C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R 1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N 30 JUNE 2020 D AY 2 2 7 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 info@gautengtranscribers.co.za CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 30 JUNE 2020 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 PROCEEDINGS RESUME ON 30 JUNE 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r S o n i , g o o d m o r n i n g Mr M o l e f e , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V S O N I S C : M o r n i n g C h a i r p e r so n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s w e a r e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a l ri g h t l e t u s c o n t i n u e . The oath t h a t y o u t o o k y e st e r d a y M r M o l e f e w i l l c o n t i n u e t o a p p l y. Thank you. 10 M R M O L E F E : Ye s C h a i r p e r so n . A D V S O N I S C : M r M o l e f e ye st e r d a y … CHAIRPERSON: One second. d i st a n c e i s e n o u g h . I do not know whether this D o y o u w a n t t o si t a l i t t l e f u rt h e r ? Ja, o k a y. I a m – n o I d o n o t t h i n k f u rt h e r t h a t si d e I t h i n k f u rt h e r t h a t w a y. I a m t r yi n g t o m a ke s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s e n o u g h s o ci a l d i st a n c e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e t w e e n u s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s M r S o n i . ADV SONI SC: As it pleases Chairperson. M r Mo l e f e y e st e r d a y w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h yo u r re p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t i n t h e S w i f a m b o m a t t e r, d o yo u r e m e m b e r ? MR MOLEFE: I do remember Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: And you recall that we adjourned on the Page 3 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 b a si s t h a t yo u h a d n o t r e a d t h e d o c u m e n t i n a l o n g t i m e a n d w e w o u l d g i v e y o u a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o l o o k a t i t ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV SONI SC: N o w h a v e y o u h a d a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o l o o k a t y o u r r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t ? MR MOLEFE: I did Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: A n d a s f a r a s y o u r re c o l l e ct i o n n o w g o e s i s w h a t i s co n t a i n e d i n t h e r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t w h a t h a p p e n e d ? 10 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: I confirm. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V S O N I S C : S o t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n d i c a t i o n that not all the documents were contained in the envelope g i v e n t o M r M a m a b o l o y o u c o n f i rm t h a t t h a t – t h a t t h e d o cu m e n t s t h a t y o u n a m e i n y o u r a ff i d a vi t w e re i n f a ct c o n t a i n e d i n t h a t e n ve l o p e ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . 20 ADV SONI SC: C a n I a s k, d i d yo u ch e c k t h a t w i t h M r M a m a b o l o b e t w e e n y e st e r d a y a n d t o d a y ? MR MOLEFE: I did do so Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: O k a y ri g h t . you also read M r M a s h a b a ’s re s p o n s e t o N o w I j u st w a n t t o a s k y o u d i d a ff i d a vi t ? Page 4 of 203 y o u r re p l yi n g 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: I did Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: And when one looks at it is there much d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n y o u r v e r si o n a n d h i s ve r si o n ? MR MOLEFE: T h e r e i s v e r y l i t t l e d i ff e re n c e . I think he re f e r s t o p a r a g r a p h 9 – 9 . 4 a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 0 w h e r e h e sa y s h e d i sa g r e e s. But overall, he agrees with the content of the a ff i d a vi t a n d t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t h e s a y s h e d i s a g re e s w i t h m e . I re f u t e d t h a t b e c a u se I b a s e d m y a ff i d a vi t o n t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t h e g a ve t o M r Ma m a b o l o i n a n e n ve l o p e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ju st o n e s e c o n d . I j u st w a n t t o c h e c k m a y b e b o t h yo u M r S o n i a n d M r M o l e f e yo u m i g h t j u st ra i se your voices a bit. A D V S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: I w a n t t o c h e c k w i t h t h e t ra n s c ri b e r s. you able to hear everybody? Are Oh, they give a thumbs up so t h e y c a n h e a r yo u b e t t e r t h a n I c a n h e a r yo u . B u t I t h i n k l e t us try and raise our voices a little bit ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . 20 A D V S O N I S C : N o w j u st – j u st f o r t h e r e c o r d M r M o l e f e c a n I ask you to turn to page 327 which is where his response st a rt s. CHAIRPERSON: J u st p l a ce o n r e c o r d a g a i n w h a t d o c u – w h a t b u n d l e w e a r e st i l l o n . A D V S O N I S C : B u n d l e D E xh i b i t S S 6 . Page 5 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y yo u a re s p e a k i n g a w a y f r o m t h e m i cr o p h o n e . A D V S O N I S C : B u n d l e D E xh i b i t S S 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a n d w h a t p a g e d o yo u … ADV SONI SC: Page 327. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S O N I S C : S o I j u st l o o k a t t h e a r e a s o f d i ff e r e n c e v e r y q u i c kl y M r M o l e f e . S o i f y o u l o o k a t w h a t w a s c ru c i a l a b o u t y o u r e vi d e n ce i s t h e m e e t i n g a n d a t p a ra g r a p h 6 5 o f h i s 10 a ff i d a vi t i n r e s p o n s e t o p a ra g r a p h 9 . 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a vi t h e s a y s: “I a d m i t t h a t a m e e t i n g t o o k p l a ce b e t w e e n m e a n d M r Mo l e f e a t t h e M a s l o w H o t e l i n S a n d t o n o n t h e 3 1 A u g u st 2 0 1 5 . ” Yo u c o n f i r m t h a t ? MR MOLEFE: I confirm it yes – confirm it Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: A n d – a n d t h e n i n f a ct h e h a r d l y d i s p u t e s a n yt h i n g i n p a rt i c u l a r h e sa y s a t p a ra g r a p h 7 1 o f h i s a ff i d a vi t t h a t yo u d i d a s k h i m a b o u t t h e c o n t ri b u t i o n s b u t h e s a y s i t was not in relation to Swifambo he says it was in relation to 20 h i s c o n t ri b u t i o n s t o t h e A N C . What do you say about that M r. MR MOLEFE: Mashaba. I d e n y t h a t C h a i r p e r so n . I did not know Mr A t t h a t st a g e I d i d n o t e ve n k n o w i f h e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C a n d I w o u l d n o t h a ve a s k e d h i m i f h e w a s m a ki n g a co n t ri b u t i o n t o t h e A N C . Page 6 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: And what was the purpose of… CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Soni. S h o u l d w e n o t j u st h a ve M a s h a b a ’s p a r a g ra p h 7 1 re a d f i r st t o h e a r w h a t h e s a y s. A D V S O N I S C : A b s o l u t e l y. CHAIRPERSON: And then Mr Molefe can respond to that version. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 10 I think 72, 73 I think – you would know better but I see that he – he seems to talk about what t ra n s p i r e d i n t h a t m e e t i n g i n t h o s e p a r a g ra p h s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u ca n t a k e t h e – t h e p o i n t s p o i n t b y point. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. S o l e t u s j u st t o p u t i n c o n t e xt M r Molefe if you go to page – keep your finger on page 328 but if you go to page 263 that is where you make the allegation a b o u t a s ki n g h i m f o r t h e p r o o f o f t h e d o c u – f o r t h e p r o o f o f t h e c o n t ri b u t i o n s. 20 MR MOLEFE: Page 20? ADV SONI SC: Page 263. MR MOLEFE: 263. CHAIRPERSON: What – what of course can be done Mr S o n i e v e n w i t h o u t n e c e s s a ri l y re a d i n g t h e p a r a g r a p h s e x c e p t o r a d vi se M r M o l e f e m i g h t w i s h t o re f r e s h h i s m e m o r y i s t o Page 7 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 p u t t o h i m w h a t h i s v e r si o n … A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: M r M o l e f e ’s ve r si o n w a s a n d h o w M r Mashaba responds to that point by point and then he can deal with them. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Point by point. That is another way but I w i l l l e a v e i t t o y o u h o w yo u d e a l w i t h i t j a . ADV SONI SC: As it pleases Chairperson. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Whichever is convenient. ADV SONI SC: Now if you look at from paragraph 9.6 on page 262 to 9.12 on page 263 this is where Mr Mashaba is a s ki n g yo u for assurances that there will not be any c o n se q u e n c e s f o r h i m , w o u l d t h a t b e c o r r e ct ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V S O N I S C : A n d y o u r r e s p o n se t o h i m w h e n h e a s k e d f o r t h o se – f o r t h o se a s s u r a n c e s w a s w h a t ? T h a t y o u w o u l d l i k e p r o o f t h a t t h o s e p a ym e n t s w e r e m a d e . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct b u t … 20 ADV SONI SC: N o w i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n o n t h e 3 1 A u g u st a t M a s l o w w h a t w a s t h e p r o o f i n r e l a t i o n t o ? M R M O L E F E : I n re l a t i o n t o t h e p a y m e n t ? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. M R M O L E F E : We l l t h e p ro o f w a s i n r e l a t i o n t o w h a t h e s a i d w h e r e m o n i e s h e w a s r e q u e st e d t o p a y t o M s M a ri a G o m e s. Page 8 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: And the monies that he said were through her company called – which c o m p a n y c a l l e d S i m i l e x. was paid into the account A co u p l e o f i n st a l m e n t s. a And the m o n e y t h a t w a s p a i d t o M r N k o si S a b e l o … ADV SONI SC: S o rr y I j u st w a n t t o g e t t h e c o n t e x t a g a i n . That was – he needed to pay that as a result of what? CHAIRPERSON: O r m a yb e – m a y b e l e t m e p u t i t d i ff e r e n t l y b e ca u s e I t h i n k I k n o w w h a t M r S o n i i s l o o ki n g f o r – t h i s 10 might help. T h e – a s y o u u n d e r st o o d t h e p o s i t i o n a t t h e meeting the payments that he said he had made to Similex a n d t o M r N k o si S a b e l o o r h i s c o m p a n y w e r e – w a s h e t a l ki n g a b o u t p a y m e n t s t h a t h e w a s m a ki n g t o S i m i l e x a n d t o M r – a n d t o N k o si S a b e l o I n c o r p o r a t e d p e r s o n a l l y o r w a s h e t a l ki n g a b o u t p a y m e n t s t h a t h e w a s m a ki n g o n b e h a l f o f s o m e b o d y e l se o r o n b e h a l f o f s o m e e n t i t y ? MR MOLEFE: H e w a s n o t – t h e c o n t e xt w a s t h a t h e – h e s a i d t h a t h e w a s a s k e d b y M s G o m e s, M a ri a G o m e s t o p a y money into those accounts and the money was linked to the 20 money that PRASA would pay to Swifambo but she said that t h a t m o n e y – s h e n e e d e d t h a t m o n e y f o r w h a t s h e ca l l e d t h e m o v e m e n t . S o t h a t w a s t h e c o n t e xt . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. ADV SONI SC: So it was the money that Swifambo was re c e i vi n g a s a r e s u l t o f i t s c o n t r a c t w i t h P R A S A a n d i t w a s Page 9 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 re c e i vi n g t h a t m o n e y f r o m P R A S A ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – y e s. MR MOLEFE: S h e h a d s a i d e a rl i e r t h a t t h i s c o n t ra ct i s g o i n g – i t i s a c o n t r a ct a m o u n t i n g t o b i l l i o n s. I t sh o u l d n o t b e d i ff i c u l t f o r y o u t o g i v e 1 0 % o f t h a t t o t h e m o ve m e n t . A n d I m u st h a st e n t o s a y t h a t I d o n o t k n o w M s G o m e s m y s e l f . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h i s i s w h a t w a s r e l a y e d t o y o u b y M r Mashaba at that meeting. 10 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s h a vi n g b e e n s a i d t o h i m b y M s G o m e s. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. A n d d u ri n g t h e m e e t i n g w a s t h e re a c o m m o n u n d e r st a n d i n g b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r M a s h a b a a s t o w h a t t h e re f e r e n c e t o t h e m o v e m e n t w a s ? MR MOLEFE: T h e – t h e c o m m o n u n d e r st a n d i n g – w e l l I t h i n k h e u n d e r st o o d t h a t a s w e l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: 20 B u t t h e c o m m o n u n d e r st a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e m o v e m e n t w a s a n d i s n o w i s t h e A f r i c a n N a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s. O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: A l ri g h t n o w – n o w i t i s t h a t c o n t e xt t h a t w e look at what Mr Mashaba says at page 328 paragraph 71 and c a n y o u j u st sa y m o re o r l e s s w e l l I m e a n ca n y o u j u st paraphrase what he says in relation to the payment at Page 10 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 p a r a g ra p h 7 1 . I f y o u w a n t y o u c a n j u st re a d i t i n t o t h e re c o r d . MR MOLEFE: That is? ADV SONI SC: At page 328 paragraph 71. CHAIRPERSON: Is the lighting – is the lighting fine for re a d i n g p u r p o se s t h e r e M r M o l e f e ? M R M O L E F E : I t i s o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: It is fine. MR MOLEFE: It is fine Chairperson. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t . M R M O L E F E : H e s a y s: “A t t h e m e e t i n g o n ” T h a t i s p a r a g ra p h 7 1 h e s a y s: “A t t h e m e e t i n g ” M r M a s h a b a s a y s: “A t t h e m e e t i n g o n 3 1 A u g u st 2 0 1 5 M r M o l e f e a s k e d m e w h e t h e r I su p p o rt e d t h e A N C f i n a n c i a l . ” ADV SONI SC: N o w j u st – i f y o u c o u l d j u st st o p t h e re . Did y o u e v e r a s k t h a t q u e st i o n ? 20 M R M O L E F E : I d i d n o t a s k t h a t q u e st i o n . ADV SONI SC: T h e c o n t e xt i n w h i c h t h i s i n t e r a ct i o n t o o k place on the 31st was that he had called for the meeting – Mr Mashaba had called for the meeting. MR MOLEFE: about how he He had called for the meeting and it was could p re s e r v e the Page 11 of 203 assets that he had 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 a c c u m u l a t e d b e f o re h e b e ca m e p a rt o f t h e S w i f a m b o t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w i t h re f e r e n c e t o t h a t se n t e n c e i n t h a t p a r a g ra p h i s y o u r v e r si o n t h a t y o u n e ve r a s k e d t h i s q u e st i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o h i m p e r s o n a l l y o r i s t h e p o si t i o n t h a t y o u n e ve r e v e n a s ke d i t i n r e l a t i o n t o S w i f a m b o i n c a s e y o u – y o u s a i d y o u m e a n i n g S w i f a m b o b e c a u s e h e w a s p a rt o f S w i f a m b o a n d h e t h o u g h t t h a t yo u m e a n t h i m p e r s o n a l l y. M R M O L E F E : I d i d n o t a s k t h e q u e st i o n C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R M O L E F E : To h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n … [ i n t e r v e n e s] . MR MOLEFE: O r i n t h e c o n t e xt o f h i m b e i n g t h e C h a i r m a n of Swifambo. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M O L E F E : I d i d n o t a s k. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: S o rr y t h e – w h i l e o n t h a t p o i n t . At the m e e t i n g d i d y o u k n o w o r b e f o re t h e m e e t i n g d i d y o u k n o w t h a t h e h a d m a d e c o n t ri b u t i o n s t o t h e A N C ? 20 MR MOLEFE: I d i d n o t k n o w t h a t h e m a d e a n y c o n t ri b u t i o n t o t h e A N C C h a i r p e r s o n . A n d I s h o u l d j u st d r a w t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e c o m m i s si o n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h a t m e e t i n g w a s a s k e d f o r b y h i m a n d I – I w a s l i st e n i n g t o h i m . He is the f i r st one who told us of i n d i vi d u a l s and or companies that he paid money to which then gave rise to me Page 12 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s a yi n g b u t w e w o u l d n e e d t o s e e t h e r e co r d s o f t h o s e p a ym e n t s. A D V S O N I S C : W h e n h e – o h s o rr y c a r r y o n . H e t h e n s a y s I d i d n o t t h i n k. MR MOLEFE: H e s a y s, I d i d n o t t h i n k I a m n o w c o n t i n u i n g t h a t p a ra g r a p h C h a i r p e r so n t h a t i s p a r a g r a p h 7 1 a n d h e s a y s: “I d i d n o t t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n yt h i n g u n t o w a r d a b o u t h i s l i n e o f q u e st i o n i n g a s I h a v e M r M o l e f e i n a h i g h r e g a r d a n d 10 u n d e r st o o d h i m t o b e a l o y a l r e s p e ct e d s e n i o r a m e m b e r o f the ANC. had no To m y m i n d t h e d i s c u s si o n i n r e sp e ct o f t h e A N C relevance to the issues between PRASA and Swifambo.” A D V S O N I S C : W h a t i s y o u r r e a ct i o n t o t h a t ? M R M O L E F E : N o h e i s – h e i s c o rr e ct b e c a u s e a t t h a t st a g e t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n f o r – f o r u s t o s p e cu l a t e a b o u t w h a t t h e re l a t i o n s h i p co u l d h a v e b e e n b e t w e e n S w i f a m b o a n d t h e ANC. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S o n i . 20 ADV SONI SC: But he said it had no relevance. M R M O L E F E : H e s a y s i t h a d n o r e l e v a n c e a n d h e i s c o r r e ct . I t h a d n o r e l e v a n c e a t t h a t st a g e . A D V S O N I S C : We l l I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u se … MR MOLEFE: W h a t I a m sa yi n g i s t h a t I – f i r st l y I d i d n o t ask him. Page 13 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: S o i t d i d n o t a ri s e b u t I a l so a g r e e w i t h h i m that the meeting was not about the relationship between Swifambo and the ANC. But neither was it about relationship between Swifambo and PRASA. I t w a s a b o u t h i s c o n ce r n s re g a r d i n g w h a t t h e i m p l i c a t i o n s o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t P R A S A w a s c o n d u ct i n g m i g h t h a v e o n h i m a s a p e r s o n a n d the assets that he had accumulated. C H A I R P E R S O N : Wo u l d h e … 10 MR MOLEFE: Before he joined Swifambo. CHAIRPERSON: Wo u l d t h e – w o u l d t h e p o si t i o n b e t h a t t h e re l e v a n c e o f t h e – o f a n y r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t t h e A N C m a y h a v e h a d w i t h S w i f a m b o w o u l d t h e p o si t i o n b e t h a t t h a t re l e v a n ce i f a n y w o u l d h a v e a r i se n o n c e h e s a i d t h a t t h e p a y m e n t s t h a t he – that Swifambo had made to Ms Gomes were for the movement? I s t h a t w h e n t h e re l e v a n c e o f t h e A N C w o u l d h a ve a ri s e n ? M R M O L E F E : C h a i rp e r s o n w i t h o u t a n y f u rt h e r e vi d e n c e t h a t monies given to Ms Gomes through – to the ANC. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: I do not know how one could – well it will be t h e r e l e v a n c e i n t h e f a ct t h a t s h e m e n t i o n e d – h e m e n t i o n e d the movement. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e l l w h a t I m e a n i s m y e x p e ct a t i o n i s t h a t i f yo u a r e i n a m e e t i n g su c h a s t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u h a d Page 14 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 w i t h M r M a s h a b a o n t h a t d a y w h e re h e w a s c o m i n g t o I d o n o t kn o w w h e t h e r p l e a d i s t h e c o rr e ct w o rd b u t t o t a l k t o y o u t o s a y p l e a s e d o n o t t o u c h m y a s s e t s. for these assets without Swifambo I h a v e w o r k e d h a rd you know whatever i n v e st i g a t i o n i s d o n e . I f i n t h a t c o n t e xt a n d i n t h e c o n t e xt o f the f a ct that you and your board w e re co n d u ct i n g i n v e st i g a t i o n s i n t o a l l e g a t i o n s o f c o r r u p t i o n a t P R A S A i f s o m e b o d y s a i d p a rt o f t h e m o n e y t h a t i s p a i d t o S w i f a m b o i s a ct u a l l y g o i n g t o t h e A N C t h e r e m i g h t b e n o p r o o f a t t h a t 10 st a g e b u t m y e x p e ct a t i o n i s t h a t t h a t w o u l d r a i s e – t h a t w o u l d m a k e t h e A N C a n d i t s r e l a t i o n sh i p c a l l i t a l l e g e d re l a t i o n s h i p e i t h e r w i t h M s G o m e s o r w i t h S w i f a m b o r e l e v a n t b e ca u s e you would be sa yi n g , well is it p o s si b l e that p r o c e e d s o f c o r r u p t i o n a r e g o i n g t o m y m o ve m e n t . T h a t t h e y m a y b e g o i n g t o t h e g o v e rn i n g p a rt y a n d t h e re f o r e y o u m i g h t s a y, w e l l I w a n t p ro o f o f t h a t . I want – I want to see all of t h o se t h i n g s b e c a u s e m a y b e t h e A N C d o e s n o t k n o w t h a t t h i s m o n e y c o m e s f r o m co r r u p t i o n . Maybe it does know but this i s – t h i s w o u l d b e a se ri o u s a l l e g a t i o n i f s o m e b o d y m a k e s i t . 20 T h a t i s m y – m y t h i n ki n g o f w h a t yo u w o u l d t h i n k. MR MOLEFE: C h a i rp e r s o n a t t h a t m e e t i n g I d o n o t k n o w M r M a s h a b a . A t b e st t h a t w o u l d si m p l y sa y w h a t w a s y o u r st a t e of mind. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R M O L E F E : We s h o u l d h a v e e xi s t e d i n m i n d t h a t w e l l p a rt Page 15 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 o f t h e a d d i t i o n a l e vi d e n ce . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: That we would I want to see. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: W o u l d p r o b a b l y p r o v e p e a ce o r d e r. But it is n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t I sa i d t o h i m . I w a n t e vi d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: To s e e w h e t h e r t h o s e m o n i e s w e n t t o t h e ANC. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R M O L E F E : B u t n a t u r a l l y m y st a t e o f m i n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: I would have been concerned. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: T h e r e a re t w o i s s u e s M r M o l e f e . O n e i s h e c a l l s t h e m e e t i n g t o s a y, p l e a s e d o n o t t a ke a w a y m y a s s e t s b e ca u s e y o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n s w i l l sh o w I g a ve c e rt a i n m o n i e s t o a M s G o m e s. Th a t w a s p a rt o f t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e meeting. 20 MR MOLEFE: T h a t i s – w e l l – w e l l – w e l l o n ce h e st a rt e d t a l ki n g a b o u t p e o p l e , h e p a i d m o n i e s t o cl e a rl y h i s f e a r w a s t h a t h e w o u l d b e i m p l i ca t e d i n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: M r M o l e f e I a m j u st t r yi n g t o u n d e r st a n d y o u r st a t e o f m i n d . Yo u f i l e y o u r f o u n d i n g a ff i d a vi t i n t h e Page 16 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 S w i f a m b o m a t t e r i n w h i c h y o u s a y t h e S w i f a m b o c o n t r a ct w a s t a i n t e d b y co r ru p t i o n . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . A D V S O N I S C : R i g h t . I n v e st i g a t i o n s a r e d o n e a n d t h e n y o u d i s c o v e r c e rt a i n t h i n g s b u t Mr M a s h a b a i n t h e m e a n t i m e c o m e s t o yo u a n d s a y s, l o o k m a n y o u m a y d i s co v e r c e rt a i n t h i n g s, yo u may discover these p a ym e n t s, discover them, I want to reveal them to you. b e f o re yo u Is that the sequence of events? 10 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . T h a t i s c o r r e ct . A D V S O N I S C : N o w w h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i s sa yi n g i s w h e n he says these payments were made to Ms Gomes to give to t h e m o v e m e n t t h a t i s w h a t y o u m u s t h a v e u n d e r st o o d . Th a t t h e p a ym e n t s w e m a d e t o M s G o m e s a l l e g e d l y t o b e p a i d t o the movement. MR MOLEFE: T h a t i s co r r e ct . B u t – b u t t h a t i s i n m y st a t e of mind that is not what I asked him. CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no I think… A D V S O N I S C : O h y e s, n o , n o t h a t i s … . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e u n d e r st a n d t h a t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d i d n o t a s k h i m . I t h i n k t h e q u e st i o n si m p l y a r o se b e c a u se t h e r e w a s t h e q u e st i o n o f – b e ca u s e y o u s a i d y o u a g r e e d w i t h M r M a s h a b a ’s st a t e m e n t t h a t t h e re l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n I t h i n k e i t h e r S w i f a m b o o r M s G o m e s Page 17 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 w a s i r re l e v a n t a n d y o u s a i d y o u a g re e t h a t a t t h a t st a g e t h a t w a s t h e t e r m y o u u s e d i t w a s i r re l e v a n t a n d c e rt a i n l y I t h o u g h t t h a t w h a t yo u m e a n t w a s a t a c e rt a i n st a g e I h a d n o information about the ANC possibly getting – getting paid or a l l e g e d l y g e t t i n g p a i d o u t o f t h i s t h e r e f o r e i t w a s i r re l e v a n t . B u t t h e n I w a s t h i n ki n g t h a t b a se d o n t h e f a ct t h a t y o u r e vi d e n c e i s t h a t a t t h e s a m e s t a g e i n t h e m e e t i n g Mr M a s h a b a d i d sa y M s G o m e s s a i d , t h e se p a y m e n t s t o b e p a i d t o h e r c o m p a n y w e re f o r t h e m o v e m e n t . 10 I then thought at t h a t st a g e I w o u l d n o t e x p e ct y o u t o t h i n k t h a t a l l e g a t i o n i s i rr e l e v a n t . I w o u l d e x p e ct t h a t y o u w o u l d sa y, w e l l i f w h a t y o u a r e t e l l i n g m e i s co r re ct t h e n I w i l l b e v e r y c o n c e rn e d s o I w o u l d t h e r e f o r e w a i t t o s e e w h a t p r o o f t h e r e i s b e c a u se m y e x p e ct a t i o n i s c e r t a i n l y t h a t i f yo u w e re t o b e p r e s e n t e d w i t h p r o o f t h a t y o u r m o v e m e n t i s b e i n g g i v e n s h a l l I c a l l i t “d i rt y m o n e y ” f ro m c o r r u p t i o n t h a t i s n o t – t h a t i s n o t w h a t y o u w o u l d l i k e y o u r m o v e m e n t t o – t h a t i s n o t t h e ki n d o f m o n e y y o u w o u l d l i k e i t t o r e c e i v e . A n d t h a t i s t h e ki n d o f t h i n g t h a t i f s o m e b o d y m a k e s a n a l l e g a t i o n l i k e t h a t t h a t yo u w o u l d l i k e 20 t o s e e t h e r e i s p ro o f o f i t . coming from. So I think that is where I was B u t w h e n y o u s a i d a t t h a t st a g e yo u b e c a m e c o n ce r n e d b u t t h e re w a s n o p r o o f , I w a s h a p p y t o – t o l e a v e it at that. B u t I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n t h e sa m e page. MR MOLEFE: T h e – I - m a y b e I a m st ru g g l i n g t o a r t i c u l a t e Page 18 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 m y se l f . CHAIRPERSON: If I – if I knew another language that you k n e w I w o u l d s a y s p e a k i t b u t I a m l i m i t e d i n m y l a n g u a g e s. MR MOLEFE: Ja, ja. Chair – Chairperson the – perhaps to s a y t h a t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o re l e v a n c e m a y n o t b e c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: Accurate. MR MOLEFE: But to say that although the purpose of the meeting had to do with his concerns about his personal 10 a s s e t s. O n c e h e b r o u g h t i n t h e q u e st i o n o f p a yi n g m o n i e s t o people who said that they need the money on behalf of the movement it raises an i m p o rt a n t q u e st i o n of potential involvement of the movement of the ANC in matters that a ff e ct h i m , S w i f a m b o a n d M s G o m e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. N o I t h i n k t h a t f i t s i n w i t h w h a t I e x p e ct e d w o u l d b e t h e p o si t i o n . J a , j a , o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: b a c kd r o p that A n d – a n d M r M o l e f e i t c o m e s a g a i n st t h e you had a l re a d y alleged in the founding a ff i d a vi t t h a t t h e S w i f a m b o c o n t ra c t w a s t a i n t e d . 20 M R M O L E F E : Ye s S i r. A D V S O N I S C : A n d s o t h i s j u st w a s i n a s e n s e p r o o f o f t h e n a t u r e o f t h e t e n si o n . Not only was it an irrational uh-uh, c o n t r a ct f o r. . . f o r P R A S A m a y b e i n t e rl i n k e d t o b u t w e a l s o know now that funds were being diverted to somebody else w h i c h t h e n t u r n e d o u t t o b e a l l e g e d l y t h e m o v e m e n t . Wo u l d Page 19 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 that be accurate? MR MOLEFE: That... that is correct. A D V S O N I S C : I n t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r. . . I a m s o rr y. F o r w h a t i t i s w o rt h u h , I j u st w a n t t o s a y t h a t u h , o f co u r s e , a t t h i s st a g e u h , w e h a v e no proof that money from Swifambo was paid to the ANC. We . . . w e . . . w e . . . c e rt a i n l y, I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n yt h i n g . I do not know if there are something in the d o cu m e n t s t h a t I h a ve n o t s e e n y e t u h , b u t i f a n yb o d y m a k e s 10 s u c h a n a l l e g a t i o n , i t w o u l d b e s u c h a s e ri o u s a l l e g a t i o n b e ca u s e . . . N o t o n l y b e c a u s e i t w o u l d b e w r o n g f o r a n y p a rt y b u t t o . . . t o . . . t o . . . t o r e c e i v e su c h m o n i e s k n o w i n g l y t h a t . . . [ l a u g h s] m a yb e I s h o u l d e m p h a si s e i t , kn o w i n g l y k n o w i n g w h e r e t h e y w e r e c o m i n g f ro m . B u t i t w o u l d b e m u c h m o r e s e ri o u s w h e n t h a t p a rt y i s t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y b e c a u se p a rt o f t h e q u e st i o n s t h a t m a n y S o u t h A f ri c a n s, I t h i n k, a s k w h e n t h e y l o o k a t t h e l e v e l s o f corruption 20 in our c o u n t r y, p a rt i c u l a rl y within the public s e r v i ce , t h e i s S O E ’s. P a rt o f t h e q u e st i o n t h a t t h e y s h o u l d b e a s ki n g o r a r e a s ki n g i s. “ w h o w e r e t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e s u p p o s e d t o m a k e sure that this does not happen both within government and o u t si d e o ff o f g o v e r n m e n t w i t h i n a n e x e c u t i ve a n d o u t si d e o f the executive?” Page 20 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A n d u h . . . a n d u h , a n d u h , t h e q u e st i o n a ri se s w h e t h e r some of those people or some of those bodies and o r g a n i s a t i o n s t u r n e d a b l i n d e y e b e c a u se t h e y m a y h a v e been benefiting. So those... those q u e st i o n s in this ki n d of i n v e st i g a t i o n t h a t t h e C o m m i s si o n i s d o i n g , w e h a v e g o t t o k e e p o u r m i n d s o p e n t o . . . t o c h e c k. i s i t p o s si b l e t h a t h e r e , s o a n d so co u l d h a v e d o n e something but did not do something because uh, he or she 10 o r h i s o r h e r o r g a n i s a t i o n w a s b e n e f i t i n g a l l b e ca u s e i t w a s f ri e n d s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d a n d t h e r e f o r e a ct i o n w a s n o t taken. We h a v e t o k e e p o u r m i n d s q u i t e o p e n f o r t h a t . So b u t I t h o u g h t I m u st j u st m e n t i o n t h a t a t t h i s st a g e I a m n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e r e i s a n y e vi d e n ce t o . . . t o t h a t e ff e ct b u t o n c e a n a l l e g a t i o n i s m a d e i t i s v e r y i m p o rt a n t t h a t w e . . . w e . . . w e probe. P a rt i c u l a rl y b e c a u s e t h e a l l e g a t i o n s o f co r r u p t i o n a t PRASA went on for many years without one seeing any uh, 20 u m . . . w i t h o u t . . . w i t h o u t o n e se e i n g t h e l e v e l s g o i n g d o w n. Um, and of course, the evidence that you have given M r M o l e f e , i s ve r y cl e a r t h a t w h e n y o u r b o a r d st a rt s t o d e a l w i t h t h i s i s s u e o f co r ru p t i o n . . . I t h i n k y o u r e vi d e n c e s a y s, “ w e w e r e a t t a c k e d ”. “ We w e re a t t a c k e d . We d i d n o t g e t s u p p o rt f ro m Page 21 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 q u a rt e r s w h e r e w e e x p e ct e d w e w o u l d g e t s u p p o rt . We w e r e being attacked. We w e re a t t a c k e d f o r d o i n g t h e ri g h t t h i n g a n d u l t i m a t e l y w e w e re ki c k e d o u t ”. And uh... well, other people will come and give e vi d e n c e a n d w e w a n t t o k n o w w h e t h e r w h a t t h e y h a v e t o s a y a b o u t t h i s b e c a u se i n d e e d, i f t h i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d i t i s t e r ri b l e b u t t h e y m u st c o m e g i ve e vi d e n ce a n d s a y w h e t h e r t h e y d e n y w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g . T h a t i n t h e e n d , i f . . . w h e n I m a k e m y f i n d i n g s, I f i n d 10 t h a t t h i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d , y o u a r e ri g h t , i t i s t e r ri b l e . s o m e t h i n g ve r y s e r i o u s. O k a y t h a n k yo u . It is Yo u w a n t t o s a y something? MR MOLEFE: M a y b e c o u n s e l u h , i f i t e xi st s a n y w a y i n t h e u h , t h e d o cu m e n t , y o u w i l l r e f e r m e u h , t o t h a t . U h , b u t I a g r e e w i t h c o u n s e l t h a t t h e m e e t i n g t a k e s p l a c e a g a i n st t h e b a c kd r o p o ff u h , i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e d e m o n st r a t i n g t h a t Swifambo was tainted. A n d t h a t i s d e t a i l e d i n h o w p r o ce s s w a s u n d e rt a k e n . T h e r o l l o ff M r Mt i m ku l u d e si g n i n g u h , t h e R F P ’s i n a m a n n e r 20 t h a t f a v o u r s. T h e i r p a rt i c u l a r p a rt y ch a n g e s f r o m w h a t w a s o r i g i n a l l y u h , s u p p o se d t o b e a l e a s e a rr a n g e m e n t u h , t o b e c o m i n g n o w a l e a s e a n d o u t ri g h t p a t c h e s b u t o n l y t h a t d o n e by Swifambo. S o . . . s o . . . so t h a t . . . t h a t . . . t h a t i s c o r r e ct h e r e . h a ve n o r e c o l l e ct i o n o f u h , m y e v i d e n ce . Page 22 of 203 I U m , a s st a t i n g 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 c a t e g o ri c a l l y t h a t u h , t h e A N C r e c e i v e d m o n e y. U h , w h e t h e r i t i s i n m y f o u n d i n g a ff i d a vi t i n t h a t m a t t e r o r i n p u b l i c st a t e m e n t s t h a t I m a d e . Every time I s p o ke a b o u t i t , w a s i n t h e co n t e xt o f w h a t M r M a s h a b a s a i d t o u s. S o i n f a i r n e s s t o t h e A N C , I d o n o t h a v e e vi d e n c e t h a t s a y s, “ y o u g o t t h a t m o n e y ”. CHAIRPERSON: e m p h a si si n g . Ye s, y e s. Now that is what I was also T h a t a t t h i s st a g e , I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y e vi d e n c e t h a t t h e A N C g o t m o n e y f r o m u h , S w i f a m b o . 10 U h , I h a v e o n l y h e a r d e vi d e n c e o f w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g M r M a s h a b a t o l d y o u a b o u t w h a t h i s co m m e r c e s a i d . S o t h a t i s h o w f a r i t g o e s. B u t I w a s si m p l y sa yi n g , y o u k n o w, o n e n e e d s t o h a ve a l o o k. O n e n e e d s t o . . . t o p ro b e . We h a v e g o t t o d o t h e . . . t h e . . . t h e j o b t h a t w e h a ve b e e n a s ke d t o d o p r o p e rl y. Thank you. ADV SONI SC: a r e q u i t e ri g h t . T h a n k s, C h a i r p e r s o n . Mr Molefe, uh, you U h , yo u n e v e r s a i d t h a t y o u h a v e t h e p r o o f . Yo u h a v e m e r e l y s a i d , t h a t t h e s e w e r e t h e r e p o rt s y o u h a v e 20 re c e i v e d a n d . . . a n d . . . a n d t h a t o n e a c c e p t . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: B u t . . . b u t I j u st w a n t t o m a k e t h i s p o i n t t h o u g h . I f w e g o t o p a ra g r a p h 7 2 o f u h , t h e r e s p o n s e t o y o u r re p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t . Mr M a s h a b a . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: At what page? Page 23 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A D V S O N I S C : S o r r y. A t p a g e 3 2 9 C h a i r p e r so n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y. P a ra g r a p h 7 2 . ADV SONI SC: Ye s. N o w, h e u h , h e s a y s. . . o h , s o r r y. At t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 7 1 , h e s a y s: “ To my knowledge, no donations w e re made by Swifambo to the ANC.” T h a t i s. . . t h a t i s t h e p o i n t h e m a k e s . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: 10 A n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e a ff i d a vi t a s a w h o l e a n d y o u h a v e , y o u se e t h a t i s t h e c o n st a n t t h e m e t h a t , “ y e s, I m a d e t h e p a ym e n t s. Swifambo. I r e ce i ve d t h e p a ym e n t s o n b e h a l f o f I m a d e p a ym e n t s t o m y o w n c o m p a n y. ” That is t h e c r u st o f M r M a s h a b a ’s e vi d e n c e . M R M O L E F E : U h , t h a t i s c o rr e ct . ADV SONI SC: Ye s. A n d t h a t i s a l l w e h a ve t o g o o n a n . . . a n d w e m u st a c c e p t t h a t a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n s o . . . s o u h , cl e a rl y p o i n t e d o u t t h a t t h a t i s t h e o n l y l i n k w e h a v e , h i s st a t e m e n t t o y o u , t h a t : “I r e c e i v e d p a y m e n t s o n b e h a l f o f S w i f a m b o a n d I 20 w a s a s k e d t o m a k e t h o se p a y m e n t s t o M s G o m e s w h o w o u l d t h e n d i st ri b u t e i t t o t h e m o v e m e n t . I do not k n o w w h e t h e r o r n o t sh e d i d ”. