C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

30 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 7 3

20

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e f o r e I f o r g e t y o u n e e d t o ta lk to m e d u r i n g th e
b r e a k a b o u t th is lis t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y t h a t w e s t o p e a r ly t o d a y.

I

h o p e it w il l n o t b e n e c e s s a r y. I a m ju s t g o in g t o c o n ti n u e t o m o n i to r m y
s i tu a ti o n . I a m n o t s o w e ll s o – b u t – I a m m u c h b e t t e r th a n y e s te r d a y.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a m s o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h a t is fi n e . A s I f e e l n o w I th in k w e s h o u l d b e
a b l e t o g o q u i t e s o m e d i s ta n c e .

S o I w ill j u s t m o n i t o r m y s i t u a ti o n .

G o o d m o r n in g C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

M s W e n t z e l a r e y o u r e a d y f o r u s to

c o n ti n u e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k w h e r e w e w e r e w h e n w e a d j o u r n e d o n
Fr id a y w a s w h e r e C o lo n e l N a id o o h a d b e g u n o r h a d j u s t s a i d t h a t th e r e
20

w a s a s u g g e s ti o n fr o m s o m e b o d y a t t h e b r a a i i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h o u s e
t h a t t h e y s h o u l d g o s o m e w h e r e . I t h i n k t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e .

Am I

r ig h t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t a k e i t f r o m t h e r e . M a y b e r e c a p in t e r m s o f
w h o h a d m a d e t h a t s u g g e s ti o n ?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s a n d C h a ir if I m i g h t j u s t g o o n e s te p b a c k
a ls o j u s t t o c l a r i fy s o m e th i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a id o o o n Fr i d a y a f te r n o o n y o u

t e s ti fi e d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d o n t h e e v e n in g o f t h e 2 0 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 a t
General Larzarus’ house and you said after there had been a
d is c u s s io n w i th r e g a r d t o t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f e v i d e n c e f o r tr a v e l r e c o r d s
– p e r ta in i n g to t r a v e l r e c o r d s .

Yo u s a i d t h a t C o lo n e l F M 0 9 a s k e d

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i f h e s h o u l d s p i n a s t o r y. W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d b y
10

that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

S o r r y M s W e n tz e l th e r e

s e e m s t o b e a p r o b le m w i th t h e s o u n d . C a n y o u j u s t g iv e m e a m o m e n t
or so?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I m a y b e f o r e I g o
f u r th e r w i t h r e g a r d s to m y te s ti m o n y o n F r i d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e r e i s ju s t o n e in c i d e n t
t h a t I n e e d t o c l a r i fy o r b r i n g t o y o u r a t te n t io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA

G A N G U LU

NAIDOO:

When

I spoke

of

a d m i t t in g t h e H a w k s r e g a r d in g p u tt i n g i n f a ls e c l a i m s I c o n f id e d in t w o
o f c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : N a m e ly C o lo n e l B a r n a r d

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a n d F M 4 0 . C h a i r w h e n – I a m g o in g b a c k n o w t o t h e – t h e m e e ti n g a t
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e w h e n F M – w h e n F M 1 0 s a id t h a t h is c o n t a c t a t
t h e H a w k s t o l d h i m t h a t I a d m it t e d t o p u t t in g i n f a ls e c la i m s a n d I a m
n o w o n th e s id e o f t h e H a w k s .

C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e o u ts id e o f m y s e l f

a n d t h e t w o H a w k s in v e s t i g a t o r s t h e r e w e r e o n ly tw o o th e r in d i v i d u a ls
w h o k n e w o f – o f m y a d m is s i o n s to t h e H a w k s . S o i t w a s n o t p o s s i b le
f o r a n y o n e e l s e t o k n o w a b o u t t h i s a t t h a t s t a g e . A n d t h e o n ly o t h e r
p e r s o n t h a t I b e li e v e s p o k e t o F M – F M 1 0 w a s F M 4 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

So it could not be – it

c o u l d n o t b e a n y o n e fr o m t h e H a w k s . I t w a s n o t p o s s i b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o I j u s t w a n te d to

c la r i fy t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll th e – t h e fo u r p e o p l e w h o k n e w a b o u t t h e

admission you had made to the Hawks were Colonel Barnard and the
p e r s o n th a t w a s w i t h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w h e n y o u to ld t h e m . A n d t h e n i t
w a s t h e tw o m e m b e r s o f t h e H a w k s , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :
20

That is indeed correct

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h o s e a r e t h e f o u r p e o p l e w h o k n e w a b o u t i t.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O u ts i d e o f m y s e l f y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Outside of yourself.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o y o u s a y th a t i t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n y o f

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t h e t w o fr o m t h e H a w k s w h o w o u l d h a v e s p o k e n t o a n y b o d y i n C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a b o u t y o u r a d m is s i o n s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r i t w o u ld n o t m a k e
s e n s e f o r th e m t o d o t h a t .

T h e y w e r e t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s a n d I w a s

li a is i n g w i th t h e m w it h r e g a r d s to i n fo r m a ti o n . I d o n o t t h in k th e y w o u l d
h a v e a p p r o a c h e d a n y o f s u s p e c ts a n d t o l d t h e m – g iv e t h e m t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n . S o i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

U n l e s s o f c o u r s e t h e y d i d n o t t h e ms e lv e s d ir e c tl y

s p e a k t o s o m e b o d y i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e t o t e l l t h e m t h a t b u t t h e y
10

s h a r e d t h e in f o r m a ti o n o f y o u r a d m is s i o n w i t h o n e o r m o r e o t h e r p e o p l e
w i t h i n th e H a w k s w h o m t h e y tr u s t e d w h o m ig h t h a v e b r o k e n th a t tr u s t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That could – that could

h a v e h a p p e n e d C h a i r b u t I – l ik e I m e n ti o n e d fr o m m y s id e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e r e w a s o n ly th o s e

f o u r in d iv i d u a ls t h a t I k n e w o f a t th a t s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Who know of – knew of

t h is in f o r m a t io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d in te r ms o f C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a n d t h e p e r s o n
w h o w a s w i t h C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a r e y o u i n a p o s i ti o n t o i n d ic a te y o u r
le v e l o f t r u s t w h e t h e r a n y o n e o f t h e m m a y h a v e t o ld G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o r
s o m e b o d y e ls e w i th in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a b o u t i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

C h a ir b u t t h a t e v e n i n g

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d h a d a lr e a d y i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s r e g a r d i n g m y

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
admissions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B e c a u s e th a t i s w h a t

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s to l d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o i t o n l y l e a v e th e o t h e r
in d i v i d u a l w h i c h is F M 4 0 th a t p r o b a b ly s p o k e to – to F M 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, o k a y.

A lr i g h t th a n k y o u .

Before we

p r o c e e d I j u s t w a n t to – to r e m i n d t h a t t h e – to r e m i n d y o u C o l o n e l
10

N a i d o o t h a t t h e o a t h t h a t y o u t o o k o n F r id a y c o n ti n u e s t o a p p l y u n t il
y o u h a v e fi n i s h e d y o u r e v id e n c e . I s t h a t a lr i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a i r p e r f e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u . M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o c o u l d y o u n o w d e a l w it h h o w
y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e s t a t e m e n t fr o m C o l o n e l F M 0 9 t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
t h a t w h e t h e r h e s h o u l d s p i n a s to r y. W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d b y t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I h a v e k n o w l e d g e

o f – o f w h e n h e s a i d t h a t s p i n a s t o r y w h a t I b e li e v e d t h a t m e a n t t o b e
w a s u s in g jo u r n a l is ts e i t h e r t o p l a n t i n fo r m a t io n w i t h i n t h e m e d i a t h a t
20

w o u ld b e i n f a v o u r o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is t h a t a t e r m t h a t y o u k n e w t o b e u s e d q u it e o f t e n
w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t o m e a n th a t a s t o r y m u s t b e t o l d t o
jo u r n a li s ts w h o w o u l d th e n b e e x p e c t e d to p u b lis h s u c h s t o r y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

N o t g e n e r a ll y C h a ir b u t

a t t h a t s t a g e t h a t is w h a t I u n d e r s to o d i t b e b e c a u s e I h a v e o th e r – I

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f o t h e r in c i d e n ts w h e r e j o u r n a l is ts w e r e e i t h e r p a i d o r
w e r e in t o u c h w it h C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e m e m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o is t h e p o s it i o n th a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t
spinning

a

s to r y

was

intended

to

me an

simply

based

on

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e t e r m a n d n o t b e c a u s e o f h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e
t e r m t o b e u s e d i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e g e n e r a l ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir i f – a s a s t a n d a l o n e s t a t e m e n t i t m i g h t
10

n o t m e a n m u c h r i g h t n o w b u t a s I c o n t i n u e w i t h m y – w i th m y te s ti m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I t m i g h t g i v e m o r e in s i g h t
o r m o r e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h a t s t a te m e n t m e a n t a t th a t p a r tic u la r
ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o w h a t d i d y o u d o a f t e r y o u le f t
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e th a t e v e n in g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

L ik e to t e s ti f ie d to

p r e v i o u s ly …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e h e m u s t f ir s t j u s t r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r y i n

t e r m s o f w h o m a d e t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t t h e y g o s o m e w h e r e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Ye s C h a ir i t w a s F M 0 9

s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e g o f o r d r i n k s a s i t – h e s a i d h e w a s e x tr e m e ly
s tr e s s e d . C h a ir I w a s a ls o s tr e s s e d b u t I w a s a ls o w e a r y t h is m i g h t j u s t
b e a n o t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty f o r m e to b e i n t e r r o g a t e d o r d e b r i e fe d b u t

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
h a v i n g s a i d th a t I a l s o d i d n o t w a n t t o c r e a te a n y s u s p ic i o n a s w e ll s o I
agreed to go.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

D i d h e s a y w h e r e y o u – y o u s h o u ld – w h e r e

t h e d r i n k s w o u l d b e – w h e r e y o u w o u ld g o t o h a v e d r i n k s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I w il l g e t t o t h a t i n a

m o m e n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

S o a s w e le f t G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e li k e I j u s t s a i d t h e r e w a s t h e s u g g e s t i o n w e g o f o r
10

d r i n k s w h i c h I a g r e e d to . W e w e n t to a n d I a m s p e a k in g n o w t h i s – th is
is m y s e l f , it is F M 0 9 a n d F M 0 8 . W e p r o c e e d e d to t h e H o li d a y – I t h i n k
it is t h e H o li d a y I n n i n – it is i n t h e p r e c in c t o f O R Ta m b o In t e r n a t io n a l
A ir p o r t . T h e o n e t h a t is a l o n g t h e R 2 4 i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t is a p u b i n t h e h o t e l

C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e n a m e I t h i n k it i s a K e g . S o w e g o t i n a n d
w e p r o c e e d e d t o g e t s o m e d r i n k s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e n t io n e d w h o w a s w it h y o u a n d I ju s t w a n t t o

c h e c k . Wa s i t 3 p e o p l e i n c l u d in g y o u ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a i r i t w a s F M 0 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: And then FM09 and yourself?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is in d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t y e s c o n ti n u e . Yo u g o t t o th e p u b .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . C h a ir w h i l e – w h i l e
w e w e r e w a i t in g f o r o u r d r in k s F M 0 9 s h o w e d m e a m e s s a g e o n h is

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
p h o n e . I t w a s B B M m e s s a g e . C h a ir I t o o k a g l a n c e a t i t . I c a n n o t s a y
f o r s u r e w e ll I d i d n o t s e e w h a t w a s a c tu a l ly o n t h e m e s s a g e b e c a u s e i t
– th e li g h t in g w a s n o t t o o g o o d . B u t a f t e r – a f t e r h e g l a n c e d t h e p h o n e
towards me obviously I could not read what was on the phone he said
t h a t w e a n d w h a t I u n d e r s to o d t h i s t o b e a s i n w e – a s in C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e o r I a s a n i n d iv i d u a l s h o u l d s t a y a w a y f r o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t
and General Sibiya.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: That was FM08?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 0 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 0 9 o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 0 9 y e s C h a ir. I s o r t
o f d is c a r d e d w h a t h e t o l d m e b e c a u s e i t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e b e c a u s e I
k n e w w h o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l Si b iy a w a s . A t th a t s t a g e ju s t
f o r t h e r e c o r d G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s , N a ti o n a l
H e a d o f t h e H a w k s a n d G e n e r a l S ib iy a w a s th e H e a d o f H a w k s G a u t e n g
Province.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s N a ti o n a l H e a d o f th e

Hawks?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

At that stage I had not

m e t a n y o n e o f t h e s e in d i v i d u a ls e x c e p t f r o m k n o w w h o t h e y w e r e a n d
w h a t p o s i t io n s t h e y h e ld .

S o I s o r t e d d is c a r d e d w h a t h e t o l d m e

Page 9 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
b e c a u s e I h a v e n e v e r m e t t h e s e in d iv i d u a l s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e c o n t e x t w a s f o r h i m
t o s a y y o u s h o u l d s ta y a w a y fr o m th e s e t w o i n d iv id u a l s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t a t a ll C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
h a d – I th in k I h a d tw o d r i n k s .

And we continued.

We

I am not sure how many drinks FM09

h a d . W e w e r e p r o b a b l y th e r e a n h o u r o r s o C h a ir b u t i t w a s – i t w a s
q u i te a – i t w a s a n a m ic a b l e s i t u a t io n . T h e r e w a s n o m o r e q u e s t io n s
10

put to me by FM09 nor FM08.
CHAIRPERSON:

08 Hm.

A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th e

s u g g e s t io n ? Yo u – d i d y o u j u s t h e a r i t a n d d i d n o t r e a c t t o i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I did not Chair because

lik e I a m s a y in g i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e b e c a u s e I h a d n o t m e t a n y
o f th e s e in d i v i d u a ls s o I j u s t s o r t o f d is c a r d e d w h a t h e to l d m e o r r a t h e r
d i d n o t p a y m u c h a t te n ti o n to it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t th a t s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

We were probably there

a b o u t a n h o u r o r s o a n d I – I th in k w e c a ll e d i t a n i g h t . W e d e c id e d to
go home.

F M 0 9 a n d F M 0 8 d r o p p e d m e o ff a t m y h o m e .

The next

m o r n in g C h a ir w h ic h is n o w th e 2 1 s t O c t o b e r 2 0 11 . C h a i r I j u s t w o u l d
lik e t o m e n ti o n a s w e ll a t t h a t s t a g e I w a s u s i n g – I w a s m a k i n g u s e o f
f o u r o r f iv e c e ll p h o n e s t h a t I h a d w i t h m e a t th e ti m e .

Page 10 of 156

O n e w a s my

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
o ffic i a l p h o n e fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .

T he other three or four that I

h a d w e r e p a y a s y o u g o c e ll p h o n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : B u t t h a t – b y t h a t s t a g e I
h a d – I h a d d is c o n n e c t e d m y h o m e p h o n e a s w e l l . T h e c e l l p h o n e s t h a t
I w a s m a k i n g u s e o f th e t i m e I to o k o ff t h e b a t t e r i e s , I t o o k o ff th e S I M
c a r d s s i m p ly b e c a u s e o f a ll t h e – t h e i n c id e n t s th a t h a d t r a n s p i r e d in
t h e p r e v io u s f e w h o u r s o r t h e d a y b e fo r e . T h e o n e p h o n e – th e o n e c e ll
p h o n e w h i c h w a s a p a y a s y o u g o p h o n e n o b o d y h a d t h e n u m b e r. N o n e
10

o f m y c o l l e a g u e s h a d t h a t n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I did not even know the

n u m b e r m y s e lf .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U
c o n ta c t w i t h C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e .

NAIDOO:

I e v e n tu a lly

made

C h a ir h e h a d g iv e n m e h i s c e ll p h o n e

n u m b e r o n th a t – o n m y fi r s t m e e ti n g i n S e p te m b e r o r m y o t h e r – t h e
s e c o n d m e e ti n g I r e f e r t o t h e 1 8 t h a n d th e 1 9 t h .

On one of those two

o c c a s i o n s h e h a d g i v e n m e h is c e l l p h o n e n u m b e r.
20

He said I should

k e e p i t in c a s e I n e e d t o c o n t a c t h i m f o r a n y t h i n g a n d I r e m e m b e r th a t I
in d e e d h a d h is n u m b e r.

S o I c o n t a c t e d C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e u s in g t h is

spare…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is n o w s t ill t h e 2 0 t h o r i s i t t h e 2 1 s t o f O c to b e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :
t h e 2 1 s t C h a ir.

Page 11 of 156

T h is is th e m o r n in g o f

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h m o r n i n g o f t h e 2 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I c o n t a c t e d C o lo n e l

R o e lo fs e . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I p h o n e d h i m o r s e n t h i m a m e s s a g e
fr o m t h is p h o n e . I t o l d h i m t h a t I n e e d t o s e e h i m u r g e n tly. I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r I t h i n k h e s a i d h e w ill – h e w i l l c o m e to – t o m e e t w i th m e
and I told him to meet with me at my house. I explained more or less
where it was.
10

C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e I w a s d r iv i n g a b a k k i e – a s t a t e

v e h ic l e s o I d e c i d e d t o w a i t o u ts i d e o n t h e r o a d s i d e i n t h e b a k k ie
w a i ti n g fo r C o l o n e l R o e lo f s e . I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e h e w a s a n d h o w l o n g
h e w a s g o in g to t a k e t o g e t t o m e e t w i t h m e . S o I w a s w a i ti n g f o r h i m
o n t h e r o a d s i d e s i t ti n g in t h e b a k k i e . W h il e I w a s w a it i n g f o r C o l o n e l
R o e lo fs e I n o t ic e d a b lu e A u d i a p p r o a c h i n g m y h o u s e . L ik e I m e n ti o n e d
e a r l ie r C h a ir t h e r e i s a f i e l d a c r o s s m y h o u s e s o I h a v e v ie w o f b o t h t h e
r o a d s l e a d i n g to my h o u s e s o i t is q u i t e a f a i r v ie w o f w h a t i s g o in g o n
around me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r b a k k ie w a s i t p a r k e d n o t fa r fr o m t h e g a t e t o

y o u r h o u s e o r w a s i t p a r k e d q u it e s o m e d is t a n c e a w a y f r o m y o u r
20

house?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r i t w a s p a r k e d n e a r
t h e g a t e b u t o n t h e r o a d n o t i n fr o n t o f th e g a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
parked on the road.

Page 12 of 156

I n t h e d r iv e w a y i t w a s

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I d i d th is p u r e ly s o I

c o u l d h a v e a f a ir v i e w o f – o f w h a t i s h a p p e n in g i n fr o n t o f m e a n d t h e
s id e o f m e a n d a t th e b a c k o f m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

J u s t t o s e e v e h ic l e s

a p p r o a c h i n g o r a n y th i n g lik e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ar o u n d a b o u t w h a t t i m e o f t h e m o r n i n g w a s it w h e n

y o u w e r e – w h e n y o u – y o u w e r e w a i ti n g t h e r e f o r C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
p r o b a b ly a r o u n d n i n e – n in e o r t e n . I m u s t a d d a s w e ll t h a t I d id n o t g o
to work that – that morning or that day which is the 21st.
CHAIRPERSON: And I know that …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I d i d n o t – I d id n o t

r e p o r t t o w o r k t h a t d a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I k n o w t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d I th in k t h a t e i t h e r t h e
1 8 t h o r 1 9 t h w a s a Fr i d a y, a m I c o r r e c t ?

O n e o f th o s e t w o ?

Or did I

m is u n d e r s t a n d y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a i r t h e 2 0 t h w h e n I
20

d r o p p e d o ff G e n e r a l – I p ic k e d u p G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d I d r o p p e d h i m
o ff a t h is o ff ic e a n d t h a t is w h e n I t o ld h i m I w a n t t o g o h o m e t o r e s t .
T h a t w a s th e 2 0 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

And you cannot remem ber what day of the week it

was?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e – t h e …

Page 13 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e 2 0 t h ?

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h e 2 0 t h w a s a Th u r s d a y
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a T h u r s d a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s i t b e –
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e th e
2 1 s t O c to b e r v e r y c l e a r ly b e c a u s e i t w a s a F r i d a y th a t i s t h e d a y w e
w e r e a d m it t e d i n t o t h e w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. S o w h i le y o u w e r e w a i ti n g e i t h e r in
t h e b a k k i e o r o u ts i d e t h e b a k k i e o n t h e r o a d y o u s a i d y o u s a w – y o u
s a w s o m e v e h ic le .
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir I w a s s e a te d in t h e b a k k i e b u t th e b a k k i e w a s

p a r k e d o n t h e r o a d s i d e a n d I n o t ic e d t h i s – t h i s v e h i c l e a p p r o a c h in g m y
h o u s e . I t w a s a b lu e A u d i. A s i t g o t n e a r I n o t ic e d i t w a s F M 1 0 . H e
parked alongside me.

H e d i d n o t g e t o ff n e i t h e r d id I g e t o ff o f m y

v e h ic l e . W e w e r e s p e a k in g th r o u g h t h e w i n d o w s o f e a c h v e h ic le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e a lo n e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e w a s a l o n e C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e t o l d m e th a t h e w a s

in s t r u c t e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o p i c k m e u p a n d ta k e m e t o h is o ffi c e
f o r a m e e ti n g . T h is i s t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t ti m e – w h a t ti m e w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d t o h a v e

s t a r t e d w o r k th a t d a y ?

Page 14 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

C h a ir w e n o r m a ll y s ta r t

a t h a l f p a s t s e v e n b u t l ik e I s a i d o n th a t Fr id a y I d i d n o t r e p o r t t o w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A lr i g h t.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
a r o u n d n in e o r te n in t h e m o r n i n g .

C h a ir t h i s w a s p r o b a b ly

I could be wrong but it was

d e f in i te ly b e f o r e tw e l v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a c t u a l ly g o t q u i t e a

s h o c k w h e n I s a w h i m fi r s t a p p r o a c h i n g b e c a u s e I w a s a c tu a lly w a i t in g
10

f o r C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e t o c o m e a n d m e e t w i t h m e .

S o t h is p u t m e i n

q u i te a d i l e m m a b e c a u s e i f C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e s h o w e d u p a t t h e t i m e t h a t
h e w a s th e r e th e n I w o u l d h a v e h a d a p r o b le m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o h e – I tr i e d t o g e t o u t
o f i t C h a ir. I g a v e h i m s o m e e x c u s e . I t h i n k I to l d h i m t h a t I n e e d e d t o
t a k e m y w i f e t o t h e d o c to r o r I n e e d e d to t a k e h e r s o m e w h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e d id n o t b a c k d o w n .

H e in s is t e d t h a t I c o m e . I c o u ld s e e t h a t h e w a s – h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o
20

le t g o s o I e v e n tu a l ly d e c i d e d t h a t I w il l g o b u t I to ld h i m t h is i s n o w
F M 1 0 I t o l d h i m I w il l – I w i ll f o ll o w h i m in m y v e h ic l e b e c a u s e h e
w a n t e d m e t o c o m e w i th h i m i n h is c a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I w o n d e r w h y h e w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d t h a t .

Do

y o u h a v e a n y i d e a ? Yo u h a d y o u r o w n o ffi c ia l c a r w i t h y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t t h a t s t a g e y e s C h a ir.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
I t w a s n o t m y o w n o ff ic ia l c a r. M y – t h e c a r t h a t I w a s d r iv i n g a t t h a t
s t a g e w a s in th e g a r a g e . I w a s u s i n g – t h i s w a s o n e o f th e p o o l c a r s o f
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t I w a s u s in g a t t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : W h i le m y o w n c a r w a s in
the garage.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

E v e n t u a ll y w e – I

d e c i d e d – w e ll I w a s n o t g o i n g t o g o w i t h h i m .
10

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry you – I think you said that you know why or
y o u k n e w w h y h e w a n t e d y o u t o r a t h e r g o w i th h i m i n t h e c a r t h a t h e
w a s d r iv in g r a th e r t h a n fo ll o w i n y o u r o w n c a r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair I cannot say for

sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W h y h e i n s i s te d th a t I

come with him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t e v e n tu a lly I – I s a i d
20

– I d i d n o t [i n d is t i n c t] t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d f o ll o w h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffi c e

is i n C e n tu r i o n I w i ll n o t m e n ti o n w h e r e b e c a u s e i t is a c o v e r t p r e m i s e s .

Page 16 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W h e n w e g o t to t h e o ff ic e
o b v i o u s l y F M 1 0 w a s t h e r e a lr e a d y h e h a d p a r k e d h is c a r. I p a r k e d t h e
v e h ic l e t h a t I w a s d r iv i n g in a b a s e m e n t o f t h e – o f th e o ff ic e .

As I

w a lk e d u p t o th e r e c e p t i o n o f – o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ff ic e I n o t ic e d
Colonel

Barnard

was

present

was

speaking

to

another

C o lo n e l

F u r s t e n b e r g . F M o b v io u s ly F M …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e n a m e o f t h e o th e r C o l o n e l ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o l o n e l F u r s t e n b e r g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h o w d o y o u w r it e th a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is I th i n k i t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g in y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t is F- u - r - s - t- e - n – o n

p a g e 0 6 5 C h a ir o n 2 8 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir y o u w i ll s e e i t a t th e b o t to m o f th a t

page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s . F- u - r - s - t- e - n - b - u - r - g . F u r s te n b u r g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L ik e I m e n ti o n e d C o l o n e l
B a r n a r d w a s t h e r e . F M 0 9 t h i s is C o l o n e l F M 0 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 17 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

A n d F M – s o r r y C h a ir.

F M 0 7 w a s a ls o p r e s e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir w h e n I l ik e I s a i d

w h e n I g o t t o th e b a s e m e n t a n d n o ti c e d a l l t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls l ik e I h a v e
ju s t m e n ti o n e d p r e s e n t I r e a lis e d t h a t t h i s w a s g o in g to b e a n o t h e r –
a n o t h e r i n t e r r o g a ti o n s e s s i o n .

I asked FM40 where or rather FM40 –

C h a ir s o r r y. I a s k e d F M 4 0 w h a t is g o in g o n . H e s a i d h e d o e s n o t k n o w
h e w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o c o m e to t h e o ffi c e t o h a v e a – f o r a m e e t in g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

A t t h a t s ta g e I – if I

r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly I t h i n k I s a id t o F M 4 0 c a n B u r r i e s n o t s h u t h i s
m o u th .
CHAIRPERSON: Was that a reference to Colonel Barnard?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is I m e n t i o n e d t o

FM40.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir if I r e m e m b e r

c o r r e c t ly G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a t th a t s t a g e w a s n o t a t h is o ffi c e h e w a s
g o n e f o r a m e e ti n g o r I th i n k h e h a d a m e e t in g w i th t h e In s p e c t o r
G e n e r a l o f I n t e l li g e n c e . T h is I p ic k e d u p fr o m t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I
h a d w i t h e i th e r F M 4 0 o r F M 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 18 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e I

r e a l is e d t h a t I h a d t o g e t o u t o f th is s i tu a ti o n b e c a u s e o n c e G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s c o m e s b a c k th e n t h i s – i t is g o i n g t o b e a r e a l p r o b l e m f o r m e .
C h a ir a t t h a t s ta t e I – li k e I s a id I r e a l is e d I n e e d e d to g e t o u t o f t h a t
s i tu a ti o n . I – I d e li b e r a te ly b e c a m e e m o ti o n a l. W h e n I s a y t h a t I s a i d
t o F M 4 0 a n d F M 0 7 th a t I h a d b e e n in t e r v i e w e d b y t h e H a w k s a n d n o w
b y m y o w n c o ll e a g u e s a n d I i n te n ti o n a ll y b e c a m e e m o t i o n a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
10

A t t h a t s ta g e I – if I

r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly I u s e d s o m e v u l g a r l a n g u a g e a s w e l l.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u s a y t h a t y o u d i d t h i s d e li b e r a t e ly a s p a r t o f

y o u r p l a n t o g e t o u t o f t h e s i tu a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s – i t w a s p a r t
d e li b e r a t e – i t w a s p a r t g e n u i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

B u t I w a s g e n e r a l ly

e m o ti o n a l – y o u k n o w t h e la s t f e w d a y s w a s q u i t e s tr e s s f u l fo r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d i t w a s li k e I s a id – i t
20

w a s – i t w a s g e n u i n e b u t a l s o d e l ib e r a t e a n d I s t a r t e d t o w a lk b a c k t o
m y b a k k i e w h ic h w a s p a r k e d in a b a s e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So that was before you could even enter the

r o o m w h e r e th e m e e ti n g w a s s u p p o s e d t o t a k e p la c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r th is w a s a ll

h a p p e n in g i n – o n th e o u ts i d e o f t h e b u i l d i n g . E v e r y b o d y w a s s t a n d i n g

Page 19 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
o n t h e o u ts i d e o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ b u il d i n g . I t w a s n o t o n t h e i n s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d n o t a r r iv e d y e t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t y e t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

S o I p r o c e e d e d t o w a lk

b a c k t o m y b a k k ie . F M 0 7 f o l lo w e d m e a n d s a i d t h a t y o u k n o w I s h o u ld
h o l d o n b e c a u s e t h e y j u s t w a n t to c le a r u p th e – o r c l a r i fy t h e w h o l e
s i tu a ti o n . I d i d n o t li s te n t o h i m . I w a lk e d t h r o u g h t h e – t h r o u g h t h e
b a s e m e n t d o o r a n d a s I w a lk e d p a s t t h e d o o r I k i c k e d th e d o o r.
10

I

ju m p e d i n t o my v e h i c l e a n d I s ta r t e d t o d r iv e a t h i g h s p e e d b a c k t o m y
h o u s e w h ic h w a s in K e m p t o n P a r k .

S o i t i s p r o b a b ly a h a l f a n h o u r

d r i v e fr o m w h e r e I w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I g o t h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d a n y b o d y tr y t o fo ll o w y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w i ll g e t t o t h a t n o w

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O h fr o m th e o ffic e it s e l f
20

n o . I c a n n o t r e c a ll a n y b o d y f o ll o w i n g m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But when I got home

C h a ir w h i c h w a s a b o u t h a l f a n h o u r o r f o r ty m in u t e s l a te r – a f e w
m i n u t e s a f t e r I g o t h o m e I h e a r d a v e h ic l e c o m in g d o w n t h e – d o w n t h e
road near to my house at high speed.

Page 20 of 156

I asked my wife to check

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
b e c a u s e w h e n th e – t h a t v e h ic le e v e n t u a l ly s t o p p e d in fr o n t o f m y
d r i v e w a y a n d th e i n t e r c o m b u z z e d .
M y w i fe a n s w e r e d . It w a s F M 0 9 . H e w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e r e I
w a s . M y w i f e to l d h i m t h a t I w a s - I c a m e b a c k v e r y u p s e t a n d I w a s
a s l e e p a n d h e e v e n t u a l ly l e f t .

