’s own preference is for the Board to focus
on the annual performance.”,
That’s what the Minister is saying there, and then of
course, Chairperson it will be clearer on page 158, page
two of the letter that we go in detail to identify why it is
n e c e s s a r y, w e a r t i c u l a t e w h y i t i s n e c e s s a r y f o r u s t o
10

proceed with the forensic investigation.
section

1

of

the

Public

Finance

Section 50, sub-

Management Act

was

obliging the Board to exercise the duty of utmost care, to
ensure reasonable protection of the assets and records of
t h e p u b l i c e n t i t y. A c t w i t h f i d e l i t y, h o n e s t y, i n t e g r i t y a n d i n
the best interest of the public entity in managing the
f i n a n c i a l a f f a i r s o f t h e p u b l i c e n t i t y. O n r e q u e s t t o d i s c l o s e
to the Executive Authority and Minister responsible for that
public entity or the legislature to which the public entity is
accountable, all material facts including those reasonably
20

discoverable,

which,

in

any

way

may

influence

the

decisions or actions of the Executive Authority or that
legislature and the last one we make there is, to seek,
within the sphere of influence of the Accounting Authority
to prevent any prejudice to the financial interest of the
State.

Now this is what the law says we should do and
Page 55 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
that is what we are doing and we are doing it, Chairperson,
against the backdrop of a management that has stolen
r e c o r d s o f t h e c o m p a n y, c o v e r i n g u p , n o t c o - o p e r a t i n g w i t h
our investigation.
investigators to

Naturally it will take long for forensic
uncover things

because

you

do

mirror

i m a g i n g o f c o m p u t e r s , y o u ’ v e g o t t o g o t o t h e s e r v e r, y o u
d o t h i n g , t h a t o r d i n a r i l y, m a n a g e m e n t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
willing to give to the investigators so that we could do our
j o b q u i c k l y.
10

Now the Minister says, no you’re taking too

long stop. So, the view then, which we took, Chairperson
was that whilst we appreciate the concerns raised by the
Minister but we would not stop the investigation.
CHAIRPERSON:

But before you do that, I think, your

reference in your letter at page 158 to Section 51(1) is
also important, do you want to just read that part, A and B?
W h e r e y o u s a y,
“Section 51(1) provides for the following general
responsibilities of the Board”.
Do you want to just read that part?
20

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n , S e c t i o n 5 1 ( 1 ) p r o v i d e s f o r

the following general responsibilities of the Board and I’m
referring here to the Public Finance Management Act.
“Must take effective and appropriate steps to collect
all revenues due to the public entity concerned and
present irregular expenditure, fruitless and wasteful
Page 56 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
expenditure, loses resulting from criminal conduct
and expenditure not complying with the operational
policies of the public entity and manage available
working capital efficiently and economically”.
A n d t h e n I g o o n t o s a y,
“The above obligations, that is Section 50(1) and
general responsibilities Section 51(1) are precisely
what

necessitated

embarking

upon

forensic

investigations and the litigation that followed it”.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Then the – then you deal with each of the

concerns in paragraph 1 on page 159 you say that the
investigation, contrary to what the Minister says, was not
i r r e g u l a r, i s t h a t t h e e s s e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 ?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

When –

before we appointed the panel, the investigators, we asked
the Legal Department of PRASA to advise on the law firms
t h a t w e r e o n o u r p a n e l a n d t h o s e t h a t h a d t h e c a p a c i t y,
also for forensics and they referred us to Werksm ans.

Of

c o u r s e , i t w o u l d a p p e a r, o f c o u r s e , w h e n t h e y g a v e u s t h a t
20

information, they omitted to tell us that, in fact, they
should have established a new panel, the time for that old
panel

had

expired,

that

they

should

have

invited

professional companies and established a new panel but
that only became apparent when one read the Auditor
General’s report.
Page 57 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Then you deal with her concerns about the

s c o p e w i t h t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 y o u s a y, t h e
scope had been determined in the first sub-paragraph of
paragraph 2 by matters that had been identified by the
Auditor General and in the second sub-paragraph you say
t h e m a t t e r s r a i s e d b y t h e P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r, w o u l d t h a t b e
correct?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:
10

And then you make the point that it is the

Public Protector who had required that all contracts above
R10million should be investigated.
MR MOLEFE:
ADV

SONI

It is so Chairperson.

SC:

And

that,

in

the

pursuit

of

those

investigations the – PRASA had embarked on litigation,
you say that at paragraph 160 you say that…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
investigation

On the last page 160.
Ye s , t h e l i t i g a t i o n t h a t h a s f l o w e d f r o m t h e

requires

the

assistance

of

forensic

investigation team.
20

MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:

That is correct, yes Chairperson.
A n d y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t , i r o n i c a l l y, i t

is those very people who benefit from – benefitted from the
unlawful activities who are using those unlawful proceeds
to fight PRASA with.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n t h e p o i n t w e ’ r e m a k i n g
Page 58 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
was that we are being told, you’re taking too long, stop the
investigation

but

in

order

for

anybody

to

launch

an

e f f e c t i v e a p p l i c a t i o n i n a C o u r t o f L a w, w i t h t h e p o s s i b i l i t y
of achieving success, we need to have solid evidence and
we are saying the people we are litigating against, are
actually using the money of PRASA to fight PRASA and
that is the irony of the whole thing.

So if we stop the

investigation, they succeed, you know and – because these
m a t t e r s a r e b e e n s o p o l i t i c i s e d t h e y ’ l l s a y, a f t e r a l l , t h e y
10

never had a case, it’s just that they want to victimise me as
has been the charade of the – the narrative of Mr Montana
throughout.
ADV SONI SC:

And then you make the point that, right at

the end of page 160, that Siyagena had benefited to the
tune

of

R800million

and

that

it

had

also

sought

a

guarantee, on page 161, of R1.1billion.
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And at that stage had the Siyagena review

proceedings been instituted?
20

MR MOLEFE:

I do think so Chairperson…[intervenes].

ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:

[intervenes], year 2016.
Ja I think so.

CHAIRPERSON:

Well m aybe it’s important to highlight

the next sentence at page 160, the next sentence after the
sentence that deals with what you’ve just said Mr Molefe,
Page 59 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
n a m e l y, t h a t p e o p l e w h o h a d g a i n e d m o n e y f r o m P R A S A
unlawfully were using that money to fight PRASA in the
C o u r t s . Yo u t h e n s a y – t h i s i s a t p a g e 1 6 0 ,
“An

example

of

this

is

the

guarantee,

you

put

guarantee in quotes, that obliges PRASA to pay
almost

R800million

to

Siyagena.

As

we

have

p r e v i o u s l y a d v i s e d t h e M i n i s t e r, t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s
not

known

by

any

P RASA official.

We

are

still

awaiting the reply to the letter addressed to your
10

office in this regard.

Siyagena have now instituted

legal proceedings against PRASA claiming payment
of an amount of approximately R1.1billion related to
this very guarantee, in quotes”.
MR MOLEFE:

So the point we’re making, Chairperson,

there is that here is a – we go to Court, suddenly Siyagena
produces a document and they say you, PRASA, have
given

us

a

guarantee

of

R800million,

here’s

where

somebody signed and we had never seen that document
anywhere, Management of PRASA who might have been
20

there at the time were not helping to defend the interest of
t h e c o m p a n y.

So this is what we mean, where people use

your money to fight you and at this stage, if I recall well
Chairperson,

it was just after we had lost a case against

Siyagena on a technicality based on the purger rule, which
of course later on, following the Gijima Guma matter they
Page 60 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
changed.
CHAIRPERSON:

There was a change, ja thank you.

ADV SONI SC:

Mr Molefe Ms Ngoyi’s evidence is this is,

that

review

after

the

proceedings,

the

first

review

proceedings were instituted in 2016, in response Siyagena
brought an interdict requiring payment of this money and
that was the first time that it had been discovered that
there was such a contract, that addendum for R800million,
is that what you’re referring to?
10

MR MOLEFE:

That is what I’m referring to.

ADV SONI SC:

And that is a contract that was signed by

Mr Montana at the end of September 2014, is that your
recollection?
MR MOLEFE:

I don’t have the details of the contract for

now but he would have been the one signing as the GCE of
t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I know that – I have heard evidence, I

can’t remember whether from you or from Ms Martha Ngoyi,
I’ve heard evidence of a docum ent that PRASA officials
20

were

looking

couldn’t

find

f o r,

or

which

rather
had

were

been

looking

signed,

I

for

and

think,

they

by

Mr

Montana, apparently without any knowledge of any PRASA
official, do you know whether the docum ent you are talking
about which Siyagena produced when they took you to
Court

is

that

document

or

you

are

Page 61 of 204

not

sure

which

–

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
because you have said that PRASA officials seemed not to
know about that document until then?

Would you know

whether that’s the same document or you might not know?
MR MOLEFE:

That would have been the same document,

for me it rolls out of the investigations conducted by our
investigators.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja, thank you.
S o r r y, C h a i r p e r s o n , w h e n w e d e a l w i t h M s

– when we continue with Ms Ngoyi’s evidence we will
10

produce that document.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s p o k e a w a y f r o m t h e m i c , s o t h a t

won’t be reflected on the transcript, ja, just start again.
ADV SONI SC:

When we produce – when we lead Ms

Ngoyi’s further evidence that will be one of the documents
to which she will be referred.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
Chairperson earlier on I did say in my –

one of my interventions that, in one of the letters written to
t h e M i n i s t e r, I h a d r a i s e d c o n c e r n a b o u t h e r p e r s i s t e n t l y
20

telling the Board to perform yet the Board did not have the
Management team.

I see that I deal with that question in

this same reply to the Minister and it is at page 163 and it
is the last paragraph of …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O f t h a t l e t t e r.

O f t h a t l e t t e r.
Page 62 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Of that page 163, do you want to read

that paragraph into the record?
MR MOLEFE:

The paragraph reads as follows, and again

it’s the paragraph of the letter written by the Chairman of
the Board of Directors, myself at the time to Minister of
Tr a n s p o r t o n t h e 2 4 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 , i t s a y s ,
“The Minister indicated that, notwithstanding the
completion of an independent robust process, to
recruit a permanent group CEO, the Minister ’s view
10

was

that

PRASA

appointment.
Minister

was

not

ready

for

such

an

The reason we had consulted the

around

our

recommendation

for

the

position of the group CEO was that we felt that the
appointment of a permanent group CEO will assist
with

s t a b i l i t y.

We,

h o w e v e r,

deferred

to

the

Minister ’s preference to second the acting group
C E O f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w,

that

too,

for

the

sake

of

completeness – so you had made a recommendation to the
20

Minister of a candidate for appointment as group CEO and
what

you

are

saying

in

this

paragraph,

is

that

the

Minister ’s response was that PRASA was not ready for the
appointment of a group CEO.
MR MOLEFE:

She says so but she says so after waiting

for a very long time.
Page 63 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON: A very long time, yes, yes.
MR MOLEFE:

I hoped there could be other matters, where

I c o n s i s t e n t l y s a i d t o h e r, w e w r o t e t o y o u , w e g a v e y o u
recommendations, can we please appoint.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , s o i t ’ s s o u n d s a v e r y s t r a n g e
response to me, did she clarify why she thought PRASA
was not ready for a permanent group CEO, I would have
t h o u g h t t h a t a n y o r g a n i s a t i o n n e e d s a l e a d e r, a p e r m a n e n t
l e a d e r l i k e , y e s t e r d a y.
10

I don’t understand the idea of an

o r g a n i s a t i o n n o t b e i n g r e a d y f o r a p e r m a n e n t l e a d e r.
MR MOLEFE:
see

this

She didn’t explain but clearly as one would

happens

after

several

meetings

including

that

meeting with the President where an attempt was made to
bring Mr Montana back.

Of course one of the reasons that

they – they tried to use to justify that was contained in this
report to Mr Radebe of Mr Montana which we are looking for
which says that you know the Organisation for African Unity
had adopted a resolution that committed South Africa to
becoming a manufacturing hub for rail and rolling stock for
20

the African continent. And they say that you therefore need
a person with knowledge of this business like Mr Montana in
that thing.
CHAIRPERSON: So that seems to suggest…
MR MOLEFE:

So that he does not say it here but I am

saying it from my own…
Page 64 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON: Interactions.
MR MOLEFE: Interactions with them.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay thank you.
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Chairperson I just wonder if I can ask

the witness to confirm because it may be important Bongani
has managed to locate a document that may well be the
document that the witness was talking about.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh you want to show the witness the

document?
10

ADV SONI SC: I just want to show the witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja show the witness.
ADV SONI SC: Because then we can run out copies.
CHAIRPERSON: In the meantime ja.
MR MOLEFE: Then we can deal with it.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

T h i s i s t h e r e p o r t o f l e t t e r t o t h e M i n i s t e r.

Not the back one.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja they will bring it to you Mr Molefe.

They will bring it to you.
20

MR

MOLEFE:

00:02:41].

Ja

this

is

the

document.

So what do you want me to do?

[indistinct
Chairperson

this is the document…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y y o u r m i c r o p h o n e i s o ff .

Yo u

j u s t s w i t c h e d o ff .
MR MOLEFE:

Chairperson this is the document I was
Page 65 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
talking about.

A report on recent developments at PRASA

a n d i t i s – i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o M i n i s t e r J e ff R a d e b e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR

MOLEFE:

Who

at

that

time

was

responsible

for

m o n i t o r i n g a n d e v a l u a t i o n i n t h e p r e s i d e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y n o , a t l e a s t n o w w e k n o w
it is…
MR MOLEFE: I am just worried that we might lose it again.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , n o w e m u s t n o t l o s e i t .

I think what

Mr Soni has in mind is that once you have confirmed as you
have that it is the document they can immediately start
running – printing it and securing it to make sure that we do
not lose it and making sure they can give you a copy if you
n e e d a c o p y o r y o u m i g h t h a v e y o u r – a c o p y.

And then –

and then Mr Soni you can then see whether you would let
Mr Molefe deal with the document later or when?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
ADV SONI SC:
20

We thought once we have got the copies,

we will be able to…
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja because you might need to read it as

well.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

First ja.

But at least now that we have

got it I think that is very important. Ja.
Page 66 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC: It – oh it is a big find Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you, thank you.
ADV SONI SC: Ms Molefe is there anything else in your let
– oh and there is just one part of your letter that I want to
refer to and that is at 165 where after all those bullet points
i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t l e t t e r y o u s a y, t h e B o a r d d o e s n o t h a v e
any reason to stop the investigation at this point and is
satisfied that stopping the investigation will be harmful to
PRASA. That is the stance of the Board would I be correct?
10

MR MOLEFE:

I wanted to go ahead here to [indistinct

00:05:10].
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y, s o r r y p l e a s e d o I d o n o t w a n t t o …
MR MOLEFE:

Well of course Counsel can guide me but I

thought on paragraph 5 I do not know if Counsel would
allow me to.
CHAIRPERSON:

Remember to look this side.

Ye s a s y o u

d i d p r e v i o u s l y.
MR MOLEFE:

Chairperson I wonder if Counsel would not

like to read that?
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . I t i s a …
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that part you would like read in the

letter?
MR MOLEFE: There is a part I would like to read.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja please read it.
MR MOLEFE: The – it is paragraph 5 of the…
Page 67 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p a g e 1 6 4 .
MR MOLEFE: Page 164 and it…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s r e a d i t .
MR MOLEFE:

The caption is whether the investigation

should be stopped and a detailed report be submitted to the
M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: And it goes onto say:
“As we indicated to the Minister at the meeting of 17 July
10

2015 and as clearly indicated from the above excerpts of
the PFMA we believe that the Board has the responsibility
to institute and to continue for the forensic investigations in
its capacity as the accounting authority of PRASA.

We are

s a t i s f i e d t h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n i s n e c e s s a r y, i s n o t i r r e g u l a r,
is

cost

e ff e c t i v e

and

assist

with

easing

some

of

the

operational bottle necks created by the past blatant failure
t o o b s e r v e t h e l a w. ”
I do not know Chairperson if I should stop there and…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja if that was the important part that is

fine but if there is another important part you can indicate.
MR MOLEFE: And then…
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Our

Counsel

will

indicate

if

there

is

another part he wants you to look at.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

The – and you are quite right Mr
Page 68 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Molefe that is an important point but the point I wanted to
make is that when you say the Board does not have a
reason what you are saying to the Minister is in terms of
Section 50 and 51 of the PFMA.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

The Board must act according to its own

conscience and its own belief and its own understanding
about its responsibilities and cannot take instructions from
e v e n t h e M i n i s t e r.
10

That – would I be encapsulating that

problem?
MR MOLEFE:

To t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e i n s t r u c t i o n s a r e i n

conflict with the law the Board is not obliged to take those
instructions Chairperson.
ADV

SONI

SC:

And

you

have

mentioned

that

point

[indistinct 00:08:10].
MR MOLEFE:

Other point we are making and that is why I

went back to that paragraph again because it restates that.
And that is why probably the public should understand
because sometimes people say but what is wrong with this
20

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e d i s o b e y i n g t h e f u l l [ i n d i s t i n c t

00:08:35].
M R M O L E F E : Yo u a r e d i s o b e y i n g t h e l e a d e r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

It is the President, it is the Minister why do
Page 69 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
you not just keep quiet and do as they tell you?

But in the

end, I think I have my own responsibility and my own
integrity also to – to protect.

I might not be holding a high

position in society but I have also been heavily done I know
the values and principles that have inspired me, guided me
and why I am involved in what I am involved in and – and
why it is necessary therefore not to equates in anything that
violates those values and principles.
ADV SONI SC:
10

And one of the values that the constitution

i m p o s e s o n a l l r e p o s i t o r i e s o f p o w e r.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

Is that they must exercise power in an

a c c o u n t a b l e m a n n e r.

That is exactly what you were saying

t o t h e M i n i s t e r.
MR MOLEFE: That – that is correct.
ADV SONI SC:

And then you say right at the end of that

paragraph – at the – sorry perhaps you should read the next
paragraph because this goes to the state of knowledge of
the Minister where you say we have endeavoured.
20

If you

could read that into the record Mr Molefe.
MR MOLEFE:

Am I sure?

Okay Chairperson thanks and

that is page 165.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

Just above the three bullet points at the

bottom there.
Page 70 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
“ We h a v e e n d e a v o u r e d t o k e e p y o u a b r e a s t o f t h e p r o g r e s s
of the investigations.
others.

This has been done through amongst

A meeting with you in Rivonia focussing on the

preliminary irregularities found in the Swifambo contract.
This meeting was held on 28 August 2015.

A meeting at

Werksman Attorneys during November after the launch of
the Review Application in respect of Swifambo contract.
The last written report was on the 7 July 2016.”
And of course we – we go further to say:
10

“It is regrettable that on 1 July 2016 I requested a meeting
with the Board for you to address it on a number of issues
including this investigation.

H o w e v e r, t o d a t e w e h a v e n o t

yet received a response.”
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

And then I go on, on page 166 Chairperson

the paragraph – first paragraph on that page and now
speaking on behalf of the Board and I go onto say:
“It is my considered view that it will be sad day for the
Department as a shareholder and for the citizens of South
20

Africa

if

this

investigation

does

not

reach

its

logical

conclusion.

I t r u s t t h a t t h i s c l a r i f i e s t h e B o a r d ’s s t a n c e i n

this regard.

We shall in correspondence to follow by the

end of August provide you with a detailed report on the
forensic investigations undertaken by Werksmans Attorneys
or on the Board’s instructions.”
Page 71 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Now what – sorry you wanted to say

something.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: I –
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry I did not hear you Mr Soni just

raise your voice.
ADV SONI SC: Sorry I was going to ask a question but I – I
understood that the witness want – no, no please Mr Molefe
you…
10

MR MOLEFE: No, no let me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e d r i n k – y o u m a y d r i n k w a t e r s o
that we can proceed so there is no problems because
advisably adjourn each time.
MR MOLEFE:

No Chairperson we – the – that report was

given to the Minister and the Chairperson should by now be
a w a r e w e h a v e r e g u l a r l y r e p o r t i n g t o t h e M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
Minister
20

On a range of sensitive issues.

obviously

accounts

to

the

President

And the
and

the

Cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

I expect that you would have been reporting

to the Cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

MOLEFE:

As

well.

So

it

Page 72 of 204

then

means

that

the

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
government would have become aware.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

MOLEFE:

Of

the

seriousness

of

the

levels

of

corruption.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MR MOLEFE: That were taking place.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

In an organisation that is expected to spend

R173 billion over 20 years.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

We l l I – i n k e e p i n g w i t h w h a t y o u

said and what you have just said I think it is important to
l o o k a t t h e l a s t p a r t o f p a g e 1 6 5 o f y o u r l e t t e r.

Yo u s a y

there:
“It is regrettable”
W r i t i n g t o t h e M i n i s t e r.
“That on 1 July 2016 I requested a meeting with the Board
for you to address it on a number of issues including the
i n v e s t i g a t i o n s . H o w e v e r, t o d a t e w e h a v e n o t y e t r e c e i v e d a
response.”
20

So I guess it shows that some of the occasions where you
w e r e e v e n a ff o r d i n g t h e M i n i s t e r t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o a d d r e s s
the Board on various issues but there were delays in getting
a response.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
Page 73 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Now the matter that you referred to the

investigation was this Swifambo investigation, would that be
correct?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC:
Court

of

Now that is the one where the Supreme

Appeal

and

the

High

Court

said

there

was

corruption and the Constitutional Court refused to grant
Leave to Appeal against the judgment of the Supreme Court
of Appeal?
10

MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

Then – well not soon thereafter this was in

the August 24 the next milestone that happened is the
Minister dissolves the Board.
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u s a y t h a t s h e d i s s o l v e s t h e B o a r d o n t h e
8 March.