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: B u t w h a t i s s i g n i f i c a n t a t p a r a g ra p h 7 2 . t h e m i d d l e h e s a y s, M r M a s h a b a sa y s: Page 24 of 203 In 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 “I m a d e t h e p a y m e n t s e t o u t i n A n n e x u r e s R A 1 5 , 1 7 , 20, 21 and 22.” Those are the payments referred to in the payment schedule t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n . Yo u r e m e m b e r ye st e r d a y. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: S o t h e o n l y q u e s t i o n , a s t h e C h a i rp e r s o n h a s p o i n t e d o u t i s , w e r e t h o se p a y. . . c a n t h o s e p a ym e n t s b e linked to the ANC? That is the issue. Wo u l d b e t h a t b e c o r r e ct ? 10 MR MOLEFE: W e l l , t h e [ l a u g h ] t h e . . . t h e p a ym e n t c a n o n l y b e l i n ke d t o t h e A N C t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t u h , a c c o r d i n g t o M r Mashaba and Ms Gomes presents herself as a fundraiser for the ANC. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s, t h a t i s c o r r e ct . T h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 7 3 u n d e r t h a t , h e s a y s: “I g a v e t h e a n n e x u r e s t o M r M a m a b o l o t o s h o w t h a t I s u p p o rt e d t h e A N C a s r e q u e st e d d u r i n g t h e m e e t i n g b y M r M o l e f e ”. W h a t i s yo u r r e a ct i o n ? 20 MR MOLEFE: Uh, that is not true. It had nothing to do with whether uh, we wanted to put payments to the ANC. Uh, the d o cu m e n t w a s r e q u e st e d f o r h i m t o d e m o n st ra t e t h a t w h e n h e s a y s h e p a i d m o n e y t o S i m i l e x o f M s M a ri a G o m e s a n d u h , t h e t r u st t h a t w a s h e l d b y u h , u h , t h o s e u h , t h a t . . . t h a t l a w. . . l a w f i rm a n d . . . a n d . . . a n d u h M r S a b e l o , N g o zi S a b e l o , Page 25 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 t h a t , i n f a ct , t h o s e p a ym e n t s w e r e e ff e ct e d . T h a t i s. . . t h a t i s . . . t h a t i s w h a t t h e e vi d e n c e w a s s u p p o s e d t o p r o v e f o r u s b e c a u s e I h a v e a l re a d y s a i d t h a t I n e ve r a s k e d h i m w h e t h e r h e w a s s u p p o rt i n g t h e A N C o r n o t . CHAIRPERSON: u n d e r st a n d your [throat cl e a ri n g ] e vi d e n c e and Excuse you m u st me. tell As I if I me m i s u n d e r st a n d . T h e m e e t i n g w a s c a l l e d b y M r M a s h a b a . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: That is point one. Point two, the meeting was Mr co n n e ct i o n ca l l e d i n v e st i g a t i o n by that Mashaba PRASA P R A S A w a s c o n d u ct i n g . in w a s. . . the with the i n v e st i g a t i o n s that That is number two. I s t h a t ri g h t ? T h e m e e t i n g h a d a l i n k. MR MOLEFE: That it was . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] by the with the i n v e st i g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, h i s r e q u e st f o r a m e e t i n g . M R M O L E F E : Ye s, C h a i r p e r so n . CHAIRPERSON: ...had something to do i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t P R A S A w a s co n d u ct i n g . 20 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: U m , a m I c o r r e ct i n a l s o s a yi n g t h a t u h , i n p a rt i c u l a r, t h i s r e q u e st w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e i n ve s t i g a t i o n t h a t P R A S A w a s c o n d u ct i n g t h a t a ff e ct e d S w i f a m b o ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s c o r r e ct . A n d u m , a t t h e m e e t i n g , Page 26 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 h e r e q u e st s y o u t o u h - u h . . . u h , h e re q u e st s t h a t h i s a s s e t s s h o u l d n o t b e t o u c h e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n . Is t h a t ri g h t ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: A n d u h , a n d h e . . . si n c e h e i s t h e o n e w h o c a l l e d . . . w h o r e q u e st e d t h e m e e t i n g , o b vi o u sl y h e i s t h e o n e w h o w e r e . . . w h o w a s g o i n g t o t e l l yo u w h y h e w a n t e d t h e meeting. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d . . . a n d h e t e l l s yo u w h y h e w a n t e d t h e meeting. H i s. . . a n d h e s a y s h e i s f e a ri n g t h a t a s a re s u l t o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t u m , r e l a t e t o S w i f a m b o , h e f e a r s t h a t h i s a s se t s m i g h t b e i n d a n g e r o f b e i n g t a k e n a w a y. U h , a s f a r a s yo u k n o w, h e h i m s e l f h a d n o b u si n e s s or no business that he was uh, doing with... with PRASA in h i s p e r so n a l ca p a ci t y o r t h o u g h a n y c o m p a n y o t h e r t h a n t h a t he was chairperson of Swifambo. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o . . . so . . . s o t h e w h o l e m e e t i n g w a s r e a l l y 20 a b o u t h o w t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o f P R A S A re l a t i n g t o S w i f a m b o w a s a ff e ct i n g h i m o r c o u l d a ff e ct h i m . M R M O L E F E : B e c a u se h e w a s t h e c h a i r m a n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Because he was the chairman. Ye s, y e s. Ye s. N o , t h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: And he had been asked to be chairperson by Page 27 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s o m e b o d y e l se . W h o w a s t h a t p e r s o n ? MR MOLEFE: T h a t p e r s o n w a s u h . . . t h e p e r s o n w h o a s ke d Mr Mashaba to be the chairperson of Swifambo was the founder of Swifambo, Mr Mabunda Makhensa. ADV SONI SC: Makhensa Mabunda? M R M O L E F E : J a , Ma k h e n s a M a b u n d a . J a . ADV SONI SC: A n d w h a t co m p a n y w a s h e a s s o ci a t e d w i t h , Mr Mabunda? MR 10 MOLEFE: Swifambo. Uh, Mr Mabunda was a s s o ci a t e d with Uh, he... he was with what was called the S- G r o u p w h i c h h a d a l o t o f s u b si d i a ri e s u n d e r i t . A c o n su l t i n g u h , a n e n g i n e e r i n g c o n s u l t i n g f i r m . Uh, g e n e r a l c o n s u l t i n g u h , b u si n e s s. A n d t h e n , o f c o u r se u h , t h e o t h e r o n e w a s c a l l e d S w i f a m b o R a i l s. And then I think that is the one that was supposed to t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e p r o c u re m e n t o f l o c o m o t i v e s. ADV SONI SC: N o w t h e S - G r o u p i s s h o rt f o r w h a t c o m p a n y o f w h a t g ro u p o f c o m p a n y ? M R M O L E F E : T h e u h , S -G r o u p i s s h o rt f o r S w i f a m b o G r o u p 20 o f C o m p a n i e s. ADV SONI SC: T h e e vi d e n c e e l s e w h e r e i s t h e S - G r o u p i s s h o rt a . . . i s sh o rt f o r S i y a ya . MR MOLEFE: O h , o k a y. Ja. Ye s, S i y a y a a l s o t h a t h e i s i n v o l v e d i n . I t i s a l s o a u h , c o n s u l t i n g b u si n e s s. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n f i n a l l y. Page 28 of 203 C a n I re f e r y o u t o 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 p a r a g ra p h 7 9 o f M r M a s h a b a ’s r e s p o n s e w h i c h a p p e a r s a t p a g e t h i rt y. . . u h , 3 3 1 ? M R M O L E F E : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y] A D V S O N I S C : W h e r e i n r e s p o n s e t o p a r a g ra p h 9 . 1 3 o f y o u r re p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t , h e s a y s t h e s e . . . t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e s e a re a d m i t t e d , s a v e t h a t h e d i d n o t p r o v i d e c e rt a i n d o c u m e n t s b u t I can ask us to go back to paragraph 9.13 which is at page 264? M R M O L E F E : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y] 10 ADV SONI SC: A n d y o u w i l l s e e t h a t i s w h e re y o u l i st t h e d o cu m e n t s t h a t w e r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e e n v e l o p e g i v e n t o M r M a m a b o l o . P a g e 2 6 4 , m i st e r. . . M R M O L E F E : Ye s, si r. U h , C h a i r p e r s o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m? MR MOLEFE: I have found the page. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: about that. N o w j u st . . . j u st s o t h a t t h e r e i s n o d i s p u t e Do you confirm that the envelope that Mr M a m a b o l o g a v e y o u c o n t a i n e d t h e s e d o cu m e n t s a s y o u l i st 20 them? M R M O L E F E : I c o n f i r m , C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e re i s n o o t h e r u h , p l a c e w h e r e I c o u l d h a v e g o t t e n d o c u m e n t s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : M r Ma s h a b a . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. Page 29 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: ...outside what he uh, sends to us in an e n ve l o p e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i . I t h i n k, g o to the page two hundred and...? A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. P a g e 2 6 4 , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 264. Uh... ADV SONI SC: T h a t i s t h e p a g e I h a v e a ct u a l l y f i n i s h e d y e st e r d a y, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Un, I wonder whether uh... these d o cu m e n t s t h a t w e r e i n t h e e n v e l o p e a r e ve r y i m p o rt a n t . I w o n d e r w h e t h e r w e h a v e p l a c e d t h e m o n r e co r d , a p a rt f r o m si m p l y s a yi n g d o c u m e n t s l i st e d i n p a g e 2 6 . . . I a m l o o ki n g a t 264. ADV SONI SC: 264. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t ri g h t ? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n m a y b e w e s h o u l d j u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: Uh...[intervenes] C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . p l a c e o n r e c o rd . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 A D V S O N I S C : I d e n t i f y w h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: . . . e xa ct l y w h a t d o c u m e n t s w e r e t h a t w e r e in the envelope, ja. A D V S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i rp e r s o n . Uh, Mr Molefe, a t p a ra g r a p h n i n e . . . 9 . 1 3 . 1 , t h e f i r s t d o c u m e n t yo u s a y t h a t w a s i n t h e e n ve l o p e w a s R A 1 5 a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e Page 30 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 283. CHAIRPERSON: Uh, he... he... he might not need to go to e a ch o n e . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, I . . . I c o u l d i d e n t i f y i t . CHAIRPERSON: I f h e k n o w s. . . J a , i f h e k n o w s. He has c h e c ke d a l r e a d y. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d j u st co n f i r m . MR MOLEFE: I... I confirm, Chairperson. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: And this could be the document uh, that w e r e f e rr e d t o y e s t e r d a y. T h i s i s t h e s c h e d u l e o f p a y m e n t s. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . A D V S O N I S C : T h e n e xt d o c u m e n t i s t h e o n e a t R A 1 6 w h i c h i s a t p a g e 2 8 4 a n d t h a t i s a st ri n g o f e m a i l s b e t w e e n M r Mashaba and Mr Sabelo. M R M O L E F E : U h , t h a t i s c o rr e ct , C h a i r p e r so n . ADV SONI SC: And then the next one is 217 which is a l e t t e r w ri t t e n b y M r M a s h a b a t o h i s b a n k, a s ki n g t h e m t o 20 f a ci l i t a t e a p a ym e n t t o K n o w l e s H u s a i n o r t e n m i l l i o n f o r R 100 000,00. M R M O L E F E : U h , t h a t i s c o rr e ct , C h a i r p e r so n . A D V S O N I S C : A n d yo u h a v e c h e c k e d t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R M O L E F E : I . . . I w i l l c h e c k i t , y e s. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n e xt o n e . . . t h e n e xt d o c u m e n t y o u Page 31 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 re f e r t o i s R A 1 8 w h i c h i s a n d t h i s i s t h e d o c u m e n t w e w e n t t h r o u g h y e st e r d a y, t h e f i r st i n vo i c e t h a t S i m i l e x s e n t t o M r Mashaba. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h e n R A 1 9 i s t h e se c o n d i n vo i ce . MR MOLEFE: I have... I have uh, I confirm that. A D V S O N I S C : A n d R A 2 0 i s t h e p a y m e n t a u t h o ri s a t i o n l e t t e r to the bank again by Mr Mashaba for a payment to be made to Knowles Husain. 10 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: A n d R A 2 1 i s a si m i l a r d o c u m e n t t h a t i n re l a t i o n t o a . . . a d i ff e r e n t p a y m e n t t o K n o w l e s H u s a i n w h o sent for R 14 500 000,00. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: And RA22 is the payment notification sent by A B S A B a n k t o M r M a s h a b a ’s c o m p a n y. M R M O L E F E : C o rr e ct , C h a i r p e r so n . ADV SONI SC: For R9 400 00,00. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . 20 ADV SONI SC: And then RA23 is emails between Mr M a s h a b a a n d M s G o m e s. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . A D V S O N I S C : A n d i n t h e s e , s h e j u st r e f e r s t o t h e i n v o i c e s w e h a v e t a l k e d a b o u t e a rl i e r. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . Page 32 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: N o w j u st f i n a l l y i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s e . . . t h i s. . . y o u r e vi d e n c e r e l a t i n g t o w h a t M r M a s h a b a t o l d y o u , t h i s re p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e d o c u m e n t s a t t a c h e d t o y o u , I j u st want to confirm that you do confirm that what is set out in t h e r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t i s c o r r e ct l y r e c o r d s w h a t h a p p e n e d a t the time? MR MOLEFE: I d o co n f i rm t h a t C h a i r p e r s o n . That the c o n t e n t s o f t h e a ff i d a vi t co n f i r m s w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e t i m e . ADV SONI SC: 10 Mr Chairperson, may I... may I make this p o i n t ? Yo u h a ve r a i s e d a n i m p o rt a n t i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : U h , p l e a s e ra i se y o u r v o i c e . A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Yo u h a v e ra i se d a n i m p o rt a n t i s s u e t h a t I . . . I i n t e n d e d r a i si n g u h , u h , b ri n g i n g i t u p . C l e a rl y w h a t o n e n e e d s n o w i s t h e e vi d e n c e o f M r M a s h a b a a n d t h e e vi d e n ce o f M s G o m e s a n d t o t h e e xt e n t n e c e s s a r y, M r M a m a b o l o . S o t h o s e a re t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o m w e w i l l . . . w e l l , M r Mamabolo, 20 perhaps an a ff i d a vi t , j u st to c o n f i rm the c o r r e ct n e s s o f t h i s b u t p e rh a p s t o c a l l h i m , d e p e n d i n g o n M r M a s h a b a ’s re s p o n s e a n d M s G o m e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: G o m e s, we O k a y. will B u t u h - u h , Mr M a s h a b a a n d M s o b vi o u s l y have re s p o n d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] Page 33 of 203 to get them to 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : . . . t o M r M o l e f e ’s u h -u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. A D V S O N I S C : . . . a ff i d a v i t a n d e vi d e n ce . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. And... ja, that... that needs to be done. A D V S O N I S C : N o w, j u st . . . j u st f i n a l l y o n t h i s i s s u e . A g a i n , w e a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t st a t e o f m i n d , si r. M r M o l e f e , w h e n yo u w e re t o l d t h i s b y M r M a s h a b a a n d . . . a n d r e m e m b e r y o u a r e a 10 member of the ANC. I suppose you thought “oh, but that is n o t . . . ” b u t c e rt a i n l y a t t h a t st a g e b e c a u s e h e s a y s yo u . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] m e m b e r s. W h a t w a s y o u r r e a ct i o n t o h o w P R A S A w a s a w a r d i n g t e n d e r s i f t h a t a l l e g a t i o n w a s c o rr e ct ? MR MOLEFE: I t h i n k c o u n se l s h o u l d r e p h r a s e t h e q u e st i o n , C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u se u h , c o u n s e l s a y s h o w P R A S A w a s a w a r d e d t e n d e r s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : C o u n se l w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g e l s e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s, I am a f ra i d I also did not pay a t t e n t i o n b e c a u s e I w a s r e a d i n g s o m e t h i n g h e r e . [ l a u g h s] M R M O L E F E : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Uh, do you want to...? MR MOLEFE: C h a i r. Ye s, i t s h o u l d b e , m a yb e S w i f a m b o was ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. Page 34 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M R M O L E F E : [ I n d i st i n ct ] A D V S O N I S C : O b vi o u sl y, I . . . I c a n p a rt i c u l a ri se i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. H ’ m . ADV SONI SC: I n r e g a r d t o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r t e n d e r. No, you a r e q u i t e ri g h t M r M o l e f e . CHAIRPERSON: We l l , m a yb e j u st . . . j u st u h , a rt i c u l a t e t h e q u e st i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 10 . . . w h e t h e r i t i s t h e s a m e q u e st i o n o r a n amended one. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, I . . . I w i l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st so t h a t o n e u n d e r st a n d s i t . ADV SONI SC: Ja. N o w, M r M a s h a b a w a s w i t h S w i f a m b o had been awarded a tender for more than R 2,5 billion. Is t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: Right. Yo u l o o k a t t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t s a n d u h , t h e p r o c e s s a n d y o u f i n d t h a t d o c k. . . Mt i m k u l u a s h e c a l l e d h i m s e l f , h a d t a i l o r m a d e t h e c o n ce p t t o s u e S w i f a m b o . 20 T h a t w a s y o u r e vi d e n ce a n d t h a t w a s t h e f i n d i n g o f t h e s u p r e m e c o u rt o f a p p e a l a n d h i g h c o u rt . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. ADV SONI SC: Now you are then are told by Mr Mashaba t h a t t h e r e i s t h i s a l l a d d e d d i m e n si o n a n d h e m e n t i o n s Page 35 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 money being paid to the movement. I a m n o t s a yi n g h e i n cl u d e s i t b u t t h a t i s w h a t h e t e l l s y o u . What is your re a ct i o n t o t h a t ? CHAIRPERSON: U h , I a m . . . I . . . I u n d e r st o o d M r M o l e f e t o s a y h i s re a ct i o n w a s o f b e i n g c o n c e rn u h b u t b e a ri n g i n m i n d that there was no proof. H e w a s j u st g e t t i n g t h i s a l l e g a t i o n . I s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g co r re ct ? MR MOLEFE: That... that is correct, Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 MR MOLEFE: B u t u h , b u t o n e ca n t a k e a s. . . i t a st e p f u rt h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? M R M O L E F E : A n d s a y. . . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? M R M O L E F E : . . . t h a t i t r a i s e s t h e q u e st i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: ...as to w h e t h e r. . . as to the extent w h i c h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 M R M O L E F E : . . . t h e t e n d e r p r o ce s s i t s e l f . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . m i g h t h a v e b e e n i n f l u e n c e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . u h , b y p a rt i e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. Page 36 of 203 to 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M R M O L E F E : . . . t h a t u h , M r M a s h a b a a l l e g e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . t h a t M s G o m e s u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . s h e w a s r a i si n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . t h e f u n d s f o r. . . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . J a , o k a y. ADV SONI SC: Now when you met the top 6, was one... was 10 this one of the matters you raised with the ANC top 6? M R M O L E F E : We . . . w e u m . . . I . . . I . . . I t h i n k. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e . . . m a y b e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R M O L E F E : . . . r e f r e s h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: L e t m e st a rt u h , w i t h a n e a rl i e r q u e st i o n . When you met with... when you met with Mr Mashaba, had y o u a l re a d y m e t w i t h t h e t o p 6 o r d i d t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h t h e top 6 happen later? M R M O L E F E : W h e n . . . w h e n I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a . 20 M R M O L E F E : W h e n I m e t w i t h M r M a s h a b a . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: . . . t h e m e e t i n g w i t h t h e t o p 6 h a d a l re a d y happened. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a . T h a t . . . t h a t i s f i n e . MR MOLEFE: But the meeting Page 37 of 203 with the top 6 uh, 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 C h a i r p e r s o n w o u l d h a v e d e a l t b r o a d l y w i t h t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n s and what was mentioned and the Swifambo matter was the b i g g e st a n d i t w a s k e y i n u h , w h a t w a s i m a g i n g a s b i g i rr e g u l a ri t i e s. A n o t h e r o n e w a s t h e u h , w h a t I re f e r t o a s t h e Braamfontein depot, uh, m o d e rn i s a t i o n uh-uh, and the p r o c u r e m e n t o f r a i l s a n d t u r n o u t s a s p a rt o f t h e p r e p a r a t i o n s f o r t h e t r a i n s t h a t w e re t o c o m e f ro m B ra zi l . There 10 would have been many other sm a l l e r uh, matters that were imaging uh, like uh, a bit of Siyangena and s o o n b e c a u se t h e o t h e r s , S i y a y a a n d s o o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR MOLEFE: Ye s . Siyaya GP would have also been involved in that Braamfontein depot transactional advisory service, designed how the depot should look like. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o t h e t h r u s t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g about your meeting with the top six is that you spoke to them and told them in general about what was emerging from the investigations that your board was conducting at 20 PRASA but you specifically mentioned certain important contracts including the Swifambo biggest, as I understand you. because it was the Yo u m e n t i o n e d , s p e c i f i c a l l y mentioned it and you would have mentioned many others. MR MOLEFE: That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. Page 38 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR SONI SC: Now when you filed or when the replying affidavit about what Mr Mashaba had told you was lodged in court it would have become a public document, would that be correct? MR MOLEFE: Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , i t w o u l d b e c o m e a p u b l i c document. MR SONI SC: So people generally would have known that such an allegation had been made. MR MOLEFE: 10 That is correct, Chairperson. MR SONI SC: Were you contacted by anybody from the ANC about that allegation? MR MOLEFE: ANC. I was not contacted by anyone from the I recall this matter being raised pertinently by the g e n t l e m a n w h o l a t e r b e c a m e t h e M i n i s t e r f o r Tr a n s p o r t , M r M a s w a n g a n y i s a y i n g t h a t , y o u k n o w, I h a v e a c c u s e d t h e ANC of receiving monies from – and that I did not even produce evidence to prove that they did not why I mentioned this matter but nobody from the headquarters of the ANC raised an issue with me. 20 MR SONI SC: When Mr Maswanganyi made this accusation or made this – said this to you, was he saying it as a member of a committee in parliament? I think yesterday you mentioned that …[intervenes] MR MOLEFE: capacity as a Chairperson, he was saying it in his member of the Portfolio Page 39 of 203 Committee on 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Tr a n s p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: have explained O h , o k a y, a l r i g h t . to him that you I take it you would were simply making reference to a report that was made to you, you were not making the accusation yourself about the ANC receiving t h e m o n e y. MR MOLEFE: That is correct, Chairperson, and as counsel correctly points out, that allegation was published in the media as a result of the court papers, my replying 10 affidavits there which was in court. It was not like I went to the media just to release a media statement. MR SONI SC: And did you at any stage communicate this to any other person in the ANC except through the court papers, the allegation that Mr Mashaba had made to you? MR MOLEFE: Let us start off by saying my minister was a member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC. My minister was receiving regular reports on this i n v e s t i g a t i o n , a n d w e r e f e r r e d t o t h o s e r e p o r t s y e s t e r d a y, in the context of my reply to the m inister ’s letter where she 20 was asking us to close off the investigation and that letter is dated the 24 August. Ja, 24 August 2016. So a member of the executive committee who reports to the President and the cabinet, who also sat on the subcommittees of the National Executive Committee of the ANC was privy to all of these investigations and I did Page 40 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s a y y e s t e r d a y, w e l l , i t l o o k s l i k e i t w a s m u c h l a t e r, i n 2 0 1 7 , detailed letters had been written to various institutions in parliament but at that time also – it was public knowledge that we had reported a series of cases to the Hawks for f u r t h e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n t e r m s o f PA C C A . MR SONI SC: So on that note can I ask you to go back to your affidavit which is bundle D and turn to the point at which we left off yesterday which is page 28, paragraph 11 3 ? 10 CHAIRPERSON: will come back something else. I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i a n d M r M o l e f e , y o u to this question. I just want Yo u c a n l o o k a t t h e p a g e l a t e r. to ask Yo u h a v e just mentioned that your minister – and I think you are referring to Mr Maswanganyi, he was the minister at the relevant time, when you said your minister was member of the cabinet, member of the NEC, is that right? MR MOLEFE: I am referring to Minister Dipuo Peters. CHAIRPERSON: MR MOLEFE: 20 Oh, Minister Dipuo Peters, oh. It was at the time when we dealt with the Mashaba. CHAIRPERSON: MR MOLEFE: O h , o k a y. My affidavit and the application of S i y a n g e n a s h e w a s , y o u k n o w, t h e M i n i s t e r. CHAIRPERSON: The Minister of – ja, alright. Now it seems obviously every minister is supposed to report to Page 41 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 the President about what is going on in their departments so that the President can see whether the department is doing well or not and whether that particular minister is doing well or not because if the minister is not doing well or if the minister is not up to the challenges of the department then the President should consider whether to ship the minister elsewhere or remove her or him and get somebody else who is up to the challenges of the department. 10 So the President would be receiving reports from each minister – he is supposed to receive reports from every minister and probe whether the work is being done properly and I would imagine that also apart from every minister reporting to the President. So I would imagine that the cabinet has occasion to hear what everyone, every minister – how every minister is doing, what are the challenges they facing in their departments and to see what decisions as cabinet can be taken but then if a minister is also a member of the NEC of 20 the governing governing p a r t y, party talks one would about expect deploying that since its cadres the in government and elsewhere, one would imagine that the governing party also keeps an eye on how its deployees perform because it should have an interest in them doing their job quite well because if they do their job quite well Page 42 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 and the populace thinks that its deployees are doing a good job the chances of getting elected – re-elected next time are greater than if they mess up in various departments. Now you have been in government – certainly I remember at provincial level, you are a senior member of the ANC, do you know whether what I am talking about does happen? MR MOLEFE: 10 That is correct, Chairperson, it happens and when I was in the province, I was also a member of the National Executive Committee, so I was both the Chairperson of the ANC in the province and a member of the National Executive Committee. But in addition to all of that we had what was called the President’s coordinating council where the President would meet with all the premiers of the provinces, members of the cabinet to do a review of the performance of government on strategic priorities that would have been identified in their strategic plans. So there was that regular report. 20 Of course, in addition to that there would have been what was called – I think it was called the budget council or forum where premiers and MECs of finance ministers and the President would meet before the final budget was appropriated and informed in those discussions by the reports of the finance and fiscal commission which was to Page 43 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ensure equitable allocation of resources throughout the c o u n t r y. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Thank you. I feel that it is cold. It certainly has got cold, Chairperson. It is still cold, it was a little warmer some time ago. CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t k n o w, I t h i n k m a y b e h e a t e r h e r e is not a very good – because even yesterday when it got b e t t e r i t w a s o n l y s l i g h t l y w a r m e r, I d o n o t t h i n k i t w e n t beyond 10 that but most of certainly me quite cold. the time seemed to make I do not know what can or cannot be done, I do not see Stimela here. listening. it Maybe somebody is If there is anything that can still be done to make the heater more effective please, somebody should f o l l o w t h a t u p . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . Yo u h a d a s k e d a q u e s t i o n and I interrupted you. MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: It would be the ideal time to take… CHAIRPERSON: 20 I see that we are at quarter past. If it is convenient we can take the tea break now then. MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, l e t u s t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k , w i l l come back at half past eleven. MR SONI SC: As you please. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. Page 44 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: W e m a y p r o c e e d . Yo u r m i c , y o u r m i c . S o r r y, C h a i r p e r s o n . May I point out that I did raise the question of that the room is cold. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ye s . I am informed that the air conditioning is c o n t r o l l e d c e n t r a l l y. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: 10 C e n t r a l l y, y e s . But that they are attending to it. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t . Chairperson, I know that I have indicated that I was going to turn to another topic but there is something that I omitted to raise with Mr Molefe. May I, with your leave, raise it in relation to his replying affidavit in the Swifambo matter? CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Mr Molefe, can I ask you to turn to bundle D page 268, that is – it says 6, page 268. Now one of the – we have dealt with the documents that Mr Mashaba gave 20 to Mr Mamabolo but in those documents, you refer to a series or an exchange of emails between Mr Montana, Ms Gomes, is that correct? MR MOLEFE: MR SONI SC: That is correct, Chairperson. N o w, f i r s t l y, y o u r a i s e t w o i s s u e s . Yo u s e t out the exchange between them at RA30 which is at page Page 45 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 323. Can I ask you to look at page 323? MR MOLEFE: Is it 13…? MR SONI SC: 323, RA30. MR MOLEFE: RA…? MR SONI SC: RA30, your replying affidavit, annexure 30. MR MOLEFE: I hope I am looking at the right documents. Are we in bundle A? MR SONI SC: Bundle D. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Bundle D is the one we have been using this morning. MR MOLEFE: B u n d l e D , o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: P a g e 3 2 3 , h e y, M r S o n i ? 323, yes. S o r r y, C h a i r p e r s o n , y e s . Now – s o r r y, c a n I j u s t a s k y o u t o i d e n t i f y w h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s are? 20 MR MOLEFE: RA330, Chairperson …[intervenes] MR SONI SC: RA30. MR MOLEFE: RA30? MR SONI SC: Ye s . MR MOLEFE: It is an email. MR SONI SC: Email sent from Maria Gomes on the 17 December 2013 and to whom is it addressed? MR MOLEFE: Addressed to Mr Lucky Montana, PRASA Corp. MR SONI SC: O k a y, i f y o u j u s t g o t o t h e d o c u m e n t a t t h e Page 46 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 bottom of that, what is that document, on the second half of that page? MR MOLEFE: That document at the bottom is an email from Mr Lucky Montana and it is addressed to Comrade Sonia. MR SONI SC: Well, it is Maria Gomes, am I right? MR MOLEFE: It is address to Maria Gomes. MR SONI SC: Ye s . MR MOLEFE: But it also says: 10 “Dear Comrade Sonia.” MR SONI SC: MR MOLEFE: And what is the date of that? The date of that document is 16 December 2013. MR SONI SC: And the document from – I mean, the email f r o m M s G o m e s i s t h e 1 7 D e c e m b e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR MOLEFE: That is correct. MR SONI SC: So can we look at the document at the bottom, the email of the 16th. Mr Chairperson, I submit it is a document and I would ask the witness to read it into 20 the record. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , t h a t i s f i n e . I s e e t h e s e q u e n c e i s t h a t t h e o n e a t t h e b o t t o m i s 1 6 D e c e m b e r, t h e o n e a t the top …[intervenes] MR SONI SC: Is the 17th, yes. CHAIRPERSON: T h e 1 7 D e c e m b e r. O k a y, a l r i g h t . Page 47 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR SONI SC: So I just want to ask you, in regard to the email from Mr Montana to Ms Gomes, what is the subject matter? MR MOLEFE: T h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r, C h a i r p e r s o n , o f t h e email of Mr Montana to Ms Gomes is the Capital Project that PRASA will undertake. I do not know if I have to read …[intervenes] MR SONI SC: MR 10 No, no, I am …(intervenes) MOLEFE: Quite, you k n o w, running out of …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y, M r M o l e f e , I t h i n k what counsel is asking, he is asking for what appears at the top where it says from T Montana and his email address to Maria Gomes and the email address, then there is some – then it says Subject. I think that is what he is asking about when he says what was the subject of that email. MR MOLEFE: Oh, the subject of the email. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR MOLEFE: Emails, ja. S u m m a r y, i t s a y s S u m m a r y N o t e . And it …[intervenes] MR SONI SC: Well, the importance of that you will see when your read Ms Gomes’ but I just want to point out that the subject is, according to the email, Summary Notes, is that correct? Page 48 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: That is correct. MR SONI SC: Now can you then read the email please? MR MOLEFE: The one by Mr Montana? MR SONI SC: Ye s . MR MOLEFE: It says: “Dear Comrade Sonia, as discussed please note as follows: M o l o t o R a i l C o r r i d o r, t h i s p r o j e c t i s a b o u t the introduction of multimodal transport system to serve as a catalyst for economic development in the 10 Western Region of Mpumalanga, Limpopo and Gauteng. It also involves three municipalities which include Ekangala, Metropolitan. Sekhukhune and Ts h w a n e T h e r a i l l i n e i s a p p r o x i m a t e l y 11 3 kilometres with estimated cost of R12 billion, (the cost to be revised once the review is complete.) The project is currently undergoing an option analysis phase with the project review expected to be completed by March 2014.” Then it goes on, it says: 20 “Johannesburg, project is Durban about High introducing speed a rail. This high-speed train service between Johannesburg and Durban. The project is currently being conceptualised with the detailed feasibility study expected to be undertaken in 2013/2014 financial y e a r. Page 49 of 203 Detailed options 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 analysis will be undertaken to assess the viability of a separate Passenger Rail service for a combination of freight and passenger rail services.” It then goes on to say: “Park Station. This is the largest railway station in South Africa situated in Johannesburg with over 200 000 commuters connecting through the station d a i l y. I t i s , h o w e v e r, a n t i c i p a t e d t h a t t h e c o m m u t e r numbers will reach 260 000 by 2020. 