C h a i r b y t h i s s t a g e I w a s r e a l ly

c o n c e r n e d n o t o n ly o f m y o w n s a f e t y b u t t h a t o f m y f a m il y a s w e l l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t d i d y o u th e n d o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Can I just have a few

m i n u t e s C h a ir ? S o r r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a lr i g h t . Yo u m u s t ju s t t e l l m e i f y o u n e e d
u s t o t a k e a s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t o f f iv e m in u te s o r s o i f y o u n e e d t o ju s t
g e t y o u r s e l f i n a p o s it i o n w h e r e y o u a r e a b le t o c o n ti n u e t o g iv e
evidence.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a m fi n e .

I am

fi n e . I c a n c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

After

FM09

left

I

i m m e d i a t e ly c o n t a c t e d - c o n t a c t e d C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e a n d - a n d it s o
h a p p e n e d h e d i d n o t t u r n u p f o r o u r i n i ti a l m e e ti n g b e c a u s e I l a t e r
20

f o u n d o u t fr o m t h is - fr o m h i m h e w a s d e l a y e d a n d h e c o u ld n o t m a k e
t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e I w a s w a i ti n g f o r h i m o u ts i d e in th e b a k k i e b u t t h is I
f o u n d o u t l a t e r b u t a f te r F M 0 9 l e f t I i m m e d i a te ly c o n t a c t e d - c o n t a c t e d
C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I n e e d t o m e e t h i m v e r y, v e r y
u r g e n tl y.
W e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts C h a ir to m e e t a t a R o m a n ’s P iz z a .

Page 21 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
T h i s w a s in E d e n v a l e i n Va n R i e b e e c k S tr e e t o r Va n R ie b e e c k R o a d i f I
r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly. T h is w a s a b o u t f iv e o r s e v e n k i l o m e tr e s fr o m m y
house.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s r o u n d a b o u t w h a t ti m e w h e n y o u … ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th is w a s s t il l - s t il l

p r o b a b ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e 1 2 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B e - b e f o r e 1 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P r o b a b ly

before

12

C h a ir, ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e n I w a s f a c e d

w i t h a n o t h e r d i l e m m a to g e t ti n g t o t h i s m e e t in g b e c a u s e a t t h a t s t a g e
t h e b a k k ie t h a t I c a m e b a c k w i th w a s - t h e w a y my h o u s e is - i s s i t u a t e d
t h e b a k k i e is c l e a r ly ( j u m p i n a u d i o ) w i fe ’s c a r w a s p a r k e d n e x t t o t h e
bakkie.
S o I - I w e r e - I w a s j u s t a f r a id i f I u s e my o w n v e h ic le w h i c h
- w h ic h i s t h e b a k k i e t h e S t a t e v e h ic le t h a t s o m e b o d y m i g h t - m i g h t b e
20

s u r v e il li n g m y h o u s e a n d I c o u l d n o t u s e th e b a k k i e a n d I c o u l d n o t
p h o n e a n y b o d y b e c a u s e a t th a t s t a g e a l l o f m y fr ie n d s w e r e m y a c tu a l
c o l l e a g u e s f r o m C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
S o I c o u l d n o t p h o n e a n y b o d y h e lp - fo r h e l p . A t t h a t s t a g e
m y w i fe w a s f u ll y a w a r e C h a ir o f w h a t w a s g o i n g o n . I a m r e fe r r i n g n o w
t o t h e - to m y m e e ti n g w i th t h e H a w k s - t h e i n i ti a l m e e t in g t h e s e c o n d

Page 22 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
m e e ti n g o f th e 1 8 t h a n d th e 1 9 t h a n d w h a t t r a n s p ir e d t h e n ig h t b e f o r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And what happened the

m o r n in g o f th e 2 1 s t a n d I e x p l a in e d t o h e r th a t I n e e d e d t o g e t t o t h i s
m e e ti n g t o m e e t C o l o n e l R o e lo fs e a n d m y s i tu a ti o n . I a m n o t s u r e i f I
s u g g e s t e d t o h e r t o ta k e m e t h e r e o r s h e o ff e r e d t o t a k e m e th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair what happened

n e x t w a s lik e I s a i d m y w i fe ’s v e h ic l e w a s p a r k e d n e x t - n e x t to th e
10

b a k k i e . T h e o n e s id e o f t h e v e h i c l e - I a m r e fe r r i n g t o m y w i fe ’s c a r w a s p a r t i a l ly v is ib le o n o n e s i d e fr o m t h e r o a d s i d e . O n t h e o t h e r s id e
w a s th e - t h e le f t h a n d s i d e o f t h e v e h ic l e w a s n o t v is i b le fr o m t h e r o a d
s id e .
S o I t o l d my w i f e t h a t w e n e e d e d t o g e t - I - b e fo r e I g o t in in t o t h e v e h ic le I e x p l a i n e d t o h e r w h e r e w e n e e d e d t o - t o g o t o . S o
s h e h a d a - a n id e a o f w h e r e w e a r e g o in g t o g o . C h a ir i f I h a d w a l k e d
o u t n o r m a l ly to t h e c a r t h e r e w a s s t il l a c h a n c e t h a t s o m e b o d y m ig h t
see me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o I c r a w le d o n t h e

p a v i n g C h a ir. I c r a w le d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c r a w l e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c r a w l e d o n th e p a v i n g

s o th a t I w a s n o t v is ib l e fr o m - t o - to t h e - to t h e r o a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 23 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I f a n y b o d y w a s w a t c h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c r a w l e d o n th e p a v i n g

t o w a r d s th e s id e o f th e v e h ic le w h ic h w a s n o t v is i b le fr o m - fr o m t h e
road side.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
p a s s e n g e r - b a c k p a s s e n g e r d o o r.

I opened the left side

I c r a w l e d in t o t h e c a r C h a ir a n d I

hid myself behind the front two seats.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Just

so

that

nobody

could see me.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w h i l e o f - w h il e a l l
o f t h i s w a s h a p p e n i n g m y w i f e w a s - s h e w a s w a tc h in g th r o u g h th e
k i tc h e n w i n d o w a n d o n c e I w a s in t h e v e h i c le s h e c a m e i n t o t h e c a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I t o l d m y w i f e

whatever she does do not ever look back and speak to me. She must
20

ju s t lo o k in h e r r e a r - v i e w m ir r o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e j u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I t o l d m y w i fe t h a t i f

she speaks to me when she jumped into the car do not ever look back.
S h e m u s t n o t tu r n h e r h e a d b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Ye s .

Page 24 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S h e m u s t j u s t lo o k i n t o

h e r - i n t o h e r r e a r - v i e w m i r r o r. S o I …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S h e j u m p e d i n to t h e c a r

a n d I t o l d h e r to r e v e r s e a n d s h e m u s t b e c a r e fu l .

Check the - the

s u r r o u n d in g a r e a s i f th e r e is a n y v e h i c l e s p a r k e d a r o u n d . S h e d i d t h is
a n d i t w a s c l e a r. S o I t o l d h e r t o c o n ti n u e . I e x p la in e d t o h e r m o r e o r
le s s w h e r e w e n e e d t o g e t to .
C h a ir i t w a s - li k e I s a i d i t w a s a b o u t fi v e o r s e v e n
10

k il o m e tr e s .

As w e w e r e c o n t in u in g g e t t in g to t h is p o i n t w h e r e w e

n e e d e d t o b e . I to ld h e r t o c o n ti n u e c h e c k i n g h e r r e a r - v i e w m ir r o r s i f
a n y b o d y w a s f o l lo w i n g u s .

I to l d h e r t o l o o k o u t f o r t h e v e h i c l e s -

w h ic h v e h ic le s t o l o o k o u t f o r - s p e c i fi c o n e s .
M y c o l l e a g u e s a t th a t s t a g e I k n e w w h a t v e h ic l e s t h e y w e r e
driving.

S o I t o l d h e r t o l o o k o u t f o r t h e s e v e h ic l e s .

C h a ir.

We

e v e n t u a l ly

got

to

where

I needed

S h e c o n t in u e d
to

be

to

meet

C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e b u t a ll t h e w h i l e o n th is j o u r n e y to - t o g e t t o w h e r e
w e n e e d e d t o b e a t I - I w a s c o n ti n u o u s ly s p e a k i n g t o h e r.
J u s t c h e c k in g t o s e e i f s h e w a s o k a y. C h a ir I m u s t a l s o s a y
20

a t t h i s p o i n t my w i f e i s a c iv i li a n . T h is w a s q u i t e e x tr e m e f o r h e r to d o
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h i s . S o I w a s q u i t e c o n c e r n e d fo r h e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s w e l l - f o r h e r s a f e ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 25 of 156

B u t li k e I s a i d I h a d n o

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
o th e r c h o ic e .

Th a t w a s t h e o n ly p e r s o n I c o u l d h a v e tr u s t e d a t th a t

stage.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o I c o n t i n u o u s ly w a s

s p e a k i n g to h e r - c o n v e r s i n g w i th h e r.

Te l li n g h e r to c h e c k h e r - h e r

m ir r o r s , a n y c a r s t h a t w e r e f o l l o w in g .

As we got closer to the point

w h e r e I n e e d e d t o m e e t C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e I a g a i n t o l d h e r t o c h e c k o n e
la s t ti m e i f s h e s e e s a n y s u s p ic i o u s v e h ic l e s .
S h e t o l d m e t h a t s h e c o u l d n o t s e e a n y v e h ic l e s .
10

A t th a t

s t a g e w h e r e I n e e d e d t o b e t h e r o b o t w a s a c t u a l ly r e d a n d I q u ic k ly
ju m p e d o ff . I t o l d h e r to g o - b e fo r e I ju m p e d o ff C h a i r I t o ld m y w i f e t o
g o s tr a i g h t h o m e a n d w a i t fo r my c a ll . C h a ir w h e n I ju m p e d o u t o f th e
v e h ic l e I r a n i n to a b o o k s h o p a c r o s s t h e R o m a n ’s Pi z z a w h e r e I w a s
g o i n g t o m e e t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e .
T h i s w a s m e r e ly to - o h - o h I a m j u m p in g t h e g u n a b i t . I - I
r a n i n to t h e b o o k s h o p . I p r e t e n d e d t o - t o b e b u y i n g a b o o k . S o I w a s
lo o k in g a t a b o o k b u t w h il e I w a s d o i n g t h a t I w a s ju s t c h e c k i n g t h e e x i t
a n d s e e in g i f a n y b o d y w a s f o l l o w i n g m e .

I w a i t e d i n t h e - i n th e

b o o k s h o p fo r a b o u t p r o b a b ly fi v e m i n u t e s .
20

A ls o n o t t o a r o u s e a n y s u s p ic io n fr o m - fr o m t h e s h o p o w n e r.
I c o u ld n o t b e t h e r e t o o l o n g .
p r o c e e d e d to th e R o m a n ’s P iz z a .

W h e n I f e lt th a t i t w a s a ll c le a r I
I a m n o t s u r e w h o g o t t h e r e f ir s t .

W h e t h e r I w a s th e r e f ir s t o r C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e w a s a lr e a d y th e r e b u t
w h a t I c a n s a y is t h a t I m e t w i t h h i m a n d I e x p l a i n e d to h i m C h a ir
e x a c tl y a l l o f t h e e v e n t s fr o m th e n i g h t o r th e p r e v i o u s - th e p r e v i o u s

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
n i g h t a n d - a n d t h e m o r n in g o f t h e - t h e 2 0 t h . P a r d o n m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: The 21st.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e 2 1 s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B e fo r e - s o r r y.

Al s o

C h a ir, b e fo r e - b e f o r e I c o u ld t e l l h i m a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s h e a s k e d m e i f
I - i f I m i n d e d i f C o l o n e l Vil jo e n j o i n e d u s f o r t h e m e e ti n g a n d I - I t o l d
h i m I d i d n o t m i n d . S o C o l o n e l Vil jo e n a ls o j o i n e d u s f o r th a t m e e t in g .
I …
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s

C o lo n e l Vi lj o e n

th e

one

that

was

with

C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e o r - w h e n t h e y i n te r v i e w e d y o u o n th e 1 8 t h a n d t h e
19th?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Indeed.

That is correct

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e - h e j o in e d u s f o r t h e
m e e ti n g a n d I e x p l a i n e d t o b o t h o f t h e m w h a t e x a c t ly h a d tr a n s p ir e d th e
n i g h t b e f o r e a n d t h e m o r n i n g o f t h e 2 1 s t . C h a i r a t t h a t s ta g e I a m n o t
s u r e i f h e m e n ti o n e d w i tn e s s p r o te c ti o n .
20

By - b y t h is s t a g e - I m u s t

a ls o a d d w h e n I g o t t o th is m e e ti n g C h a ir I w a s p h y s ic a l ly u p s e t .
I t h i n k m y h a n d s w e r e s h a k i n g b y th e ti m e I g o t t o - t o
C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e a ls o - h e c o u ld s e e

t h a t I w a s - I w a s n o t i n - i n a - in a g o o d s p a c e .

Page 27 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A t th a t s t a g e C h a ir I a m

n o t s u r e i f h e m e n t io n e d w i t n e s s p r o te c t io n b u t a f t e r - w e p r o b a b ly
la s t e d a b o u t h a l f a n h o u r C h a ir - t h a t m e e ti n g . H e a s k e d m e i f I c o u l d
m e e t h i m i n Pr e to r i a i n t h e e v e n i n g . I t h i n k I t o l d h i m I a m n o t s u r e b u t
I w il l tr y.
C h a ir I w e n t b a c k h o m e o r r a th e r w h e n t h e m e e t in g w a s o v e r
t h e y l e f t fi r s t a n d I p h o n e d m y w i f e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Before you proceed.

Yo u s a i d y o u w e r e n o t s u r e

w h e t h e r h e m e n t i o n e d w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n a t th a t m e e t in g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t b e c a u s e a lt h o u g h w i t n e s s p r o te c t i o n w a s

d is c u s s e d a t s o m e s t a g e y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e th e r i t w a s d is c u s s e d a t
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t - th a t e v e n i n g C h a i r
I w a s t o g e t h e r w it h my fa m i ly. W e w e r e a c t u a ll y p l a c e d in th e w i tn e s s
p r o t e c t io n b u t l ik e I a m s a y in g I a m n o t s u r e if C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e a t t h a t
m o m e n t o r i n t h a t m e e ti n g o f t h e m o r n i n g o f t h e 2 1 s t m e n t io n e d w it n e s s
p r o t e c t io n t o m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a li g h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t b e c e r ta i n .
C A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u c a l l e d y o u r w i fe a f t e r C o l o n e ls R o e lo fs e
a n d Vi lj o e n h a d l e f t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A f t e r t h e y l e f t I c a ll e d m y w i f e a n d I a s k e d h e r t o c o m e f e tc h m e b u t I

Page 28 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t o l d h e r n o t t o - t o c o m e to - to th e s a m e p l a c e w h e r e s h e d r o p p e d m e
o ff . I t o l d h e r to p a r k a r o u n d th e b l o c k o f w h e r e s h e i n i ti a lly d r o p p e d
m e o ff .

C h a ir w h e n s h e a r r iv e d I - I d i d th e s a m e a s I c a m e t o t h e

m e e ti n g .
I j u m p e d i n to t h e b a c k o f th e c a r a n d h i d m y s e l f b e - b e h i n d
t h e t w o s e a ts a n d w e w e n t s tr a ig h t h o m e .

A ls o C h a i r c o n ti n u o u s ly

s p e a k i n g t o m y w i f e te ll in g h e r to c h e c k h e r w h e r e a b o u t s . S e e i f a n y
v e h ic l e s w e r e f o l l o w in g u s .

C h a ir th e - t h e p e r i o d th a t - a ft e r I g o t

h o m e is a b i t h a z y fo r m e . I a m n o t s u r e - I - I w a s r e a l ly n o t i n a g o o d
10

space after I got home.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
w h il e .

I th in k I la i d d o w n f o r a

Pr o b a b ly h a d a n a p f o r a n h o u r o r tw o .

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.

T h a t is a b i t h a z y f o r m e b u t w h a t I c a n r e c a l l th a t a f t e r n o o n o f t h e 2 1 s t
C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e c o n ta c t e d m e a n d a s k e d m e i f I c o u l d m e e t h i m a t h is
o ffic e r s . T h is - th is i s n o w t h e H a w k ’s O ff i c e s in S i lv e r to n .
C h a ir, I - I t h i n k I t o l d C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e I w ill - I w ill t r y m y
b e s t t o g e t to th a t m e e t in g .
s o m e v i s i t o r s t h a t e v e n in g .
20

C h a i r w e a ls o h a d - w e r e a l s o e x p e c t i n g
S o m y w i f e c o u ld n o t d r i v e m e .

So I

d e c i d e d t o ta k e a c h a n c e a n d d r iv e my s e l f t h e r e . I w a it e d fo r i t to g e t a
b i t d a r k - f o r t h e s u n to s e t .
I put on a cap and I lay a bit low in the car and drove to
Pretoria.

A l s o m y s e l f k e p t c h e c k i n g i f t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y th a t w a s

f o ll o w i n g m e w h il e I w a s d r iv i n g t o P r e to r i a . W h e n I g o t to t h e H a w k ’s
O ff ic e s C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e w a s t h e r e . A ls o p r e s e n t w a s G e n e r a l H a n k e l .

Page 29 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
I th i n k th a t C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e h a d a lr e a d y b r i e f e d C o l o n e l H a n k e l o f m y
s i tu a ti o n a n d t h e i n c i d e n t s t h a t - t h a t h a p p e n e d p r io r - t h e d a y b e f o r e
in t h e m o r n in g o f t h e 2 1 s t .
G e n e r a l H a n k e l s a i d t o m e fr o m w h a t h e h a s h e a r d s o f a r h e
g e n u i n e ly s e e s t h a t t h e r e is a th r e a t o n m y l i fe a n d t h a t I s h o u l d g o in t o
t h e W i tn e s s P r o te c t i o n P r o g r a m .
CHAIRPERSON: That was General Hankel?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
s u b s e q u e n t ly m a d e f o r th e t a s k f o r c e .

Ar r a n g e m e n ts

were

T h e y - t h e y e s c o r te d m e fr o m

t h e H a w k ’s O ff ic e s b a c k t o m y h o u s e i n K e m p t o n P a r k .

C h a ir b u t

b e f o r e - b e f o r e - I a m j u m p in g t h e g u n a b i ts . B e f o r e w e l e f t I p h o n e d
m y w if e a n d t o l d th a t s h e n e e d s t o p o l i te ly g e t r i d o f t h e v is i to r s t h a t
we had …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And that she needs to

pack a bag for each one of us - an overnight bag and she needed to do
t h a t v e r y, v e r y q u i c k l y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I w a s e s c o r t e d v i a

t h e ta s k te a m b a c k to m y h o u s e . I a m n o t s u r e a t t h a t s t a g e - I c a n n o t
r e c a l l w h o - w h o b r o u g h t m y c a r - m y w i f e ’s c a r b a c k . I t h in k i t w a s o n e
of the task …
CHAIRPERSON: Has you used your …?

Page 30 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

One of the members of

the task.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d y o u u s e d y o u r w i f e ’s c a r t o g o t o th e H a w k ’s

O ff ic e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A t th a t s ta g e i t w a s

p r o b a b ly o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e ta s k t e a m t h a t e s c o r te d o r r a th e r
d r o v e m y w i f e ’s c a r b a c k t o m y h o u s e b u t I my s e l f w a s e s c o r t e d b y a
10

t e a m fr o m th e t a s k te a m - t a s k t e a m . I th i n k i t w a s f o u r o f fi v e o f t h e m .
W h e n w e g o t t h e r e m y w i fe w a s v e r y - s h e h a d a lr e a d y p a c k e d b a g s f o r
each one of us.
M y w i f e ’s s is t e r w h o l iv e s n o t f a r fr o m u s C h a ir - li k e I
t e s ti fi e d to o n Fr i d a y t h i s is t h e s a m e r e s id e n c e t h a t w a s b r o k e n i n t o .
S h e c a m e to - t o b a s ic a l ly j u s t - w e b a s ic a l ly j u s t h a n d o v e r e v e r y t h in g
t o m y w i fe ’s s is t e r.

The keys of the house and our - some of our

p e r s o n a l t h i n g s . T h is a l s o m i g h t b e q u i t e h a z y fo r m e .
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a l l th e d e t a i l b u t i n e s s e n c e th is i s w h a t
happened.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

We were taken back -

t h is is m y f a m ily. M y s e l f , m y w if e a n d m y t w o k i d s . W e w e r e e s c o r te d
b a c k t o t h e H a w k ’s O ffic e s i n S ilv e r t o n . T h is w a s p r o b a b l y a r o u n d n in e
- 9 o ’ c l o c k i n t h e e v e n i n g C h a ir. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: When - when you went back to the …

Page 31 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W e n t b a c k - w e w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a w k ’s O ff ic e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th a t is i n d e e d c o r r e c t

C h a ir. W e - w e w e r e ta k e n b a c k t o th e H a w k ’s O ffi c e s . O u r c e l lp h o n e s
- a ll o u r c o m m u n ic a t i o n w a s t a k e n a w a y f r o m u s . T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t
w e - I r e ta in e d w a s a l a p t o p .

W e w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly h a n d e d o v e r t o

m e m b e r s o f t h e w i t n e s s p r o te c ti o n a n d I w a s t e m p o r a r y tr a n s f e r r e d
fr o m C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e i n to t h e W it n e s s P r o t e c ti o n P r o g r a m t h a t w a s
2 1 O c to b e r 2 0 11 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d th a t is a s f a r a s I

can take it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R e g a r d i n g t h i s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h a t h a p p e n e d th a t S u n d a y

2 3 O c to b e r 2 0 11 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir b y t h is s t a g e I w a s
- w e ll m y fa m i ly a n d I w e r e a lr e a d y p la c e d i n to t h e W i tn e s s Pr o te c ti o n
20

P r o g r a m . I g e n e r a lly b u y t h e n e w s p a p e r o n a S u n d a y. S o I a s k e d o n e
o f m y p r o t e c to r s t o g e t t h e n e w s p a p e r f o r m e . I t w a s a S u n d a y Ti m e s .
T h i s is n o w 2 3 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O n t h e fr o n t p a g e o f t h e

S u n d a y Ti m e s w a s a n a r ti c l e r e g a r d i n g G e n e r a l D r a m a t.

Page 32 of 156

It was

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
s o m e t h i n g t o d o w i t h r e n d i ti o n s . I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e - t h e e x a c t c o n t e n t
o f t h e a r t ic l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
w a s b a s ic a l ly w h a t it w a s .

B u t t h a t is w h a t - t h a t

It was - it was regarding General Dramat

a n d r e n d i ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t d i d y o u th i n k w h e n y o u r e a d t h a t

a r ti c l e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

all

of

the

s t a n d - a lo n e in c i d e n ts th a t I s p o k e o f t h e p r e v i o u s a s - a s p e r m y
t e s ti m o n y p r e v i o u s ly a s s p i n n i n g a s t o r y a n d t h e i n c id e n t th a t h a p p e n e d
a t th e H o l id a y I n n w h e n w e - w h e n F M 0 9 t o l d m e t o s t a y a w a y f r o m
G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S ib iy a .

S o t h is a r ti c l e - w h e n I r e a d t h e

a r ti c l e i t m a d e s e n s e to m e a n d s o l i d i fi e d m y b e l ie f t h a t j o u r n a lis ts
w e r e b e in g u s e d b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e t o p l a n t s t o r ie s in th e m e d i a
b e c a u s e C h a ir a ll o f t h e s e t h in g s h a p p e n e d w i th in a fe w d a y s .
T h e - t h e f ir s t i n c id e n ts o f s p i n n i n g a s t o r y c a m e a t
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e fr o m F M 0 9 . T h a t w a s o n t h e 2 0 t h a n d t h e s a m e
20

evening

he

spoke

of

s t a y in g

away

from

General Dramat

and

G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d o n t h e 2 1 s t - t h e 2 3 r d w h ic h w a s S u n d a y th e 2 3 r d . I t
w a s j u s t a m a t t e r o f a fe w d a y s C h a i r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W h ic h

l ik e

I

said

I

s tr o n g ly b e l ie v e d t h a t t h is a r t ic l e w a s p l a n t e d i n t h e p a p e r u s in g

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
jo u r n a li s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Colonel Naidoo are you aware of any other

in s t a n c e s w h e r e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a v e u s e d j o u r n a l is ts to fu r t h e r
t h e ir a g e n d a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

I - I have

k n o w l e d g e o f t h r e e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e j o u r n a lis ts w e r e e it h e r p a i d o r u s e d
b y C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
2 0 0 9 /2 0 1 0 .
10

O n e i s - C h a ir t h is w a s e a r ly o r r a t h e r l a t e

I cannot be sure.

G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o l d m e th a t h e i s

m e e ti n g w i th t h e jo u r n a l is ts .
B a s ic a l ly th e e s s e n c e o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I h a d w a s t h is
jo u r n a li s t h a d in f o r m a t io n o n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
d e tr i m e n ta l h a d i t b e e n p u b li s h e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

He needed - I think it

w a s 2 0 o r R 2 5 0 0 0 ,0 0 . I t w a s - b a s i c a ll y h e h a d t o p a y t h i s j o u r n a lis t
o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

H e d i d n o t g iv e m e t h e

n a m e o f t h e j o u r n a l is t n o r t h e - t h e p u b li c a t io n t h a t t h e j o u r n a l is t
w o r k e d fo r. I e v e n t u a ll y g o t to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . I e x p la i n e d t o h i m th e
c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d t h a t h e n e e d e d t h e
c a s h . I f il le d in a n a d v a n c e f o r m f o r t h e a m o u n t o f - i t w a s e i t h e r 2 0 o r
25 000.
I cannot be sure.

When I got to General Lazarus for his

Page 34 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
s ig n a tu r e f o r a p p r o v a l h e s a i d t h a t I s h o u l d n o t ta k e t h e a d v a n c e . I d o
n o t k n o w w h a t w a s h is r e a s o n . H e d id n o t g iv e m e a n y r e a s o n s b u t h e
ju s t s a id t h a t I s h o u l d n o t t a k e t h e a d v a n c e o n my n a m e . F M 0 8 w a s a t
h is o ffi c e a t th a t m o m e n t.
H e a s k e d - t h is is n o w G e n e r a l L a z a r u s - a s k e d F M 0 8 t o t a k e
t h e a d v a n c e o n - o n h is n a m e w h ic h h e d i d . H e s u b s e q u e n tly s e c u r e d
t h e c a s h a n d g a v e i t - h a n d e d i t o v e r to m e th e c a s h a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly
handed it over to General Mdluli. I am not sure where he was. He was
e i t h e r a t h is o ffi c e o r I m e t h i m a t O R Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t .
I c a n n o t b e s u r e b u t I d i d - w h a t I a m s u r e i s t h a t I d id

10

e v e n t u a l ly h a n d e d h i m - h a n d e d G e n e r a l M d l u l i th e - th e c a s h th a t I h a d
r e c e i v e d fr o m F M 0 8 .

C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e h o w th is - th is p a r t ic u l a r

a d v a n c e w a s r e c o n c il e d a n d I d i d n o t h e a r o f - o f t h i s i n c i d e n t a g a i n
n e i th e r fr o m F M 0 8 o r G e n e r a l M d lu li . T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t i n s t a n c e .
T h e s e c o n d i n s ta n c e i s I w a s i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffi c e .

I

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e ti m e p e r i o d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t w o u ld h a v e s ti ll b e e n a r o u n d
t h e e n d o f 2 0 11 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir, I - I c a n n o t b e - I

cannot be …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t b e c e r t a i n C h a i r
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 35 of 156

And I do not want to

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
s p e c u l a te a s w e l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus was in

h is o ffi c e . F M 0 9 w a s a l s o p r e s e n t . T h e y w e r e h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a ti o n .
I a m n o t s u r e w h a t it w a s a b o u t b u t th e y s e e m e d t o b e u n s e t tl e d . F M 0 9
t h e n s a i d t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n m y p r e s e n c e w h il e I w a s th e r e - t h i s i s
n o w G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffic e C h a ir.
H e s a i d t h a t M a r s h a l l is w a i t in g o r r a th e r M a r s h a ll n e e d s a n
a n s w e r a s a j o u r n a lis t i s w a it i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: And who
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o w h a t I - I w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s M a r s h a l l?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir p r e v io u s ly F M -

F M 0 9 h a d t o l d m e t h a t M a r s h a ll is a c tu a ll y e x C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e H e a d
General Mulangi Mphego.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e s a i d t h a t M a r s h a ll i s

w a i ti n g o r r a th e r M a r s h a l l i s - t h i s i s n o t t h e e x a c t w o r d s C h a ir f r o m fr o m …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
c o n v e r s a ti o n

was

that

Marshall

needs

But the essence of that
an

answer

because

the

jo u r n a li s ts a r e w a i ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O r jo u r n a l is t is w a i ti n g .

Page 36 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That is what I picked up

fr o m t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s a id p a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That was the second

in s t a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you get to know how much was to be paid …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
10

CHAIRPERSON: On that occasion?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. Th e r e w a s n o
- t h e r e w a s n o fi g u r e m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e ju s t s a i d p a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r t h e t h ir d i n s t a n c e

o f - o f j o u r n a l is ts e i t h e r b e i n g p a i d o r h a v i n g s o m e c o n n e c ti o n w it h
C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e I k n o w o f a fe m a l e j o u r n a lis t b y t h e n a m e o f
R a n je n i M u n u s a m y.
20

S h e is - I t h i n k s h e is a c u r r e n t S u n d a y Ti m e s

jo u r n a li s t.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i f - th is - i n t h i s

in s t a n c e I h a v e m o r e d e ta il b e c a u s e I w a s p e r s o n a lly i n v o lv e d . I f I c a n
ju s t h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A

few

m o m e n ts

to

explain.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir d u r i n g 2 0 0 8 I w a s

c a l l e d b y A s s is t a n t C o m m i s s io n e r M p h e g o .

C h a ir I a m j u s t u s i n g th e

r a n k s t h a t th e y u s e d a t t h a t s t a g e . T h is w a s 2 0 0 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w a s c a l l e d b y As s is t a n t
C o m m i s s i o n e r M p h e g o to h i s o ff ic e . T h is i s - a n d I m u s t m a k e m e n ti o n
10

at

that

stage

C o m m is s i o n e r M p h e g o

was

the

Head

of

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e . H e w a s t h e D i v is i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e c a ll e d m e t o h i s

o ffic e . H e s a i d h e h a s th is c o n t a c t . H e r n a m e is J e n n y. H e g a v e m e
h e r c e ll p h o n e n u m b e r a n d t h a t s h e is h a v i n g p r o b l e ms w i t h h e r v e h ic l e
a n d t h a t I m u s t m a k e c o n t a c t w i t h h e r a n d s e e h o w w e c a n h e l p h e r.
C h a ir

I

left

-

I

le f t

h is

o ffi c e

and

I

s u b s e q u e n tl y

went

to

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ff ic e a n d I e x p la i n e d t o h i m th a t w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d
of me.
20

A t t h a t s t a g e I a m n o t s u r e w h o t h is p e r s o n w a s .
m e e t h e r p r e v io u s ly.
m e n ti o n e d a s J e n n y.