Now when she dissolved the Board did she give

any reasons?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Maybe just before you answer Mr Molefe

just to make sure we get everything in proper sequence.

I

think you said earlier on the Board was dissolved by the
Minister on the 8 March 2017, is that correct?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

And did the dissolution take place by way

of the Minister making an announcement in Parliament?
Page 74 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

That is so Chairperson.

The Minister went

[indistinct 00:16:32].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

And sent the acting Director General in the

D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

MOLEFE:

To

reach

to

Parliament

the

Portfolio

C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t a l e t t e r – t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t t h a t
the Board has been dissolved.
10

Of course, on the same day

letters were sent to each one of us as Directors.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
to Parliament.
same

day

I

I was not well on that day so I could not go
I h a d j u s t h a d a n e y e s u r g e r y.
wrote

several

letters

to

the

But on the
Speaker

of

Parliament.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : To t h e C h a i r o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
20

Dealing with what I felt was not the correct

way of managing exercising oversight on the affairs of
PRASA but also asking the Speaker of Parliament to initiate
a n e n q u i r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : O n Tr a n s p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Now so…
Page 75 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE: Oh behalf of PRASA
CHAIRPERSON:

So it is not the Minister who made the

announcement in Parliament it is the DG?
MR MOLEFE: It was the acting DG.
CHAIRPERSON: But reading a letter from the Minister?
M R M O L E F E : F r o m t h e M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

And the DG was reading that letter to the

D e p a r t – t o t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o f Tr a n s p o r t ?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Now before the – this letter was read in –

in – before the Portfolio Committee had you already been
alerted by the Minister that the Board – your Board was
going to be dissolved?
MR MOLEFE: Not at all Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: Not at all.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o – a n d d i d y o u g e t t o k n o w
about it for the first time when maybe the media report
heard about what was happening in the Portfolio Committee
20

b e f o r e y o u g o t t h e o ff i c i a l l e t t e r f r o m t h e M i n i s t e r o r d i d y o u
get the Minister – the letter – Minister ’s letter first then you
heard that it had – the letter had been read in Parliament?
MR MOLEFE:

I was called Chairperson by one of our

directors who was a delegate at the Portfolio Committee
meeting.
Page 76 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: And he calls me he says:

Yo u a r e n o l o n g e r

my Chairman, you are not Chairman any board because you
h a v e g o t n o b o a r d n o w. Yo u a r e – y o u h a v e b e e n f i r e d . H e
explains to me what happened in Parliament and then of
course when I checked my email box I found that a letter
had

been

sent

to

me

advising

me

that

I

have

been

dismissed.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

That seems a very strange way of – of –

one would have thought that the Board would be informed
first or at least to be alerted.

So – so unless the letter had

been sent first to try and achieve that but because you
might not have been alerted that there was a letter – an
important letter – urgent letter that you should – were –
e x p e c t i n y o u r e m a i l s t h e n y o u o n l y g o t t o s e e i t l a t e r.
MR MOLEFE:

My recollection Chairperson is that the date

on the letter is the 8 March as well.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a m e d a y.
MR MOLEFE: But besides – besides Chairperson.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

There is a separation of powers between the

legislator and the executive.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

The executive is not obliged to go and

dismiss the Board in – in a Portfolio Committee meeting.
Page 77 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

The Minister should meet with the Board of

Directors.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

It is casa concerns.

Well the Minister

appoints and dismisses directors so if she does it properly
follows process we would not even have gone to court.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
10

But the precisely because we too could not

understand why she chose to act in a manner in which she
did.

We thought it was improper for us to allow abuse of

p o w e r, a b u s e o f a u t h o r i t y i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h i t w a s
done.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

I know that previously I asked you a

question and I think you gave me an answer as to whether
t h i s p a r t i c u l a r M i n i s t e r, M i n i s t e r o f D i p u o P e t e r s w h e t h e r i f
you look at her approach or attitude towards the Board
when the Board started and later in the life of the Board
whether her attitude towards the Board might have changed.
20

And I think if I recall correctly that – the impression I got
was

that

you

thought

her

attitudes

towards

the

Board

changed at a later stage. Is that right?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: And my view is that it all centres around the
Page 78 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
investigation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MOLEFE:

And the fact that the Board is perceived to

be stubborn.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

When it is told do not do this, do not

investigate, it says no, no we will investigate because…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R M O L E F E : We h a v e f i d u c i a r y d u t i e s t o b e d i s c h a r g e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

So everything centres around this – you

know this investigation. We [indistinct 00:22:28].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: That were beginning to emerge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: From that investigation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Molefe again just expanding on the

theme raised by the Chairperson the Minister and – well
20

through the DG, acting DG announces the dismissal of the
Board on the occasion at which the Board was appearing
before the Portfolio Committee.
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

Now as I understand it you did not go to

that meeting but the rest of the Board members went?
Page 79 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

Well a significant number of directors we

normally feel that you do not have to take the entire board
to a Portfolio Committee and expand its money in hotels
and

air

tickets

reasonable

unnecessarily

number

with

so

normally

executives

we

–

take

a

executive

management to go particularly the Group CEO, the Chief
F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r a n d t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y.
ADV SONI SC: And that is quite an expensive…
MR MOLEFE: That is – that is…
10

A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y.
MR MOLEFE: That is what…
ADV SONI SC:

But that is quite an expensive business to

t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e f r o m P r e t o r i a i n C a p e To w n .
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

Now if the Minister was dismissing the

Board and had reflected on this one would imagine that she
would have done it before the Portfolio Committee actually
met because that would have saved that expense
MR MOLEFE:
20

Portfolio

That would have been the case or after the

Committee

has

met

and

after

the

Board

had

discharged its duties to the Portfolio Committee because
that will report had to account.

It did not matter if after a

week or so she decided now you have done your job go.
But then she does it in the manner in which she did then
which

means

actually

this

is

fruitless

Page 80 of 204

and

wasteful

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
expenditure.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I do not know whether Mr Soni was

going to ask this question but I want to ask this question.
Yo u h a v e h a d t i m e t o r e f l e c t o n t h e e v e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d
t h r o u g h o u t y o u r – t h e t e r m o f o ff i c e o f y o u r B o a r d a t
PRASA.

Are you able to say whether on your analysis of

the events there was – that the dismissal of your Board
happened on the day on which the Board was appearing
before the Portfolio Committee was a mere coincidence or
10

is

there

some

significance

in

the

convergence

of

the

Board’s appearance before the Committee and the dismissal
and I see you said the date the letters were signed on the
8 t h o n t h e s a m e d a y. I s t h e r e a c e r t a i n s i g n i f i c a n c e i n t h e s e
two things happening on the same day or the dismissal
happening on the day when the Board is appearing before
the Committee?

Or was it a coincidence or is it a matter

you have not had time to reflect or you would prefer not to –
to leave it to other people to analyse this?
MR MOLEFE:
20

C h a i r p e r s o n t h e d i ff i c u l t y o n e h a s i s t h a t

there appears to be a group of people some of the Ministers
including the President and members of Parliament who was
in

May

go

to

conferences

and

adopt

resolutions

on

c o r r u p t i o n b u t t h e y d o n o t m e a n w h a t – w h a t t h e y s a y. T h e y
do not mean to fight this. So the – everything pivots around
the investigation, the fight against corruption. So it is a – it
Page 81 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
is an all-round mobilisation of various vast instruments at
the

disposal

of

those

who

do

not

want

to

confront

corruption. And they were found – that Portfolio Committee
maybe if Counsel might later take us to the letter I wrote to
the Chair of the Portfolio Committee.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

That Portfolio Committee itself says we do

not want this Board, dissolve it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR MOLEFE:

Now it is not their duty to say to a Minister

dissolve the Board.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e M i n i s t e r h a s g o t t h e e x e c u t i v e a u t h o r i t y.

She must decide.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:
purpose or not.

Whether you know the Board is serving its
But they saying all of those things.

They

are not saying to the Minister we want you to account.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR MOLEFE:

For staying for such a long time without a

G r o u p C E O f o r s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

Company and somebody was reminding me

by the way that it was not only the CEO, the Group CEO.
The company also did not have a Group Chief Financial
Page 82 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
O ff i c e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

It has to put in place financial controls.

It

must ensure that it manages the finances of the business
a l l o c a t e d t o i t b y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y t o P a r l i a m e n t p r o p e r l y
b u t t h e r e i s n o C h i e f F i n a n c i a l O ff i c e r.
should

be

Committee

that

saying it.

It is worried about why are you keeping the

Chairperson of the Board?
10

demanding

The Oversight

this

thing

is

not

Why are you keeping this

Board? Why do you not get them out?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

So – so the – the – I think the Minister

reached a point where she had to pander to this thing to the
demands of the Portfolio Committee.

Secondly the meeting

w e h a d w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d M i n i s t e r J e ff R a d e b e w a s
sending a clear message that we do not want this Board.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

We do not want this Board.

We do not want

this Chairman.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: So it must go.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE:

So I had said earlier on in my evidence

Chairperson that there was something that I have also
found

strange

whilst

professional
Page 83 of 204

organisations

could

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
investigate all kinds of things vetted through their normal
regulatory bodies and so on.
In the case of this investigation there was a demand
that National State Security Agency should vet the people
who were investigating at PRASA.

That investigation had

begun to shake the tree so much that there was a lot of
discomfort in many quarters which sometimes make you
wonder whether many of these people were not aware of
the wrongs that were happening at PRASA and whether
10

they

themselves

were

not

beneficiaries

of

what

was

h a p p e n i n g t h e r e i n o n e w a y o r t h e o t h e r.
So I think the dismissal of the board was planned,
was being discussed elsewhere and it was staged in such a
way that it must give maximum publicity and embarrass the
directors.

I would have expected the Minister to call at

least me, as the Chair of the board, to say do not be
surprised, I have considered this and that about your board
and I have arrived at a conclusion that we should dissolve
it.
20

I w o u l d p r o b a b l y h a v e s a i d j a , b u t M i n i s t e r, l e t u s a t
least arrange for you to meet with the board so that you
can explain to us and maybe then tell us to go at that
meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:
anything

that

the

Is there – to your knowledge was there
Minister

or

anyone

Page 84 of 204

else

might

have

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
expected that the board would say before the Portfolio
Committee that the Minister or somebody else might not
have wanted the board to get the chance to say because
the moment you are dismissed I take it that the Portfolio
Committee might say you have no – once you are no longer
a board we do not – we have no business asking you any
questions so you stop this appearance before the Portfolio
Committee the moment you announce that the board is
dismissed.
10

Do you know whether there was anything that

the board may have been expected to say that somebody
might not have wanted to board to say before the Portfolio
Committee or you would not be sure?
MR MOLEFE:

The purpose for the board appearing before

the Portfolio Committee is to account for its work of the
p r e c e d i n g y e a r.

Now naturally given what we had been

busy with, the board was going to have to talk about
r a m p a n t c o r r u p t i o n , t h e l i t i g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e u n d e r w a y.
They would have had to talk about the police refusing to do
their job, many reports that we had given to them, civil
20

actions taken and so on.
They would not have loved that to happen and one
of the things that would probably had featured there would
have been what appears in the Swifambo matter where
monies were paid to individuals who came to say look, you
a r e g o i n g t o g e t t h i s b i g c o n t r a c t , y o u k n o w, y o u h a v e g o t
Page 85 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
t o s h a r e t h a t m o n e y w i t h s o m e b o d y, y o u k n o w ?
So all of those things may well have been things
that made people restless at the time.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

I do not know how everyone

feels, it does not feel – it feels like the aircon is – the
heater is taking too long to make us warm.

I do not know

but maybe when we come back after lunch it will be fine.

I

think you wanted to ask question before we adjourn.
ADV SONI SC:
10

I want to just raise a – Chairperson, you

have raised something that I have not thought about and I
had not asked the witness to think about but perhaps we
could raise it because the witness has mentioned two
letters

that

Parliament

he
and

had
the

Portfolio Committee.

written,
other

to

one
the

to

the

Speaker

Chairperson

of

of
the

Certainly the letter to the Speaker of

Parliament is dated the same day as they are dismissed
and it may be after the witness has looked at it, he can
reflect again as to whether there is a connection between
the timing of the dismissal and the issues you have raised.
20

I t h a s o n l y o c c u r r e d t o m e n o w, C h a i r p e r s o n , b u t i f t h e r e i s
something that I submit needs to be considered.
CHAIRPERSON:

It does need to be looked at because it

i s q u i t e e x t r a o r d i n a r y.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Indeed.
That the Minister who I assume would
Page 86 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
have known in advance that the board would be appearing
before the Portfolio Committee on a certain date does not
dismiss the board before that but actually dismisses the
board on the day or when they are supposed to appear and
I would imagine that if she dismissed the board before the
date she would have achieved the same thing if part of her
concern was that the board was going to reveal certain
things.
ADV SONI SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Indeed.
But it may well be that coinciding the

dismissal with the date of the board’s appearance before
the Commissioner – before the Portfolio Committee, might
have been based on some other reason.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And I think Mr Molefe has mentioned

that also it might have been intended to embarrass the
board and to get a lot of publicity for that.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

C l e a r p u b l i c i t y.
Ja, so after lunch we can wrap that up.
Ye s .
O k a y, I s e e i t i s t w o m i n u t e s p a s t o n e .

Let us take the lunch adjournment and we will resume at
two o’clock.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u p l e a s e , C h a i r.
We adjourn.
Page 87 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

And the way it is cold here

in Jo’burg, it makes some of us who come from Durban
w a n t t o g o b a c k t o D u r b a n . O k a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e .
ADV SONI SC:

M r C h a i r, m a y I p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t w e

have now retrieved that document and I would like Mr
Motlana to hand it up. I mean, Mr Molefe, to hand it up.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , i s t h a t t h e r e p o r t w h i c h w e h a v e

b e e n c a l l i n g t h e Tu r m o i l a t P R A S A ?
ADV SONI SC:

P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l .

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, it may be that it is convenient to

call it that even if that is not the heading that appears
because we – as long as there is mention of that in the
body of this document.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

But if you have seen the report, I have

not – there is another word that we can use to call it, that
is
20

fine,

so

I

am

just

saying

that

because

Mr

Molefe

emphasised earlier that he had noticed that it is not what it
is called. So that somehow one may end up …[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O n e o f t h e h e a d i n g s i s P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l .
H’m?
One of the headings in the report is

PRASA Internal.
Page 88 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Somewhere in the report, you mean not

at the top?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

One of the headings.
Not at the beginning.
Ye s .
Ja, I think it is convenient to call it that.
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

We will know what document we are

t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n a n y b o d y r e f e r s t o t h e P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l
10

report or document.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
O k a y, a l r i g h t .
So, Chairperson, just for the order we

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I think, Mr Soni, you have confused

both me and Mr Molefe about what you wanted – about the
reports.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h , s o r r y.
Yo u s a i d y o u w a n t h i m t o h a n d i t u p b u t I

suppose you wanted him to identity it but I think you left
that in between.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

So, I was …[intervenes]
O k a y, I c a n t a k e i t f r o m M r M o l e f e .

S o r r y, l e t m e t a k e i t f r o m M r M o l e f e .
s o r r y.
Page 89 of 204

Mr Molefe, I am

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, give it to me.

Ye s , s o t h a t i s t h e

d o c u m e n t c a l l e d – o r r a t h e r, w r i t t e n a t t h e t o p :
“Report

on

recent

developments

at

PRASA.”
ADV SONI SC:

T h a t i s s o , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, y o u w a n t t o – h a v e y o u g o t – I a m

sure, Mr Molefe, you have got your own copy?
MR MOLEFE:
10

I do have, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, d o y o u w a n t M r S o n i t o l e t

him identify it so that we can admit it?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

We could call it as you suggest,

C h a i r p e r s o n , P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l a n d w e c o u l d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, we do not have to write down on

p a g e 1 a t t h e t o p P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l , w e c a n l e a v e i t a s i t
is.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .
What I meant was, anybody who says

t h e P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l r e p o r t , a s l o n g a s w e k n o w w h i c h
20

document it is.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
That would be fine.
And we could include it at the end of

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you want Mr Molefe to identify it
Page 90 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
first?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, do you want me to take him through

it – not through it but to identify it first?
ADV SONI SC:

He can identify it first, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SONI SC:

Mr Molefe, you have been referring to a

document produced by Mr Montana.
MR MOLEFE:
10

That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And you referred to it in general terms as

a d o c u m e n t c a l l e d P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l .
MR MOLEFE:

That is so.

ADV SONI SC:

Is this the document?

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , t h i s i s t h e d o c u m e n t , C h a i r p e r s o n ,

which is written:
“Report

on

recent

developments

at

PRASA.”
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ye s a n d t h e n t h e l a s t p a g e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
Made at 27 July in the last page and it also

s t a t e s t h a t t h e r e p o r t c o m p i l e d b y Ts h e p o L u c k y M o n t a n a .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d i t h a s g o t 11 p a g e s , r i g h t ?

ADV SONI SC:

Right at the end you will see it at the

bottom.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , i t i s p a g e s 1 t o 11 s o i t i s a n 11 p a g e
Page 91 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
report.
MR MOLEFE:

O h , 11 p a g e r e p o r t , y e s , C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

What do you propose we mark

it as exhibit what, Mr Soni?
ADV SONI SC:

Let me just find…

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w a n t i t t o b e i n s e r t e d ?

We could

have it separate. We could have it separate.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Because unless we add it at the back

of…
ADV SONI SC:

It may be a good idea, Chairperson, to

have it as a separate document.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

As a separate document.
Ye s b e c a u s e I h a v e n o d o u b t i t w i l l c o m e

up again.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

O k a y, t h e n w e n e e d t o k n o w

what exhibit it will be.
ADV SONI SC:

Shall we make this EXHIBIT SS6A?

CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV SONI SC:

Exhibit?
SS6 - Mr Molefe’s affidavit is SS6 and we

can make this 6A.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well,

should

we

not

make

it

SS7

because when you say...
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

There is already a 7, as I understand it.
Ja, is there another one because when
Page 92 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
you say 6A it will give the impression that it comes before
6.
ADV SONI SC:

Yes. I will just check.

CHAIRPERSON:
admitted?

What

is

the

last

exhibit

we

have

Even March, there may be other documents that

we admitted or otherwise we could use SS6A, as you say.
ADV

SONI

SC:

Can

I

make

the

suggestion,

Mr

Chairperson, can we have it as 6A provisionally and then
when we have worked out what is the last SS number we
10

could then convert it to the number after that.
CHAIRPERSON:

My difficulty is that we will refer it with –

we will use and then later we change.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, yes.
Well, this bundle D

consists of

Mr

Molefe’s affidavit and annexures thereto, is it not?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes. Yes, it does, Chairperson.
Should we not – and there is no other

bundle that has got annexures to his affidavit, it is only
this one.
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
Then should we not put it at the back so

that it becomes simply an annexure?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
Well, it is not an annexure because the

affidavit – well, the affidavit does, I think, refer to it
Page 93 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
although because it was not available it was not annexed.
ADV SONI SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

But I think we can put it at the end and

we – it will become in terms of pagination as a PSM331.
ADV SONI SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

So I think let us do – what was the

document before that?
that?

Was it PM11?

What was the document before

PM12?

PM15?

Ja, it looks like the

last document is PM15.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

So if we – let us make it PM and

annexure even though – because it is referred to in the
affidavit, is it not?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
It is just not given an annexure number.
No.
So I think let us make it annexure PM16.
Yes.
Would that be alright?
Yes, yes.
So let us mark it PM16 and then in terms

of the pagination it will be PSM333 and I write SS6 before
PSM.

Okay, alright.

So if you refer to it as PM16 or

PRASA in Turmoil we will know which one you are talking
about.
Page 94 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Talking about, yes.
Okay, alright. Thank you.

PRASA IN TURMOIL DOCUMENT HANDED IN AS PM16
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Can we refer to this a little later?
Yes, later.
I will lead Mr Molefe on it a little later.
Ja.
Now, Mr Molefe, we were still dealing with

the dismissal by the Minister of the board on the 8 March.
10

When the Minister announced her decision, what was your
reaction

to

it?

I

am

relation to her decision.

talking

about

active

reaction

in

But perhaps let me ask more

directly. Did you challenge the decision?
MR MOLEFE:

I did, Chairperson, I called the rest of the

directors and suggested that we challenge the decision.

I

did also say, of course, regardless of whether they joined
me in doing so or not, I was going to challenge it, so – and
that is what we did, we instructed Webber Wentzel firm of
attorneys to be our attorneys-of-record.
20

ADV SONI SC:

Yes.

You then took the decision to quote

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry, Mr Soni, it is more logical for

us to deal with the reasons, if any, that were given by the
minister for dismissing the board and

what

Mr Molefe

thought of those reasons before we go to challenging, is it
Page 95 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
not?
MR MOLEFE:

There should be a letter of the minister,

very scanty.
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry, yes, I did not hear, just

repeat, Mr Molefe?
MR MOLEFE:

I said there is a letter that simply dismisses

us.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Yes, I was …[intervenes]
Recollection is that it does not even give

much reasons to say performance or something to that
effect.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.

