C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R 1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N 3 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 4 2 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 info@gautengtranscribers.co.za CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 31 JULY 2020 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 3 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r H u l l e y, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r p e r so n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u C h a i r p e r s o n w e a r e r e a d y t o proceed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 M r C h a i r i f I co u l d m e n t i o n t h e m a t t e r o f M a j o r G e n e r a l Zi n h l e M o n o n o p i w h o w a s t e st i f y t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: The heater or the noise seems to be quite high today – this morning but I think they will attend to it you j u st r a i s e y o u r v o i c e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: Mr Chair this is the matter of Major G e n e r a l M o n o n o p i . A s I u n d e r st a n d t h e p o si t i o n t h e re i s a n a p p l i ca t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t i n re s p e ct o f M a j o r G e n e r a l Mononopi. 20 I u n d e r st a n d t h a t t h e b a si s o f t h e p o st p o n e m e n t is twofold. I n t h e f i r st i n st a n c e t h e r e i s a n a l l e g a t i o n s u p p o rt e d a p p a r e n t l y b y a r e p o rt b y a m e d i c a l d o ct o r t o t h e e ff e ct t h a t s h e i s s u ff e ri n g f r o m – s h e i s s u ff e ri n g f r o m d e p re s s i o n a n d t h a t i s t h e o n e b a si s u p o n w h i c h t h e a p p l i c a t i o n i s b r o u g h t . I n t h e s e c o n d i n st a n ce i t i s – t h e r e i s a r e p o rt t o t h e Page 3 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 e ff e ct t h a t s h e h a s t e st e d p o s i t i v e f o r C o vi d - 1 9 . We h a v e i n d i c a t e d i n so f a r a s t h e f i r st g r o u n d i s c o n c e r n e d o b vi o u sl y i n s o f a r a s t h e s e c o n d g r o u n d i s c o n c e r n e d t h e r e p o rt i s w h a t i t i s. I t i s o n l y c o m e i n v e r y re c e n t l y. We a r e n o t i n a p o si t i o n t o c h a l l e n g e i t . We d o n o t o p p o s e t h e a p p l i c a t i o n s o f a r a s i t g o e s. We d o h o w e v e r s a y t h a t i n so f a r a s t h e f i r st g r o u n d i s c o n ce r n e d t h a t s h e s u ff e r s f r o m d e p r e s si o n w e w o u l d l i k e t o h a ve h e r t e st e d b y o u r o w n – t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s o w n m e d i c a l 10 e x p e rt a n d I h a v e s p o k e n t o M r K h u m a l o w h o a p p e a r s o n behalf of Ms Mononopi. H i s i n d i ca t e d t o m e i s t h a t t h e y a r e a g r e e a b l e t o s u c h a n a r ra n g e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. No, no that is fine. I think that will b e i m p o rt a n t b e c a u s e I d o h a v e a d i st i n ct re c o l l e ct i o n t h a t i t i s n o t t h e f i r st t i m e t h a t s h e p ro v i d e s t h e co m m i s si o n w i t h a m e d i c a l ce rt i f i c a t e w h e n s h e i s s u p p o s e d t o a p p e a r w h i c h s a y s s h e i s s u ff e ri n g f r o m d e p re s si o n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 I t m a y b e o n ce , i t m a y b e t w i c e b e f o r e b u t I t h i n k s a d l y i t i s n o t t h e f i r st o n e a n d i t i s c o n c e rn i n g . A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s ye s c o n c e r n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: I f e a ch t i m e s h e i s r e q u i r e d t o a p p e a r s h e s u ff e r s d e p r e s si o n . B u t yo u w i l l l o o k i n t o t h e i s s u e . ADV HULLEY SC: We are m a ki n g i n v e st i g a t e t h e i s s u e . Page 4 of 255 arrangements to 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Okay no that is fine. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f M r K h u m a l o w o u l d l i ke t o a d d r e s s y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo ja. A D V K H U M A L O : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. M y i n st r u ct i o n s a r e I confirm with my colleague he said and I confirm also the i n st r u ct i o n t h a t w e w i l l o b l i g e t o t h e r e q u e st . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 ADV KHUMALO: And to my colleague. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV KHUMALO: A n d t h e n m y i n st r u ct i o n s a r e t o l i a i s e w i t h t h e R e g i st ra r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV KHUMALO: I n c o n n e ct i o n w i t h i t . CHAIRPERSON: Okay no that is fine. helpful if there will be cooperation genuinely depressed then that is fine. the 20 f i r st time c o n ce r n e d . that it happens so No it would be b e c a u se if she is I t i s j u st t h a t i t i s n o t one is bound to be S o – b u t y o u h a v e i n d i ca t e d t h a t s h e w i l l c o o p e r a t e a n d I t h i n k t h a t i s i m p o rt a n t . ADV KHUMALO: CHAIRPERSON: A s i t p l e a s e s t h e C h a i r. Ye s. O t h e r w i se I u n d e r st a n d t h e – t h e – c e rt a i n l y t h e i s s u e o f C o vi d -1 9 . T h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e w h o a r e a ff e ct e d s o I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e m a i n b a si s o n w h i c h w e w i l l Page 5 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 p o st p o n e . A D V K H U M A L O : A s i t p l e a s e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e a p p l i ca t i o n f o r t h e p o st p o n e m e n t o f t h e h e a ri n g o f t h e e vi d e n c e o f I t h i n k i t i s M a j o r G e n e r a l i s t h a t ri g h t ? M a j o r G e n e r a l Zi n h l e A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Mononopi. It is Major General of Major G e n e r a l Z i n h l e L u t ri ci a M o n o n o p i i s g ra n t e d a n d t h e h e a ri n g o f h e r e vi d e n c e i s p o st p o n e d t o a d a t e t o b e d e t e rm i n e d . 10 A D V K H U M A L O : I a m i n d e b t e d t o t h e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: And you are excused. ADV KHUMALO: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. M r C h a i r t h a t b ri n g s u s t o t h e t e st i m o n y o f M r S a n d i l e J u l y. We r k sm a n s. H e i s a d i r e ct o r a t He was one of the authors or the author of the s o ca l l e d We r k sm a n s R e p o rt w h i c h i s d a t e d 2 4 A p ri l 2 0 1 5 . I t 20 h a s b e e n t e st i f i e d t o o n s e ve r a l o c c a si o n s b e f o r e . He has b e e n i m p l i c a t e d b y M r M c B ri d e , M r S e s o k o a n d M r K h u b a i n re s p e ct o f t h e re p o rt t h a t h e h a s co m p i l e d . Yo u h a ve g r a n t e d h i m l e a v e t o c o m e a n d t e st i f y b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A ct u a l l y, I t h i n k w e a s k e d h i m t o c o m e Page 6 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ra t h e r t h a n h a d – I t h i n k h e d i d n o t a s k t o c o m e – w e a s ke d him to come and he obliged. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u t h a t i s i n f a ct s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: H e si m p l y p l a c e d h i s a ff i d a vi t b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : We h a ve a s k e d h i m t o c o m e a n d t e st i f y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : I n s u p p o rt o f i t . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. Thank you. Oh yes I think M r N g c u k a i t o b i y o u n e e d t o p l a c e y o u r s e l v e s – yo u r s e l f o n re c o r d ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s. T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. I a ct f o r We r k sm a n s a n d M r J u l y t o g e t h e r w i t h m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d M s Ta l c t h a t a s Yo u r Wo r s h i p kn o w s t h e p r a ct i c e , I w i l l o n l y p l a y a role only at the end. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 20 CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. Ye s, n o t h a t i s f i n e . Th a t i s f i n e . No t h a n k y o u . H m . P l e a s e a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h o r a ff i rm a t i o n . R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d . M R J U LY : M y n a m e i s S a n d i l e J u l y. REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a ve a n y o b j e ct i o n t o t a ki n g t h e p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ? Page 7 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : I d o n o t . REGISTRAR: D o y o u co n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ? M R J U LY : Ye s I d o . REGISTRAR: D o yo u s w e a r t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e w i l l b e t h e t ru t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e t ru t h ; i f s o p l e a se ra i se y o u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e God. M R J U LY : S o h e l p m e G o d . 10 R E G I S T R A R : T h a n k yo u . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k yo u M r J u l y f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e e vi d e n c e w h e n a s k e d t o d o s o . T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h . I – I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t w e s h o u l d t a k e m o r e t h a n t w o h o u r s a t m o st t h r e e h o u r s w i t h M r J u l y’s e vi d e n c e i f w e f o c u s si m p l y o n t h e re a l i s s u e s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: S o I a m j u st m e n t i o n i n g t h a t s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y h a s a n i d e a w h a t ki n d o f t i m e f r a m e I h a ve i n m i n d . O b vi o u sl y, t h e i s s u e s m u st b e d e a l t w i t h – w e m u st d o 20 j u st i c e t o t h e m b u t I t h i n k t h e i s s u e s a r e r a t h e r n a rr o w. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e y a re f a i rl y n a r r o w M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: J a t h e r e m a y b e a l o t o f f i l e s. I see a lot o f l e v e r a r c h f i l e s b e h i n d y o u a n d I se e a l o t o f f i l e s i n f r o n t o f M r J u l y b u t t h e i s s u e s I t h i n k a r e ra t h e r n a rr o w. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Page 8 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV HULLEY SC: Mr J u l y j u st f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e r e c o r d y o u a r e a d i r e ct o r a t We r k s m a n s A t t o r n e y s i s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s I a m . ADV HULLEY SC: A n d y o u h a v e b e e n i n p r a ct i c e f o r h o w long? M R J U LY : I h a v e b e e n i n p r a ct i c e f o r 2 4 y e a r s. ADV HULLEY SC: Now you compiled a r e p o rt – you t o g e t h e r w i t h c e rt a i n o t h e r m e m b e r s o f yo u r f i r m c o m p i l e d a 10 re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: In re l a t i o n to a c e rt a i n letter of i n st r u ct i o n t h a t w a s g i v e n t o y o u b y t h e f o r m e r Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e M r N k o si n a t h i N h l e ko o n t h e 2 3 F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: O n e s e c o n d M r H u l l e y. M y R e g i st r a r o p e n e d o n e o f M r J u l y’s su p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t s. I thought t h a t I n e e d t o l o o k a t t h e m a i n a ff i d a vi t – h i s m a i n a ff i d a vi t . ADV HULLEY SC: H i s m a i n a ff i d a vi t a p p e a r s M r C h a i r a t Exhibit Y8[B]. 20 CHAIRPERSON: What is the bundle? A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : N u m b e r. ADV HULLEY SC: Mr Chair this is Bundle LEA1. I t ru st b y n o w yo u r … C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l i t i s t h e ri g h t b u n d l e . T h a t b u n d l e t h e Page 9 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 top. ADV HULLEY SC: So to… CHAIRPERSON: T h e t o p a ff i d a vi t i s t h a t o f M r N h l e k o , i s t h a t ri g h t ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s M r N h l e k o . Mr J u l y’s a ff i d a vi t i s t h e second exhibit in that bundle and that appears at page 189. CHAIRPERSON: 189? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 1 8 9 M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Ja. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u w i l l s e e t h i s i s a r e s p o n se . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : To t h e a ff i d a vi t . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o I t h i n k I a m – I w a s m i st a k e n . I t h i n k I r e a d a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a vi t a s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t . So. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s a n s w e ri n g a ff i d a vi t . A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e m a i n a ff i d a vi t . 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y n o t h a t i s f i n e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. To p l a c e y o u i n t h e c o m p l e t e p i ct u r e a s f a r a s t h i s a ff i d a vi t i s c o n c e rn e d i t i s o n e o f t h re e a ff i d a vi t s t h a t h a s b e e n f i l e d b y M r J u l y. The other t w o a ff i d a v i t s r e l a t e i n su c c e s si o n t o M r K h u b a a n d t o M r Page 10 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Sesoko. T h e y a l s o f o r m p a rt o f t h e f i l e . Much of the e vi d e n c e i s i n c o r p o r a t e d i n t h i s p a rt i c u l a r a ff i d a vi t E x h i b i t Y 8 [ B ] b u t a l o t o f t h e i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t r e l a t e s sp e ci f i c a l l y t o t h e o t h e r t w o w i t n e s se s a p p e a r s s e p a r a t e l y i n a s e p a r a t e a ff i d a vi t . M r Ju l y w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h t h e f a ct t h a t y o u h a d c o m p i l e d a r e p o r t p u r su a n t t o i n s t ru ct i o n s t h a t h a d b e e n given to you. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 B y t h e f o rm e r M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : T h a t i s c o r r e ct . ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you. A n d t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t – y o u i n f a ct f i l e d t h r e e a ff i d a vi t s i n t h i s m a t t e r. One appears in Bundle LEA1. M R J U LY : L E A 1 . Yu p . ADV HULLEY SC: I think take it out. I w o u l d l i ke yo u t o turn with me to page 189. M R J U LY : 1 0 0 a n d ? ADV HULLEY SC: 189 of that bundle. 20 M R J U LY : Yu p . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h a t i s t h e f i r st p a g e o f yo u r a ff i d a vi t . If would turn to the end of that document which is at page – p a g e 1 0 0 a n d – s o r r y 3 7 6 . Yo u h a v e t h a t ? M R J U LY : I a m a l m o st t h e r e . Yu p p a g e 3 7 6 . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h a t i s yo u r si g n a t u r e i s i t n o t ? Page 11 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Yu p i t i s m y si g n a t u r e . ADV HULLEY SC: Now I will take – I might take you s u c c e s si v e l y t o t h e o t h e r a ff i d a v i t s t o c o n f i r m t h e m a s w e l l . T h e y a re i n t h e b u n d l e . M R J U LY : Yu p . ADV HULLEY SC: But I would like to take you at this point in time if you will… CHAIRPERSON: J u st o n e se c o n d M r H u l l e y. I j u st w a n t t o s a y M r N g c u k a i t o b i y o u r t e a m sh o u l d f e e l f r e e t o cr e a t e m o r e 10 s o ci a l d i st a n ci n g . Th e r e i s e n o u g h s p a ce e v e n b e h i n d . Ja. We d o n o t w a n t a n y b o d y b l a m i n g t h e c o m m i s si o n i f a n yt h i n g h a p p e n s a f t e r t h i s. Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr H u l l e y y o u m a y proceed. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. T h e s p e ci f i c r e p o rt that was compiled by – that has become – or that has been re f e rr e d t o a s t h e We r k s m a n s R e p o rt i f y o u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o a p r e c e d i n g e x h i b i t a t p a g e 11 3 o f t h e – s o rr y 11 4 o f t h e sa m e b u n d l e . This Mr Chair is an annexure to Mr N h l e k o ’s a ff i d a v i t . I t i s E x h i b i t Y 8 [ A ] . 20 M R J U LY : 11 4 ye s I a m t h e r e . ADV HULLEY SC: A n d i f yo u w o u l d t h e n g o t o t h e e n d o f that document which is at page 187 of the same bundle. M R J U LY : Yu p I a m t h e re . A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w i t i n d i c a t e s o v e r h e r e t h a t t h i s r e p o rt w a s si g n e d o n t h e 2 4 A p ri l o f 2 0 1 5 a t S a n d t o n . Page 12 of 255 This is in 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 f a ct t h e c o m p l e t e re p o rt , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : Yu p . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u ve r y m u c h . N o w j u st t o g e t t o t h e Te r m s o f R e f e re n c e t h a t w e r e g i v e n t o y o u i n s o f a r a s t h i s i s c o n c e r n e d a n d i f y o u – i f y o u d o d e si r e , w e c a n g o t h r o u g h – y o u c a n g o t h r o u g h t h e sp e ci f i c d o c u m e n t i s y o u l i k e . But I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o – a n d I h a v e i n d i c a t e d t o yo u t h a t p e r h a p s y o u s h o u l d h a v e t h i rt y m i n u t e s j u st t o e x p l a i n h o w t h i s e n t i r e event 10 came about? How you got – were u l t i m a t e l y h o w y o u h a n d e d u p t h e r e p o rt ? b ri e f e d and What was your i n t e r a ct i o n w i t h t h e Mi n i st e r a n d s p e ci f i c a l l y t h e a s p e ct s t h a t y o u – y o u f i l e d t h r e e a ff i d a vi t s a s w e h a v e i n d i c a t e d a n d s p e ci f i c a l l y the a sp e ct s that you think ought to be h i g h l i g h t e d b e f o r e I a s k y o u ce rt a i n q u e st i o n s r e l a t i n g t o t h e re p o rt a n d t o yo u r v a ri o u s a ff i d a vi t s ? M R J U LY : M r C h a i r I – c a n I e x e r c i se a ri g h t t o u s e m y t h i rt y m i n u t e s i f I a m a l l o w e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, n o , n o I a m . M R J U LY : A t t h e e n d . A t t h e e n d o f t h e c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. M R J U LY : I a m d o i n g s o b e c a u s e I a m m i n d f u l o f t h e f a ct t h a t y o u w a n t t h e sp a c e t i m e – I m e a n t h i s – t h e – y o u h a v e g o t t i m e p r e s s u re s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. M R J U LY : A n d y o u w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e f a ct s. Page 13 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : A n d I a m n o t – I a m n o t h e re t o d e a l w i t h p e ri p h e r a l i s s u e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : S o I w i l l d e a l i f n e c e s s a r y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja at the end. M R J U LY : I d o n o t w a n t – y e s i f n e c e s sa r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e f a ct s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a n k y o u . J a t h a n k y o u . ADV HULLEY SC: Ve r y w e l l . T h e – y o u h a v e o b vi o u sl y l i st e n e d t o – n o d o u b t re a d t h e t r a n s cr i p t a n d l o o ke d a t t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e a g a i n st y o u b y M r M c B ri d e , S e s o k o a n d K h u b a , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s, Ye s, n o I d i d . ADV HULLEY SC: N o w o b vi o u s l y t h e a s p e ct t h a t t r o u b l e s – c e rt a i n l y t r o u b l e d t h e m m o st i s t h e f a ct t h a t y o u c a m e t o a c o n cl u si o n w h i c h i s t h a t t h e y w e r e g u i l t y b a s e d o n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t h a t y o u h a d c o n d u ct e d , t h e w i t n e s s e s t h a t yo u 20 had – the witnesses that yo u had i n t e r vi e w e d and a c o n si d e r a t i o n o f t h e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 7 : 0 7 ] p a p e r s y o u c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e y w e r e g u i l t y o f – s o r r y – t h a t o n e o f t h e t h re e o f t h e m m i g h t b e g u i l t y o f t h e cr i m e o f d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e o r o b st r u ct i n g j u st i c e . M R J U LY : Ye s. Page 14 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : T h a t t h e y a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e ? M R J U LY : Yo u a r e s a yi n g I d i d n o t h e a r t h e f i r st p a rt . ADV HULLEY SC: Okay let us go to page 186 to look at w h a t yo u r c o n cl u s i o n i s. M R J U LY : N o , n o I k n o w m y c o n cl u si o n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. M R J U LY : 10 I a m s a yi n g y o u s a i d – a st a t e m e n t t h e r e i s something that you said. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d i d n o t h e a r t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n . ADV HULLEY SC: Sesoko, Mr They – you would be aware that Mr Khuba and Mr M c B ri d e had expressed u n h a p p i n e s s. M R J U LY : C o r r e c t . ADV HULLEY SC: P a rt i c u l a rl y a b o u t t h e f a ct t h a t y o u c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n a s e x p r e s s e d i n p a r a g ra p h 6 . 4 . 5 o n p a g e 1 8 6 o f t h e – o f y o u r re p o rt t h a t y o u re c o m m e n d e d t h a t o n e o f the three of them. 20 M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: Wa s g u i l t y – m a y b e g u i l t y a n d ch a r g e d c ri m i n a l l y f o r d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e o r o b st ru ct i n g t h e a d m i n i st r a t i o n o f j u st i c e a n d t h a t d i s ci p l i n a r y c h a rg e s b e b r o u g h t a g a i n st t h e m i n t h e i r c a p a ci t y a s e m p l o y e e s. M R J U LY : T h a t i s o n e o f t h e co n c e r n s b u t o f c o u r s e w h e n Page 15 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e y c a m e t o t h e c o m m i s si o n , t h e y s a i d a l o t o f t h i n g s. ADV HULLEY SC: N o t h a t i s n o d o u b t t ru e b u t t h a t w a s t h e i r p ri m a r y c o n c e r n t h a t yo u h a d c o m e t o t h a t c o n cl u si o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. B u t t h e r e i s a l so a c o n c e r n w h y We r k sm a n s was appointed. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. M R J U LY : I t i s a n i s s u e t h a t w a s m u st b e d e a l t w i t h a s t o w h y We r k s m a n s w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a p ri v a t e l a w f i r m . So I d o n o t w a n t t o l i m i t t h i s t o w h a t y o u a l r e a d y k n o w. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. M R J U LY : I t i s m o r e t h a n t h a t . A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w l e t u s co n si d e r – l e t u s c o n si d e r t h e c o n cl u si o n that you have come to. Yo u came to the c o n cl u si o n t h a t … M R J U LY : A n d w h a t p a g e i s t h a t ? ADV HULLEY SC: Page 186 of the same bundle. CHAIRPERSON: Page 186? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 1 8 6 M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R J U LY : Yu p . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u s a y a t p a r a g ra p h 6 . 4 . 5 . “ T h a t i n t h e a b se n c e o f a n y i n f o r m a t i o n a s t o w h i c h o f t h e t h r e e c o - si g n a t o r i e s w e r e r e s p o n si b l e f o r t h e d e l e t i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e f i r st r e p o rt w e r e co m m e n d t h a t K h u b a , M c B ri d e a n d S e s o k o b e c h a r g e d c ri m i n a l l y f o r d e f e a t i n g t h e Page 16 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 e n d s o f j u st i c e o r o b st r u ct i n g t h e a d m i n i st r a t i o n o f j u st i c e a n d t h a t d i s ci p l i n a r y c h a r g e s b e b r o u g h t a g a i n st t h e m i n t h e i r c a p a ci t y a s e m p l o y e e s. ” M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w l e t u s j u st c o n si d e r t h a t . M R J U LY : J a . ADV HULLEY SC: I f y o u c o u l d t a k e u s t h ro u g h h o w y o u c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u si o n t h a t t h e y w e re g u i l t y o f t h o s e – o f t h a t s p e ci f i c c h a r g e o r r a t h e r t h a t y o u r e c o m m e n d – m a d e a 10 re c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t o n e o f t h e t h r e e o f t h e m m a y b e g u i l t y of that charge. M R J U LY : C h a i r t h e q u e st i o n i s g o i n g t o b e – t h e a n s w e r i s g o i n g t o b e a l o n g a n s w e r. B u t I w i l l t r y … CHAIRPERSON: Ja try to… M R J U LY : I w i l l t r y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr y t o – M R J U LY : I w i l l t r y t o b e s h o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t o b e – t o b e – j a g i v e t h e g i st . M R J U LY : C h a i r y o u w o u l d – 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I t h i n k w e a r e a l l l a w y e r s h e r e . T h e m a n d a t e t h e c o - m a n d a t e o f I P I D i s st i p u l a t e d i n S e ct i o n 2 8 . co-mandate. That is the Anything else that they do it is secondary to the co-mandate. And co-mandate tells you what is it that they are supposed to do. They are supposed to do the Page 17 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 i n v e st i g a t i o n . And what do they do with the investigation y o u co m e u p w i t h a r e p o rt . N o w t h e q u e st i o n n o w i s w h a t i s i t t h a t t h e y w e r e i n v e st i g a t i n g ? K h u b a w a s i n ve st i g a t i n g re n d i t i o n . What is t h a t r e n d i t i o n ? I k n o w M cB ri d e w a n t s t o m a k e a r e n d i t i o n a n A m e r i ca n c o n c e p t . R e n d i t i o n i s re n d i t i o n . And it is an i l l e g a l t r a n s p o rt a t i o n o f f u g i t i v e s f r o m o n e c o u n t r y t o a n o t h e r c o u n t r y. When you supposed to do that you supposed to do it 10 t h r o u g h n o r m a l p ro c e s s e s w h i c h i s l e g a l p r o c e s s e s. There m u st b e e xt ra d i t i o n o f a p e r s o n f r o m o n e c o u n t r y t o a n o t h e r c o u n t r y. Yo u d o n o t d o i t b y j u st a rr e st i n g p e o p l e a n d p u t i t – and hand over to other people – I mean to another a u t h o ri t y t h a t b e l o n g s t o a n o t h e r c o u n t r y. Not only that you also allow the police from another c o u n t r y t o co m e a n d d o p o l i ci n g i n S o u t h A f ri c a . So for a n yo n e t o b e a b l e t o u n d e r st a n d w h y w e r e c o m m e n d e d w h a t w e re c o m m e n d e d y o u n e e d t o u n d e r st a n d t h e i s su e o f w h a t i s i t t h a t w a s b e i n g i n v e st i g a t e d ? 20 with what was done? Wa s t h e r e a n yt h i n g w r o n g A n d w e k n o w t h a t – t h e y c o n cl u d e b y s a yi n g – w h e n I a m s a yi n g t h e y c o n cl u d e I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e 1 8 M a r ch r e p o rt w h i c h w a s si g n e d b y M c B ri d e o n t h e 9 A p ri l w h i c h s a y s: “ O n l y o n e p e r s o n ” T h e y a r e n o t s a yi n g t h e r e i s n o r e n d i t i o n b u t t h e y s a yi n g o n l y o n e p e r so n i s re s p o n si b l e f o r t h a t . A n d t h at p e r s o n i s j u st a c a p t a i n . A n d Page 18 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 that captain was able to amass such resources that took o v e r – t h a t o p e r a t i o n t o o k o v e r t w o m o n t h s – a ct u a l l y t h re e . I t w a s N o ve m b e r, D e c e m b e r a n d Ja n u a r y. Although two h a p p e n e d i n N o v e m b e r y o u n e e d e d s e ri o u s r e s o u r c e s t h a t y o u ca n n o t j u st a s a ca p t a i n y o u h a v e t h e m . S o t h a t i s w h e r e t h e i s s u e c o m e s. We n e e d t o t a l k a b o u t w h e r e d o e s t h e l e g a l i t y st a rt o r i l l e g a l i t y st a rt ? i l l e g a l i t y st a rt w i t h t h e r e n d i t i o n . A n d t h e q u e st i o n i s w h o was involved? At what level were they involved? 10 The you then say what then did IPID do? Right. And The IPID then did the i n v e st i g a t i o n . A t w h a t p o i n t w a s t h e r e co m m e n d a t i o n w h i c h was made on the 22 March was changed? I can tell you now C h a i r t h e y d i d n o t b e c a u se o f M c B ri d e ’s e m p l o y m e n t a t I P I D w e w o u l d b e h a vi n g a 2 2 J a n u a r y re p o rt . We w o u l d n o t b e here. We w o u l d b e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y r e p o rt . And for anybody who comes here and want to tell this c o m m i s si o n t h a t t h o se re p o rt s m e a n n o t h i n g t h o se p e o p l e d o not deserve to be in IPID. 20 B e c a u s e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t h a t i s d o n e b y I P I D i s d o n e i n t e rm s o f S e ct i o n … CHAIRPERSON: No, no I do not think anybody has said t h o se r e p o rt s m e a n n o t h i n g . I d o n o t t h i n k a n y b o d y h a s. M R J U LY : T h e y sa i d t h e y d o n o t h a v e a n y l e g a l st a t u s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l t h a t m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g e l s e . Page 19 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t t h a t n e c e s s a ri l y m e a n s. M R J U LY : T h e y s a i d t h e y m a y b e i g n o r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y m e a n n o t h i n g . Yo u k n o w. M R J U LY : B y n o t h i n g t h e r e i s a c o n t e xt h e r e C h a i r. This s a y s w e m a k e r e p o rt s a n d t h e se re p o rt s t h e y d o n o t h a ve t o b e c o n si d e r e d . I h a ve m e t a n u m b e r o f p ro s e c u t o r s w h o s a i d t o m e t h a t i s h i m n o w K h u b a . I m e t a n u m b e r o f p ro s e c u t o r s 10 w h o sa i d t o m e t h e y d o n o t e ve n c o n si d e r t h e se r e p o r t s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l t h a t – t h a t I – t h a t s o m e b o d y d i d s a y. I t h i n k s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. I t h i n k t h e i m p r e s si o n I h a ve a t l e a st f r o m o n e o r m o r e o f t h e w i t n e s se s i s t h a t t h e y w e r e s a yi n g o r s o m e b o d y s a i d w e m a ke t h e se r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p r o s e c u t o r s, t h e N PA l o o k s a t t h e m b u t t h e y m u st – t h e y a re n o t b o u n d b y t h e m . 