I do not know who she was.

I did not

S h e w a s ju s t

A t th a t s ta g e I c a n n o t r e c a l l i f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

e x p l a i n e d t o m e w h o t h is p e r s o n w a s b u t I c a n c o n fir m t h a t it w a s
in d e e d R a n j e n i M u n u s a m y t h a t I m e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair I met her on three

o c c a s i o n s - p r o b a b ly tw o o r t h r e e o c c a s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t a f t e r - t h e f ir s t m e e t in g y o u h a d w i th h e r

w a s i t a f te r y o u h a d c a ll e d h e r o n th e n u m b e r t h a t M r M p h e g o h a d
g iv e n to y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I - I c o n ta c t e d h e r
t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o m e e t w i th h e r t o c o ll e c t a v e h ic le s o th a t w e
c a n h a v e i t r e p a ir e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I ju s t w a n t t o c o n fir m w h e th e r …
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : U s e d t h e n u m b e r t h a t M r M p h e g o h a d g iv e n t o y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I am not sure when

m a k i n g t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s t o p ic k u p h e r v e h ic le .

I am not sure if I

in tr o d u c e d my s e l f t o h e r o r n o t o r w h e n I m e t h e r fir s t a n d e x p la i n e d t o
h e r w h o I w a s b u t s u b s e q u e n tl y o r - o r r a t h e r b e f o r e - b e f o r e c o n t a c ti n g
20

h e r I a s k e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h o w w e g o in g to f ix th is v e h ic le .
W h o a r e w e g o in g - w h o a r e w e g o i n g t o s e n d it t o . H e t o l d
m e t h a t I s h o u ld p ic k u p t h e v e h ic le f r o m t h i s i n d iv i d u a l a n d t a k e i t t o
N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .

C h a ir N e w W o r ld M o t o r s is a s u p p l ie r o r s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r t o C o m p a n y X r e g a r d i n g - th e y d o r e p a ir s to v e h ic le s ,
s e r v ic in g e tc e t e r a , t y r e s a n d a ll o f t h a t s tu ff .

Page 39 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ve h ic l e r e la t e d m a tt e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u r e f e r t o C o m p a n y X a r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o t h e
s a m e c o m p a n y to w h ic h C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e a ls o r e fe r r e d a s C o m p a n y X ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th a t is i n d e e d c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t l e t u s ju s t g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t .

Yo u h a d a

d is c u s s io n w i th M r M p h e g o a n d h e to l d y o u a b o u t t h i s p e r s o n t h a t h e
s a i d h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h h e r c a r b u t y o u s a y th e n t h e r e a f t e r y o u w e n t t o
10

General Lazarus.

D id y o u f in d t h a t G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s

a w a r e o f t h e is s u e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I cannot - I am not too

sure …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t s a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t h e w a s n o t - h e w a s
n o t s u r p r is e d t h a t I m e n ti o n e d t h is i n d iv i d u a l . L ik e I s a id a t t h a t s t a g e
I a m n o t s u r e i f h e - h e m e n t io n e d o r - o r t o ld m e w h o s h e w a s . I a m
not sure …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t h e w a s n o t s u r p r i s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t c l e a r fr o m w h a t M r M p h e g o t o l d y o u w h a t y o u
w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o ? W h a t h e e x p e c t e d y o u t o d o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir h e d id n o t g iv e m e
a s p e c i fi c i n s tr u c ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But he said this person

w a s h a v i n g p r o b le m s w i th h e r v e h ic l e a n d t h a t I m u s t m a k e c o n t a c t w it h
h e r a n d s e e h o w w e c a n h e lp h e r o r s o r t o u t t h e p r o b l e m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is is n o w n o t t h e

c o n v e r s a ti o n I h a d w i t h h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But that is what I can

r e c a l l C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e s s e n c e o f it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d - w o u ld t h a t k i n d o f r e q u e s t i n t h e v e r y t e r m s
in w h ic h i t w a s b e - w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n n o r m a l t o r e c e iv e t h a t k in d o f
r e q u e s t i n t h o s e k in d s o f v a g u e t e r m s f r o m p e o p l e h ig h u p i n t h e - i n
C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ? I a m a s k i n g t h a t b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t s e e m t o h a v e
a s k e d w h o is t h i s p e r s o n .

W h y s h o u l d w e h e lp h e r o r a n y t h i n g l ik e

that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a l s o y o u r e m e m b e r
t h e e n v ir o n m e n t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i t i s n o t y o u r n o r m a l e n v ir o n m e n t ,
20

n o r m a l p o li c e s y s t e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So it was not anything

o u t o f t h e o r d in a r y f o r m e a t t h a t s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. Ye s , o k a y a n d t h e n y o u w e n t to G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s b u t h e s e e m e d to – d i d h e g iv e y o u m o r e d e t a i ls o f w h a t y o u

Page 41 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Not General Lazarus as

such.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Because

h e d id

not,

C o m m i s s i o n e r M p e g o a ls o w a s v e r y v a g u e a t t h a t s t a g e , s h e d i d n o t
g iv e m e a n y s p e c if ic , w h a t s p e c if ic a l ly t h a t I h a d t o b u t e x c e p t t o –
t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w it h th e v e h ic l e a n d w e n e e d e d t o a t t e n d t o
it .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

And what happened after your

d is c u s s io n w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

He told

me

that we

s h o u l d , o r r a t h e r I s h o u l d t a k e t h e v e h ic l e to N e w W o r l d M o t o r s li k e I
e x p l a i n e d i t N e w W o r ld M o t o r s d o e s s e r v ic i n g o f r e p a ir s , v e h i c l e
r e l a t e d m a t t e r s , i t is a s u p p li e r t o C o m p a n y X , o r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r to
Company X.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I e v e n tu a lly m e t w i th –

C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e h o w y o u p r o n o u n c e h e r n a m e , h e r s u r n a m e i t i s
20

M o o n s a my o r M u n u s a m y I a m n o t t o o s u r e b u t i t i s s o m e th i n g t o t h a t
e ffe c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I m e t h e r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e

same

person

that

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

Page 42 of 156

Mr

Mpego

had

asked

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair I met her at – we

m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts to m e e t a t a n E n g e n G a r a g e , I a m n o t g o i n g t o s a y
w h e r e b e c a u s e i t i s v e r y c lo s e t o o u r h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I m e t M u n u s a m y o n t h r e e
o c c a s i o n s , t w o o r th r e e o c c a s io n s , I w o u l d p h o n e h e r, w e l l o k a y I a m
ju m p i n g t h e g u n a b i t C h a ir, le t m e j u s t s a y h o w w e m e t t h e fir s t t i m e . I
10

m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts , I c o n ta c t e d h e r, I m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o m e e t h e r.
W e m e t a t a n E n g e n G a r a g e , w h ic h i s n o t fa r fr o m o u r h o u s e .

I t is

e i t h e r I e x p l a i n e d t o h e r w h o I w a s o v e r t h e p h o n e , o r w h e n I m e t h e r,
that was – that would have been obvious because she would not have
g iv e n m e h e r c a r, s o s h e k n e w w h o I w a s a t t h a t s t a g e w h e n I m e t h e r,
p h y s i c a ll y m e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r th is – o r t h is w a s
in 2 0 0 8 y o u s a id ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : P r o b a b ly 2 0 0 8 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Pr o b a b ly th e r e a b o u t.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m o n t h a n d s o o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i f th e d o c u m e n t s

a r e s h o w n t o m e , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n i n v o ic e p u t i n f o r th is c a r fo r
p a y m e n t I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y a l r i g h t , y e s c o n ti n u e . A n d w h a t w a s

Page 43 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t h e d i s c u s s io n y o u h a d w it h h e r o n t h e fir s t o c c a s i o n th a t y o u m e t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair if I can remember

c o r r e c t ly t h e r e w a s n ’ t m u c h t a lk , I i n tr o d u c e d m y s e lf a n d I t o l d h e r th a t
I w a s s e n t b y C o m m i s s io n M p e g o a n d t h a t w e n e e d e d t o s o r t t h is c a r
o u t . S h e h a n d e d o v e r th e k e y s a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly to o k th e c a r t o N e w
W o r l d M o to r s . C h a i r l ik e I s a i d I m e t th is i n d iv id u a l o n th r e e o c c a s io n s .
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e l o g is t ic s o f g e t t in g t h e r e a n d a ll o f t h a t , i t is n o t
very clear how I got there and how she got to where she needed to be
b u t w h a t I c a n c o n fir m is t h a t I d i d t a k e t h e v e h ic l e fr o m h e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u t o o k h e r v e h i c l e a n d y o u t o o k it t o – d i d y o u
s a y N e w W o r l d M o to r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir o n

t h e in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d i d s h e g o w it h y o u in th e c a r w h e n y o u to o k
the car to New World Motors?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir, n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I to o k t h e c a r o ff h e r
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J a , d o y o u k n o w h o w s h e w a s g o i n g t o t r a v e l fr o m

t h e r e , fr o m w h e r e y o u m e t to – b a c k t o w h a te v e r s h e w a n te d to g o , w a s
t h e r e s o m e b o d y e ls e i n a n o t h e r c a r o r w h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir li k e I s a i d I a m n o t
s u r e a b o u t th e l o g is ti c s o f th e w h o l e t h i n g . I t is n o t v e r y c l e a r t o m e , I
c a n n o t r e c a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t y o u t o o k h e r c a r to N e w W o r l d M o to r s ?

Page 44 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s th e i d e a th a t w h a te v e r w a s w r o n g w i t h i t w a s
g o i n g t o b e fix e d a t N e w W o r l d M o t o r s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u g e t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s w r o n g w i t h th e

car?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e , I a m
n o t to o s u r e b u t w h a t I c a n c o n f ir m i s t h a t t h e ty r e s o n t h a t s p e c if ic
v e h ic l e w a s r e p l a c e d w it h n e w ty r e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w a s s e r v ic e d , I t h i n k

t h e r a d io w a s f a u l t y, I a m n o t s u r e i f i t w a s f ix e d o r r e p l a c e d a n d a ls o I
t h i n k th e s e a t , o n e o f t h e s e a ts in t h e c a r n e e d e d s o m e a tt e n ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t w h a t I c a n c o n f ir m i s
a l l o f th is – o k a y I a m ju m p i n g t h e g u n a g a in a b i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u b r o u g h t th e c a r to N e w W o r ld M o t o r s th e

in f o r m a ti o n y o u g a v e t h e m w a s i t o n t h e b a s is t h a t y o u w o u ld b e t h e
o n e w h o w o u l d p ic k i t u p o n c e it – t h e y h a d r e p a ir e d i t , o r w e r e t h e
20

a r r a n g e m e n ts s u c h t h a t s h e c o u ld c o m e a n d p ic k i t u p o n c e i t w a s
ready?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o , n o C h a ir I w o u l d p ic k
u p t h e v e h ic le o n c e it w a s r e a d y a n d t a k e i t b a c k t o h e r – t o M s
M u n u s a my.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t y o u g a v e t h e m a b o u t t h e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
v e h ic l e d i d i t i n c l u d e a n y t h i n g t o s a y t h e v e h ic le w a s h e r s , g iv i n g t h e m
h e r n a m e o r w a s i t b r o u g h t th e r e o n th e b a s is t h a t i t w a s a c a r fr o m
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o ,

n o n e o f h e r i n f o r m a t i o n w a s g iv e n t o th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b y m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In c l u d i n g h e r n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s s i m p ly w r i t t e n o n t h e b a s is o f y o u r n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s . C o n t i n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a id o o w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e

ty r e s w e r e r e p l a c e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h i s w a s a c t u a lly C h a i r

if I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly o b v i o u s l y I w o u l d h a v e t o t e l l t h e s e r v i c e
p r o v i d e r, N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , w h a t r e p a ir s n e e d e d t o b e c a r r ie d o u t, h e
n e e d e d t o k n o w, s o I a m n o t s u r e i t w o u l d h a v e p r o b a b ly c o m e fr o m M s
M u n u s a my, I c a n n o t r e c a l l, b u t t h e r e h a d t o b e s o m e i n s tr u c t io n a s to
w h a t n e e d e d to b e d o n e o n t h e v e h ic l e , I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t p a r t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w o u l d . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t w h a t I c a n s a y is li k e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ta k e i t t h a t w h a te v e r y o u t o ld t h e m w o u ld h a v e b e e n
w r i t t e n d o w n o n t h e ir r e c o r d s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 46 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h e v e h ic l e , I t h i n k
it w a s o n e o r t w o w e e k s a n d t h e v e h ic le w a s r e p a ir e d , p r o b a b ly a f t e r a
w e e k I g o t a c a ll fr o m th e o w n e r o f N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , M r J o e M a r k s ,
h e t o l d m e t h e v e h i c l e i s r e a d y a n d th a t I s h o u l d f e tc h i t . I t o o k i t b a c k
t o M s M u n u s a my a n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l w h e n y o u b r o u g h t th e v e h ic le t o N e w W o r ld

M o t o r s w h a t d i d y o u t e l l N e w W o r l d M o t o r s a s to w h o w o u l d b e
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e p a y m e n t fo r t h e r e p a ir o f t h e m o t o r v e h i c l e ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th e r e w a s n o n e o f

t h a t d is c u s s i o n t h a t t o o k p la c e , N e w W o r l d M o t o r s w a s a s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r o r s u p p l i e r t o C o m p a n y X , s o . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w o u l d t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e tw e e n y o u a n d N e w

W o r l d M o to r s w h e n y o u b r o u g h t th e v e h i c le w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n t h a t
they would invoice Company X?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t i n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I s u b s e q u e n tl y

p ic k e d u p t h e v e h ic le a n d h a n d e d i t b a c k t o M s M u n u s a m y, i t w a s
20

p r o b a b ly a w e e k o r t w o l a t e r t h a t I g o t a c a l l fr o m C o m m i s s io n e r
M p e g o , h e e n q u ir e d fr o m m e a s t o w h y w e d id n o t r u n f l a t ty r e s o n t h a t
s p e c i f ic v e h ic l e , r e f e r r in g to M s M u n u s a m y ’s v e h ic l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ty r e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R u n fl a t ty r e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.

Page 47 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I p ic k e d u p t h e v e h ic l e ,

m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts a g a i n t o p ic k u p t h e v e h ic l e f r o m M s M u n u s a m y,
t o o k i t b a c k t o N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , I h a d t h o s e s p e c if ic ty r e s fi t t e d o n
a n d to o k i t b a c k t o h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: So that was the same day thing?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e , I a m
n o t s u r e i f i t w a s d o n e o n t h e s a m e d a y, it is p r o b a b l y a d a y o r t w o , I
c a n n o t r e c a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B u t w h a t I c a n c o n f ir m

w a s t h e ty r e s w e r e r e p l a c e d , w i t h th o s e s p e c i f ic . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember what type of car it was?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i t w a s a s il v e r

B M W c o n v e r ti b l e , I a m n o t s u r e , y e s i t w a s a s i lv e r B M W.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o n v e r t ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

Ye s c o n ti n u e – s o y o u t o o k i t b a c k t o h e r

s o th a t w a s y o u r t h ir d m e e ti n g w it h h e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S e c o n d m e e t in g C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w a s n ’ t t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g w h e n y o u t o o k i t b a c k
f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O h , y e s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e n y o u t o o k i t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
correct.

Page 48 of 156

Oh yes, yes, you are

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s t h e t h i r d m e e ti n g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Was there any discussion of any consequence

b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d h e r w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d th e c a r f o r t h e fir s t ti m e
a n d w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d th e c a r fo r t h e s e c o n d t i m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o
in s o f a r a s a n y p a y m e n t f o r t h e c a r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t e v e r t h a t y o u – w a s r e a l ly o f i m p o r ta n c e t h a t

could be important that you can tell us?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t th a t I c a n r e c a l l

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t h a n d i n g o v e r t h e c a r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t i n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L ik e I s a i d I a m n o t s u r e
if I m e t h e r tw o o r t h r e e t i m e s i n t h is m a n n e r b u t w h a t I c a n r e c a l l t h i s
w i ll b e n o w e it h e r t h e th ir d o r t h e f o u r th t e r m , I m e t h e r a t h e r h o u s e
C h a ir, I r e m e m b e r th is c l e a r ly b e c a u s e i t w a s a S u n d a y. C o m m i s s i o n e r
M p e g o c a l l e d m e a n d h e s a i d t h a t t h i s – w e l l h e m e n t io n e d h e r b y – n o t
20

b y n a m e b u t h e s a i d th is c o n ta c t h a d a p r o b le m w i t h h e r v e h ic l e i t
w a s n ’ t s ta r t i n g , s o I h a d t o g o t o h e r h o u s e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, th is is n o w a d i ff e r e n t o c c a s i o n fr o m t h e

t h r e e m e e ti n g s th a t y o u h a v e t o l d u s o r is i t o n e o f t h e t h r e e m e e ti n g s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
m e e ti n g C h a ir.

Page 49 of 156

This

is

a

d i ff e r e n t

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a f t e r w h ic h c a m e a f te r t h e f ir s t th r e e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e le t u s t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t n o w a n d
t h e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k y o u c a n th e n c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l is t h a t a lr ig h t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , th a t i s g o o d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t , w e w il l t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t , i t is q u a r te r
p a s t e le v e n , w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e l e v e n .
10

We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e M s W e n tz e l a n d C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo can you hear us?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th th e

t h ir d o c c a s io n th a t y o u w e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e f o u r th o c c a s i o n .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h e f o u r th o c c a s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t I t h i n k t h e t h ir d o c c a s i o n t h a t y o u w e n t t o
c o l l e c t Ms M o n ts a m e ’s c a r fr o m h e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

L ik e I m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r

t h is n o w is e i th e r t h e t h ir d o r th e fo u r t h o c c a s io n .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t I f e t c h e d th e c a r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h is w a s o n a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e i t is t h e f o u r t h o c c a s i o n y o u m e t w i t h M s
M o n ts a m e b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w o u ld th e t h ir d o r w h a t e v e r
o c c a s i o n y o u f e tc h e d t h e c a r b u t a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e it
c e r t a i n l y w o u l d b e th e f o u r t h o c c a s io n o n w h ic h y o u m e t h e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t . J u s t r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r y a g a i n h o w d id
t h is c o m e a b o u t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir th is w a s o n a

S u n d a y C o m m i s s i o n e r M p h e g o p h o n e d m e h e s a id t h e c o n t a c t r e f e r r in g
to then the – I cannot recall the exact conversation but in essence it
w a s th e c a r w a s n o t s t a r t in g a n d h e a s k e d m e t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts to
g e t i t s o r te d o u t .

I c o n t a c te d Mr J o e M a r k s o f N e w W o r l d M o t o r s t h e

s u p p li e r t o C o m p a n y X . W e g o t t h e v e h ic le t o w e d – w e ll h e t o w e d t h e
v e h ic l e b a c k to h i s w o r k s h o p a n d I a m n o t s u r e e x a c tl y w h a t w a s w r o n g
w i t h t h e v e h ic l e C h a ir b u t it w a s n o t s t a r ti n g .
20

Th a t w a s th e w h o l e

p u r p o s e o f – o f g e t t in g i t t o w e d a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a r e y o u a b l e t o r e c a ll h o w f a r a p a r t th e s e
in c i d e n ts w e r e th a t la s t t i m e y o u t o o k th e c a r t o M s M o n ts a m e a ft e r t h e
is s u e o f fl a t ty r e s a n d t h i s o c c a s io n w h e n y o u m e t h e r f o r t h e f o u r th
ti m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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C h a ir t h e f ir s t t w o o r

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t h r e e o c c a s i o n s a s I m e n t io n e d w a s p r o b a b ly w i th i n a p e r i o d o f a f e w
weeks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th e l a s t – t h e la s t

o c c a s i o n w h e n I s a y th e l a s t – th e f o u r t h – th e t h ir d o r f o u r th o n e w a s
p r o b a b ly a w e e k o r a f e w w e e k s la t e r. I c a n n o t r e a ll y r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t . As – ja o k a y a lr ig h t . C o n ti n u e . S o y o u
w e n t to t h e h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

T h is w a s o n – th is w a s

t h e o n ly o c c a s i o n t h a t I h a v e b e e n to h e r h o u s e C h a ir. L ik e I s a i d th e
p r e v i o u s o c c a s i o n s I w o u l d m e e t h e r a t a g a r a g e n e a r h e r h o u s e . T h is
w a s o n o n e o c c a s i o n a n d t h e la s t o n e t h a t I w e n t t o h e r h o u s e .
v e h ic l e w a s e v e n tu a l ly t o w e d a w a y.

Her

L ik e I s a i d I a m n o t s u r e e x a c tl y

w h a t w a s w r o n g b u t i t w a s e v e n t u a l ly fi x e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u fi n d h e r i n t h e h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I r e m e m b e r g o i n g i n s i d e
h e r h o u s e I t h i n k to f e tc h t h e k e y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s s o t h e c a r w a s – y o u m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r
t h e c a r t o b e to w e d t o N o w e ll s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P a r d o n m e C h a ir I d id

n o t h e a r t h e la s t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you make arrangements for the car – for her car
t o b e t a k e n to o r to w e d t o N o w e l ls ?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N e w W o r l d M o t o r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N e w W o r ld – o h N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N e w W o r l d M o t o r s y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u – t h a t – y o u m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r i t to b e
towed to New World Motors?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r th a t w a s w h e n I

r e tu r n e d a v e h ic le a ft e r i t h a d b e e n r e p a ir e d o r f ix e d t h a t w a s t h e l a s t
ti m e I m e t M s M o n ts a m e w e ll a t l e a s t a s f a r a s t h e c a r g o e s . I m e t h e r
o n c e s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t w h ic h I w i ll e x p la in l a t e r. B u t c o m i n g b a c k to
t h e v e h ic l e i ts e l f C h a ir t h e a m o u n t o f R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w a s p a id f r o m t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t f o r th e r e p a ir s t o t h i s v e h ic l e . In i ti a l ly I w a s
going to put in a claim for – for the repairs and General Lazarus said
t h a t I s h o u ld n o t .

I n s te a d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d p u t i n a c l a i m .

T h is w a s

n o w f o r a ll o f t h e – a l l o f th e – f o r t h e ty r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r a ll th e w o r k d o n e b y …
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A ll th e w o r k i n c l u d i n g t h e
r u n f la t ty r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : T h e in i ti a l r e p a ir s t h a t i s
in d e e d c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e v e h ic le – th e –

p a r d o n m e . Th e c l a i m w a s p u t in b y C o l o n e l B a r n a r d . I – f r o m w h a t I
c a n r e c a ll i t w a s R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 b u t I c a n c o n fir m w h e n I s e e t h e – o r i f I
am shown the documents.
CHAIRPERSON:

S u c h a c la i m w o u l d h a v e b e e n p u t i n b y C o l o n e l

Barnard on – on what basis?

W h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w r i t te n i n th e

c la i m t o l e g i ti m i s e it o r t o m a k e i t l o o k l ik e i t w a s l e g i ti m a t e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir l ik e I s a i d t h is i s

n o t y o u r n o r m a l p o l ic e s y s t e m i t is v e r y b r o a d . I t w o u l d h a v e – i t – th is
10

w a s a p r iv a t e v e h i c l e s o i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p o s te d a g a i n s t a n y
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e v e h ic le S R v e h ic l e i f y o u c a n c a l l i t . I t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n p r o b a b ly m o ti v a t io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r o b a b ly f o r a c o n t a c t
p e r s o n o r s o m e t h i n g t o th a t – t o t h a t e x t e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see the actual claim?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c a n n o t r e c a ll C h a ir I

c a n n o t r e c a l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Whether you saw it?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – y o u n o t s u r e w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w r i t te n
20

o n t h e c l a i m d o c u m e n ts ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . B u t y o u s a y t h e a m o u n t w a s a s f a r a s
you can recall around R40 000.00?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I r e m e m b e r t h e a m o u n t I
t h i n k b e c a u s e l ik e I – li k e I m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r I w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s
p u t t in g t h e c l a i m in i n i ti a lly. S o I w o u ld h a v e s e e n t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d
s u b s e q u e n t ly C o lo n e l B a r n a r d p u t in a c l a i m . S o I p r o b a b ly w o u ld h a v e
seen the documents.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e r e a n y p a r tic u l a r r e a s o n w h y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
s a i d y o u s h o u l d n o t b e t h e o n e p u tt i n g in t h e c l a i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

H e d id n o t s a y C h a ir.

H e d i d n o t s a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you Colonel Naidoo.

C o lo n e l N a id o o

a ft e r y o u w e r e p la c e d i n w i t n e s s p r o te c ti o n d i d y o u p r o v id e t h e H a w k s
w i t h a n y a ffi d a v i t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is i n d e e d c o r r e c t .

O n th e 2 5 O c to b e r 2 0 11 I d e p o s e d to a n a ffi d a v it t o C o l o n e l L ie u te n a n t
C o l o n e l P ie t Vi lj o e n f r o m t h e H a w k s . Th a t w a s m y fir s t a ff id a v i t – o n e
o f m a n y.

I t h i n k i n t o t a l I d e p o s e d t o e le v e n – e l e v e n in a l l o v e r a

p e r i o d o f ti m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

And if you have regard to Annexure DGN13

t h e r e is a n a ffi d a v i t a t p a g e 1 2 4 w h ic h r u n s t o 1 4 0 . I s t h a t t h i s w h a t
y o u c a l l t h e “ B l a n k e t A ff i d a v i t ” t h a t y o u d e p o s e d to ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h a t i s t h e a ffi d a v it s t a r t in g a t p a g e 1 2 4 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t – s o th a t w a s t h e a ff id a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y y o u

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
o n t h e 2 4 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 , is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

2 5 t h C h a ir, 2 5 t h .
CHAIRPERSON: 25?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 4 0
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 4 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t n o n a m e i s g i v e n o n p a g e 1 2 4 w h ic h i s th e
fir s t p a g e o f t h e a ff id a v i t a s t o w h o th e p e r s o n is w h o is d e p o s i n g to t h e
10

a ffi d a v i t . T h a t w a s d o n e d e l ib e r a te ly is th a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t i t is y o u r a ffi d a v it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o h o w l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n i n

w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h e n e x t m o n t h t h e
2 1 s t O c to b e r w il l b e 8 y e a r s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i n t h o s e 8 y e a r s h a v e y o u b e e n c a ll e d t o
20

t e s ti fy in a n y c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t a n y o f t h e p e o p l e y o u h a v e
i m p l ic a t e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u b e e n t o l d w h y t h a t is s o ? N a m e l y w h y s u c h
a lo n g ti m e h a s la p s e d w i t h o u t b e i n g – w it h o u t y o u b e i n g c a l le d t o
t e s ti fy i n a n y c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d in g s r e l a ti n g t o t h e p e o p l e y o u h a v e –

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y o u i m p lic a t e d in y o u r s t a te m e n ts t o t h e H a w k s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

I have had

n u m e r o u s c o n s u lt a ti o n s o v e r a p e r i o d o f t i m e w i t h C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e a n d
at

times

he

had

expressed

h is

f r u s tr a ti o n s

regarding

c e r ta i n

d o c u m e n t a ti o n s th a t w e r e n o t fo r t h c o m i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

B u t o u t s i d e o f th a t I

c a n n o t s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

D id h e s a y t h a t t h e d e l a y w a s c a u s e d b y th e

f a c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e s e v e n d o c u m e n t s t h a t r e q u i r e d to b e d e c la s s i f ie d
b u t w e r e n o t b e i n g d e c la s s i f ie d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o d i d y o u te s t i fy a t d is c i p l in a r y
p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n
2 0 1 3 I a p p e a r e d o n b e h a l f o f th e S A P S a s a w i t n e s s i n th e s e
proceedings.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M s W e n tz e l I k in d d i d h a v e s o m e u n d e r s ta n d i n g

20

w h y y o u s ta r t e d w it h t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s
b e i n g p l a c e d o n t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m a n d n o t s ta r t i n g w i t h
t h e in c i d e n ts w h ic h h a p p e n e d b e fo r e t h a t h a p p e n e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I – I th in k t h a t is w h e r e y o u s h o u l d g o b e fo r e th e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e d i s c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g w o u l d h a v e

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h a p p e n e d l o n g a f t e r th o s e in c i d e n ts h a v e h a p p e n e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t is tr u e C h a ir t h e o n ly r e a s o n t o d o th is
is t o p u t i n c o n t e x t b e f o r e w e h e a r t h e i n c id e n c e s a s t o w h y it w a s th a t
C o l o n e l N a i d o o d e c id e d to c o m e c l e a n a s it w e r e a n d I t h in k i f – i f t h e
p u b lic c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e – b u t h e c o m e s c l e a n a f t e r k n o w in g c e r t a in

in c i d e n ts , c e r t a i n e v e n ts .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . N o C h a ir I a m in y o u r h a n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o …
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I a m p e r f e c tl y h a p p y t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a t a

d i ff e r e n t s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is m u c h m o r e l o g ic a l i f w e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c tu a l ly i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n b e t t e r e v e n to s ta r t w i th
t h o s e e v e n t s – t h o s e in c i d e n ts .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d f o ll o w i n g lo g ic a l ly u p t o th e ti m e h e w e n t o n t o

t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n .

B u t I k i n d o f c o n d o n e d y o u s t a r t in g w i t h t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g …
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n b u t w e s h o u ld s t a r t w i t h t h e

events.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e w il l d o th a t n o w C h a ir.

Page 58 of 156

Before Colonel

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
N a i d o o w e s t a r t w i t h t h e e v e n ts c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u r
h is t o r y h a s b e e n i n t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir I – I j o i n e d t h e

p o li c e i n 2 0 0 2 a s a c l e r k a n d p la c e d w i th in th e d iv is i o n C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e . T h a t s a m e y e a r N o v e m b e r I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o K Z N C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e g a t h e r i n g . I w a s p l a c e d i n th e Pr o v i n c i a l o ff ic e a ls o a s a
c le r k .

I t h i n k it w a s 2 0 0 4 I a p p li e d f o r a t r a n s f e r b a c k to C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e N a ti o n a l H e a d O ff ic e .

T h e r e I w a s p l a c e d in o n e o f t h e

o p e r a ti o n a l te a m s . T h i s w a s i n 2 0 0 4 . C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e G a th e r in g t h e
10

N a t io n a l H e a d O ffi c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And who did you work under?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

A t th a t s ta g e i t w a s

Colonel Malaza, V S Malaza.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w e r e y o u r d u ti e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It w a s – i t w a s – i t w a s

a d m i n is tr a t iv e d u t i e s b u t i n a c o v e r t e n v i r o n m e n t b e c a u s e th is w a s li k e
I m e n t io n e d it w a s a n o p e r a t i o n a l t e a m .

Al l t h e m e m b e r s w o r k i n g a t

t h is o ff ic e w e r e u n d e r c o v e r i n te ll ig e n c e o p e r a ti v e s .