No, that is what I would like Mr

Soni to traverse first. We must – because you have told us
that the – you have told us that the acting DG read the
letter of dismissal to the Portfolio Committee.

So we do

need to see – to identify the letter, if it is here.

If it is not

here then I must be told it is not here because maybe from
it we will see the reasons.

Or if the reasons are not there,

Mr Molefe can indicate whether at some stage or another
20

prior to the challenge in court of the decision the Minister
did give her reasons or was asked to give reasons and
what was her response.

I think it is more natural if we

cover that first.
MR MOLEFE:

That is an issue that is covered in the

judgment, that is why I wanted to go to the judgment.
Page 96 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Let us deal with it now even if it is in the

judgment because when one is listening to the story the
first thing when one is told that the Minister dismissed the
board, the next thing you want to know is why.
MR MOLEFE:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

So it is better to hear it now even if the

reason the court deals with them later on.
MR MOLEFE:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

So, in other words, what I want to

know, do we have the letter that was read to parliament
where the Minister communicated the – or that was written
to the board, to members of the board saying you are being
dismissed and these are the reasons, if they were given,
and then the reaction to those reasons, I would like to
know what he thought of those reasons.

Probably did not

think much of them, that is why they decided to go to court.
MR MOLEFE:

To court, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

But that is the – I am looking at getting

the story in a logical way.
20

MR MOLEFE:

No, I understand. As it unfolded.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, ja. The court later on – we can say

what did the court say about those reasons, but that is
later.
ADV SONI SC:

I place on record, Chairperson, that the

DG’s letter is something we have only heard about this
Page 97 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
morning for the first time.
that

the

Minister

had

I had thought until this morning
announced

it

at

the

Portfolio

Committee but that letter is not part of the documents
before you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

and

–

so

even

in

the

court

proceedings that ensued it was not part of those…?
ADV SONI SC:

No.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
10

It was not part of this.
No.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Mr Molefe, have you found that

letter by any chance? I think you are looking for it.
MR MOLEFE:

The letter would be really addressed to

e a c h o n e o f t h e d i r e c t o r s b y t h e M i n i s t e r.

It would not be

the one read in parliament.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , o k a y.

It was not there.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h e o n e r e a d i n p a r l i a m e n t w o u l d

have been addressed to the Portfolio Committee?
MR MOLEFE:
20

Would have been addressed to the Portfolio

Committee advising them that …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Of the dismissal.

That the board is being dissolved.

CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

But even if you do not find –

if you can find the letter that was addressed to you, we can
deal with it.

If you do not find it you can just tell me what
Page 98 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n i s o f w h a t r e a s o n s i t g a v e , i f i t g a v e a n y.
MR MOLEFE:

I will do, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , o k a y.
Well, did she give any reasons at the time

she dismissed you, Mr Molefe?
MR MOLEFE:

I w o u l d r a t h e r w a i t t o s e e t h e l e t t e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h e l e t t e r.
My recollection is that the reasons were

really not substantive.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

They simply said poor performance.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Oh, did …[intervenes]

That is why in court it was dismissed as an

irrational decision.
CHAIRPERSON:

What you can do, Mr Soni, of course, is

to look at the reasons as were understood in court.
ADV SONI SC:

They are quite revealing, Chairperson,

t h a t i s w h y I t h i n k M r M o l e f e c a n n o t g i v e a n a n s w e r.

I will

refer you to a paragraph of the judgment.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.
Which addresses this very issue.
Ja.

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

Let us proceed.

If

the letter is not there, let us proceed and then we will see
how the court deals with it.

It is just that it is – when you

say somebody has been dismissed in circumstances that
Page 99 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
appear to be strange the first thing you want to know is,
why was the person dismissed, what was the reaction,
b e f o r e y o u h e a r w h a t h a p p e n e d i n c o u r t l a t e r.
ADV SONI SC:

But what happens in

court

actually

explains in a sense the fact that no reasons were given.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

Let us go ahead.

If we find

the letter later on we can come back to it but that is fine,
let us go ahead.
ADV SONI SC:
10

O k a y.

So, Mr Molefe, may I ask you to

look at bundle A and it is the judgment of the court in the
matter …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:

Chairperson, it is bundle A.
Is it this one?

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

You say it is bundle A?

Well, I do not have – oh, there it is.

Yes, I do have it.

CHAIRPERSON:

What

page?

That

is

bundle

A

of

EXHIBIT SS1.
ADV SONI SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

That is right, yes. SS2, Chairperson.
And what is the page?
Page 83, that is where the judgments are.

The report starts page 83 and you will see, Chairperson, it
has Mr Molefe and the other board members against the
Minister of Transport and members of a newly appointed
board.
Page 100 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one second?
At page 83, Chairperson.
You said page 83?
Yes.
I think the people who were paginating

here departed from the norm.

You know, these bundles,

the numbers, the pagination is supposed to be sequential
from page 1 up to the last page.
ADV SONI SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
But I see that the first document goes up

to page 59. The next document starts from scratch.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.,
On page 1, it starts the pagination

afresh. It should not be like that. Okay, page 83?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Of SS2.
So that is now – ja, will you just make

sure that these things are checked beforehand because the
numbering, the pagination, there must be consistency with
everything.
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
Because when I see page 59, I think

okay, I am only 20 pages away from 83 only to find that
when I think I have reached the twentieth page it is not 83
and I still a long way because the pagination has started
afresh. Yes, okay, I have got the judgment.
Page 101 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Now, Mr Molefe, can I ask you in respect

of that judgment, could you turn to page 124, paragraph
51?
MR MOLEFE:

I am on 124, paragraph 51, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Did you say paragraph 81?
51, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

10

Five one?
Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay, yes.

ADV SONI SC:

Now in the earlier paragraphs the judge

deals with the

duty to

give

reasons for administrative

action and then at paragraph 51 he sets out what reasons
were given. Could you read that into the record please?
MR

MOLEFE:

Paragraph

51,

Chairperson

reads

as

follows:
“For the first time the Minister purported at press
conference

that

she

held

on

13

March

2017

to

justify her decision to remove the relevant directors,
she did that through the media instead of through
20

the concerned directors.

She stated that the board

was found wanting relating to, amongst others, the
declining performance, lack of good governance,
lack of financial prudence and ever deteriorating
public confidence due to spats of infighting.”
ADV SONI SC:

Okay, if you could just stop there.
Page 102 of 204

Was

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
that

the

first

time

you

heard

the

justification

for

the

dismissal of the board on the 13th?
MR MOLEFE:

That was the first time.

ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:

Yes, so …[intervenes]
That was the first time, Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

So you were dismissed on the 8th but the

first time you were given a reason so to speak was on the
13th?
MR MOLEFE:
10

The media, the media, the public were

given a reason.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
Yes, yes.

Yes, no, that is an important

factor to remind that she was talking to the media.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And not talking to...
And not to the board and to yourselves.

Yes, okay.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

As emphasised by the judge.
By the judge.
By the judge, Chairperson.
Yes.
And then in the next – then the judge says

what she had said in her answering affidavit.

Could you

read that into the record?
MR MOLEFE:
“In

her

answering

affidavit

Page 103 of 204

she

set

out

two

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
fundamental reasons for her decision.

Firstly, she

claims that the trigger for the relevant directors’
removal was their decision to terminate Letsoalo’s
secondment to PRASA.

She states that the board

was removed because the board acted in unison in
frustrating the actions of Mr Letsoalo and ultimately
removing him. Furthermore...”
And I am on now page 125, Chairperson.
“Furthermore, she claimed that she substantially
10

complied with the procedural fairness, obligations in
respect of this complaint because she wrote to the
board on 1 March 2017 and asked it to explain its
public spat with Letsoalo and to furnish reasons
why she should not intervene in order to restore
good

governance

Minister

within

claimed

that

PRASA.
she

had

Secondly,

the

wide-ranging

concerns about the board management of PRASA.
She

considered

it

to

have

been

involved

in

corruption and in irregular expenditure since its
20

appointment. Quite clearly, nowhere does she state
that

she

afforded

the

relevant

directors

an

opportunity to be heard on these issues before she
took the decision to remove them from office.”
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Chair, Mr Molefe, can I ask you to turn

to paragraph 56?
Page 104 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

Does anybody feel like it is warmer than

before lunch?
ADV SONI SC:

It is slightly warmer.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

It is slightly warmer, okay. Mr Molefe?

It is slightly warmer, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Okay, alright.
So this, Mr Molefe, is after the judge

decides that she was setting aside her decision and this is
the third reason he gives. Can you place that on record:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Paragraph 56 of the judgment, Chairperson,

reads:
“Thirdly
remove

and
the

unreasonable

lastly,

the

Minister’s

concerned
and

directors

disproportionate

decision

to

was

so

as

to

be

arbitrary and irrational.

The board took a decision

to

after

terminate

Letsoala

obtained legal advice.

it

had

sought

and

The decision to terminate to

terminate Letsoalo’s appointment was thus plainly
reasonable given the fact that it had a discretion to
20

terminate his appointment at will.

The Minister

should have accepted that the board’s decision to
terminate his secondment rather than disciplining it
for it.

Her decision was accordingly unreasonable

on that basis alone.

The decision, however, is

rendered wholly disproportionate by the fact that
Page 105 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
the Minister appears to have given no consideration
to

the

serious

wholesale

and

removal

prejudicial
of

the

impact

board

on

of

the

PRASA’s

interest.”
ADV SONI SC:

Okay, you can stop there.

you to look at paragraph 60?

Can I then ask

If you could just read the

first sentence?
MR

MOLEFE:

Paragraph

60,

Chairperson,

the

first

sentence reads as follows.
10

“I have reached a conclusion that the applicants, or
should I say the removed directors, have proved
that

they

have

a

clear

right

to

challenge

the

decision taken by the Minister and furthermore, to
have the decision reviewed and set aside or to
obtain an order suspending the operation of the
notices of removal. The removed directors…”
Okay, that is the sentence, Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

Yes.

And then if you look at page 135,

paragraph 3, the court sets aside the decision to remove
20

the members of the board and in paragraph 6 orders the
Minister to pay the costs, is that correct?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

So

whatever

reasons

the

Minister

furnished to the court for the decision to remove your
board were found to be wanting by the court.
Page 106 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

That is so, Chairperson.

So maybe we will

still get to know the real reasons from their side.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes. Yes.

ADV SONI SC:

Now after the – after you took the

decision to court but before the deci sion of the court, the
c h a n g e a n d t h e y h a ve a l r e a d y d i s c u s s e d i t , w h e r e M i n i st e r
P e t e r s w a s re m o v e d a s M i n i st e r o f Tra n s p o rt a n d Mr J o e
M a s w a n g a n yi w a s a p p o i n t e d m i n i st e r. I s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
MR MOLEFE:
10

T h a t i s s o , C h a i r p e r so n . Th a t . . . b y t h e w a y, I

s h o u l d a l so s a y t h a t i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r s h e a n n o u n c e d t h e
re m o v a l o f o u r b o a r d , s h e a p p o i n t e d w h a t s h e c a l l e d a n
i n t e ri m b o a r d .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR MOLEFE:

J a . A n d u h , o f c o u r s e , s h o rt l y a f t e r t h a t t h e

p r e si d e n t

re s h u ff l e d

uh,

the

cabinet

and

she

was

uh,

re p l a c e d b y Mi n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi .
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, w h a t h a s M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi ’s u h ,

a p p r o a c h t o w a r d s t h e b o a r d ? T h e . . . u h , M i n i st e r P e t e r s h a d
d i s m i s se d t h e b o a r d .
20

his

approach

to

your

Yo u h a d b e e n re i n st a t e d .
r e i n st a t e m e n t

and

your

What was
continued

e xi st e n c e a s a b o a r d ?
MR MOLEFE:

U h , i m m e d i a t e l y w h e n M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi

a n d m e w a s a p p o i n t e d , I w r o t e h i m a l e t t e r co n g r a t u l a t i n g
h i m a n d w e l co m i n g h i m a n d sa y i n g t h a t u h , t h e b o a r d w o u l d
uh, wish that he... he comes and meet with the board.
Page 107 of 204

Uh,

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
a n d o f c o u r s e , I a l s o a d vi s e d h i m t h a t u h , t h e . . . t h e c o u rt
h a d r e i n st a t e d u s. U m , h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

In the meantime, while you are waiting for

t h e o u t co m e o f t h e c o u rt a p p l i ca t i o n , t h e r e w a s a n i n t e ri m
board

that

was

um,

uh,

in

operation

or

they

waited

b e ca u s e . . . f o r t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e a p p l i c a t i o n w i t h o u t p u t t i n g
i n p l a ce a n i n t e ri m b o a rd ?
MR MOLEFE:

N o , t h e i n t e ri m b o a rd h a d b e e n p u t i n p l a c e .

U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

B u t i t . . . i t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s. O k a y.

I t h a d t o g o o n c e y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

I t h a d t o g o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . w h i l e . . . w h i l e y o u w a i t i n g o n t h e c a se ,

ja.
MR

MOLEFE:

It

probably

had

one

or

two

m e e t i n g s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ye s.

...and let it go.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I c a n . . . d i d M r M a s w a n g a n yi

re s p o n d p o si t i v e l y t o yo u r r e q u e st f o r r e si g n a t i o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

M r M a s w a n g a n yi d i d n o t r e sp o n d p o s i t i v e l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

He did not respond at all or he did

re s p o n d b u t . . .
MR MOLEFE:

H e . . . h e d i d n o t r e s p o n d t o m y l e t t e r.
Page 108 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
U m , a n d I t h i n k I h a v e g o t co r re s p o n d e n c e

uh, in that...
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

. . . i n t h a t r e g a r d w h i c h w e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

. . . I c a n a v a i l t o t h e c o u rt .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ye s.

Ye s.
U h , h e sh o w e d m e a f t e r t h a t , a l s o s e r v e d

n o t i ce o n u s.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
A s m a l l d e t a i l a n d g i v e n r e a so n s, d e t a i l e d

re a s o n s w h y w e s h o u l d b e u h . . . h e . . . h e d e m a n d e d t h a t . . . h e
g a ve u s s e v e n d a y s.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
Uh, to show cause why we should not be

re m o v e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ye s.

. . . a s a b o a rd f o r. . . f o r f a i l u r e t o p e rf o r m .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.
H e h a s. . . h e h a s n o t e v e n m e t w i t h t h i s

board but he wanted to dismiss it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

T h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e y o u a r e t a l ki n g

a b o u t , i f w e d o n o t h a v e i t h e re , i t w i l l b e i m p o rt a n t t o h a v e
it.
Page 109 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

I t . . . i t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:

Between yourself and ...[intervenes]

A D V S O N I S C : I w a s j u st g o i n g t o t h a t C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V S O N I S C : I t i s h e r e n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , i t i s h e re ? O h , o k a y.

[ I n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 3 : 3 9 ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

A D V S O N I S C : M r M o l e f e , ca n I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a g e 1 7 6
w h i c h i s A n n e x u r e P M 1 0 t o y o u r a ff i d a vi t ?
MR MOLEFE:

[ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m so r ry.

A re w e g o i n g b a c k t o t h e

o t h e r b u n d l e 3 o r a r e w e st a yi n g w i t h t h i s o n e ?
A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. We a re g o i n g t o b u n d l e . . .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

U h , yo u j u st a n n o u n c e i f d o n e . so

t h a t u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

...whoever

re a d s

the

t r a n s c ri p t

will

u n d e r st a n d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : A n d h o w. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
bundle

or

T h e n n o w w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h a d i ff e r e n t

exhibit.

O ka y,

what

page?

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV SONI SC: On page 170, Chairperson.
Page 110 of 204

We

a re

now

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

We a r e g o i n g b a c k t o B u n d l e D w h i ch

i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : P a g e 2 5 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]

A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h e n A n n e x u re P M 1 0 i s p a g e 1 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

[No audible reply]

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, p a g e 1 7 0 . Ye s.

A D V S O N I S C : S o t h i s i s t h e m i n i s t e r ’s l e t t e r t o t h e b o a r d i n
10

w h i c h h e g i ve s n o t i c e t h a t h e i n t e n d s d i sm i s si n g t h e b o a r d
a n d a s k s y o u t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s w h y yo u s h o u l d n o t .
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i r. . . C h a i r p e r s o n .

ADV SONI SC:

N o w, i n f a ct , w e a r e j u st l o o ki n g f o r w a r d .

The... he did not go uh, ahead with his threat to... to
t e r m i n a t e t h e . . . t h e b o a r d o r. . . o r t h e cl e a n i n g o f t h e b o a r d .
MR

MOLEFE:

He

did

not

J u st

in

go

ahead

with

the

treat

would

you

Chairperson.
ADV

SONI

SC:

b ri e f

then,

s a y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o rr y m i st e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, C h a i r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

...Soni.

to

letter

see...

of

the

I w a s t r yi n g t o l o o k f o r t h e d a t e

to

see

how

a p p o i n t e d , h e s e n t t h i s l e t t e r.
ADV SONI SC: Oh.
Page 111 of 204

soon

after

he

was

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

B u t I s e e n o d a t e h a s p r o vi d e d w h e r e h e

si g n e d a n d I d o n o t se e a n y d a t e o n p a g e 1 o f t h e l e t t e r.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u a r e q u i t e ri g h t . [ l a u g h ]
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

A D V S O N I S C : I m u st h a v e m i s s e d . . . I d i d n o t se e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s y o u r r e c o l l e ct i o n M r M o l e f e a s t o

h o w s o o n a f t e r h e h a d a p p o i n t e d , h e s e n t t h e b o a rd t h i s
letter uh, PM10?
MR MOLEFE:
10

[ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]

CHAIRPERSON:

Or is that something you are not able to

re m e m b e r ?
ADV SONI SC:

I f y o u l o o k a t p a ra g r a p h 9 9 o f y o u r a ff i d a vi t

u h , M r M o l e f e a t p a g e 2 5 , y o u w i l l s e e yo u g i v e a d a t e t h e r e .
MR MOLEFE:

Page...?

A D V S O N I S C : P a g e 2 5 o f yo u r a ff i d a vi t , p a r a g r a p h 9 9 .
MR MOLEFE:

Ja, let me see.

A D V S O N I S C : N o , yo u r a ff i d a vi t h e r e u h , M r M o l e f e .
MR MOLEFE:

I a m l o o ki n g a t m y. . .

ADV SONI SC: Oh.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Uh, page 25.

ADV SONI SC: Page 25, paragraph 99.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

give...

you

g a ve

the

5 June 2017.
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

I n p a r a g r a p h 9 9 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 112 of 204

date

of

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

Ja, ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . a s a d a t e w h e n M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi

asked

to

the

board

sh o w

c o u rt

why

it

should

not

be

dissolved.
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e n t h a t . . . t h a t . . . t h a t i s ri g h t t h e r e .

Yo u c o n f i r m t h a t t h a t i s t h e d a t e ?
MR MOLEFE:

10

That... that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

And you then responded through PM10

w h i c h a p p e a r s a t . . . a h , s o rr y.

T h r o u g h P M 11 w h i c h a p p e a r s

at page 179.
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n .

ADV SONI SC:

And in essence, again because that much

h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h i s, y o u a s k e d f o r m o r e t i m e s o t h a t
y o u co u l d g i v e a m o r e c o n s i d e r e d r e s p o n s e t o h i s i n v i t a t i o n ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n .

ADV SONI SC:
terminate
20

the

N o w, h e d i d n o t g o a h e a d w i t h t h e t h r e a t t o
c h a i rm a n

of

the

board

but

you

said

a c h i e ve d t h e sa m e r e s u l t t h r o u g h a d i ff e re n t m e a n s .

he

What

d o yo u m e a n b y t h a t ?
MR MOLEFE:

H e . . . w e a s ke d f o r t i m e e xt e n s i o n a n d h e

g a ve u s o n l y d a y b e c a u s e h e s a i d [ l a u g h s] . . . h i s i n i t i al
t i m e l i n e w a s a y e a r. T h e 2 1 s t u h -u h , o f J u n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.
Page 113 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

A n d h e s a i d , “ o k a y, I g i ve y o u u n t i l t h e 2 2 n d ”.

CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

MR MOLEFE:

U h - u h , s o t h e . . . a n d I a m s a yi n g h e i s

a c h i e vi n g t h e u h , s e e ki n g t o a c h i e v e t h e s a m e o b j e ct i v e , t h e
s a m e g o a l o f u h , t h e p re v i o u s u h , m i n i st e r t h r o u g h u h , a
d i ff e r e n t u h , m e a n s. A n d . . . a n d h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

What did he do?

Uh...

CHAIRPERSON:
10

H e a c h i e ve d t h e s a m e r e s u l t t h r o u g h

d i ff e r e n t m e a n s.
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

What does he do?
S o . . . s o w h a t h e d i d w a s. . . b y t h e w a y, I

s h o u l d s a y t h a t , w h e n I w r o t e t o t h e m i n i st e r, I a l s o a d v i se d
h i m t h a t t h e r e w e re v a ca n ci e s o n t h e b o a r d .
did not have a quorum.