20 They look at t h e m a n d I a m p a r a p h r a si n g n o w. M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Make – make out of them what they make. M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But we make them. I g o t t h e i m p r e s si o n w h a t t h e y – t h a t w h a t t h e y a re s a y i n g i s i f t h e N PA t a k e s a Page 20 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 d i ff e r e n t vi e w w e a c c e p t t h a t . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: re c o m m e n d that If the is fine. N PA g o e s a l o n g We do not with fight what we over the re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t o s a y w e r e c o m m e n d e d t h i s w h y d o yo u do something else? T h a t i s t h e i m p r e s si o n I g o t f ro m t h e e vi d e n c e . M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. s a yi n g t w o t h i n g s . 10 s a yi n g about They are T h e y a re s a yi n g e x a ct l y w h a t y o u a r e re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. accepted. C h a i r I c a n re s p o n d t h e re . R e co m m e n d a t i o n s are They can be accepted they cannot be But we accept – we are at the same page. But t h e s e c o n d p a rt i s a p e r s o n c o m e s h e r e a n d p r o u d l y t e l l s yo u t h a t h e m e e t s o t h e r p r o s e cu t o r s w h o t e l l t h e m . T h e y d o n o t e v e n l o o k a t t h e s e re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. A n d yo u w o r k f o r t h e i n st i t u t i o n w h i ch h a s b e e n r e c o r d e d h e r e a n d w h i c h I a g re e w i t h t h a t i s a c o n st i t u t i o n a l b o d y e st a b l i s h e d i n t e r m s o f S e ct i o n 2 0 6 o f t h e C o n st i t u t i o n . Only for that purpose to do i n v e st i g a t i o n s. A n d t h o s e i n v e st i g a t i o n s m u st h a v e re p o rt s. 20 A n d y o u w a n t t o m a k e t h o s e r e p o rt s t o l o o k l i k e i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t – a n d y o u p ro u d l y s a y t h a t . C h a i r a n d y o u d o n o t s e e a n yt h i n g w r o n g a b o u t t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: We l l yo u s e e w e h a v e g o t t o m a k e a d i st i n ct i o n a s t o w h a t t h e l e g a l p o si t i o n m a y b e a b o u t t h o s e re p o rt s. Page 21 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h a t m a y b e h a p p e n i n g a t a p ra ct i c a l l e v e l b e t w e e n I P I D a n d p r o s e c u t o r s. I t m a y w e l l b e t h a t i t i s t ru e t h o s e w h o sa y t h e y h a v e h e a r d a l o t o f p r o s e c u t o r s w h o s a y t h e y d o n o t e v e n c o n si d e r t h e m . Maybe that is true. M a y b e a l o t o f p ro s e c u t o r s d o n o t p l a c e m u c h w e i g h t o n them. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e t h e r t h a t i s t h e i r ri g h t t o d o t h a t o r 10 not that might be another issue. S o i t m i g ht si m p l y b e t h a t a t a p r a ct i c a l l e v e l t h e r e m a y b e a ce rt a i n a t t i t u d e t o w a r d s t h o se r e p o rt s b y c e rt a i n p r o s e cu t o r s p ro b a b l y n o t a l l a t a p r a ct i c a l l e v e l . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : We l l C h a i r t h e c o n t e xt – t h e d e si g n w h y t h a t a n s w e r i s g i v e n i s g i v e n t o g i v e t h e i m p re s s i o n t h a t w h y a r e y o u m a ki n g a n i s s u e a b o u t a r e p o r t ? A s i f t h i s r e p o rt b i n d s s o m e b o d y e l s e w h e n t h e s e p e o p l e c a n j u st d e ci d e t o i g n o r e 20 t h e se r e p o rt s. I a m s a yi n g e ve n i f t h a t i s t r u e i t i s w r o n g f o r a p e r s o n w h o i s e m p l o y e d t o d o t h a t j o b c o m e s h e re t o t h i s c o m m i s si o n i n o r d e r t o j u st i f y w h a t h e w a n t s t o s a y s e e m t o a l i g n i n g h i m s e l f w i t h t h a t t y p e o f c o n d u ct . That is all what I a m s a yi n g C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o I u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u a r e sa yi n g Page 22 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a n d – a n d o b vi o u s l y I h a v e t o l o o k a t w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But I do not want us as lawyers and judges t o f o r g e t t h a t c e rt a i n p e o p l e w h o a r e p u t i n c e rt a i n p o si t i o n s m a y n o t h a v e t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e l e g a l kn o w l e d g e t h a t w e h a ve w h e n t h e y a r e n o t l a w y e r s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: T h e y m a y b e a d o p t i n g ce rt a i n p o si t i o n s a n d d e a l i n g w i t h m a t t e r s t o t h e b e s t o f t h e i r u n d e r st a n d i n g . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: W h i c h m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t b e c o r r e ct b u t t h e y j u st r e f l e ct w h a t t h e y u n d e r st a n d t o b e t h e p o si t i o n . M R J U LY : I u n d e r st a n d . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t i s t h e o n l y p a rt I w a n t u s t o re m e m b e r. M R J U LY : I u n d e r st a n d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. I f I u n d e r st a n d yo u c o r r e ct l y a n d c e r t a i n l y, I t h i n k i n y o u r a ff i d a vi t y o u h a ve 20 a rt i c u l a t e d it quite well you h a ve spoken about the i m p o rt a n ce o f t h e I P I D R e p o rt s. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d t o p a r a p h r a s e a s cl o s e l y a s I re c a l l y o u r st a t e m e n t i n yo u r a ff i d a vi t y o u h a v e s a i d t h e I P I D re p o rt s m e a n s so m e t h i n g . Page 23 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: And when you say that you – of course y o u m a ki n g t h e p o i n t t h a t a s a m a t t e r o f l a w. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h e y h a v e g o t w e i g h t a n d y o u m a ki n g t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t t o b e t a k e n i n t o a c co u n t . B e c a u se – a s a m a t t e r o f l a w. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 N o w t h e – a n d w i t h o u t d e l vi n g t o o m u ch i n t o t h e l e g i sl a t i o n p e r se i f I u n d e r st a n d y o u c o r r e ct l y y o u b a si n g t h a t o n y o u r r e a d i n g o f t h e I P I D A ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s n o t o n l y t h a t C h a i r t h e r e i s a n I P I D A ct 2 0 11 A ct . Yo u h a v e r e g u l a t i o n s. Yo u h a ve S O P t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i o n s P r o c e d u r e s. Th e A ct w i l l t e l l y o u t h a t t h e re m u st re g u l a t i o n s. A n d t h e r e g u l a t i o n s i n t h e s a m e A ct i t t e l l s y o u t h a t i n S e ct i o n 3 4 o f t h a t A ct t h e r e m u st b e st a n d a r d operations i n st r u m e n t s p r o c e d u r e s. in totality So the i n v e st i g a t o r s h o u l d b e d o n e . 