A d e c is io n w a s

t a k e n b y t h e c o m m a n d e r th a t n o n e o f t h e o p e r a ti v e s s h o u ld g o to – t o
20

o u r H e a d O ff ic e . I a m r e f e r r in g to t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e H e a d O ffi c e .
S o I w a s d e le g a te d – I w a s t h e p e r s o n d e le g a t e d t o t a k e c a r e o f a l l o f
t h e s e a d m i n is tr a ti v e d u ti e s a t t h e C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e H e a d O ff ic e .

In

2 0 0 6 I w a s p r o m o t e d s t il l w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e I w a s p r o m o t e d t o
t h e r a n k o f W a r r a n t O ff ic e r.

H e r e I w a s u n d e r c o v e r i n t e ll i g e n c e

o p e r a ti v e . T h i s w a s p r o b a b l y f o r a b o u t a y e a r a n d a h a l f . Fo r a b r i e f

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
p e r i o d I w a s u n d e r t h e d ir e c t c o m m a n d o f C o l o n e l M a n i e Vic t o r.

In

2 0 1 0 o r r a th e r b e f o r e t h a t in – in a r o u n d 2 0 0 7 I w a s t r a n s f e r r e d to t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.

I r e p o r t e d t o C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w h o i n tu r n

r e p o r t e d t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . I n 2 0 1 0 I w a s p r o m o t e d to th e r a n k o f
L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l . Th a t w a s w i t h i n t h e 2 5 0 c o v e r p o s t s w i t h i n C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a n d

I o c c u p ie d o r

I w a s p la c e d

w i t h i n t h e f a c ili t y

m a n a g e m e n t a n d I o c c u p ie d th a t p o s t u n ti l t h e 2 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 u n t il I
w a s p l a c e d – t e m p o r a r i ly tr a n s fe r r e d i n to t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n
p r o g r a m . T h a t is v e r y b r i e f ly m y e m p l o y m e n t h i s t o r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is y o u r s t a t u s a t C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a s w e s p e a k
a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t? Yo u w e n t i n t o t h e w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m a t
a ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e e m p lo y e d a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
W h a t is – d o y o u – a r e y o u s t il l e m p lo y e d b y t h e m o r i s t h e p o s i ti o n
t h a t h a v i n g b e e n in t h e w it n e s s p r o g r a m f o r s o l o n g y o u a r e n o l o n g e r
employed by them?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :
s o m e i n s i g h t a s f a r a s I k n o w.

C h a ir ju s t t o g iv e y o u

I a m s t il l a m e m b e r o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e . I s t il l h o l d t h a t r a n k . My tr a n s f e r w a s t e m p o r a r y in t o th e
w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I s ti ll r e c e iv e a s a l a r y

fr o m t h e p o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e
C h a ir h o w y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t w o r k e d a n d w h a t

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t h e p r o c e d u r e w a s t o o b t a i n fu n d i n g fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i n e s s e n c e th e

v e r y, v e r y i n t h e s h o r t s u m m a r y i t i s a c o v e r t fu n d C h a ir. I t i s a f u n d
t h a t f u n d s a r e r e c e i v e d f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d i t is a l l o c a t e d t o t h e
p o li c e w e ll m o r e e s p e c i a lly C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

I t is u t il is e d b y C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e t o p a y f o r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s , p u r c h a s e s o f a s s e ts ,
e q u ip m e n t , a n d

v e h ic le s

e tc e te r a

r e q u ir e d

for

–

fo r

undercover

o p e r a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o is i t b a s ic a l ly f o r m o s t i f n o t a ll t h e o p e r a t i o n a l

n e e d s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C o l o n e l N a id o o h o w – w h a t p r o c e d u r e s

w e r e i n p l a c e in o r d e r t o o b t a in fu n d i n g w h e t h e r i t b e t o p u r c h a s e
e q u ip m e n t o r f o r a n u n d e r c o v e r o p e r a t i o n o r t o p a y a n i n fo r m e r. W h a t
p r o c e d u r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e fo ll o w e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir I t h i n k I a m n o t

g o i n g t o g o to o m u c h i n to t h e d e t a il b e c a u s e i t i s a c o v e r t e n v ir o n m e n t
s o I d o n o t w a n t to g o t o o m u c h in t o t h e d e ta il b u t I w i ll j u s t u s e a v e r y
20

simply example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

B e c a u s e i t is a g e n e r a l

t h i n g . I a m g o in g t o u s e my s e l f a s a n e x a m p le . I f I n e e d e d m o n e y f o r
– f o r p e tr o l f o r m y v e h i c l e w h ic h is a s ta t e v e h i c l e I w o u ld h a v e t o g e t
a n a d v a n c e fo r m .

F i ll i n a n a d v a n c e f o r m , g e t i t s ig n e d b y m y

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
c o m m a n d e r, t a k e i t t o t h e c a s h o ff ic e – a d v a n c e o ff ic e a s th e y c a ll i t ,
t h a t w i ll j u s t – th a t w i ll t h e n b e c a p t u r e d o n t h e ir s y s t e m a s a n
outstanding advance against my name.

T h o s e fu n d s w o u l d t h e n

s u b s e q u e n t ly b e h a n d e d o v e r t o m e w h ic h I h a v e t o s ig n f o r a s
r e c e i v i n g t h o s e fu n d s . M o n i e s w o u l d th e n b e u ti lis e d fo r t h a t s p e c i f ic
p u r p o s e in t h is c a s e b e i n g p e tr o l .

A t t h e e n d o f – a n d o b v io u s ly

r e c e i p ts w il l h a v e to b e k e p t f o r p u r c h a s e s o f p e tr o l . A t t h e e n d o f th e
m o n th I w o u l d h a v e t o c o m p il e a c l a i m . C h a ir i t is j u s t v e r y s i m p l e . I f
there was an overspend meaning if there was more than R2 000.00
10

s p e n t i n th is p a r t ic u l a r m o n t h o n c e i t h a s b e e n c a p t u r e d o n t h e s y s te m
t h a t m o n e y w il l b e r e i m b u r s e d t o m e .

I f th e r e is u n d e r s p e n t i t w il l

r e fl e c t a n a m o u n t o w i n g a g a i n s t my n a m e w h ic h I w il l h a v e t o p a y b a c k .
S o th a t i s j u s t u s i n g o n e e x a m p le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

But by and large this is

h o w t h e s y s t e m w o r k e d a n d th is is n o w t h e o n e le g I s p e a k o f w h e r e
c a s h w a s u s e d . I g o t o t h e o t h e r le g w h e r e a C o m p a n y X w a s in p la c e .
T h i s w a s to p a y fo r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
w i t h o u t – w i th o u t e x p o s i n g w h o t h e r e a l r e c i p i e n ts o f t h e s e a s s e t s
20

w e r e . S o t h a t is b y a n d l a r g e h o w C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w o r k s . Th a t is a t
le a s t h o w I u n d e r s ta n d i t to b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I j u s t w a n t to e m p h a s is e t h a t y o u w e r e r i g h t t o b e
c a u ti o u s a b o u t h o w y o u – a b o u t r e v e a l in g h o w c e r t a in th i n g s w o r k a n d
in t h i s r e g a r d I d o a s k y o u to b e q u i t e a l e r t b e c a u s e y o u a r e fa m i li a r
w i t h th e e n v i r o n m e n t a n d w i t h w h a t is n o t s u p p o s e d b e g e n e r a l ly

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revealed.

F r o m t i m e t o ti m e b o th M s W e n tz e l a n d I m ig h t a s k y o u

q u e s t io n s t h a t m i g h t r e q u ir e y o u to r e v e a l s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o u l d n o t b e
r e v e a l e d p u b li c l y b u t w h e n w e d o t h a t w e w o u l d n o t b e a w a r e
n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t i s n o t r e q u ir e d t o b e r e v e a l e d b u t
y o u w o u l d k n o w a n d y o u m u s t j u s t f e e l fr e e to a l e r t u s t o s a y t h a t t h a t
is s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d p r e f e r n o t to r e v e a l . A lr ig h t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l N a i d o o d i d y o u h e a r m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a i r s o r r y I th i n k t h e r e
10

is a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e –
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e s o u n d .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s t h e r e is a p r o b l e m .

Can – I am not sure…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t i s fr o m y o u r s id e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I cannot hear you very

c le a r ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t h e a r m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : N o . A t th is m o m e n t I c a n
b u t t h e p r e v io u s t w o m i n u t e s w a s a b it v a g u e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e tr y a n d r e p e a t w h a t I s a i d a n d s e e w h e th e r

y o u w il l h e a r m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f t h e p r o b le m a r is e s a g a i n w e m ig h t j u s t n e e d t o
a d j o u r n f o r t h e t e c h n i c i a n s to a tt e n d t o i t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s s a y i n g t h a t i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e q u e s ti o n th a t M s
W e n tz e l p u t to y o u a b o u t h o w t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t o p e r a t e s y o u
d i d m e n ti o n t h a t b e c a u s e i t r e la t e s t o c o v e r t o p e r a ti o n s y o u d id n o t
w a n t to r e v e a l m u c h b u t y o u u s e d y o u r o w n e x a m p l e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I w a s s a y in g M s W e n tz e l a n d I m a y fr o m ti m e t o

ti m e a s k y o u q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u m i g h t t h i n k r e q u ir e y o u t o r e v e a l
s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o u ld n o t b e r e v e a l e d p u b l ic l y a n d w h e n t h a t h a p p e n s
it w o u ld n o t b e d e l ib e r a t e o n o u r p a r t b u t i t m i g h t j u s t b e b e c a u s e w e
10

a r e n o t u s e d t o th a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e e n v ir o n m e n t . B u t b e c a u s e y o u
a r e u s e d t o i t f e e l fr e e t o i n d ic a t e th a t t h e a n s w e r t h a t y o u w o u l d b e
r e q u ir e d t o g iv e w o u l d r e v e a l i n f o r m a t io n th a t s h o u ld n o t b e r e v e a l e d
p u b lic ly. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w il l d o s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . L e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o l o n e l N a id o o h o w d i d y o u

b e c o m e a c q u a i n te d w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

w e a c t u a l ly p l a y e d v o l le y b a l l to g e th e r in t h e s a m e l e a g u e I t h i n k i t w a s
20

in t h e ’ 9 0 ’s . Th is w a s i n To n g a a t t h a t is t h e t o w n th a t w e l iv e d i n t h e r e
at that stage.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n K Z N ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G e n e r a l L a z a r u s is – w e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a r e a ls o r e la t e d b y f a m il y C h a ir. H is w i f e i n my m o t h e r ’s c o u s in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And how did you come to be employed at

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 0 2 C h a i r
I w a s t e m p o r a r i ly i n G a u t e n g . I w a s li v i n g w i t h my s is t e r a t t h a t s t a g e .
I w a s u n e m p lo y e d .

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a w a r e o f m y s it u a ti o n a n d I

a m n o t s u r e h o w it c a m e a b o u t b u t h e – h e a c t u a ll y d r e w u p a C V f o r
me
10

and

I

was

s u b s e q u e n tly

placed

or

employed

within

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e i n 2 0 0 2 I th in k i t w a s J u n e 2 1 s t th e r e a b o u t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i n w h a t p o s i t io n w e r e y o u e m p l o y e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w a s a c le r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a t t h a t

ti m e i f y o u a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ?
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

It

was

A s s is t a n t

Commissioner Raymond Lala.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r th a t – a ft e r y o u r

a p p o i n t m e n t t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W e l l M s W e n t z e l w h ic h

period you speaking of?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I am speaking of …
CHAIRPERSON:

2002 after you

had been

I n t e lli g e n c e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

Page 65 of 156

appointed

to Crime

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e is a s k e d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u s ta r t e d a t

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

In

terms

of

my

e m p l o y m e n t h is t o r y ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u r c o n f u s io n C o l o n e l
Lazarus…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t w is h t o d ir e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s d u r i n g 2 0 0 6 / 2 0 0 7
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d w i t h r e n o v a t io n s t o

General Lazarus’ home?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is in d e e d c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h a t q u e s ti o n a g a i n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W a s h e i n v o l v e d in r e n o v a t io n s to G e n e r a l

Lazarus’ home?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Could you…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W h e r e a r e w e o n – w h a t p a g e a r e w e o n h is

s t a te m e n t n o w ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a g e 5 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
a n s w e r.

O k a y.

Ye s c o n t in u e .

H e h a s g iv e n a n a ff ir m a ti v e

H e w a s i n v o l v e d i n r e n o v a ti o n s i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e .

H o w d i d th a t c o m e a b o u t C o l o n e l N a i d o o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 66 of 156

C h a ir a t t h a t s ta g e

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s l iv e s I t h i n k i t is a b o u t f o u r o r fi v e k il o m e tr e s a w a y
fr o m my h o u s e a n d I g e n e r a lly u s e d to p i c k h i m u p in th e m o r n i n g a n d
d r o p h i m o ff a t h is o ff ic e . T h is w a s g e n e r a lly w h a t h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : A r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 0 6 /2 0 0 7
h e b e g a n r e n o v a ti o n s a t h i s h o m e . I w a s a p p o i n t e d a p r o je c t m a n a g e r
a n d I s a id a p p o i n t e d p r o j e c t m a n a g e r I s a y t h a t i n i n v e r te d c o m m a s
b e c a u s e I c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n th e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r I w a s e m p lo y e d b y
C I.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

I w a s – I w a s b a s ic a lly

t h e r e t o o v e r s e e th e r e n o v a ti o n s a t h is p r i v a t e h o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o – w h o d i d h e h a v e c a r r y o u t t h e r e n o v a ti o n s i n

h is h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir h e h a d p r iv a te

b u il d e r s t h a t w e r e u n d e r t a k i n g o r c a r r y i n g o u t th e – t h e r e n o v a ti o n s . I
w a s j u s t b a s ic a ll y t h e r e t o s e e – to o v e r s e e t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e o n
n u m e r o u s ti m e s t h e b u il d e r s w o u l d r u n s h o r t o f – o f b u il d i n g m a t e r i a l
a n d e q u i p m e n t . I h a d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e y h a d a ll o f t h e s e th i n g s a ll
20

t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I did not hear who you said was carrying out the

r e n o v a t io n s . D o y o u w a n t t o r e p e a t t h a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s p r iv a te – i t
w a s p r iv a t e i n d iv i d u a ls . I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr iv a te C o n tr a c t o r ?

Page 67 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a l r i g h t . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w e r e a s k e d – e x c u s e m e . H e a s k e d y o u to b e
“ a p r o je c t m a n a g e r ” f o r t h e r e n o v a t i o n s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir i t w a s n o t a d ir e c t
in s t r u c t i o n .

I t j u s t h a p p e n e d o v e r ti m e a n d I c a n s a y t h is h a p p e n e d

o v e r a p e r i o d o f a t le a s t o v e r a y e a r w h e n t h e r e n o v a t i o n s w e r e
e v e n t u a l ly fi n i s h e d – c o m p le t e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e s a y in g h e a p p o i n t e d
y o u t o b e th e “ p r o je c t m a n a g e r ” . Is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t h e d i d a s k y o u to
b e th e “ p r o j e c t m a n a g e r ” o r is th e p o s it i o n t h a t h e k e p t – h e k e p t o n
a s k in g y o u t o b e i n v o l v e d in o n e o r a n o t h e r w i t h t h e r e n o v a ti o n s u n t il
y o u t h o u g h t f o r a l l i n te n d s a n d p u r p o s e s y o u w e r e th e “ p r o j e c t
manager”?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d C h a ir. I t w a s n o t
a d ir e c t i n s tr u c t i o n t h a t y o u a r e n o w t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r.

T h is

h a p p e n e d o v e r ti m e b e c a u s e e v e n tu a lly l i k e I w i ll te s t i fy to l a t e r i t w a s
a l m o s t o n a d a i ly b a s is th a t I – li k e I s a i d h e – h e tr a v e ll e d w i th m e .
20

O f t e n I h a d t o d r o p h i m o ff a t h is o w n o ff i c e a n d c o m e b a c k to th e s it e
b e c a u s e th e b u i l d e r s w o u l d n e e d o n e o r o t h e r e q u i p m e n t , b u il d i n g
s u p p li e s t h a t th e y w o u l d r u n s h o r t o f . S o th is h a p p e n e d q u i te o f t e n
C h a ir o v e r t h e p e r io d o f t h e y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …

Page 68 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A t th a t s t a g e w h o d id y o u r e p o r t t o f o r y o u r

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w o r k ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

if

I

remember

c o r r e c t ly I w a s - i n 2 0 0 6 I w a s p r o m o t e d t o t h e r a n k o f W a r r a n t O ff ic e r
lik e I t e s ti f ie d to a s a n u n d e r c o v e r i n te ll ig e n c e o p e r a ti v e . I t h i n k i t w a s
C o l o n e l M a n ie Vi c to r

that

we

r e p o r te d

to.

Chair

at

that

s ta g e

o v e r s e e i n g t h e - t h e p r o j e c t a t - o r t h e r e n o v a ti o n s t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’
home
10

it

was

a ff e c ti n g

my

a b il i ty

to

do

my

own

jo b

at

C o l o n e l M a n ie Vi c to r ’s h o m e - o ffi c e . S o r r y. P a r d o n m e .
S o th e a r r a n g e m e n t s w e r e m a d e o r I e x p r e s s e d my c o n c e r n
t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t I a m g e t ti n g p r e s s u r e a t m y o w n o ff ic e b e c a u s e
I d o n o t h a v e t h e t i m e to c o n d u c t n o r m a l p o l ic e w o r k t h a t I s h o u l d s h o u l d b e d o i n g . S o h e s a i d th a t h e w il l s p e a k t o G e n e r a l E ls . I m u s t
make

m e n t io n

that

G e n e r a l E ls

was

a

N a t io n a l

Head

of

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e g a th e r in g a t t h a t s t a g e .
H e w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e p e r s o n th a t C o l o n e l M a n i e Vi c t o r
reported to.

A r r a n g e m e n ts o r d is c u s s i o n s b e tw e e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

a n d G e n e r a l E l s - w e l l a t l e a s t th is i s w h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s in f o r m e d
20

m e th a t h e w i ll s p e a k t o G e n e r a l El s f o r m e t o b e tr a n s fe r r e d t o th e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d th a t i s w h e n I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o - to t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t a n d I r e p o r t e d t o C o l o n e l B a r n a r d .
Colonel Barnard

reported

to

General Lazarus

who

was

b a s ic a lly h is b o s s . S o t h i s w a s a c t u a l ly - t h is a r r a n g e m e n ts w a s - n e w
a r r a n g e m e n ts w a s m a d e t o fa c i li t a t e m e s t a r t o v e r s e e i n g t h e - t h e

Page 69 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
p r o j e c t a t h is - t h e r e n o v a t io n s t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e w i th o u t r e a lly
b e i n g p r e s s u r e d a t w o r k w i th n o r m a l d u ti e s th a t I s h o u l d b e p e r fo r m i n g .
S o t h e r e w a s n o p r e s s u r e fo r m e a t w o r k . S o t h a t b a s ic a l ly i n
e s s e n c e g a v e m e t h e t i m e t o c o n ti n u e to o v e r s e e t h e - t h e p r o j e c t a t
General Lazarus’ home.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a t th a t s t a g e w h o w a s t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l
O ff ic e r f o r t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d w h a t w a s C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s fu n c t io n to

whom he reported?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Colonel Barnard was -

w a s t h e H e a d o f th e P r o c u r e m e n t S e c ti o n w h i c h w a s a l e g t h a t f e l l
w i t h i n th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i n t h a t p o s i t io n w h ils t y o u w e r e n o t

supervising the construction at General Lazarus’ house what would
y o u r d u ti e s h a v e b e e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A t t h a t s t a g e - w e ll a t

le a s t o n p a p e r I - I w a s s u p p o s e d to b e m a n a g in g t h e v e h ic le f le e t o f
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now

how

did

you

come

to

know

G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r G e n e r a l M d l u li w a s
a p p o i n t e d i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly i n 2 0 0 9 .

I t h i n k i t w a s 1 J u ly.

W h e n h e w a s fi r s t a p p o i n t m e n t - a p p o i n t e d - p a r d o n m e . H e - h e h a d t o
- t h e r e w a s a l o t o f a s s e ts t h a t h e n e e d e d t o i n p l a c e f o r h i m t o g e t

Page 70 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
g o i n g a s t h e D iv is io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r. N a m e l y c a r s , c e l l p h o n e s a f e w
o th e r i t e m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B e f o r e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

B e f o r e y o u t a lk a b o u t G e n e r a l M d l u li in

2 0 0 9 . H a v e y o u e x h a u s t e d w h a t y o u n e e d t o te ll m e a b o u t i n r e g a r d t o
t h e r e n o v a t io n s a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e ?

Wa s t h e r e a n y th i n g

i m p o r t a n t i n r e g a r d t o y o u r r o l e th e r e o t h e r t h a n t h a t th e - y o u w e r e
u s i n g ti m e t h a t w a s m e a n t fo r y o u to w o r k a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e t o
10

a c t u a ll y o v e r s e e h is p r i v a t e p r o je c t in - in h is h o u s e . I s t h e r e - w h o w h o w a s p a y in g - w h o w a s g o i n g t o p a y f o r th o s e r e n o v a ti o n s a n d s o
on?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

it

was

him.

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s u n d e r t o o k th e - t h e fi n a n c ia l - i f t h e r e w a s a n y th i n g to
b e p a i d h e w o u ld g i v e m e m o n e y i n te r ms o f c a s h o r c h e q u e s to p a y fo r
t h e v a r io u s i te m s th a t n e e d e d to b e p u r c h a s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e - w h e r e d i d h e g e t t h a t m o n e y f r o m ? W a s th a t
m o n e y fr o m h is p o c k e t ?

Wa s t h a t m o n e y fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e

Account? What was the position?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
was in 2006.

C h a ir a t th a t s t a g e t h i s

I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r ta i n t h a t h e u s e d f u n d s fr o m t h e

S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So he - he gave you money and you did not

k n o w w h e r e - w h e t h e r i t w a s h is m o n e y o r n o t b u t y o u h a d n o r e a s o n t o
t h i n k i t m i g h t n o t b e h is m o n e y ?

Page 71 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s ta g e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O n n u m e r o u s o c c a s io n s

h e g a v e m e c a s h w h i c h h e h a d i n h is b a g t h a t h e c a r r i e d t o w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r ta i n

t h a t i t w a s h is o w n m o n e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O r it w a s m o n e y f r o m t h e
10

S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u n o w t u r n C o l o n e l N a id o o to e x p l a in
h o w y o u f ir s t c a m e t o k n o w G e n e r a l M d l u li ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

L ik e I m e n t io n e d e a r l ie r

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s p r o m o t e d - a p p o in t e d s o r r y - i n 2 0 0 9 , 1 J u ly.
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s t h e C F O a t t h a t s t a g e o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
A c c o u n t . G e n e r a l M d lu li li a is e d o f t e n w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n o r d e r to
20

g e t a s s e ts e tc e t e r a th a t h e n e e d e d t o g e t g o i n g in h i s p o s t .
Seeing
General Lazarus.

th a t

I

was

-

I

had

a

close

r e l a ti o n s h i p

with

I would be the one or the person that General

L a z a r u s w o u l d a s k fo r m e t o h e lp i n th e f a c il i ta t io n o f - o f g e t ti n g t h e s e
t o G e n e r a l M d l u li .
CHAIRPERSON:

When

General Mdluli

Page 72 of 156

was

appointed

to

Crime

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
I n t e lli g e n c e h e w a s a p p o i n te d t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f H e a d o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e . H e d id n o t o c c u p y a l o w e r p o s i ti o n i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
b e f o r e th a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r G e n e r a l M d l u li w a s
n o t i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n te d . S o I - I a m n o t s u r e .
H e w a s i n th e p o li c e . I - I s p e a k u n d e r c o r r e c t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t h e w a s n o t - h e w a s
n o t in t h e s tr u c t u r e o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t th a t s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k h e w a s i n S A P S .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. C o n ti n u e M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h o o c c u p i e d t h e p o s i t io n
G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o o k u p b e f o r e h e w a s th e r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Before he was appointed?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

20

It

was

As s is t a n t

Commissioner Mphego.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a f t e r th e a p p o in t m e n t o f G e n e r a l M d lu li

w h a t h a p p e n e d w it h r e g a r d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ p o s i ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Not so - so much in

t e r m s o f h is p o s i ti o n b u t if I c a n r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly. It w a s n o t l o n g a f t e r
t h a t I a m s p e a k in g o f J u ly 2 0 0 9 . I f I c a n r e c a l l c o r r e c tly G e n e r a l M d l u li

Page 73 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d o u t o f t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
N o t o u t o f t h e - n o t o u t o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b u t a n o th e r
c o m p o n e n t w i th i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ r e a c t io n t o

that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e r e s i s te d t h e - t h e

tr a n s fe r. Th is is a t le a s t w h a t I p ic k e d u p fr o m t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s t h a t I
h a d w it h h i m a n d th is is m y - a n d t h is is w h a t I f e e l . I t is n o t f a c t . I
10

feel the resistance came because if he was indeed transferred out of
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t t h e p e r s o n c o m i n g in t o t a k e c h a r g e w o u ld
h a v e a c c e s s t o a l l o f th e d o c u m e n ts , th e s y s t e m s in p la c e a t C r i m e - a t
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t a n d I th i n k t h a t p e r s o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n
e x p o s e d t o a ll o f t h e c o r r u p ti o n t h a t is t a k i n g p l a c e a t t h a t u n i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a id o o w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n f a c t

tr a n s fe r r e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e w a s n e v e r tr a n s f e r r e d
fr o m t h a t p o s i ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t tr a n s p i r e d d o y o u b e li e v e to e n s u r e
20

t h a t h e w a s n o t tr a n s f e r r e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r I a m g o i n g t o r e a d
p o i n t 2 2 f r o m p a g e 0 0 6 a n d I w il l e x p l a i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is p a r a g r a p h 2 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t b e f o r e t h i s

Commission at page 6?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .

Page 74 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H u h - u h .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The

h e a d i n g is

“The

I n v o lv e m e n t o f G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le ” a n d i ts p o in t 2 2 .
“ A t t h e ti m e th a t G e n e r a l M d lu li w a s a p p o i n t e d
G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e w a s th e N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r
of the SAPS and it was rumoured that whilst he had
b e e n a m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u tiv e C o m m i t te e o f
Tr a n s p o r t in K w a Zu l u - N a t a l h e h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d in
the
10

awarding

businessman

of

la r g e

tenders

Mr Panganathan

Ti m m y M a r i m u th u .

a ls o

to

a
known

local
as

Mr Marimuthu was a former

p o li c e o ff ic e r w h o I a m i n f o r m e d w a s c o n v i c te d o f
d r u g d e a l in g .

However as far as I am aware he

n e v e r s e r v e d a n y c u s t o d i a l s e n t e n c e f o r h is - fo r f o r th is c o n v ic ti o n a n d a s a r e s u lt o f t h e t e n d e r s h e
obtained through Mr Bheki Cele he became very
w e a lt h y o r e x tr e m e w e a l t h y. ”
T h a t i s a s p e r my s t a te m e n t C h a ir a n d i f I c a n ju s t e x p l a i n
w h a t I h a v e r e a d o u t . T h e s e - w h a t is i n m y s t a t e m e n t i s w h a t I p i c k e d
20

u p fr o m - fr o m h a v i n g c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h v a r i o u s o f m y c o ll e a g u e s a t
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . I c a n n o t s a y f o r s u r e t h a t it h a p p e n e d o n a s p e c i f ic
d a y a n d w h o I s p o k e to .
T h i s w a s ju s t w h a t I p i c k e d u p fr o m g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a t io n o v e r
a n u m b e r o f - o v e r a p e r io d o f t i m e f r o m a n u m b e r o f my c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u - s o y o u h a v e - y o u h a v e n o k n o w le d g e

Page 75 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
w h e t h e r w h a t y o u h e a r d w it h r e g a r d to G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e w a s tr u e o r
not?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir.

I cannot say

w h a t i s i n my s ta t e m e n t is a c t u a ll y t r u e . T h i s is w h a t I h e a r d . I f i t is
in d e e d tr u e . I - I c a n n o t s a y f o r s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o l o n e l N a id o o w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a w a r e o f
t h e a l le g e d a s s o c i a ti o n b e tw e e n G e n e r a l C e l e a n d Mr M a r i m u t h u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

Ye s h e w a s . L ik e I s a i d

C h a ir e a r li e r. G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s i n fo r m e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i t h a t h e
w a s g o i n g t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d o u t o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .
O b v io u s ly th e r e w a s r e s i s ta n c e .

H e w a s a w a r e o f t h is - t h i s

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Mr M a r i m u t h u a n d B h e k i C e l e .
H e s u b s e q u e n t ly m a d e - m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r a m e e t i n g to
be held between himself and Bheki Cele as Mr Marimuthu would be the
- th e g o t o g u y. S o t o s p e a k o r t h e p e r s o n w h o w o u l d f a c il it a t e t h i s t h is m e e ti n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h y d o y o u b e li e v e t h a t h e w a n t e d t o

h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l C e l e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e i n i t ia l m e e t in g

I

c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c t ly b u t t h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l m e e t in g s h e ld w i th G e n e r a l
- b e t w e e n G e n e r a l C e le a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s h e w o u ld i n f o r m m e
t h a t h e is g o in g to m e e t G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And were you ever present at any of these

m e e ti n g s ?

Page 76 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I w a s p r e s e n t - n o t
a c t u a ll y a t t h e m e e ti n g .

I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h e e x a c t y e a r.

It probably

w o u ld h a v e b e e n 2 0 0 9 o r r a th e r n o t 2 0 0 9 . E a r ly 2 0 0 9 /2 0 1 0 . I t w a s a t
M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e in U m h l a n g a R o c k s i n D u r b a n .

W e w e r e th e r e

a lr e a d y.
When

I

say

we

it

was

myself,

General Lazarus

and

M r M a r i m u t h u . T h e y w e r e w a i ti n g - ( c l e a r in g t h r o a t ) p a r d o n m e C h a ir.
We …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r v is i t t o M r M a r i m u t h u i n
10

Umhlanga?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair

th e

-

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s w a i ti n g f o r G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e . T h e y w e r e h a v i n g
a m e e t i n g . W e w e r e p r o b a b ly t h e r e a r o u n d - a b o u t t w o h o u r s o r s o . I f
I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly w e h a v e n o t e v e n h a d s o m e te a o r s o m e
beverages.
I

am

not

too

sure

and

closer

to

the

time

that

G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a r r iv e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o l d m e th a t i t w a s n o t
e a s y t o o r g a n is e a m e e ti n g w i t h - w i t h B h e k i C e l e a n d h e m a d e a c a ll .
T h i s w a s i n m y p r e s e n c e C h a ir. H e m a d e a c a ll t o a n o th e r C I m e m b e r
20

w h ic h is F M 0 8 to o r g a n i s e c a s h w h ic h I a s s u m e d w a s t o b e p a i d o v e r t o
G e n e r a l C e l e w h e n h e e v e n t u a ll y a r r iv e d f o r th e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n tz e l y o u c a n s e e t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 t h e r e i s
no reference to FM08.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a s j u s t s a i d th a t p e r s o n w a s F M 0 8 .