That the board

A n d h e n e e d e d t o s p e e d i l y a pp o i n t

u h , d i r e ct o r s t o t h o s e va c a n ci e s.
Even if he was not to follow the tedious process of
n o m i n a t i o n s, t h e r e w e r e t w o d i re ct o r s w h o w e r e w o r ki n g f o r
20

g o ve r n m e n t .

O n e w a s i n h i s d e p a rt m e n t .

The other one

w o u l d h a v e c o m e f ro m t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u ry.
A v a c a n c y t h e r e a r o s e b e c a u se t h a t i n d i vi d u a l w h o
was

a

nominee

of

National

Tr e a su r y

r e si g n e d

as

an

e m p l o y e e o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a su r y a n d t h a t c o u l d n o t c o n t i n u e
a s a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e b o a r d .
Page 114 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
S o I w a s a s ki n g h i m t o f i l l u h , t h o s e p o st s.
so he did not.

U h , h e re f u s e d t o d o s o .

And uh,

S o a ch i e v e d t h e

d y sf u n ct i o n a l i t y o f t h e b o a r d b y si m p l y n o t d i s c h a r g i n g h i s
re s p o n si b i l i t y a s a m i n i st e r t o a p p o i n t a b o a r d s o t h a t t h e
b o a r d c o u l d f u n ct i o n p r o p e rl y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So uh... ja.

We re t h e r e t w o va c a n ci e s o r

w e re t h e r e m o r e t h a n t w o v a c a n ci e s ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h e r e . . . t h e r e w e r e f o u r v a c a n ci e s.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Th e r e w e r e f o u r v a c a n c i e s ?

U h , f o u r.

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t yo u k n o w t o c r e a t e a q u o r u m y o u

needed two... up two appointments?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u . . . y o u a r e s a yi n g t h a t t h o s e t w o

a p p o i n t m e n t s c o u l d b e s o m e b o d y o f h i s d e p a rt m e n t a n d
s o m e b o d y f r o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct .

CHAIRPERSON:

And then the board would be able to

f u n ct i o n p ro p e rl y ?
20

MR MOLEFE:

That is true.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

He... he does not do it.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

J a , o k a y. A n d . . . b u t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

He did not do it.

U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:

Did he respond in any way?
Page 115 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:
m a n n e r.

H e . . . h e d i d r e s p o n d i n a v e r y i rr a t i o n a l

H e s a y s , “n o , i t t a k e s a l o n g t i m e t o . . . t o a p p o i n t

d i re ct o r s”. H e h a s g o t t o f o l l o w t h e p r o ce s s o f n o m i n a t i o n a s
re q u i r e d b y t h e l a w.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m?
A n d t h e n h e sa y s, “ w i t h r e g a rd s t o t h e s e

n o m i n e e s o f t h e d e p a rt m e n t , e v e n i f t h e y co m e f r o m t h o s e
d e p a rt m e n t s, I m u st st i l l t a ke t h e m t o t h e c a b i n e t ”.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

[ l a u g h s] F o r t h e ca b i n e t t o . . . t o d e ci d e .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m?

H’m.

N o w, t h e . . . t h e c a b i n e t i s u n l i k e . . . i t i s t o s a y

t o t h e M i n i st e r o f Fi n a n c e . . . w h e n t h e M i n i st e r o f F i n a n c e
s a y s, “ m y n o m i n e e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

. . . ”t o t h a t b o a r d i s t h i s p e r s o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

. . . ” w h o m I t r u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
20

H’m.

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
. . . ” w o r k s f o r t h i s d e p a rt m e n t ”.

They would

n o t s a y, “ n o , n o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

. . . n o , w e c a n n o t . We c h a l l e n g e y o u ”.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

H’m.

H e , a s a re s u l t o f w h a t . . . w h a t h e i s, h e d o e s
Page 116 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
n o t . . . h e . . . h e c a n n o t i f y t h e c a b i n e t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
board

and

H’m.
...that I have nominated so and so on that

then

we

have

got

this

nominee

of

National

Tr e a s u ry.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
N o t t o sa y t o t h e c a b i n e t “d e ci d e f o r m e

w h e t h e r I ca n n o m i n a t e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

. . . ”m y e m p l o y e e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

. . . ” w h o i n t e r m s o f t h e l a w, I a m p r e p a r e d t o

n o m i n a t e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

. . . ”a n d a p p o i n t a s a d i re ct o r t o t h a t b o a r d ”.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

H’m. H’m.

B u t . . . b u t h e w a s s a yi n g t h a t . S o cl e a rl y t h e

intention was not bad.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

But of course uh, if he... I mean, once the

b o a r d d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h d i r e ct o r s o r m e m b e r s t o b e
quorate, that was an item matter on its own.

The filling of

t h o se p o si t i o n s w a s u r g e n t b e c a u s e i t m e a n t t h e b o a r d c o u l d
not sit, is it not?
MR MOLEFE:

I t w a s a n u r g e n t m a t t e r.

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 117 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

T h e q u e st i o n i s w h e t h e r t h e re w a s t h e

i n t e n t i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s. S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

. . . t o h a v e a f u n ct i o n i n g b o a r d .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o . . . s o . . . so o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e ct e d

t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e a p p r e ci a t e d t h e u r g e n c y a n d w o u l d . . . a n d
w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t t h e c a b i n e t i t se l f w o u l d r e g a r d t h e
m a t t e r a s u r g e n t i f h e s a y s, “t h e b o a rd o f P R A S A ca n n o t
operate because it does not have enough members of the
10

board.

I n e e d a t l e a st a p p o i n t e d .

Here is my nominee.

H e re i s t h e n o m i n e e o f t h e Mi n i st e r o f Fi n a n c e ”.
T h e r e i s n o r e a s o n w h y t h e . . . t h e c a b i n e t p e rf o rm i n g
i t s d u t i e s t h e w a y i t s h o u l d , w o u l d n o t h a ve r e g a r d e d t h a t a s
u r g e n t n o w.
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H ’ m . O k a y.

Ye s.

ADV SONI SC:

M s M o l e f e , t h e re y o u m a k e a sl i g h t l y

d i ff e r e n t p o i n t t h a t i n t h e s e c o n d se n t e n c e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 0 ,
20

y o u sa y,
“I l a t e r f o u n d o u t t h a t t h e d i r e ct o r s w e r e l o b b i e d t o
re s i g n e d

from

their

re s p e ct i v e

b o a r d ”.
W h o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

S o rr y, w h a t p a g e ?
Page 118 of 204

p o si t i o n s

on

the

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y, C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Page?

ADV SONI SC: Page 25.
CHAIRPERSON:

25.

ADV SONI SC: Paragraph a hundred.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u .

A D V S O N I S C : A re y o u t h e r e M r M o l e f e ?
MR MOLEFE:
ADV
10

SONI

On what page are we on?

SC:

Page

25,

paragraph

100,

the

second

sentence.
MR MOLEFE:

O h , t h e a ff i d a vi t ?

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y. U m . . .

CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k h e s h o u l d r e a d p a ra g r a p h 1 0 0 i n

i t s e n t i r e c o n t e xt .
A D V S O N I S C : S o t h a t i t i s o n r e c o rd . O k a y, C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y e s. R e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h M r M o l e f e .

CHAIRPERSON:

“When

e v e r yt h i n g

else

failed,

he

a t t e m p t e d t o w e a k e n t h e b o a r d b y e n s u ri n g t h a t i t d i d n o t
20

h a ve a q u o r u m ”
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t i s t h e re f e r e n c e t o t h e M i n i st e r

M a s w a n g a n yi . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR MOLEFE:

A n d t h a t i s t h e p o i n t I m a d e e a rl i e r o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

That...

that...

the

M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi ?
Page 119 of 204

E

i s r e f e r e n ce

to

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s Mi n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s, c o n t i n u e .
“I l a t e r f o u n d o u t t h a t t h e d i r e ct o r s w e re

l o b b i e d t o r e si g n f r o m t h e i r r e s p e ct i ve p o si t i o n s o n t h e
board. The intention being to isolate me as the chairman so
t h a t I c o u l d n o t b e e ff e ct i ve ”.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

“ S o m e d i r e ct o r s i n cl u d i n g t h e r e p re s e n t a t i v e

o f t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a su r y d i d r e si g n ”.
10

And I have given the

ci r c u m st a n c e s u n d e r w h i c h t h a t o n e r e si g n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
the

“They were not replaced.

D e p a rt m e n t

m e e t i n g s.

H’m.

of

Tr a n sp o rt

st o p p e d

The nominee of
attending

board

T h e s e d e v e l o p m e n t s l e f t t h e b o a r d i n e ff e ct i v e a s

i t s q u o r u m c o u l d n o t b e f o r m e d ”.
N o w, t h e . . . I . . . I w a s a d vi s e d b y s o m e o f m y d i re ct o r s
u m , t h a t t h e y w e r e a ct u a l l y a p p r o a c h e d a n d a s ke d t o re si g n .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

[ l a u g h s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

L o o k t h i s si d e a g a i n .

MOLEFE:

[ l a u g h s] L o o k a t m e . [ l a u g h s]
Ja,

I

am

learning

the

hard

way

how

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 6 : 5 9 ] [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

[ l a u g h s]

R e f r a i n i n g t o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 7 : 0 2 ]

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

O k a y, y o u w e r e a d vi s e d b y s o m e

Page 120 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
o f . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
MR MOLEFE:

M y. . . b y m y d i r e ct o r s.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

T h e y w e r e l o b b i e d t o r e si g n .

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t . . . t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n a p p ro a c h e d

a n d a s k e d t o r e si g n .
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

U h , i n f a ct , o n e o f t h e m t o l d m e t h a t

t h e a ct i n g d i r e ct o r g e n e r a l . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
. . . p r o m i s e d h e r t h a t “i f y o u re si g n , w e w i l l

a p p o i n t yo u t o a n o t h e r b o a rd .

D o n o t w o rr y ”.

F o r n o w, y o u

know?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

He would not... he will appoint you again.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.
Um, of course uh, the chair of the Audit

C o m m i t t e e r e si g n e d a n d t h e c h a i r o f u h , t h e H u m a n C a p i t a l
C o m m i t t e e u h , a l s o r e si g n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
U m , so i t w a s q u i t e cl e a r t h a t t h a t w a s a

d r i ve t o u h , t o m a k e t h i s b o a rd d y sf u n ct i o n a l .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

H’m.

MOLEFE:

Because

of

the

d o i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.
Page 121 of 204

big

job

that

it

was

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

. . . w h i c h o t h e r p e o p l e c a n n o t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct

00:18:04]
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

Uh, are you able to tell... give us

t h e n a m e s o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o r e si g n e d a r o u n d t h a t
time?
MR MOLEFE:

U h , i t w a s u h , Z o d o M a n w a zi ( ? ) [ 0 0 : 1 8 : 1 5 ]

who was the chair of the Audit and Risk Committee.

Um,

and Mr Pitsane, Bernard Pitsane.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.
Ja.

U h . . . w e l l , t h e r e . . . t h e re h a v e b e e n

a n o t h e r d i r e ct o r, b y t h e w a y.

I s h o u l d h a v e sa i d t h i s.

Who

h a d re s i g n e d m u c h e a rl i e r b u t i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h . . .
w i t h t h i s u h - u h . . . u m , s h e i s a n a t t o rn e y b y t r a d e .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Uh, Ms Kesho. Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

20

H’m.

F r o m K w a zu l u N a t a l .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

Ja. Um, from KZN.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

H’m.

S o u h , t h a t w a s t h e p o si t i o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e . . . w e re t h e r e t w o w h o r e si g n e d

ro u n d a b o u t t h i s t i m e w h e n yo u s a y i t l o o k e d l i k e t h e r e w a s
a n a t t e m p t t o re n d e r t h e b o a r d d y sf u n ct i o n a l ?
MR MOLEFE:

C o r r e ct s o .
Page 122 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

And it is two that you have told me about?

Ye s.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

Ye s.

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e re w a s o n e , I t h i n k o n e o f t h e m . . .

d i d y o u s a y o n e o f t h e m t o l d y o u t h a t e x p l i ci t l y t h a t h e h a d
b e e n a p p r o a c h e d o r s h e h a d b e e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR MOLEFE:

She. She.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

She.

B u t sh e r e f u s e d t o re s i g n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h , b u t t h a t o n e re f u s e d t o r e si g n ?

T h a t o n e re f u s e d t o re s i g n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y, o k a y.
Ja.

T h e o t h e r t w o r e si g n e d b u t o f c o u r s e ,

t h e y a l l s a i d , “n o , w e a r e n o t l o b b i e d . I t i s o k a y ”.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

Ye s. U m , s o u m , b e c a u se . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

Ja.
. . . p a rt o f t h e d i ff i c u l t y u h , C h a i r p e r so n w e

h a ve . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

MR MOLEFE:

...is that uh, there are people who are

e x p e ri e n c e t h i n g s b u t w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e c o u r a g e t o c o m e
and talk here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.
Page 123 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s t h e p ro b l e m .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s, y e s.

With that.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s, i t i s a se ri o u s p r o b l e m .

Ja, it is a serious problem because a person

w o u l d s a y, “t h i s c o l l e a g u e o f m i n e r e si g n e d a n d h e . . . h e a l s o
t ri e d t o p e r s u a d e m e t o r e si g n b u t I re f u s e d ”. B u t i f I w e re t o
s a y t o t h a t p e r s o n “ c o m e a n d . . . t h e st o r y yo u t o l d m e , g o a n d
s a y t o t h e c o m m i s si o n ”.
10

course...

the

Ye s, y o u s e e ?

C o m m i s si o n

has

Uh, he might, of

got

the

power

to

s u b p o e n a . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

There

is

no

way

we

can...

we

can

compare.
MR MOLEFE:

Yo u c a n d o t h a t .

CHAIRPERSON:

We c a n c o m p a r e .

Because it is... it is

v e r y i m p o rt a n t t h a t t h e C o m m i s si o n u n d e r st a n d s h o w i t c a m e
a b o u t t h a t i n c e rt a i n S O E ’s, f o r e x a m p l e , c o r r u p t i o n re a c h e d
the

ki n d

of

levels

that

we

have

heard

about

in

the

C o m m i s si o n .
20

MR MOLEFE:

H’m?

CHAIRPERSON:

How did that happen?

What was the

m e t h o d u s e d b y t h o se p e o p l e w h o so u g h t t o u h , e n g a g e i n
corruption?

I s i t t ru e t h a t t h e s o u g h t t o r e m o v e p e o p l e

w h o . . . w h o w a n t e d t o d o t h e ri g h t t h i n g s, w h o w e r e n o t
p r e p a re d t o d o w r o n g ?
Page 124 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Is it true that they sought to remove them, make it
d i ff i c u l t f o r t h e m t o d o t h e i r j o b s s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d t h e n
bring people who would dance to their tunes?
I f t h a t i s t r u e , t h e C o m m i s si o n n e e d s t o h e a r t h a t a n d
p e o p l e w h o h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e s e t h i n g s, w h e n t h e y d o
n o t c o m e f o r w a r d t o t e l l t h e C o m m i s si o n , i t . . . i t m a k e s i t
d i ff i c u l t .
A n d i t . . . w h a t t h e C o m m i s si o n i s d o i n g i s t r yi n g t o
s e e w h a t ca u s e d t h e s e p r o b l e m s s o t h a t i t c a n l o o k a t
10

re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t h a t i t c a n m a k e t o sa y g o i n g f o r w a r d ,
w h a t m e a s u r e s s h o u l d b e i n p l a c e t o m a k e s u re t h a t u m , t h e
country is a better country than uh, a country that is mired in
c o r r u p t i o n a n d st a t e ca p t u re a n d s o o n .
So... so one wishes that there will be more people
w h o co m e f o r w a r d a n d s a y:
“ T h i s i s w h a t I k n o w. T h i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d . I . . . I d o
n o t . . . I kn o w t h a t c e rt a i n o f m y f r i e n d s w o u l d n o t l i k e
me to come before the Commission and say this
thing.

20

I kn o w m y p a rt y w o u l d n o t l i k e m e t o c o m e a n d sa y
this thing.
I k n o w t h a t m y m i n i st e r o r w h o e v e r w o u l d n o t l i k e m e
to... to do this thing but I believe that I owe it to the
c o u n t r y t o c o m e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n b e ca u s e I l o v e
m y co u n t r y m o re .
Page 125 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
I w a n t t h i s c o u n t r y t o b e m a d e a b e t t e r c o u n t r y.
I do not want to see it mired in corruption the way the
p r e s e n t i s m i r e d i n c o r r u p t i o n ”.
S o I j u st w i s h t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e m o r e p e o p l e w h o
would

do

that

because,

at

the

end

of

the

d a y,

if

the

C o m m i s si o n d o e s n o t g e t t o g e t a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d t o
u n d e r st a n d h o w t h e se t h i n g s h a p p e n e d , i t c a n n o t c o m e u p
with good recommendations because it has not been enabled
t o h a v e p r o p e r u n d e r st a n d i n g o n h o w t h e se t h i n g s h a p p e n e d .
10

So that is why I continue.

I co n t i n u e t o b e g r a t e f u l

t h a t yo u . . . y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o c o m e h e r e a n d s h a r e w i t h
t h e C o m m i s si o n a l l t h e e x p e ri e n c e s t h a t yo u a r e a w a r e o f
a n d t h a t yo u w e n t t h ro u g h y o u r s e l f a n d y o u r b o a r d . . . . y o u r
b o a r d m e m b e r s.
I hope that other board members um, uh, will be
c o o p e r a t i v e w i t h t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d u h , s h a re w h a t t h e y
k n o w. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:

W h a t t h e C h a i rp e r so n h a s s a i d i s. . . g o e s

b a c k t h o u s a n d s o f y e a r s i n A n ci e n t R o m e w h e n C a e s a r ’s
20

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 3 : 5 4 ] i s a s k e d w h y h e s a i d , “ b e c a u s e I
l o v e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Please raise your voice Mr Soni.

A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r v o i c e g o e s d o w n a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]

A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y.
Page 126 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
W h a t h e s a y s, “I ki l l e d h i m b e c a u s e I l o ve

R o m e m o re t h a n I l o v e C a e s a r ”. A n d t h a t i s e xa ct l y t h e p o i n t
y o u a r e m a ki n g C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A D V S O N I S C : I t i s w h a t h u m a n n a t u r e n e e d s t o g o b e yo n d .
But let me... Mr Molefe, when I check at another thing raised
b y t h e C h a i r p e r so n . T h e C h a i r p e r s o n p o i n t e d o u t t h a t i t w a s
i m p o rt a n t f o r a b o a r d t o f u n ct i o n b e ca u s e i t h a s b e e n s u ch
10

a n i m p o rt a n t j o b i n t h e R 1 7 3 b i l l i o n e n t e r p ri s e .
N o w, e v e r y b o d y k n o w s t h a t t h e t e r m o f t h e b o a r d w a s
g o i n g t o e n d o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J u l y.
made

to

fill

the

va c a n ci e s

Where there any attempts
that

would

a ri se

on

the

31st of July?
MR MOLEFE:

No... no attempt was made Chairperson to

p r e p a re f o r t h e t i m e w h e n t h e t e rm o f o ff i c e o f t h e t h e n
board was coming to an end.

So it was going to be dealt

w i t h a s i f i t i s a n a f t e r -t h o u g h t .
A D V S O N I S C : N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

MR MOLEFE:
point.

B u t u h , o n t h e r e si g n a t i o n . . . I m u st m a k e t h i s

O n t h e . . . o n t h e re s i g n a t i o n s o f t h e d i r e ct o r s, I w a s

saddened deeply when the chairperson of the Audit and Risk
C o m m i t t e e o f t h e b o a r d w a s o n e o f t h o se w h o re si g n e d .
A n d r e si g n i n g a t a t i m e w h e n t h e b o a r d i s b u s y w i t h
t h e a u d i t f o r t h a t y e a r, f i n a l i s a t i o n . W h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o g o
Page 127 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
and give an account for how it will be used, the finances
a p p r o p ri a t e d t o b y u h , P R A S A .
But that chair of the Audit Committee goes away and
that

is

a

Committee.

f u n ct i o n

backed

by

the

chair

of

the

Audit

S o . . . s o I . . . I t h i n k i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t p e o p l e

e x p l a i n t h e i r a ct i o n s a s w e l l .

I t i s a v e r y i m p o rt a n t p o si t i o n

o f a p r o f e s si o n a l .
A n d . . . a n d i t . . . i t s h o w s h o w f o r e x p e ri e n c e d p e o p l e
c o u l d l e a d t o a c o l l a p se o f a v e r y i m p o rt a n t o r g a n o f st a t e
10

w h i c h s e r v e d t h e p o o r p e o p l e t o p l e a se s o m e b o d y w h o i s
i n t o m y o ff i c e e l se w h e r e . U h , C h a i r.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w a t . . . a t . . . w h y t h e l e v e l u h , M r Mo l e f e .

T h e m i n i st e r, t h e p r e vi o u s M i n i st e r D i p u o P e t e r s, d i s m i s s e s
the board on the 8th of March.
not want the board.
c o m e s.
you?”