10 It is planned that a full backing of the station will be undertaken in order to create more space for commercial use. In the medium term PRASA will invest approximately R1 billion as part of phase one of the project which mainly focuses on creating additional commercial space on the lower part of the station. The fourth project is Pretoria station.” It says: “Similar to Park Station in terms of the planned works the project is currently being conceptualised 20 for future development. passengers, s t a t i o n s d a i l y. commuters Approximately connect 130 000 through the Hope this will be of assistance to you and the team from DBA.” MR SONI SC: Can I ask you, do you know who DBA is? MR MOLEFE: Well, I am not sure, this may well mean – I Page 50 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 a m n o t s u r e , I a m n o t s u r e , l e t m e n o t a n s w e r, I a m n o t sure who DBA referred to. CHAIRPERSON: What the abbreviation stands for? Yo u do not know what the abbreviation that he used stands for? Ja, no that is fine, I think that is what you mean, you mean t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h i s a b b r e v i a t i o n s t a n d s f o r. MR MOLEFE: I do not know what this abbreviation stands f o r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR SONI SC: Ye s , o k a y. Alright, can we then read the email of the 17 December 2017? CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Before we do that… Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I notice and I just want to confirm whether you notice the same thing, Mr Molefe, that in this email that you have just read the author tells Ms Maria Gomes or Comrade Sonia, as he calls the person concerned, he tells her about projects that PRASA was undertaking 20 or was planning to undertake, what they entailed, at least in regard to two, he also tells her what monetary value would be attached to them. The one, the first one he says – and the estimate cost of the project is about R12 billion. MR MOLEFE: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: The other one that he tells, that is in Page 51 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 paragraph 3, he says would be approximately R1 billion and, of course later he says: “I hope that this will be of assistance to you and the team from DBA.” That is part of what he is telling the person about. projects and in some cases the costs involved. The Is that what you notice as well? MR MOLEFE: I am noticed that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR SONI SC: Ye s . Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u . A s y o u p l e a s e , C h a i r. I will want to come back to that issue as he sets it out in his – as Mr Molefe sets it out in his replying affidavit. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: O k a y, o k a y. Now what is the subject matter again in relation to Ms Gomes’ email? MR MOLEFE: The subject matter in Ms Gomes’ email, Chairperson, is summary notes. MR SONI SC: So putting it …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: 20 We you just, for the sake of completeness mention again for the record that that is the email that appears at page 2, at page 323 of bundle D, that is marked RA30 to – ja, that is marked RA30 and it is an email from Maria Gomes to Mr Lucky Montana dated 17 December 2013 at 12.25. MR MOLEFE: Ye s . Page 52 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: And you have just confirmed that the subject matter is Summary Notes. The subject matter is the same as the subject matter of the email that came from Mr Montana to Maria Gomes, is that right? MR MOLEFE: That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Ye s , M r S o n i ? As it pleases, Chairperson. Could you read the whole email including the manner in which Ms Gomes addresses Mr Montana? 10 MR MOLEFE: May counsel repeat that question? MR SONI SC: I say could you read the whole email from Ms Gomes addresses Mr Montana including the manner in which she addresses Mr Montana? MR MOLEFE: The email reads as follows, Chairperson: “ D e a r C o m r a d e H a p p y, I a m s o r r y t o c o m e b a c k t o you only today but yesterday dinner finished too late but otherwise, how are you feeling now? Hope m u c h b e t t e r. H o w e v e r, i t w a s g o o d h e l p f o r t h e p a r t of our conversations related to railways issue. 20 Now today I will have a meeting with Vice-President of the bank to go to some more details of how and what we would like to go forward. The meeting will be in S andton at 4 p.m. in our office. So if you feel you can come and participate, will be most than welcome. Otherwise I will see you later because Page 53 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 our man is completely desperate. So please. With regards, SG.” Which I think is Sonia Gomes. MR SONI SC: Now just putting the two emails in context would it be fair to say that Ms Gomes’ email is a response to Mr Montana’s email of the 16th? MR MOLEFE: That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: J a , I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i . The salutation in the email from Ms Maria Gomes to Mr Montana is: 10 “ D e a r C o m r a d e H a p p y. ” Do you know that name as one of the names for Mr Montana or is it a name that you do not know? I do not know whether it is – I am taking it that it is a name, so – b u t I d o n o t k n o w. Is that something that you associate with him or not? MR MOLEFE: W h e r e I a m s i t t i n g n o w, I a m n o t c e r t a i n b u t it is very clear that is a response to a discussion they have. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR MOLEFE: Ye s . And the notes that appear in the email of Mr Montana to Ms Gomes dated the 16 December 2013. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o I g u e s s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s I do not know about Comrade Happy but when I look at the two emails it is clear to me that the one is a response to t h e o t h e r. Page 54 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: That is so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . Now in your replying affidavit at page 268 you deal with – or you comment on this exchange of emails at page 268 paragraph 9.15.10. Can I ask you to read into the record what you said in paragraph 9.15.10 of your replying affidavit? MR MOLEFE: Paragraph 9.15.10 of my replying affidavit reads as follows: 10 “The first alarming feature of this correspondence is the familiarity between Ms Gomes and Mr Montana. For instance, they refer to each other as comrades. The second alarming feature is that Mr Montana sends Ms Gomes details of various projects within PRASA. Mr Montana had no business sending such i n f o r m a t i o n t o M s G o m e s , S i m i l e x i s n o t a t e n d e r e r, supplier or contractor to PRASA. best of my knowledge, is not Ms Gomes, to the involved in any entities supplying services to PRASA.” 20 MR SONI SC: And, of course, the third point that ought to be made is the one raised by the Chairperson that not only are you giving details but you are giving approximate costs which are not trifling amounts. MR MOLEFE: That is correct, Chairperson. MR SONI SC: Now where did you acquire – where did you Page 55 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 get this document, this set of emails from, Mr Molefe? MR MOLEFE: My recollection, Chairperson, the set of emails was found in the course of the investigations by the investigators. MR SONI SC: And by the time it was found Mr Montana had left, so [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] MR MOLEFE: He had already left. A lot of work had to be done, imaging the laptops and computers. MR SONI SC: 10 Chairperson, I just wanted to place that on record again to say that obviously these are matters that will be canvassed with Ms Gomes and Mr Montana when they come. CHAIRPERSON: No, that is fine. I just want to go back t o s o m e t h i n g e l s e t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h e a r l i e r, M r M o l e f e . When we were looking at certain paragraphs of Mr Mashaba’s affidavit earlier on – I do not remem ber in which page, but you do not need to go there for now – I noticed that he says in that affidavit that he was instructed by Ms G o m e s t o m a k e c e r t a i n p a y m e n t s t o M s G o m e s ’ e n t i t y. 20 Is that part of what he told you at the meeting that you had with him and other people, that he was instructed? MR MOLEFE: He said that he was requested. CHAIRPERSON: He was requested. Ye s , o k a y. O k a y, well, I am just wondering what relationship he would have with her or her to instruct him to make payments to her Page 56 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 entities, but obviously you cannot help with that because he did not use that terminology in the meeting. MR MOLEFE: Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , I d o n o t k n o w h o w s h e would then instruct somebody who is not her subordinate in the same business. It is probably – is the use of language. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, maybe it is just the use of language. Well, I hope Mr Mashaba will come here and then he can explain. MR SONI SC: 10 Ye s . C a n I r a i s e o n e i s s u e ? CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Relating to that, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Ja. Ye s . Mr Molefe, can I take you to page 263 of b u n d l e D a n d i n p a r t i c u l a r p a r a g r a p h 9 . 11 . T h i s i s s t i l l p a r t of your replying affidavit. Are you there? MR MOLEFE: No, what is it, paragraph? MR SONI SC: P a r a g r a p h 9 . 11 , p a g e 2 6 3 . MR MOLEFE: I am looking at it. MR SONI SC: 20 Will you read it into the record please? It relates to the issue about the instructions. MR MOLEFE: “Mr Mashaba explained further that Mr Mabunda had instructed received from him to pay PRASA into some a of the specified money accounts without Mr Mashaba knowing who was being paid or Page 57 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 the reasons for the payment. Mr Mashaba insisted that he did not know the identity of the beneficiaries and he was merely informed that the money would benefit the movement.” MR SONI SC: So that is the difference between the two.…[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I am trying to look for Mr Mashaba’s affidavit because m aybe it might be helpful for me to… 10 MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I will be able to catch …[intervenes] MR SONI SC: Let me just try and find the passage. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI I think it is 32 something. SC: I think it is at 329, paragraph 72, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I think we – that is fine, we will move on but I think I did see where he seems to say he made 20 these effectively payments that he effectively made these – where payments he on says the instructions of …[intervenes]. MR SONI SC: Ms Gomes. CHAIRPERSON: M s G o m e s . B u t t h a t i s o k a y, I c a n c h e c k t h a t l a t e r. MR SONI SC: Ye s . Page 58 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Mr Molefe, just before tea you had indicated that you had approached the different law enforcement authorities …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i . Oh, ja. CHAIRPERSON: I a m t e r r i b l y s o r r y, I j u s t p i c k e d u p something that links to those two – which may link and not links but may link to the two emails exchanged between Ms Gomes and Mr Montana. 10 So I just mention I see that in paragraph 9.10 at page 263, I think that is a – no, I am s o r r y, t h a t i s M r M o l e f e ’ s r e p l y i n g a f f i d a v i t . MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But he says, that is Mr Molefe speaking now in his affidavit: “Mr Mashaba explained that he met with Ms Gomes. Ms Gomes told Mr Mashaba that she wanted money for the movement.” MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 “Ms Gomes also told him that she knew the bid to supply locomotives to PRASA was worth billions and she could not understand why 10% of the value of the bid could not be paid to the African National Congress.” MR SONI SC: Ye s . Page 59 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: So I do not know whether it is connected with these emails but we saw from the emails that Mr Montana, according to the email, was telling Ms Gomes about projects that PRASA was undertaking or was going to be undertaking and telling her even the costs involved, the value, monetary value of those projects and here you are saying what he told you and you are saying he said he said he met with Ms Gomez and he said Ms Gomez told him that 10 it’s Mashaba, that she wanted money for the movement and Ms Gomez – Mr Mashaba told you that Ms Gomez also told him that she knew the bid to supply locomotives to PRASA was worth billions and she could not understand why 10% of the value of the bid could not be paid to the African National Congress. Yo u d o n ’ t n e e d t o comment, you may comment if you want to, I was just saying maybe there is a connection between how Ms Gomez gets to know information that maybe should only be known at a certain time, only by people within PRASA. That’s what I was saying, that it may be that there is that 20 link but it might not be that it links to this particular one, o k a y b u t a s I s a y, y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o c o m m e n t o n i t b u t i f you want to say something, I’m not preventing you from saying something. MR MOLEFE: No, I would rather not comment. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 60 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: Because I don’t know where it would stop save to say that there seem to be the probability of the link in the emails and what appears in this response that a person get given, the values project and the values well in advance and the person says probably t hat’s what they had a g r e e d w i t h M r M o n t a n a t h a t t h e y m u s t g e t 1 0 % y o u k n o w, for the movement but the 10%, as she is putting it of each one of those projects. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , y e s , n o t h a n k y o u . A D V S O N I S C : M r M o l e f e , c a n I t h e n g o t o p a g e 2 8 , 11 3 o f y o u r m a i n a f f i d a v i t , p a g e 2 8 p a r a g r a p h 11 3 . MR MOLEFE: Is that Bundle B? ADV SONI SC: MR MOLEFE: The same bundle yes. This one? ADV SONI SC: Ye s , p a g e 2 8 p a r a g r a p h 11 3 , a r e y o u there? MR MOLEFE: I am there Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson I just wondered in the interest of time because I’m also considering how to deal 20 with this complaint beyond merely recording it as a com plaint because we know from what’s contained in the affidavit that – and in the answering affidavit of the police that there’s no answer for why they’ve delayed up to now and I wondered whether it may not be an idea to get Mr Molefe to confirm the correctness of this and then get the Page 61 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 new head of the police inspectorate to come and explain why nothing has been done now? It’s just in the interest of saving time Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s well this is non-action by Law Enforcement Agencies, well it shouldn’t take long for him t o j u s t s a y, b a n g , b a n g , b a n g . ADV SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV SONI SC: 10 Ja. S o i n t h e s e – i n p a r a g r a p h s 11 3 , 11 4 a n d 11 5 o f p a g e 2 9 y o u s e t o u t t h e a p p r o a c h e s y o u m a d e t o t h e police, would that be correct, Mr Montana? MR MOLEFE: ADV SONI SC: I do Chairperson. A n d a t p a g e – p a r a g r a p h 11 3 y o u r e f e r t o a letter that you wrote to the Law Enforcement Authorities including the head of the NDPP at that time? MR MOLEFE: ADV SONI SC: That is correct Chairperson. And the head of the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation? MR MOLEFE: 20 ADV SONI SC: That’s correct Chairperson. And that letter appears at page 192, you don’t need to go to it but I’m just asking you to confirm that, that is the letter you, in fact, wrote to the different persons? MR MOLEFE: I do confirm that I wrote that letter and I’ve seen it several times before I appeared here. Page 62 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: Can I just ask, if, in about two or three s e n t e n c e s y o u c a n s u m m a r i s e w h a t y o u s a i d i n t h a t l e t t e r, no not two or three sentences but as summarised as possible. MR MOLEFE: T h e e s s e n c e o f t h e l e t t e r, C h a i r p e r s o n , w a s a complaint about the fact that nothing had been done about the cases reported to the DPCI and relating to what we considered to be very serious violations of the law or criminal activities and the fact that we’d registered several 10 of these cases, I think elsewhere, probably in the founding affidavit in the previous – in m y letter to the Minister and p r e v i o u s a f f i d a v i t , m o s t l i k e l y, w e t a b l e d s o m e 6 9 c a s e s that we had reported. So we were concerned that there was no movement. ADV SONI SC: MR MOLEFE: And did you ask…[intervenes]. And of course, I – my view was that – and the view of the Board was that it was improper for what was the organ of State charged with the responsibility of investigating crimes, offences and prosecuting, laying a 20 basis for prosecution in that regard. ADV SONI SC: And can I ask you just, the extent of the d e t a i l s y o u g a v e i n t h a t l e t t e r, i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 1 9 7 p a r a g r a p h 11 . 4 y o u p o i n t o u t t h a t y o u w e r e a n n e x i n g t o t h e com plaint, the founding affidavits in the Siyangena and the Swifambo matters, at page 197. Page 63 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: Hundred and? ADV SONI SC: MR MOLEFE: P a g e 1 9 7 p a r a g r a p h 11 . 4 . That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: Right and then on the next page, page 198 you set out the formal request for assistance, if you look at paragraphs 14. 15 and 16, you point out why the police matters and the on NDPP are account of required the to look legislation into these dealing with corruption. 10 MR MOLEFE: Ye s i t i s s o C h a i r p e r s o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MR MOLEFE: Mr Molefe…[intervenes]. But it relates to – we’re dealing with where we talking about Corporate Governance, the constitution obliges organs of State to support one another to collaborate in dealing with the problems and to the extent possible avoid unnecessary litigation. Litigation is to be dealt with as last resort. CHAIRPERSON: It must have been frustrating to you and the Board to have a situation where you had to even 20 remind Law Enforcement Agencies about what the constitution says about their responsibilities to try and get them to do their job, it must have been frustrating to have to approach so many entities or institutions and functionaries without really getting support for your fights against corruption because yesterday you told us about Page 64 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 writing to the Minister and – Minister Maswanganyi not getting the support, writing to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on transport in Parliament, not even g e t t i n g a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f r e c e i p t o f y o u r l e t t e r, w r i t i n g to the Speaker of Parliament, raising these very important issues not even getting acknowledgment of receipt of your l e t t e r. W r i t i n g t o t h e H a w k s l a y i n g c o m p l a i n t s w i t h t h e SAPS and the Hawks, excepting them to do their job but them not doing their job then having to go to Court to try 10 and get them to do their job, it must have been quite draining and…[intervenes]. MR MOLEFE: It was certainly frustrating and it was inexplicable the way it was dealt with and again these matters became public knowledge, the question that one might ask, and bearing in mind that political interference is undesirable but certainly the Minister of Justice under whom such – and the Minister of Police under whom these o r g a n s r e s o r t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e t o s a y, l o o k w e s e e i n the public domain and in the reports given to our Minister 20 o f Tr a n s p o r t t h a t t h e r e a r e t h e s e c a s e s t h a t h a v e b e e n lodged with you, give us a status report, these are very serious matters what are we going to do about them, they involve monies that could easily disappear which continuing to be used against the tax payers interests. it’s a question that begs for answers. Page 65 of 203 are So 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: H’m, h’m and it may well be that to the extent that it is said that State Capture involved or entailed paralysing certain institutions so that they don’t do their j o b p r o p e r l y, t h a t t h e y ’ r e s u p p o s e d t o d o . It may well be that, trying what happened with your Board to get assistance might well – and not getting it and institutions not doing their job, it may well be that it’s a manifestation of that kind of paralysis. MR MOLEFE: 10 It is so Chairperson, the backdrop to the point that is made by the Chairperson is that there was the head of effective the and r e s p o n s i b i l i t y, DPCI or the committed Mr Anwar Hawks to who doing Dramat, – appeared to discharging he was be his removed unceremoniously on spurious allegations which never were seriously tested in a proper Court of law and that is when Mr Ntlemeza was appointed in his place. Our experience with this case, and I’ll try to be very brief, Chairperson, also, is that there were very – quite a number of professional Police Officers in the Police Service, the DP CI 20 but every time those professional Officers put their teeth on the cases, they would be removed and cronies would be appointed in their place, clearly with the instruction to do nothing and there was no movement after that. Several of them became casualties and I think one of those who became casualties would have been – but though relating Page 66 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 to a different case would have been Major – I think Major General Colonel – Brigadier Sibiya something like that who later became metropolitan head of the city of Forensic Unit in the Johannesburg. So there city – was a deliberate crippling of the system and what was happening i n t h e P o l i c e S e r v i c e s w a s a l s o h a p p e n i n g i n t h e N PA . CHAIRPERSON: of view of H’m, h’m and I guess that from the point anyone who may have been pursing State Capture and who may have been pursuing the agenda of 10 benefiting from corruption, it would make sense to make sure that the Law Enforcement Agencies would not do their job, even if evidence relating to them – evidence of crime relating to them would be placed before them because whatever they did, if they knew the Law Enforcement A g e n c i e s w o u l d d o t h e i r j o b p r o p e r l y, t h e c h a n c e s t h a t – would be that they would be caught and they would be brought to book and – so the idea of paralysing the Law Enforcement Agencies seems to be something that they would really have – that would have benefited them. 20 MR MOLEFE: It is so Chairperson, maybe at some point we must get someone to present to this Commission what exactly happened in the interaction between PRASA and t h e D P C I i n p a r t i c u l a r. The DPCI – I attended a couple of meetings with them, in particular with the gentleman, I think he’s called Major General Khana, he was the deputy Page 67 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 to Mr Ntlemeza. When we started, and we do indicate in some of our documents that they said that they were going t o p r i o r i t i s e t h e S w i f a m b o a n d S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r, w h e n w e started, he said that they needed forensic capacity to investigate. – they didn’t have We agreed with them that the capacity that we had in the PRASA investigation would be given to them with full control of those forensic investigators that they didn’t even need to give – those investigators didn’t need to give reports to PRASA because 10 once they’re under the police, DPCI, they should account to them even though PRASA was paying the bill for that. Several reports, many - actually were files – lever arch files were made available as a result of that investigation. They did not want to touch them because dealing with them would have implicated in meant those they have things. to I follow think at the some people point, Chairperson, as counsel correctly pointed out earlier on, they must be called to explain. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , n o t h e y w i l l b e c a l l e d t h e r e i s a – we call them a work stream, there is a work stream within the Commission which consists of members of the legal team as well as investigators that is focusing on Law Enforcement Agencies and included in the Law Enforcement Agencies is the Hawks to say to what extent did they not do their job as part of this paralysis that we Page 68 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 are talking about and I know that there have consultations with senior people within the Hawks. been So it is in the plan that at some stage we are going to look at those things, what the – what I think the investigators – what I’m not sure about is whether they may have appreciated the particular special place that the PRASA cases must occupy in that investigation, namely the PRASA cases – the cases that PRASA placed before the SAPS, placed before the Hawks and said, investigate and what 10 happened so that the information will be shared with them but the information will be shared with them but they are c e r t a i n l y l o o k i n g a t h o w, f o r e x a m p l e , t h e H a w k s o p e r a t e d , to what extent were they paralysed who was responsible f o r t h a t , h o w d i d t h a t c o m e a b o u t , s a m e t h i n g w i t h t h e N PA and so on. MR MOLEFE: Chairperson maybe I should make the last point. CHAIRPERSON: MR MOLEFE: 20 Ja. If allowed, lest I get misunderstood, I need to credit the new leadership of the DPCI, I think they are busy rebuilding that institution, I think General Lebeya and quite a couple of other officers with whom I had m et and who are now back, very professionally attending to these cases. Show enforcement commitment Officer needs that to a exhibit, Page 69 of 203 professional so I think law we 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 acknowledge the work that they are doing including what t h e N PA i s d o i n g t o f i x a b r o k e n s y s t e m . S o i t s h o u l d n ’ t b e like all is lost they are doing nothing. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , n o t h a t ’ s f i n e I t h i n k w e – I think everyone understands that we certainly talk about the past what was – what may have happened during that time a n d c e r t a i n l y, I t h i n k , y o u a r e r i g h t t h a t t h e n e w l e a d e r s h i p in some of these institutions seem to be committed to fixing the problems that have been there and I think that is 10 w h y, I t h i n k t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i l l b e – i s g e t t i n g a l o t o f cooperation from them – from the leadership, thank you. ADV SONI SC: If I could take that issue f u r t h e r, Chairperson, what we will do is, we will ask Mr Molefe outside these proceedings to give us details of any of those interactions so that we can pursue it with the Law Enforcement work stream. Now what was the reaction to your request to the DPCI? This is the letter that we were looking at Mr Molefe, in other words, did they exceed to your request and pursue the matter? 20 MR MOLEFE: The – there was a matter that, as I indicated, which said that they were prioritising certain cases, maybe we should look for that exhibit and look at what the response is but up until my term of office ended t h e r e w a s n o p r o g r e s s i n t h i s m a t t e r. Of course, in the end, Chairperson, we had to institute action in the High Page 70 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Court of the Republic of South Africa to try and compel them to do their job asking them to explain to the Court, why is it that they are not doing their job. Of course, their response to that, was to raise a technicality that says – which now links what they are doing to what the new M i n i s t e r w a s – M r M a s w a n g a n y i w a s s a y i n g , t o s a y, y o u don’t have the authority to take us to Court because your Board did not have a quorum when this decision was taken. Of course, I must say it was incorrect because I had a full 10 mandate taken in 2015 which allowed us to investigate and to litigate on the matters arising out of the investigation. ADV SONI SC: So, because of their lack of response to your request for assistance from the Law Enforcement Authorities, you turned to the Courts, is that correct? MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: moment but I’m going to deal with the judgment in a effectively the relief you sought was a mandamus, an order that they must do their job as you had set out in your letter of request. 20 MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: Now – and then you’ve explained to the Chairperson that their response was to take a technicality – a technical point that the Court didn’t have – the Board didn’t have the locus standi to because it wasn’t a quorum. Page 71 of 203 bring the application 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: That is correct. ADV SONI SC: Now I just want to, Chairperson to take…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I j u s t w a n t t o s a y, o f c o u r s e i t w a s – i t must have been an indictment on the executive that a Board of a parastatal, a government entity had to go to Court to get another organ of State to do its job when a c t u a l l y, if you were getting proper support from the Minister responsible for PRASA, once you reported these 10 t h i n g s t o t h e M i n i s t e r t o s a y, t h e p o l i c e a r e n o t d o i n g anything about our cases, we have been – we have laid complaints, they are not doing anything, it would – it should have been the Minister who speaks to the Minister of Police and tells the President this is – the Hawks are not doing their job and then the Hawks should have been talked to, to say why you not doing your job and of course if Parliament was giving you support, Parliament could h a v e c a l l e d t h e H a w k s t o P a r l i a m e n t a s w e l l t o s a y, w h a t ’ s going on, why are you not doing this but to have a situation 20 where taxpayer ’s money now must be taken to pay lawyers in order to get an organ of state to do its job when another organ of state is saying, here is a problem it falls under our jurisdiction situation. please do your job. It is a very strange But of course, you – you had nowhere else to go by then that is why you had to go to court. Page 72 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. But to the c r e d i t o f S C O PA . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M O L E F E : S C O PA d i d c a l l t h e m C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: To c o m e a n d a c c o u n t o n w h a t t h e y w e r e doing. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: About these cases. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: General Ntlemeza was there. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: And Major General Khana. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MOLEFE: Of course, in their answers they sounded to have been at sixes and sevens because they were really not – Mr Ntlemeza had – General Ntlemeza had just recently been appointed. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR MOLEFE: And they were really not able to give – a n s w e r p r o p e r l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : To a n s w e r p r o p e r l y. M R M O L E F E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : To t h o s e q u e s t i o n s b u t S C O PA d i d a t t e m p t … Page 73 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: To g e t t h e m t o a d d r e s s i s s u e s b u t n o t h i n g happened after that. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . They were not called back later on t o s a y, y o u h a v e j u s t b e e n a p p o i n t e d m a y b e y o u d o n o t – you have not familiarised yourself with what has happened. Go back, come back in a month’s time, tell us what you have identified as going wrong and what you are going to do to fix it. 10 MR MOLEFE: They might have been called but this p a r t i c u l a r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M O L E F E : We w e r e t o g e t h e r i n t h e s a m e m e e t i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: Where of course they were disputing what I was reporting as being done by PRASA. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: Without any factual basis for their rejection. I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y w e r e c a l l e d b a c k l a t e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Later on yes. MR MOLEFE: And what they said when they went back. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR MOLEFE: The reality of the matter is that we are sitting h e r e t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Not much [intervenes] Page 74 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: There is no evidence of anything much. CHAIRPERSON: Unless, unless. MR MOLEFE: That has been done except what we have taken to the courts as PRASA and their matter of Swifambo which resulted in the setting aside of – of that contract it having been declared invalid. CHAIRPERSON: And if you had not taken the matter to court it looks like not – nothing would happen. Nothing would – nobody would have done anything. 10 MR MOLEFE: It would have been business as usual. CHAIRPERSON: It would have been business as usual. MR MOLEFE: Hm. ADV SONI SC: As you can see. Now the Chairperson has said that it is strange that you had to go to court to get the law enforcement of authorities who are other organs of state to – to do their job. They took a technical point. And just ask you – Chairperson may you refer to the judgment because the learned Judge in rejecting the point made by the police that there was no locus standi raises this issue 20 and I just would like to place it on record Chairperson. May I ask you to turn to page 206 of Bundle D which is part of the judge – which is page 3 of the judge – page 5 of the judgment of the court? CHAIRPERSON: What page in the bundle? ADV SONI SC: Page – the Bundle – the judgment starts at Page 75 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 page 202 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: 202? ADV SONI SC: 202. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: And paragraph 5 is the passage. But perhaps I should just place on record who the parties are Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: 10 At page 202 Mr Molefe you wills see that this is a case in the Gauteng Division of the High Court and it is case number 36337/2017 and the parties are PRASA, w h o i s t h e a p p l i c a n t a n d O U TA t h i s i s t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n undoing tax abuse which is an intervening party and the respondents are the Directorate for Priority Crimes I n v e s t i g a t i o n a n d t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y. I s t h a t correct? MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: Now again just as background to the judgment they had taken 2 points. 20 The first point is that y o u d i d n o t h a v e l o c u s s t a n d i a n d O U TA o u g h t n o t t o b e a d m i t t e d a s a n i n t e r v e n i n g p a r t y. I s t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d ? MR MOLEFE: That was correct. ADV SONI SC: gives a Now at paragraph the learned judge just comment about the approach adopted by the respondents and I would just like you to read that into the Page 76 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 record. MR MOLEFE: The honourable judge at paragraph 5 says: “I consider it inimical to the interest of justice that where matters of public interest are concerned organs of state indulge in costly squabbles of interlocutory and somewhat technical nature rather than engage with the merits of the matter in an expeditious, responsible and transparent m a n n e r. ” ADV SONI SC: 10 And in fact, again just to give it context t h e y h a d n o t f i l e d a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t i n r e g a r d t o t h e substance of your complaint as set out in the case. Am I right? MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: So at paragraph 14.1 on page 218 of the papers. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry just – I just want to. ADV SONI SC: And paragraph 14.1 Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: I think it is before we go there. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: They did not answer the substance of your c o m p l a i n t t h e y f i l e d a n a ff i d a v i t t a k i n g t h e s e p r e l i m i n a r y points but the Judge went on to deal with the merits in the m a t t e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Did they ask to be given an opportunity if Page 77 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 there are – if there are points, preliminary points were d i s m i s s e d t o b e g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o f i l e a n a ff i d a v i t t o answer the substance of the complaint. Or is that s o m e t h i n g y o u w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r. MR MOLEFE: I would not remember because at this stage. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: I think I had ceased to be the Chair of PRASA> C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h o k a y, o k a y. O k a y. B e c a u s e i t i s 10 quite strange. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Normally when a party who has been sued takes a – the kinds of points that they took they would nevertheless answer the substance of the allegations on the merits on the basis that if the court dismissing their preliminary points the courts should have their response to the complaint. Now one wonders whether the reason why t h e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e – t h e r e w a s n o a ff i d a v i t c o n t a i n i n g a response was that whatever they could say was going to be 20 embarrassing to them. In other words, they did not have a defence to the allegations on the merits that is why they did not put them up. MR MOLEFE: My – yes Chairperson my view is that they had no defence because all they could say is that no PRASA is wrong we are in fact intending to act on your Page 78 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 [intervenes]. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . ADV SONI SC: Again, I will address that issue through the judgment Chairperson the question of what was go happen to the substantive – their response to the substance of the trial. Again, at paragraph 14 the learned Judge deals with the question of costs and at 14.1 he again comments on the unacceptable approach adopted by the respondents. Could you read 14.1 into the record? 10 MR MOLEFE: Chairperson 14 – paragraph 14.1 of the Judgment reads as follows and it relates to the costs: “As indicated earlier in this judgment it is to be deplored that organs of state engage in interlocutory skirmishes with each other whilst the main battle is raging around them and they by their conduct delay any meaningful engagement therein.” ADV SONI SC: And then if you look at the order itself you will see on page 219 Mr Molefe in paragraph 15.1.1.2 an o r d e r i s m a d e a s t o w h e n t h e a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t i s t o b e 20 delivered. And you will see that the learned Judge gave t h e m j u s t 5 d a y s t o d e l i v e r t h e i r a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t . MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: And then I just want to refer to the last paragraph of the judgment and the order and can you just indicate what the order was because it seems to express Page 79 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 the learned Judge’s displeasure at the approach that the respondents have adopted? Paragraph 5 of page 220. MR MOLEFE: Chairperson paragraph 5 of page 220 it is paragraph 5 of the judgment and it relates to the order handed down by the court. It says: “The DPCI interlocutory is ordered applications to pay P R A S A’ s including the cost of the costs of the c o n d o n a t i o n a p p l i c a t i o n a n d P R A S A’s c o u n t e r a p p l i c a t i o n on the – on the scale as between attorney and client 10 including the costs of three counsels were employed.” CHAIRPERSON: It is a – it is a – it is an order – it is a very unusual or rare order for a court to make and – and it is made when a court strongly disapproves of the conduct of the party against whom the order is made. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It says: “On an attorney and client scale and it is costs of three counsels.” ADV SONI SC: Three counsels. 20 CHAIRPERSON: It is a – It may be – it may be a pity if person who did not do their job did not get to be the ones to pay those costs because in the end those costs come from the taxpayers it is the institution that pays. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That it is persons that fail to do their job. Page 80 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 So – but it reflects how displeased the Judge was with the conduct of DPCI. Okay so I thought I would just mention that. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It reflects very serious disapproval by the J u d g e o f D C P I ’ s c o n d u c t i n – i n t h e m a t t e r. MR MOLEFE: That is so Chairperson I agree. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm. ADV SONI SC: 10 Now you carry on at page 100 and – p a r a g r a p h 11 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t M r M o l e f e w h e r e y o u p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e D P C I t h e n f i l e d a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t a n d P R A S A f i l e d i t r e p l y i n g – s o r r y i t s a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t a n d P R A S A f i l e d i t t o a r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t b u t t h e m a t t e r h a s n o t b e e n t a k e n f u r t h e r. A n d t h e n y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t : “It is clear that the interim boards that were installed simply do not have the determination of the dismissed board to hold those world power to account.” MR MOLEFE: Chairperson that is right. A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y. 20 MR MOLEFE: I know the page… ADV SONI SC: That is at page 28 Mr Molefe. MR MOLEFE: At page 28. I found it and that is paragraph? A D V S O N I S C : P a r a g r a p h 11 5 r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f t h e p a g e . MR MOLEFE: I have … ADV SONI SC: S o e ff e c t i v e l y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g h e r e i s Page 81 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 w e p u r s u e d t h i s m a t t e r. We got it into court. We got past the technical stage but nothing has happened since then when you say this is partly due to the fact that the interim boards that succeeded yours – your board did not pursue the matter with the required enthusiasm in zeal. They are a public entity or a public board should do. MR MOLEFE: That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: But you see Mr Molefe this is really very serious. Even when your board had been dismissed nobody 10 c a n s a y t h a t w h o e v e r t h e d i ff e r e n t M i n i s t e r s o f Tr a n s p o r t have been after your board had left would not know that there was this litigation that was still pending. If they were really interested in dealing with corruption and if they were really interested in having the cases that you had sent to t h e H AW K S b e i n g p r o p e r l y i n v e s t i g a t e d a n d t h e r e l e v a n t Portfolio Committee in Parliament ought to have known that your board had launched an application and had since been dismissed. They ought to have kept an eye on what would the next board do about that litigation. 20 They ought to have – Parliament ought to have asked where is that litigation n o w, w h y i s i t n o t b e i n g f i n a l i s e d ? a s k e d t h e M i n i s t e r. They ought to have They ought to have called the interim board and asked them about these things if they were doing t h e i r o v e r s i g h t f u n c t i o n s p r o p e r l y. And if there seemed to b e t o o m u c h o f a d e l a y, t h e y o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n i n t e r e s t t o Page 82 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s a y w h y. W h y a r e t h e s e m a t t e r s n o t b e i n g f i n a l i s e d ? T h e s e are old matters. So it is as if – it creates an impression as if any corruption connected with PRASA was not supposed to be investigated. Any criminal cases arising from corruption in PRASA were not supposed to be investigated by the police, were not supposed to be investigated by the H AW K S . It creates that impression and it is very worrying. Some of these things I am saying you do not have to say anything but it is just the impression that one gets to say 10 you have Ministers, you have a government that almost [indistinct] says we are committed to fighting corruption. Yo u h a v e g o t p o i n t h e l p p a r t i e s t h a t a l m o s t [ i n d i s t i n c t ] saying we are committed to fighting corruption. Yo u h a v e got Ministers who will say the same thing in – on public platforms. Members of Parliament, everybody but here is a case from PRASA – here are cases. Here is a board that has been trying to get these cases investigated. Nobody c o m e s u p t o s a y, t h i s b o a r d h a s b e e n d i s m i s s e d i t h a d reported these cases let us pursue them. 20 that. Nobody does A n d i f t h e H AW K S d o n o t d o a n y t h i n g n o b o d y d o e s that. The President ought to have been interested to say to t h e H AW K S , h o w c a n t h e B o a r d o f P R A S A h a v e t o t a k e y o u to court to do your job? And when your board is not there the President is supposed to say to the Minister what is happening? Both the Minister of Police and the Minister of Page 83 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Tr a n s p o r t , w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g a b o u t t h o s e c a s e s t h a t w e r e r e p o r t e d t o t h e H AW K S ? Why are people not doing what obviously is what they are supposed to do? be interested in these things. interested in these things. Cabinet must Parliament must be The governing party must be interested in how its own employees perform their job. Are they displaying a fight against corruption that the party says it is committed to? Is that commitment to fighting corruption manifested in how people conduct themselves in 10 performing their job? I t i s v e r y, v e r y w o r r y i n g . I t i s v e r y, v e r y w o r r y i n g . Yo u m a y h a v e b e e n d o i n g y o u r j o b w h a t y o u considered to be your job but it raised a lot of things because it gave an opportunity to various institutions, various functionaries if they were committed to fighting corruption to join you, to assist you and when your board was – had been dismissed to take that baton and say we want to see those cases finalised. And if there were people who were not doing their job get them fired. Because you are employed to do a particular job and if you cannot do it 20 you must not be there. Now five years later not much has been done about these cases. And then of course when you get reports that say certain things about certain connections you have got to prove and see whether the reason why nothing has been done has got anything to do with who are being mentioned in regard to certain things. Page 84 of 203 It is very 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 concerning. Okay Mr Soni sometimes I say these things that I say that you – you might feel that you have to say something but you do not need to but I think you want to say something Mr Molefe. MR MOLEFE: Just two points Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: Chairperson I has think said. quite Those clearly who sing from that what the they are fighting corruption but not acting probably think that all that 10 they have to do is to sing a ritual. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR MOLEFE: About corruption. That is one point. The second point is that yesterday the Chairperson said that perhaps there is a need to look at the record of discussions of some of these Parliamentary committee. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: T h e – m y l a s t M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t w h e n h e w a s s t i l l a m e m b e r o f t h e P C O T, P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: Wa s v e r y m u c h o p p o s e d t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e PRASA Board was taking Law Enforcement Agencies to court to compel them to discharge their responsibilities and o b l i g a t i o n s t o t h e c i t i z e n s o f t h i s c o u n t r y. Probably those records are made available that could be picked up in those Page 85 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 discussions. But it shows that there was no willingness. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M O L E F E : To d e a l w i t h t h e s e i s s u e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: And that would also perhaps show that we read earlier on projects that Mr Montana was giving to Ms Gomes in his notes and one of those projects is called the M o l o t o C o r r i d o r. T h e M i n i s t e r, m y l a s t M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t M r M a s w a n g a n y i w h e n h e g o t i n t o o ff i c e t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e 10 projects that he wanted to see happen regardless of what N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d s a i d a b o u t t h e v i a b i l i t y o f t h a t p r o j e c t b e c a u s e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d s a i d t h i s i s n o t v i a b l e . But it is one of the projects they wanted to happen because all you needed is to commit capital to it. And those who are beneficiaries of it will get what they have to get out of it. ADV SONI SC: What happened to that project the Moloto Rail Project? MR MOLEFE: W e l l I – w h e n I l e f t o ff i c e w e h a d s a i d t o t h e M i n i s t e r – t h e e a r l i e r M i n i s t e r, M i n i s t e r D i p u o P e t e r s t h a t 20 this project is not doable based on the study that was done b y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. I do not know what is the status of t h a t p r o j e c t n o w. ADV SONI SC: But to your knowledge it has not been implemented? MR MOLEFE: It has not been implemented. Page 86 of 203 There was 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 t o w a r d s t h e l a s t d a y s o f m y o ff i c e s o m e p r o n o u n c e m e n t s that there will be the Chinese investors in that project with – but I have got no further information on that. ADV SONI SC: Mr Chairperson you will forgive me that I am going to go to a parallel concern that you have raised with the witness. The Chairperson has raised… CHAIRPERSON: I see we are at one but I suspect we about to finish. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Is my assessment correct? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Because then we can finish and allow Mr M o l e f e t o – t o g o . Ye s . ADV SONI SC: The Chairperson has raised with you the following concern that Law Enforcement Authorities did not do their job. Notwithstanding the fact that all these complains had been made to them and nobody followed up upon it. But there was two – there were two civil cases that PRASA had been involved in. 20 The one is the Swifambo matter in which you were successful to the tune of R3.5 billion. Do you know whether any attempts were made to secure the money that PRASA had paid those contractors for a contract that was said to have been cancelled? M R M O L E F E : C h a i r p e r s o n I – I d o n o t k n o w o f a n y e ff o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 87 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: To s e c u r e t h a t m o n e y – t o g e t t h a t m o n e y back. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: And the application was that the – the contract was unlawful, it needed to be set aside and the court did so. The second part of it was that the locomotives will be returned to the – our argument should be returned to t h e s u p p l i e r a n d t h e s u p p l i e r s h o u l d p a y b a c k t h e m o n e y. At the time R2.6 billion had already been paid and only 13 10 locomotives had been delivered when we said we do not want anymore. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: To b e d e l i v e r e d . In the interim if Counsel allows me. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: Vo s s l o h w a s b o u g h t b y a c o m p a n y – a S w i s s company called Stadler Rail. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: And when I was already now out of the Board 20 of PRASA I got communication that said Stadler Rail want to talk, they want to – to make good. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M O L E F E : O f t h e w r o n g s o f Vo s s l o h . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: That they were willing to consider paying Page 88 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 back the money but they also would not be willing to – they can leave those locomotives which are already in the country if there was any adjustment should be made for them to be usable, they were willing to do so. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MOLEFE: But suddenly the person who approached me said no, no they have now advised that they do not want to go that route. O b v i o u s l y, I would still have referred ...[intervenes] 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . a n d b e c a u se I w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a b l e t o m a k e a n y d e ci s i o n o n t h e m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R M O L E F E : H ’ m . S o . . . so . . . t h a t . . . t h a t m o n e y, I t h i n k u h , it i s. . . it is one of the issues that uh, perhaps C o m m i s si o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . s h o u l d a s k. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 M R M O L E F E : . . . t h e e x e c u t i v e a u t h o r i t y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R M O L E F E : . . . a n d t h e b o a r d t o e x p l a i n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: ..what is being done about it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Page 89 of 203 the 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: I k n o w t h a t M i n i st e r M a s w a n g a n yi w h e n h e c a m e h e r e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: . . . u h , o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e w a s s a yi n g t h a t “ n o , t h o s e l o c o m o t i v e s u h , a re o k a y. T h e y. . . t h e y s h o u l d be u s e d ”. And that was a g a i n st the b a c k d ro p of the j u d g m e n t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: ...[laugh] that had that uh...[intervenes] 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: . . . t h a t c o n t ra ct u m . . . u h - u h , so . . . s o u h , u m , that... that is what we have to deal with. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. S o t o t h e b e st o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d u h , I a c c e p t t h a t y o u sa y t h a t y o u r kn o w l e d g e m i g h t n o t b e u p t o d a t e b u t t o t h e b e st o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e , t h o s e l o c o m o t i v e s a r e p r o b a b l y si t t i n g s o m e w h e re u h , t h a t w e r e d e l i v e r e d . S i t t i n g s o m e w h e re . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R M O L E F E : U h , t h e o n e s t h a t h a d n o t b e e n d e l i v e r e d ye t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 And then those that had not been d e l i v e r e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR MOLEFE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: ...uh, remained undelivered b e ca u s e n o b o d y h a s u m , n o b o d y h a s d o n e a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e s e m a t t e r s a f t e r yo u r b o a r d h a d l e f t ? MR MOLEFE: Those that had not been Page 90 of 203 d e l i v e r e d a re 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 p r o b a b l y st i l l i n u h , u h , B a r c e l o n a . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: Uh, and those who were delivered . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: . . . a s I u n d e r st a n d i t , w i t h t h e u h , t h e r e w a s an application for the liquidation of Swifambo Rail. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . a n d t h e y w e r e p u t t o a u ct i o n . I d o n o t k n o w 10 h o w m a n y o f t h e m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . w e re s o l d i n t h a t a u ct i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. And uh... and... and the m o n e y, I t h i n k y o u sa i d R 2 , 6 m i l l i o n t h a t h a d a l re a d y b e e n paid? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct , C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: And that was already paid to Swifambo or to...? MR MOLEFE: That... that... that is so, Chairperson. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: Although, Swifambo was conduit. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R M O L E F E : H e s a i d , “ g e t t h e m o n e y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M O L E F E : a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 91 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: pass it on. MR MOLEFE: and he passed it on. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M O L E F E : M o st o f i t t o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 2 : 3 4 ] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. So that... that is the money that uh, y o u a re s a yi n g y o u . . . y o u d o n o t t h i n k a n y b o d y h a s d o n e a n yt h i n g t o g e t . . . t o g e t i t b a c k d e sp i t e t h e j u d g m e n t s d e cl a ri n g t h a t t h e c o n t r a ct w a s u h , i n v a l i d ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s co r r e ct . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: A n d I r e c a l l t h a t . [ l a u g h s] I re c a l l s e n d i n g a W h a t sA p p m e s sa g e t o t h e i n t e ri m c h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d u h , t h e l a st u h - u h b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kweyama. MR MOLEFE: Uh... CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kweyama. MR MOLEFE: Ms Kweyama. Um, and... and it was in the c o n t e xt o f a n a rt i cl e I h a d r e a d i n t h e . . . i n t h e p a p e r s t h a t u h , a p r e vi o u s b o a r d 20 would be ca l l e d t o p a r l i a m e n t t o a c c o u n t a n d I s a i d b u t I h a d a s k e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . f o r t h i s p u b l i c h e a r i n g . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MR MOLEFE: ...and I would welcome that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Page 92 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR MOLEFE: Um, and... and then I said, “well, yo u k n o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ I n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 3 : 3 9 ] MR MOLEFE: . . . y o u r n e xt st e p n o w i s t o g e t t h e . . . s e n d t h e se l o c o m o t i v e s b a c k a n d g e t y o u r m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . Ye s. M R M O L E F E : . . . i n y o u r c o u n t r y ”. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR MOLEFE: H’m. But at the end of that there was nothing 10 more uh, that was done. CHAIRPERSON: Ja . I m e a n , c e rt a i n l y, t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o s c a r c i t y o f st a t e f u n ct i o n a ri e s a n d b o d i e s w h o a r e i n t e r e st e d in that money being recovered uh, from the p r e si d e n t t h r o u g h t h e m i n i s t e r t o t h e r e l e v a n t D G ’s t h r o u g h t h e b o a r d u m , t o s a y t h e c o u rt s h a v e m a d e a d e cl a r a t i o n u h , st e p s s h o u l d b e t a ke n t o r e c o v e r t h a t m o n e y. U h , o b vi o u s l y, t h o s e w h o h a ve g o t t h e m o n e y m i g h t re s i st b u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y. . . t h e y w i l l r e si st i s n o g r o u n d f o r. . . f o r. . . f o r p e o p l e t o d o n o t h i n g , t o t r y a n d g e t . . . g e t i t 20 b a c k. H ’ m . ADV SONI SC: M a y i t p l e a s e , C h a i r. T h e s e c o n d m a t t e r, again parallel to what the Chairperson raised about, the c ri m i n a l i s s u e s i s, i n t h e S i ya n g e n a m a t t e r, t h e a m o u n t i n v o l v e d , i f I u n d e r st a n d i t n o w, w i t h i n t e re st a n d so o n , i s i n the region of R 6 billion. Wo u l d t h a t b e a b o u t c o rr e ct f ro m Page 93 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g ? M R M O L E F E : T h e . . . t h a t i s t h e e st i m a t e d u h , a m o u n t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: N o w i n r e g a r d t o t h a t , t h a t i s s u e , y o u f i r st t o o k t o c o u rt i n 2 0 1 6 . T h e r e w e r e t e c h n i c a l p o i n t s t a k e n a n d y o u . . . t h e n , a f t e r y o u l e f t , t h e si t t i n g re vi e w w a s f i l e d a n d t h a t i s n o w t o b e h e a r d i n A u g u st . Do you know why it is t a k e n s o l o n g t o g e t t h a t m a t t e r i n c o u rt a n d d e b a t e d b e f o r e a judge? MR MOLEFE: 10 A s I re ca l l i t a g a i n i t w a s u h , a . . . a p ro b l e m . U h , w h e n a n i n t e r i m b o a rd w a s a p p o i n t e d b e f o r e t h e i n t e ri m board of Ms Kweyama. U h , t h a t i n t e ri m b o a rd w a n t e d t o e n t e r i n t o n e g o t i a t i o n s t o p a y m o n e y t o S i ya n g e n a a n d n o t t o p r o c e e d u h , w i t h t h e . . . w i t h t h e u h , ci vi l a ct i o n . Uh, and perhaps that then links uh, very well with the e vi d e n c e o f m i st e r. . . M r H o l e l e , w h e r e h e s a y s t h a t u h- u h , M r M o o d l e y c a m e t o d e m an d p a y m e n t u h , o n t h e b a si s o f what they said, the guarantees that a... that a PRASA had... had given to uh, Siyangena and we said also ballooned by that time to R1,5 billion. 20 ADV SONI y e st e r d a y. SC: So what we h a ve is probably Yo u d o n o t h a ve a p e r m a n e n t C E O . h a ve a ct i n g C E O ’s. raised Yo u o n l y Yo u d o n o t h a v e a p e r m a n e n t b o a r d . Yo u o n l y h a ve a ct i n g b o a r d s. A n d f o r f i v e y e a r s, e ff e ct i v e l y, n o t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e t o s e cu r e o r P R A S A w h a t i s i t d u e . To h a v e cri m i n a l s b e h i n d b a r s a n d t o g e t t h e m o n e y b a c k o n Page 94 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 b e h a l f o f t a xp a y e r s. MR MOLEFE: C h a i r p e r so n , i n r e s p e ct o f t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t i v e , y e s. F o r f i v e y e a r s a p p r o xi m a t e l y t h e r e w a s n o G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t i v e b u t i n t h e i n t e r v e n i n g p e ri o d t h e r e h a d b e e n t w o u h , i n t e ri m b o a r d s. A n d t h e r e i s a l so n o w u m , t h e a d m i n i st r a t o r w h o i s l i k e a s u b st i t u t e b o a r d . S o a t t h a t l e ve l o f a c c o u n t i n g a u t h o ri t y, t h e r e w e r e u h - u h , p e o p l e w h o . . . w h o s h o u l d h a v e a ct e d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: billion. But yo u kn o w, two comma so m e t h i n g O n e c o m m a . . . y o u a re t a l ki n g l o t s o f m o n e y h e r e , t a x p a y e r ’s m o n e y. Why despite all of this being well-known to the P o rt f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o f Tra n s p o rt s t o m e m b e r s o f p a rl i a m e n t t o u h , u h , t h e e x e c u t i ve , w h e t h e r t h e e x e c u t i v e a t t h a t t i m e w a s t h e e x e c u t i v e n o w, w h y i s t h e re n o cl e a r a ct i o n t h a t i s known in the public domain is being pursued to get this money back because this is taxpayers money? S o t h a t . . . t h a t i s p a rt o f t h e w o rr y. W h y. . . w h y d o y o u 20 h a ve f i v e y e a r s w i t h o u t a n i n st i t u t i o n h a vi n g a C E O ? Why i n t e ri m b o a r d s ? I m e a n t h e se t h i n g s. . . t h e se q u e st i o n s j u st m a k e y o u think that there may be quite something big behind this whole thing. T h i s. . . h o w. . . h o w c a n . . . h o w c a n t h e r e b e n o v i si b l e Page 95 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 a ct i o n t o re c o v e r R 2 , 6 b i l l i o n l o st b y a n o r g a n o f st a t e f r o m d i ff e r e n t f u n ct i o n a ri e s a n d u h , st a t e o r g a n s ? A n d ye t w e k n o w t h e p e o p l e o n t h e g r o u n d h a ve l o t s o f n e e d s t h a t t h e y n e e d t o b e . . . t h a t n e e d m o n e y. W h y d o e s i t . . . w h a t . . . w h y. . . w h y h a v e t h i s b e e n j u st l e f t h a n g i n g ? N o b o d y s e e m s t o s a y, “h a n g o n . M r M o l e f e ’s b o a r d w a s d o i n g . We r e m e m b e r w h a t H e i s n o l o n g e r t h e re . But what has happened to that money?” M R M O L E F E : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: “Who is following this up?” Why is it like... l i k e e v e r y o n e j u st w a n t s t h a t t o b e f o rg o t t e n ? C o m m i s si o n m u st l o o k i n t o t h a t . So the... the Who has been doing what and why have they not been doing... who has not been doing w h a t t h e y a r e s u p p o se d t o d o ? B e c a u s e , I m e a n , w i t h t h e C o vi d -1 9 p r o b l e m , I m e a n , a l o t o f m o n e y h a s b e e n d i v e rt e d f ro m w h a t p r o j e ct s t h a t i t was going to... to... to do. Now all of that money would have been needed but w i t h o u t . . . e v e n w i t h o u t C o vi d - 1 9 u h , y o u k n o w, i f . . . i f . . . i f a n y 20 o r g a n st a t e l o s e s m o n e y i l l e g a l l y t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e l o st t h e r e . T h e re s h o u l d b e a cl e a r d e t e r m i n a t i o n t o . . . t o re c o v e r it. M R M O L E F E : Ye s. H ’ m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I g u e s s M r M o l e f e [ l a u g h s] y o u m a y b e l o o ki n g a t m e a n d m a y b e f e e l i n g t h a t I a m . . . m a yb e Page 96 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 f e e l i n g s o m e f r u st ra t i o n t h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t . [ l a u g h s] M R M O L E F E : I h a v e p e rm a n e n t l y. [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. [ l a u g h s] MR MOLEFE: I can... I can s e n se the C h a i r p e r s o n ’s f ru st r a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MOLEFE: B u t t h e re i s a l so s o m e t h i n g v e r y i n t e r e st i n g . I m u st s a y t o c o u n s e l t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 10 MR MOLEFE: . . . w e h a d s a i d w e w o u l d co n n e ct t h e d o t s. I t h i n k C h a i r p e r s o n h a s c o n n e ct e d a l o t o f d o t s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R M O L E F E : . . . f o r u s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M R M O L E F E : S o w e a re n o t g o i n g t o h a ve t o s p e n d a l o t o f t i m e o n t h a t . [ l a u g h s] CHAIRPERSON: [ l a u g h s] O k a y. [ l a u g h s] We l l , I a m h a p p y i f t h a t i s. . . j a , b u t i f t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g l e f t w e c a n . . . w e c a n finalise it. 20 ADV SONI SC: you would Ye s. like to B u t w h y. . . y o u . . . y o u y e st e r d a y s a i d be given that o p p o rt u n i t y and the C h a i r p e r s o n h a s l a i d t h e st a g e f o r y o u t o . . . t o c o n n e ct t h e dots as you see it. We may see it d i ff e r e n t l y and the C h a i rp e r s o n d i ff e r e n t l y f ro m m e b u t i t w o u l d b e h e l p f u l t o h a v e y o u r Page 97 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 vi e w s, yo u b e i n g a t t h e c o r e p h a s e o f o n e o f t h e b i g g e st battles that st a t e - o w n e d entities have had with the e x e cu t i v e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : Wo u l d y o u . . . w o u l d y o u t h e n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] M R M O L E F E : [ I n d i st i n ct ] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. H’m. H’m. MR MOLEFE: C h a i r p e r so n , u h , t h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h . Uh, t h e . . . w e h a ve t r a v e r s e d i n a . . . i n o u r e vi d e n c e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. MR MOLEFE: U h , a n u m b e r o f u h , ke y u h , a r e a s o f . . . o f what happened. Uh, we... we spoke about, in the course of e vi d e n c e u h , a r e p o rt c a l l e d P R A S A u h , i n t u r m o i l b u t u h , w h i c h i s, I t h i n k u h , S S 6 A u h , P M 1 6 , I t h i n k w e s a i d . T h a t . . . that is what it is going to be. A n d i n t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t w e . . . w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h , w e h a ve s e e n a l o t o f c o rr e l a t i o n o f w h a t . . . w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g i n a n u m b e r o f i n st i t u t i o n s o r w h a t m i n i st e r s w e re d o i n g u h , o r w h a t P o rt f o l i o C o m m i t t e e h a s o m i t t e d t o d o o r f a i l e d t o 20 date. I speak of parliament and so on. A n d a l l o f i t , w h e n o n e l o o k s a t i t a n d . . . a n d o f c o u r se w e . . . w e g o o ve r s o m e e xh i b i t s i n t h e . . . i n t h e . . . i n t h e f i l e s here, linked to for example uh, the e vi d e n c e of Mr M a m a b o l o . I w i l l n o t g o s p e ci f i c a l l y t o t h a t e x h i b i t . W h e n o n e l o o k s a t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d u p u n t i l n o w, Page 98 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 i t a l l st a rt s w i t h t h e b o a r d o f d i r e ct o r s o n N o v e m b e r 2 0 . . . N o v e m b e r u h , . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 5 : 2 0 ] 2 0 1 4 , n é ? 2 0 1 4 . D e m a n d i n g a s s u r a n ce t h a t t h e R 2 , 4 b i l l i o n t h a t t h e G r o u p E x e c u t i v e , C h i e f E x e c u t i ve t h r o u g h t h e F S A I P w a s re c o m m e n d i n g f o r a p p r o v a l b y t h e b o a r d u h , o st e n si b l e f o r the modernisation uh, of Braamfontein depot that would have i n cl u d e d s o m e c o n st r u ct i o n w o r k u h , t h e . . . T h a t . . . t h a t w o u l d a l s o h a v e i n cl u d e d t h e p a t c h e s o f ra i l s a n d t u r n o u t s. U m , a n d w e s a i d , “ y o u sa y t h i s i s u r g e n t . 10 We agree.” But as a b o a rd we cannot j u st agree to R 2 , 4 b i l l i o n b e i n g s p e n d w i t h o u t b e i n g a s s u re d t h a t t h e p r o c e s s f o l l o w e d w a s p ro p e r. That there was properly uh, c o n d u ct e d o n . . . o n t h i s t e n d e r. A n d b e i n g t h e C h a i rp e r s o n , o f c o u r s e , w e h a v e b e e n lied to. T h e r e s u l t w a s t h a t w e h a d st o p t h a t u h - u h , p r o c u r e m e n t f o r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 6 : 4 3 ] f o r t h a t t i m e b e ca u s e i t h a d t o b e d o n e p r o p e rl y. T h a t h a d n o t b e e n d o n e p r o p e rl y a n d t h e r e p o rt s w e re t h e r e . S o t h a t i s t h a t s i d e . T h e s e c o n d i s s u e i s, w h e n 20 w e l e a r n t a b o u t t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt o f t h e p u b l i c p r o t e ct o r a n d w e i n si st t h a t t h e G r o u p C E O w h o h a s h a d t h a t r e p o rt a n d w h i c h r a i s e s a n u m b e r o f q u e st i o n s t h a t P R A S A h a d n o t re s p o n d e d t o a d e q u a t e l y, b e m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o t h e n e w board. There are two ke y events Page 99 of 203 happened and uh, 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 i m m e d i a t e l y w e r e c e i v e d . . . I . . . t h e b o a r d re c e i v e d t h e l e t t e r o f M r Mo n t a n a s a yi n g u h , h e w i l l n o t s e e k e xt e n si o n o f h i s c o n t r a ct . Of course, he had verbally told me when I had just b e e n a p p o i n t e d c h a i r p e r so n o f t h e b o a r d t h a t u h , yo u k n o w, h e . . . h e . . . h e h a d b e e n t h e r e f o r t o o l o n g . H e h a d p r e vi o u sl y wanted to leave but uh, the... the board at the time uh, p r e v a i l e d o n h i m t o st a y. So that is that. 10 N o w, w e a s a b o a rd a c c e p t m i st e r. . . t h e f a ct t h a t M r M o n t a n a w i l l n o t s e e k a n e w c o n t r a ct a n d t h a t u h , w e w i l l n o t g i ve t h a t c o n t ra ct b u t a l s o , o f c o u r s e , n o w w e a r e b e g i n n i n g t o l o o k a t t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t h a ve t o b e d o n e , a ri si n g o u t o f u h , u m , t h e . . . t h e re p o rt o f t h e . . . o r t h e g e n e r a l a n d o f c o u r se u h , w h a t u h , w h a t t h e p u b l i c p r o t e ct o r l a t e r o n s a i d . The... annexures to the r e p o rt the a ff i d a vi t of of m i st e r. . . uh, Mr the... the... Mamabolo the u h -u h , i n d i c a t e s t h a t f ro m t h a t t i m e o n w a rd s, M r M o n t a n a b e ca m e very busy to meet with a range of organisations uh-uh, one 20 o f t h e m b e i n g S ATAW U , a u n i o n t h a t w a s b e n e f i t i n g o u t o f P R A S A co n t r a ct t h r o u g h u h , B l a c k S t a r a n d u h , i t ’s B a s h u m i Tr u st . A n d h e w a s b ri n g i n g i n g r o u p i n g s l i ke y o u r M K MVA which... which is supposed to be the former military veterans uh, of the... the ANC. U h , t h e st u d e n t o r g a n i s a t i o n c a l l e d Page 100 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 COSAS, the Congress of South A f ri c a n S t u d e n t s, an o r g a n i s a t i o n w h i c h I m e n t i o n e d e a rl i e r o n i n m y e v i d e n ce , c a l l e d t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n C o m m u t e r O r g a n i s a t i o n l e d b y a man, Stephen Sangweni. They attempted also to draw the South A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l Ta x i C o rp o r a t i o n (S A N TA C O ) i n t o t h i s co m p a n y. T h e ca m p a i g n i s t o s a y, “ b ri n g M o n t a n a b a c k. We w a n t h i m b a c k. ” And 10 we m u st d e m o n st ra t e that there are many i n st i t u t i o n s t h a t s a y t h a t “t h i s i s o u r m a n ”. O f c o u r s e , I . . . I . . . which is uh, document I have not tabled but if the counsel might want to do so. It is a small thing. So again a... a w h i st l e - b l o w e r ’s r e p o rt t h a t s h o w s h o w d i r e ct l y M r M o n t a n a h i m se l f w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h i s t h i n g . A n d h o w i n o n e m e e t i n g w h e n h e w a s c o n f ro n t e d b y S ATAW U i n C a p e To w n , h e s a y s. . . a n d w h e n t h e y s a y t o h i m “b u t w h y d o y o u w a n t u s t o s u p p o rt yo u r c a m p a i g n b e ca u s e y o u t o l d t h e b o a r d yo u w a n t t o g o ? T h e b o a r d a c c e p t e d y o u r w i s h ”. 20 A n d h e s a i d , “j a , I b l u n d e r e d . I d i d t h a t b u t I t h o u g h t that this board would... the chairman and the board would p e r s u a d e m e . . . o r t ry t o p e r s u a d e m e t o st a y o n . ” T h e C h a i rp e r s o n w i l l r e c a l l t h a t t h i s i s si m i l a r t o w h a t I h a v e s a i d i n m y e a rl i e r e vi d e n c e o f h o w h i s c o n t r a ct e a rl i e r o n h a d b e e n e xt e n d e d b e c a u s e h e s a i d t o t h e b o a r d h e w a s Page 101 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 l e a vi n g . T h e b o a r d u h , s a i d , “ n o , b u t w h y a r e y o u l e a vi n g ? ” and then he... he went to... he came with the bogus uh, a f a k e u h , o ff e r o f a j o b f r o m a c o m p a n y ca l l e d G i b s o n F a t a l F e rt i l i s e r s. U h , a n d t h e b o a r d h a d t o t h e n m a t c h a n d a ct u a l l y d i d b e t t e r. . . t o b e t t e r w h a t h e s a i d w a s t h e o ff e r a n d t h a t w a s n o t t ru e . S o i t i s cl e a r t h a t h e t h o u g h t h e w o u l d d o a si m i l a r thing uh, to this board. 