20 when procedure you look explains at t h e se what T h a t i s t h e r e g u l a t i o n s. the The A ct e x p l a i n s t o y o u h o w d o y o u g o a b o u t a p p o i n t i n g t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s a n d w h a t a r e t h e i r r e s p o n si b i l i t i e s. The SOP t h e n t e l l s y o u w h a t t h e n i n t e rn a l l y a l t h o u g h i t i s a n i n t e r n a l d o cu m e n t i t i s a n i n t e r n a l d o cu m e n t w h i c h co m e s o u t a s a re s u l t o f t h e A ct w h i c h s e t s o u t h o w t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n g o e s a n d w h o h a s t h e p o w e r s t o s i g n t h e r e p o rt . A n d I a m s a yi n g Page 24 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h i s i s s u e o f t h e r e p o rt yo u ca n n o t a v o i d t o l o o k a t h o w d i d t h i s r e p o rt c o m e a b o u t ? What happened to t h i s r e p o rt ? W h a t w a s t h e re a s o n f o r i t t o c h a n g e ? T h e n a l l t h o se i s s u e s c a n n o t b e j u st i s s u e s o f c o m m o n s e n s e , a r e i s s u e s t h a t m u st b e a n s w e r e d b y l o o ki n g a t t h e l e g i sl a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : S o i t i s n o t j u st t h e A ct . A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re . M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: S o i f I u n d e r st a n d yo u c o r r e ct l y, y o u a r e l o o ki n g a t t h r e e i n st ru m e n t s? M R J U LY : J a . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e A ct , t h e r e g u l a t i o n s, t h e S O P ? M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d t h e p r o c e s s b y w h i c h t h e s e re p o rt s, t h e f i r st r e p o rt w a s a m e n d e d , a s y o u s a y, t o g i v e ri s e t o t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt ? M R J U LY : T h e f i r st p a rt i s h o w i t w a s p r o d u ce d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. 20 M R J U LY : A n d w h a t m a k e s i t a f i n a l o r c o m p l e t e . B e c a u s e I want to be very careful. B e ca u s e p e o p l e c a n h e a r a n d u s e terminology which is not there. I want to be careful about t h a t b e c a u s e w e t a l k a b o u t c o m p l e t e d re p o rt o r p r e l i m i n a r y re p o rt , ri g h t ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re . Page 25 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : So I mean... S o r ry. preliminary investigation. C o m p l e t e d i n ve st i g a t i o n o r A n d w e t a l k a b o u t . . . t h e r e a re t h r e e t y p e s o f re p o rt s i n I P I D , C h a i r. T h r e e t yp e s o f r e p o rt s. re p o rt . IPID. T h e f i r st r e p o rt i s a n i n t e r i m T h e r e i s n o s u c h t h i n g a s a p r o vi si o n a l r e p o rt i n T h e r e i s n o s u c h t h i n g a s a p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o rt . T h e r e i s n o s u c h t h i n g a s a d r a f t r e p o rt . re p o rt . Yo u h a v e a n i n t e ri m W h a t t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt d o e s, i t b e c o m e s w h a t w e c a l l t h e f i n a l i n v e s t i g a t i ve r e p o rt . 10 T h e o t h e r r e p o rt i s w h a t t h e y c a l l cl o s ur e r e p o rt . That cl o s u r e r e p o rt t a l k s a b o u t t h e a r c h i vi n g o f t h e d o c u m e n t within IPID. N o w t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n i s c o m p l e t e , t h e c o u rt s h a ve m a d e t h e i r d e ci s i o n s o n t h e m a t t e r. N o w t h e q u e st i o n i s, h o w d o w e cl o s e t h i s f i l e ? W h o h a s t h e p o w e r s t o g i v e t h e f i n a l s a y o n t h e cl o s u r e o f t h a t f i l e ? T h o s e a r e t h e t h re e r e p o rt s. Anybody who comes up w i t h a n o t h e r t e r m o f a r e p o rt a n d t a l k a b o u t d ra f t r e p o rt a n d t a l k a b o u t p r e l i m i n a r y re p o rt , p r o vi si o n a l r e p o rt . . . 20 I do not know where that comes from. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Yo u sa y i t i s a n i n v e st i g a t e . . . i t i s a n i n t e ri m r e p o rt ? M R J U LY : Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: T h e n a f t e r t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt , w h i c h o n e comes? Page 26 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : I t i s t h e f i n a l . CHAIRPERSON: The final... M R J U LY : I t i s f i n a l i n ve st i g a t i v e r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : T h o s e a r e t w o re p o rt s i n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, t h e y a r e t w o re p o rt s. M R J U LY : . . . i n cl o s u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e cl o s u r e i s s o m e t h i n g e l s e . M R J U LY : I t i s a n e t e r n a l d o c u m e n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, j u st t o s a y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: . . . o ff i ci a l l y w e h a v e n o t h i n g f u rt h e r t o d o o n t h i s m a t t e r. M R J U LY : E x a ct l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. N o w, t h e re f e re n c e t o i n t e ri m a n d f i n a l . I s t h a t i n t h e l e g i sl a t i o n o r i n t h e a ct o r r e g u l a t i o n s? M R J U LY : I t i s i n t h e S t a n d a rd O p e ra t i o n s P r o c e d u r e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, c a n w e g o t h e r e ? M R J U LY : I t g o e s. . . i f yo u g o t o t h e d e f i n i t i o n s i n t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i o n s P r o ce d u re . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y s h o u l d b e a b l e t o d i r e ct u s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: B u t i f yo u a re a b l e t o r e m e m b e r, t h a t i s Page 27 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 fine. ADV HULLEY SC: T h e f i r st t h i n g i s. If I can be of a s si st a n c e . We c a n t u r n t o p a g e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y, yo u r m i c i s ra t h e r f a r f r o m yo u . A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: S o w h e n i t i s f a r f r o m y o u , I ca n n o t h e a r you well. A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e , M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : J u st f o r y o u r b e n e f i t M r C h a i r a n d f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f M r J u l y, i s a l e g i sl a t i o n b u n d l e t h a t h a s a l s o b e e n p a rt o f t h e E x h i b i t Y S e ri e s. O f co u r s e , i t d o e s n o t b e a r a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r a n d t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k s o m e b o d y m u st a s si st M r J u l y t o find the level arch file that has got legislation. Oh, are you able to see it? M R J U LY : Yo u j u st s a i d ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s t h e l e g i sl a t i o n b u n d l e . I t w o u l d h a v e o n t h e s p i n e L e g i sl a t i o n a n d A u t h o ri t i e s. 20 It is likely to be at t h e e xt r e m e ri g h t . M R J U LY : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, I have got the a ct . It is at . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: And then . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 28 of 255 at page 148 is the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Ja, 148. Oh, those are the regulations at 1 4 8 , i s t h a t so ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o , t h e s e a r e t h e . . . t h i s i s t h e st a t u t e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, this is the statute. O h , I se e d o w n . . . a b o u t t h e m i d d l e , i t i s s a yi n g R e g u l a t i o n s u n d e r t h i s A ct . A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e , M r C h a i r ? CHAIRPERSON: No, I was seeing where it says in the m i d d l e o f p a g e 1 4 8 R e g u l a t i o n s u n d e r t h i s A ct . Th a t i s w h y I w a s t h i n k i n g i t i s r e g u l a t i o n s. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s, I se e t h a t . I a m a ct u a l l y n o t s u r e w h y t h a t i s s o . T h a t i s w i l l h a v e t o e d i t o r s. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , a t 1 5 0 i t s a y s “i n t h i s a ct u n l e s s c o n t e xt i n d i c a t e s o t h e r w i s e ” [ l a u g h i n g ] A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: So it m u st be the a ct . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] something. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k w e a r e l o o ki n g a t . . . w e s h o u l d b e l o o ki n g a t t h e r e g u l a t i o n s, s h o u l d w e n o t b e ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h e r e g u l a t i o n s . . . i f yo u w o u l d t u rn w i t h m e M r C h a i r t o t h e f i l e D i vi d e r 1 9 a t p a g e 4 4 5 . M R J U LY : I h a v e g o t i t . ADV HULLEY SC: Of the same bundle. Page 29 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u h a v e g o t i t ? M R J U LY : T h e n u m b e r ? ADV HULLEY SC: 445. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 405? A D V H U L L E Y S C : D o u b l e f o u r f i v e M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 445? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: And then, as far as the Standard O p e r a t i n g P r o c e d u r e s a r e co n c e rn e d . I f yo u w o u l d b e a r w i t h m e , I w i l l l o c a t e i t s p e c i f i c b e ca u s e t h e r e i s i n c o m p l e t e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P ro c e d u r e s. I w a n t t o p ro v i d e y o u w i t h t h e c o m p l e t e s e t M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: S o rr y. Yo u sa y t h i s i s. . . t h e s e r e g u l a t i o n s a r e n o t co m p l e t e ? ADV HULLEY SC: No, these regulations are complete. CHAIRPERSON: Are complete, ja. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 So you w a n t t o l o o k a t t h e t h re e i n st r u m e n t s t h a t t h e w i t n e s s h a s r e f e r r e d t o . I t i s t h e A ct , t h e r e g u l a t i o n s a n d t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o ce d u re s. As far as the Standard Operating P r o ce d u r e s c o n ce r n e d , t h e c o p y t h a t I h a d w a s i n c o m p l e t e . p r o vi d e M r Ju l y w i t h a c o m p l e t e co p y. with me? Page 30 of 255 are I want to I f y o u w i l l j u st b e a r 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: We l l , the p a rt relating to Standard O p e r a t i n g P r o c e d u r e s, i s i t p a rt t w o o f w h a t i s n o t t h e re ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e , M r C h a i r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p a rt t h a t d e a l s w i t h t h e st a n d a r d . . . o h , b u t I t h i n k t h e p a rt t h a t w e a re l o o ki n g f o r i n t h e S t a n d a r d Operating Procedures is the one that talks about what types o f r e p o rt s a re c o n t e m p l a t e d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: Is it not in what we have? 10 ADV HULLEY SC: I t i s n o t t h e . . . b e ca u s e t h e o t h e r w i t n e s s h a s r e f e r r e d t o a d d i t i o n a l a s p e ct s. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, oh. ADV HULLEY SC: I u n d e r st a n d M r J u l y i s a l s o g o i n g t o re f e r t o t h e a d d i t i o n a l a s p e ct s. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. ADV HULLEY SC: So ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: B u t M r J u l y, d o y o u h a p p e n t o h a ve t h e re l e v a n t p a rt s f ro m . . . . ? Ma y b e h e s h o u l d j u st r e a d t o u s t h e re l e v a n t p a rt . 20 M R J U LY : [ I n d i st i n ct ] [ Mi c r o p h o n e n o t t u r n e d o n ] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s w i t ch o n y o u r m i c a n d y o u c a n k e e p i t o n M r J u l y. J a , k e e p i t o n f o r t h e t i m e . J a . M R J U LY : O h , o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ma y b e y o u c a n j u st r e a d u s. . . t o r e a d t h e Page 31 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 re l e v a n t p a rt s o f t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : T h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h e i n t e r i m a n d t h e f i n a l r e p o rt s ? M R J U LY : I t s a y s C h a i r: “ T h e c a s e i n v e st i g a t i ve re p o rt r e f e r s t o i n v e st i g a t i v e re p o rt that i n cl u d e the i n t e ri m case . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u a r e r e a d i n g f r o m w h a t p a rt o f t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o ce d u re s ? 10 M R J U LY : J a , t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P ro c e d u r e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y h a v e l i ke . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : B u t n o o n e . . . i t i s n o t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . . n o t l i k e p a r a g r a p h o r a n yt h i n g . M R J U LY : [ I n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e d e f i n i t i o n cl a u se . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A l ri g h t . M R J U LY : T h e d e f i n i t i o n c l a u s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : Ye s. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t , a l ri g h t . J u st re a d , j a . M R J U LY : A n d i t t a l k s a b o u t t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt , f i n a l c a s e , i n v e st i g a t e r e p o rt , a s w e l l a s, c l o s u re r e p o rt . T h a t i s w h a t i t s a y s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s. M R J U LY : S o t h e p o i n t I w a s m a ki n g i n a d d i t i o n t o t h a t Page 32 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? M R J U LY : . . . y o u w i l l n o t r e a d a n y w o rd h e r e e v e n i f i t i s n o t i n cl u d e d here which talks to the preliminary r e p o rt . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O r p r o vi si o n a l r e p o rt . M R J U LY : . . . w h i c h t a l k s p ro v i si o n a l r e p o rt , w h i c h t a l k s t o t h e d r a f t r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R J U LY : Yo u w i l l k n o w w h e r e t o f i n d i t . CHAIRPERSON: Do the Standard Operating Procedures d e f i n e w h a t a n i n t e r i m r e p o rt i s ? M R J U LY : I t h i n k i t d o e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: What is final. M R J U LY : I t d o e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o j u st r e a d t h a t p o i n t t h e r e ? M R J U LY : I w i l l d o t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, please. Ja. M R J U LY : T h e n i t d e f i n e s t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt C h a i r t o m e a n . . . 20 let me go there. “I n t e ri m c a s e p r e s e n t a t i v e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt m e a n s a ca s e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt w h e r e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s h a ve b e e n c o m p l e t e d b u t w h e r e a re c o m m e n d a t i o n cannot be made t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt s. to the DPP due to o u t st a n d i n g H o w e v e r, r e c o m m e n d a t i o n m a y b e Page 33 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 made to the SAPS...” I t h i n k t h a t i s w h e re I n e e d t o e x p l a i n t o y o u n o w C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: It is fine. MR J U LY : When p o s si b i l i t i e s. IPID i n v e st i g a t e s, there T h e i n ve st i g a t e a c ri m i n a l p a rt . are two T h e y a l so i n v e st i g a t e t h e m i s c o n d u ct p a rt . S o w h e n t h e y i n v e st i g a t e t h e m i s c o n d u ct p a rt o r b o t h a n d t h e y h a v e g o t a n i n t e ri m r e p o rt , t h e y c a n n o t m a k e re c o m m e n d a t i o n o n t h e c ri m i n a l p a rt . 