I t i s q u i t e cl e a r t h a t t h e y d o

T h e n t h e M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n y i , h e

H e s a y s, “p l e a s e t e l l m e w h y I s h o u l d n o t d i s m i s s
S o i t i s q u i t e cl e a r t h a t t h e p o w e r s t h a t b e d i d n o t

w a n t yo u r b o a r d . B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR MOLEFE:
20

ADV SONI SC:

J a , i t w a s cl e a r.
. . . t h e y w a n t y o u t o f u rt h e r a g a p .

appoint a new board.

Wa n t s t o

Have you any idea why they did not

p u t a n y st e p s i n p l a c e , a n d a s y o u h a v e p o i n t e d o u t e a rl i e r
f i v e a n d a h a l f y e a r s l a t e r, w e st i l l d o n o t h a ve a p e r m a n e n t
board?
MR MOLEFE:

We l l , I d o n o t k n o w C h a i r p e r s o n . B u t I . . . I. . .
Page 128 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
it boggles my mind also.

I m e a n , i f yo u t a k e t h e M i n i st e r

M a s w a n g a n yi o f Tra n s p o rt , h e w ri t e s t o t h e b o a r d i n J u n e . I
t h i n k i t w a s s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h e 1 4 t h o f J u n e . H e s a y s , “s h o w
m e c a u s e w h y I s h o u l d n o t d i s m i s s y o u a l l ? ”. N o w h e w ri t e s
t h a t l e t t e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

E a rl i e r ?

MOLEFE:

...and

he

notes

that

at

the

end

of

J u l y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

. . . t h e t e rm o f o ff i c e o f t h a t b o a r d i s e n d i n g .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , s o t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k i n g i s, h e st i l l

w a n t s t o d i sm i s s t h e b o a r d a t a t i m e w h e n . . . i n a f e w w e e k s ’
t i m e , t h e t e r m o f t h e b o a rd w i l l e x p i re a n y w a y ?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s, C h a i r p e r s o n . H e s h o u l d h a v e u s e d t h a t

t i m e t o i d e n t i f y d i r e ct o r s h e w a n t e d t o se r v e o n t h e b o a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

A n d r u n t h e p r o c e s s. I t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e

t o d i sm i s s p e o p l e w h e n t h e y a r e l e f t w i t h a f e w w e e k s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR

H’m. H’m.

MOLEFE:

E ve n . . .

even

Mi n i st e r

Dipuo

P e t e r s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

H’m.

MOLEFE:

...dismiss

M a r c h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.
Page 129 of 204

the

d i r e ct o r s

in

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

. . . w h e n . . . a t t h e e n d o f Ju l y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.

T h e t e r m o f o ff i c e i s e n d i n g .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s.
A n d y o u h a ve f a i l e d t o d i s c h a r g e y o u r o w n

o b l i g a t i o n s t o w h a t t h a t b o a r d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

H’m.

MOLEFE:

...which

in

terms

of

the

shareholder

c o m p a ct . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
. . . y o u sh o u l d b e d i s c h a r g i n g b e c a u s e i t i s

o n e - w a y u h , st re e t .

Where... when... when the board had to

p e rf o rm , t h e m i n i st e r r e q u i r e d t o g i v e t h e n e c e s s a r y s u p p o rt
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.
. . . f ro m t h e d e p a rt m e n t a n d t h e e x e c u t i v e t o

e n a b l e t h e b o a rd a n d m a n a g e m e n t t o d o t h e i r w o r k.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

B u t sh e c h o o se s r a t h e r n o t t o d o t h a t .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

And focus on removing the Board.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m. H’m.

H’m.

And all of these things they gain momentum

after the meeting of July of 2015 tell us Mr Montana you
go, and after the meeting with the President and Minister
Page 130 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Jeff Radebe where we said in the meeting that as far as we
are concerned this man’s contracting is ending he’s got no
l i f e t i m e e m p l o y m e n t w i t h t h e c o m p a n y, t h e B o a r d h a s g o t
no intention to retreat on his decision.

We have asked him

t o s t a y p r e v i o u s l y, h e t o l d u s h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o s t a y.

So,

all of these things – and by the way I keep coming back to
this thing, they come also against the backdrop of the
S w i f a m b o m a t t e r w h e r e n o w, y o u k n o w, w e ’ l l p r o v e i n t h e
Court that there’s huge corruption here.
10

We have this

litigation, the Siyagena matter and so on, so all of this, you
can

see

that

there

is

a

relationship

between

the

determined fight against corruption by the Board on one
side and those that don’t want that work to continue and
we had nobody to protect that Board.

At some point I was

the only one dealing with the issue of corruption, at one
point.
CHAIRPERSON:

And this was at a time when you had

p r e v i o u s l y t o l d t h e t o p 6 o f t h e G o v e r n i n g p a r t y, y o u h a d
told the responsible Minister – Minister responsible for
20

PRASA what was going on, you were busy trying to get
corruption – allegations of corruption investigated properly
and of course, you had resisted the suggestion – I don’t
know if it was a suggestion or by – on your evidence by the
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t t o s a y, t h e B o a r d m u s t t a k e b a c k M r
Montana or review its decision about Montana.
Page 131 of 204

So, all of

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
these

things

were

happening

after

all

of

this

had

happened, is that right?
MR MOLEFE:

That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

S o b a s i c a l l y, w h a t p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g i s t h a t

we’re going to show them that power resides here not with
them.

Something similar to what we are experiencing in

the United States of America now where the President of
the country is perceived to be doing things that are flouting
10

the constitution and doesn’t respect the rule of law but
because he’s a powerful man with big monies, people just
support

what

he

is

doing

and

then

they

allowed

the

impeachment process again, his colleagues, even when
they know that they are wrong, they stood behind it.

Then

the next thing, what does he do, he goes and remove all
the good – the best prosecutors out, he once promised he
goes to the Court he wants the Judges to be – those who
would

ignore

the

basic

tenets

of

the

law

and

the

constitution and defend him as a person and we have seen
20

it here.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

We have seen it with our own President and

all of those people representing the Governing party in
Parliament.

We’re behaving as if we didn’t see anything

wrong

how

with

public

funds

were

Page 132 of 204

appropriated

for

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
personal benefits.

They defended that position until the

Courts decided – okay because we are failing to do what
you’re supposed to do, we as a Court will tell you what the
right thing is.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR MOLEFE:

So, there is a danger in allowing this kind

o f a b u s e o f p o w e r, a b u s e o f o f f i c e b y a n y b o d y, b e c a u s e i t
can lead to losses of lives, it can destroy the economy and
livelihoods
10

of

ordinary

citizens

and

it

is

important,

therefore, that there must be people that stand up against
t h i s a n d b y t h e w a y, a n d I s a i d s o b e f o r e , t h e f u n d a m e n t a l
issue that drives us to be our values and principles, rather
t h a n t o s a y, I h a v e a m e m b e r s h i p c a r d , t h i s p a r t y, I l o v e
t h e s e c o l o u r s o f t h i s p a r t y, i t ’ s n o t a b o u t t h e p a r t y, i t ’s
about the liberties, the rights and freedoms of ordinary
South Africans because even when

people engaged in

challenging the old system it was not so that a particular
party must be the one that must be one that is in power it
was so that South Africans must be able to choose who
20

must govern.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

H’m, h’m yes, no thank you Mr Molefe.
Mr Molefe on a number of occasions

y o u ’ v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r, y o u r e m e m b e r ?
MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s s i r.
Now I just want to point out, Mr Chairman,
Page 133 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
I don’t need to take either the witness or you there, that in
fact, the judgement in the High Court in the Swifambo
matter

was

handed

down

on

the

3rd

of

July

2017…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

During the – 2017, that would be their

last month, the last month of the Board.
ADV SONI SC:

It’s about the tim e that all of these things

were coming out and the significance of that will come out
i n l a t e r e v i d e n c e a s M o l e f e i s g o i n g t o t e s t i f y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Okay that’s fine.
But that date is important Chairperson

because you would think that where a Board has saved the
country R3.5billion there would be a reward in terms of, do
further service for the country but they are snuffed out as
Mr Molefe says by getting people not continue serving on
the Board,
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja

well

one

keeps

on

looking

for

patterns because there was evidence in relation to Denel
that the Board that was there before 2015 or that left in
20

2015,

if

I’m

Chairperson

not
was

mistaken,
Ms

van

I

don’t

Rensburg

know
or

whether

the

Professor

van

Rensburg had done a very good job, to the extent that the
Minister of Public Enterprises had also commended them
for their good work and said that they are – they should
continue, they were going to have their term extended but
Page 134 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
according to Ms van Rensburg that changed inexplicably
and they were all either dismissed or allowed to go when
their term expired and – except for two Board members, ja
o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

But that is – seems to be the pattern.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SONI SC:

N o w, y o u r B o a r d ’ s t e r m o f o f f i c e e n d e d

t h e n i n J u l y.
MR MOLEFE:
10

That is correct.

ADV SONI SC:

And – because you were not re-appointed

and were any of the other – well were any of the other
Board members appointed to any of the intern Boards?
MR MOLEFE:

There is the – the law requires that the

Board should have a representative of the South African
Local Government SALGA so that was the only person reappointed, Mr Xolile George.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Am I saying re-appointed to?

ADV SONI SC:
20

He was coming from…[intervenes].

To t h e i n t e r n B o a r d .

CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry he was coming from your

Board.
MR MOLEFE:

He was coming from my Board, he had also

been in the previous…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

So, he continued?

Ja.
Page 135 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y.

He knows PRASA more than anyone.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja was he the only member of your

Board that continued beyond the time of your Board?
MR MOLEFE:

That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.
N o w, M r M o l e f e c a n w e g o o n – w e ’ v e n o w

dealt with the Minister or firstly we dealt with the President
then
10

the

M i n i s t e r.

On

a

number

of

occasions,

you’ve

mentioned Parliament and the Portfolio Committee, what
steps did you make to secure protection for your Board
from Parliament and/or the Portfolio Committee.
MR

MOLEFE:

Chairperson,

Maybe
we

should

before
also,

we

maybe

deal

with

counsel

that,
knows

w h e t h e r h e w a n t s t o b r i n g i t , t h i s M i n i s t e r, M a s w a n g a n y i
sent two business men to my house, both of whom came
from his province, Limpopo…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

I’m sorry just raise your voice a bit.
Both of whom came from the province,

Limpopo.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O h o k a y.
George Sebulela and Solo Rasta to come

and say to me, look man – in fact they were the ones who
g o t t o k n o w, e v e n b e f o r e m e , t h a t s o m e o f m y D i r e c t o r s
had resigned – some of the Directors had resigned and so
Page 136 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
they

come,

they

s a y,

your

Directors

have

resigned…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t ’ s b e f o r e y o u k n e w.

Oh.

A n d y o u k n o w, t h e M i n i s t e r s a y s w e s h o u l d

come and talk to you.
CHAI RPERSON: We should com e and?
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ta l k t o y o u , a s k y o u , t o a g r e e t o a n

amicable separation, that he is willing to organise a media
briefing press conference where he will announce that you
and him have agreed to part ways, that you have agreed to
– you have decided to resign.

I said to the Minister – to

these gentlemen go and tell the Minister that if that is what
he wants to communicate to me, he should rather come and
do it himself, let it not be you. I thought that was an
important

point

that

needs

to

be

made

because

it

emphasises the extent to which – and the lengths to which
they
20

were

prepared

to

go,

to

get

this

Board

out

or

especially the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m,

did

they

share

with

you

any

reasons why he was saying this, why the Minister had
asked them to say this to you or was it simply that he was
saying, the two of you were not seeing eye to eye and I’m
saying that, knowing that you said you had hardly worked
Page 137 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
with him here and then he sent you a letter to show cause
why you should – the Board should not be dismissed?
MR MOLEFE:

No, they didn’t say that Chairperson, the

only reason they were latching on was that, look, you now
do not have a complete Board you don’t have a quorum.
W h i c h i s w h a t y o u w i l l s e e l a t e r, w h e n I h a v e a m e e t i n g
with the Minister which would have happened before these
g u y s c a m e b e c a u s e I i n s i s t e d o n m e e t i n g w i t h h i m t o s a y,
look I need to talk to you about PRASA and you need to
10

come and meet with the Board.

He was not interested in

any other thing I wanted to say to him, his first prize was
to drive home the fact that there is no quorum so we don’t
have a Board and he is not going to appoint a Board, so
he’s basically saying, why don’t you go.

So, these guys

come now to continue what he was telling me when I met
him.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m, could it mean that he was reluctant

to take any action that you could challenge in Court and
wanted you to agree to resign, failing which then, you’d
20

just have to be there but not be able to do anything
because the Board did not have a quorum?
MR MOLEFE:

I think earlier on, he wanted to find an easy

way of …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Getting rid of you.
Dissolving the Board because as we can
Page 138 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
s e e , b y J u n e h e h a d m u s t e r e d e n o u g h c o u r a g e n o w, t o
want to take us to Court on which he attempt he retreated
as soon as we wrote to him and told him that, you’re
actually

trying

to

achieve

the

same

things

that

your

predecessor tried to achieve but you’re trying to do it by
different means.

S o , I t h i n k h e w a n t e d t o d o i t q u i e t l y, I

think he didn’t want damage, maybe publicity or something
b e c a u s e w h e n y o u d o i t t h a t w a y, y o u a r e t h e o n l y o n e w h o
t a l k s a n d s a y, n o t h e C h a i r m a n c a m e , h e s a i d t o m e h e ’ s
10

resigning, I’ve accepted his resignation, it was a clinical
way of doing it.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

ADV SONI SC:

And about when was that meeting, did

those two gentlemen come to you?
MR MOLEFE:

I have to check but I think around April or

so, maybe somewhere there.
CHAI RPERSO N: That’s A pril 2017?
MR MOLEFE:

2017, April/May 2017.

ADV SONI SC:
20

So just more or less about the time he

came because he was appointed the end of March?
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And he had not even met you or the

Board in your capacity as Chairperson of the Board and the
Board?
MR MOLEFE:

He had never met the Board, but I had
Page 139 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
asked to see him.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
To p e r s u a d e h i m , f i r s t l y, t h a t h e h a s t o

make sure that his nominee attends meetings, that National
Tr e a s u r y s e n d s i t s r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s a n d b e g i n t h e p r o c e s s
of filling the vacant post but we were not able to discuss
much when I met him, he was not interested in the affairs
of PRASA.

His main business was to see how soon this

Board could go.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, by any chance know each other
before

he

became

M i n i s t e r,

the

two

of

you,

I’m

just

wondering why somebody who has just been appointed as
M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t w h o i s a s k e d b y t h e C h a i r m a n o f t h e
Board of PRASA for a meeting and to be introduced to the
Board won’t seem to be keen on that but the next thing he
wants the Board to show cause why they should not be
dismissed?
MR MOLEFE:

I got to know him when he was a member of

the Portfolio Committee on transport but he had been a
20

y o u n g m e m b e r o f t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y, a m e m b e r o f t h e
youth

league

and

I

think,

later on

he

worked

for the

government of Limpopo but I didn’t know him that well.

I

got to really see him at the Portfolio Committee meetings,
so we don’t really have any history or relationship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
Page 140 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, M r M o l e f e , j u s t b e f o r e w e f i n i s h w i t h

the need for a Board are you aware that in terms of the
PFMA, every public entity must have a Board of control
because that is the Accounting Authority for that public
entity?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And was this ever discussed at any time in

your meetings with either of the Ministers, Minister Dipuo
Peters or Minister Maswanganyi?
10

MR MOLEFE:

Well Chairperson with regard to Minister

Dipuo Peters it was not necessary to discuss it because
the

Board

problems

was
with

there,
the

the
Board

only

time

was

when

when

there

she

were

decided,

unilaterally and without any due process or notification to
the Directors that she was dissolving the Board, so – and
once she had done so, I mean, the battle lines were drawn
there was no time to negotiate, safe now in Court now to
say what counsel is saying now in the Court papers which
is what we did.
20

T h e o t h e r M i n i s t e r, k n o w s v e r y w e l l a s a

former member of the Portfolio Committee and also having
worked in government, knew that the Board needed to be
there for State owned entities and in fact, when you read
his long letter to me, to the Board, addressed to me, he
d o e s s a y t h a t t h e B o a r d i s t h e A c c o u n t i n g A u t h o r i t y, s o h e
knows very well.

S o w e – C h a i r p e r s o n , I s a y, t h i s M i n i s t e r
Page 141 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
the last one, Maswanganyi, never made time to meet with
the Board except when I met him alone and in that instance
I raised the fact that the Board has to go and account in
Parliament, the financial year is and has just ended and
we’re finalising the audit we’ve got to go to the Board,
we’ve got to go and report the annual reports to the Board.
So that is all I could say and, not interested in that, he
simply says, ja

but your real

Board does not have a

quorum.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

And he should be playing a critical role

to make sure that the Board has a quorum because one of
the nominees – one of the people who must be Board
members is from his department and another one should
c o m e f r o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f h i s c o l l e a g u e i n Tr e a s u r y ?
MR MOLEFE:

No, he knew Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

H’m.
Sir I don’t want to flog the point but this is

what concerns me, you earlier said that the PRASA Act
doesn’t make provision for an interim Board.
20

MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
So, they must have known that what they

are doing is not in compliance with the law but they’ve
done so for five and a half years. I’m just emphasising the
point that, that’s the extent to which your Board appears to
have irritated them at the very least.
Page 142 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e – j a I d o n ’ t k n o w

because, how they will justify that and I don’t know how
the Cabinet allows that to happen, I don’t know how the
President

of

the

country

and

Deputy

President

of

the

country would allow for this thing to continue, I don’t know
h o w t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i n a n c e , w h o r u n s Tr e a s u r y, w o u l d
allow this to go on because even if the Court might have
wanted to forgive you, they might have said, maybe well
y o u k n o w, g o v e r n m e n t c a n n o t a l l o w f o r a v a c u u m t o e x i s t
10

they needed to find something to run but the fact that when
they have the time they are not even beginning the process
of ensuring that a substantive Board has been appointed.
It’s somet hing that is inexplicable, of course I must say
that Minister Mbalula has recently come in and I saw that
he has advertised, maybe PRASA will now have a Board
after spending five years without a Board of control.
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Molefe, can we then go on to the issue

I raised with you about your approach to Parliament.

N o w,

we know you approached the Speaker of Parliament and
20

you did so in writing, is that correct?
MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:

That is so Chairperson.
And the letter that you wrote to her is

Annexure P M12 to your affidavit, it appears at Bundle D,
page 183, is that correct?
MR MOLEFE:

That is so Chairperson.
Page 143 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, i n e s s e n c e , w h a t d i d y o u w a n t M s

Mbete to do in her capacity as Chairperson of – I mean as
Speaker of Parliament?
MR MOLEFE:
book.

Chairperson we had tried everything in the

We had discussed with Ministers, we had attempted

to report in Portfolio Committees, we had been to Courts,
we had tried the Law Enforcement Agencies to assist, we
were not getting the help we needed. I thought Parliament,
as the National Body that represents the whole country
10

might be willing to know what is happening in PRASA
b e c a u s e P a r l i a m e n t i s t h e o n e , b y t h e w a y, t h a t a p p r o v e s
appropriation.
presents

the

When the Minister of Finance comes and
budget

various

department,

having

been

allocated certain amounts of money must still have that
approved by Parliament.

So it was important that the

Speaker of Parliament takes interest in PRASA and what
w a s I a s k i n g f o r, I w a s a s k i n g f o r a p u b l i c i n q u i r y b e c a u s e
you

had

this

many

stories

that

are

being

told

in

the

newspapers and what the Chairperson will read in this
20

report that was written by Mr Montana for Mr Radebe, all
kinds of lies.

Now I needed to have Parliament conduct a

robust public inquiry and then I was prepared to subject
myself to that.

That letter went without acknowledgment,

u p t o n o w.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, I s e e t h a t l e t t e r, i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e
Page 144 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
1 8 3 , t h a t l e t t e r w a s c o p i e d t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f S C O PA ,
t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t ,
t h e C h i e f W h i p s o f S C O PA a n d t h e C h i e f W h i p s o f t h e
Portfolio Committee.
MR MOLEFE:

That’s correct Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

N o w, i n s u p p o r t o f y o u r r e q u e s t f o r a

public inquiry or Parliamentary inquiry you raise a number
of points in paragraph 5, in essence, what were you saying
to Ms Mbete?
10

MR MOLEFE:

Should I read the paragraph?