10 N o w, I a m . . . I a m . . . I a m d e a l i n g w i t h t h a t . A n d t h e n , o f co u r s e , y o u b e i n g t o re a l i s e t h a t y o u r P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e i s b e g i n n i n g t o t a l k h i s l a n g u a g e u h , w h i ch . . . w h i c h i s i n t h i s t h i n g . U m , s o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: Wo u l d the st a t e m e n t being the . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR MOLEFE: The PRASA in Tu rm o i l . T h e re u h . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, I r e m e m b e r. Mi st e r, s o r ry. Not... do n o t s p e a k t o o f a r a w a y f ro m t h e m i c o t h e r w i s e t h e t r a n s cr i p t s 20 t o t h e r e co r d w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g . M R M O L E F E : J a , i n t u rm o i l . B u t m a y b e I s h o u l d t r y q u i c k l y t o b ri n g t h e s e m a t t e r s t o g e t h e r. To s a y t h a t t h e re i s a c o m m o n t h r e a d t h a t c o n n e ct s u h , t h e . . . t h e t e r m i n a t i o n o f u h , t h e c o n t ra ct o f M r M o n t a n a , t h e a c ce p t a n c e o f h i s w i sh b y t h e b o a r d u h - u h , h i s s o - c a l l e d P R A S A i n Tu rm o i l . Page 102 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 T h e s e ri e s o f m e d i a a t t a c k s u h , o n . . . o n . . . o n . . . o n the Board of PRASA, all of which are a substance uh, is i n f o r m e d b y. . . b y u h , t h i s d o c u m e n t c a l l e d P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l . T h e . . . t h e r e f u s a l b y t h e Mi n i st e r o f Tr a n s p o rt t o a l l o w t h e B o a r d o f P R A S A t o a p p o i n t a G r o u p C E O , i g n o ri n g t h e p ro c e s s o f i n t e r v i e w s t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d l a t e r a g a i n that company is not ready for that. And then, enforcing on the Board of PRASA an a p p o i n t e e w h o i s f r o m h e r d e p a rt m e n t t o b e t h e G r o u p , 10 a ct i n g G r o u p C E O . And one of the issues that the board d i s a g r e e d f r o m t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 4 : 3 8 ] w i t h t h e m i n i st e r o n , w a s w h e n s h e w ro t e t o . . . t o t h e b o a r d t o s a y t h a t u h , s h e h a s b e e n t o l d t h a t t h e b o a r d i s i n t e r f e ri n g i n o p e r a t i o n s. Now that again is linked to the document of PRASA in Tu r m o i l . T h e n e w p e r s o n t h a t t h e m i n i st e r a p p o i n t s t a k e s q u e u e f r o m t h e s e d o cu m e n t s a n d b e g i n s t o c o m p l a i n t h a t u h , t h e b o a rd i s i n t e rf e r i n g . T h e m i n i st e r d o e s n o t st o p t h e r e . She goes on to s a y, “I h a v e d i r e ct e d t h e a ct i n g G r o u p C E O t o r e vi e w t h e 20 p r a ct i c e s. . . t h e p e rf o rm a n c e o f t h e b o a rd o n g o v e r n m e n t s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e b e st p r a ct i c e s t o d et e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e y c o m p l y w i t h t h e b e st p r a ct i c e s ” . B a si c a l l y s a yi n g , t h e b o a rd i s u n d e r a d m i n i st r a t i o n o f an appointee of the m i n i st e r. So emasculated. Page 103 of 203 the board is being 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 T h e n y o u h a ve a s e ri e s o f m e e t i n g s o f t h e P o rt f o l i o Committee. T h e i r a t t a c k t h e re a l s o i s f i n d i n g i t s g e n e si s o n t h i s d o c u m e n t , P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l . This document, in one page where Mr Montana c o m p l a i n s, r e f e r s t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h e b o a r d m e e t s t o o o f t e n . I t s h o u l d n o t b e m e e t i n g m o r e t h a n f o u r t i m e s a y e a r. So those members of the PCOT latched on the a r g u m e n t o f Mr M o n t a n a w h i c h s h o w s t h a t w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h t h e c o o rd i n a t e d u h , c a m p a i g n . 10 T h e n y o u h a v e . . . f o l l o w i n g t h i s P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l , a m e e t i n g co n v e n e d b y t h e p re s i d e n t , w h o s e e xp r e s s p u r p o s e i s t o sa y, “ b ri n g h i m b a c k ”. Uh, and it is saying because he says in PRASA in Tu r m o i l , “I a m t h e b e st . . . t h e b e st t h i n g e v e r t h a t t h i s co u n t r y h a s h a d i n t h e ra i l b u si n e s s a n d I u n d e r st a n d a l s o t h e . . . y o u r p o l i t i c a l u h , e c o n o m i c d e m a n d s. Uh, your political si t u a t i o n c h a l l e n g e s o f re g i o n a l i n t e g r a t i o n . and the I am the only one who c a n i m p l e m e n t t h e d e ci s i o n s o f t h e A f ri c a n U n i o n . 20 re g i o n a l Nobody e l s e h e r e ”. And he says that this board knows nothing. The b o a r d l e d b y M o l e f e k n o w s n o t h i n g . A l l i t kn o w s i s u h - u h , t o i n t e rf e re . A n d t h e y s a y t h a t w e a r e c a u si n g d i vi si o n s a m o n g st management and so on. It is again in this document. Page 104 of 203 Uh, 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 a n d i n t h i s d o cu m e n t , t h e y s a y t h a t t h e r e i s a s t a t e o f p a r a l y si s i n t h e c o m p a n y b e ca u s e t h e b o a r d i s f i g h t i n g w i t h management which is not true. S o t h e p re s i d e n t , Mr J e ff R a d e b e , c a l l e d u s t o t h a t meeting. T h e y a l l o w h i m t o p re s e n t a l o n g s p e e ch i n f o r m e d b y P R A S A i n Tu r m o i l . A n d i t i s a l l a b o u t b a d t h e c h a i rm a n o f t h e b o a rd a n d t h e b o a r d i s. O f c o u r s e , t o so m e e xt e n t , a l s o s a yi n g h o w b a d t h e M i n i st e r u h , o f Tr a n sp o rt w a s. S o i t g o e s o n l i k e t h a t . T h e n 10 y o u . . . yo u h a v e t h e m i n i st e r w h o l a t e r o n s a y s t o u s “ st o p y o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n s ”. A n d sh e s a y s s o . U h , a g a i n t h e r e , I h a ve g i v e n . . . there is a document here that shows uh-uh, one of the re g u l a r b ri e f i n g s to the m i n i st e r uh, on what we were u n co v e ri n g i n o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n s a n d st e p s t h a t w e h a v e taken. M y l e t t e r, a l s o , i n re p l y t o t h e m i n i st e r w h e n h e s a i d , “ cl o se d o w n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s ” d e t a i l e d t h e i m p o rt a n ce o f t h e se i n v e st i g a t i o n s a n d w h a t w e h a d d o n e . 20 A n d i t a l s o sa y s t o h e r “ b y t h e w a y, d o n o t p l e a i g n o r a n c e ”. that we N o t i n s o m a n y w o r d s, o f c o u r s e , b u t y o u k n o w have been g i vi n g you re p o rt s and it sets out meetings uh-uh that had taken place one at the international a i rp o rt . O n e a t t h e We r k s m a n s’ o ff i c e s. R i v o n i a O ff i ce s. Page 105 of 203 The other one at 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A n d t h e se r e p o rt s w e re r e v e a l i n g s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t C h a i r p e r s o n w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t a n d c o n n e ct i n g t h e d o t s, s a yi n g t h e b e h a vi o u r h e r e a p p e a r s t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e r e a r e some people in powerful places who are benefiting and would not want action to be taken. So I part that, the minister having failed to do that, look for other ways of dealing with us. to law enforcement referred 10 But before that, we make an application to. agencies Nothing and happens. the N PA , Instead, which we they get emasculated, good people are removed who would have been able to ensure that action is taken, they are removed. Those who are brought in, who are cronies, do nothing. T h e r e i s s y s t e m a t i c a l s o w e a k e n i n g o f t h e N PA , o f course, following the appointment of Mr Shaun Abrahams. So all of these actions seemed to point to protect the protection of certain individual of a group – certain individuals or a group of people or a section of a people. As if that is not enough, the minister now appearing to be frustrated, that none of their tricks in the book are 20 working, summarily dismisses the board of directors and, having done so, does nothing about the work that that board had done. But it does not end there. We have the governing p a r t y, w e h a v e t h e g o v e r n m e n t , w e h a v e h a d s e n i o r p e o p l e who are officials, all of these things were reported to them. Page 106 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 So therefore, when you connect all of these dots they suggest that there might well be a common purpose served by this corruption that is happening and none of these people with the authority to make decisions wanted to upset the applecart, they wanted to preserve that continuing as it was continuing regardless of how much m i s e r y w a s c a u s e d t o t h e p o o r p e o p l e o f t h i s c o u n t r y, t h e p o o r c o m m u t e r s o f t h i s c o u n t r y, b y b i l l i o n s w h i c h h a v e been siphoned off which should have served our people. 10 But that situation also suggests that if there are good people out there, they are overwhelmed by the bad apples so much that the bad apples have more power than them and therefore they are unable to assert their authority over the bad apples. But in a broader context, what does this say to us? It says to us the democracy that so many paid so dearly for is being undermined, is being incapacitated but it also says t h a t y o u a r e a c t u a l l y, b y f a i l i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e s o r t s o f things, creating a situation where you might end up with an 20 autocratic rule in this country where the constitution of the c o u n t r y, people the institution become of public meaningless to representation the p o o r, that of our they no longer serve as the voice of those who elected people who serve in those institutions. We do not have to go too far but to look just here, Page 107 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 the United States and see what is happening there and I m e n t i o n e d t h i s y e s t e r d a y, t h a t t h e r e i s a d a n g e r i n a l l o w i n g individuals to have unassailable powers in a democratic o r d e r. In fact, in the debate of the impeachment, many speakers, speaker after speaker said when we adopted the constitution of the United States of America we were not a d o p t i n g a c o n s t i t u t i o n t h a t w o u l d i n s t i t u t e a m o n a r c h y, s o we do not want a king, we want a commander-in-chief who is the president and representing our people. 10 I f y o u l o o k a t w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g i n B r a z i l n o w, y o u have a president who does not care how much Covid-19 is killing our people. S o , C h a i r p e r s o n , i n s u m m a r y, t h e r e f o r e , w h a t t h e evidence that we have given here points to is that state capture seems to have successfully captured key people in t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y a n d t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y, l h a v i n g b e e n captured, allowing further capturing of organs of state through which it has to execute its responsibilities as a government of the day or as the state. 20 So it, itself, has been paralysed and it also says that. I am not going to make many people happy but it also says that the governing party and various political parties need to take a lesson from relief of this corruption fight that political unless you institutions, deal frontally particularly with those Page 108 of 203 corruption who have in the 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 authority to act on behalf of the poor people, using parliament, using other organs of state as instruments to advance the interest of the poor people and to protect their wishes expressed parliament. in term after term election in Unless you deal with that question within the parties themselves, this corruption is not going to end. It is not going to end. So – and I say I am not making myself – I am not covering myself in glory in saying what I am saying, but it 10 has to be said because we have tried to allow things to happen, expecting people would act in a manner that is ethical, that reflects courage by those put in office to lead that places the interests of the people and the country first rather than sectarian interests of little groups in the c o u n t r y. T h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n f i r s t , w e w i l l t r y t o get that to be done. It is not happening. So we need to have a crescendo of voices now that s a y a c t a n d a c t n o w, y o u a r e w r o n g , d o n o t s i n g u s a r i t u a l about how you are opposed to corruption. 20 Demonstrate with your action, demonstrate in how you hold organs of state, including boards and management of the SOEs, accountable, that you mean business, as professed in your anti-corruption statement. I thought I should make that point and to say all of what we have seen starts with the removal of Mr Montana. Page 109 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 The question that then would arise is was he placed there for a purpose rather than that of running this all important public good delivering organisation and to serve the poor people of o u r c o u n t r y, to ensure that we achieve the objectives set out in the mandate of the legal succession t o S o u t h A f r i c a n Tr a n s p o r t S e r v i c e s A c t . CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Molefe, you might not have covered yourself in glory by saying certain things in the eyes of certain people but I think certainly a lot of what 10 you have said needs to be said and in the eyes of those who put the interests of the country first and in the eyes of those who are s e r v i n g t h e p o o r. really committed to serving the public, Some of the things you have said should m a k e t h e m v e r y h a p p y. Part of what you have said raises issues that I continue to be concerned with as I look at what this Commission is doing and what it should be doing and what areas it should be focusing on and I know that for quite some time I have been placing a lot of emphasis on the 20 issue of the role of parliament in terms of oversight but it may be that part of the problem is that if a senior official w i t h i n t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y, f o r e x a m p l e , i s a w a r e t h a t a n o t h e r s e n i o r m e m b e r o f t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r t y o r a l e a d e r, one of the leaders is involved in wrongdoing, he or she will be afraid to do what is right and say but you cannot do this Page 110 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 and the organisation must take action when you, as a member of the organisation, do this because you are bringing the name of this organisation into disrepute. He or she may be afraid to take that stand because maybe she needs or he needs that leader in order to progress in her political career or he or she needs the supporters of that leader to vote for him or her next time she wants or he wants to ascend to a higher position or next time he or she wants to have his or her name put in 10 the list of those to go to parliament or to the legislature. And if I am in a parliament and I am member of the governing party and I see governing p a r t y, who is in that somebody government, who within is in the the executive, whether the person is President or whether the person is a minister and I know my obligation to hold them to account and I want – I am thinking about doing my job p r o p e r l y, I get scared because that person, if he is President, he is the person that I rely on to make me a m i n i s t e r o r t o m a k e m e a d e p u t y m i n i s t e r, o r h e a n d h i s 20 supporters are the people that I rely on Chairperson of a committee in parliament. to be made If I stand up and do my job properly in parliament in keeping with the oath of office that I have taken when I became a member of parliament, which effectively says the country first, the people first, I decide not to do my job properly because I Page 111 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 c a n n o t b e m i n i s t e r, I c a n n o t b e d e p u t y m i n i s t e r, I c a n n o t be chairperson of the portfolio committee if I displease these people if I ask them difficult questions, they are going to ask me, are you a member of my party or are you a member of the opposition? And if I am a minister and I see another colleague w h o i s a m i n i s t e r, t h a t h e o r s h e i s n o t d o i n g t h e r i g h t things, here is a board that is supposed to have enough members to have a quorum, he or she is not appointing 10 those members, the board has to go to court in order to get a job done that is supposed to be done by an organ of state, I do not say anything even if I am aware because I read about these things in the newspapers because I know that if I raise those things I am going to be unpopular within government, within the executive or within the governing party and I will be limiting my career or I will be without a job if I get fired either for this or for something else because I am asking too many questions. I am supposed to maybe mind my own business, 20 look at my own department. I am not supposed to ask these questions. And if I am the President and I see that a certain department is not run properly and that minister is not doing a proper job maybe I will not fire them because they have a constituency that I am going to need when next Page 112 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 time I want to be re-elected as President. If I take action against that minister who has got that kind of support, he or she is going to go out and mobilise support so that when next I want to be elected or re-elected as President, I will not succeed, other people or somebody else will be put up. It may well be that unless these issues are resolved, whatever we do as a country in trying to reduce t h e l e v e l s o f c o r r u p t i o n s i g n i f i c a n t l y, i t i s n o t g o i n g t o b e 10 effective. It may well be that we need a President who is going to be in a position to stand up in parliament and say when members of parliament coming from the governing party do not ask me difficult questions to hold me accountable, I know they are not doing their job and they should not be here. When you do not ask my ministers difficult q u e s t i o n s , c o m i n g f r o m t h e s a m e p a r t y, I k n o w y o u a r e n o t doing your job but your party requires you to do this job, and it is not a career-limiting thing for you to ask difficult 20 q u e s t i o n s t o m i n i s t e r s c o m i n g f r o m y o u r o w n p a r t y, t o y o u r own President in the interests of the country and in order to make sure that these high levels of corruption are brought down. It may be that the country needs somebody who can stand up and say let us start with me. Page 113 of 203 Start with me. The 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 more questions you ask me, the more I realise you are a good member of the governing p a r t y, y o u a r e a good member of parliament. Well, I am sure som e will say I am just dreaming, such a thing can never happen but it seems that we need something quite drastic, maybe we need somebody who is not going to be looking at even re-election to start changing things, we need somebody who is just going to s a y l e t u s d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g , e v e r y b o d y. L e t u s d o t h e r i g h t 10 t h i n g f o r t h e s a k e o f t h e c o u n t r y. The people come first. The country comes first. Because when there are elections, I am sure every political party will tell the voters the people come first but we need to see this in action, we need to see in action, we do not need speeches of how people say they are committed to fighting corruption. When it comes to this Commission, we also need actions to show that people are supporting the Commission by coming to the Commission to give evidence. Yo u h a v e c o m e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n , y o u h a v e c o m e 20 here many times and you have given evidence. I have no doubt that there are many other senior members of the governing party who know a lot that should come before the Commission who have not come before the Commission. I know there are others who have come before the Page 114 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Commission and we are grateful for what they have done but there are many others, I have no doubt, that have not come before the Commission. And because they do not come give to the information to Commission, the Commission, evidence, they are to give failing to contribute to a solution to some of these problems of state c a p t u r e a n d c o r r u p t i o n i n o u r c o u n t r y. But I thank you for the contribution that you are making. 10 There will be people who will come and they will give evidence and some of them maybe will say that what you have said is not true and whatever and I have made no findings about whether what you say is true or not, I will make findings later on but for the fact that you came here and you said things that you believe need to be said, you have shared with the Commission your experiences. I am grateful that you had the courage to do that and I just wish there were more people who would come and help the C o m m i s s i o n i n t h a t w a y. Thank you very much, Mr Molefe. Thank you. 20 MR SONI SC: Mr Molefe, after that rousing address by the Chairperson, on behalf of the PRASA stream, I just want to say to you I know how you must have agonised over whether you should make the revelations you did. Can I just make this observation? Tr u e p a t r i o t i s m i s s p e a k i n g t r u t h t o p o w e r i n t h e Page 115 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 most difficult circumstances and we hope that your coming here is going to be a clarion call for other patriots who have done so much for our country because unless patriots like you do come, we are not going to find the solution that the Chairperson has been asked to forge so that we can move the country forward. Mr Chairperson, may I say you are not the only dreamer as John Lennon said, we all are. CHAIRPERSON: 10 No, thank you very much, we can r e l e a s e M r M o l e f e n o w. Ye s , w e a r e a t t w o m i n u t e s t o t w o , I think we will take a lunch break that will go up to three. MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. But once again, thank you very much, Mr Molefe, we really appreciate your having come here and assisted the Commission, I really appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. MR MOLEFE: It is my pleasure, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yo u a r e r e l e a s e d . We will take the lunch break and resume at three o’clock. 20 MR SONI SC: As you please, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S ADV SONI SC: We finished with your third affidavit which appears at Bundle E as EXHIBIT SS7C, at page 386. Page 116 of 203 Yo u 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 don’t need to go to it, I am just pointing it out to you for the purposes of the record. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Now during your ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Soni I may have missed some of what you have said, I guess you need to remind us which Bundle we are using, which Exhibit and then what page you want us to look at or did I…[intervenes]. ADV SONI SC: 10 It’s just for the record…[intervenes]. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. ADV SONI SC: So, it’s Bundle E1, EXHIBIT SS7C, page 386, that’s the last document, I’m going to go back to 7B in a moment Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y o u g o a h e a d I ’ l l w a i t f o r w h e n y o u go to a particular page and then – ja. ADV SONI SC: Yo u m i g h t r e c a l l t h a t i n t h a t a f f i d a v i t y o u dealt with what was contained in paragraph 21 in your founding affidavit in the review application in the S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r. 20 MS NG O YE: That’s correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: H’m, maybe what you can do Mr Soni, j u s t f o r, a l s o t h e b e n e f i t o f v i e w e r s a n d l i s t e n e r s a n d s o on, just to re-cap what evidence and what issues she was dealing with when we stopped last time and then announce this is what she will cover today and then you start asking Page 117 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 h e r. ADV SONI SC: Ye s s u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: So there are two basic matters I’m going to raise with you today Ms Ngoye, the first is relating to Siyangena’s response to the allegations at paragraph 21 which dealt with the property dealings between Mr Montana a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t w h o w a s S i y a n g e n a ’ s l a w y e r, y o u recall those four properties that you dealt with? 10 M S N G O Y E : I d o C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: the opposing I know you didn’t have anything to do with affidavit but because it’s an opposing affidavit to your founding affidavit I just want to place it on record through you. The second issue I’m going to raise with you is what you raise in paragraphs 53 to 58 – sorry to 62 of your affidavit of February 2020, that was your second affidavit. M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: 20 And that’s where you deal with the attempts by the Director General to settle certain matters which has become an issue as – well you were not here but Mr Molefe raised that issue as well. So, if I could ask you, then, Ms Ngoye to go to your review application now and those relevant pages are at Bundle B2 EXHIBIT SS3. MS NGOYE: Chairperson, I’ve got here Bundle B SS3 Page 118 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Court applications continued. ADV SONI SC: That’s the one. MS NGOYE: Is this the one? ADV SONI SC: Ye s . M S N G O Y E : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: If you just went to page 401, I just want to alert you to the document that we are talking about – sorry it’s page 400 rather than 401, have you got it? M S N G O Y E : I ’ v e g o t i t C h a i r. 10 ADV SONI SC: Now…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: remember to Just once remember again mention to, once again, or identify what just the document is and in regard to what matter with reference to the case number and the parties. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , s o t h i s i s c a s e n u m b e r 1 4 3 3 2 o f 2 0 1 8 in the G auteng Division of the High Court and it’s a matter between PRASA and Siyangena Te c h n o l o g i e s , do you remember this matter? M S N G O Y E : I d o C h a i r. 20 ADV SONI SC: Now just for orientation sake again, you will recall – sorry what is this application about? MS NGOYE: PRASA to T h i s a p p l i c a t i o n , C h a i r, h a s b e e n b r o u g h t b y set aside the contract that was concluded between PRASA asking the Court to review and set aside the contract that has been concluded by PRASA at the time Page 119 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 t h a t , y o u k n o w, the whole deals were entered into, it involved a number of contracts, sub-contracts relating to the tenders so to speak that PRASA had concluded with the company Siyangena. So, following the investigations that were conducted by the Board it was felt that it was necessary to review the contract and set it aside. ADV SONI SC: N o w, t h e – j u s t a g a i n , f o r o r i e n t a t i o n , t h i s was the second case that PRASA had brought. There was a review application in 2016 and you did deal with it, but 10 just again, for completeness sake, what happened to that application? MS NGOYE: Chairperson the first application, the review application, in fact, was deposed to by Dr Popo Molefe as he then was the Chairperson of the Board and during that period the issue that we needed to deal with or that we were found wanting on as PRASA was the issue of the – I think it’s the 180 days if I’m correct within which to bring your own review as a state owned enterprise and because we were way out of time in relation to bringing this matter 20 to Court, the Court found that there was no basis for us because we were out of time so that’s why we lost that review in relation to that 180 days requirement that was there. ADV SONI SC: And that decision was made without considering the merits of the case? Page 120 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r, w e d i d n ’ t g o i n t o t h e merits of the case. ADV SONI SC: As a result of a decision of the Constitutional Court in the Gijima matter the technical point fell away and you were now entitled to persuade the Court to hear your review application. MS NGOYE: That’s correct C h a i r, the Gijima case, o b v i o u s l y y o u k n o w, d e c i d e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t l e g a l i t y w a s 10 important more required. So, than it’s the on 180 that day basis, timeframe we that believed as was an organisation that we needed to take the matter up again and bring it to Court. That’s why we have the second review which I have then deposed to because at the time, Dr Molefe had already left PRASA. ADV SONI SC: And just again for completion sake this is the matter that’s going to be heard, I think, on the 19th of A u g u s t t h i s y e a r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: 20 N o w, i n y o u r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n k e e p y o u r m i c o n M s N g o y e . M S N G O Y E : O k a y, t h a n k y o u C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: number of In your founding affidavit you raise a concerns, we’ve been through, about the propriety of the process and the lawfulness of the process but in paragraph 29 in particular – paragraph 21 you dealt Page 121 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 with the question of property dealings between Mr Montana a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t , y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? M S N G O Y E : I d o r e c a l l C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: N o w, i n t h e o p p o s i n g a f f i d a v i t a s i t i s called it starts at page 400, Siyangena opposes the whole application, the whole review application, is that correct? M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: MS NGOYE: 10 Now who deposes to this affidavit? T h e d e p o n e n t , C h a i r, i s T h o m a s A n d r e a s Dubek. ADV SONI SC: And in his capacity as the CFO. MS He’s NGOYE: the CFO of the first respondent S i y a n g e n a Te c h n o l o g i e s . ADV SONI SC: Can I then ask you to look at page 516 of that – well of the papers but it’s a continuation of that affidavit. N o w, i n t h i s p a r t o f t h e a f f i d a v i t M r D u b e k d e a l s , g e n e r a l l y, w i t h t h e a l l e g a t i o n t h a t t h e p r o p e r t y d e a l i n g s b e t w e e n M r M o n t a n a a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t , i n s o m e w a y taints the award of the contract to Siyangena. 20 M S N G O Y E : I k n o w t h a t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And I just want to place on record what their position is in regard to the broad allegations you make. Can I ask you to look at paragraph 176 in regard to how the property dealings started, would you read that into the record? Page 122 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: A t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 6 o f t h e a f f i d a v i t , C h a i r, i t reads, “During Siyangena’s involvement in Isams Phase one, Montana and Ferreira had a discussion in regard to Ferreira’s other business interest s which inter alia related to investments in immovable property and construction”. ADV SONI SC: Who is Mr – well we know who Mr Montana is, that’s the form er CEO of PRASA, group CEO of 10 PRASA, is that correct? M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: MS NGOYE: And Mr Ferreira? Mr Ferreira was the attorney involved in the transaction. A D V S O N I S C : N o , M r v a n d e r Wa l t w a s t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MS NGOYE: O h , s o r r y M r v a n d e r Wa l t w a s t h e a t t o r n e y, I can’t remember who Mr Ferreira – just remind me please counsel. ADV SONI SC: 20 Wa s n ’ t M r F e r r e i r a o n t h e B o a r d o r a representative of Siyangena and was he not the person who wrote a letter in June 2014 before the R2.5billion contract was concluded? MS NGOYE: T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r, I r e c a l l , t h e r e ’ s t o o m a n y o f t h e s e p e o p l e C h a i r, y o u w i l l p a r d o n m e . ADV SONI SC: Okay so this is now Mr Ferreira from Page 123 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Siyangena who Mr Dubek says had a meeting with Mr Montana? M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Okay and at paragraph 177 he goes on – Mr Dubek goes on with the interaction between Mr Ferreira and Mr Montana. M S N G O Y E : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: What does he say? MS NGOYE: Okay in response, 10 “Mr Montana noted that, similarly he was also involved in such industries, Montana enquired as to whom Ferreira used to assist him in this regard as he was always on the lookout to improve his team a n d i n p a r t i c u l a r, w a s l o o k i n g f o r a g o o d l a w y e r. F e r r e i r a t h e n r e f e r r e d M r M o n t a n a t o v a n d e r Wa l t whom was, at the time, the attorney that attended to the transfers of the immovable property acquisitions within Ferreira’s other interests and whom, from time to time, recommended and was a partner in 20 some ventures which came across his table in his day-to-day activities”. ADV SONI SC: being Mr N o w, M r v a n d e r Wa l t i s d e s c r i b e d a s Ferreira’s lawyer in transactions. MS NG O YE: That’s correct. Page 124 of 203 respect of property 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: What is your knowledge of Mr van der Wa l t ’ s i n v o l v e m e n t ? MS NGOYE: My knowledge, also, Chairperson was that Mr v a n d e r Wa l t w a s a l s o S i y a n g e n a ’ s a t t o r n e y s . CHAIRPERSON: Well I know that this is not your affidavit that you are reading from but based on your knowledge of the papers involved in this m a t t e r, namely P R A S A’ s application to Court, are you able to put a time when the deponent might be talking – when the time was when he’s 10 talking about Montana and Ferreira having this discussion, which year and so on, is that something you, based on your knowledge of the papers are you able to say because it doesn’t say here when it was. M S N G O Y E : I t d o e s n ’ t s a y C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Yo u a r e n o t a b l e t o s a y ? I ’ m n o t C h a i r, I t h i n k I s u p p o s e o n e w o u l d surmise that it was during the times that Mr Montana started with his property transactions but I’ll have to be reminded of the years. 20 CHAIRPERSON: H’m it may be that when one reads your founding affidavit and reads the paragraph to which this deponent is referring to, one might be able to say it was earlier than a certain event or that kind of – so it might be important to have an idea when this discussion happened, o k a y. Page 125 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: Ye s , h e s a y s t h o u g h , C h a i r p e r s o n , i f y o u look at page – paragraph 176 it was during the IS and AS phase one. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o w h e n w a s t h a t ? MS NGOYE: Phase one would have been – remember we had the two – the confederation cup which was 2009, p h a s e o n e w o u l d h a v e s t a r t e d j u s t , y o u k n o w, 2 0 1 0 / 2 0 11 round about that time Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS NGOYE: O h o k a y. That would have been the time when the phase one of the tender for the Siyangena process started. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV SONI SC: And phase two started around June 2014…[intervenes]. MS NGOYE: That’s correct Chairperson there’s quite a n u m b e r o f p h a s e s , i f y o u r e c a l l C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ja. Phase one, phase one extension and then phase two. 20 CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y, I t h i n k t h a t ’ s h e l p f u l t o o , i f p h a s e o n e w a s a r o u n d 2 0 1 0 / 2 0 11 I t h i n k t h a t t i m i n g m a k e s quite some sense, ja. ADV SONI SC: Ye s , a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 8 M r D u b e k goes on about the nature of the relationship, could you read that into the record. Page 126 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : P a r a g r a p h 1 7 8 r e a d s t h i s C h a i r, “Neither Ferreira, Siyangena or any other entity associated with either of them had any knowledge of subsequent dealings between Montana and van der Wa l t until November 2014 when, during a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h v a n d e r Wa l t , F e r r e i r a b e c a m e aware of these dealings. Ferreira’s request s to van d e r Wa l t w a s t o e n s u r e t h a t a n y a n d a l l d e a l i n g s w i t h M r M o n t a n a b y v a n d e r Wa l t w e r e c o m p l e t e l y 10 above board and completely transparent. Wa l t , heeding Ferreira’s request Va n d e r and after requesting Montana on various occasions to deposit monies into his trust account to continue with their proposed joint venture decided not to include Montana in the dealings and proceeded with the transfer of the subject properties on his own accord without Montana”. ADV SONI SC: Now you obviously have no knowledge of t h e d e a l i n g s b e t w e e n M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M r M o n t a n a o r 20 the dealings between Mr Ferreira through his other h o l d i n g s , f o r e x a m p l e , T M M a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t ? M S N G O Y E : I d o n ’ t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: C h a i r, may I just point out that subsequent to all of these we are going to be leading evidence in the next two days dealing with these matters Page 127 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 and I merely want to place Siyangena’s response in context so that when you look at that evidence you will know what the real facts are as emerge from documentary evidence not from the say so of this witness but I thought I should just place that on record that it is important you are aware of what Siyangena is saying was the relationship and in c o m p a r i n g i t t o w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s w i l l s h o w. Then if you go on to page – sorry if you go on to paragraph 180, what does he say then, Mr Dubek? 