Page 77 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Would you make sure that that is replaced with a

page that has got that?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l .
CHAIRPERSON:

And check whether there are any other gaps in the

a ffi d a v i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

We did discover gaps and it is being

a tt e n d e d to n o w C h a ir a n d th a t w il l b e r e p l a c e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

Were you - was General Lazarus within your

h e a r in g w h e n h e s p o k e t o F M - F M 0 8 o n t h a t o c c a s i o n o n t h e p h o n e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I - I d o n o t r e c a l l

h e a r in g th e - t h e w h o le c o n v e r s a ti o n b u t I d o k n o w t h a t h e - h e p h o n e d
F M 0 8 to o r g a n is e c a s h . I - I - if I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y h e to l d m e th a t h e i s
g o i n g t o p h o n e F M 0 8 b u t s u b s e q u e n t to t h a t - s u b s e q u e n t t o h is …
CHAIRPERSON:

Before - before subsequent to that.

How did you

k n o w t h a t t h e c a ll w a s a b o u t o r g a n is i n g c a s h ? D id h e t e l l y o u t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a s s u m e d t h a t i t

w a s t o o r g a n is e c a s h b a s e d o n w h a t h e s a i d a m in u te e a r li e r.

It was

n o t e a s y to ( m e c h a n ic a l i n t e r fe r e n c e ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON:
because

he

Ye s , b u t s i m p ly b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t e a s y to - s i m p ly

said

it was

not easy

to

o r g a n is e

a

meeting

with

G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e s h o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r il y h a v e a n y t h in g to d o w i t h h is
c a l l b e i n g a c a l l t o o r g a n is e c a s h . S o w h a t m a d e y o u - w h a t m a k e s y o u
a s s o c i a t e th e c a l l w i t h c a s h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t r e a l ly s a y C h a i r

Page 78 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
b u t t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h o f m y s t a t e m e n t w ill - w il l a d d s o m e i n s i g h t a s
t o w h y I t h in k i t w a s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

at

-

l ik e

I

m e n ti o n e d a t th e - I w a s a ls o p r e s e n t w h il e th is p h o n e c a l l t o o k p l a c e .
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s n o t a w a r e th a t I h a d c a s h w i t h m e .

It was

R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w h ic h I h a d t a k e n fr o m o u r H e a d O ffic e . W h e n I s a y “ o u r ”
it is C I H e a d O ffi c e in P r e t o r i a .
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h a t th e - w h a t t h e a d v a n c e w a s
10

f o r. A t t h i s - a t th is s t a g e I c a n n o t r e a l ly. I i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
t h a t I h a d t h e c a s h a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly h a n d e d h i m t h e m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e r e is - t h e r e i s a g a p t h e r e .

y o u t h a t h e w a s m a k in g a c a ll to g e t c a s h fr o m F M 0 8 .

He did not tell
H e s a i d th a t

o r g a n i s i n g a m e e ti n g w i th G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e w a s n o t e a s y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n h e m a d e a c a ll to F M 0 8 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s n o t - y o u d i d n o t h e a r t h e ir c o n v e r s a ti o n o n

the phone?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a s s u m e d t h a t t h e c a ll w a s a b o u t c a s h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is i n d e e d - i n d e e d

c o r r e c t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 79 of 156

As

to

what

I

heard

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
p r e v i o u s ly w h a t h e - w h a t h e h a d s a i d to m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e i f I a m w r o n g n o w.

As I

u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u c a n n o t s a y w h y y o u a s s u m e d t h e c a ll t o h a v e b e e n
about cash. Am I right?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w a s a n a s s u m p ti o n

C h a ir. I c a n n o t s a y fo r s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

you

cannot

t e ll

me

why

you

made

that

a s s u m p t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e n e x t t h i n g y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 :
“At the time General Lazarus was unaware that I
h a d R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 i n c a s h w it h m e w h ic h I h a d t a k e n
fr o m H e a d O ffic e fo r s o m e o th e r p u r p o s e w h i c h I
c a n n o t r e c a l l. ”
Yo u th e n s a y :
“ I t h e n in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b o u t t h e c a s h
a n d h a n d e d h i m t h e m o n e y. ”

20

T h e r e i s a g a p in th e s t o r y t h e r e .

How does it come about

t h a t y o u - y o u g iv e h i m c a s h w h e n t h e r e h a s b e e n n o d is c u s s i o n a b o u t
c a s h ? H e h a s n o t t o l d y o u a b o u t h e - h e n e e d s m o n e y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir t h e r e - I a m

w i t h y o u - t h e r e i s - th e r e i s a g a p b u t t h i s is w h a t I r e c a l l fr o m - fr o m
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r i n c i d e n t C h a ir.

Page 80 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d y o u t o r e c a ll m u c h

m o r e t h a n ju s t th a t b e c a u s e i t s e e m s t o m e t h e c o n t e x t i f th e r e w a s
d is c u s s io n o f c a s h m a y w e ll h a v e b e e n b r ib e r y o r c o r r u p t io n a n d I
w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e r e m e m b e r e d h o w t h e is s u e o f
c a s h c a m e a b o u t.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
t h is s t a g e I c a n n o t r e c a ll .

C h a ir u n f o r t u n a t e l y a t

W h a t is in m y s t a t e m e n t a s - is - I r e c a ll

w h a t a s is in m y s t a te m e n t .

I - I c a n n o t r e c a ll a n y o t h e r f u r t h e r -

f u r th e r d e t a i ls t h a n - th a n w h a t is in t h e s t a te m e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u r e c a l l w h y y o u h a d t h a t R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 c a s h
w i t h y o u ? W h a t p u r p o s e y o u w a n t e d t o u s e i t fo r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I cannot recall?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I h a d m a n y - I h a d m a n y
a d v a n c e s o n my n a m e f o r n u m e r o u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F o r n u m e r o u s p u r p o s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t t h e t i m e o f - o f b e i n g -

20

o f m y b e i n g a d m it t e d i n t o w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n i n O c t o b e r 2 0 11 I h a d
a l m o s t 1 4 0 t o R 1 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 o f o u ts t a n d i n g a d v a n c e s a g a i n s t my n a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

A n y w a y - ( c o u g h in g ) e x c u s e m e .

Yo u

t o l d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t y o u h a d R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 o n y o u a n d y o u h a n d e d
it h i m - h a n d e d i t to h i m . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y w h y h e w a n te d - h e w a n te d t h a t m o n e y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir fr o m w h a t h e s a i d fr o m w h a t h e s a i d e a r l i e r i t w a s n o t e a s y to o r g a n is e a m e e t i n g w i th
B h e k i C e l e a n d m e s u b s e q u e n tly h a n d i n g h i m t h e c a s h .

Th is w a s m y

b e li e f th a t t h a t m o n e y w a s i n t e n d e d t o p a y G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h is w a s a ll - y o u r a s s u m p t io n s . H e d i d n o t s a y
that himself?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. H e d i d n o t . I t
is - i t i s a n a s s u m p ti o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u w il l ju s t h a v e t o b e c a r e f u l a n d in - i n y o u r
e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e w h il e o n e c a n a c c e p t a f e w a s s u m p ti o n s y o u k n o w.
I t is g o i n g t o b e d i ff ic u l t i f - t h e r e a r e g o i n g t o b e t o o m a n y
a s s u m p t io n s . S o tr y a n d r e m e m b e r to th e b e s t o f y o u r a b i li t y. I k n o w
t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g m a n y, m a n y y e a r s l a te r.
I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t b u t i t i s i m p o r ta n t t h a t w e - t h a t I g e t a s
m u c h i n t e r m s o f f a c ts a s - a s p o s s i b l e a s - a s y o u r e c a ll t h e m . Yo u
understand that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d C h a ir. I - I w il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll d o y o u r b e s t ?

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w il l tr y m y b e s t a s w e

go along now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
g a t h e r my t h o u g h t s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 82 of 156

B u t a ls o I w i ll tr y a n d

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d if - a n d i f n e e d b e I
w i ll p u t in a s u p p le m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y. A lr ig h t . N o t h a t is f i n e . M s W e n t z e l le t

us continue.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A f t e r y o u h a d g i v e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th e

40 000 cash that you had on you what happened?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h i s w a s - l ik e I

m e n ti o n e d - th is w a s i n Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s h o m e i n D u r b a n - U m h la n g a
Rocks.
10

W e w e r e in o n e p a r t o f th e h o u s e .

When General -

G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a r r iv e d w h ic h I d i d n o t s e e h i m a r r i v i n g b u t
o b v i o u s l y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s to ld m e h e i s g o i n g i n to a m e e ti n g w i th
G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a n d h e d o e s n o t w a n t m e t o b e p a r t o f t h a t m e e ti n g .
So I remained in that part of the house.
General Bheki Cele

was

h e ld

in

another

section

The meeting with
of

the

house.

M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e is q u i t e v a s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u - d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d s t il l b e a b l e
t o t a k e s o m e b o d y t o Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Pardon

C h a ir.

P h y s i c a lly ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d b e a b l e to t a k e

s o m e b o d y t o M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

To - t o p h y s ic a ll y g o

there?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 83 of 156

Ye s .

I w i ll .

I w i ll .

I

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
k n o w w h e r e t h e h o u s e is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h e r e it is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e n a f t e r th is m e e ti n g d id G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

r e tu r n a l l o r a n y o f t h e m o n e y b a c k to y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n o n e o f t h a t m o n e y
w a s r e tu r n e d to m e a n d I - a n d a n a s s u m p t io n a g a in o n m y p a r t th a t t h e
money was handed over to General Bheki Cele.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w if w e c a n j u s t lo o k a t a n o th e r t h in g . I s

that …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y d id y o u n o t a s k G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h a t a r e y o u

g o i n g t o d o w i t h t h is m o n e y ? I h a d a n o t h e r p u r p o s e f o r i t . W h y d o y o u
n e e d t h is m o n e y ? I h a v e a - I h a v e i t o n m e f o r a n o t h e r p u r p o s e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t th a t s t a g e t h i s

w a s in - in 2 0 0 0 - p r o b a b ly 2 0 0 9 / 2 0 1 0 . R e m e m b e r t h e t i m e p e r i o d t h e t h e a c c o u n t w a s a lr e a d y b e i n g a b u s e d b y t h e n a lr e a d y C h a ir b y - w it h
la r g e a m o u n ts o f - o f m o n e y w a s t a k e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o I d i d n o t b o t h e r to - t o
ask him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . G e t t in g a n o t h e r a m o u n t w o u ld - w a s n o t g o i n g t o
b e a p r o b le m f r o m t h e a c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t a t a ll C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e r e w a s o f t e n r o ll in g I th in k m a y b e ju s t t o g iv e y o u s o m e i n s i g h t C h a i r o n th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O n th is i n c id e n t a n d I -

a n d I s p e a k f o r my s e l f b e c a u s e t h i s is w h a t I d i d .

On numerous

occasions …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I

a m o u n ts

w i th

that

I could

not

r e c o n c il e .

So

to o k

advances

big

General Lazarus’

k n o w l e d g e a n d h is a p p r o v a l b e c a u s e m o s t o f th e t i m e h e s i g n e d m y
advances.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u l d t a k e - s a y ju s t t o
g iv e y o u a s i m p l e e x a m p l e . I f R 1 0 ,0 0 w a s o u ts t a n d i n g o n m y n a m e a n d
I c o u l d n o t p a y b a c k th e R 1 0 ,0 0 .

I w o u ld t a k e a n o th e r a d v a n c e f o r

R 1 0 , 0 0 a n d p a y o ff t h e p r e v io u s a d v a n c e t h a t w a s o u ts ta n d i n g . S o i t is
b a s ic a lly w h a t is k n o w n a s r o l li n g a d v a n c e s t o p a y o ff a n o th e r a d v a n c e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d t h is w a s d o n e o n

n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s b y my s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - o k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o lo n e l N a i d o o t o c l a r i fy y o u s a y t h a t b e fo r e
G e n e r a l C e l e a r r i v e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o l d y o u it is n o t e a s y to
o r g a n i s e a m e e t in g w i t h B h e k i C e l e .

W h o w a s i t th a t o r g a n i s e d t h e

Page 85 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
m e e ti n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That

-

that

-

an

a s s u m p t io n a g a in - w o u ld b e M r M a r i m u t h u b e c a u s e t h e m e e t in g w a s
h e l d a t h is h o u s e . S o h e w o u l d h a v e h a d k n o w l e d g e o f - o f a m e e ti n g
in h is h o u s e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Why then …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th e q u e s ti o n i s w h o m a d e t h is r e m a r k . W h o
s a i d i t w a s n o t o r r a t h e r I a m s o r r y. I t h i n k I a m - I a m …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I m a y b e c o n f u s i n g b o t h y o u a n d M s W e n tz e l. O k a y.
S o I - s o y o u - s o I t h in k t h e q u e s ti o n w a s w h o o r g a n is e d t h e m e e ti n g
w i t h G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le i n Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e a n d y o u r a n s w e r i s
y o u a s s u m e i t w a s M r M a r i m u th u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n a s s u m p ti o n a g a i n .

Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W i t h h a v i n g m a d e t h a t a s s u m p ti o n w h y d i d

y o u a s s u m e th a t th e m o n e y t h a t y o u b e li e v e w a s r e q u e s t e d o r w a s
n e e d e d w a s t o p a y G e n e r a l C e le a n d n o t M r M a r i m u t h u w h o o r g a n is e d
20

t h e m e e ti n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
e a r l ie r.

C h a ir l ik e I m e n t io n e d

W e w e r e a t Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e f o r q u i t e s o m e t i m e .

P r o b a b ly o n e a n d a h a lf h o u r s o r m a y b e t w o . T h e r e w a s n o a t te m p t o n
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s id e to o r n o a t te m p t t o - t o c o n t a c t F M 0 8 i n th a t
p e r i o d w h i le w e w a i t e d f o r M r B h e k i C e l e t o a r r iv e to o r g a n is e c a s h .

Page 86 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
S o t h e r e w a s a m p l e t i m e f o r h i m to - t o - I a m s p e a k i n g n o w
about General Lazarus

now -

a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r t h e c a s h .

f o r h i m to

phone FM08

to make

It w a s o n ly c l o s e r to t h e ti m e t h a t

G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a r r iv e d th a t th is a r r a n g e m e n t w a s m a d e f o r c a s h .
S o a n a s s u m p t io n a g a in o n m y s id e .
T h a t is w h y

I b e li e v e d t h a t t h e

money

w a s g iv e n

to

G e n e r a l C e l e a n d n o t to M r M a r i m u th u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u - w o u l d it b e t r u e t o s a y th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w

w h e t h e r - w h e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s c a m e o u t o f th e r o o m w h e r e h e h a d a
10

m e e ti n g w it h G e n e r a l C e l e y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e c a m e b a c k w it h
t h e m o n e y o r n o t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
m o n e y r e t u r n e d to m e .

C h a ir

there

was

no

S o I a s s u m e d t h e m o n e y w a s p a id o v e r t o

General Cele.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t h e c o u ld h a v e c o m e b a c k w i t h th e m o n e y i n
h is o w n p o c k e t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t is - i t is a p o s s i b i li t y

C h a ir, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o y o u - y o u r e a l ly d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d
20

t o t h e m o n e y o t h e r t h a n t h a t y o u g a v e i t t o h i m a n d h e n e v e r g a v e it
b a c k to y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l

N a id o o

was

General

Lazarus

tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m h is p o s i t io n a s C F O o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e a c c o u n t ?

Page 87 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o h e w a s n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e g o b a c k t o t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g , d i d y o u
know what the actual purpose of the meeting was, why General Lazarus
wanted to meet with General Cele?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir, n o r e a s o n s

w e r e g i v e n to m e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , e x c e p t t o s a y t h a t h e w a s h a v i n g
a m e e t in g w i t h G e n e r a l C e l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – d i d y o u a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s g o a l l t h e w a y

fr o m G a u t e n g t o K Z N t o m e e t w i th G e n e r a l C e l e w i t h o u t y o u f i n d in g o u t
10

w h a t i s t h e p u r p o s e a n d w h y s h o u ld I c o m e w i t h y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

if

I

remember

c o r r e c t ly i t w a s n o t a s p e c i fi c m e e ti n g w h e r e w e fl e w d o w n fr o m
G a u t e n g t o K Z N t o m e e t w i t h G e n e r a l C e l e , i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly
w e w e r e in K w a Z u l u N a t a l fo r a f e w d a y s , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly
w h y w e w e r e t h e r e b u t i t w a s n ’t s p e c i fi c a ll y t o f ly d o w n fo r t h a t
m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d o n e o f th e d a y s

w h il e w e w e r e i n K Z N t h i s m e e t i n g c a m e u p .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y n o t h a t is a lr ig h t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u

n o w p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t a p r iv a te tr i p t h a t w a s u n d e r ta k e n b y
G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h is w i f e t o C h in a .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h a t q u e s t i o n C o l o n e l N a id o o , s o m e h o w in

y o u r e v id e n c e th e r e is a n i m p li e d s u g g e s ti o n th a t t h e r e a s o n w h y

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
General Lazarus was not transferred as had been proposed by General
M d lu li w a s b e c a u s e G e n e r a l – b e c a u s e h e s o u g h t t h e s u p p o r t o f
G e n e r a l C e le t o o p p o s e t h e tr a n s fe r.

I s m y r e a d in g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e

correct?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u d o n o t a c tu a lly h a v e a n y b a s is

f o r t h a t i m p li c a t io n o r i n s i n u a ti o n o th e r th a n t h a t y o u k n o w th a t G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s a p p r o a c h e d G e n e r a l C e l e a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g , i s th a t
r ig h t o r is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g m o r e o n w h ic h y o u b a s e th a t o n ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r

r e g a r d in g th is in c i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d i d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a t a n y s ta g e s a y t o y o u o r
w i t h i n y o u r h e a r in g t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to a p p r o a c h G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e
in o r d e r t o p r e v e n t G e n e r a l M d lu li fr o m tr a n s f e r r i n g h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s w a s , l ik e I s a i d
t h is w a s n o t a n in i ti a l m e e ti n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e i n i ti a l m e e t in g w i t h

G e n e r a l C e le w a s f o r t h a t s p e c i fi c p u r p o s e th a t h e is n o t tr a n s f e r r e d .
20

T h i s w a s s u b s e q u e n t , t h is w a s o n e o f t h e s e v e r a l m e e ti n g s t h a t h e h a d
t h a t I w a s p r iv y t o , o r r a th e r n o t p r i v y t o , b u t I w a s i n t h e r o o m o r i n t h e
s a m e v ic in i ty.

S o i t is n o t – t h is i s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is o n e is n o t c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e tr a n s fe r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
s p e a k o f n o w i s n o t c o n n e c t e d t o t h e t r a n s f e r.

Page 89 of 156

T h e i n c id e n t th a t w e

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That

was

the

i n i ti a l

c o n ta c t t h a t w a s m a d e w i t h B h e k i C e l e , f o r t h a t s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e i t w a s
b a s ic a lly t o g e t a – o r g a n is e a m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e , s o t h i s
in c i d e n t th a t I s p e a k o f is s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t , i t w a s o n e o f s e v e r a l
m e e ti n g s p r i o r to t h e – o r s u b s e q u e n t to t h e f ir s t i n it i a l m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t m e tr y a n d u n d e r s ta n d t h is .

As y o u

u n d e r s t a n d i t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d a n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s w i t h G e n e r a l
C e l e , is th a t r i g h t?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m a n y o f t h o s e d i d y o u a t te n d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w a s th is o n e th a t I

t e s ti fi e d to n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w a s i t t h e o n ly o n e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e p u r p o s e o f t h is o n e
w a s , is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e e x c l u d e d f r o m t h e a c t u a l m e e ti n g w h e n
20

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d a d i s c u s s io n w i t h G e n e r a l C e l e i n a n o t h e r r o o m a t
M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e o r a n o t h e r s e c ti o n o f th e r o o m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w a s M r M a r i m u t h u p a r t o f t h a t d i s c u s s io n

between General Cele and General Lazarus?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 90 of 156

I assume that he would

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
h a v e b e e n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th e m e e t in g i n a n o t h e r r o o m in w h ic h y o u w e r e

a t M r M a r i m u t h u ’s h o u s e , o r w a s i t in th e s a m e r o o m b u t i n a d i ff e r e n t
s e c t io n , a w a y fr o m y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was in another room

C h a ir, n o t in t h e s a m e r o o m t h a t I w a s i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, b u t f o r a ll in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s o t h e r t h a n
10

t h a t y o u g a v e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s o m e m o n e y, R 4 0 0 0 0 , w h ic h y o u
a s s u m e d w a s g o in g t o b e g iv e n t o s o m e b o d y, a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
w h e t h e r y o u s a i d M r M a r i m u t h u o r G e n e r a l C e le . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is r ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n th e r e is n o p a r ti c u l a r s i g n i f ic a n c e in t h a t

m e e ti n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a c t u a ll y i f o n e d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t th e R 4 5 0 0 0
w a s f o r t h e r e is a c tu a l ly n o s i g n i fi c a n c e to t h a t m e e ti n g a t a ll ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w i s t h e r e a m e e ti n g t h a t y o u a t t e n d e d w h ic h
in v o lv e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d G e n e r a l C e l e w h ic h r e la t e d t o G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s p o s s i b l e t r a n s f e r a w a y fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . O k a y a n y o f t h e m e e t in g s t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
m a y h a v e h a d w it h G e n e r a l C e le y o u d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y a r e o f a n y

Page 91 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
s ig n if ic a n c e d o y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, M s W e n t z e l ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

J u s t tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t w e g o t o t h o s e is s u e s

t h a t a r e r e a l ly o f i m p o r ta n c e f o r o u r p u r p o s e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I w il l C h a i r. C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

p l e a s e n o w d e a l w it h t h e p r iv a te tr ip t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h i s w i fe
t o o k t o C h in a .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

if

I

remember

c o r r e c t ly t h i s w a s a r o u n d O c t o b e r / N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 , i t w a s ju s t a f e w
m o n th s a f te r G e n e r a l M d lu li w a s a p p o i n te d a s C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e
D i v is io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.

P r i o r t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i fly i n g t o C h i n a w i t h

h is w i fe G e n e r a l L a z a r u s to ld m e , I r e m e m b e r t h e c o n v e r s a t io n I h a d
w i t h h i m , h e s a id to m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a n ts t o t a k e h i s w i f e t o
C h i n a a n d w e m u s t s e e h o w w e c a n h e l p h i m , a n d C h a ir if I c a n r e a d
fr o m m y s t a t e m e n t h is e x a c t w o r d s to m e , a n d I s a y t h is is G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s ’s w o r d s , t h a t D e l a n i w a n ts to t a k e h is v r o u t o C h in a a n d w e
must see how we can help him.
20

T h is s i m p ly m e a n s D e l a n i r e f e r r i n g to

G e n e r a l M d l u l i , w a n ts t o t a k e h is v r o u , w h ic h is h is w if e a t t h a t s t a g e
w a s – I d o n o t k n o w h e r f u l l n a m e , I th i n k i t is Vu z i w a n e , to C h in a a n d
w e m u s t s e e h o w w e c a n h e lp h i m .
The reference to we there I assume was General Lazarus and
Colonel Barnard.
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h e n in s tr u c te d m e t o m a k e e n q u ir i e s w i th

Page 92 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
r e g a r d s t o t h e a ir t ic k e t s . I t h i n k I w e n t to M e n ly n P a r k , i t w a s a F li g h t
C e n tr e w h e r e I m a d e e n q u i r i e s .

C h a ir b e fo r e I g o t h e r e I t h i n k I a m

ju m p i n g t h e g u n a b it , I w o u l d h a v e s p o k e n e i t h e r to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o r
G e n e r a l M d l u l i b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly to m a k e b o o k i n g s I w o u ld h a v e t o g e t
t h e ir I D n u m b e r s a n d t h e ir d e s ti n a ti o n o f t r a v e l , s o i t w a s e i t h e r o n e o f
t h e m w h o h a d g iv e n m e t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Once

I

had

the

in f o r m a ti o n , l ik e I s a i d I w e n t t o F li g h t C e n tr e , i t w a s M e n lo P a r k o r th e
10

M a ll t h e r e , I d o n ’ t r e c a l l th e n a m e , I m a d e p r o v is i o n a l b o o k i n g s fo r
G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h i s w i f e a t t h a t s t a g e , Vu z i w a n e L il y M d lu li . O n t h e
3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 G e n e r a l L a z a r u s c a ll e d m e t o h is o ff ic e , w h e n I
g o t th e r e C h a i r h e h a d a n e n v e l o p e w i t h h i m .

At that stage I cannot

r e c a l l i f h e t o l d m e w h a t w a s i n th e e n v e lo p e o r w h a t th e c o n te n ts o f
t h e e n v e l o p e w a s o r a t l a t e r s ta g e b u t w h a t I c a n r e c a ll o f t h e i n c i d e n t
is t h a t h e to l d m e – h e g a v e m e th e e n v e lo p e w h i c h w a s o n h is d e s k , h e
s a i d t h a t I m u s t ta k e t h e e n v e l o p e a n d k e e p i t w i t h m e , b e c a u s e h e i s
g o i n g in t o a n o th e r m e e ti n g w i th a n o t h e r C o l o n e l H e i n i f I r e m e m b e r
c o r r e c t ly.
20

I d id s o , I t o o k t h e e n v e l o p e , I p u t i t i n m y b a g a n d I w a i te d a t
t h e r e c e p ti o n a t h i s o ff ic e , o u ts id e o f h is o ffic e .

W h i l e I w a s w a i ti n g

t h e r e C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a ls o c a m e t o t h e r e c e p t i o n .

H is m e e t in g w i th

C o l o n e l H e in a n d w h e n I s a y h is m e e ti n g , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s m e e t i n g
w i t h C o lo n e l H e i n w a s p r o b a b ly a f e w m in u te s , i t d i d n o t t a k e l o n g ,
w h e n C o l o n e l H e i n h a d f in is h e d w it h h is m e e ti n g h e l e ft a n d G e n e r a l

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
L a z a r u s c a ll e d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a n d m y s e lf i n t o h is o ff ic e .
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n fo r m e d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s R 5 0 0 0 0 i n t h e
e n v e l o p e , l ik e I s a id e a r l ie r C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e a t t h a t s t a g e a b o u t t h e
R 5 0 0 0 0 o r i t w a s p r e v i o u s l y t o C o l o n e l H e i n ’s m e e t i n g w i t h h i m , b u t
w h a t I c a n s a y is t h a t h e i n d e e d t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s R 5 0 0 0 0 i n th e
e n v e l o p e , th is h e s a id t h e y m a n a g e d t o g e t a l o a n fr o m M r J a n Ve n t e r.
C h a ir M r J a n Ve n te r is a d e a le r p r i n c i p a l o f A t la n ti s M o t o r s , a
c o m p a n y o f w h ic h C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e p u r c h a s e s th e ir v e h ic le s fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

T h is w a s a l o a n fo r w h a t p u r p o s e a n d i n w h o s e

favour?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

t h is

was

what

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o l d m e , t h e y h a d m a n a g e d t o s e c u r e a lo a n fr o m M r
J a n Ve n t e r to p u r c h a s e a t ic k e t f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s w i fe fo r h is
t e n t a tiv e tr i p t o C h i n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o n t in u e Ms W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h a t th e n t r a n s p ir e d C o lo n e l N a i d o o ?

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir o n t h a t s a m e d a y,

a n d I s p e a k o f t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I ’ m s o r r y, y o u t o o k th e e n v e l o p e a n d t h e r e w a s R 5 0

0 0 0 i n th e e n v e l o p e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair I assumed that

t h e r e w a s R 5 0 0 0 0 i n t h e e n v e l o p e , I d i d n o t o p e n i t a n d I d id n o t c o u n t
t h e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d i d y o u f i n d o u t la t e r t h a t th e r e w a s R 5 0 0 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d I d i d .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir o n th e s a m e d a y,

t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r a f te r r e c e iv in g , a f te r s p e a k in g o r r a t h e r w i t h a
s h o r t m e e ti n g w i t h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n d m y s e l f a n d a f t e r h a n d in g o v e r
t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 w h i c h w a s i n t h e e n v e l o p e , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n s tr u c te d m e
t o t a k e a n o t h e r – a f u r t h e r R 5 0 0 0 0 a d v a n c e fr o m th e c a s h o ffi c e ,
a d v a n c e o ff ic e , o n m y n a m e .

T h is w a s t o p a y f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s

ti c k e t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H o w m u c h w a s th a t , h e i n s tr u c t e d y o u t o t a k e h o w

much?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R 5 0 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e Ac c o u n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t

t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I f ill e d i n t h e n e c e s s a r y

d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d I th in k i t w a s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o a p p r o v e d i t , I a m
n o t c e r t a i n , if t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e s h o w n t o m e I c a n c o n f ir m .

It was

either General Lazarus or Colonel Barnard who approved that advance.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I s e c u r e d t h e f u n d s C h a i r
a n d i n to t a l I h a d w i t h m e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s f o r b o t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h is w i f e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th e R 5 0 0 0 0 l o a n fr o m

M r J a n Ve n t e r a n d t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t I to o k a n a d v a n c e o n m y n a m e .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus then

in s t r u c t e d m e to g o a n d p a y f o r t h e t w o t i c k e ts , o n e f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i
a n d th e o n e f o r h is w i f e , h i s t h e n w if e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s W e n tz e l ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d i d y o u a c t u a l ly p u r c h a s e th e ti c k e t s ?

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s I d id .

I d id .

If I

r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y th e c o m b i n e d t o t a l f o r t h e t w o tic k e t s w a s a r o u n d
R 8 6 0 0 0 , th e r e a b o u t.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w C h a ir t h e c o p y o f t h e s e tic k e ts is v e r y

d i ff ic u l t t o r e a d b e c a u s e i t is a s c a n n e d c o p y a n d a s I i n d ic a t e d C h a ir
w e w ill tr y a n d g e t b e t te r c o p i e s f o r y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t o n w h a t p a g e is i t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t is p a g e 7 4 , a n d C o lo n e l N a id o o c a n y o u

c o n fir m , i t is a l m o s t i m p o s s ib l e t o s e e t h a t t h e s e a r e th e fli g h t t ic k e ts
t h a t y o u p u r c h a s e d , t h e e - ti c k e t r e c e ip t s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t i s n o t v e r y c l e a r,
b u t I d o s e e m y s ig n a t u r e a t t h e b o t t o m s o I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t t h e s e a r e
the documents.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t – h o w d i d y o u fe e l a b o u t h a v in g t h e

a d v a n c e f o r R 5 0 0 0 0 f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s ti c k e t i n y o u r n a m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e th a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o I s e e th a t y o u s a y
t h a t y o u w e n t t o th e Fl ig h t C e n tr e t o m a k e b o o k i n g s , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 96 of 156

The bookings were made

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a f e w – p r o v i s i o n a l b o o k i n g s C h a ir, t h a t w a s a f e w d a y s p r i o r t o t h e 3 r d
o f N o v e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u m a d e t h e m w i t h Fl ig h t C e n tr e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t h o w y o u w o u ld n o r m a l ly m a k e b o o k in g s i f i t

w a s a n o ff ic i a l tr ip o r d id C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a v e tr a v e l a g e n ts t h a t i t
u s e d f o r o ff ic ia l tr i p s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir fr o m w h a t I a m

g iv e n t o u n d e r s t a n d o n t h e o p e n a c c o u n t t h e y h a v e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s in
10

p l a c e , y o u n e e d to g e t a p p r o v a l a n d th e n e c e s s a r y p a p e r w o r k .