ADV SONI SC:

In light of the fact that not much came out

but if you could just indicate because we just want to know
what is it that was brought to her attention?
MR MOLEFE:

Well I was bringing to her attention, the

fact that PRASA does not have a group CEO and that it is
important for PRASA to have the group CEO and therefore
to investigate, they should get the minutes that would
account for that in a sense.
And the second one was to deal with a number of
20

contracts, informed them about civil proceedings that were
under way to the tune of R7 billion and the fact that we are
basically seeking to have them set aside and then, of
course,

the

steps

that

were

being

taken

by

way

of

disciplining employees who were found to have conducted
themselves in a manner unbecoming.
Page 145 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Then, of course, I dealt also with my engagement or
P R A S A’ s

engagement

with

the

Directorate

for

Priority

C r i m e I n v e s t i g a t i o n s , t h e H a w k s , a n d t h e N PA a n d t h e
reports that were given them in terms of the requirement of
the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act.
So really to give a status report and to say these
are challenges, they require a deeper inquiry by parliament
and it should be a public one.
ADV SONI SC:
10

6

about

And then you make mention in paragraph

comments

made

by

members

of

the

Portfolio

C o m m i t t e e o n t h e 7 a n d 8 M a r c h t h a t y e a r.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , i t i s t h e m e e t i n g t h a t I

c o u l d n o t a t t e n d o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t
and that meeting was happening over two days. The report
I

got

from

the

directors

was

subjected to abuse, insults.
given

on

which

the

that

they

were

simply

The agenda that they were

discussion

was

supposed

to

be

conducted was just ignored, everything was just attacked,
attacked about Swifambo, why are you going to court with
20

these people, why are you appointing private investigators
when

you

Services?

should

be

using

the

South

African

Police

But we know South African Police Services was

crippled by that time, you were not going to get anything
out of them at the time because systems were broken.
S o b a s i c a l l y, t h a t i s w h a t w e w e r e s a y i n g a n d I w a s
Page 146 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
i n d i c a t i n g t h a t , o f c o u r s e , o u r t e r m o f o ff i c e i s a l s o e n d i n g
soon and that it was important that for those matters be
dealt with and would like to account on those matters.
ADV SONI SC:

So based on that you formally asked for a

parliamentary inquiry into the affairs of PRASA?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct, ja.

ADV SONI SC:

What was the reaction to this letter?

MR MOLEFE:

No response, no acknowledgement, up to

t o d a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s f r o m t h e S p e a k e r, w h a t a b o u t t h e

other people that you copied?
MR MOLEFE:

N o n e o f t h e m . I t h i n k S C O PA . S C O PA w a s

in the process of arranging for us to meet and not an
i n q u i r y p e r s e b u t w e d i d g o t o S C O PA .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , y e s .
To r e p o r t o n s o m e o f t h e s e m a t t e r s a n d

they also came to visit PRASA.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
20

O k a y.
But save for that there was no response

and nothing active was done to

- from parliament’s side to

probe PRASA.
MR MOLEFE:

There was nothing.

CHAIRPERSON:

Did

you

at

any stage

get

to

know

whether particularly the Speaker did receive your letter?
Did you get to know whether formally or informally?
Page 147 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

I asked the company secretary if the letter

would have been sent by email but it would also have been
hand delivered. I did, I did …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
I was assured by the company secretary

that it was delivered.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

H’m.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

It had been sent.

ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.
T h e n y o u a l s o o n t h e s a m e d a y, t h i s i s t h e

8 March, you wrote to the Chairperson of the Portfolio
C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h a t l e t t e r i s a t p a g e 1 8 7 a n d
it is marked annexure PM13, is that correct?
MR MOLEFE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r.

ADV SONI SC:

Now in this letter you mention a number of

points which are similar to the points that you make to the
S p e a k e r. I f I c o u l d j u s t s t a r t o f f a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . Yo u s a y :
“The

above

investigations

have

revealed

more

irregularities and corruption and obliged the board
20

to take the following steps.”
And you indicate that those steps …[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:
ADV SONI SC:

Is that paragraph 5?
S o r r y, p a r a g r a p h 5 o n p a g e 1 8 8 ,
Ye s , y e s , y e s .
Can you indicate what you said to the
Page 148 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
Portfolio Committee as to the steps the board had taken?
If you could just summarise that?
MR MOLEFE:

W e l l , t h e – r e a l l y, t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h i s l e t t e r

are more or less similar to what – that of the Speaker of
Parliament.
General’s

We were again indicating that the Auditorreport

of

2014/2015

financial

y e a r,

which

identified irregular expenditure to the tune of 550 million
w a s – s h o u l d I n o t j u s t r a t h e r r e a d b e c a u s e , y o u k n o w, t o
talk, I think it is going to be difficult.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y,

if

you

can

identify

features that you can read, you can read.

important

I think Mr Soni

is trying to avoid that …[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

No, it is basically to say what we have been

doing.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MOLEFE:

There has been the Public Protector ’s

report,

Auditor-General’s

report,

there

have

been

investigations that we have conducted.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
And there are certain steps that we had

taken.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

To r e s p o n d t o a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

MOLEFE:

Ye s .

Ye s .
And

we

indicated

Page 149 of 204

that

although,

for

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
example,

in

2014/2015

irregularities

amounted

to

550.

Irregularities for 2015/2016 were now going to over R14
billion and we will show what – that all of these were
uncovered by the investigations that we had conducted.
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Molefe, I suppose what I am trying to

do and can I just make my point.

On that same day you

wrote to the Speaker and you wrote to the Chairperson of
the Portfolio Committee.
To t h e S p e a k e r y o u s a y h o l d a n i n q u i r y i n t o P R A S A
10

but

to

the

Chairperson

of

the

Portfolio

Committee

it

appears that the purpose of your report is to say given all
that I have indicated to you that we have done, you ought
to treat us with more respect and you say that at paragraph
9.
Would that – I am just trying to draw a distinction
between the two letters where the purpose of – or the
differences between the purposes of the two letters.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e e s s e n c e o f m y l e t t e r

was that we are doing our job, we are responding to all
20

these irregularities that have happened and the results
show

what

governance

effort
but

we

your

are

making

committee

has

to
so

achiever
far

not

good
been

interested in the exercising of its oversight to focus on
things which are germane to good governance.
O n t h e c o n t r a r y, y o u a l l o w t h e m e e t i n g s o f t h e
Page 150 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
committee

to

be

chaotic,

you

allow

members

of

the

committee to attach management and directors and attack
t h e i r p e r s o n s a n d t h a t r e a l l y, l o o k i n g a t w h a t w e a r e d o i n g
to fix this organisation, you should be showing a modicum
of respect to the board of directors of PRASA and I said
p l e a s e , m a n a g e y o u r m e e t i n g s p r o p e r l y n o w.
Yo u d o n o t s e n d p e o p l e a n a g e n d a t h a t s a y s w e
require you to come and report or account on the following
issues.
10

They get there, you have forgotten about that

agenda, people are all over the place, they are talking
a b o u t p e r s o n a l t h i n g s , t h e r e i s n o t h i n g a b o u t t h e c o u n t r y,
a b o u t t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, Mr Soni, Mr Molefe earlier on

a s k e d w h e t h e r h e c o u l d j u s t r e a d t h i s l e t t e r.

It is not a

short letter but I think it is very important.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I think let us ask him to read it.

Mr

Molefe, please just read that letter in full, I think it is very
important.
20

MR MOLEFE:

J a . L e t m e t r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

This is the

letter addressed

by Mr

Molefe to Ms Dikeledi Magadzi Portfolio Committee on
Tr a n s p o r t .

I think she was the Chair and it appears as

annexure PM13 at page 187. Ja.
MR MOLEFE:

T h e s u b j e c t o f t h e l e t t e r, C h a i r p e r s o n , i s :
Page 151 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
“Briefing(?)

12.46

by

Passenger

Rail Agency

of

South Africa on service delivery at Metrorail.”
1. As you are aware, I send my apology to the
Portfolio

Committee

on

Tr a n s p o r t ,

P C O T,

indicating that I was not in a position to travel to
C a p e To w n . I , h o w e v e r, f o l l o w e d t h e p r o c e e d i n g s
o f t h e P C O T.
entire

first

I was shocked to learn that the

day

of

the

PCOT proceeding

was

about a matter that the Board of Control, the
10

BOC of PRASA, was not asked to bring to the
attention

of

the

P C O T.

We

were

invited

to

appear before the PCOT under the guise that we
were going to discuss Metrorail operations.

We

prepared a presentation for the POCT on this
basis and spent money in ensuring the presence
of

P R A S A’ s

officials

critical

to

operations

to

a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e P O C T.
2. The leadership of PRASA is aggrieved that the
BOC and key officials of PRASA were brought
20

i n t o t h e [ in d ist in ct] 1 4 . 1 8 C h a m b e r s o f P a r l i a m e n t
to discuss a matter that should not occupy the
time

and

attention

subjected

to

a

grossly

[ in d ist in ct ]

of

the

barrage

of

14.33

PCOT
false

and

were

accusations,

members

and

assassinations of character under your watch.
Page 152 of 204

I

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
request the Chairperson of the PCOT to urge
members

to

parliamentary

desist

from

privileges

abusing

and

the

immunity

by

assailing the characters of leadership of PRASA
by unfounded and spurious accusations without
producing any evidence.
3. As the accounting authority of PRASA the board
appreciates that parliament in general and your

10

committee

in

important

stakeholders

account to.

particular

is

one

that

of

the

PRASA

most

has

to

H o w e v e r, i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f p r o p e r

accounting and mutual respect the board cannot
be ambushed with a topic that does not add value
to the work of PRASA and be subjected to a
situation where that topic is treated in a way that
is grossly unfair and is a distraction from the
work of the committee.
The letter of Mr Letsoalo is a very simple one and
has been dealt with and formalised by the board
20

and

the

m i n i s t e r.

governance

the

comprehensive

In

accordance

Minister

report

on

3

has
March

with

good

received
2017.

On

a
1

March 2017 the minister terminated the secondment
of Letsoalo.

Now before you and your committee

accuse the board of being involved in dispute after
Page 153 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
dispute, the board has been engaged in a difficult
process

of

restoring

o r d e r,

good

corporate

governance and enforcing controls in an institution
where

these

have

been

deliberately

and

systematically destroyed over several years. In this
regard we urge you to familiarise yourselves with
(a)

The

Auditor-General’s

financial

year

expenditure
10

report

which

to

the

of

2014/2015

identified

tune

of

irregular

550

million.

According to the PFMA the board is obliged to
investigate

the

instance

of

irregular

expenditure, and
(b)

The Public Protector ’s report entitled Derailed
which found widespread maladministration and
breakdown

of

recommended

processes
that

the

and

board

systems
and

and

National

Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t i g a t e e v e r y c o n t r a c t a b o v e 1 0
million and concluded between 2012 and 2015.
(c)
20

The

Auditor-General’s

financial

year

which

report

of

identified

2015/2016
irregular

expenditure to the tune of 14 billion.

This

irregular expenditure was uncovered by the
investigations that were conducted under the
purview of the board of PRASA.”
Now paragraph 5:
Page 154 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
”The

above

investigations

have

revealed

more

irregularities and corruption and obliged the board
to take the following steps.
(a)

Provided about 69 reports in terms of Section
23 of the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt
Activities Act.

(b)

Assisted the Hawks in their investigations of
the alleged corruption and money laundering
in Swifambo and Siyangena contracts.

10

(c)

Launched a review application in respect of
the Siyangena and Swifambo contracts.”

6.

Operationally

the

investigations

assisted

PRASA to identify those contracts that were
awarded

to

people

capacity

nor

the

who

ability

had
to

neither

carry

out

contracts that were awarded to them.

the
the

These

contracts are the reasons for the constant
failure in operations.
7.
20

It

is

very

easy

for

any

person

who

is

oblivious to the amount of that corruption
and incompetence that we discovered in the
wake of the departure of the former Group
CEO to assume that all the challenges of
PRASA were caused by the board.
have

frankly

and

honestly

Page 155 of 204

We, we

shared

our

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
f r u s t r a t i o n s a n d c h a l l e n g e s w i t h t h e P C O T.
As

stated

above,

investigations

it

that

is

we

through

have

our

uncovered

almost 14 billion in irregular expenditure.
T h i s i s a l m o s t 9 0 p e r c e n t o f P R A S A’ s a n n u a l
expenditure.

It

is

almost

impossible

to

ensure quality services where almost all the
e x p e n d i t u r e i s i r r e g u l a r.
8.
10

The

board

has

implored

management

to

proceed with the quality assurance of the
draft turnaround strategy and process as per
the

discussion

believe

that

of

once

November
this

has

2016.

been

We

adopted

PRASA would be in a position to show the
positive and quality fruits of the money that
is spent by the fiscus to support the work of
t h i s i m p o r t a n t c o g i n o u r e c o n o m y.
9.

We implore you to ensure that PCOT avoids
sensational narrow sideshows of individuals

20

and focus on constructively interrogating the
presentation on Metrorail operations as per
the invitation.
engagement
experience

We value any constructive

that
of

s meant

millions

of

to

improve

commuters

P R A S A i s m a n d a t e d t o m o v e e v e r y d a y.
Page 156 of 204

the
that
We

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
had expected that the PCOT will focus on
this and not on a matter that concerns a
tripartite agreement that has lapsed.”
So

that

is

the

l e t t e r.

I

needed

to

s a y,

by

the

w a y,

C h a i r p e r s o n , w h e n I w r o t e t h i s l e t t e r, o n e o f t h e d i r e c t o r s
in parliament had implored me to – because after they
briefed me, they said no, write to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

Ye s . J a .

A n d I d i d t h a t i m m e d i a t e l y.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
Mr Chairperson, you are quite correct, it

is important that this letter is on record.

I was trying to

short circuit but I think it was led by …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no, it is not criticism on your

part because you do know that we are trying to strike a
balance between being quick and – but at the same time
doing justice to the issues.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A b s o l u t e l y.
So it is not criticism on your part, it is

just that while Mr Molefe was giving evidence I had a look
a t i t a n d I t h o u g h t i t i s i m p o r t a n t . A c t u a l l y – j a , o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

No, but with respect, Chairperson, that is

the balance I should have struck.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
L e t h i m r e a d t h e l e t t e r.
Page 157 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

No, no, no, that is alright, that is alright.
No to this letter did you get any response,

Mr Molefe?
MR

MOLEFE:

No

response,

Chairperson.

That,

C h a i r p e r s o n , i s n o w a d e p u t y m i n i s t e r, s h e i s n o w a d e p u t y
m i n i s t e r.
ADV SONI SC:

So the ball …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d

did

she

ever

acknowledge

receipt of this letter?
10

MR MOLEFE:

No acknowledgement, nothing.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w r i t e t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t ,

Minister Maswanganyi after his appointment and as I recall
you request a meeting for him to meet the board.

There is

no response, is that right? There is no response?
MR MOLEFE:

No response, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

There may be other letters you wrote to

which there was no response but you write to – you also
write to the Speaker of Parliament raising very important
issues about PRASA.
20

number

of

people

Yo u g e t n o r e s p o n s e .
in

parliament

and

Yo u c o p y a

except

for

the

C h a i r p e r s o n o f S C O PA i t l o o k s l i k e n o b o d y r e a c t s o r e v e n
acknowledges receipt and you write to the Chairperson of
t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t t o w h i c h P R A S A a n d
the board accounts, you raise very important issues yet
again you get no response, not even an acknowledgement
Page 158 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
of receipt. Is that right? That is what happened.
MR MOLEFE:

That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
That is what happened, Chairperson.

The

m e s s a g e i n t h a t s i l e n c e i s v e r y c l e a r, w e d o n o t w a n t y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Yo u s e e , t h a t i s w h a t I a m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

Yo u s h o u l d n o t b e t h e r e .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
10

That is what I am …[intervenes]

So we are not going to dignify you with an

a n s w e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is what I am trying to understand

b e c a u s e t h e l a c k o f r e s p o n s e c o u l d b e i n e f f i c i e n c y, c o u l d
be incompetence but it could be – could also be just a
refusal to deal with you and can it be incompetence with all
of these people?

Can it be inefficiency with all of these

people or is it that all of them were simply not prepared to
interact with you?

And I think from what you have said,

you would think that it probably was not incompetence or
i n e f f i c i e n c y, i t w a s a n a t t i t u d e b a s e d o n n o t w a n t i n g t o d e a l
20

with you or – maybe I do not know whether this was a way
of dealing with you, it was an attitude that we do not want
to have anything to do with you.
MR MOLEFE:

Well, I wrote many letters, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .
At least I know that Mr Sean Abrahams
Page 159 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
replied my letters.

He was not going to do what I was

saying he should do but I at least he replied, you know?
Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
N o w, M r M o l e f e , i n y o u r l e t t e r t o t h e

Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee you talk about the
meeting of the 7th and 8th of 2017 – 7th and 8th March 2017.
But in your affidavit, you then go on to say but that is how
throughout our tenure as board members we had been
10

treated and I would like you to deal with that because you
deal with it from paragraph 105 of your affidavit.

Or if you

could just from recollection indicate to the Chairperson
that what happened at that meeting was not something new
to us.
MR

MOLEFE:

Ye s ,

Chairperson,

it

was

really

not

something new and again, things changed after we agree
with Mr Montana that he would not get another contract
and after we insist that as a board we should do what the
Public Protector is asking us to do, answer the questions
20

she

is

wanted

asking
us to

and

investigate

discuss.

So all

those

matters

of that and

that
up

she

to the

dismissal of Mr Montana.
S o w e s t a r t s e e i n g t h i s b e h a v i o u r.

I was going to

s a y, C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t i f o n e l o o k s a t s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s
that

I

s a y,

the

Portfolio

Committee

Page 160 of 204

was

saying

to

my

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
directors, they are pretty similar to the contents of this
report that was …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h e P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

T h e Tu r m o i l i n P R A S A r e p o r t ?

T h e P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l r e p o r t .

Now it does give one the impression that it

too was shared with them.

So it is an organised group.

The basis of that organisation is how to get rid of this
board, how to stop their investigations into corruption.
10

N o w r e p e a t e d l y, t h e r e f o r e , w h e n t h e d i r e c t o r s w e n t
to the Portfolio Committee, it was just a circus.

It was a

circus, sometimes somebody just stands up and say we
understand

and

employee

somewhere

is

being

purged

because he is not wanted, he is not supporter of this board
or

because

Montana.

you

believe

he

is

a

supporter

of

Lucky

Now you do not have that nonsense, that’s what

t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t s h o u l d i n v e s t i g a t e i f i t t h i n k s
that the Board is not doing what it is supposed to, but that
is what they are doing.
20

We often got the impression that

there is some kind of rehearsal before we appear before
the Portfolio Committee.

Our engagements were always

hostile and acrimonious, and when people asked questions
it was something akin to people who have gone through
chorography of some point, you know your party this one
played,

and

sometimes

you

would

Page 161 of 204

see

that

they

sat

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
somewhere

writing

questions

and

they

distributed

questions amongst themselves and you literally hear them
saying

having

covered

that

one

that

question,

having

covered that question, it is not about them listening to the
reports that is placed before them and then responding to
that report, it is about what they were told by somebody
from

outside

to

ask the

Directors

when

they

come

to

Parliament.
So that is how that Portfolio Committee was playing
10

its role and when you say to them we need to focus on the
business of the committee they say you are not going to
tell us how to do our job.
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

Yo u w i l l l o o k a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n b u t

I want to ask you in relation to what appears to be a
choreographed presentation on their side did that apply
only to the ruling party or was it among the opposition
parties as well?
MR MOLEFE:

I t w a s m a i n l y t h e r u l i n g p a r t y, i t w a s t h e

r u l i n g p a r t y, y o u w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r u l i n g p a r t y
20

knowing that it is the government of the day and the SOE’s
that it is in charge of that they would try to assist those
SOE’s to do their job properly and protect them.

It wasn’t

so.
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

Surely – can I ask you, because it

is related to this issue; in paragraph 108 on page 27 of
Page 162 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
your affidavit if you could just read that into the record
because I want to ask a couple of questions around that
relating to the role of the different parties in the portfolio
committee.
MR

MOLEFE:

The

paragraph

108

reads

as

follows

Chairperson:
“In my view the Portfolio Committee focused on
trying to find wrongdoing with the investigations
commissioned
10

by

the

BOC,

the

appointment

of

Werksm ans and regulatory of BOC meetings.”
Now – should I wait – now when you talk about irregularity
of the Board meetings then I am pleased that I mentioned
it before.

W h e n y o u g o t o t h e P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l d o c u m e n t

there is a long complaint there and actually it lists the
number of meetings that the Board have.
Now that was discussed clearly with this Portfolio
Committee and the Portfolio Committee has become his
M a s t e r ’ s Vo i c e o n t h i s i s s u e , t h a t y o u a r e m e e t i n g t o o
m u c h , y o u h o l d t o o m a n y m e e t i n g s . Yo u s h o u l d b e m e e t i n g
20

only four times.

Now there’s nowhere where meetings are

restricted to four times, the Companies Act requires, and of
course the Public Finance Management Act would also say
so, that the Board should meet a minimum of four times per
annum, but the meetings of a Board are determined by the
work that has to be done, and for a long time by the way
Page 163 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
these meetings were taking place and they were not being
p a i d f o r, t h e r e w a s o n l y s o m e w h e r e i t w a s t h e e n d w h e n
that happened and it turned out that the Minister had not
approved a policy and I said well if the policy has not been
approved money must be paid back and I was the first to
pay it back.
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

N o w y o u s a y, a n d t h i s i s m y p o i n t ,

that in your letter of the 8th of March 2017 you say to the
Chairperson
10

of

the

Portfolio

Committee

that

we

have

i n v e s t i g a t e d t h e f o l l o w i n g m a t t e r, t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r, t h e
Siyangena matter and other matters worth billions of Rands.
Yo u

say

here

that

instead

of

concentrating

on

the

wrongdoing of possible tenderers and management they
were concentrating on things that they said the Board was
doing, notwithstanding that the amounts you were talking
about were billions of rands.
MR MOLEFE:
ADV

VA S

Ye s .