10 MS NGOYE: He says, “What is more, what the nature and extent of the d e a l i n g w e r e b e t w e e n v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M o n t a n a i s completely unknown to Siyangena and/or any person, particularly Ferreira related to it”. ADV SONI SC: Alright, then if you look at paragraph 185, what does he say? MS NGOYE: Paragraph 185 says, “The striking absence of primary factual allegations to this effect in the founding affidavit is telling. 20 PRASA is challenged to produce primary admissible facts in relation to the unsubstantiated contentions levelled against in this regard”. ADV SONI SC: That is what, Chairperson, you will be asked to assess after we’ve led that evidence. We don’t need to go into the further aspects at that stage but later Page 128 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 in his affidavit at page 516 of the recorded pages – oh sorry page 604 if you could go to please. M S N G O Y E : I ’ v e g o t i t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: If I could ask you to read paragraph 393.3 into the record please Ms Ngoye? MS NGOYE: Chair paragraph 393.3 reads…[intervenes]. ADV SONI SC: Sorry before you do that, can I just say that paragraph – the heading to paragraph 393 is – are paragraph 21 and sub paragraphs of your affidavit in the – 10 y o u r f o u n d i n g a f f i d a v i t i n t h e m a t t e r. M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: S o r r y. MS NGOYE: Okay paragraph 393.3 reads, “I have indicated herein above that I cannot c o m m e n t o n t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n v a n d e r Wa l t and Montana save to confirm that as far as I know v a n d e r Wa l t i s a d e v e l o p e r o r p r o p e r t y i n v e s t o r i n his own right whilst Montana obviously displayed a desire 20 to become involved in the business of p r o p e r t y d e v e l o p m e n t a n d i n v e s t m e n t . Va n d e r Wa l t and Montana conducted their business amongst them selves and I can only refer to the affidavit d e p o s e d t o b y v a n d e r Wa l t i n t h i s r e g a r d , w h i c h i s an Annexure to these papers”. ADV SONI SC: Then can you look at paragraph on the Page 129 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 following page which is page 605, paragraph 393.7. MS NGOYE: 393.7? ADV SONI SC: Ye s , t h a t ’ s j u s t l o w e r d o w n o n t h a t p a g e . M S N G O Y E : Ye s , I ’ v e g o t i t C h a i r, i t r e a d s , “There is no allegation that Siyangena paid van der Wa l t any benefit to use any of the alleged transaction with Montana”. ADV SONI SC: And at 393.8? MS NGOYE: It reads, 10 “There is no proof or allegation that Montana received any benefit since the factual end result of t h e t r a n s a c t i o n s b e t w e e n v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M o n t a n a i s t h a t v a n d e r Wa l t a s k e d t h a t M o n t a n a , o n t h e i r relationship and is at present the only and sole owner of these properties via his entities”. ADV SONI SC: And then…[intervenes]. MS NGOYE: And in 3.3.8.1 Chair it reads, “Nowhere in Ngoye’s affidavit is one single fact which could imply or indicate that Siyangena is 20 linked to any benefit actually or even potentially received by Montana”. ADV SONI SC: Right will you just finally read paragraph 394. MS NGOYE: Paragraph 394, “As a consequence of the aforesaid, I submit that Page 130 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Ngoye failed to establish any grounds on which a Court can realistically rely to assume any undue benefits from Siyangena to Montana”. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson I just place that on record because I will come back to it at a later stage after we’ve led the evidence and obviously after Siyangena, Mr F e r r e i r a a n d h o p e f u l l y M r v a n d e r Wa l t w i l l r e s p o n d t o w h a t is said in allegations that have already been presented to you. 10 Now Ms Ngoye can I then ask you to turn to your affidavit at Bundle E1, which is EXHIBIT SS7B which starts at page 277 but I want to refer you to page 300. M S N G O Y E : I ’ v e g o t i t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Now again, just to orientate you Ms Ngoye, you might recall on the last occasion you were giving evidence you gave evidence on this affidavit up to paragraph 52 and then we went into your allegations in regard to the property transactions. M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV 20 SONI SC: Ye s , I want to now return to the allegations you make in regard to PRASA in general. M S N G O Y E : O k a y C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Now one of the matters that you dealt with at paragraph 51 in this affidavit – sorry it’s on the previous page, is what you call, in paragraph 53, the interference of Ms Makhubela in the contractual Page 131 of 203 relationship between 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Siyaya and PRASA or the contractual dispute. M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: N o w i n p a r a g r a p h 5 3 y o u s a y, i n t h e previous section I note the interference by the Chairperson o f t h e B o a r d i n M a n a g e m e n t m a t t e r, i s t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e referring to? M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’ s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Now just again to orientate ourselves, your complaint there was – what was the nature of your 10 complaint there? MS NGOYE: Well in this regard, Chairperson, we were dealing an with issue where we believed that the Chairperson of the Board was interfering in management issues and the fact that she wanted to settle or had contemplated settling a particular matter which we, as PRASA and especially the fact that we were dealing with it in the legal department and believed that we had huge prospects of success she wanted it settled and she wanted it settled without the involvement of the legal function and 20 had indicated that fact. ADV SONI SC: Now you already gave evidence on that issue…[intervenes]. M S N G O Y E : I h a v e C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: B u t t h e r e i s , j u s t f o r, a g a i n o r i e n t a t i o n , who was the party involved, the other party involved? Page 132 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: T h i s p a r t i c u l a r t r a n s a c t i o n , C h a i r, w h i c h t h e Chairperson of the Board at the time sought to settle, was Siyaya and you’ll recall, Chairperson, Siyaya is the company where Mr Makhensa Mabunda was involved and it’s one of those which was under the S banner of companies, I think it was called, S companies. ADV SONI SC: And the amount involved – it was an arbitration a series of matters that had been referred to arbitration. 10 MS NGOYE: That’s correct Chair there was about five of them that had been referred to arbitration. ADV SONI SC: And what was the total amount involved? M S N G O Y E : R o u g h l y i t w a s a b o u t 5 8 C h a i r, w i t h i n t e r e s t i t came to about 60 that we had to go fight in Court. ADV SONI SC: Now one of the things that always strikes me as – in one of the matters you dealt with on the previous occasion where Ms Makhubela says, given P R A S A’ s f i n a n c i a l d e a l i n g s e v e r y y e a r, w h a t i s R 6 0 m i l l i o n , was that not her attitude? 20 MS NGOYE: It was her attitude Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: Alright but now you dealing with a slightly although connected partly to Siyaya you dealing with a s l i g h t l y d i ff e r e n t i s s u e p e r f l a t e d . M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Now you refer in this to a meeting if you Page 133 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 look at paragraph 54 held on the 25 April 2019. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And well firstly let me ask you were you present at that meeting? MS NGOYE: I was not invited to this meeting Chairperson. ADV SONI SC: But that means you were not present? MS NGOYE: I was there Chair yes, I was not present. ADV SONI SC: But you have subsequently been given a copy of the Minutes of that Meeting. 10 MS NGOYE: Ye s c o r r e c t I r e c e i v e d a c o p y o f t h e M i n u t e s from the Acting Group CFO of PRASA Ms Thobeka Mohlati at the time. ADV SONI SC: We will get to the circumstances and that that came to your notice. But what was the meeting about in general? MS NGOYE: matters. Chairperson this meeting was about various In fact, the meeting was called by the DG, the D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t M r H l a b i s a – l e t m e g e t h i s s u r n a m e C h a i r. 20 What is his name? Mr C h r i s H l a b i s a w a s t h e D G o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . He had called this meeting Chairperson because apparently various suppliers of PRASA had complained to the Department about PRASA litigating you know unnecessarily and had suggested that their matters be settled and therefore had referred these matters to the Department and Page 134 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 requested the Department’s intervention in the settlement of these matters. ADV SONI SC: Now you cannot vouch for the correctness of the minutes because you were not at the meeting. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: But all we have are the minutes. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Can I – I do not want us to go through the whole minutes but the minutes appear at page 367. 10 M S N G O Y E : I h a v e g o t i t C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And what does the first page read? MS NGOYE: Tr a n s p o r t The first page it is on the letter of the Department Republic of South Africa. DG meeting with stakeholders that have financial disputes with PRASA. venue It is dated 25 April 2019 the time is 12:30 and the was the DG’s boardroom DOT which is the D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s . Can I then ask you to turn to the next page and Item 1. I am not going to go through everything. 20 MS NGOYE: Sure. ADV SONI SC: Sorry who – you know what – how many matters were discussed at this meeting? MS NGOYE: I d o C h a i r. the matters and I d o h a v e r o u g h l y. they are I know two of significant matters that were d i s c u s s e d a t t h i s m e e t i n g w a s t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r. Page 135 of 203 The 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 settlement of Siyangena matter as well as the settlement of t h e S i y a y a m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS NGOYE: And I know there was a Bigale [?] matter also that was referred to as part of the meeting. CHAIRPERSON: Did you – did you not cover this last time? ADV SONI SC: No. CHAIRPERSON: This meeting? ADV SONI SC: No. 10 M S N G O Y E : N o w e d i d n o t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Is that so. M S N G O Y E : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Okay I see markings that I made so I may h a ve m a d e t h e m w h e n I w a s r e a d i n g . B u t I a l s o t h o u g h t t h a t I had heard you speak about a meeting where the DG was or a ct i n g D G I a m n o t su r e w a s t r yi n g t o p u s h f o r t h e s e t t l e m e n t o f ce rt a i n m a t t e r s. MS NGOYE: It was not this one. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d i d n o t c o ve r t h i s ? 20 M S N G O Y E : N o i t w a s n o t t h i s o n e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Both of you cannot be wrong. O ka y a l ri g h t . ADV SONI SC: Yo u n e v e r c a n t e l l C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 136 of 203 But I – my 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 note on my file. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Te l l s m e t h a t w e h a d n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S O N I S C : C o v e r e d t h i s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: I j u st w a n t t o s a y t h a t p a ra g r a p h 1 . 1 t e l l s y o u w h a t t h e m e e t i n g i s a b o u t . C o u l d y o u j u st r e a d t h a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a se M s N g o y e ? 10 M S N G O Y E : P a ra g r a p h 1 . 1 r e a d s: “ T h e a ct i n g D i r e ct o r G e n e ra l M r C h ri s H l a b i s a h e n c e f o rt h Chairperson welcomed all members to a meeting to discuss f i n a n c i a l d i s p u t e s w i t h P R A S A’s s e r vi c e p ro v i d e r s t h a t w e r e i n vi t e d t o p re s e n t t h e i r c a s e s. CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u n o t e a rl i e r o n g i ve a d i ff e r e n t n a m e f o r t h e a ct i n g D G ? M S N G O Y E : N o I s a i d M r H l a b i sa . CHAIRPERSON: No the name of… M S N G O Y E : C h ri s H l a b i s a . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said a name other than C h ri s. I s e e h e r e t h e y s a y C h ri s H l a b i s a . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s h i m – t h a t i s w h o I s a i d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d C h ri s. M S N G O Y E : M r C h ri s H l a b i s a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. Page 137 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e m t o h a v e h e a r d so m e t h i n g e l s e . We l l I h a p p e n e d t o r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e a ct i n g D G o r D G w a s Hlabisa but… MS NGOYE: Hlabisa it is Mr Chris Hlabisa. C H A I R P E R S O N : I h e a r d so m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t . Ja . ADV SONI SC: I kn o w w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a i r p e r so n . The w i t n e s s d i d n o t r e m e m b e r t h e f i r st n a m e . M S N G O Y E : T h e f i r st n a m e a n d I w e n t b a c k t o ch e c k. 10 A D V S O N I S C : T h e n s h e w e n t b a c k t o ch e c k. CHAIRPERSON: Oh – oh. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – j a . I t h i n k – I t h i n k t h a t i s – j a o ka y. ADV SONI SC: N o w I j u st w a n t y o u t o l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h A a n d p e rh a p s re a d p a r a g ra p h A i n t o t h e r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON: Is that under … MS NGOYE: Is that of 1.2? C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r p a r a g ra p h 1 . 2 ? A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y 1 . 2 A y e s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: 1.2A. M S N G O Y E : 1 . 2 A C h a i r t h e – i t s a y s: “ T h e C h a i r p e r s o n h i g h l i g h t e d t h e f o l l o w i n g sa l i e n t m a t t e r s. a . T h e m e e t i n g w a s a s a r e s u l t o f s e ri o u s a l l e g a t i o n s b y s o m e c o m p a n i e s a n d o r s e r vi c e p r o vi d e r s w h o cl a i m e d t h a t t h e y a r e o w e d m o n i e s f o r s e r v i ce s r e n d e r e d t o Page 138 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 g o ve r n m e n t e s p e c i a l l y i t s e n t i t i e s s u c h a s P R A S A . ” Ye s. ADV SONI SC: And b. M S N G O Y E : B R e a d s: “O t h e r s e r vi c e p r o vi d e r s w e n t a s f a r a s r e p o rt i n g P R A S A t o P a rl i a m e n t t o t h e Mi n i st e r a n d t o t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f t h e D e p a rt m e n t . ” ADV SONI SC: And C. MS NGOYE: C. 10 “P a r l i a m e n t n o t e d t h e a c c u s a t i o n s a n d r e f e r re d t h e m a t t e r b a c k t o M i n i st e r a n d t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r. ” ADV SONI SC: S o t h e s e w e r e s e r vi c e p r o vi d e r s w h o w e re g o i n g t o c o m p l a i n t o i f I m a y p u t i t h i g h e r a u t h o ri t i e s. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : A g a i n st P R A S A . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct . ADV SONI SC: B u t l e t m e a s k y o u t h i s. A t t h a t st a g e i n re g a r d t o S i y a y a a n d S i y a n g e n a w h a t w a s t h e p o si t i o n i n re g a r d t o t h e co u r t p r o c e s s e s ? 20 MS NGOYE: Chairperson we had not finalised the litigation p r o c e s s e s w i t h b o t h c o m p a n i e s i n f a ct a n d i n f a ct S i y a y a w a s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f h a vi n g i t s c o m p a n i e s l i q u i d a t e d a n d Siyangena were – I mean it has been common knowledge a n d p u b l i c k n o w l e d g e t h a t w e h a v e b e e n i n c o u rt w i t h Siyangena you know for quite some time. Page 139 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: By the time this meeting took place had your – h a d t h e i s s u e t h a t Ju d g e M a k h u b e l a r a i s e d l a t e r h a d t h a t b e e n s o rt e d o u t ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a i r w h a t b e c o m e s i n t e r e st i n g i s t h a t t h i s m e e t i n g h a p p e n s a f t e r – y o u kn o w w e h a ve b e e n t o c o u rt t o g o a n d yo u k n o w re t ri e ve t h e m o n i e s t h a t y o u w e r e u n d u l y sought to be taken… C H A I R P E R S O N : A p ri l 2 5 , 2 0 1 9 ? MS NGOYE: 10 T h a t i s ri g h t C h a i r. A t t h i s t i m e t h e co u rt p r o c e s s o f g e t t i n g t h e m o n e y b a c k i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e S i ya y a m a t t e r s h a d b e e n f i n a l i se d . m o n i e s b a c k f ro m t h e s h e ri ff . I n f a ct , w e h a d r e c e i v e d t h e S o t h i s m a t t e r co m e s a f t e r t h a t a n d i t b e c o m e s i n t e r e st i n g t h a t y o u k n o w i t i s st i l l b r o u g h t b a c k t o t h e D e p a rt m e n t f o r d i s c u s si o n . W h e n i n f a ct w h e n w e t o o k i t t o co u rt , w e h a d t o g e t t h e p e rm i s s i o n o f t h e M i n i st e r C h a i r p e r s o n . I f y o u r e c a l l p a rt o f t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t I gave was that… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I r e m e m b e r t h a t e v i d e n c e . MS NGOYE: Ja. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a n d t h e t h e n C h a i r p e r s o n w e r e a s ke d b y t h e M i n i st e r t o m a k e r e p o rt s a n d s o o n . M S N G O Y E : To g o a n d m a ke s u b m i s si o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. B u t I a m – w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r st a n d Page 140 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 n o w i s w h e t h e r i n s o f a r a s S i ya n g e n a w a s co n c e r n e d a t t h i s meeting what it was talking about was the money that they alleged they were being owed being the same money about w h i c h y o u h a d g o n e t o c o u rt a n d – a n d y o u w e r e w a i t i n g f o r t h e m t o t a ke t h e n e xt st e p a s I u n d e r st a n d y o u r p r e vi o u s e vi d e n c e . I t w a s a f t e r y o u – y o u w e n t r e s ci s si o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s S i y a y a C h a i r p e r so n . CHAIRPERSON: That is Siyaya. MS NGOYE: So we have got Siyaya. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: W h i c h i s t h e o n e t h a t w e w e n t t o r e s ci s si o n t o c o u rt f o r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : S i y a n g e n a i s t h e o n e t h a t i s st i l l i n c o u rt . CHAIRPERSON: Oh is this about Siyangena? MS NGOYE: This is both of them. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o I a m n o w c o n ce n t r a t i n g o f S i y a y a . MS NGOYE: Siyaya is the one … CHAIRPERSON: 20 B e c a u s e S i ya y a i s t h e o n e w h e r e t h e former Chairperson got involved. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: S o I a m – so m y q u e st i o n i s w h e t h e r insofar as Siyaya was in this meeting or was representing this meeting was that what they were about? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . So they wanted that money Page 141 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 t h a t w e w e n t t o g o g e t b a c k. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M S N G O Y E : J a t h r o u g h t h e p ro p e r p r o c e s s e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e b a l l w a s i n t h e i r c o u rt w a s i t n o t ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e yo u h a d o b t a i n e d a r e s ci s s i o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y n e e d e d t o t a ke t h e m a t t e r f u rt h e r if they wanted to. 10 MS NGOYE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV SONI SC: S o rr y M s N g o y e c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n b a c k to page 368 and I know I only asked you to read three of the p a r a g ra p h s b u t c a n I a l so a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h e a n d w h a t d o e s t h a t p a ra g r a p h s a y ? P a r a g r a p h E . MS NGOYE: S o p a r a g ra p h E o f t h e m i n u t e s s a y s: “ T h e s e a c c u s a t i o n s w e r e t o b e a d d r e s s e d a n d co n cl u d e d before the Adminis – before the n e w A d m i n i st r a t i o n is appointed.” 20 ADV SONI SC: S o w h a t i s t h a t i n re f e r e n c e t o t h e n e w a d m i n i st r a t i o n ? MS NGOYE: We l l C h a i r I m e a n I – o n e c a n o n l y s u r m i s e . I m e a n – a s I h a v e i n d i ca t e d I w a s n o t a t t h e m e e t i n g b u t t h i s w a s j u st b e f o re . T h e r e w a s a c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o re t h e e l e ct i o n s. Page 142 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s i t . B e f o r e t h e n e w M i n i st e r s w e r e g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d f o r t h e d i ff e re n t p o rt f o l i o s a n d s o o n . A n d s o t h i s m e e t i n g w a s j u st b e f o re t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o … . MS NGOYE: I t i s i n t e r e st i n g t h a t t h e m i n u t e s re c o r d t h a t i t w a s i m p o rt a n t t h a t t h e s e d e ci s i o n s w e r e t o b e m a d e b e f o re t h e n e w a d m i n i st r a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : Yo u k n o w ca m e i n t o e ff e ct . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. T h e n e w a d m i n i st ra t i o n i s a re f e r e n c e t o t h e a d m i n i st r a t i o n t h a t w o u l d f o l l o w a f t e r t h e g e n e r a l e l e ct i o n s. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV SONI SC: Now if you then look at page 369 and this deals with the presentation to be made on behalf of Siyaya. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: C a n I j u st a s k y o u i f y o u l o o k a b o v e i n t h e b l o c k a b o v e t h a t w h o re p r e se n t e d S i y a y a a t t h e s e – a t t h i s 20 meeting? MS NGOYE: C h a i rp e r s o n S i y a y a w a s r e p re s e n t e d b y M r M a k h e n s a M a b u n d a t o g e t h e r w i t h M r P ri n c e P a w e n i . ADV SONI SC: d i s c u s si o n s. Right. Then we do not need to look at the I w o u l d j u st l i k e y o u t o t u rn t o p a g e 3 7 1 a n d l o o k a t t h e d e ci si o n t h a t w a s t a ke n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e S i y a y a Page 143 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 m a t t e r. I t i s a t p a g e 3 7 1 p a r a g r a p h s 3 . 1 . 9 . M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a i r I h a v e g o t i t . I t re a d s a t a i t r e a d s ? “The DOT will intervene to address the litigation issues and see if g o ve r n m e n t was not u n n e c e s sa ri l y l o si n g money t h r o u g h t h i s p r o ce s s. S i y a y a D B I t o a s si st t h e p a n e l – t h i s i s b . b y a v a i l i n g i t s e l f w h e n r e q u e st e d t o cl a ri f y a d d i t i o n a l f a ct s i n t h e i r s u b m i s si o n s h o u l d a n y o f t h e s u b m i t t e d i n f o rm a t i o n b e u n cl e a r. ” ADV SONI SC: 10 C a n I j u st a s k y o u t o l o o k a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e a n d i n re g a r d t o a m o u n t t h a t S i y a y a s a i d w a s o w i n g t o it what figure is – is set out? MS NGOYE: C h a i r p e r s o n i n p a ra g r a p h c o f t h e m i n u t e w h a t I a m r e a d i n g h e r e i t s a y s: “The total litigation amount R 111 6 4 1 2 1 9 . 1 8 . This e x p e n d i t u re R82 978 039.84 of amount by is Siyaya made up plus DB of was capital i n t e r e st of R28 663 179.34.” ADV SONI SC: Now two years ago what was the amount t h a t w a s t h e se t t l e m e n t a m o u n t ? 20 MS NGOYE: I t w a s i n t e r e st i n g C h a i rp e r s o n b e c a u s e w e a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e f i g u r e o f a b o u t 6 0 m i l l i o n – 5 8 / 6 0 m i l l i o n s o i t h a s g o n e u p n o w. In this meeting we talking 87 million E u r o s s o i t i s i n t e re st i n g . B u t n o w i t i s p l u s i n t e r e st . I m e a n 8 2 m i l l i o n p l u s i n t e r e st i t i s a b o u t 111 m i l l i o n . I t i s a l m o st double the amount that was initially the amount in dispute. Page 144 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: Tr a n s p o rt was A n y w a y, t h e D O – t h e D e p a rt m e n t o f then to engage with PRASA and the c o n t r a ct o r s ? MS NGOYE: this? T h a t i s c o r r e ct . B u t C h a i r p e r so n m a y I s a y I h a ve – y o u k n o w I f i n d i t v e r y i n t e r e st i n g t h a t t h i s m a t t e r w a s d e a l t w i t h i n t h i s m a n n e r. This matter was not c o m i n g t o t h e D e p a rt m e n t f o r t h e f i r st t i m e . m a t t e r. The Siyaya A s I i n d i c a t e d C h a i r p e r s o n w h e n t h e Mi n i st e r a t t h e t i m e t o o k o ff i c e , M i n i st e r B l a d e N zi m a n d e w e b r o u g h t t h i s 10 m a t t e r t o h i m b e c a u se w e w e r e – w e d i d n o t kn o w w h e r e t o g o a s I i n d i c a t e d p r e vi o u sl y i n m y e vi d e n c e . And we raised t h i s m a t t e r w i t h h i m t o s a y, Mi n i st e r w e n e e d y o u r h e l p , c a n y o u p l e a s e a s si st u s i n re c o v e ri n g t h i s m o n e y f o r P R A S A ? I t b e co m e s i n t e r e st i n g t h a t t h e v e r y s a m e D e p a rt m e n t t h a t y o u know had knowledge of this meeting – of this meeting and of t h e r e p o rt s t h a t w e h a d g i v e n i s d e a l i n g w i t h i t a g a i n a s though it is a new matter and they did not know about it. ADV SONI SC: And then ask you in the block under that t h e r e i s a p r e s e n t a t i o n b y B a g e l e C o n st r u ct i o n . 20 MS NGOYE: It is Mogale. ADV SONI SC: Mogale. M S N G O Y E : M o g a l e C o n st r u ct i o n . Ye s C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. D i d y o u k n o w a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h a t – I d o n o t w a n t yo u t o g o i n t o a n y d e t a i l s ? MS NGOYE: Ja. I kn e w about Page 145 of 203 the Mogale m a t t e r. 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Chairperson this was one of the matters that we were d e a l i n g w i t h a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n w i t h i n P R A S A . o n ce a g a i n i n d i s p u t e w i t h M o g a l e . We w e r e I t st a rt e d a w h i l e a g o i t w a s a 2 0 1 0 m a t t e r t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e c o n s u l t a n c y a g re e m e n t that we had. to indicate A n d i t i s i n t e re st i n g a l s o i f I m a y C h a i rp e r s o n that in f a ct not so long ago PRASA was s u c c e s sf u l i n t h i s m a t t e r w h e r e M o g a l e w a s cl a i m i n g a b o u t R 3 6 m i l l i o n f r o m P R A S A t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s f i n a l l y d e ci d e d t h r o u g h a n a r b i t r a t i o n a n d w e w e r e s u c ce s sf u l a n d d e f e a t e d 10 M o g a l e i n t h e m a t t e r. ADV SONI SC: A n d ye t t h e i n d i c a t i o n w a s i f – i f w h a t w a s b e i n g co n t e m p l a t e d t h e m a t t e r w a s – w o u l d h a v e b e e n s e t t l e d w i t h P R A S A p a yi n g s o m e t h i n g o r t h e o t h e r a t l e a st . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Before Siyaya approached the acting DG a s a r e s u l t o f w h i c h t h e a ct i n g D G c a l l e d t h i s m e e t i n g h a d t h e r e b e e n a n y t i m e a f t e r t h e c o u rt p r o c e e d i n g s i n w h i c h P R A S A w a s i n v o l v e d t o st o p t o g e t t h e m o n e y f r o m t h e s h e ri ff w a s t h e re a t i m e w h e n S i y a y a c a m e b a c k t o P R A S A 20 a n d s a y, l e t u s t a l k a b o u t t h i s m a t t e r ? O r t h e y j u st w e n t st ra i g h t t o t h e a c t i n g D G o f Tr a n s p o rt w i t h o u t a p p r o a ch i n g P R A S A a g a i n a f t e r t h a t p e ri o d o f l i t i g a t i o n ? M S N G O Y E : To m y k n o w l e d g e C h a i rp e r s o n – I m e a n u n l e s s t h e y a p p ro a c h e d t h e G r o u p C E O I w o u l d n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 146 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : B u t t o m y – i n f a ct i f t h a t w a s t h e ca s e I w o u l d h a ve e x p e ct e d t o h a ve b e e n a s k e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: A s t h e G ro u p E x e cu t i v e r e s p o n si b l e f o r l e g a l b u t t o m y k n o w l e d g e t h e r e w a s n o s u c h i n t e r a ct i o n s b e t w e e n a n d S i y a ya a t t h e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SONI SC: M r C h a i r p e r so n I a m c o n st r a i n e d i n l i g h t o f what Mr Molefe said to refer you back to paragraph 1.2 on 10 p a g e 3 6 8 b e c a u s e w h a t t h e D G s a y s t h e r e i s: “The meeting was as a r e su l t of allegation by some c o m p a n i e s w h o c l a i m e d t h e y w e r e o w e d m o n i e s e s p e ci a l l y b y – w h i c h t h e y h a d – w h e r e t h e y h a d r e n d e re d s e r vi c e s t o g o ve r n m e n t . ” And then the point is that they had approached Parliament, t h e y h a d a p p r o a c h e d t h e M i n i st e r a n d so o n a n d so o n . S o I a m m e re l y m a ki n g t h e p o i n t t h a t i t w a s n o t si m p l y g o i n g t o somebody it was that whole gambit of people that Mr Molefe w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t . A n d I j u st s u b m i t t h a t o n e n e e d s t o k e e p 20 t h o se n u a n ce s i n m i n d M r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, n o t h a n k yo u . ADV SONI SC: A l ri g h t t h e n M s N g o ye i f y o u c o u l d l o o k a t p a r a g ra p h – p a g e 3 7 5 . T h i s i s t h e t h i r d p r e s e n t a t i o n a n d t h e presentation is now made by Siyangena. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 147 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 ADV SONI SC: I f I co u l d a s k y o u t o g o b a c k t o p a g e 3 6 9 a n d j u st i n d i c a t e w h o m a d e t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n o n b e h a l f o f M r Siyangena of … MS NGOYE: Siyangena. ADV SONI SC: S i y a n g e n a ye s. Yo u w i l l se e i t i n t h e t o p b l o c k. MS NGOYE: Siyangena – yes under 2.3 of the minute C h a i r p e r s o n i t s a y s: “ M r P S R e d d y M D S i y a n g e n a Te c h n o l o g i e s a n d M r To m 10 D u b e c k C F O S i y a n g e n a Te c h n o l o g i e s. ” A n d o b vi o u sl y C h a i r p e r so n I h a v e j u st r e a d t h e o p p o si n g a ff i d a vi t t h a t w a s d e p o s e d t o b y M r D u b e c k h i m s e l f . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. S o a p r e se n t a t i o n i s m a d e a n d t h e n i f y o u l o o k a t t h e n e xt p a g e 3 7 6 t h e d e ci si o n i s s u m m a ri s e d . C o u l d yo u i n d i c a t e w h a t i s s a i d a t p a r a g r a p h a ? M S N G O Y E : a . A t 3 . 5 p a ra g r a p h a s a y s: ‘ Th e D G e m p h a s i s e d t h a t h e w o u l d n o t w a n t g o ve rn m e n t m o n e y t o b e w a s t e d o n l i t i g a t i o n m a t t e r s w h i ch w o u l d o n l y 20 benefit lawyers and not government. T h e C F O m u st t a k e a w a y t h e i s s u e o f t h e l e g a l d e b a cl e r e t h e S e p t e m b e r c o u rt date.” ADV SONI SC: And when there is a reference to the S e p t e m b e r c o u rt d a t e t o y o u r kn o w l e d g e w h a t d o e s o n e – what was that a reference to? Page 148 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: T h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o h a v e g o n e t o c o u rt . Chairperson the – the Siyangena matter there has been quite a n u m b e r o f p o st p o n e m e n t s y o u k n o w i n t h e m a t t e r. I mean w e h a v e n o w e v e n p o st p o n e d f r o m J a n u a r y t h i s y e a r t o n o w A u g u st t h i s ye a r so i t o b vi o u sl y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a d a t e where we were su p p o s e d to have gone to c o u rt with Siyangena. ADV SONI SC: So – so it was supposed to have gone to c o u rt i n S e p t e m b e r l a st y e a r? 10 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . ADV SONI SC: A n d w h a t se e m s t o b e t h e p l a n i s t o t a k e i t a w a y f r o m t h e h a n d s o f t h e co u rt . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : A n d l e a v e i t i n t h e h a n d s o f t h e D e p a rt m e n t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e sa m e M r D u b e c k w h o s a y s , yo u d o n o t h a v e a ca s e . MS NGOYE: Ja. 20 A D V S O N I S C : I s t h e p e r so n w h o g o e s w i t h t h i s r e q u e st . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. ADV SONI SC: A n d t h e n M s N g o y e i f y o u co u l d j u st r e a d p a r a g ra p h 3 b e c a u s e i t n o w c o m e s b a c k t o y o u t h e D G a s k s t h e P R A S A C F O t o d o c e rt a i n t h i n g s. Page 149 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : W h i c h – s o r r y w h i c h p a r a g r a p h C o u n se l ? ADV SONI SC: Paragraph 335B. M S N G O Y E : B . B r e a d s C h a i r. “The DG r e q u e st e d the PRASA CFO to check the s u b m i s si o n s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e e m a i l e d a n d d e s c ri b e a n d verify the amounts that are owed to them.” S e c o n d b u l l e t p o i n t sa y s: “ T h e C F O s h o u l d s e t t l e t h e cl a i m s a s so o n a s P R A S A h a d verified that they had a legitimate claim.” 10 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. S o – s o t h e a ct i n g D G i s e ff e ct i v e l y s a yi n g t h e C F O o f P R A S A – i s t h a t t h e C F O o f P R A S A t h a t y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: S h o u l d s e t t l e a cl a i m a b o u t w h i c h P R A S A has gone to court because PRASA believes Siyaya is not entitled to payment? MS NGOYE: Siyangena Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Siyangena. 20 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh this is Siyangena. MS NGOYE: This is Siyangena Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I h a v e t h i s … MS NGOYE: That is it. CHAIRPERSON: M i xi n g t h e m u p . Oh are we on Siyangena Page 150 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 n o w n o t S i ya y a ? M S N G O Y E : We a r e o n S i y a n g e n a n o w C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O ka y. I a m re - o ri e n t a t i n g m y s e l f f ro m S i y a n g e n a t o – so f r o m S i y a ya t o S i y a n g e n a . MS NGOYE: Ja S i y a n g e n a r e m e m b e r y o u s a i d S i ya n b e n g a t h e l a st t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w. M S N G O Y E : C h a i rp e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . B u t [ A f ri c a n l a n g u a g e ] . O k a y. A l ri g h t . 10 Ye s c o n t i n u e M s – Mr S o n i . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. S o e ff e ct i v e l y i t w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e l e t P R A S A’s l a w y e r s t e l l u s i t w a s l e t t h e C F O w h o i s a f i n a n ci a l person because you do not want lawyers to make money but it does not matter if PRASA is to be paid – I mean if Siyangena is to be paid R5 billion. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. T h a t i s t h e n e t t e ff e ct . A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h a t i s e ff e ct i v e l y t h e a t t i t u d e . MS NGOYE: T h a t i s t h e n e t t e ff e c t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g here. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O h s o – so w h e n h e w a s t a l ki n g – w h e n t h e a ct i n g D G w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e C F O v e ri f yi n g t h e a m o u n t a n d p a yi n g h e w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t b i l l i o n s ? M S N G O Y E : B i l l i o n s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And that is the matters which he was s a yi n g s h o u l d n o t g o t o c o u rt , s h o u l d n o t b e d e a l t w i t h b y t h e Page 151 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 c o u rt s. M S N G O Y E : Ye s – Ye s C h a i r. ADV SONI SC: And then in the last bullet point under C he a s k s t h e C E O a n d co u l d yo u j u st r e a d t h a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d M s Ngoye. M S N G O Y E : U n d e r C C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s t h e l a st b u l l e t p o i n t . M S N G O Y E : T h e l a st b u l l e t p o i n t . “ T h e D G r e q u e st e d t h e C F O t o h a v e b o t h S i y a n g e n a a n d 10 P R A S A l a w ye r s i n o n e t e a m h o w e v e r t h e D O T w i l l i n i t i a t e t h e m e e t i n g . P R A S A C F O w o u l d i n st r u ct i t s l a w y e r s t o w o r k w i t h S i y a n g e n a ’s l a w y e r s. ” I do not know whether it is Chair I mean. CHAIRPERSON: Did you u n d e r st a n d t h a t t o mean Ms Ngoye? MS NGOYE: It is – look Chair I mean it does not make s e n se t o m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS NGOYE: 20 Yo u k n o w f i r st a n d f o r e m o st I a m t h e G r o u p Executive Legal Risk and Compliance in the matter I do not g e t i n vi t e d t o t h i s m e e t i n g a n d t h e n t h e y g i vi n g i n st ru ct i o n s to the CFO who is not even – who is not you know dealing w i t h t h e s e m a t t e r s o n a d a i l y b a s i s a n d t h e y a r e i n st ru ct i n g the CFO to then get the lawyers of PRASA and the lawyers o f S i y a n g e n a t o g e t h e r. T h e w h o l e t o m e j u st d o e s n o t m a ke Page 152 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s e n se . I d o n o t – I d o n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: So – so if one goes back to you the e vi d e n c e y o u g a v e l a st t i m e y o u h a v e a si t u a t i o n w h e re a f t e r the C h a i rp e r s o n got involved – well I know that the C h a i r p e r s o n f r o m w h a t y o u s a i d w a s r e a l l y i n t e r e st e d i n t h e S i y a y a m a t t e r. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: But you said in regard to her and in regard t o t h e S i y a y a m a t t e r s a f t e r s h e g o t i n v o l ve d a s C h a i rp e r s o n o f t h e B o a rd y o u r d e p a rt m e n t , y o u a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o g o t si d e -l i n e d . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d yo u s a i d t h a t M s M o g a sh o a w h o w a s P R A S A’s a t t o r n e y. MS NGOYE: D i a l e M o g a s h o a A t t o r n e y s. T h a t i s co r re ct C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 To l d I think Mr Dingiswayo Chairperson had said he should not deal with… M S N G O Y E : Ye s. H e i s b a r re d . CHAIRPERSON: With you in – ja. MS NGOYE: From dealing with the people. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d t o t h e S i y a y a cl a i m s. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 153 of 203 that the 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: So here now you are t a l ki n g about Siyangena. M S N G O Y E : I t i s t h e s a m e n a m e s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e r e t o y o u a re s a yi n g t h a t t h e a ct i n g D G o f t h e D e p a rt m e n t o f Tr a n s p o rt w h i c h i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r PRASA calls a meeting at which claims allegedly owed by P R A S A t o v a ri o u s p a rt i e s w i l l b e d i s c u s s e d b u t t h e i r l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t i s e x c l u d e d . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d ye t t h e y w i l l b e t a l ki n g a b o u t w h e t h e r t h o se m a t t e r s s h o u l d b e s e t t l e d o r n o t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. MS NGOYE: I mean I think Chair if I may the whole thing – l o o k I s u p p o s e y o u k n o w so m e t h i n g s a r e d e si g n e d t h a t i s m y vi e w, t h e y a r e d e si g n e d a n d – a n d t h e o n e t h i n g t h a t a l w a y s c o m e s t o m i n d i f t h a t I w o u l d h a ve o b vi o u sl y ra i se d a l o t o f o b j e ct i o n s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MS NGOYE: At that meeting. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : To h a vi n g t h e s e d i s cu s si o n s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : Yo u k n o w a n d I g u e s s t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 154 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : Fi r st a n d f o re m o st , S i y a y a w a s i n l i q u i d a t i o n . ADV SONI SC: Hm. M S N G O Y E : O n e w o u l d s a y w h e re i s t h e l i q u i d a t o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS NGOYE: B e c a u se M r M a k h e n s a M a b u n d a y o u h a v e g o t n o a u t h o ri t y t o b e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ye s. MS NGOYE: And those are things that the CFO nor the G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A w o u l d n o t h a ve k n o w n t o r a i s e yo u 10 know but once again you know it is that thing that says that t h a t l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t i s p r o b l e m a t i c. I n f a ct , t h e y s h o u l d j u st b e k e p t o u t o f t h e s e t h i n g s. CHAIRPERSON: We l l i t i s a l s o l i k e e v e n w i t h r e g a r d t o Siyaya that when the settlements – settlement was entered i n t o i t w a s n o t j u s t t h e l i q u i d a t o r s. MS NGOYE: No. CHAIRPERSON: W h o w e r e re p r e s e n t e d i t w a s p e o p l e w h o a ct u a l l y h a d n o l o c u s st a n d i . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: B e ca u s e t h e l i q u i d a t o r s t a k e c o n t ro l o f a company once it is in liquidation. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e c l a i m s w e re b e i n g se t t l e d … MS NGOYE: By the lawyers elsewhere. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h p e o p l e – w i t h l a w y e r s a ct i n g f o r t h o se Page 155 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 people. MS NGOYE: Ja. T h a t i s co r re ct . I t g o e s t o t h e c o n d u ct o f t h o se l a w y e r s a s w e l l i n m y o p i n i o n C h a i r p e r so n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. M S N G O Y E : B e c a u se h o n e st l y, I m e a n i f y o u h a v e t o l o o k a t i t y o u r e a l l y c a n n o t b e c o n d u ct i n g y o u r s e l f i n t h a t m a n n e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: A l s o , i n t h e l e g a l p r o f e s si o n h e s p e a k s a b o u t this meeting which they had with the DG and... and about 10 t h e se u h - u h - u h , s e r v i ce p r o vi d e r s t h a t w e r e o w e d b y P R A S A . A n d o b vi o u sl y, m y e a r s, y o u k n o w, u h , w e r e v e r y k e e n t o s h a r e w h a t . . . w h a t i s t h i s a b o u t n o w. Um, and that is when I got to kn o w about the m e e t i n g s a n d I g o t t o s h a r e w h o t h e s e r v i ce p r o vi d e r s w e r e a n d . . . a n d I t o o k i s s u e a t e x c o , y o u k n o w, w i t h o b vi o u sl y w h a t h e w a s. . . w h a t . . . w h a t . . . w h a t h e w a s r e p o rt i n g t o e x co . ADV SONI SC: N o w, at that meeting, if you look at p a r a g ra p h 5 7 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t , o n p a g e 3 0 1 , yo u m a k e t h e point that: 20 “A t t h e m e e t i n g h e a l l u d e t o t h e p o s si b l e se t t l e m e n t o f t h e s e m a t t e r s”. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V S O N I S C : I t i s t h e t h i r d l a st l i n e o f u h , o n t h a t p a g e o f p a r a g ra p h 5 7 . H a v e y o u g o t t h a t ? MS NGOYE: T h a t i s ri g h t h e re . “ H e a l l u d e d t o t h e p o s si b l e Page 156 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 s e t t l e m e n t o f t h e s e m a t t e r s ”. Ye s. I m a d e i t v e r y cl e a r t o D r S i s h i t h a t t h e s u p p l i e r s t h a t h e w a s r e f e r ri n g t o w e r e a l l i n litigation with PRASA and thus PRASA... a s. . . a s. . . as P R A S A w e w e r e f i g h t i n g t h e s e c a s e s a c c o r d i n g l y. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. T h e n i f yo u l o o k a t t h e n e xt p a g e . MS NGOYE: H’m? ADV SONI SC: O h , s o rr y. Perhaps you should read that in b e ca u s e i t g i v e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: Ja. 10 ADV SONI SC: . . . b e c a u s e i t g i v e s c o n t e xt t o h o w h e re a ct e d . MS NGOYE: “I a l s o i n d i c a t e d t h a t a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n a n d h a vi n g c o n s u l t e d e xt e n si v e l y w i t h b u si n e s s o n t h e v a ri o u s m a t t e r s, w e b e l i e v e d t h a t P R A S A’s p ro s p e ct s o f s u c c e s s w e re g o o d u m , a s t h e e vi d e n c e i n t h e C I R e s ci s si o n m a t t e r which had saved PRASA some R 16 million which he had u h . . . w h i c h h a d b e e n a t t a c h e d b y S i y a y a ”. ADV SONI SC: minute? 20 O k a y. S o i f y o u c o u l d st o p t h e re f o r a C l e a rl y y o u r a t t i t u d e a s e x p r e s s e d h e r e a n d a t t h e m e e t i n g w a s, w e c a n n o t s e t t l e t h e s e m a t t e r s. MS NGOYE: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : U h , w e h a v e g o t g o o d ca s e s. MS NGOYE: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : We h a v e a r i g h t t o d o t h i s. MS NGOYE: H’m. Page 157 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A D V S O N I S C : W h a t w a s h i s a t t i t u d e ? Yo u t h e n d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e r e st o f t h a t p a r a g ra p h . MS NGOYE: Ja. W h e n I s a i d t h a t C h a i rp e r s o n , D r S i sh i st a t e u m , t h a t t h e r e w e re c o m p l a i n t s e v e n a m o n g st u m . . . I w i l l r e a d i t h e r e , s i r. . . u h , C h a i r. I t s a y s t h a t : “There were co m p l a i n t s in a m o n g st P R A S A st a ff m e m b e r s a b o u t h o w t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n t o g e t h e r w i t h a p a rt i c u l a r l a w f i r m , w h o s e n a m e h e d i d n o t m e n t i o n , w a s t r e a t i n g e m p l o y e e s ”. 10 S h a l l I re a d f u rt h e r? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. MS NGOYE: “I w a s s u r p ri s e d a n d a s k e d h i m t o p r o vi d e details after the meeting. H e s u g g e st e d t h a t a s e p a r a t e meeting would be held on the 9th of May 2019 to discuss t h e se m a t t e r s. H o w e v e r, t o d a t e t h i s m e e t i n g h a s n o t h a p p e n e d b u t o n t h e 2 2 n d o f M a y 2 0 1 9 , h e p l a c e d m e o n sp e ci a l l e a v e ”. A n d I h a v e d e a l t w i t h b e i n g p l a c e d o n s p e ci a l l e a ve i n a n o t h e r p o rt i o n o f t h e a ff i d a vi t w h i c h I b e l i e v e C h a i r, i s g o i n g 20 t o b e . . . a m a t t e r d e a l t w i t h o n p a p e r s. ADV SONI SC: Ye s. C h a i r, m a y. . . m a y I j u st d e a l w i t h t h a t i s s u e b e c a u s e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 4 : 2 2 ] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y] ADV SONI SC: Mboya deals U h , i n t h a t i s s u e . . . n o w, i n t h a t a ff i d a vi t M s with concerns about Page 158 of 203 a p o s si b l e c o n t r a ct 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 between PRASA and the DBSA. M s K w e y a m a , a t t h e e n d o f t h e l a st w e e k, f i l e d a o n e hundred page response to that and it would not be fair to Ms N g o y e t o d e a l w i t h t h a t m a t t e r. A n d w e t h o u g h t w e w o u l d e x e r ci s e i t f o r n o w a n d p o s si b l e deal with it on the papers or if it becomes n e ce s s a r y b u t u h , ce rt a i n l y i t s h o u l d n o t o c cu p y u s n o w b e ca u s e i t i s a co m p l e t e l y s e p a r a t e m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , t h a t i s f i n e . B u t t h e s u s p e n s i o n 10 that you are r e f e r ri n g to h e re , is that the suspension separate from... ja, it would be separate from the other one b e ca u s e t h e o t h e r o n e w a s d u ri n g M o n t a n a ’s t i m e . M S N G O Y E : M o n t a n a ’s t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M S N G O Y E : Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: So was there a second, third, f o u rt h s u s p e n si o n o r w h a t ? MS NGOYE: [ l a u g h s] C h a i r, i t w a s m y f i f t h b u t I l o st c o u n t of how many suspensions I had. 20 Probably it was the... it is t h e p r o b a b l y t h e s e c o n d , t h i rd o n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: . . . s u sp e n si o n b e c a u se r e m e m b e r, d i s m i s se d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : I w a s d i sm i s se d . I w a s s u s p e n d e d . Page 159 of 203 I was 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MS NGOYE: T h i s t i m e i t w a s. . . t h e r e w e r e t h r e a t s o f s u s p e n si o n b y t h e . . . b y t h e ch a i r p e r s o n . She... she left b e f o r e h a vi n g d o n e t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : A n d t h e n h e re u h , I w a s p l a ce d o n s u sp e n si o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : I t w a s. . . i t w a s s p e ci a l l e a ve . I t w a s n o t c a l l e d s u s p e n si o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : I t w a s c a l l e d s p e ci a l l e a ve . C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] MS NGOYE: Whatever that meant. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h a t g i v e y o u a n y co m f o rt ? MS NGOYE: No, it did not Chairperson. [ l a u g h s] Because bottom line is that my name was out there tainted under the g u y s t h a t I w a s co rr u p t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: 20 Yo u k n o w, t h a t w a s t h e . . . t h e . . . t h e . . . t h e message that was sent out there. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. S o t h i s i s t h e su s p e n si o n w i t h w h i c h y o u h a v e n o t d e a l t i n e v i d e n c e , o r a l e vi d e n c e ? M S N G O Y E : I h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h s u s p e n si o n i n t h i s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja . And we will deal with it some other time. Page 160 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: Ja. ADV SONI SC: It is such. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y. A l l ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : I t j u st . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I s t h e r e a so n w h y y o u c a n n o t d e a l w i t h i t n o w b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a r e s p o n s e f r o m s o m e b o d y o r. . . ? A D V S O N I S C : F ro m M s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 6 : 3 8 ] t o . . . t o . . . i t . . . b e ca u s e t h e s u s p e n si o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t s h e w a s t h e c h a i rp e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d at the time? A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, oh. ADV SONI SC: And it appears to be somewhat related to that. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V S O N I S C : T h e su s p e n si o n . CHAIRPERSON: So that s u s p e n si o n is related to the d e ve l o p m e n t t h e n ? MS NGOYE: 20 Ja. C h a i r, yo u k n o w, I . . . I t h i n k i t . . . yo u k n o w, o n e c a n . . . i t . . . a l l t h e se t h i n g s h a p p e n e d r o u n d a b o u t t h e same time. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MS NGOYE: Yo u k n o w, t h i s. . . t h i s o n e h a p p e n e d i n Ma y. T h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f b a n k i s s u e s h a p p e n e d i n M a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 161 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: I m e a n , I ra i s e d t h e s e i s s u e s i n t h i s m e e t i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M S N G O Y E : . . . t o w a rd s t h e e n d o f A p ri l . S o , y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t . . b u t I g u e s s t h a t t h e re a s o n w h y y o u c a n n o t d e a l w i t h i t i s b e c a u s e u h , s h e . . . s h e m u st st i l l l o o k a t u m , M s N g o y e ’s l a t e st a ff i d a vi t . M S N G O Y E : [ I n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 7 : 2 4 ] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 10 MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: And deal with it. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l l ri g h t . A D V S O N I S C : I t i s. . . i t i s a l o n g , l o n g . . . a h u n d r e d p a g e s. CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y. A n d . . . a n d . . . a n d i n p a r t , t h a t . . . t h a t d e a l s w i t h h e r sp e ci a l l e a v e o r n o t ? A D V S O N I S C : I d o n o t t h i n k i t d e a l s w i t h t h e s p e ci a l l e a ve . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b e ca u s e I a m . . . I a m t r yi n g t o s e e w h y w e c a n n o t d e a l w i t h t h e s u s p e n si o n p a rt . U h . . . 20 ADV SONI SC: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r. . . o r t h e s u s p e n si o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: Chairperson, when... when this a ff i d a vi t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: That everyone be complete. ADV SONI SC: W h e n t h i s a ff i d a v i t w a s b e i n g s e t t l e d w i t h Page 162 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M s N g o y e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. ADV SONI SC: . . . w e u n d e r st o o d i t . . . i t re l a t e d t o t h a t m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . H ’ m . I s t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: A n d t h a t i s w h y w e . . . w e j u st e x e r ci s e d i t f ro m t h i s p a rt o f t h e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. But is that st i l l the same u n d e r st a n d i n g n o w b e c a u s e I a m t r yi n g t o s e e w h e t h e r. . . 10 b e ca u s e i f i t i s n o t re a l l y r e l a t e d , I w o u l d l i k e u s t o f i n i s h t h e s u s p e n si o n u h , a n d s o o n . If it means that uh, if there was not preparation to deal with it, that... that is fine but maybe she can come back l a t e r t h i s w e e k. I j u st d o n o t k n o w h o w. . . h o w i n v o l v e d i t w o u l d b e s o t h a t w e t r y a n d f i n i sh w i t h t h a t . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u st k e e n t o f i n i s h w i t h t h a t . ADV SONI SC: I . . . I m u st co n f e s s C h a i r p e r s o n u h , i t h a s b e e n a b u s y p e ri o d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. A D V S O N I S C : . . . b e ca u s e w e h a v e b e e n g e t t i n g l o t s o f d o t s. S o I h a ve n o t c o n si d e r e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : . . . w h e t h e r I sh o u l d d e a l w i t h t h e s u s p e n s i o n separately from that. Page 163 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: Can I look at it and come back to you? CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. A D V S O N I S C : U h , u h , t h a t i s t o m o rr o w o r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Maybe tomorrow you can let me know? A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: If... if... if necessary uh, depending on how m u c h u h , M s N g o y e w i l l h a v e t o s a y o n t h e su s p e n s i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: . . . t h a t m a y b e l a t e r i n t h e w e e k, s h e c a n c o m e b a c k a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: ...complete it. Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, i n d e e d s h e c a n . Ye s, C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l l ri g h t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s i n o r d e r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, t h a n k y o u . A D V S O N I S C : N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t I d o s e e t h a t t h e a ff i d a vi t i t . . . t h e s u s p e n si o n i s a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h i n a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t y o u a l re a d y h a ve , h e y ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s. . . t h a t i s. . . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 164 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 A D V S O N I S C : [ I n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 9 : 3 3 ] C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w i t h t h e C o m m i s si o n ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s ri g h t C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o . . . s o t h e a ff i d a vi t i s t h e r e . It is a q u e st i o n o f g o i n g t h r o u g h i t a n d r e f l e ct i n g u h , t h e o t h e r. I t i s n o t l i ke a st a t e m e n t m u st st i l l b e t a k e n . 10 ADV SONI SC: No. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: H’m. H’m. CHAIRPERSON: U h , s o p o s si b l e u h , l e t u s c o n t i n u e . Uh, re f l e ct o n i t . I f p o s si b l e , e ve n t o m o r r o w u h , s h e . . . s h e c o u l d come in. I k n o w w e h a ve a n u m b e r o f w i t n e s s e s b u t t h o se . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V S O N I S C : I t w i l l b e s h o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e v e r y s h o rt . A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. 20 MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: So there... there will be time. MS NGOYE: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Depending what... but later in the week is a n o t h e r p o s si b i l i t y a s w e l l . Page 165 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S O N I S C : N o w, y o u s a y t h a t a n o t h e r m e e t i n g w a s t o b e h e l d . Wa s t h e re a n o t h e r m e e t i n g ? MS NGOYE: It was never held Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : N o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. ADV 10 SONI SC: ...although you were... yo u w e re on s u s p e n si o n , d o y o u k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h i s i n i t i a t i v e , i n i t i a t i v e t o s e t t l e S i y a y a a n d t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r s? MS NGOYE: We l l , I d o n o t t h i n k a n y. . . a n yt h i n g h a p p e n e d C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e u h , t h e o n e t h i n g t h a t I m u st st a t e i s t h a t t h e G r o u p C F O , t h e a ct i n g G r o u p C F O a t t h e t i m e , a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g c a m e t o m y o ff i c e a n d s a i d , “l i st e n , I w a s v e r y u n co m f o rt a b l e t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e m a t t e r s b e c a u s e I d o n o t f a v o u r t h e m a n d u n l e s s yo u a s t h e G ro u p e x e c u t i ve o f L e g a l a r e i n v o l ve d i n a l l t h e s e m a t t e r s, I a m n o t , y o u k n o w, t o c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e s e m a t t e r s ”. 20 A s f a r a s I kn o w C h a i r p e r s o n u m , t h e s e m a t t e r s re a l l y e ff e ct i v e l y d i e d a n a s s u r e d d e a t h a n d . . . a n d u m , f o r a s l o n g u h - u h - u h t h a t . . . t h e G r o u p C E O , a ct i n g G r o u p C E O w a s around at the time. S o I d o n o t t h i n k a n yt h i n g h a p p e n e d o f it. ADV SONI SC: T h e n c o m i n g b a c k t o w h a t t h e a ct i n g D G Page 166 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 said at the meeting. MS NGOYE: H’m. ADV SONI SC: H e s a y s t h a t t h e re w e r e co m p l a i n t s e ve n a m o n g st P R A S A s t a ff m e m b e r s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: Ja. ADV SONI SC: . . . a b o u t h o w l e g a l f u n ct i o n t o g e t h e r w i t h a p a rt i c u l a r l a w f i r m w a s t r e a t i n g e m p l o y e e s. Wa s h e t a l ki n g a b o u t f r o m a r e so u r c e s p o i n t o f vi e w o r w a s h e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e f a ct t h a t y o u w o u l d a d vi s e t h a t t h i s o u g h t n o t t o b e d o n e 10 a n d y o u c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i t h t h i s c o n t r a ct a n d s o o n ? M S N G O Y E : C h a i rp e r s o n , a . . . a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n , w e h a v e b e e n u n d e r si e g e e v e r si n ce u h - u h D r P o p M o l e f e i n i t i a t e d t h e . . . t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n p r o ce s s a n d P R A S A . A n d u n f o rt u n a t e l y, t h e r o l e t h a t w e p l a y e d w i t h i n t h e organisation, I guess everybody assumed that we were the e n e m y, y o u k n o w, i n d e a l i n g w i t h t h e m a t t e r s. O u r r o l e w a s t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r s a s. . . a s. . . a s t h e y h a p p e n e d a n d u h , o b vi o u sl y, w e w e r e n o t n e c e s s a ri l y i n v o l v e d i n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s p e r s e b e c a u se t h e y w e r e r u n 20 by the board. B u t w h e n i t c a m e t o l i t i g a t i o n a n d i n d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s, t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n w a s q u i t e i n v o l ve d . And... and if y o u . . . i f y o u r e c a l l C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e s e c o n d a ff i d a vi t o f S i y a n g e n a w a s d e p o se d t o b y m e . N o w, I . . . I . . . I a m a co l l e a g u e a n d . . . a n d . . . a n d , yo u Page 167 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 k n o w, I si t w i t h t h e s e c o l l e a g u e s w i t h i n . . . w i t h i n e x c o a n d u h , cl e a rl y p e o p l e co m p l a i n t a b o u t m e u h , a n d t h e y t o o k i t t h a t I d i d w h a t I d i d i n m y ca p a ci t y a s M a rt h a N g o ye a n d n o t i n m y c a p a c i t y a s t h e G ro u p E x e c u t i v e L e g a l , R i s k a n d C o m p l i a n c e on behalf of PRASA. So a lot of people because they found themselves to b e f o u n d w a n t i n g a s a r e s u l t o f t h e s e u h- u h i n v e st i g a t i o n s and the outcome thereof. Th e y took issue with me p e r s o n a l l y a n d r e p o rt e d m e , y o u kn o w. 10 A t o n e i n st a n c e , t w o o f m y c o l l e a g u e s r e p o rt e d m e t o the c h a i r p e r so n to the... u h- u h , to the... to the Judge Makhubele... uh, Chairperson Makhubele. And that too became s u ch an issue within the o r g a n i s a t i o n t h a t I d i d n o t e v e n h a v e a u t h o ri t y, yo u k n o w, t o deal with these matters on behalf of PRASA. S o , y o u k n o w, a l l t h e s e i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d a l l t h e s e l i t i g a t i o n s t h a t r e q u i r e d u s a s a l e g a l f u n ct i o n t o d e a l w i t h u h , st o o d u s i n n e g a t i ve e ff e ct w i t h t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n . A n d I g u e s s u h , t h e p o w e r s t h a t b e a l s o , y o u kn o w, 20 w o u l d u s e t h i s w h e n t h e y f o un d u s b e i n g a n u i s a n c e o f so m e s o rt t o re l a t i o n t o m a t t e r s w h i ch t h e y w a n t e d t o d o w i t h . S o t h e y w o u l d b r i n g i t b a c k, y o u k n o w u h , e v e r s o o f t e n a s t o h o w, y o u k n o w, t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n h a s c o n d u ct e d itself. And I guess for me Chairperson, the law firm that... t h a t . . . t h a t w a s r e f e r r e d t o u h , b y. . . b y. . . b y D r S i s h i t h e r e . Page 168 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 For me it could only be one law firm and that was the We r k sm a n s L a w F i rm , y o u k n o w. I m e a n , I . . . I t h i n k I h a v e b e e n a c c u se d o f m a n y t h i n g s a s f a r a s t h e We r k s m a n s L a w Fi r m i s c o n ce r n e d . A n d w h e n I st e p p e d b a c k a n d t h i n k a b o u t i t , I t h i n k [ l a u g h ] w h e n t h e b o a rd d e ci d e d t o . . . t o a p p o i n t e d t h e . . . t h e . . . t h e l a w f i rm , I was not even there. I was on suspension but they forget about that. But b e ca u s e i t h a d t o d e a l w i t h t h e l e g a l u h- u h , f i r m , M a rt h a 10 N g o y e i s i n v o l v e d a n d . . . a n d t h e re f o r e . . . S o I . . . I m e a n , I m u st s a y, I . . . I g u e s s I w a s st a t e e n e m y n u m b e r o n e i n . . . i n . . . i n P R A S A a s f a r a s t h e se matters were concerned and that is why I think he felt bold t o b ri n g t h i s u p b e c a u s e I g u e s s h e . . . h e j u st a l s o p r o b a b l y felt that uh, these matters needed to be dealt with in a p a rt i c u l a r w a y a n d w e w e r e b e i n g d i ff i c u l t . This the Group CEO at the time. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , y o u k n o w u h , t h e e vi d e n c e o f h o w t h e l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t a t P R A S A w a s b e i n g d e a l t w i t h , t h e 20 e vi d e n c e y o u a r e g i vi n g a n d t h e e vi d e n c e y o u g a ve l a st t i m e a s t o h o w t h e l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t w a s b e i n g t r e a t e d , y o u r s e l f a n d m i s s a n d so o n a n d s o o n , y o u k n o w u h , r e so n a t e s i n s o m e w a y a n d a l s o h o w, a c c o r d i n g t o M r M o l e f e , h o w h e a n d his board were treated. MS NGOYE: H’m. Page 169 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: Resonates in some way with how uh, M i n i st e r N e n e a n d M i n i st e r G o rd a n , P r a vi n G o r d a n i n . . . a s M i n i st e r s o f F i n a n c e a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s a n d h o w M r F u zi l e a s D G o f Tr e a s u ry, h o w t h e y t e st i f i e d a s t o h o w National Tr e a s u r y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M S N G O Y E : Wa s d e a l t w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: ...was being attacked. MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Even by the executive at cabinet level uh, f o r st a n d i n g f o r w h a t i s ri g h t a n d m a ki n g su r e t h a t t h i n g s a r e d o n e p ro p e rl y. MS NGOYE: H’m. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o . . . so . . . s o w h e n I l i st e n t o t h e e vi d e n ce y o u a r e g i vi n g . . . g i vi n g a n d h a vi n g h e a r d t h a t e vi d e n c e u h , I h a ve t o re m e m b e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: . . . w h a t t h e y w e r e s a yi n g a b o u t h o w, o n their National e vi d e n ce , Tr e a s u r y was being dealt w i t h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: ...and they were being attacked um, even by members within the cabinet. MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I t h i n k t h e y sa i d e v e n t h e f o r m e r p r e si d e n t uh, was um, h o st i l e Page 170 of 203 to the National 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Tr e a s u ry. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: H’m. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a t a c e rt a i n t i m e . MS NGOYE: H’m. C H A I R P E R S O N : U h , o f c o u r s e , I h a v e h a d e vi d e n c e a l s o o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a c c o r d i n g t o c e rt a i n se n i o r o ff i ci a l s, h o w M r M c B ri d e , M r K o ve n , Mr S e s h e g o , h o w t h e y s a i d , w h i l e t h e y w e re st a n d i n g f o r w h a t i s ri g h t a n d r e f u si n g t o d o w r o n g , h o w t h e y w e r e s u sp e n d e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: . . . a n d s u b j e ct e d t o d i s ci p l i n a r y a ct i o n s. T h e y h a d t o g o t o c o u rt . MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: T h e y h a d t o g o t o a r b i t r a t i o n s a n d u h , so w h e n I l i st e n t o a l l o f t h i s e vi d e n c e , I h a v e t o r e m e m b e r w h a t I h a v e a l s o h e a r d f ro m o t h e r d e p a rt m e n t s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M S N G O Y E : F r o m o t h e r. . . CHAIRPERSON: . . . w h i ch have got nothing to do w i t h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: ...PRASA but similar things happened t h e r e . U m , a n d o f co u r s e , I h a v e t o a l s o r e m e m b e r e vi d e n ce that we have heard of um, S A A . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: H’m. Page 171 of 203 senior o ff i ci a l s at 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: ...uh, Dr Dowa, I think is one of the... Ms Moshe was one of them and um, there was uh, miss if I am n o t m i st a k e n . before T h e y a l s o h a v e st o r i e s t h a t t h e y h a v e t o l d this C o m m i s si o n of how they were t re a t e d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: . . . w h e n t h e y s o u g h t t o st a n d f o r w h a t w a s ri g h t . M S N G O Y E : W h a t w a s ri g h t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d re f u s e d t o d o w h a t w a s w r o n g . MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: And how some of them were... were s u s p e n d e d f o r l o n g p e ri o d s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . w i t h o u t a n y d i s c i p l i n a r y h e a ri n g . MS NGOYE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d u h , u l t i m a t e l y, t h e y w e re f o r ce d i n t o a si t u a t i o n w h e r e t h e y h a d t o s e t t l e b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t h a ve e n o u g h m o n e y t o p a y l a w y e r s t o f i g h t f o r t h e i r ri g h t s. 20 MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: All of these things uh, they seem to create a p a t t e rn . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: Ja. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: ...of what was happening. Page 172 of 203 And... and it is 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 a l l ro u n d a b o u t t h e s a m e y e a r s. MS NGOYE: H’m. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u kn o w. E ve n w i t h S A A , y o u a r e l o o ki n g a t a ro u n d 2 0 1 5 , y o u k n o w u h , 2 0 1 6 / 2 0 1 7 b u t o t h e r t h i n g s happening e a rl i e r on. M c B ri d e ’s c h a l l e n g e s. Yo u go Mr Koven. to I PA D , M c B ri d e . . . Mr S o t h e ye a r s s e e m s t o , m o r e o r l e s s, b e t h e sa m e y e a r s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: 10 ...when these things seemed... seemed to h a ve b e e n h a p p e n i n g . MS NGOYE: Ja. B u t a l s o C h a i r, I t h i n k w h a t . . . w h a t c o m e s t o m y m i n d a n d . . . a n d w h a t . . . w h a t i s t ro u b l i n g i s t h e f a ct t h a t i n a l m o st a l l i n st a n c e s t h e p e o p l e t h a t b e h a v e i n t h i s m a n n e r a r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t s a y t h e y a r e f i g h t i n g c o rr u p t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : A n d . . . a n d f i g h t i n g c o r ru p t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : We c a n u n p a c k t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 M S N G O Y E : To s a y, “ w h a t i s t h a t y o u a r e f i g h t i n g ? ” CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : Yo u a r e r e m o vi n g t h e p e o p l e t h a t y o u k n o w a r e a n u i s a n c e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: . . . a n d w i l l st o p y o u f ro m d o i n g w h a t y o u w a n t Page 173 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 t o d o u n d e r t h e g u y s t h a t y o u a r e f i g h t i n g c o rr u p t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. MS NGOYE: As I say and I am... I am happy to deal with m y. . . m y s p e ci a l l e a ve C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: I w a s p a i n t e d a n d t a i n t e d a s t h i s co r ru p t o ff i ci a l . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : O n l y t o b e b ro u g h t b a c k. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: ...to PRASA without even being charged. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M S N G O Y E : B u t w h e n y o u g o t o G o o g l e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : . . . yo u w i l l n o t f i n d M a r t h a N g o y e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : T h e f i r st t h i n g yo u w i l l f i n d u n d e r G o o g l e i s. . i s 20 corruption and... and so on. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Allegations which were never proven. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Now as an employee, I do not have the powers t o g o a f t e r t h e . . . y o u kn o w. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] Page 174 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: ...to go to the media and say the Board of PRASA together with the Group CFO of PRASA have tainted me. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Yo u kn o w, I f o u g h t i n t e r n a l l y a n d n o t h i n g g e t s done. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: 10 I n f a ct , t h e y j u st d i s re g a r d t h e i s su e s t h a t I ra i se d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Even r e f e r ri n g to the p o l i ci e s within the organisation. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: It has been a nightmare Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: I f o n e m u st s a y. U m , b u t t h e r e a l i t y i s, I g u e s s, i f y o u b e l i e v e i n w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 M S N G O Y E : . . . yo u w i l l c o n t i n u e t o d o so . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. M S N G O Y E : B u t u m , i t . . . i t i s n o t f a i r. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : A n d . . . a n d I m u st st a t e i t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. Page 175 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: . . . t h a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i ch s o m e o f t h i s h a s b e e n c o n d u ct e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: . . . h a s r e a l l y c a u se d u m , u s u m , a l o t o f f u n e r a l . . . h e a rt a c h e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: B u t w e a re t h e r e . And I guess for me, it is always been about the... the... the... commuter Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 10 MS NGOYE: A n d I a l w a y s a s k m y s e l f “ w h y a r e yo u st i l l a t PRASA?” CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: And when I think about the plight of our people o u t t h e re . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: . . . i s t o s a y so m e w h e r e s o m e h o w m a y b e , y o u k n o w, so m e o f u s w i l l r e m a i n t o . . . t o g e t t h i s o r g a n i s a t i o n ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 MS NGOYE: For the sake of our people. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. MS NGOYE: B e c a u se n o b o d y s p e a k s f o r t h e m . They are n o t a n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I m e a n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M S N G O Y E : Yo u k n o w, i t i s j u st . . . i t i s j u st f o r m e . I t . . . i t . .. Page 176 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 i t . . . i t i s o n e o f t h o se t h i n g s C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t . . . t h a t re a l l y h a s. . . i t . . . i t l i v e s w i t h m e o n a d a i l y b a si s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : To s a y, I d o n o t k n o w w h a t i t i s t h a t I a m d o i n g wrong. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Or that people detest me in the manner that t h e y d o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 10 M S N G O Y E : . . . t o h a ve m e b e su b j e ct e d t o w h a t I h a v e b e e n s u b j e ct e d t o w i t h i n t h e o rg a n i s a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: But be that as it may Chairperson. I mean, you k n o w, I b e l i e ve i n w h a t I b e l i e v e i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . We l l u h , o f c o u r s e , I s h o u l d n o t h a ve uh, not mentioned Themba Maseko. I should have mentioned Themba Maseko as well. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Yo u k n o w. B e c a u s e h i s e vi d e n c e w a s u h , o n e o f t h e f i r st st o r i e s t h a t t h e C o m m i s si o n h e a r d u h , o f h o w he was t ra n sf e r r e d from GCIS to another d e p a rt m e n t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] MS NGOYE: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: . . . u h , b e c a u s e , o n h i s e vi d e n c e , h e h a d re f u s e d t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e . . . w i t h . . . w i t h t h e G u p t a s. Page 177 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y. A D V S O N I S C : [ t h r o a t cl e a ri n g ] M S N G O Y E : S o rr y, j a . A D V S O N I S C : I j u st w a n t t o g e t b a c k t o a p o i n t . W h e n y o u s a y w h e n D r S i s h i s a y s t h a t e m p l o y e e s co m p l a i n e d , i s i t t h a t you were challenged the validity of c o n t r a ct s they c o n cl u d e d ? 10 MS NGOYE: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : O r i s i t t h a t y o u t o o k d i s ci p l i n a r y st e p s ? MS NGOYE: We l l , C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, i t j u st d i d n o t make for se n s e me, a ct u a l l y, what he meant b e c a u se e s p e c i a l l y i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s e m a t t e r s, S i y a y a . I had dealt with the executives um yo u k n o w, re s p o n si b l e f o r. . . f o r t h o s e sp e ci f i c a r e a s w h e r e S i y a y a w a s o w i n g a l l t h e m o n e y. A n d t h o s e e x e c u t i ve s w e r e ri g h t h e r e . T h e y s a y, “ w e d o n o t o w n S i y a y a m o n e y ”. I . . . s o I d i d n o t kn o w w h a t h e w a s t a l ki n g a b o u t t o u h , a s f a r a s t h a t w a s 20 c o n ce r n e d . A n d I w a s v e r y cl e a r i n m y m i n d t o s a y, a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n , w e d o n o t a l s o j u st a t t e n d t o m a t t e r s w h e r e w e d o n o t h a ve u h , w h e re o u r p ro s p e ct s o f success are not... are not there Chairperson. We e n g a g e w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s q u i t e e xt e n si ve l y. Page 178 of 203 The 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 only u n d e r st a n d i n g that I had where he speaks about e m p l o y e e s n o t b e i n g h a p p y, f o r m e w e r e t h o se m a t t e r s w e r e t h o se employees who were found wanting within the organisation, were being dealt with. A n d w h a t w a s i n t e r e st i n g C h a i r p e r so n w a s t h a t i n t h o se m a t t e r s a n d M r D i n g i s w a y o c a n s p e a k t o t h i s, h e w a s the... the... the witness of PRASA who managed to have t h o se e m p l o y e e s, y o u k n o w, b e i n g d i s m i s s e d b u t o b vi o u sl y, t h a t i s n o t b e e n s p o ke n a b o u t . 10 I t i s a l w a y s, y o u k n o w, t h e p o w e r s t h a t b e t h a t . . . t h a t are fighting corruption. S o t h e w o r k t h a t t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n d i d w a s n e ve r r e c o g n i se d a s f a r a s t h e se w o r k. . . t h i s w o r k was concerned. But those people that felt that they needed to c o m p l a i n a b o u t u s, y o u k n o w, w o u l d u s e t h a t o p p o rt u n i t y w h e n t h e y r e a l i se d t h a t u h , u n d e r t h e p o w e r s t h a t b e , a l s o d i d n o t n e c e s sa ri l y s u p p o rt t h e w o r k t h a t w e w e re d o i n g . S o i f y o u u n p a c k i t C h a i r, I j u st l i st e n e d a n d I t h o u g h t “o k a y, i t i s j u st o n e o f t h o s e a g a i n b u t b e i t a s i t m a y ”. 20 ADV SONI SC: I n y o u r e vi d e n c e o n t h e p re v i o u s o c c a si o n you were here, you made the point that if you look at the S i y a n g e n a c o n t r a ct , m a n y o f t h e m a t t e r s co u l d n o t h a v e b e e n t a k e n p l a c e i f p e o p l e h a ve b e h a ve d p ro p e rl y. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r. A D V S O N I S C : I m e a n , y o u t a k e D r P o n g o l a . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 179 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: Ja. ADV SONI SC: Mr Gansho. M S N G O Y E : Ye s. ADV SONI SC: A n d . . . a n d a n u m b e r o f t h e m w h o m yo u named on the advocation. MS NGOYE: Ja.. ADV SONI SC: N o w cl e a rl y, a s I u n d e r st o o d y o u r e vi d e n c e o n t h e p r e vi o u s o c c a si o n , t h e y s e e m t o h a v e a n i n v e st m e n t i n t h e c o n t r a ct i t s e l f . 10 MS NGOYE: T h a t i s c o rr e ct C h a i r. I m e a n , I h a v e j u st p r o v e n . M r G a n s h o i s o u t o f t h e o r g a n i sa t i o n t o d a y b e ca u s e it was found that in the Siyangena matter he benefited with t h e p r o p e rt y i n D u rb a n . Yo u k n o w, I w a s n o t t h e re , y o u k n o w, w h e n t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g b u t I m e a n , t h e f a ct t h a t n o w i t w a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n t h a t w a s r u n n i n g w i t h t h i s m a t t e r, j u st i t w a s t h e l e g a l f u n ct i o n t h a t . . . t h a t h a d a v e n d e t t a a g a i n st M r G a n sh o . I t i s a l w a y s a b s u r d t h i n g s . ADV SONI SC: 20 So if... if there were legitimate... well, not l e g i t i m a t e b u t i f t h e r e w e re co m p l a i n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e , i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e m p l o ye e s o f t h a t e l k i f I ca n p u t i t t h a t w a y. M S N G O Y E : I t w o u l d . A n d a l s o t h o s e C h a i r, t h o s e t h a t w e r e st i l l a r o u n d w h o s e m a t t e r s h a d n o t b e e n f i n a l i s e d b e ca u s e o b vi o u sl y, s o m e o f t h e m a t t e r s a r e st i l l h a p p e n i n g e v e n n o w, Page 180 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 y o u kn o w. U m , s o t h e y h a d n o t b e e n f i n a l i se d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I g u e s s t h a t u h , i f a n a s s o ci a t e t h o u g h t there were proper grounds or any complaints by employees o f P R A S A a g a i n st y o u i n t h a t y o u h a v e d o n e s o m e t h i n g w r o n g , h e w o u l d h a v e h a d a l l t h e p o w e r t o t a k e a ct i o n a g a i n st y o u , w o u l d h e n o t ? MS NGOYE: He would. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. O r t o r e p o rt y o u t o t h e b o a r d o r w h a t e v e r. 10 M S N G O Y E : Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And did he ever do that? MS NGOYE: We l l , h e . . . h e . . . h e . . . n o , h e h a d n o t d o n e t h a t C h a i r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he attempted or what? M S N G O Y E : N o , n o t a ct u a l l y t h a t h e a t t e m p t e d t o . . . t o d o i t b u t . . . b u t u h , t h e C E O b e f o r e h i m u h , m i st e r u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ I n d i st i n ct ] MS NGOYE: Mr Sithole. CHAIRPERSON: H’m? 20 M S N G O Y E : S i t h o l e . U h , C h a i r, I . . . I . . . I h a ve b e e n t a k e n t o t h e c o p s. I h a v e b e e n , y o u kn o w, s u b j e ct e d t o a r r e st s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : B e c a u se o f t h e w o r k t h a t I d i d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: And as the CEO at the time, he believed that it Page 181 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 w a s n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e b o a r d t o d e a l w i t h m e i n a p a rt i c u l a r w a y. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : L e t m e s a y, I st o o d m y g r o u n d C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: And... and nothing came of that. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Because, once again, yo u k n o w, I had i d e n t i f i e d a n a r e a w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n . T h i s i s n o t p a rt o f 10 m y e vi d e n c e C h a i r b u t I a m j u st s a y i n g . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: I had identified an area within the organisation M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N : [ 0 1 : 2 7 : 5 4 ] MS NGOYE: . . . o rg a n i s a t i o n w h e r e t h e r e w a s co r ru p t i o n o f t h e h i g h e st n o t e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: Uh, in re l a t i o n to us dealing with um, c o m p o n e n t s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 MS NGOYE: ...within the organisation. At the time, I was t h e a ct i n g C E O o f P R A S A R a i l C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. MS NGOYE: And this issue had come to me. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : T h e n I w a s a c c u s e d o f a s sa u l t i n g a n e m p l o y e e . Page 182 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: One of the things that I said to the board Chairperson, I said, “Chairperson, if I in my capacity as the G r o u p C F O o f . . . o f . . . o f . . . I m e a n , C . . . t h e a ct i n g C E O o f PRASA Rail and the legal person for them, had done so, I w o u l d h a v e h a n d e d i n m y r e si g n a t i o n ”. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: I w o u l d n o t e v e n , y o u k n o w, u h - u h - u h o p p o s e to this thing. 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: I had the cops come to fetch me there at P R A S A . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: ...because of this allegation. The Group CEO w a s p u r s u i n g t h i s i s s u e w i t h a p a rt i c u l a r e m p l o y e e t h a t w a s there...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: . . . t h a t h a d a l l e g e d t h a t I a s sa u l t e d h e r i n a m e e t i n g f i l l e d w i t h e i g h t p e o p l e C h a i rp e r s o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: W h o c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d t h e re w a s n o s u c h assault. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: But he believed that I did. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. Page 183 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 M S N G O Y E : B e c a u se I h a d c l e a rl y p i n n e d so m e t h i n g t h a t h e p o s si b l e w a s i n v o l v e d i n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : B u t b e ca u s e I h a d f o u n d t h a t , I . . . I w a s re a l l y a nuisance. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. MS NGOYE: S o a l l t h e s e . . . a l l t h e se t h i n g s C h a i rp e r s o n c o m e a n d . . . a n d I re p o rt e d t h e s e t h i n g s t o t h e b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 10 MS NGOYE: I... I made reference to these things to the board. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : I n f a ct , t h e p e r s o n t h a t w a s p r o se c u t e d w a s m e a n d n o t n e c e s s a ri l y t h e p e r s o n t h a t I h a d i n d i c a t e d t o h a ve p o s si b l e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n t h e co r ru p t i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h o se m a t t e r s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M S N G O Y E : To t h a t p e r s o n , t h a t n o t h i n g w a s d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. 20 M S N G O Y E : B u t I w a s so m e b o d y w h o w a s vi l i f i e d w i t h i n t h e organisation and... and... and treated as though as I am the o n e t h a t i s c a u si n g p r o b l e m s w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. A D V S O N I S C : J a , M s N g o y e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: We l l , when you Page 184 of 203 met them, c a u si n g 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 p r o b l e m s b y i d e n t i f yi n g a l l t h e s e a r e a s o f c o rr u p t i o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e ct , C h a i r. J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] Ye s. ADV SONI SC: M s N g o y e , w h e n . . . ri g h t a t t h e o u t s e t o f your affidavit one of the things you pointed out was that there were certain people who exercised undue influence at PRASA. MS NGOYE: That is correct, Chairperson. MR SONI SC: 10 Now you in your affidavit in your conclusion with the same theme and can I just ask you to summarise what you say or what you said in the conclusion as contained in the affidavit? MS NGOYE: Can read it, I think it is – let me read it, there is so much. Under paragraph 58 I say: “I submit that the a foregoing matters prompt the following concern. PRASA concludes contracts with service providers running into ten so hundreds of millions of Rands. As I have pointed out, some contractors have undue influence with persons in 20 key positions at PRASA. When disputes arise, usually about payment, often legitimate questions are raised about the validity of the award of the tender or the terms and scope of the contract. Given that involving these Section are 217 often of Page 185 of 203 constitutional the issues Constitution and 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 administrative actions, such dispute ought to be properly decided by the courts.” I most cases you find that the tender processes were not f o l l o w e d , C h a i r, w e h a v e g i v e n t h a t e v i d e n c e h e r e w h e r e , y o u k n o w, a n d t h e n y o u s a y w a s t h e p r o c e s s f a i r ? Section 217 of the Constitution requires as a state of organ to b e h a v e i n a p a r t i c u l a r w a y. That was the approach that was adopted by the legal function because we are trying to p r o t e c t t h e i n t e r e s t o f P R A S A , C h a i r, a n d t o d o w h a t i s 10 right. H o w e v e r, w h a t I h a v e d e s c r i b e d a b o v e d e m o n s t r a t e that that approach is often undermined by senior persons at PRASA. Settlements are concluded and when the legal f u n c t i o n a t t e m p t s t o a c t i n P R A S A’ s b e s t i n t e r e s t s , s t e p s are taken against us. Should I continue, Chair? MR SONI SC: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s . “This cannot be in the best interest of PRASA, for our experience is that the settlement route is adopted not only when influential persons 20 are involved but is extended to others as well, to P R A S A’ s g r a v e prejudice. Allied to this is the pattern of appointing people in acting capacities and such persons are easily manipulated.” P e o p l e g e t s c a r e d , C h a i r, a n d w e h a v e s e e n i t . Yo u k n o w, I mean, when Mr Montana fired me he appointed a guy who Page 186 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 did not have a legal experience to head up the legal function. MR SONI SC: MS NGOYE: Say that again please? When I was fired in 2015 by Mr Montana, the person who acted in my stead was actually a gentleman who reported to me and had no legal background. petrified. He was petrified. He was I mean, because immediately after that what he was required to do was to sign invoices o f l a w f i r m s t h a t t h e y k n e w, M r M o n t a n a k n e w, w e r e n o t 10 agreed to sign. S o t h e u n f o r t u n a t e , y o u k n o w, g e n t l e m a n , was to subjected that and found himself signing, but petrified. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d i d n o t c o v e r t h a t l a s t t i m e , d i d you? MS NGOYE: N o , I d i d n o t , I a m j u s t s a y i n g , y o u k n o w, a s just as an example of …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Yo u j u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t ? Ja, of this thing, you k n o w, and …[intervenes] 20 CHAIRPERSON: Were there no legal people in your department, legally qualified people [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] MS NGOYE: There were, Chairperson, but he went and g o t s o m e b o d y w h o w a s n o t a l a w y e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 187 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: To c o m e a n d h e a d u p t h e l e g a l f u n c t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Mr Thokolo Mohlake.. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Who was that? Is he still there? He is still there. He reports to me. He is the general manager responsible for insurance. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I think it would be important to get a statement from him. MS NGOYE: 10 At the time, yes. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: As to how it came about. Sure. CHAIRPERSON: How he was approached and how…[intervenes] MS NGOYE: How he felt and that. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he dealt with matters when he had no legal qualification and so on. MR SONI SC: Ye s . And the type of pressure that had been put on hm. CHAIRPERSON: 20 The type of pressure that he may have got. MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: H e m i g h t b e p r e p a r e d t o s p e a k n o w. J a , j a , j a . Ye s . A n d t h e n I s a y, C h a i r : Page 188 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 “The same I submit applies to appointing interim boards.” That was the position at PRASA for nearly 30 months. Now i t i s o b v i o u s l y m o r e . H o w e v e r, a t p r e s e n t , P R A S A d o e s n o t even have an a d m i n i s t r a t o r. interim board, it is someone called an That is a position that is not provided for in l a w t h a t a p p l i e s t o P R A S A w h o , i n e f f e c t , i s P R A S A’ s accounting authority and Group CEO all at the same time. I do not believe that this is lawful and I provided an 10 attached opinion to that effect, Chairperson. MR SONI SC: Now concerning that, I just want to conclude it with that, Chairperson, because there has been – well, perhaps not a development but I should place this on record. Yo u k n o w # U n i t e B e h i n d h a v e c h a l l e n g e d t h e v a l i d i t y o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a n a d m i n i s t r a t o r, i s t h a t correct? MS NGOYE: They have, Chairperson, the matter is in the Cape Division and it is before Judge Erasmus. MR SONI SC: 20 MS NGOYE: And what is the position at the moment? Well, they are waiting for judgment, Chairperson, my understanding is that we are waiting for judgment. MR SONI SC: The matter has been argued, though? MS NGOYE: Ye s , t h a t m a t t e r h a s b e e n a r g u e d . In fact, the judge had requested the parties to go and settle the Page 189 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 matter but I understand that there was no settlement r e a c h e d , s o o n e d o e s n o t k n o w w h e r e i t i s n o w. MR SONI SC: Mr Chairman, have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON: Earlier on when Mr Molefe was giving evidence, one of the matters he talked about was the fact that it would appear – and, of course, he is outside of PRASA so his knowledge might be limited – it would appears that notwithstanding the fact that the contract between PRASA and Swifambo was declared invalid, not 10 much seems to have been done since then to try and recover about R2,6 billion that had been paid. Do you know anything about what is happening or whether there have been any steps that have been taken in the meantime? MS NGOYE: with that Ye s , C h a i r. m a t t e r. Mr In fact, we are currently dealing Mashaba brought obviously a liquidation application to have Swifambo Leasing and some of its companies …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: 20 MS NGOYE: Liquidated. Ye s , l i q u i d a t e d . voluntary liquidation. He wanted it to be a So we joined as PRASA and said no, i t c a n n o t b e v o l u n t a r y, i t n e e d s t o b e c o m p u l s o r y. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: was appointed. Ja. So we intervened there and the liquidator So the liquidator is in the process of Page 190 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 dealing with getting monies back for PRASA. In fact what has happened is that about six, seven locomotives were s o l d a s p a r t o f t h e l i q u i d a t i o n p r o c e s s b u t o b v i o u s l y, C h a i r, if you look at the amount of money that was paid by PRASA, 2.6 billion, what the liquidator has in his account right now is only R65 million in relation to the six locomotives that he has sold. There are others obviously that are still in Spain that did not come through because we only received 13 of 10 the locomotives. must still be So there are seven that is here, that dealt with and there was one that was involved in an accident. W h a t i s a c t u a l l y i n t e r e s t i n g w i t h t h a t m a t t e r, C h a i r, as we speak, is that we still have attorneys on board that are representing PRASA on that and obviously we cannot let that matter go, Chairperson. What we are dealing with currently is the fact that Mr Mashaba – this is also a Mashaba – is busy bringing application after application to try and prevent this matter 20 f r o m – t h e l i q u i d a t o r s f r o m a c t u a l l y, y o u k n o w, c a r r y i n g o u t their function. The latest is that initially obviously our claim, he opposed the fact that we, as PRASA, were entitled to bring a claim. W e a r e t h e b i g g e s t c r e d i t o r, C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, f o r t h a t a m o u n t o f m o n e y. We had to fight that and Page 191 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 so we are in the process of dealing with those matters and it is preventing obviously the liquidators from continuing with their work in relation to dealing with that and coming – and finalising it because they have to deal with all these various applications that Mr Mashaba keeps bringing. In fact, right now one of the matters that we are dealing with is him challenging the appointment of the liquidators themselves. one 10 minute he is It is very convoluted. challenging the Yo u k n o w, appointment of the liquidators, the next minute he is saying to PRASA you are supposed to join forcefully in the proceedings and so it is so – it is a delaying tactic that is there but I think from a PRASA perspective, Chairperson, we have not let that matter go, we are dealing with trying to get our monies back. CHAIRPERSON: When was this Swifambo judgment, SCA judgment out? When did it come out? MS NGOYE: SCA was 20… CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR SONI SC: MS NGOYE: Ye s . ‘17/’18, ja. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 2017? ’18. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: ’17? 2018? Ja, 2018, I think. J a , ’ 1 8 , I t h i n k , C h a i r. Page 192 of 203 So 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 there has been those delaying tactics. CHAIRPERSON: Because, I mean, people who have r e c e i v e d m o n e y, w h o c l a i m t h a t t h e y r e c e i v e d t h a t m o n e y l a w f u l l y, t h e y w i l l d o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] MS NGOYE: Whatever it takes, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Whatever to – so PRASA has to really adopt a strategy that will match those delaying tactics. MS NGOYE: Ye s , j a . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Because otherwise if it does not adopt a strategy that will be up to those challenges, it will find a f t e r s o m e t i m e t h a t a n y w a y, t h e r e i s n o m o n e y. MS NGOYE: T h a t i s r i g h t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: So – and time is of the essence. Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: So I just hope that – because that is a l o t o f m o n e y. MS NGOYE: I t i s , C h a i r. Yo u k n o w, w e h a v e h a d a c h a l l e n g e , C h a i r, a n d I a m s u r e y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n where our lawyers withdrew for non-payment issues and it 20 is a known fact that PRASA has struggled with finances and one of the law – the law firm that is dealing with this matter pulled out because their fees were not paid. But we have since managed to sort those issues out and, you k n o w, w e h a v e m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e m a t t e r s t h a t we cannot afford not to deal with, within PRASA. Page 193 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 So there is a cage management process that has b e e n d e a l t w i t h a l s o b y o u r s e n i o r c o u n s e l , y o u k n o w, w i t h t h e l i q u i d a t o r s t o e n s u r e t h a t a l l t h e s e , y o u k n o w, l i t t l e matters that are brought by Mashaba can be dealt with in one so that we do not have to waste time. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t – j a , I g u e s s , y o u k n o w, y o u legal team I am sure with apply their minds also. MS NGOYE: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: 10 To t h e q u e s t i o n o f t o w h a t e x t e n t m u s t PRASA be confined to getting – recovering these monies from Swifambo which is being liquidated. MS NGOYE: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: As opposed to also looking at certain p e r s o n s w h o m a y h a v e b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e i n a c r i m i n a l w a y. MS NGOYE: Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: For PRASA losing this money or taking t h i s m o n e y. MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Because otherwise you will have a s t r a t e g y w h e r e p e o p l e w i l l e s t a b l i s h a c o m p a n y, a l e g a l e n t i t y, t o u s e i t t o d o b u s i n e s s , d o c r i m e a n d t h e n w h e n they get found out they say do not touch me, go only to the c o m p a n y. T h e n t h e y l i q u i d a t e t h e c o m p a n y. b e n e f i t e d f r o m t h e m o n e y. MS NGOYE: T h a t i s r i g h t , C h a i r. J a . Page 194 of 203 But they have 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: So you never get the money back all the t i m e b e c a u s e y o u l i m i t y o u r s e l f t o t h e e n t i t y, s o I a m s u r e that they must look at all of those things. MS NGOYE: Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: MS This a lot of money from the taxpayers. NGOYE: Ja. And we have pushing the Hawks, Chairperson, to do their work as well. 10 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s . Because it has been frustrating for so long where the evidence has been there. CHAIRPERSON: And what understand the position now? is holding back, as you That was the other matter I was going to find out. MS NGOYE: C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, i t h a s b e e n s o frustrating dealing with the Hawks because they come back with the same issues all the time and you just do not understand what they want. 20 For me the experience has been, you know – and it is with the greatest respect that one has, that we have in certain instances been given people where you can see this …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: They are not up to the job. No, they are not up to it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Up to the challenge, ja. Page 195 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: We have given inform ation and they com e back and they say we have not given information. But, you see, the other issue that we found at least as a legal function to be problematic is that since the Chairperson, Popo Molefe’s board left, everybody that has subsequently come in has come in and they have excluded the legal function when they deal with these matters. We were the ones that would go to the Hawks and we 10 would know what CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . documentation was given to the Hawks. MS NGOYE: So naturally when we are not there they will tell whoever they tell, who is meeting with them, what they w a n t a n d t h e y w o u l d n o t b e , y o u k n o w, c o u n t e r e d o n t h e information that they are given. So those delays have been there within the organisation and they have been frustrated to say we are there. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m e a n e v e n d u r i n g M s K w e y a m a ’ s board …[intervenes] 20 MS NGOYE: Even during Ms Kweyama’s board. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: The legal department was excluded? They want to meet the Hawks to the exclusion of the legal function, I mean – and when we met w i t h t h e h e a d , H e r m i o n e , a n d t o l d h e r w h a t s h e k n o w, s h e was astounded because she said in a meeting that she had Page 196 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 with the board, it is like they did not know what they were talking about. Yo u see, they because they were not there. would not have known We do not understand why they left us out. CHAIRPERSON: Had the board consulted with you before going there? MS NGOYE: No. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 10 To s a y t e l l u s w h a t i s t h e s t o r y ? No, Chairperson. What we offered in all respects, if anything, was to say to the board these were the investigations that were done. We would then invite the law firm, Werksmans, to come and give the board a summary of what had transpired because obviously it has been a subject of a lot of interest to say what has happened but what you found, Chairperson, is that as they m e t w i t h , y o u k n o w, t h e s e n i o r p e o p l e w i t h t h e H a w k s , y o u k n o w, G e n e r a l K h a n a , I r e m e m b e r t h e y m e t – t h e y w e n t t o a meeting with General Khana and we have met so many times this General Khana and we know what information 20 General Kana is saddled with but he in that meeting told the Chairperson of the board that we had provided nothing, no information to them about the Swifambo and the Siyangena and they could not obviously countenance that because they were not there to say no, but that is not true, t h a t i s n o t w h a t w e k n o w. Page 197 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 So when you find that these things are happening w h a t d o y o u d o , C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, y o u j u s t s u p p o s e , leave it. CHAIRPERSON: a d m i n i s t r a t o r. So at this stage the PRASA is under an I n s t e a d o f a C E O t h e r e i s a n a d m i n i s t r a t o r. Are you able to communicate directly with the Hawks? MS NGOYE: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: To t h e h i g h e s t l e v e l a n d s a y w e a r e frustrated because we give information and then the next 10 time people in the Hawks say we did not give them the information, this thing has been going on for a long time. Do you have that freedom to communicate directly? MS NGOYE: W e l l , i n f a c t , C h a i r, I h a v e i n s i s t e d t h a t I b e allowed to do that because it has been frustrating and the administrator has arranged a process internally that he has given the head of the human capital, the executive responsible for HR within the organisation to be the person that deals directly with the Hawks. So if the Hawks want to talk to any of us they would via through them. 20 So I made it very clear that I am not meeting with these people, I want the senior people within the Hawks because I have been here before. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s , y e s . And I met not so long ago, about last month, I think, Chairperson, I met with the Brigadier General, Page 198 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 Makinyana(?) who we had met with then when Dr Popo Molefe was the Chairperson. I s a i d t o h i m , I s a i d b u t Ta t a Makinyana you cannot come to me now but what I found interesting, Chairperson, was the fact that when the State Capture sat and they heard the evidence that I had given around Siyangena, they came back full force to say no, Martha, we want to give – we want to meet with you, we want to – we heard your evidence at the State Capture. And I was saying guys, this is not acceptable, you have 10 had this information, what has happened? Why have you not dealt with these matters? I mean even last week Friday I had a meeting with C o l o n e l Tr o l l i p a n d I s a i d t o C o l o n e l , C o l o n e l , I a m h e r e t o h e l p , y o u k n o w, I k n o w t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , s h o u l d y o u n e e d anything, let us talk, these things have been outstanding for a while. H e h a s g i v e n o n e a s s u r a n c e t h a t , y o u k n o w, something will be done but one must see it happening, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Yo u k n o w, M r S o n i , I n e e d t o h a v e evidence from the Hawks with special reference to the PRASA cases, what they have been doing. evidence. I need to hear what is going on. I need to hear There is a lot of money for taxpayers that is involved the complaints of crime that have been – that I have been told about. It should be in their own interest to come and – I know they Page 199 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 are going to come at some stage to talk about a lot of things but I want to hear about the PRASA cases between you and Mr Harley(?) but I think with regard to the PRASA ones you can deal with them because that is PRASA but you can talk to him in terms of whatever background might be happening. I need to hear – I need this whole thing to be cleared as to what is it that over the years they have done and what is it that they have not done and why have they 10 not done what they need to do? If they make out a proper case, if there are some things that must not be heard publicly because they might interfere with investigation or w h a t e v e r, t h e n a p p r o p r i a t e m e a s u r e s s h o u l d b e t a k e n b u t I want to know exactly what has been done all along about it. MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay and Ms Ngoye obviously is a source of a lot of information because she will be able to tell you, to give all the information about what has been 20 done. MS NGOYE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And I think that what should happen is t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n a f f i d a v i t , i f t h e r e i s n o t o n e a l r e a d y, which just talks about this is when we laid the complaints with the SAPS. Page 200 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MS NGOYE: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: This is when the complaints were transferred to the Hawks, this is when we had contact with the Hawks for the first time. This is how many times we have met with them and gave them briefings. MS NGOYE: We can do that. CHAIRPERSON: Here is everything that they have asked for and we have given them everything that they have ever a s k e d f o r. H e r e i s w h e n t h e y a s k e d u s a g a i n f o r s o m e t h i n g 10 t h a t w e h a d g i v e n t h e p r e v i o u s y e a r. Here are the people who have been involved, we would be dealing with one person and then they get changed and then we are dealing with another person who then asked us for the same thing. Let me get all of that. MS NGOYE: W i l l d o t h a t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ja. Will assist. CHAIRPERSON: Let us get all of that because as the delays continue cases get weakened. 20 MR SONI SC: MS NGOYE: Ye s . Ja. CHAIRPERSON: MR SONI SC: Yo u k n o w, t h e y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] T h e n m o n e y d i s s i p a t e s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d m o n e y d i s s i p a t e s , j a . O k a y, alright, so I will get a report back at some stage on that. Page 201 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 MR SONI SC: Ye s . Chairperson, may I just place on record that the Swifambo judgment in the SCA was handed down on the 30 November 2018. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: MR SONI SC: 2018, yes. 2018, yes. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 2018? O k a y, o k a y. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Thank you. No, I think that is the question that I – those are the questions I wanted to ask, otherwise you have got nothing further? MR SONI SC: I have got nothing. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Thank you very much, Ms Ngoye, we appreciate that you came. MS NGOYE: T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t c o m e b a c k b u t you will continue to work with the Commission. MS NGOYE: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR SONI SC: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: In regard to all investigations. Thank you very much. Will do. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn then and we will start at ten t o m o r r o w. MR SONI SC: As you please. Page 202 of 203 30 JUNE 2020 – DAY 227 CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0 Page 203 of 203