With

C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t h e y u s e d a c e r t a i n c o m p a n y, t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y
t e s ti fi e d t o , I t h i n k it . . . [i n d is t in c t ] Tr a v e l , w e h a v e n e v e r u s e d Fli g h t
C e n tr e p r i o r to t h is in c i d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u r e x p e r ie n c e a s a t t h a t ti m e

w a s t h a t w h e n e v e r b o o k i n g s h a d to b e m a d e , fl i g h t b o o k i n g s h a d t o b e
m a d e f o r o ff ic ia l tr i p s t h e y w e r e m a d e w i t h a

p a r tic u la r tr a v e l a g e n t

a n d n o t w i t h Fl ig h t C e n tr e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th a t is i n d e e d c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t i n u e M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l – is i t a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e t o a d j o u r n

o r a r e y o u h a p p y t o . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t u s a d j o u r n , i t i s a b o u t t w o m i n u te s t o o n e ,

le t u s a d jo u r n th e n , w e w il l a d j o u r n a n d r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c lo c k .
We adjourn.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
REGISTRAR:

Al l r i s e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready Colonel Naidoo?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e p r o b a b ly w i ll s t o p a t th r e e o ’c l o c k b u t I w i ll
– I w i ll d e c i d e a s w e g o a l o n g . L e t u s c o n t in u e .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l N a i d o o b e fo r e t h e
lu n c h

adjournment you

were

ta lk in g

about the

t ic k e ts

that you

p u r c h a s e d fr o m Fl i g h t C e n tr e f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h i s w if e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u s a y i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u w e r e

c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h i s a d v a n c e in y o u r n a m e .

C o u l d y o u ju s t e x p la in

that?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h is t r a n s a c t io n

m a d e m e u n c o m f o r t a b l e i n a s e n s e t h e – n o t s o m u c h i n my s ta t e m e n t I
s a y i t w a s – I k n e w I h a d – I k n e w i t w a s n o t a ll o w e d a l t h o u g h t h a t w a s
20

a c o n c e r n b u t t h e g r e a t e r c o n c e r n w a s a c t u a ll y t h e a m o u n t i t w a s q u i t e
a s u b s t a n t ia l a m o u n t a n d i t w a s o n m y n a m e .

And I feared that it

e v e n t u a l ly I w o u l d h e l d r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t a m o u n t . S o th a t w a s w h a t
made me feel uncomfortable.

A n d i n l i g h t o f t h a t C h a ir th a t s a m e

a ft e r n o o n I a m s p e a k i n g o f t h e 3 N o v e m b e r I w r o t e o u t a n o t e o f w h a t
h a d t r a n s p ir e d d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f th e d a y r e g a r d i n g th e a ir t ic k e ts

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a n d th e l o a n a n d I k e p t a c o p y o f i t a t m y h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s y o u c r e a t e d a r e c o r d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w h a t – o f h o w i t h a d c o m e a b o u t t h a t t h is a m o u n t
was taken out in your name?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D id y o u s h a r e i t w i t h a n y b o d y s u c h a s G e n e r a l
Lazarus?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t fo r y o u r s e l f t o r e m e m b e r …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t h a t g a v e r is e to it ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

This was a handwritten

c o p y t h a t I h a d m a d e a v a il a b l e f o r m y s e lf j u s t i n c a s e .

I gave that

h a n d w r i t t e n d o c u m e n t t o m y w i fe . S h e ty p e d i t a t h e r w o r k a n d t h o s e
t w o d o c u m e n ts t o g e t h e r w i th c o p i e s o f th e a i r tic k e t s I m a d e – I k e p t a t
m y h o m e j u s t fo r f u tu r e r e fe r e n c e i f t h e r e w a s a n y q u e r i e s r e g a r d i n g
20

t h is in c i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e y p a r t o f t h e b u n d le t h a t i s b e fo r e m e t o d a y ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h e y a r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e o k a y. Ms W e n t z e l s a y s t h e y a r e . O k a y ta k e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
it fr o m t h e r e M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e y a p p e a r i n – a t A n n e x u r e D G N 3 f r o m

p a g e s 7 7 to 8 0 it l o o k s lik e . Th e h a n d w r i t te n n o t e s t h a t y o u w r o t e d o
those appear from page 79 to 80?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s I c o n f ir m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e h a n d w r it t e n n o t e t h a t y o u t a lk a b o u t a p p e a r s

a t p a g e s 7 9 t o 8 0 o f t h e b u n d l e , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d I s e e th a t t h e c o p y m ig h t n o t b e s o l e g i b l e b u t

p a r t o f it i s le g ib le t o s o m e e x te n t . Is t h e p o s i t io n th a t o r d o e s i t n o t
s t a r t e a r li e r ? I s e e p a g e 7 9 s ta r t s w i th t h e w o r d a g r e e m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So that cannot be the

b e g in n i n g o f a s e n t e n c e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C h a ir y o u a r e a b s o lu t e l y c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll is t h e r e a p a g e m i s s i n g o r a f e w p a g e s m is s in g
Colonel Naidoo?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m – fr o m w h a t I
r e c a l l i t i s o n e p a g e C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is a – th e r e i s o n e p a g e m is s in g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t h is is t h e p a g e .

T h e r e is n o p a g e m is s in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I s e e i t s t a r ts w it h – i t l o o k s li k e a t 7 9 i t

s t a r ts fr o m w h a t w o u ld b e th e m id d l e o f a s e n te n c e . I t s a y s a g r e e m e n t
w a s s h o w n t o m e . S o t h e s e n t e n c e m u s t h a v e s t a r t e d – th e r e m u s t b e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a n o t h e r p a g e fr o m w h i c h i t s t a r t e d th is s e n t e n c e .

At page 78 you –

t h e r e i s a ti g h t …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a i r th is is o u r – I t h i n k
it is j u s t i n r e v e r s e . 8 0 s h o u ld c o m e f ir s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

It is just reverse 80

s h o u l d b e fir s t b e f o r e 7 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s W e n tz e l .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

8 0 is a c tu a lly t h e fi r s t

page 79 is the second page.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s h o u ld h a v e p ic k e d t h a t u p .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I s h o u l d h a v e C h a ir. Yo u a r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s h o u ld h a v e p ic k e d t h a t u p .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u a r e q u it e c o r r e c t i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n

p ic k e d u p . A n d a s – C h a ir w e h a v e a ls o h a d t h is ty p e d a g a i n b e c a u s e
e v e n th e c o p y th e t y p e d c o p y o f h is w if e is – i t i s a b s o l u te ly il l e g ib l e .
But…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k w h a t y o u s h o u ld d o t h e n is t o – I t h i n k o n a l l
20

o u r b u n d l e s C o l o n e l N a i d o o l e t u s – t h a t m is t a k e . W h a t w a s p a g e 8 0
should be page 79.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was page 79 should be page 80>
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d M s W e n tz e l a r r a n g e f o r n e w p a g e s w i t h r e d

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
p a g in a ti o n t o b e p r o v id e d t o r e p l a c e t h e s e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l d o t h a t S ir – C h a ir. C h a ir y o u s e e
t h a t i n t h e s ta t e m e n t C o l o n e l N a id o o y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 3 4 t h a t
t h e s e d o c u m e n t s w e r e s u b s e q u e n tly h a n d e d o v e r t o C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir w e w il l tr y a n d o b ta i n t h e o r i g i n a l

d o c u m e n ts fr o m C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e s o th a t b e t t e r c o p i e s c a n b e p r o v i d e d
a n d I w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y a r e p u t in t o t h e r e c o r d a n d i n to y o u r fi le .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Th a t is fi n e b u t t h is s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e

q u i te s o m e t i m e b a c k ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s i t is c o r r e c t a n d I a p o l o g is e i t s h o u l d

have been done.
CHAIRPERSON:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s s ta t e m e n t h a s b e e n a v a i la b l e f o r

q u i te s o m e t i m e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t h a s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n ti n u e .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

N o w C o lo n e l N a id o o d id y o u

t h e r e a f te r m e e t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a t t h e a ir p o r t w i th r e g a r d to th is tr i p a n d
if s o c o u l d y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s t o th e C h a ir ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s , y e s I d id m e e t

G e n e r a l M d l u l i . C h a ir o n t h e 7 t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d C o l o n e l N a i d o o M s W e n tz e l

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c a n y o u a l s o – c a n w e a ls o t r y a n d b e fa s t e r th a n w e a r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s b e fa s te r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

C o lo n e l N a id o o i s s u p p o s e d to k n o w t h e s e in c i d e n ts

a n d l e t u s t r y a n d b e f a s te r a n d m a k e t h e b e s t o f th e ti m e a v a i l a b le .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo …
CHAIRPERSON: I think he was about to answer your question.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I i n te r r u p t e d h i m .

C o lo n e l N a id o o p l e a s e g iv e

y o u r a n s w e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir o n t h e 7 N o v e m b e r
t h is w a s th e d a y G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s d u e t o fl y t o – t o C h i n a . G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s i n s tr u c te d m e to t a k e a f u r th e r R 1 0 0 0 0 .0 0 a d v a n c e i n m y
n a m e . I d i d s o . H e s a id t h i s – t h is w a s m o n e y f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li o r
in t e n d e d f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li f o r h is tr i p to C h i n a . I s u b s e q u e n tly g a v e –
m a n a g e d t o o b t a in t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 C h a ir. O n th e s a m e d a y 7 N o v e m b e r
I met General Mdluli at the airport and I gave him R10 000.00 –
R20 000.00 sorry – pardon me.
20

Chair this R20 000.00 was the

R10 000.00 advance that I had taken on m y name and if you remember
c o r r e c t ly C h a ir a s I te s ti fi e d t o p r e v io u s ly t h e r e w a s R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 t h a t I
h a d fo r t h e a ir tic k e t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

There was R13 000.00

p l u s m in u s t h e r e a b o u t I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t f ig u r e w a s le f t o v e r fr o m

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t h a t tr a n s a c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s – y o u s a i d t h a t R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s a l o a n fr o m

A t la n ti s M o to r s I t h i n k .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s f o r t h e ti c k e t – f o r M s M d l u li ’s ti c k e t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s f r o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t
w h ic h w a s f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s t ic k e t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o r r e c t – c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y tic k e t e n d u p c o s t in g l e s s t h a n t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

Both

t ic k e ts

were

R 8 6 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h e r e a b o u t p l u s m in u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e w a s s o m e m o n e y le f t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n d e e d y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d t h a t w a s a b o u t R 2 4 o r R 1 4 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja if it was R86 it was R14 000.00.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was R13 848.00 left

o v e r a f t e r p a y i n g f o r tw o ti c k e t s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f y o u h a d R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d t h e t w o ti c k e t s c o s t
R 8 6 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d t h e b a l a n c e c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n R 3 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R 1 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 C h a ir R 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh 13 – 13?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . R 1 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y I th o u g h t y o u s a id R 3 0 I a m s o r r y. O k a y y e s .

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e ti c k e ts w e r e e x a c t ly
t h e a m o u n t w a s R 8 6 1 5 2 .0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And the remaining

b a l a n c e w a s – t h a t w a s l e f t o v e r fr o m t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 w a s R 1 3 8 4 8 . 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is i s t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 . 0 0

t h a t I t o o k fr o m t h i s a m o u n t o f t h e R 1 3 8 4 8 .0 0 a d d e d to t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 . 0 0
a d v a n c e w h ic h g a v e m e R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 in t o ta l.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th is is t h e a m o u n t

h a n d e d o v e r to G e n e r a l M d l u l i fo r h i s t r i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e a ir p o r t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I m e t h i m a t t h e a ir p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t a t O R Ta m b o a i r p o r t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s is w h e n h is w i f e w a s
w i t h h i m . T h is is w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n f o r me d m e t h a t h e is t a k i n g h is
20

w i f e t o v is it t h e ir d a u g h t e r w h o i s s tu d y i n g in C h i n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u k n o w h i s w i fe p r i o r to t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you met her?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I m e t h e r b e c a u s e I h a d
p r e v i o u s ly g o n e o n s e v e r a l o c c a s io n t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s p r i v a t e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
r e s id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o G e n e r a l M d l u li to ld y o u t h a t h e w a s t a k i n g

h is w if e t o C h i n a t o – f o r t h e m t o v is i t t h e i r d a u g h t e r w h o w a s s t u d y i n g
there?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d w a s t h e r e a n y th i n g e ls e t h a t w a s

d is c u s s e d a t th e a ir p o r t b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

Did you ever ask why General Mdluli was not

t h e o n e w h o w o u ld s i g n d o c u m e n ts i f m o n e y – i f h e n e e d e d m o n e y f o r
h is o w n p u r p o s e s a n d w h y y o u h a d t o s ig n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y i t h a d to b e th e a d v a n c e h a d t o b e i n y o u r n a m e
o r s o m e b o d y e l s e ’s n a m e C o lo n e l B a r n a r d o r s o o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l M d ll u l i

n e v e r t o o k a n y a d v a n c e s o n h is n a m e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever know why – why that was so?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t s a y f o r s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e n e v e r t o o k a n y a d v a n c e s i n h is n a m e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e w i ll b e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t r e fl e c ts t h a t h e

t o o k a d v a n c e s f r o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t a s fa r a s y o u k n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s i t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o i n i t ia t e d a s f a r a s y o u

k n o w t h a t w h e n e v e r G e n e r a l M d lu li n e e d e d m o n e y t h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
w o u ld t a k e t h e m o n e y o u t o f h is – i n h is n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e M s W e n t z e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o h o w d i d y o u r e c o n c i le th e

a d v a n c e o f R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t a k e n t o p u r c h a s e G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s t ic k e t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir in i ti a l ly w h e n I p a i d
f o r t h e ti c k e ts t h e t ic k e ts w e r e p r i n te d o n o n e in v o ic e w h i c h w a s t h e
t o t a l o f t h e t w o t ic k e ts w h i c h a n a m o u n t o f – w h i c h a m o u n te d t o
R86 000.00.
10

on my name.

R 8 6 1 5 2 . 0 0 b u t th e a c t u a l a d v a n c e w a s o n ly R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0
I s u b s e q u e n tly w e n t b a c k t o – to F l ig h t C e n tr e s o t h a t

t h e y c o u ld p r i n t m e a n o th e r in v o ic e f o r ju s t o n e ti c k e t b e c a u s e o n ly o n
– I o n ly h a d r e c o n c i le o n e tic k e t w h i c h w a s a g a in s t t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
R e m e m b e r t h e o t h e r R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s a lo a n o r s u p p o s e d ly a l o a n . S o
t h is is h o w I c l o s e d t h a t – o r r e c o n c i le d t h a t a d v a n c e b y a s k i n g F li g h t
C e n tr e to g e n e r a te a n e w i n v o i c e – a fr e s h i n v o i c e f o r o n e tic k e t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And is that the document Annexure DGN5?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h a t p a g e is t h a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: At page 91.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

One second.

Ye s .

C a n I ta k e y o u b a c k t o t h e

document that you prepared that you said you prepared or statement or
n o t e t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d to h a v e a r e c o r d o f h o w i t c a m e a b o u t th a t y o u
took out money in your name that you had to give to General Mdluli.
T h a t i s t h e d o c u m e n t s ta r ti n g a t p a g e 7 9 .

I t m i g h t b e d i ffic u l t f o r

someone else to read that document but maybe because you are the

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a u t h o r y o u m i g h t b e a b l e to . Ar e y o u a b l e t o r e a d i t o r o n l y p a r ts o f i t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I w ill t r y C h a i r u p t o a

p o i n t b e c a u s e p a r t o f i t i s q u i t e – i t is n o t v e r y c l e a r s o I w i ll tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t f i n e . M a y b e y o u w i ll – y o u d o n o t n e e d
t o r e a d n o w b u t d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t w h a t i s – w h a t y o u r e c o r d e d o n t h e
n o t e is a l o n g t h e li n e s th a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t in t e r m s o f h o w i t
c a m e a b o u t t h a t y o u t o o k t h a t m o n e y in y o u r n a m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Okay so when we get a clearer copy it should just

r e fl e c t w h a t y o u h a v e t o ld m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o l o n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u

p l e a s e t e l l th e C h a i r a b o u t th e o v e r s e a s tr i p t o S i n g a p o r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is a ls o – t h is tr i p
w a s u n d e r t a k e n i n 2 0 0 9 . I t h in k i t w a s t h e 2 0 t h N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . I t w a s
a b o u t t w o w e e k s a f te r G e n e r a l M d l u li r e tu r n e d fr o m C h i n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e – o n e s e c o n d . M s W e n tz e l j u s t r e m in d m e fr o m
ti m e t o ti m e w h e r e – o n p a g e y o u a r e s o t h a t I k e e p a g e n e r a l tr a c k ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Ye s c e r t a i n ly C h a ir.

It

is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e – w h e r e is t h a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It is page 10 of the

s t a te m e n t fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 4 1 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. C o n ti n u e C o l o n e l N a id o o .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s w a s a b o u t t w o
w e e k s a f te r G e n e r a l M d l u li r e t u r n e d fr o m C h i n a o n th e 2 0 N o v e m b e r.
C o l o n e l B a r n a r d , C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s w i f e , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h is w i fe ,
C o l o n e l M ir a n d a Ve n t e r, G e n e r a l M d l u l i . C h a ir m y s t a t e m e n t r e a d s
G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s w i fe b u t a t t h a t s ta g e i t w a s n o t h is w i fe . S h e w a s h i s
g ir l fr i e n d i f I c a n c a l l i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

A n d W a r r a n t O ff ic e r

G o d f r e y M a w a i [ ? ] a n d my s e l f tr a v e l l e d to S i n g a p o r e . C h a ir th e r e a s o n
10

g iv e n t o m e – t h i s w a s a c c o r d i n g t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w e n t o n th is – o r w a s to g o o n t h is tr i p to b u y e q u i p m e n t –
s p y e q u ip m e n t f o r t h e u n it .
CHAIRPERSON:

To b u y s o m e e q u i p m e n t f o r th e o p e r a ti o n s o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e r e y o u g iv e n a n y m o r e p a r t ic u l a r s a s t o

e x a c tl y w h a t w a s to b e b o u g h t o r n o t r e a lly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e r e y o u t o l d w h y t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y o f y o u
20

who needed to go?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is – n o t – t h a t –
n o I w a s n o t g iv e n a n y r e a s o n b u t I t h i n k I j u s t n e e d t o p o i n t o u t o n e
m a t t e r w h ic h i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t. I m y s e lf w a s i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ffi c e
p r i o r to u s f ly in g to S in g a p o r e a n d F M 0 9 w a s a ls o p r e s e n t t h e r e .

I

e n q u ir e d fr o m h i m – C h a ir I e n q u ir e d – I e n q u ir e d o n t w o fr o n t s . O n e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
w a s – I a s k e d h i m w h y a m I g o i n g o n t h is t r ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d t h e s e c o n d – th e

s e c o n d fr o n t w a s w h y a m I fl y i n g o n t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t
b e c a u s e o th e r m e m b e r s w e r e f ly in g o n a n o p e n a c c o u n t . S o i t s e e m e d
s tr a n g e to m e t h a t I w a s fl y i n g o n t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t . S o t h e s e
a r e t h e t w o – t w o p o i n ts th a t I b r o u g h t t o h is a t t e n t i o n a n d h e to ld m e
t h a t i s – t h a t w a s th e i n s tr u c t io n o f G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d I d i d n o t – I d i d
not take it further than that.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o w e r e y o u t h e o n ly o n e w h o w a s b e i n g p a i d –

w h o s e tr a v e l li n g w a s b e i n g p a i d f o r fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r th e r e w e r e t w o

m e m b e r s fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e w h o tr a v e l le d o n th is tr i p o n t h e
S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t . I t w a s m y s e lf a n d C o l o n e l M a r a n d a Ve n t e r t h e
o th e r c i v il i a n m e m b e r w h o t r a v e ll e d o n t h i s a c c o u n t w a s G e n e r a l
M d lu li ’s g i r l fr ie n d Th e r e s a Ly o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u r w i fe w a s a l s o t r a v e ll in g o n t h is S e c r e t

S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir i t i s n o t – i t w a s

n o t m y w i fe i t w a s C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s w i f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d y o u r w i fe a l s o w e n t a l o n g .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Ye s O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : P a r d o n m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please continue Ms Wentzel.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D i d y o u m a k e a ir b o o k in g s fo r t h is tr i p

Colonel Naidoo?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s I d id .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d c o u l d y o u ju s t e x p l a i n th a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I t h in k i t w a s i n a w e e k

p r i o r t o u s tr a v e ll i n g . W e tr a v e l l e d o n th e 2 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . I m a d e
b o o k i n g s a t A f r i c a n I m p r i n t Tr a v e l fo r T Ly o n s , C o lo n e l Ve n t e r a n d
m y s e l f . I a ls o m a d e b o o k in g s f o r S a n d r a L a z a r u s t h i s is G e n e r a l M d lu li
– p a r d o n m e – t h is is G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ w i f e a n d I t h i n k t h a t o f J u a n i t a
10

B a r n a r d w h ic h is C o lo n e l B a r n a r d ’s w i f e .

C h a ir I d o m e n t i o n i n m y

s t a te m e n t p o i n t 4 4 I p o i n t o u t t h a t T Ly o n s w a s G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s
g ir l fr i e n d a t t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. I hope everybody at the back does
h e a r. Ev e r y b o d y d o e s h e a r ? O k a y a lr i g h t . S o – s o th e b o o k i n g s t h a t
y o u m a d e s o m e w e r e m a d e u n d e r t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t b u t o t h e r s
w e r e m a d e u n d e r t h e o p e n a c c o u n t , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e o n e s t h a t w e r e m a d e u n d e r t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e

A c c o u n t w e r e y o u r a n d w h o e ls e ’s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e r e i s tw o p a r ts

t o t h i s . T h e b o o k in g s – th e b o o k i n g s w e r e i n i t ia ll y m a d e fo r – it w a s
m y s e l f , C o lo n e l Ve n te r, T Ly o n s , J u a n i t a B a r n a r d a n d S a n d r a L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

B u t t h e a c tu a l p a y m e n t

fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t t h o s e w e r e p r o v is i o n a l b o o k i n g s t h e
n a m e s I m e n ti o n e d n o w C h a ir b u t th e a c t u a l p a y m e n t fo r t h o s e th a t
tr a v e l le d o n t h is a c c o u n t fr o m th e S e c r e t – o r w a s p a id fr o m th e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t w a s m y s e l f , C o l o n e l Ve n te r a n d T Ly o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : I d o n o t k n o w h o w – h o w
J u a n i ta B a r n a r d a n d S a n d r a L a z a r u s ’ t ic k e t w a s p a i d fo r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s . Th e – I th in k y o u m e n ti o n e d t w o tr a v e l a g e n t s

t h a t w e r e u s e d f o r th is p u r p o s e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : O n e C h a ir i t w a s A fr ic a n
I m p r in t Tr a v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th a t t h e n o r m a l tr a v e l a g e n t t h a t w a s – w a s t h a t
t h e tr a v e l a g e n t t h a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e u s e d to u s e w h e n tr i p s w e r e –
o ffic i a l tr i p s w e r e u n d e r t a k e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is a n o t h e r c o m p a n y
C h a ir. T h a t is W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l . Th is i s A f r ic a n I m p r i n t Tr a v e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – b u t w a s t h is p a r ti c u l a r c o m p a n y t r a v e l a g e n c y

d i d C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e u s e i t fr o m t i m e t o t i m e o r a s f a r a s y o u k n o w
20

t h is w a s th e fir s t t i m e i t w a s u s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s f a r a s I k n o w th is i s
t h e fi r s t t i m e w e u s e d t h i s p a r ti c u l a r c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h e i n v o ic e p a g e t o A fr ic a n I m p r i n t Tr a v e l –
does that appear at Annexure DGN6 page 94?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n tz e l y o u a r e g o in g t o c o n fu s e h e r. R e m e m b e r
w h e n w e s ta r t e d o n Fr i d a y w e s a id y o u w il l n o t m e n ti o n I t h in k t h e
a l p h a b e ts b e f o r e t h e n u m b e r. Yo u j u s t m e n ti o n t h e n u m b e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u a r e c o n fu s i n g m e a s w e ll .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Just mention the page.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 94, is that correct?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h e n y o u w e n t o n t h is t r i p w h o w e n t

business class and who went economy class?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l M d l u li ,

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d T L y o n s fl e w b u s in e s s c la s s .

Colonel Barnard,

m y s e l f , C o l o n e l Ve n t e r, C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s w if e a n d W a r r a n t O ffi c e r
G o d f r e y M a w a i[ ? ] fl e w e c o n o m y c l a s s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h e n y o u w e r e in S in g a p o r e d id y o u

in d e e d g o p u r c h a s e e q u ip m e n t f o r C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir w e d i d

p u r c h a s e e q u i p m e n t o v e r t w o d a y s . If I c a n j u s t g iv e s o m e in s i g h t i n to
20

t h a t ? C h a i r t h i s – li k e I s a id t h i s w a s d o n e o v e r tw o d a y s b u t in t h e t w o
d a y s I t h in k i t w a s m o s t t w o h o u r s t h a t w e s p e n t a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r s h o p
o v e r tw o d a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

S o w e b a s ic a l ly f o u r

h o u r s in to t a l . T h is – i t is a n e le c t r o n i c s m a ll C h a ir. I t is n o t a c o v e r t

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
shop.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : W h e r e y o u h a v e t o m a k e
a n a p p o i n t m e n t it is li k e h o w y o u a n d I w o u l d g o t o a n o r m a l s h o p t o
p u r c h a s e a n i t e m e x c e p t t h i s w a s a n e l e c t r o n ic s m a l l o n ly d e a li n g w i t h
e l e c tr o n ic s t u ff a n d n o t h i n g e ls e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : W e g o t t o t h e s h o p . I d id
n o t p a y to o m u c h o f a t te n ti o n a s to w h a t w a s b e in g p u r c h a s e d b e c a u s e
10

t h is w a s n o t m y a r e a o f e x p e r t is e C h a ir. B u t I d o k n o w t h a t w e w e r e a t
t h is s h o p a t – f o r o v e r t w o d a y s , t w o h o u r s p r o b a b ly m o s t a t a t i m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And then what did you do during the rest of

t h e tr ip ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w e w e r e t h e r e fr o m
the 20th to the 29t h. The rest of the time exc ept for thes e – over thes e
t w o d a y s p r o b a b l y t w o h o u r s a d a y t h e r e s t o f th e t i m e w e s p e n t
s h o p p in g a n d s ig h ts e e i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a l l in a ll a b o u t h o w m a n y w e r e y o u ?

A b o u t s ix o r

eight?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s e i g h t I th i n k
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t e ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w e r e y o u a b l e t o t e ll w h o in t h e w h o le g r o u p

r e a l ly m a y h a v e b e e n n e c e s s a r y f o r p u r p o s e s o f b u y i n g w h a t e v e r

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
e q u ip m e n t n e e d e d to b e b o u g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir i n m y v i e w th is t r i p
was not necessary at all.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I s a y th a t b e c a u s e i f – if
s o m e b o d y g o t o n t o t h e i n t e r n e t c o u l d h a v e p u r c h a s e d th is o v e r t h e
in t e r n e t a n d p a id f o r i t v i a E F T a n d h a d i t c o u r i e r e d t o S o u th A fr ic a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

scenario.

T h a t is t h e b e s t c a s e

Th e w o r s t c a s e s c e n a r io is t h a t a m e m b e r fr o m t e c h n i c a l

s u p p o r t u n it fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e s h o u l d h a v e g o n e o v e r t o p u r c h a s e
t h is v e h i c l e – t h i s e q u i p m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w a s t h e e q u i p m e n t a c t u a ll y p u r c h a s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Ye s it w a s p u r c h a s e d

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u s a i d t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g c o v e r t a b o u t i t
r e a l ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d id y o u C o l o n e l N a i d o o p u r c h a s e

a n y th in g o n t h i s tr i p >
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : P r i o r t o m e g o i n g o n t h is
tr i p C h a ir m y s is t e r a s k e d i f I c o u ld p u r c h a s e a c a m e r a fo r h e r. I f I c a n
r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly I in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t I w a n t e d t o b u y –
t h is i s w h i le i n S in g a p o r e C h a ir.

I i n fo r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t I

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
w a n t e d t o b u y a c a m e r a fo r m y s is t e r.

H e i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t w e

s h o u l d p u r c h a s e i t u s i n g S S A f u n d s a n d w e w il l s o r t i t o u t w h e n w e g e t
back

home.

I

purchased

th e

camera

C h a ir.