SONIC

SC:

What

I

want

to

ask

in

that

connection is but surely the opposition parties would have
20

said no but what are you doing about Siyangena, can you
give us a report, can you give us a report on Swifambo, we
understand you have taken them to Court, or was there not
a voice for them?
MR MOLEFE:
asking

about

No there was a voice, I mean they were
those,

there

were

also

Page 164 of 204

those

who

were

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
genuinely

concerned

about

operations

of

Metrorail,

especially in the Western Cape, so they were asking and
by the way I can now say so, that when it became clear
that this committee is not interested in what we are doing I
invited willing Parliamentarians, even from the opposition,
to visit and see, meet with the investigators to see the
work that we were doing, because the Portfolio Committee
was not allowing that space for a proper report, or if it was
there it was not allowing for a discussion of that report.
10

A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

So when you say you called willing

Parliamentarians

you

are

saying

Parliamentarians

who

were not part of the Portfolio Committee but who were
i n t e r e s t e d i n P R A S A’ s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MOLEFE:

No, no, no, who were part of the Portfolio

Committee.
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :
MR MOLEFE:

Oh.

Some of them of course would have been in

S C O PA .
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :
20

And were there also members of the

ruling party or none of their members?
MR MOLEFE:

No there were not members of the ruling

p a r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

But what you are saying is did you give

an open invitation to individuals who were members of the
committee

who

were

interested

Page 165 of 204

in

coming

to

see

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

No, no, no, I ...[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

It was individuals that you ...[intervenes]

MR

It

MOLEFE:

was

individuals

who

were

showing

interest in what we were doing.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y, o k a y.

And who were realising that sitting in those

sectors of meetings they were not going to get proper
information.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Were meetings of the committee,

a s f a r a s y o u k n o w, b e i n g m e c h a n i c a l l y r e c o r d e d , a s f a r a s
you know?
MR MOLEFE:

They are supposed to be.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b e c a u s e i t w o u l d b e g o o d t o g e t t h e

transcripts of what was being said, particularly in meetings
between the Board and this committee over the years that
you have indicated here, 2015, 2016, 2017.
MR

MOLEFE:

It

would

certainly

be

good

to

do

so

Chairperson.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

I didn’t hear that.
I said it will be good, it will be helpful.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

I have been told that – I

don’t know whether with all portfolio committees, but with
some

committees

Parliament,

they

or

all

make

committees
notes

and

Page 166 of 204

don’t

only

the

record

in

National

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
A s s e m b l y r e c o r d s m e c h a n i c a l l y, s o I d o n ’ t k n o w t o w h a t
extent

that

information

is

correct,

but

if

there

is

a

transcript or transcripts we should try and get.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

So,

and

if

we

don’t

get

that

we

nevertheless should try and get maybe two or so other
people, either from the Board, your Board, or from the
Committee who can tell us some of the things that were
happening in that Committee during the time of your Board,
10

you

have

said

in

paragraph

106

of

your

a ff i d a v i t

the

meetings of the Portfolio Committees during 2015, 2016
and 2017 could best be described as chaotic.
So it is very important, you get put in a committee
in Parliament so that you can exercise a very important
responsibility of oversight.
MR MOLEFE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

If now members of a committee instead

of doing their job they might actually not be doing their job
properly while an entity such as PRASA was losing billions
20

of Rands through corruption, it will really be very important
to see exactly what was happening.

Were they turning a

blind eye to massive corruption that you wanted to tell
them about, resulting in the country losing billions in that
e n t i t y,

billions of

Rands in

interested in other things.

t h a t e n t i t y, a n d

they were

Let us know if that is what was

Page 167 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
happening so I would like to know if there are transcripts
so that these things can be put in the open, because I keep
on saying when we see S OE’s, or a number of them, being
in the positions in which they are now in 2020 financially
we have got to go back and say when did it start, but
Parliament was supposed throughout to be overseeing, to
be exercising oversight and where was it as the situation in
e a c h o f t h e s e S O E ’ s w a s d e t e r i o r a t i n g e v e r y y e a r, w h e r e
was Parliament, what was Parliament doing?
10

Where were

the Portfolio Committees, what were they doing about it?
So I think Mr Soni you know there should be an
attempt to try and see if you can get transcripts, if there
are any transcripts of all of those meetings between the
Board, this Board and the Portfolio Committee during those
years.
A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

Ye s , o k a y.

Mr Molefe when the

Parliamentarians who displayed a genuine interest in fixing
u p P R A S A’ s p r o b l e m s , i f I c a n p u t i t t h a t w a y, w h e n t h e y
met with you and other members of the Board, what was
20

their impression of the – sorry – what was their impression
of what the Board was uncovering?
heard,

because

we

have

seen

the

I mean we have
court

reports

like

Swifambo, Siyangena, what was their reaction?
MR MOLEFE:

Any normal being would be shocked by the

level, the extent of this corruption, and they were shocked
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29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
and they wanted action.

They wanted action.

And when

the Chairperson says were they not concerned that these
things were

happening.

If they were concerned, they

would have supported my efforts to compel the Hawks to
investigate their cases and to explain to us why they are
n o t d i s c h a r g i n g t h e i r c o n s t i t u t i o n a l d u t y.

That should have

been the work done by Parliamentarians, so they were not
doing it.
But I am saying the opposition was supporting, look
10

Swifambo, because they – sometimes they are political
p a r t i e s s o t h e y w i l l t r y t o s c o r e p o i n t s a g a i n s t o n e a n o t h e r.
The articles we were reading this morning, we were looking
at this morning there is a section where the EFF specifically
raises concern about the fact that PRASA was spending
R3.5billion on locomotives that are dysfunctional, that are
not fit for purpose.
So we want people to be saying these things from all
k i n d s o f p a r t i e s b e c a u s e i t i s a b o u t t h e c o u n t r y n o w, i t i s
not about sectarian interest, it is about all of our people.

20

A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

I am raising it in the context of how

a democracy can better function if you have more effective
public representatives, even if they belong to a minority
p a r t y.

For example could a Parliamentarian not write to

the Hawks and say but what’s happening to the Swifambo
m a t t e r, w h a t ’ s h a p p e n i n g t o t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r ?
Page 169 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

I suppose if Parliamentarians could do that,

that is what Dr Helen Suzman used to do, those many
y e a r s w h e n s h e w a s t h e o n l y P a r l i a m e n t a r i a n o f t h e P F P,
but if there is a particular agenda that is being pursued,
and you have the governing party that has got a leader like
the current President of the United States who is doing
what he is doing, people are dying of Covid-19 and he
doesn’t encourage people to be like you Chairperson and
me wearing masks, he just goes there, he organises indoor
10

big meetings and he breaks the system to appoint cronies
as prosecutors, as judges, so if the Hawks are run by
cronies, people with a particular agenda, not agenda of
e n f o r c i n g t h e r u l e o r e n s u r i n g t h e r u l e o f l a w, i f t h e y a r e
not ensuring the rule of law they can – opposition can
guide to them, nothing will happen. Nothing will happen.
As the Honourable Chairperson would have noticed
in many instances in this country things got right only after
the courts decided on that, because people don’t want to
do what they are supposed to do.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

And

that

is

such

a

pity

because

sometimes people, not sometimes, very often people who
might want to take issues to Court don’t have money to
take those issues to Court and then – so it is just in certain
circumstances where somebody is able to assist or some
organisation is able to assist to bring matters to court but
Page 170 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
if Parliament were to play its part correctly and if it were to
play its part correctly it seems that there is a lot of damage
that

could

be

prevented

from

happening

and

a

lot

of

financial loss that could be prevented, that the country
w o u l d o t h e r w i s e s u f f e r.
MR MOLEFE:

That is true Chairperson.

Just to return to

the point that was made by Counsel, yes indeed if and
w h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i s s a y i n g n o w, i f i n d e e d p e o p l e w h o
go
10

to

Parliament

understand

that

they

are

public

representatives they might have gotten in there using a
party ticket, but once they are in Parliament they are not
r e p r e s e n t i n g s e c t a r i a n i n t e r e s t o f a p a r t y, t h e y r e p r e s e n t
those ordinary men and women in the villages, in the
t o w n s h i p s , o n t h e f a r m s , w h o a r e p o o r, t h e y h a v e b e c o m e
the voice of the people because those people cannot be
there at Parliament in their millions, so they must make
sure

that

what

they

say

there

and

what

they

decide

correctly reflect the experiences of the people that they
claim to represent, so it is important to do that, and I do
20

think that as Counsel says that if we have more and more
o f s u c h p e o p l e o u r d e m o c r a c y w i l l f u n c t i o n b e t t e r, b e c a u s e
it would mean even the most powerful of the parties will
not take for granted the support of the voters, they would
know

that

listening

to

the
the

voters

will

opposition

learn

something

because

Page 171 of 204

the

further

opposition

by
is

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
talking to those things that are touching their souls and
their hearts.
CHAIRPERSON:

And in the process a lot of money that is

lost to corruption could be used for the needs of the
people, because the needs of the people – the people have
a lot of needs that need government to attend to, and
t h o s e n e e d s n e e d m o n e y.

Now if Parliament doesn’t do a

job properly and corruption levels just keep on going up
then the money that is lost through corruption goes to a
10

f e w, i n s t e a d o f b e i n g a b l e t o b e u s e d f o r t h e m a j o r i t y o f
citizens.
Ye s M r S o n i I s e e w e a r e – w e h a v e g o n e p a s t f o u r
o’clock but I would like if possible that we finish with Mr
Molefe because I am sure he would like to be able to go
and do other things. Can we continue Mr Molefe, is that
alright with you?
MR MOLEFE:

Now?

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:
20

I a m h a p p y t o c o n t i n u e u n t i l w e f i n i s h C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Ja, straight ja.

Ye s , y e s o k a y, o k a y.

I will talk less going forward.

CHAIRPERSON:

No, no that ...[intervenes]

ADV SONI SC:

No, that you cannot do because this is

going to be an important part of your evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, all of the things that you have been
Page 172 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
saying are important.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , n o w y o u t h e n s a y t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h

111 t h a t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d a n d y o u u s e d s o m e s t r o n g
language, could you read that into the record what you say
a t p a r a g r a p h 111 ?
MR MOLEFI:

It reads as follows Chairperson.

“I found the conduct of the members of the Portfolio
Committee to be disgraceful and it appeared from
their line of questioning that they appeared to have
10

been

lobbied

investigations.
holding

those

to

compel

the

BOC

to

stop

the

The looting of the public purse and
responsible

for

such

looting

accountable appears not to be important to them at
all.”
Now the pattern Chairperson here is the same, I mean you
go to – you look at the conduct of Minister Maswanganyi,
y o u l o o k a t t h e c o n d u c t o f M i n i s t e r D i p u o P e t e r s m u c h l a t e r,
now in 2017, and you look at the conduct of the President
and Minister Radebe that evening in a meeting, it is all
20

about how do we frustrate this drive to end corruption.
Now I don’t know what it is that all of these people
have in common, what is it that draws them so close to one
another that they would not disagree on issues that are so
obvious.
ADV SONI SC:

Now you mentioned that they even asked
Page 173 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
for the investigators, namely Werksmans Attorneys, to be
subjected to an SAA vetting.
MR MOLEFI:

That is so. That is so Chairperson.

ADV SONI SC:

And you say that that is the first time that

any investigator had been subjected to that requirement.
MR MOLEFI:
an

Investigator or investigation, I don’t mind if

investigator

who

is

investigating

a

government

department, because government departments deal a lot
with classified information, if the State Security says we
10

have got to make sure that these people are going to have
access to classified documents are vetted, are people who
can be trusted, it is understandable, but you cannot go out
there in the general public of South Africa and say every
c o m p a n y m u s t b e v e t t e d b y S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y, t h e y
have got far more work to do to protect the country than to
worry about vetting people who are investigating corrupt
individuals.
ADV SONI SC:

T h e n t h e l a s t l i n e o f p a r a g r a p h 11 2 y o u

say you link it, this requirement to certain regulations where
20

you tell the Chairperson what those regulations are.
MR MOLEFI:

W e l l I t h i n k i t i s d i ff i c u l t t o r e m e m b e r

specifically now but we had ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u c a n r e a d i t i f y o u – i f t h a t w i l l

m a k e i t e a s i e r f o r y o u . P a r a g r a p h 11 2 .
MR MOLEFI:

No, no it won’t.
Page 174 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFI:
were

in

O h i t w o n ’ t , o k a y.

There had been revelations that people who

intelligence

you

know

got

involved

in

corrupt

a c t i v i t i e s t h e r e h a d b e e n r e p o r t a b o u t t h e i r o ff i c e s b e i n g
broken into, information disappearing.

There are instances

a c t u a l l y a l s o o f m o n i e s d i s a p p e a r i n g f r o m t h o s e o ff i c e s .
Now we are being asked, and some of them of
course have been implicated in some of the contracts in
these companies, including PRASA, now have been asked
10

that they should be the ones who vet the investigators. The
investigators are going to investigate and they have to
investigate their conduct as well as service providers to
PRASA, so it did not make sense to me to ask for that to be
done except where you are looking for an elegant way of
frustrating the investigations without appearing to be doing
so.
ADV SONI SC:

Then could you read from the last line of

p a r a g r a p h 11 2 o n p a g e 2 7 , t h e w o r d s t a r t i n g m o r e o v e r t h i s
requirement of the SSA investigation.
20

MR MOLEFI:
ADV SONI SC:

Should I read it?
Ye s p l e a s e , j u s t f r o m t h e l a s t l i n e o n t o t h e

next page.
MR MOLEFI:
“It was also strange to me that such SSA vetting was
o n l y r e q u i r e d f o r We r k s m a n s a n d n o t f o r a n y o t h e r
Page 175 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
service

provider

conducting

investigations

at

PRASA.

M o r e o v e r, t h i s r e q u i r e m e n t o n l y e m e r g e d

as more and more corruption was exposed.”
ADV SONI SC:

Sorry the sentence continues on the next

page.
MR MOLEFE:

O h , o k a y s o r r y. O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Perhaps you should read that sentence

again, it is quite key Mr Molefe.
MR MOLEFE:
10

ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:

“It was strange to me ... ...[intervenes]
No, no, no starting with “moreover”.
Oh.

“ M o r e o v e r, t h i s r e q u i r e m e n t o n l y e m e r g e d a s m o r e
and more corruption was exposed, particularly Mr
Osler Mashaba revealed that 18million had been
paid to individuals who claimed to be collecting the
f u n d s o n b e h a l f o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t p a r t y.
ADV SONI SC:

Now can I ask you where did you get that

information from that Mr Mashaba, Mashaba had collected
R18million for the governing party? Mr – also Mashaba well
20

of course the investigation was reported in the media and
e v e r y w h e r e b u t h e b e g a n t o w o r r y.

He apparently became

suspicious that he – he was being investigated.

He knew it

had to be because he was part of Swifambo, he was the
Chairman of Swifambo that is a company that got that big
contract for the locomotives. He sent someone to approach
Page 176 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
a certain Mr Philemon Mamabolo who worked for PRASA in
the security division mainly in the business investigations
unit.

I t h i n k t h a t i s w h a t t h a t D I U s t a n d s f o r.

And he said

he wanted to meet with the Chairman of the Board of
PRASA – oh this individual who was unknown advised
Mamabolo that Mashaba wants to meet with him.

So they

met with Mamabolo somewhere in Pretoria in an Italian
restaurant.

At that meeting he told him that he believed

that he was being investigated and he was worried that he
10

might lose all the assets that he had accumulated working
h a r d f o r.

And he did not want to lose what he had as a

result of the contract of Swifambo.
running like filling stations.

He was a man who was

He had all kinds of things and

he had an engineering consulting business AM Engineering.
So he wanted to meet with me as the Chairman of the Board
so Mamabolo asked me, I agreed to meet with him. We met
in Sandton at the Maslow Hotel.

I had asked one of our

directors Ms Matlala, Sheila Matlala to accompany me and
so it was Mr Mamabolo.
20

Mashaba came and he repeated

what he had told Mamabolo to say that he is worried that he
might lose everything that he has and he really is begging
that we should not take whatever he asks.

He worked hard

for which had nothing to do with Swifambo and he said that
he – he actually had not known the founder of Swifambo
before.

The founder of Swifambo was Makhensa Mabunda
Page 177 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
or Mabunda Makhensa.

Makhensa had approached him and

asked him to join him become a director of Swifambo and
become

a

Chairman

thereof

that

there

opportunity at PRASA for the locomotives.
t o b i d f o r t h a t t e n d e r.
course had agreed.

was

a

tender

He wants them

So – so he goes on and Mashaba of
But Mashaba says, I am prepared to

co-operate provided you guys will not take my assets.

So

he starts telling us a story about the various people whom
he paid money to and as he was talking I said, look I do not
10

think I want to go around saying you paid money to people
unless you can demonstrate by way of bank deposits that
you actually paid money to these people and give us the
names of those people or their companies and so on. So he
said he did not have the documents but he – he could make
them available.

And when he made the documents that is

how we got to know about this R80 million.
there were other monies that he paid.

He did say that
I think he paid

another R90 000.00 and he paid another R1 050 000.00 but
those monies he said he did not have proof because he was
20

– he was giving cash.
paying money to?

Now who are the individuals he was

One of them was a person who was born

in Angola, a lady called Maria Gomez.

She ran a company

called, I think it was called Similex and then the other one
was an attorney George Sabelo.

I think at the time Sabelo

was working for I think Bowmans.
Page 178 of 204

I cannot remember

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
e x a c t l y.

So – so these are the monies I cannot remember

the rest of the monies but they are paying quite a number of
companies.

I

dealt

with

those

details

in

one

of

the

applications in the Swifambo Application when I was still the
Director of PRASA.
ADV SONI SC:

Can I just in reference to what you have

just said your evidence in the Swifambo matter by way of
a ff i d a v i t . M a y I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t B u n d l e D p a g e 2 5 9 ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

That is the same bundle in front of you is

it not?
ADV SONI SC:

It is the same bundle in the…

CHAIRPERSON: The same bundle ja.
M R M O L E F E : O h t h e s a m e b u n d l e o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 259.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: Okay
ADV SONI SC: So Mr Molefe have you got it?
MR MOLEFE: I got it. I got it.
20

ADV SONI SC:

The title of the document is a replying

a ff i d a v i t , d o y o u s e e t h a t ?
MR MOLEFE: I see yes.
ADV SONI SC:

Now I am just pointing out so that we can

put it in context.

T h i s i s y o u r r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t i n t h e

S w i f a m b o m a t t e r, w o u l d t h a t b e c o r r e c t ?
Page 179 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

We did not include the whole replying

a ff i d a v i t w e j u s t i n c l u d e d t h e p a r t s r e l a t i n g t o t h e m a t t e r s
y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h n o w. B u t c a n I a s k y o u i n y o u r f o u n d i n g
a ff i d a v i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Before you do so.
A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Just for the sake of completeness the

S w i f a m b o m a t t e r i s a s i t a p p e a r s f r o m t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r
10

Molefe at page 259 was case number 2015/42219 in the
Gauteng Local Division of the High Court. The matter being
Passenger Rail agents of South Africa versus Swifambo Rail
Leasing Pty Limited.
ADV SONI SC: As you please.
MR MOLEFE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SONI SC: Now in – in your replying – in your founding
a ff i d a v i t y o u d i d n o t r a i s e t h i s i s s u e a b o u t M r M a s h a b a ’ s
telling you about the payment of funds. Is that correct?

20

M R M O L E F E : Ye s . Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: Because that is a complaint he makes.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think you might need to explain to him

t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o t h e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t t h a t h e f i l e d
i n t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

S o r r y.

Yo u r e c a l l t h e c a s e t h a t w a s

Page 180 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
m a d e o u t i n t h e o r i g i n a l – w e l l i n t h e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t i n
the Swifambo matter Mr Molefe?
MR MOLEFE: The – the case that we were making was one
of asking the court to consider and set aside the arbitration
step in the – in the contract between Swifambo and PRASA.
And the reason we wanted that set aside and us proceeding
immediately for the application to set aside the contract on
the basis that it actually never existed. It was invalid at the
initial because certain conditions which should have been
10

met were not met.

And it was our view that time that if we

were to go the – you go the route of arbitration.

If you

disagree about elements of the contract but you – you do
not accept that the contract exists but in this instance we
were saying it does not exist so there should not be a need
for arbitration but of course you cannot just exclude it
unless the court set it aside.
A D V S O N I S C : T h e – I a m m a k i n g a s l i g h t l y d i ff e r e n t p o i n t .
I n y o u r o r i g i n a l – i n y o u r f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t y o u d i d …
MR MOLEFE: In the Swifambo matter?
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s i n t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r.
M R M O L E F E : A n d i t i s n o t t h i s o n e t h i s i s a r e p l y.
A D V S O N I S C : T h i s i s y o u r r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t .
MR MOLEFE: So why do we not go to the founding one?
ADV SONI SC: No, no Mr…
CHAIRPERSON: Oh but I think he might have something…
Page 181 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
M R M O L E F E : I t m a k e s i t d i ff i c u l t .
ADV SONI SC: No, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e I w i l l n o t r e m e m b e r.
ADV SONI SC: Mr Molefe when you first gave evidence.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

We went through the judgment of Justice

Francis. We went through the judgment of Justice Lewis.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s , y e s .
10

A D V S O N I S C : Yo u r e m e m b e r ?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

Because they think that this was corrupt.

Mr Mthimkhulu so called Doctor Mthimkhulu had set aside –
had tailor made the contract for Swifambo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: Do you remember it?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: So this matter that you are raising now was
not raised in that.
20

a ff i d a v i t .

But you do raise it in the replying

The only reason that is important is – because I

want to go to Mr Mashaba’s response to what you say which
is also included in these papers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: I am just trying to orientate you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
Page 182 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC: So that we can deal with your evidence in a
s y s t e m a t i c w a y.
MR MOLEFE:

Let me understand.

In that case the issue

was the contract is not valid.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . A n d t h a t i s w h a t t h e c o u r t f o u n d .
MR MOLEFE:

Probably then the lawyers would have held

that to go into the details about Mashaba does not prove
anything with regard to that.
ADV SONI SC: I am not criticising.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
w a y.

Ye s .

But maybe we can deal with it this

Mr Soni you obviously have looked at his founding

a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And you know that he did not say anything
about this issue.

Yo u c a n s a y t o h i m t h a t h e c a n a c c e p t

that you have checked and he did not say – say anything
about this issue and then put the question that you want to
put.
MR MOLEFE: It is true and the court did not deal with it.
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . S o y o u – b u t i n y o u r r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t
you dealt with this piece of evidence you now linked today
t o s a y M r M a s h a b a h a d a p p r o a c h e d y o u t o s a y, p l e a s e c o m e
to my rescue, do not take away all my – all my assets.
Remember you said that a little earlier?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
Page 183 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

So is it correct that when you look at

p a r a g r a p h 9 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t o d a y i s a
summary

of

what

is contained

in

paragraph

9

of

your

a ff i d a v i t .
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC: In other words, you have dealt with how the
– the approach was made to you through Mr Mamabolo and
Mr Mamabolo and what happened at the Maslow Restaurant.
MR MOLEFE: That – that is correct.
10

ADV SONI SC: There is just one thing though that I want to
deal with is the payment schedule that he gave to you and
you found that at page 283.
CHAIRPERSON: 2 – on page?
ADV SONI SC: 283.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k l e t u s j u s t g e t t h a t i n t h e

correct context.

At the meeting that you had with Mr

Mashaba and Ms Matlala you said that Mr Mashaba said he
did not have with him on that occasion information about or
proof of payment – proof of payment into the bank accounts
20

of the individuals concerned, is that right?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i d – d i d – w e r e a r r a n g e m e n t s m a d e
for him to later…
MR MOLEFE:

He did not – he did not – he – that day he

did not have any documents.
Page 184 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a t h a t i s w h a t y o u s a i d j a .
MR MOLEFE: Any documents…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

We r e

arrangements

made

for

him

to

provide such proof at a later date and more information?
MR

MOLEFE:

It

was

made

for

him

to

provide

it

to

Mamabolo.
CHAIRPERSON: Mamabolo.
MR MOLEFE: Who duly collected it and brought it to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay I think that is – let us – then we can
10

move to the schedule ja.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s . N o w i s t h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 2 8 3 t h e

document that he gave to Mr Mamabolo?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC: And…
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry do you say 283?
ADV SONI SC: 283 Chair yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SONI SC: Is that a schedule of payments made – well
that he said he had made?
20

MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC: This is….
CHAIRPERSON:

I

am

sorry

what

I

have

at

283

is

something that has got loan payments.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

At the top is it – are we on the same
Page 185 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
page?
ADV SONI SC: That is – that is – yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright.
ADV SONI SC: Now the Chairperson is raising an important
issue is he at the meeting had said to you that he will send
a schedule of payments he had made.

Because you said,

but look you telling me that you have paid these people but
where is the proof of payment?
MR MOLEFE: Hm that is true, that is what I did. Because I
10

was not going to be able to do anything with what he just
t o l d m e v e r b a l l y.
ADV SONI SC:
but

as

the

Ja.

Now he then sent you this document

Chairperson

points

out

this

does

Schedule of Payments it says Loan Payments.

not

say

Do you see

that?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC: But that is what the document is headed.
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC:
20

What did you understand notwithstanding

what the documents – what the document is headed?
MR MOLEFE:

Well I understood it to be payment and I

understood that the recordings of payments and loaned was
merely for purposes of bookkeeping and auditing.
CHAIRPERSON:

So let us go back one – one step back.

Subsequent to the meeting that you had with Mr Mashaba
Page 186 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
and Ms Matlala, Mr Mamabolo was also in the meeting?
MR MOLEFE: He was in the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:
Mashaba

gave

Ja subsequent to that meeting when Mr
this

schedule

to

Ms

Mamabolo

did

you

understand from Mr Mamabolo that he said this is the
schedule of payments that I promised to give or something
t o t h a t e ff e c t ?
MR MOLEFE:

No when – Chairperson when in a meeting

where I was present and my – and Mr Mashaba was present
10

and Ms Matlala he said that he paid these monies to these
p e o p l e a n d I s a y t h e n a m e s M a r i a G o m e z a n d h e r c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: And Sabelo Nkosi – Nkosi Sabelo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE:

And Knowles Husain. I think Sabelo was

working for Knowles Husain when I tried to remember the
c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MOLEFE: And he was with that firm.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: So I understood it be payments not loans.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y.

So when you got this – these

documents your understanding was this document reflects
the payments that Mashaba had told you about?
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
Page 187 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

Then can I ask you to please look at page

285.
MR MOLEFE: 285?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . W h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry before you go to 285.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Soni do you not want us to – do you

not want him to tell us what schedule – this schedule
10

reflects?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At 283?
ADV

SONI

SC:

I

was

trying

–

but

I

could

do

that

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay well if you are…
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . I t a n s w e r s t h e q u e s t i o n w h e t h e r i t w a s
a loan.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a n s w e r s y o u r q u e s t i o n s o k a y.
ADV SONI SC: Or …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay that is fine. That is fine.
ADV SONI SC: So if you look at 285 what is that document
there Mr Molefe on the face of it?
M R M O L E F E : We l l i t a p p e a r s o b v i o u s l y i t i s a n i n v o i c e .
ADV SONI SC: From whom?
MR MOLEFE:

From – from Similex was a company owned
Page 188 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
by Ms Gomez.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: Maria Gomez.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

If you look just under the – the heading of

that document.
CHAIRPERSON: I think it…
ADV SONI SC: It says directors.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

page?

I am sorry are we looking on the same

On my document – my bundle the name Similex

appears at page 286 and on page 285 which I think is the
page that you referred to Mr Soni unless I have missed
something.
ADV SONI SC: No I..
CHAIRPERSON: I have got consulting engineers.
ADV SONI SC:

No you are absolutely right Chairperson.

Because it is in I guess middle misread the 5 – I misread
the 6 for the 5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
20

A D V S O N I S C : B u t i t i s 2 8 6 I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So the idea is you want him to talk about

page 285?
ADV SONI SC: 286.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 8 6 j a o k a y.
MR MOLEFE: But there is no 285 here.
Page 189 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC: No that is the document.
MR MOLEFE: Oh is this 286 yes.
CHAIRPERSON: 286 has got…
MR MOLEFE: Similex.
CHAIRPERSON: Similex ja.
ADV SONI SC: Sorry Chairperson.
M R M O L E F E : O k a y p a g e 2 8 5 . O h 2 8 5 i s t h e r e . O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O L E F E : O k a y.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Okay we are dealing with 286.

What is the

document at 286?
MR MOLEFE: So this is an invoice.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: It is an invoice Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: From whom to whom?
MR

MOLEFE:

It

is

Consulting Engineers.

an

invoice

from

Similex

to

AM

Now AM Consulting Engineers is a

company of Mr Mashaba.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MOLEFE: That AM stands for Auswell Mashaba.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A n d S i m i l e x w a s ?
M R M O L E F E : Wa s a c o m p a n y o w n e d b y M a r i a G o m e z .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

And you will see that Mr Molefe if you look
Page 190 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
under

Similex

the

name

Similex

it

tells

you

who

the

directors are, you see that? Right at the top.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: And who are the directors?
MR MOLEFE:

The directors are Maria Cruz Gomez and

Domingos Gomez. I think Domingos Gomez is her husband.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

And then we may as well for the sake of

completeness indicate

that

that

invoice

is dated

the

1

January 2014.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And it is invoice number 002/SML/2014

and it is for a total amount of R100 – is that – what – how
much is that? R14 100 000.00 is that correct?
MR MOLEFE: That is so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: Do you see that Mr Molefe?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s I d o C h a i r p e r s o n
20

ADV SONI SC: Now I just want to go back now to page 283
with this…
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you do so Mr Soni, Mr Molefe are

you able to see the description of services in respect of
which this invoice was being issued?

Are you able to read

what the nature of the service – services were – was?
Page 191 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE:

The description of services it says service

rendered IRPTM planning and planning development.
CHAIRPERSON: Development and implementation.
MR MOLEFE: And implementation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e r a t e i s s a y s 3 0 %
o f t h e t o t a l a m o u n t . Yo u a r e a b l e t o s e e t h a t ?
MR MOLEFE: I can see a 30% of the total amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y M r S o n i y o u c a n t h e n p r o c e e d t o
– to 283 I think you said.
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . S o i f y o u l o o k a t t h e s c h e d u l e t h a t w e
looked at there at page 283 you will see that amount has
been reflected in the third line of the payments. Do you see
that?
CHAIRPERSON:

Before that Mr Soni I think let us – let us

get him to first tell us what is reflected in this schedule.
Obviously that will include what you are talking about.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe just to read what is in the schedule
there.
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And dates.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to read Mr Molefe the dates,
the payee and the amount as reflected in this schedule at
page 283?
Page 192 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
MR MOLEFE: Oh 283.
CHAIRPERSON:

Where

the

schedule

of

payment

–

payments appears.
MR MOLEFE: I am going to do so Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is if it is easy otherwise Mr Soni you

can read it in.
MR MOLEFE: The – there is one payee there Similex.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: And 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MOLEFE: Appears 5 times and then of course there are
only the dates written there was on the 6 May 2014, 20 of
January 2014, 10 January 2014.

The other part does not

have the dates.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y M r M o l e f e . L e t

me just quickly read it the way we – I think we should.
According to this schedule on the 6 May 2014 a company
Similex

Pty

Limited

was

paid

an

amount

of

is

that

R9 400 000.00 Mr Soni?
20

ADV SONI SC: It is so Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

And on the 20 January 2014 Similex Pty

Ltd was paid an amount of R14 500 000.00, is that right?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And on the 10 January 2014 Similex Pty

Ltd was paid R14 100 000.00 and no date is given for
Page 193 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
another payment to Similex Pty Limited which amounts to
R90 000.00 and Similex was paid also another amount on a
date that is not given for – it was paid R2 050 000.00, am I
right?
ADV SONI SC: That is so yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e n t h e l a s t t h r e e p a y m e n t s

r e l a t e t o N k o s i ’ s – N k o s i S a b e l o I n c o r p o r a t e d o n t h e 11
April

2013

Nkosi

R14 300 000.00.
10

Sabelo

Incorporated

was

paid

And on the 22 April 2013 Nkosi Sabelo

Incorporated was paid R14 200 000.00 and on the 22 May
2013 another entity or Nkosi Sabelo was paid two times not
three times.

Then on the 22 May 2013 Knowles Husain

Links Incorporated trust account – oh it also says in [Nkosi
Sabelo Incorporated] was paid R10 400 000.00.

And there

is an amount of R79 040 000.00 given there.

And then

there is a handling fee of 10% seems to be given as
R7 904 000.00 and the whole total is R86 944 000.00.
MR MOLEFE: That is correct.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s w e m a y c o n t i n u e .
ADV SONI SC:

So comparing the – the payments or the

invoice against the payment if you look at the invoice at
p a g e 2 8 6 i t i s d a t e d t h e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y, a l t h o u g h i t s a y s 1 t h
instead of saying 1st, first, “st” it says 1th, do you see
that?
Page 194 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

That’s 1st January 2014.

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s . D o y o u s e e t h a t M r M o l e f e ?

ADV SONI SC:

What page are we looking at?

ADV SONI SC:

At page 286.

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

286,

o k a y,

it

says,

okay

yes,

o k a y, t h e 1 t h o f J a n u a r y ?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s s o t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d o n t h a t

or the amount of the invoice was R14 100 000, do you see
that?
10

MR MOLEFE: I can see that.
ADV SONI SC:

If you compare the payments as they

appear on page 283 do you see a similar payment made in
the third line?
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct Chairperson, it is so, a

similar amount.
ADV SONI SC:

And it says that that payment was made

o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y, o n t h a t p a g e , o n p a g e 2 8 3 .
M R M O L E F E : I t d o e s s a y o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y.

20

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

MR MOLEFE:

But this – well you know this one is an

invoice.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

M R M O L E F E : I s s u e d o n t h e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y, n i n e d a y s l a t e r
it got paid.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

No, I am just trying to compare the
Page 195 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
fact that there was an invoice for that amount and payment
for that amount was made?
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

Then if you look at page 287 what is that

document?
MR MOLEFE:

287 the document is again an invoice from

Simulax.
ADV SONI SC:

And addressed to?

MR MOLEFE: It is addressed to A M Consulting Engineers.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s i t i s f r o m t h e s a m e c o m p a n y t o t h e

s a m e c o m p a n y.
M R M O L E F E : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And what is the amount ...[intervenes]
I am sorry Mr Soni, it can’t be from the

s a m e c o m p a n y t o t h e s a m e c o m p a n y.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y, s o r r y C h a i r.
But I know what you mean.

It is from

Simulax to A M Consulting and it is dated 5 January 2014,
it is invoice number 003/SML/N14 and it is for an amount of
20

R16 450 000 and the services are described as service
rendered

by

RPGN

Planning

Development

and

Implementation.
M R M O L E F E : O k a y.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Some of these things are unlikely to be
Page 196 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
disputed so you can move faster on them and you can just
read them to the witness for confirmation.
ADV SONI SC:

As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
Can I then ask you to look again at page

283, the amount paid as reflected on the second line is for
an amount of R14 500 000. It is on the second line now Mr
Molefe.
MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson.
10

ADV SONI SC:

That is not ...[intervenes]

M R M O L E F E : A n d t h a t w a s p a i d o n t h e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y.
ADV SONI SC:

T h a t w a s p a i d o n t h e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y.

So

it is not for the same amount of that invoice, because the
invoice is for R16 450 000, the amount that appears there
is R14 500 00.
MR MOLEFE:

That is correct.

ADV SONI SC:

There is no correlation between those

two?
MR MOLEFE:
20

There is no correlation.

ADV SONI SC:
MR MOLEFE:

Can I ask you then to look at page 290.
290.

CHAIRPERSON:

Before you go to 290, do you want to

confirm how you have told – the witness has told us how
we come to have this schedule of payments.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
Page 197 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
CHAIRPERSON:

It was given to Mr Mamabolo by Mr

Mashaba and Mr Mamabolo gave it to Mr Molefe.

What

about the invoices from Similex, can we know how we
...[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:

I will clarify that.

CHAIRPERSON:

...come to have that.

A D V VA S S O N I C S C :

Mr Molefe you understand the issue

that’s

where

been

raised,

the

invoices

part

of

documents that Mr Mashaba gave to Mr Mamabolo.
10

the
Yo u

see you asked him ...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

No, my recollection is that Mamabolo did

not have the invoices, he had the schedule of payments.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

So where did you get these invoices from?

MR MOLEFE:

I think these invoices came as a result of

the investigations.
ADV SONI SC:

Oh so they were affected from the

...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:
20

Simply from the schedule.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

From the Werksmans investigations.
And so is the proof of payment in regard

to all of them those were not given by Mr Mashaba?

So if

y o u l o o k a t p a g e 2 8 5 f o r e x a m p l e t h e l e t t e r o f a u t h o r i t y,
they were not given by Mr Mashaba to Mr Mamabolo
MR MOLEFE:

285?
Page 198 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Do you think we have a different 285,

why is this 285 – wasn’t 285 something else?
ADV SONI SC:

No it is – you will recall Chairperson I

made a mistake I said 286 was 285.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, a l r i g h t .

185 is a letter from

c o n s u l t i n g e n g i n e e r s a d d r e s s e d t o M r D i n a p a t h e r.
MR MOLEFE:

It is a letter of Mashaba.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

It is the letter from Mashaba, and it says

the subject is letter of authority and it says payment to a
c r e d i t o r, o k a y, s o w h a t w a s t h e q u e s t i o n M r S o n i ?
ADV SONI SC:

I am asking was this document – or sorry

– what is the source of this document, because as I
u n d e r s t a n d i t n o w, a n d I m i s u n d e r s t o o d , t h a t t h i s p a y m e n t
schedule is the only document that Mr Mashaba gave to Mr
Mamabolo or am I wrong?
MR

MOLEFE:

Well

it

could

be

so,

but

when

we

investigate, when we investigate the banks are obliged to
...[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Look this side please.

So when this letter of authority comes from

M r M a s h a b a a n d h e i s t e l l i n g h i s b a n k e r t o p a y, t o p a y M r
Husain ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , h o w d i d h e g e t h o l d o f t h i s l e t t e r,

how does it come to be here?

Did it come through the

Page 199 of 204

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
investigation that Werksmans was ...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

I think it came through the investigation

Chairperson, it certainly was not in the document that
M a s h a b a g a v e , M a s h a b a g a v e m e t h a t s c h e d u l e o n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

Which I gave to the investigators.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SONI SC:

Can I just ask you to look at page 264

which is part of your affidavit. Okay very quickly Mr Molefe
10

at paragraph 9.3 ...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

264?

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , w h i c h i s p a r t o f y o u r r e p l y i n g

affidavit, you say on or about the 2nd of September Mr
Mamabolo collected the documents from Mr Mashaba and
this

is

the

whole

set

of

documents

that

you

say

he

collected.
MR MOLEFE:

The one I took from him personally was the

schedule,

he

but

would

have

been

working

with

the

investigator since we have so some of those documents
20

could have been given directly to the investigators.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t u s d e a l w i t h i t t h i s w a y, o k a y

Mr Molefe in this – in your affidavit in this matter page 264
of the bundle before you, you say at page – at paragraph
9, point 13 that:
“On

or

about

2

September

Page 200 of 204

2015

Mr

Mamabolo

29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
collected the documents from Mr Mashaba at his
office which is situated in Block G, Central Park
400, 16th Road, Midrand.

Mr Mashaba handed over

an envelope containing the following document ...”
Meaning Mr Mashaba handed over to Mr Mamabolo an
envelope containing a number of documents which you
then list there.

Do you recall that to be what happened,

because that’s what you appear to have told the High
Court?
10

MR MOLEFE:

I honestly don’t have a recollection of

seeing every invoice.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h i s ?

The envelope would have been given to my

lawyers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MOLEFE:

And I remember seeing the statement,

because I discussed again after that.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think what may be necessary is that

afterwards Mr Molefe can be given his entire affidavit in
20

this

m a t t e r,

the

replying

affidavit,

so

that

he

can

go

through it properly and refresh his memory on the context,
then he could in due course maybe send a supplementary
affidavit to say after having had – gone back to that
affidavit has his mem ory been refreshed to say this was –
this is correct or has he found that it was not correct.
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29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , n o t h a t i s s o .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MOLEFE:

Would that be fine Mr Molefe?

That will be fine Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV SONI SC:

Now the documents I am just putting to

you generally Mr Molefe, except for the difference between
– you sort of seem to be worried about ...[intervenes]
MR MOLEFE:

No I am worried about the figures, you see

at page ...[intervenes]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Well one second, maybe we – it might be

convenient to take a comfort break and you could have a
look and then we come back, is that fine, but we are at
nearly quarter past five, I am still fine about continuing, if
you are still fine I am sure everybody would be fine.
Would that be fine, would that help if we have a comfort
break?
MR MOLEFE:

It will be fine Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y l e t ’ s t a k e a c o m f o r t b r e a k a n d

then we can come back, we can come back at twenty five
20

past so about ten minutes break.
We adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Yo u r m i c .
Chairperson it seems it has been a long
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29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
day for the witness and I proposed to him that it may be
better if he slept over this issue and we dealt with it first
thing in the morning, which would allow us to deal with it
quicker and let him be more at ease.

Mr Molefe is more

than happy to do that as I understand.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, i s t h a t f i n e M r M o l e f e ?

Is that

fine, yes.
MR MOLEFE:

Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e , t h a t w i l l j u s t g i v e y o u

also time to refresh your memory on the document.

I was

going to say we will start earlier than ten o’clock but we
cannot because of other commitments on my part, so let us
s t a r t a t t e n o ’ c l o c k a s n o r m a l t o m o r r o w.

I guess that we

shouldn’t be long and I don’t want to say we shouldn’t be
long because I thought we would not take the whole day
but

I

think

everything

that

we

had

to

deal

with

was

important so I am not regretting that we have taken the
w h o l e d a y, b u t t o m o r r o w h o w m u c h t i m e d o y o u t h i n k w e
might need?
20

ADV

SONI

SC:

I

don’t

think

more

than

an

hour

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y, n o t h a t i s a l r i g h t .
We will just go factor in the issue that Mr

Molefe raised right at the end ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, the connecting of the dots ja.
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29 JUNE 2020 – DAY 226
ADV SONI SC:

But this part won’t take much, much

l o n g e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja, okay then we are going to adjourn

and resume tomorrow at ten.
We adjourn.
ADV SONI SC: As you please.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 3 0 J U N E 2 0 2 0

Page 204 of 204