The

value

was

a p p r o x i m a te ly R 5 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d o n m y r e tu r n I g a v e i t to m y s i s t e r. B o t h
General Lazarus and Colonel Barnard approved the funding for this
purchase.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h a t la s t s e n t e n c e p l e a s e ? B o t h G e n e r a l ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Lazarus and Colonel

B a r n a r d t h e y a p p r o v e d t h e f u n d i n g fo r t h e p u r c h a s e .
10

M e a n in g t h e y

w e r e a w a r e o f m e u s i n g t h e c a r d t o p u r c h a s e th is p a r t ic u l a r c a m e r a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u s a i d th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s a i d th a t y o u c o u l d
u s e t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t f u n d s a n d t h is w o u ld b e s o r t e d o u t
w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k . Wa s i t s o r te d o u t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t s o r t e d o u t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s f a r a s I k n o w th is w a s
– t h i s p a r ti c u l a r c a m e r a w a s c a p t u r e d o n th e s y s t e m a s b e l o n g in g t o
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s b u t i t w a s a c t u a l l y i n t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f y o u r

s is t e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And being used by her?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w o u ld t h e r e c o r d s r e fl e c t t h a t i t is – it w a s a n

a s s e t b e lo n g i n g t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

T h a t is – t h a t i s w h a t I

a m g i v e n to u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h e n y o u c a m e t h r o u g h th e a i r p o r t w a s t h e

e q u ip m e n t d e c l a r e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li d i d n o t w a n t c u s t o m s t o k n o w w h a t w e w e r e
b r i n g i n g b a c k i n to th e c o u n tr y. G e n e r a l M d l u l i t h e n m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s
w i t h h i s c o n t a c t s a t t h e a i r p o r t a n d I a m s p e a k i n g a b o u t O R Ta m b o
10

A ir p o r t t h a t w e a s a g r o u p b y p a s s c u s to m s .
S o a s a r e s u l t o f th is a r r a n g e m e n t n o th i n g w a s d e c l a r e d a t
customs.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: How was the equipment purchased?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s

w i f e w o r k s a t a n A b s a B r a n c h in P r e t o r ia . S h e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r
t w o c a r d s - tw o c r e d i t c a r d s t o b e is s u e d . O n e w h ic h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d
s ig n e d f o r h i m - f o r i t h i m s e l f a n d t h e o th e r o n e w a s o n m y n a m e .
T h e s e t w o c r e d i t c a r d s w e r e p r e lo a d e d w i t h R 1 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 e a c h .
20

I a s s u m e th a t th is f u n d s w o u l d h a v e b e e n o r t h e s e f u n d s
w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r r a n g e d b y C o l o n e l B a r n a r d t o g iv e t o h is w if e t o b e
p r e l o a d e d o n to t h e s e t w o c r e d i t c a r d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well you …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s W e n t z e l . A f t e r y o u c a m e b a c k fr o m t h i s

Page 117 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
tr i p a t t h e la t e s t a f te r y o u h a d c o m e b a c k I t a k e it th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e
r e fl e c t e d a n d y o u w o u l d h a v e r e f le c t e d a s t o w h y y o u w e r e t a k e n a l o n g .
D i d y o u r e f le c t o n t h a t a n d c a m e t o s o m e c o n c l u s io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir l ik e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Because from what you say you clearly were not

n e e d e d f o r - f o r m a k in g a n y d e c is io n s r e l a ti n g t o th e p u r c h a s e o f th e o f t h e e q u i p m e n t a n d - a n d y o u h a v e s a i d th a t th e e q u ip m e n t a c t u a ll y
c o u l d h a v e b e e n o b t a in e d w i t h o u t t h e tr i p . D id y o u tr y a n d r e fl e c t o n
w h y y o u w e r e t a k e n a lo n g ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir.

L ik e - l ik e I

s a i d i n t h e b e g i n n i n g I - I p r o te s t e d a l r e a d y t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h y I
w a s - w h y I w a s g o i n g o n th is tr ip .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So I did not take it

f u r th e r t h a n th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: What did he say when you protested?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e …
CHAIRPERSON: General Lazarus.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

He

said

it

was

an

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d I m u s t c o m p ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Assuming that that was true. Did it occur to you that
m a y b e y o u w e r e b e m a d e to b e p a r t o f th e tr i p s o th a t i f t h e r e a r e a n y
p r o b le m s y o u w o u l d n o t - y o u w o u l d n o t te l l?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
C h a ir.

Page 118 of 156

Th a t

is

a

p o s s i b i li t y

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

B e f o r e t h i s ti m e h a d y o u a lr e a d y y o u r s e lf

s t a r t e d e n g a g in g in a n y i ll e g a l tr a n s a c ti o n s .

Yo u - y o u t e s ti f ie d o n

Fr id a y th a t y o u a d m i tt e d t o t h e H a w s t h a t y o u h a d p u t t h r o u g h a f a l s e y o u h a d p u t th r o u g h f a ls e c la i m s r u n n in g i n to a b o u t R 1 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . H a d
t h is h a p p e n e d b y t h i s t i m e o r h a d i t n o t h a p p e n e d y e t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is w a s b e fo r e - t h i s

w a s b e f o r e t h e t i m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s b e f o r e t h is tr i p ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h is - th a t is c o r r e c t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o y o u h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d i t b e fa ir to s a y b y th is ti m e y o u w e r e r e a ll y

p a r t o f w h a te v e r w r o n g w a s ta k i n g p la c e a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
q u e s t io n .

C o l o n e l N a i d o o i n r e la t io n t o t h e C h a i r ’s

W i th r e g a r d t o t h e r e c o n c il ia t io n o f t h e a m o u n t th a t w a s

p r o v i d e d t o y o u t o p u r c h a s e t h e t ic k e ts f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h is w i f e
t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 .
20

Yo u s a i d a f t e r b u y i n g t h e a i r t ic k e ts y o u h a d

R13 848,00 spare …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Of

which

you

gave

to

R10 000,00

to

G e n e r a l M d l u l i . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
t h e - t h e p r e v io u s tr ip - t h e C h i n a tr i p ?

Page 119 of 156

S o w e a r e g o in g b a c k t o

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I a m j u s t - s o r r y. I f y o u c a n h a v e r e g a r d
to page 9 paragraph 37.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . I a m t h e r e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So of the 13 848 you gave 10 000 of that

r e m a in in g t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i.

W h a t h a p p e n e d t o th e b a l a n c e o f

R3 848,00?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h is b a l a n c e o f

R 3 8 4 8 , 0 0 w h ic h w a s i n c a s h I k e p t i n m y b a g f o r s e v e r a l w e e k s . W h e n
n o o n e in q u ir e d a b o u t it I u s e d i t f o r m y p e r s o n a l u s e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o if y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o t h e

d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 0 0 A n n e x u r e D G N 7 , A n n e x u r e 7 . T h e s e a r e - r e fl e c t
tr a n s a c ti o n h is t o r y.

Th e o n e a t p a g e 1 0 0 w h e r e t h e c a r d h o ld e r is

r e fl e c t e d a s H e i n B a r n a r d a n d t h e o n e a t p a g e 1 0 2 w h e r e t h e a c c o u n t
is u n d e r y o u r n a m e - N a id o o .
Is t h a t a f a ir r e f le c ti o n o f t h e s p e n d i n g o n t h o s e c r e d i t c a r d s
during the Singapore trip?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I d o n o t r e m e m b e r

a l l o f th e - o f a l l t h e tr a n s a c t io n s b u t y e s t h e - t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s a r e o n
20

t h e c a r d t h a t I u s e d . M y n a m e r e fl e c ts o n t h e to p l e f t c o r n e r a n d t h e
p r e v i o u s o n e o f C o l o n e l B a r n a r d . S o y e s I w o u l d c o n f ir m t h e s e - t h e s e
d o c u m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I t h i n k M s W e n t z e l y o u m u s t d r a w to o u r

a tt e n ti o n w h ic h t r a n s a c t io n s fa ll w i t h i n t h e d a y s th a t h e w a s i n
Singapore.

Page 120 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D o t h e - t h e s e t r a n s a c ti o n s f a ll b e t w e e n t h e

ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e i n S i n g a p o r e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

R e m e m b e r w h a t w e r e t h e d a t e s f o r y o u r S in g a p o r e

tr i p ? H o w … ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, w e - w e le f t o n

2 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d r e t u r n e d o n 2 9 N o v e m b e r i n t h a t s a m e y e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: So was it about 10 days?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e r e a b o u t . N i n e d a y s .
CHAIRPERSON: Nine days/10 days?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N i n e d a y s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s q u i te a l o n g ti m e a n d y o u s a i d th a t - a t t h e
shop where you were supposed to buy the equipment you spent about
f o u r h o u r s a ll i n a l l o v e r t w o d a y s - t w o d a y s . E a c h d a y is - t w o h o u r s
e a c h d a y. I s t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e ti m e y o u w e r e j u s t h a v in g a

good time?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e s ta t e e x p e n s e ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
m u s t c o n fir m .

Ye s .

S o t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s - w e ll M s W e n tz e l y o u

D o t h e y f a ll w it h in t h o s e d a t e s w h e n h e w a s i n

Singapore?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or he could - if he can see.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e c a n c o n f ir m a l s o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s f a ll

w i t h i n th e d a t e s th a t y o u w e r e i n Si n g a p o r e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o

c o n fir m t h e d a t e s fir s t . I a m n o t s u r e i f i t i s t h e 2 0 t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k l o o k a t t h e d a t e s Ms W e n tz e l …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ja.

I t h in k t h a t - t h a t

w o u ld b e v e r y …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n t z e l a n d t e ll h e r t h e f ir s t tr a n s a c ti o n o n p a g e is i t 1 0 2 ? Is t h a t h i s o n e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H is o n e s t a r ts a t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H is i s a t 1 0 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Te l l h i m th e - t h e d a te o f t h e fi r s t tr a n s a c ti o n

t h e r e a n d th e d a t e o f t h e la s t tr a n s a c ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o th e fir s t tr a n s a c t io n is 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9

…
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : J a .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e l a s t is th e - w e l l i t i s - i t i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Are the dates upside down?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t h i n k i t is g o i n g t h r o u g h a t a d i ff e r e n t d a t e .
Yo u w il l s e e i t i s - i t is 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . S o it s t a r ts o n t h e 1 8 t h a n d
then goes up to 27 November 2009.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

T h e d o c u m e n t - t h e p a g e s e e ms t o b e s t a r ti n g

Page 122 of 156

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
with the last …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s a c t io n a n d e n d i n g w i t h t h e fir s t tr a n s a c ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w o u ld m e a n t h a t i t r e fl e c ts t h a t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s
c o v e r e d b y i t s ta r t o n 1 8 /11 / 2 0 0 9 …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d g o u p t o 2 7 /11 / 2 0 0 9 b u t y o u s a i d t h a t y o u l e f t f o r
S i n g a p o r e o n t h e 2 0 t h . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e tr a n s a c t io n s b e f o r e t h e 2 0 t h w o u ld t h e y h a v e

b e e n c o n n e c t e d w i t h th is tr i p o r n o t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair

that

would

p r o b a b ly b e t h e p r e l o a d e d I s p o k e o f - t h e p r e l o a d e d a m o u n t t h a t w a s
in it i a l ly l o a d e d o n to t h i s c a r d b e f o r e w e le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ar r a n g e m e n ts

were

made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o t h a t f a l ls o u ts i d e o f

t h e t i m e p e r i o d th a t w e w e r e i n S i n g a p o r e .

S o t h is - t h is d a t e w ill

e x p l a i n w h a t I h a v e t e s t if i e d t o e a r l i e r. T h a t m o n e y w a s p r e l o a d e d o n t o
e a c h o f t h e s e c a r d . I f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 1 0 2 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 123 of 156

T h e a c tu a l a m o u n t i n

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
US$13 182,53.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e a m o u n t o n t h e fir s t d a y o n t h e 1 8 t h . Is th a t
correct?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e b o t to m .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O n t h e 1 8 t h . Th is is t h e

preloaded amount I speak of.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t a t th e t o p t h e r e i t s a y s lo c a l c u r r e n c y b u t a t
t h e b o t to m i t - i t r e f l e c ts U S D r a th e r t h a n R a n d s . Is t h a t - c a n y o u s e e
10

that or are we …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n d i ff e r e n t c o l u m n s ?

Yo u k n o w t h e c o l u m n w r i t te n

lo c a l c u r r e n c y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e l o c a l

c u r r e n c y o f S i n g a p o r e a n d i t a ls o r e f le c ts t h e s a m e a m o u n t in U S
D o ll a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w a s l o c a l c u r r e n c y o f S i n g a p o r e n o t o f S o u th
A fr ic a ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

S S G D i s th e S i n g a p o r e

c u r r e n c y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

U S D w o u l d b e th e U S

D o ll a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

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S o C h a ir i f y o u lo o k a t

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
t h e b o t t o m I a m r e fe r r i n g t o th e l a s t c o l u m n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 1 8 / 11 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 2 0 0 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t s a y s Tr a v e le x R e t a i l

C a r d W h iz z U S $ 1 3 1 8 2 , 5 3 . T h i s is t h e - t h is is t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: The amount?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Pr e l o a d e d a m o u n t t h a t

w a s l o a d e d o n to e a c h o f th e s e c a r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is U S $ 1 3 1 8 2 ,0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t b e a b l e t o - y o u m i g h t h a v e r e c o ll e c t io n o f
h o w - a t - a t th a t ti m e h o w m u c h t h a t w a s i n R a n d s m o r e o r le s s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I c a n r e c o ll e c t i t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n 1 0 0 0 0 0 b e c a u s e th a t i s w h a t I s i g n e d fo r o n th e c a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: 100 000?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

When you came back from Singapore how much of

t h a t R 1 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 h a d b e e n u s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I - I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir. I
c a n n o t r e c a l l.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o - d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n y t h i n g l e f t o n
the amount that had been loaded?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I - I c a n n o t r e c a ll C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a r e y o u a b le to - t o s a y t h a t w h il e y o u m ig h t n o t
r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u u s e d th e w h o l e a m o u n t y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y t h a t y o u
must have used more than 80 percent of the amount or more than 90
p e r c e n t o f t h e a m o u n t o r y o u n o t a b le t o s a y th a t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I would say so Chair

b u t I c a n c o n fi r m i f t h e d o c u m e n t s a r e s h o w n t o m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y b u t y o u r - y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n i s th a t y o u m u s t
h a v e u s e d m o r e t h a n 8 0 p e r c e n t o f th e a m o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r M s W e n tz e l o n t h e s e

tr a n s a c ti o n s y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o m a k e t h e t o ta l o f w h a t w a s u s e d ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I h a v e n o t b u t I w ill d o i t o v e r n i g h t f o r y o u

C h a ir a n d I w i ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll t e l l y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t is i m p o r t a n t j u s t t o g e t - g i v e u s t h e p ic t u r e
20

o f h o w m u c h w a s s p e n t . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l a d d r e s s t h a t o v e r n i g h t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t

w a s y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th C o lo n e l L a z a r u s - I m e a n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t . W e h a v e d e a l t Ms W e n tz e l
w i t h t h e - w i th p a g e 1 0 2 w h ic h a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n r e l a te s t o
Colonel Naidoo. Maybe …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o m e b o d y e ls e o r j u s t h i m a l o n e .

Th e r e is t h e

o th e r o n e t h a t r e la t e s t o o t h e r m e m b e r s o f th e d e l e g a ti o n . D o y o u n o t
w a n t to d e a l w i th t h a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s .

We can deal with that.

I was thinking

t h a t I w o u l d d e a l w i th it t o m o r r o w w h e n I h a v e h a d a c h a n c e a l s o s o
t h a t I c a n a d d t h is a l l u p a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . M a y b e d e a l w i th it …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Deal with that.
CHAIRPERSON:

D e a l w i th i t i n s o fa r a s y o u a r e a b l e to a n d a ll t h a t

m i g h t b e le f t i s j u s t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Just the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ig u r e s , j a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e q u a n tu m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e w e m o v e o n to s o m e t h i n g e ls e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Colonel Naidoo could you have a look at the

document at page 100.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O k a y. I a m t h e r e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a t p a g e 1 0 1 t h i s a ls o s e e m s to b e

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
r e fl e c t e d b a c k w a r d s . S o y o u w i ll s e e t h a t o n 1 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t h e r e
is a n a m o u n t o f U S $ 1 3 1 5 2 , 5 3 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i t i s v e r y c lo s e t o th e a m o u n t t h a t w a s

lo a d e d o n t o t h e c a r d u n d e r y o u r n a m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u r s w a s 1 3 1 8 2 , 5 3 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t is p r o b a b ly b e c a u s e I

s e e i t is o v e r - i t is d o n e o n t w o s e p a r a te d a y s . S o p r o b a b ly w i th t h e
10

exchange rate.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t i s a v a r i a ti o n i n t h e

a m o u n ts .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And so with that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r w i s e - I a m s o r r y. O t h e r w is e it w a s m e a n t t o b e
the same amount?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It was 100 000 each

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o t h a t - th a t w o u l d

p r o b a b ly a c c o u n t f o r t h e s m a ll v a r i a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Because it was done

o v e r tw o d a y s . O n e c a r o n t h e 1 9 t h a n d t h e o t h e r o n e o n th e 1 8 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n th e t r a n s a c t io n s t h a t a r e th e n

r e fl e c t e d u p u n t il 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 w o u ld t h o s e r e f l e c t tr a n s a c t i o n s
t h a t to o k p l a c e d u r i n g t h e tr i p t o S in g a p o r e w h il e y o u w e r e o v e r s e a s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I - I j u s t w a n t t o lo o k a t

t h e d a t e s q u i c k l y. C h a ir I c a n c o n fir m t h a t a ll o f t h e s e p u r c h a s e r s w e r e
m a d e w h i l e w e w e r e o n t h is tr ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

In

terms

of

the

ti m e f r a m e s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O r t h e d a te s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c t io n a s to w h e th e r
they too would have used no less than 80 percent of the amount to say
t h e le a s t o r is - is th a t s o m e t h i n g y o u d i d n o t a p p ly y o u r m in d t o ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. I w i ll h a v e to I w il l h a v e to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o h a v e a lo o k ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I h a v e to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L o o k a t h is d o c u m e n ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A ll t h e ti m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d - I m e a n C o l o n e l N a id o o

c o u l d y o u e x p l a in w h a t y o u r r e la t io n s h i p w a s w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d
General Lazarus?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

I

worked

very

c lo s e ly o v e r a l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e w it h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . L ik e I t e s ti f ie d
t o e a r l ie r.

H e w a s t h e o n e w h o h a d in i t ia lly o r g a n i s e d fo r m e to b e

p l a c e d w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e .

M y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li

s t a r t e d - w a s p u r e l y b e c a u s e o f m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
S o th a t i s h o w I b e c a m e - I b e c a m e a c q u a i n te d o r - o r c l o s e
t o G e n e r a l M d l u li .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d c o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a i r w h a t s o r t o f

f u n c t i o n s y o u w o u ld p e r fo r m f o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Sorry

M s W e n tz e l .

Where - what page are we on?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 12 and paragraph 56.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

when

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s a p p o in t e d w h ic h w a s in 2 0 0 9 , 1 J u ly - i f I a m
c o r r e c t . U p t o th e p o i n t o f m e b e i n g p l a c e d i n w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n w h ic h
is 2 1 O c to b e r 2 0 11 I d id m in i m a l w o r k i n t e r m s o f m y o w n j o b
d e s c r ip t io n .
P u r e l y b e c a u s e th e r e w a s n o ti m e f o r m e t o d o w h a t I w a s
s u p p o s e d t o b e d o i n g . I s a y t h is b e c a u s e t h e r e a lw a y s s o m e t h i n g t o d o
20

f o r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o r G e n e r a l M d l u li . I b a s i c a ll y b e c a m e t h e ir l a c k e y.
I w a s r e q u ir e d a t t h e b e c k a n d c a ll a t o d d h o u r s a s w e l l.
in c l u d e

C h a ir

making

sure

that

s a fe

houses

-

at

T h is w o u ld
that

ti m e

General Mdluli made use of a safe house.
T h i s s a f e h o u s e h a d t o b e s to c k e d w i t h g r o c e r ie s . It h a d t o
be cleaned.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : S a fe h o u s e y o u s a i d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a fe h o u s e s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: By the way safe houses were houses that were used
b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e f o r o r p e r fo r m in g - f o r m e e ti n g c e r ta i n p e o p l e
in c l u d i n g in f o r m - in f o r m a n ts in - a n d a l s o w h e n t h e y n e e d e d to d o
s o m e w o r k a w a y fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o ffi c e s . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t w o u ld b e f o r o p e r a ti o n a l p u r p o s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i f y o u c o u l d ju s t c o n ti n u e C o l o n e l N a i d o o

a s t o th e s o r t s o f t h in g s t h a t y o u w o u l d d o f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
General Lazarus.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e j u s t s t a r t a g a i n o n w h a t e x a c tl y y o u w e r e
s u p p o s e d to d o w it h r e g a r d to s a f e h o u s e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l M d l u l i a t

t h e ti m e m a d e - m a d e u s e o f a s a fe h o u s e . I h a d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e
s a f e h o u s e w a s s t o c k e d w i t h g r o c e r i e s w h e n e v e r h e w a s t h e r e . H e a ls o
20

h a d a v e h ic l e t h a t w a s p a r k e d th e r e t h a t h e u s e d . I h a d t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t th e v e h ic l e w a s c l e a n e d a l l th e ti m e w h e n e v e r h e u s e d i t.
A ls o in i ti a l ly f o r p u r c h a s in g o f - o f fl ig h t t i c k e ts fo r h i m - t h is
is f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li . S o t h e s e th in g s t o o k u p p a r t o f m y ti m e C h a ir. I
w a s h a r d ly a t m y o ffi c e d o i n g t h e j o b t h a t I - I w a s s u p p o s e d to b e
doing.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : B u y i n g g r o c e r i e s - d i d y o u g e t m o n e y fr o m h i m t o b u y
g r o c e r i e s f o r h i m in t h e s a f e - i n t h e s a fe h o u s e t h a t y o u u s e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. Th is w o u l d b e
f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e - th e fu n d s w o u l d b e fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e

Account?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u n e e d to p u t t h o s e u n d e r y o u r n a m e a s w e ll o r
n o t r e a l ly ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w o u ld h a v e to t a k e a n

a d v a n c e o n m y n a m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a n d y o u a b l e t o i n d i c a t e m o r e o r l e s s w h a t
k in d o f m o n e y y o u w o u l d u s e f o r g r o c e r ie s a t a n y p a r t ic u l a r ti m e i f
t h e r e w a s a k i n d o f m o r e o r le s s c o m m o n a m o u n t o r w a s i t - i t is n o t
e a s y to s a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir, I - I c a n n o t r e c a l l

b u t if t h e d o c u m e n t s a r e s h o w n - s h o w n t o m e I c a n c o n fir m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

C o lo n e l N a i d o o d i d y o u a ls o - w e r e y o u a ls o

r e q u ir e d t o d o th i n g s f o r M r M a r i m u t h u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
d o r e c a l l i t w a s o n a S a t u r d a y C h a ir.

C h a ir o n o n e o c c a s i o n I

M r M a r i m u th u - b y t h i s s t a g e a

r e l a ti o n s h i p h a d b e e n e s t a b l is h e d b y - b e tw e e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d
Mr Marimuthu.

I got a call it was a Saturday morning.

b e t w e e n s ix a n d s e v e n . I f I a m c o r r e c t in m y t i m e .

Page 132 of 156

I think it was

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
M r M a r i m u t h u s a id t h a t h e n e e d s a t o o th b r u s h a n d t o o t h p a s te
a n d t h a t I s h o u ld b u y t h e s e it e m s a n d b r i n g i t t o m e . H e w a s - h e w a s
b o o k e d i n to t h e H o l i d a y I n n .

I t w a s th e o n e n e a r O R Ta m b o

I n t e r n a ti o n a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s M r M a r i m u th u p a r t o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t th a t s t a g e t h e

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n h i m s e l f a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s in t h e p r o c e s s
o f b e i n g e s t a b li s h e d o r it w a s a lr e a d y e s t a b li s h e d b y t h a t s t a g e . I a m
ju s t n o t s u r e o f t h e t i m e fr a m e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t h e l a te r b e - h e w a s
la t e r s ig n e d o n a s a c o n t a c t p e r s o n a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair

this

in c i d e n t it r e a ll y m a d e m e s t o p to t h in k f o r a m o m e n t .

p a r tic u la r

Is t h is w h a t

C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a s c o m e t o a n d I a ls o q u e s t io n e d m y o w n - m y o w n
- my o w n p o s i ti o n o n th is . Is t h i s w h a t I j o i n e d th e p o l ic e f o r ? I t w a s
r e a l ly th e - q u it e a l o w p o i n t f o r m e a t t h a t s t a g e .
I w a s g e tt i n g i n s tr u c t io n fr o m a c o n v ic te d d r u g d e a l e r t o b r in g
20

him a toothpaste and a toothbrush.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D id y o u k n o w M r M a r i m u t h u t o b e a d r u g d e a l e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir l ik e I m e n t io n e d

e a r l ie r i n th e p a r a g r a p h t h a t I r e a d . I t is - t h is is n o t fa c t . W h a t I r e a d
o u t is c o n v e r s a t io n s t h a t I h a d w i th v a r i o u s c o l le a g u e s o f m i n e a t C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e r e g a r d in g M r M a r i m u th u a n d h is r e l a ti o n s h i p - h is s ta t u s

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a n d h is r e la t io n s h ip w i t h G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t t h is w a s j u s t a n a ll e g a t io n a n d y o u d id n o t

k n o w i t t o b e a f a c t t h a t h e w a s a d r u g d e a le r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, b u t
I a m j u s t e x p r e s s in g m y - m y t h o u g h t s a t t h e t i m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. S o th is is w h a t y o u - y o u w e r e th in k i n g a n d
y o u w e r e r e fl e c ti n g o n - o n y o u r p o s it i o n t o s a y i s t h i s w h a t y o u c a m e
to do?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
I - I bought him the items.

C h a i r I e v e n t u a l ly w e n t .

I g a v e i t to h i m a n d t h e n I s u b s e q u e n t ly

d r o p p e d h i m o ff a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e a n d I l e f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir y o u i n d ic a te d y o u w a n te d to s t o p a t

t h r e e . I s t h a t s ti ll th e p o s i t io n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e l e t u s c o n ti n u e a li t tl e b i t a n d le t m e s e e .
W e ll le t u s c o n ti n u e a n d l e t m e s e e h o w - m a y b e w e w il l e n d u p a t h a l f
- w e w ill - w e w il l s to p a t h a l f p a s t. L e t u s j u s t c o n ti n u e a b i t, ja .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y.

Colonel Naidoo we are now going to

d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts .
a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d p r o m o t io n s m a d e in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

These were
It is dealt

w i t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 1 3 fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 8 o n w a r d s . C o u l d

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
y o u p le a s e g iv e t h e C h a ir s o m e b a c k g r o u n d i n to t h is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair before we go to

t h a t - i f I m a y. I j u s t r e f le c t o n tw o th i n g s t h a t c o m e s t o m in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R e g a r d in g t h e S i n g a p o r e
tr i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I r e m e m b e r h a v i n g
a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h e r e h e t o ld m e th a t t h e Q u e e n
10

is h e a v y o n t h e p o c k e t a n d w h a t t h is s i m p ly m e a n s is Q u e e n r e fe r r i n g
t o Ly o n s w a s h e a v y o n th e p o c k e t. H e to l d m e th a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d
t o l d h i m t h a t o r - o r r a t h e r w h a t I p ic k e d u p fr o m th is c o n v e r s a t i o n s h e
w a s a c t u a l ly b e c o m i n g a n u is a n c e . I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Mdluli

c o m p la i n e d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th a t T h e r e s a Ly o n s h is g ir l fr i e n d a t t h e
ti m e w a s s h o p p i n g e x c e s s iv e ly a n d s h e w a s p u t ti n g fi n a n c i a l b u r d e n s
on him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

He

had

then

asked

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s fo r m o r e m o n e y b e c a u s e h e h a d r u n o u t o f f u n d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
o c c a s i o n s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

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T h is h a p p e n e d o n t w o

30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is w a s i n S i n g a p o r e

a n d o n o u r r e tu r n fr o m S i n g a p o r e t o S o u t h A f r i c a G e n e r a l M d l u li a g a in
a s k e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s f o r m o n e y b e c a u s e h e h a d r u n o u t o f fu n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a id o o i f y o u c o u l d n o w p l e a s e d e a l

w i t h t h e s e 2 5 0 p o s t s t h a t b e c a m e a v a i la b l e a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e d u r i n g
January and February 2010.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d i d th is c o m e a b o u t ? P l e a s e j u s t g o a h e a d a n d
10

relayed the story as you know it.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e

e x a c tl y h o w t h i s c a m e a b o u t b u t I k n o w t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s
d r i v i n g t h i s p r o c e s s . I t w a s d u r i n g t h e p e r io d 2 0 1 0 - e a r l y 2 0 1 0 w h e r e
2 5 0 p o s t s w e r e m a d e a v a il a b l e fo r p o s i t io n s w i t h i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e s .
T h i s is n o w c o m m o n ly k n o w n a s th e 2 5 0 p o s ts .
T h i s - t h e s e w e r e a l l c o v e r t p o s ts .

C h a ir m o s t o f t h e s e

p o s i ti o n s w e r e - w e r e u t ili s e d t o p r o v id e e m p lo y m e n t fo r fa m i ly a n d
fr i e n d s o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

c r e a te d ?

As f a r a s y o u k n o w w e r e t h e s e p o s ts o ffi c i a l ly

I n o th e r w o r d s if o n e w e n t t o t h e r e c o r d s o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e w o u ld o n e f in d d o c u m e n ts r e la ti n g t o t h e ir c r e a t io n o r i s
t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u d o n o t k n o w.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a s f a r a s I k n o w

t h is w a s n o t d o n e i n - a s w i t h t h e n o r m a l p o l ic e s y s t e m t h e o p e n
a c c o u n t w h e r e a n a d v e r t w o u ld b e p la c e d in th e - in th e n e w s p a p e r.

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S a y i n g th a t X a m o u n t o f p o s ts a r e a v a i la b le w i t h - w i t h e a c h r a n k . A s
f a r a s I k n o w it w a s a - a c o v e r t p o s t p l a c e d i n t h e n e w s p a p e r.
M e a n i n g t h a t i t d i d n o t r e fl e c t t h a t t h e s e w e r e p o s i ti o n s th a t n e e d e d t o
b e f ill e d w i th i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . C o n t i n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t
w h a t w o u l d b e t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e t o b e fo ll o w e d w h e n a p p o i n ti n g a n
a g e n t t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

C h a ir

n o r m a lly

to

a p p o i n t a n a g e n t , a n a g e n t is g e n e r a l ly a p o lic e o ffi c i a l , a n o ff ic ia l ,
t h e y m u s t b e o r th e y s h o u l d b e a n o p e r a t io n r e g is te r e d t h a t w o u l d b e
a d d r e s s i n g a s p e c i fic c r i m e a r e a o r s y n d i c a te . G e n e r a ll y a n a g e n t is a
p o li c e o ffi c i a l , o r p o l ic e m e m b e r, t h a t p o li c e m e m b e r w o u l d b e
id e n t i fi e d b y th e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r o r t h e p e r s o n t h a t i s r u n n i n g th a t
s p e c i f ic o p e r a ti o n o r p r o j e c t .
O n c e t h is i n d iv id u a l i s i d e n ti f ie d a n d h e is s u it a b l e fo r t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t C h a ir I t h i n k I a m g o i n g t o lik e y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r
t h is is n o w .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u ’ r e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t i s g iv i n g to o m u c h o f

detail
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a m g o in g t o s k i p t h i s

point.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s k i p w h a t e v e r I w o u l d g i v e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t s h o u l d

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n o t b e g i v e n o u t p u b lic ly.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t m a y b e I c o u ld a s k t h i s is t h e r e a d i ff e r e n c e
b e t w e e n a n a g e n t a n d a n i n f o r m a n t o r i n f o r me r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir lik e I m e n t io n e d

a n a g e n t is g e n e r a ll y a p o l ic e o ff ic i a l, a n i n fo r m e r is a p r iv a t e c i t iz e n
r e c r u it e d t o g a t h e r i n te ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

I n f o r m e r s a r e n o r m a ll y

r e m u n e r a t e d f o r t h e ir w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON: As and when they do work?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: They are not paid monthly?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

In f o r m e r s

are

paid

m o n th ly C h a ir b u t th e y a r e a ls o r e m u n e r a t e d o n s u c c e s s e s a s w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d o th e y h a v e a b a s i c s a l a r y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I f y o u c o u ld s a y s o y e s ,

t h e y g e t a b a s ic s a la r y a n d th e y a r e r e m u n e r a t e d i n te r ms o f t h e ir
p r o d u c t io n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e ’s a p e r f o r m a n c e b o n u s a s i t w e r e if – o r a

s u c c e s s fe e a s i t w e r e i f th e y h a v e d o n e s o m e th in g q u i te w e l l o n a
p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t th e n a p a r t fr o m t h e ir b a s ic s a la r y t h e y g e t p a i d
s o m e t h i n g t o to p u p .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , b u t t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e m a n d a n

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a g e n t is th a t a n a g e n t i s a m e m b e r o f th e S A P S w h e r e a s th e y d o n ’t –
they are not members of the SAPS, or they do not need to be members
of the SAPS.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, a n
a g e n t is g e n e r a l ly o r n o r m a ll y a m e m b e r o f th e p o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o n o w l o o k in g a t p a g e 1 4 ,

p a r a g r a p h 6 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t c o u l d y o u e x p la i n to t h e C h a ir h o w
m e m b e r s o f t h e M d l u l i f a m ily c a m e t o b e a p p o i n t e d t o b e C r i m e
10

I n t e lli g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll h e m i g h t a l r e a d y h a v e m e n t io n e d th e M d l u l i

f a m ily b u t l e t u s tr y a n d g e t h i m to j u s t g iv e e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h o w a s
a p p o i n t e d a n d s o o n a n d i f i t h a p p e n s t o b e M d l u l i f a m i ly th a t i s f in e .
J u s t s p e a k m o r e o n th is – C o lo n e l N a i d o o – a s to w h o g o t a p p o i n t e d a s
f a r a s y o u k n o w t o t h e s e p o s i ti o n s a n d s o a n d s o o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i f I m a y r e g a r d i n g

t h e M d l u li f a m i ly h o w t h e ir a p p o in t m e n t c a m e a b o u t , i f I j u s t c a n g e t a
f e w m o m e n ts t o e x p la i n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s w a s a r o u n d J a n u a r y
o r F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 C h a ir, I w a s i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s o ffi c e w h e n G e n e r a l
M d lu li a r r iv e d , w i t h n o r m a l p r o to c o l I g r e e t e d h i m a n d e x c u s e d my s e l f ,
a n d h e s a i d I s h o u l d w a it .

General Mdluli the produced a piece of

p a p e r a n d h e g a v e it t o G e n e r a l – o r h a n d e d i t o v e r to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
a n d h e s a i d t h e h e w a n t s a l l o f t h o s e p e o p l e o n t h a t l is t t o b e
a p p o i n t e d , a n d I a m r e f e r r in g t o t h i s 2 5 0 p o s ts , th e c o v e r t p o s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus then

a s k e d G e n e r a l M d lu li h o w o r w h a t w o u ld b e t h e b e s t w a y t h a t t h e s e
in d i v i d u a ls th a t w a s w r i tt e n o n th is p i e c e o f p a p e r h o w t h e y w e r e g o in g
t o b e a p p o i n t e d . C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t c o n v e r s a t i o n b u t
t h e y b o th a g r e e d th a t th e s e in d i v i d u a ls s h o u ld b e a p p o in t e d i n to t h e
a g e n t p r o g r a m m e o r r a t h e r p la c e d a n d a p p o i n t e d i n to – a p p o in t e d f ir s t
10

a n d th e n p l a c e d in t o th e a g e n t p r o g r a m m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h e n y o u a r e a p p o i n te d a s a n a g e n t a s o p p o s e d
t o a n in f o r m e r a r e y o u p a i d g e n e r a lly a t a h i g h e r r a te t h a n a n i n fo r m e r ?
O r n o t n e c e s s a r ily ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a n a g e n t w o u l d g e t
h is n o r m a l s a l a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a m e m b e r o f t h e p o li c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

As a normal, it depends

o n w h a t h is r a n k i s h e w i ll g e t t h e s a m e a m o u n t .

I n fo r m e r s

r e m u n e r a t io n c a n fl u c t u a te , i t a ll d e p e n d s o n t h e s u c c e s s e s a n d t h e
20

in t e l li g e n c e t h e y g a th e r.
CHAIRPERSON: So you say an agent would get his normal salary that
h e w a s g e t ti n g a s a p o li c e o ffi c e r b e fo r e b e i n g a p p o in t e d a s a n a g e n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n u p o n b e i n g a p p o i n te d a s a g e n t th e r e is th e n
s o m e a d d it i o n a l a m o u n t t h a t is a d d e d t o h i s s a la r y o r n o t?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t th a t I a m a w a r e o f

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , s o h e w o u l d n o r m a l ly b e p a id th e s a m e a m o u n t

t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d i f h e h a d r e m a i n e d a t th e r a n k a t w h ic h
h e w a s s i m p l y a s a m e m b e r o f t h e p o l ic e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, b

b u t j u s t th e r e is m o r e d e t a il t o t h is , b u t i t is g o i n g t o d e lv e in t o
o p e r a ti o n a l m a t te r s s o I d o n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o t h a t is fi n e , t h a t i s f i n e .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
in d i v i d u a ls

associated

N o w y o u d e a l i n y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h
w i th

th e

–

General

M d l u l i’s

f a m ily

were

a p p o i n t e d a s a g e n ts , it is d i ff ic u l t t o – f o r y o u to t e s t if y to t h i s w i th o u t
d is c l o s in g t h e f a m ily r e la t io n s h ip b u t c o u l d y o u b r o a d ly s a y h o w m a n y
a p p o i n t m e n ts w e r e m a d e t o – w h o w e r e m e m b e r s o f G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s
f a m ily a n d fr ie n d s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w i ll d o th a t i n a m o m e n t
C h a ir, i f I c o u l d j u s t f in is h u p o n m y p r e v i o u s , I a m r e fe r r i n g t o 6 4 , t h e
M d lu li f a m ily r e g a r d i n g t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s o ff ic e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

Ye s .

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

R e g a r d in g th e p ie c e o f

p a p e r t h a t w a s h a n d e d t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li ,
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h e n i n s tr u c te d m e t o f e t c h d o c u m e n ts , th e s e a r e
a p p lic a ti o n fo r e m p l o y m e n t i n S A P S , i t is a b o o k le t C h a ir t h a t o n e
n e e d s t o f ill o u t f o r e m p lo y m e n t , w h i c h I d i d , I c o ll e c t e d a s t a c k o f
t h e m , I b r o u g h t i t b a c k a n d I h a n d e d it o v e r t o G e n e r a l M d lu li .

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CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h a t d o c u m e n t d id y o u h a n d o v e r t o G e n e r a l

M d lu li ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t h a s g o t a s p e c i fi c

n u m b e r C h a ir, a t t h i s s t a g e I c a n n o t r e c a l l i t , b u t i t is b a s i c a ll y a n
a p p lic a ti o n f o r e m p lo y m e n t in S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, a n d w h y d id y o u g iv e t h a t t o h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t h i n k i t is a Z 8 f o r m , I

am not sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d y o u g iv e t h a t to h i m ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General

Lazarus

in s t r u c t e d m e t o g e t a f e w o f t h o s e fr o m C o l o n e l Fu r s te n b u r g ’s o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h w e r e th e y f o r m s t h a t w o u l d b e f il le d b y t h e

p e r s o n s t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u li w a n t e d t o b e a p p o in t e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t s ta c k o f b o o k le ts I

h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h e s u b s e q u e n tl y l e ft .

After

General Mdluli left General Lazarus took a look at the piece of paper
t h a t w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o h i m fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i – C h a ir I a m s o r r y I
20

ju s t w e n t a h e a d o f m y s e l f a li t tl e b i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R e f e r r i n g t o t h o s e p e o p l e
o r i n d i v i d u a ls th a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n te d a s a g e n ts .

I t e s t i fi e d

t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d M d l u li a g r e e d t h a t t h o s e in d iv i d u a ls s h o u l d
be placed in the agent program and General Lazarus asked General

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
M d lu li w h o w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e h a n d l e r, a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li l o o k e d in
m y d ir e c ti o n a n d s a i d t h is m a n c a n d o i t, I tr u s t h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w e r e y o u u l ti m a t e ly a p p o in t e d a s t h e ir

handler?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Indeed, seven, I was

h a n d l in g s e v e n a g e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s a h a n d l e r l ik e th e ir s u p e r v i s o r w h o s h o u l d k n o w

w h a t a c ti v i t ie s th e y a r e in v o lv e d i n a n d w h a t r e a l ly t h e y d o i n te r ms o f
10

t h e ir r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s a s a g e n ts ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n e s s e n c e t h a t is w h a t i t
is C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d if a n y b o d y w a n ts to fi n d o u t w h e r e t h e y a r e
a n d w h a t th e y a r e b u s y w i th t h e y w o u l d c o m e t o y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

To t h e i r h a n d l e r t h a t i s

correct, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e ir h a n d l e r, y e s o k a y, a lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

a f te r

General

M d lu li l e f t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s l o o k e d a t t h e p ie c e o f p a p e r t h a t w a s
20

h a n d e d t o h i m , a n d h e to ld m e t h a t M d lu li w a n te d t o a p p o in t h is f a m ily
m e m b e r s , r e f e r r in g to t h e lis t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

His exact words were

D e l a n i w a n ts t o a p p o i n t a n d I m e n ti o n e d o b v i o u s ly I c a n n o t m e n ti o n t h e
names, FM24 and FM28.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus

was

r e fe r r i n g t o F M 2 4 , h e m e n ti o n e d D e la n i w a n t s t o a p p o i n t h i s v r o u a n d
the queen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th a t s i m p ly m e a n s a t

t h a t s t a g e t h e v r o u r e f e r r in g t o h is t h e n w if e , a n d th e q u e e n , r e f e r r in g
t o t h e g ir l fr ie n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ( l a u g h in g )
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r i t is a b it d i ffic u l t

h e r e b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w i t h t h e c o d e n a m e s o r c o d e n u m b e r s i t is a b i t
d i ff ic u l t fo r m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I s a i d C h a ir w it h t h e

c o d e n u m b e r s i t i s a b i t d i ff ic u l t .
CHAIRPERSON: Well are you at – are you looking at paragraph 67?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 6 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 66?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y n o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair as in 67 of my

s t a te m e n t I a m j u s t g o i n g t o r e a d i t o u t b e c a u s e i t is b a s i c a ll y t h e r e is
no names, it is numbers.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
“ T h e fo ll o w i n g i n d i v i d u a ls a s s o c i a te d w it h G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s
f a m ily w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly a p p o i n t e d a s a g e n t s w i t h i n C I
f o ll o w i n g t h e a fo r e m e n t io n e d d is c u s s i o n ; F M 2 4 , F M 2 9 , F M 2 6 ,
FM28, FM27.”
A n d th e n w e g o o n t o 6 8 , p o in t 6 8 , a l t h o u g h I a m u n c e r t a in o f t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d t h e f o l lo w in g t w o in d i v i d u a ls
t h e y f o r m e d p a r t o f t h e a p p o in t m e n ts fo ll o w i n g t h e d i s c u s s io n b e t w e e n
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li , h e n c e I h a v e i n c lu d e d t h e m a s
10

p a r t o f t h e G e n e r a l M d l u li f a m il y, t h e s e t w o w o u l d b e F M 2 5 a n d F M 3 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: And FM30?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

Then

C o lo n e l

N a id o o

were

s i m il a r

a p p o i n t m e n ts m a d e in r e s p e c t o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s fa m i ly a n d fr i e n d s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e w e d o t h a t , y o u d i d c o n fir m t h a t th o s e
p e r s o n s i n G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s lis t t h a t w e r e h is f a m ily m e m b e r s a s w e ll a s
t h e t w o p e r s o n s t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 8 w h e r e y o u s a id
y o u w e r e n o t s u r e i f th e y w e r e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I c a n c o n f ir m i t

q u ic k ly r e f e r r i n g t o t h e lis t t h a t I h a v e i n fr o n t o f m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I f I h a v e a m o m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm.

W h a t a r e y o u s e e k i n g to c o n fir m C o lo n e l

Naidoo?

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i n te r ms o f t h e li s t
t h a t I h a v e i n fr o n t o f m e I a m ju s t c o n fi r m in g th a t t h e c o d e s t h a t a r e i n
t h e s ta t e m e n t i s a c tu a lly t h e p e r s o n t h a t i s o n m y lis t . I d o c o n fi r m t h e
c o d e s a c c o r d i n g t o my lis t C h a ir, a s t o w h a t I p u t i t i n my s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t , y o u d i d c o n f ir m t h a t y o u u l ti m a t e l y
w e r e th e h a n d le r f o r a l l t h o s e p e r s o n s m e n ti o n e d in p a r a g r a p h 6 7 a n d
paragraph 68 by way of the codes?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , a n d a t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e n t o n to t h e w i t n e s s

p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m w e r e y o u s t il l t h e ir h a n d l e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o t h a t w o u ld m e a n t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n

t h e ir h a n d l e r fo r a b o u t a y e a r fr o m 2 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w a s m o r e th a n a y e a r

C h a ir, i t w a s fr o m 2 0 1 0 , t h e f ir s t f e w m o n t h s o f 2 0 1 0 , t o O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ,
s o i t w o u ld b e a b o u t a y e a r a n d a h a lf C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: So it could be about a year and a half?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

I t h in k a ft e r th is M s W e n t z e l y o u t o

t h e n s a y w h e th e r t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y e l s e w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
w h o s e f a m ily a n d fr ie n d s w e r e a ls o a p p o i n t e d t o s o m e o f th e s e p o s ts .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Fi r s t w i t h – fi r s t l e t u s d e a l w i t h G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s ’s fa m i ly a n d fr i e n d s , w h ic h i s d e a l t w i t h o n p a g e 1 6 , p a r a g r a p h

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
69.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s , C h a i r I a m a l s o

g o i n g t o r e a d t h is o u t b e c a u s e i t is b a s ic a lly c o d e n a m e s , c o d e
numbers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d I r e a d t h e f a m il y,

a n d th is is p a g e 1 6 :
“ T h e L a z a r u s fa m i ly a n d fr i e n d s p o i n t 6 9 , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
a ls o s e c u r e d th e u n d u e a p p o in t m e n t a n d p r o m o ti o n o f h i s
10

f a m ily,

fr i e n d s

and

associates

as

f o ll o w s ;

FM01

was

a p p o i n t e d a s a Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r w i t h o u t a n y p r i o r a p p o i n t m e n t
in th e S A P S o r C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e . F M 0 1 w a s a p p o in t e d a s a
Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r w it h o u t a n y p r i o r a p p o i n t m e n t i n S A P S o r C I
a n d a fe w m o n t h s la t e r t h is s a m e p e r s o n w a s p r o m o t e d to
Captain.

F M 0 3 w a s a p p o in t e d a s C a p t a i n w i t h o u t a n y p r i o r

a p p o i n t m e n t i n t h e S A P S o r C I.

FM04 was appointed as a

L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l w i t h o u t a n y p r i o r a p p o in t m e n t i n S A P S o r
C I. F M 0 5 w a s a p p o i n te d a s a c l e r k , F M 0 6 w a s a p p o i n te d a s
a C a p ta i n c o m in g fr o m t h e S A P S i n P i e t e r m a r it z b u r g a t a
20

lo w e r r a n k a n d a s a c l e r k .

FM31 was appointed as a

c o n s t a b le w i th o u t a n y p r i o r p o li c e e x p e r i e n c e .

FM32 [I see

it ’s r e d a c te d ] , o w n e r o f [ r e d a c t e d ] a n e n t i ty d e a l t w i t h b e l o w
w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a c a p t a i n w i t h o u t a n y p r io r a p p o in t m e n t i n
SAPS or CI.

FM33 was appointed as a Colonel under

General Lazarus, her husband was appointed as a Colonel at

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
[ a n d t h e n a m e i s r e d a c t e d ] w i th o u t a n y p r io r a p p o i n t m e n t in
t h e S A P S o r C I.

F M 3 4 w a s s t a ti o n e d a t S A P S To n g a a t in th e

u n i fo r m b r a n c h t o th e r a n k o f L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l.

General

L a z a r u s w a s p r e v io u s ly s t a t i o n e d a t t h i s s t a ti o n w h e r e h e a n d
F M 3 4 w e r e fr ie n d s .

F M 3 4 ’s t h r e e d a u g h t e r s w e r e a ls o

e m p l o y e d t h r o u g h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s d u e h is r e l a ti o n s h i p o r
fr i e n d s h i p w i th W a r r a n t O ff ic e r F M 3 4 . ”
C h a ir I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e ir n a m e s o r o n w h a t l e v e l t h e y w e r e p l a c e d o r
p r o m o te d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And I am now reading

fr o m p o i n t 7 0 C h a ir.
“ T h o s e o f u s w h o w e r e w i th i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s i n n e r c ir c le
r e c e i v e d p r o m o ti o n s o f t e n s k i p p i n g a r a n k . T h o s e o f u s w h o
b e n e fi t te d w e r e a s fo ll o w s ; I w a s p r o m o te d fr o m Wa r r a n t
O ff ic e r t o L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l , F M 0 7 , a c lo s e c o n fi d a n t e o f
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a p p o in t e d fr o m th e r a n k o f C a p t a in to
C o l o n e l.

I a m c o n v in c e d t h a t h is p r o m o ti o n n e e d e d t o b e

c o n c e a l e d a s s h o r tl y t h e r e a f te r h e w a s p l a c e d i n t o th e A g e n t
20

Programme.

F M 0 8 , a c l o s e c o n f id a n te o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

a n d t h e s o n o f [r e d a c te d ] fr o m C I w a s p r o m o te d fr o m
c o n s t a b le . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] . .. ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, s o r r y M s W e n tz e l w i ll y o u m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t
g a p is f il le d t o s a y t h e s o n o f w h o b e c a u s e I a s s u m e i t i s s o m e b o d y
w h o s h o u l d b e g iv e n a n F M c o d e .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th is p e r s o n d o e s n o t h a v e a n F M c o d e b u t –

b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n ’ t a n a g e n t b u t i t w o u l d i d e n t i fy w h o th is p e r s o n w a s
t h e s o n o f , a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t is w h y i t w a s r e d a c t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f I u n d e r s t a n d i t th e s o n o f – th is p e r s o n w a s

n o t g iv e n a n F M n u m b e r b e c a u s e I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t p e r s o n w a s a n
a g e n t, a n d j u s t w h o s e s o n i t w a s w a s r e d a c te d s o th a t y o u c o u l d n o t
t h e n d e d u c e w h o t h e p e r s o n w a s , b u t I w il l m a k e s u r e th a t a n F M
n u m b e r is g iv e n t o t h a t p e r s o n a s w e ll .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e c a u s e i t is m a y b e n e c e s s a r y to s a y s o m e t h in g
s o th a t ’s n o t j u s t h a v e b l a n k , i f i t is X o r Y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I a p p r e c ia t e th a t , i t w o u ld b e m u c h

b e t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W i t h m a y b e in b r a c k e ts s o m e th i n g in d i c a t in g w h y i t

cannot be disclosed.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I a g r e e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t o b v io u s ly C o l o n e l N a i d o o k n o w s w h o t h e s o n
o r th e s o n o f ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

C h a ir I k n o w w h o t h i s

p e r s o n is , h e i s , I b e li e v e h e is n o w d e c e a s e d , h e is la t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y b u t d i s c l o s i n g t h a t p e r s o n m i g h t d is c lo s e
FM08?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w o u l d p r o b a b l y, m i g h t

d o t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t , y e s , c o n t in u e .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a m r e a d i n g fr o m 7 0 . 4 .

F M 1 2 w h o is r e l a te d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’s w i f e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o
C o l o n e l fr o m t h e r a n k o f C a p ta i n . I a m c o n v i n c e d F M 1 2 C h a ir, I t h i n k
t h is is i n c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m u s t h a v e b e e n h i s p r o m o ti o n , n o t p r o m o ti o n s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h is is in c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m u s t h a v e b e e n m e a n t to b e h is p r o m o t i o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

70.4

should

a c t u a ll y r e a d F M 0 9 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh it should be FM09, not 12.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, n o .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, s o th a t s h o u ld b e i n a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t

Ms Wentzel.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n s e n t to t h e i m p li c a t e d
person as is.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d th e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t w o u ld s a y t h a t th e

r e fe r e n c e F M 1 2 i n C l a u s e 1 7 . 4 i s i n c o r r e c t , i t s h o u l d F M w h a t e v e r t h e
20

c o d e is s u p p o s e d t o b e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , I w il l a t t e n d to t h a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w i ll j u s t r e a d 1 7 . 4 a g a i n
C h a ir :
“FM09 who is related to General Lazarus’ wife was appointed

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
to Colonel on the rank of Captain.

I am convinced that his

p r o m o ti o n a ls o n e e d e d t o b e c o n c e a l e d a s s h o r t ly t h e r e a ft e r
h e w a s p l a c e d i n t h e A g e n ts P r o g r a m m e .

F M 1 0 a c o n f id a n t e

a n d p o s s ib l e b u s in e s s p a r t n e r to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s
p r o m o te d fr o m L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l t o a f u l l C o l o n e l. ”
A n d t h e n I g o o n to t h e M a r i m u t h u f a m il y, t h is is p o i n t 7 1 C h a ir :
“ T h e M a r i m u t h u fa m i ly a n d fr ie n d s a ls o b e n e fi t e d fr o m th e ir
association with General Lazarus.
u m b r e l la o f t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts .

T h is w a s s ti ll u n d e r th e

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a p p o in t e d t h e

f o ll o w i n g p e r s o n fr o m M r M a r i m u t h u ’s f a m i l y, t h e s e w e r e . . . ”

10

M r M a r i m u t h u h i m s e l f C h a ir w a s n o t a p p o i n te d i n th is p r o c e s s , h e w a s
r e g is t e r e d a s a c o n t a c t p e r s o n a n d h e r e c e iv e d a s a l a r y i n t h e a m o u n t
of R50 000 per month.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t ’s t h e d i ffe r e n c e , i f a n y, b e t w e e n a c o n t a c t

p e r s o n a n d a n in f o r m e r ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

r e m u n e r a t e d b y C I , i s r e g i s te r e d o n t h e s y s t e m .

an informer is
A contact person

n o r m a l ly d e a l s w it h a d h o c in f o r m a t io n , is n o t a r e g is te r e d p e r s o n
within CI.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w o u l d h e b e p a id o n a n a d h o c b a s is a n d w h e n
t h e r e i s s o m e th i n g h e h a s h e l p e d th e p o li c e w i th , o r h e w o u ld a l s o b e –
receive a standard payment, salary?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

from

what

I

u n d e r s t a n d th e c o n t a c t p e r s o n d o e s n o t g e t r e m u n e r a te d , a l th o u g h th e y
c a n , i t a ll d e p e n d s o n t h e l e v e l o f a s s i s t a n c e , i f y o u w a n t t o p u t i t th a t .

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Whereas

an

in f o r m e r

g e t s a m o n t h l y s ti p e n d a n d o b v i o u s ly b a s e d o n s u c c e s s e s g e t s
r e m u n e r a t e d o n th a t l e v e l a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

L ik e

I m e n t io n e d

Mr

M a r i m u t h u w a s n o t p r o m o t e d i n t h is p r o c e s s b u t h e w a s r e g i s te r e d a s a
c o n ta c t p e r s o n a n d h e r e c e i v e d a n a m o u n t o f R 5 0 0 0 0 p e r m o n t h . T h is
p i e c e o f in f o r m a ti o n w a s t o l d to m e b y h is h a n d l e r C h a ir, w h ic h i s
10

FM08.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Claims from SIC would

prove this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 1 3 w a s a p p o in t e d a s a
c o l o n e l , w i t h o u t a n y p r io r a p p o in t m e n t i n t h e S A P S o r C I . C h a ir t h i s is
s t il l w it h in t h e M a r i m u t h u f a m il y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

71.2,

FM35

was

a p p o i n t e d a s a L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l , w i t h o u t a n y p r i o r a p p o i n t m e n t i n t h e
S A P S o r C I . F M 1 5 w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a C a p t a i n o r L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l
w i t h o u t a n y p r i o r a p p o in t m e n t i n t h e S A P S o r C I . F M 3 6 w a s a p p o i n t e d
a s a C o l o n e l , a f te r l e a v e t h e S A P S a t a l o w e r r a n k s s o m e y e a r s p r i o r t o
t h is a p p o i n t m e n t . F M 1 7 w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a C a p ta in w i th o u t a n y p r i o r
a p p o i n t m e n t i n th e S A P S o r C I.

FM18 was appointed as a clerk and

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
F M 1 9 w a s a p p o in t e d a s a c le r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o t h e s e w e r e a l l e i t h e r f a m ily m e m b e r s o f M r

M a r i m u t h u o r fr i e n d s o f th e M a r i m u t h u f a m ily ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d a l to g e th e r it w a s o n e , tw o , th r e e , fo u r, fiv e ,
s ix , s e v e n , e i g h t, e i g h t p e o p l e e x c lu d in g Mr M a r i m u t h u o r n i n e w i t h
him.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir,

eight without him.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Ye s a n d t h e n . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a ls o r e f e r r e d t o

a n o t h e r i n c i d e n t t h a t I r e m e m b e r, t h is is i n d ir e c t r e l a ti o n to h o w t h e s e
in d i v i d u a ls w e r e a p p o i n t e d , li k e I m e n t io n e d e a r li e r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
tr a v e l le d w it h m e t o – fr o m h is h o m e t o h is o ff ic e a n d b a c k , t h i s w a s
a l m o s t e v e r y d a y.

On one occasion, if I can remember it was coming

b a c k fr o m w o r k i n t h e a f t e r n o o n , h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th h i m , a n d
h e s a i d t h a t Ti m m y d id a l o t f o r h i m a n d h e i s g o i n g to r e tu r n t h e
f a v o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th is n o w a f t e r o r b e f o r e o r a f t e r th e a p p o i n t m e n t
20

o f M r M a r i m u t h u ’s f a m il y m e m b e r s a n d fr i e n d s to s o m e o f t h e s e
p o s i ti o n s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a s s u m e th is w a s

b e f o r e , t h is s t a te m e n t w a s m a d e “ Ti m m y d i d a lo t f o r m e a n d I a m g o i n g
t o r e t u r n t h e f a v o u r ” I a s s u m e th e y w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly a p p o i n te d a f t e r
h i m s a y i n g th is , b e c a u s e i n w h a t h e s a i d h e i s g o i n g to d o i t , s o i t s ti ll

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
n e e d e d t o b e d o n e , fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d th is t o b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s c o n t i n u e M s W e n t z e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i t i s h a l f p a s t t h r e e , u n le s s y o u w o u ld

lik e to c o n ti n u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e c o u l d r e a c h , th is c o u l d g o q u i t e q u i c k ly,

m a y b e w e c o u l d f in is h t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts , t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d t h e y
g o u p t o th e to p o f p a r a g r a p h 2 4 , I t h i n k h e w il l b e fa s t w it h th o s e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , C o l o n e l N a i d o o w e a r e a t p a g e 1 9 , s o

you have told us up to now that General Mdluli came to General
10

L a z a r u s w i th a p a p e r w h i c h r e f le c t e d n a m e s o f h i s f a m i ly m e m b e r s t h a t
h e w a n te d t o b e a p p o i n te d t o s o m e o f t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts , a n d t h a t t h a t w a s
d o n e a n d t h a t t h e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a ls o h a d h is o w n fa m i ly m e m b e r s
a n d fr i e n d s a p p o in t e d a s w e ll to s o m e o f t h e s e p o s ts a n d t h a t th e
f a m ily m e m b e r s , o r c e r t a i n f a m il y m e m b e r s o f t h e M a r i m u t h u f a m ily
w e r e a ls o a p p o i n te d a n d t h e ir fr i e n d s t o s o m e o f t h e p o s ts , is t h a t
r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d t h e n I s e e t h a t a t p a g e 1 9 y o u h a v e

something to say about Colonel Barnard.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, i f I
c a n j u s t c o n t in u e r e a d i n g fr o m m y s ta t e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page

19,

p o in t

73,

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w a s a C o l o n e l , w h o is a C o lo n e l i n th e p r o c u r e m e n t
u n i t o f C I a n d h a d d e a li n g s w i th S S A a c c o u n t r e fe r r i n g t o t h e S e c r e t

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
S e r v ic e A c c o u n t , h is s o n o r f a m i ly m e m b e r s o f h is w e r e a p p o i n t e d ,
C h a ir I d o n o t s e e t h e F M n u m b e r s , 7 3 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e r e n a m e s t h e r e , w h ic h s h o u ld n o t b e t h e r e a n d
s h o u l d b e r e p r e s e n te d b y F M c o d e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t t h is s t a g e w e

d o n ’t h a v e t h e m b e c a u s e o n th e s t a t e m e n t i t ’s r e d a c t e d a n d o n t h e F M
lis t I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e ir n a m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, m a y b e l e t u s s t o p h e r e . M s W e n t z e l w o u l d y o u
p l e a s e j u s t g o th r o u g h t h e w h o le o f t h is d o c u m e n t s w i th C o l o n e l
10

N a i d o o , i d e n t if y t h in g s t h a t s h o u l d b e c o r r e c t e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d t h e n h a v e a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it t h a t w il l

c o r r e c t t h i n g s , s o t h a t t o m o r r o w w e c a n ju s t m o v e w i t h s o m e s p e e d
without any problem.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , w e w ill a t te n d t o t h is o v e r n i g h t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y C o l o n e l N a i d o o w e a r e g o i n g to s t o p a t t h i s
s t a g e , i t is a b o u t t w e n ty n in e m i n u t e s t o f o u r a n d I a m t h i n k in g w h e t h e r
I s h o u l d s a y w e s h o u l d s ta r t a t h a l f p a s t n in e t o m o r r o w o r n o t , b u t I
m i g h t w is h t o n o t d is tu r b m y p l a n s i n t e r m s w h a t t i m e t o s t a r t t o t a k e
20

c a r e o f m y h e a l t h s i t u a ti o n .
Fr o m y o u r s i d e C o l o n e l N a i d o o i f I w e r e t o s a y w e s h a ll s t a r t
a t h a l f p a s t n i n e th a t w o u l d n o t c r e a te a n y p r o b le m s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t w o u l d b e fi n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d b e fi n e w i t h y o u , o k a y l e t u s s a y w e w i ll
s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n in e to m o r r o w b u t t h e r e i s r o o m t h a t i n th e m o r n i n g

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30 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 173
d e p e n d in g o n h o w I f e e l , I m ig h t s e n d a m e s s a g e th a t w e w il l s ta r t a t
t e n , s o i f y o u c o m e a t h a l f p a s t n i n e a n d fi n d t h a t th e r e is a m e s s a g e
t h a t w e w i ll s ta r t a t t e n p l e a s e b e a r w i t h m e , b u t i f a t a l l p o s s i b le w e
w i ll tr y h a l f p a s t n i n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , t h a t i s p e r f e c tl y s u i ta b le .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . W e w i ll s to p a t t h a t th e n f o r to d a y.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
10

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