10 qualify as an i n t e ri m re p o rt T h e n t h a t r e p o rt w i l l b e c a u se it does not have re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. I t i s t h e i n t e ri m r e p o rt . B u t t h e o n e . . . t h a t v e r y i n t e ri m re p o rt c a n b e r e g a r d e d a s a f i n a l r e p o rt f o r m i s c o n d u ct p u r p o s e s. That is why it g o e s t o S A P S f o r S A P S t o d i s ci p l i n e i t s o w n e m p l o y e e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : p u r p o s e s. Ye s. S o i n t e ri m r e p o rt c a n b e u s e d f o r t w o O n e , i t i s a re p o rt i n g w i t h o u t r e co m m e n d a t i o n s which does not go to the DPP or even if it goes but it re m a i n s a n i n t e ri m r e p o rt . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w, I h o p e s o m e b o d y i n yo u r t e a m M r H u l l e y w i l l b e w o r ki n g t o g e t u s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P ro c e d u r e s. Page 34 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V H U L L E Y S C : I w i l l p r o vi d e y o u w i t h i t s h o rt l y M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u re I u n d e r st a n d t h e d e f i n i t i o n M r J u l y. For many of us here in the room, i n t e ri m m e a n s p r o vi si o n a l i n t h e s e n se t h a t w e t h i n k a b o u t a n i n t e ri m o r d e r. M R J U LY : Ji p . CHAIRPERSON: It is an order that may be... that may need t o b e c o n f i r m e d l a t e r o r d i s ch a r g e d , y o u k n o w. M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d o e s n o t r e p r e s e n t a f i n a l vi e w. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : I a g r e e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: That ...[intervenes] M R J U LY : T h a t i s . . . I a g r e e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Because of our legal background. M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w, w h a t I a m t r yi n g t o u n d e r st a n d is whether that is the same meaning that is contemplated 20 about an i n t e ri m re p o rt in the Standard Operating P r o c e d u r e s o r w h e t h e r i n t e ri m re p o rt d o e s n o t c a rr y t h a t meaning. I n o t h e r w o rd s, i t m a y b e ca l l e d i n t e ri m f o r a l l i n t e n s e and purposes it is final. T h a t i s w h a t I a m t r yi n g t o u n d e r st a n d . Page 35 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : N o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: In terms of the Standard Operating P r o c e d u r e s. M R J U LY : Not. No, it is final insofar as it relates to m i s c o n d u ct p a rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : I n s o f a r a s i t re l a t e s t o t h e c ri m i n a l p a rt o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , i t i s n o t f i n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y. 10 MR J U LY : It is i n t e ri m . It does not even have re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Yo u d o n o t e v e n k n o w w h a t i s t h i s p e r s o n ’s p ri m a f a ci e vi si o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : I t c o u l d m e a n t h a t y o u h a v e j u st c o l l e ct e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , w e h a v e g o t e vi d e n c e a n d i t i s st i l l c a l l e d a re p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. 20 M R J U LY : B e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t h a v e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Operating So P r o ce d u r e s, as the yo u u n d e r st a n d p r o vi si o n s the re l a t i n g Standard to interim re p o rt , t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t m a k e s i t i n t e ri m i s t h e a b s e n ce o f Page 36 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s? M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d o e s i t . . . a s y o u u n d e r st a n d t h o se p r o vi si o n s i n t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P ro c e d u r e s, d o t h e y s e e m t o r e st ri ct a n i n t e r i m r e p o rt t o t h e c ri m i n a l p a r t o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i n g o f t h e r e p o rt ? M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: contemplate T h e r e f o r e , i n o t h e r w o r d s, i t d o e s n o t that a r e p o rt that does not have re c o m m e n d a t i o n s o r i n r e g a r d t o m i s c o n d u ct , w o u l d a l s o b e . . . w o u l d a l s o f a l l w i t h i n t h e d e f i n i t i o n o f i n t e ri m r e p o rt ? M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t h o w y o u u n d e r st a n d i t ? M R J U LY : T h i s i s h o w I u n d e r st a n d i t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R J U LY : T h e r e i s i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t w o u l d b e m i s si n g . It d o e s n o t j u st b e c o m e i n t e ri m b e c a u s e I w a n t t o c a l l i t 20 i n t e ri m . W h a t t h a t i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t w o u l d b e m i s si n g , i s mention, that they co u l d be technical r e p o rt s that are o u t st a n d i n g . B e c a u s e t h e t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt i s o u t st a n d i n g , t h e n i t re m a i n s a n i n t e ri m f o r c ri m i n a l p u rp o s e s b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o t t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt . Page 37 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 B u t t h a t ve r y r e p o rt , yo u c a n m a k e r e co m m e n d a t i o n s w i t h o u t a t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt t o t h e S A P S f o r p u r p o se s o f m i s c o n d u ct . Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e c ri m i n a l p a rt , y o u c a n n o t m a ke a re c o m m e n d a t i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Yo u ca n n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a t t h a t st a g e . M R J U LY : Yo u ca n n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R J U LY : Yo u ca n n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, it is interim. M R J U LY : I t i s i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: If and when you get to the records . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : T h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] , y e s. CHAIRPERSON: T h e n i t c a n b e . . . i t se i z e s t o b e i n t e ri m , o n ce yo u h a v e g o t t h a t a n d m a d e . . . a n d t h e n y o u p u t i n y o u r 20 re c o m m e n d a t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r. . . j a . M R J U LY : T h e n i t b e c o m e s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n i t b e c o m e s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt . M R J U LY : O n c e y o u h a v e t h a t o u t st a n d i n g i n f o rm a t i o n Page 38 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 w h i c h i s s p e ci f i c a l l y m e n t i o n e d w h i c h i s t h e i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t i s o u t st a n d i n g w h i c h m a k e s a re p o rt a n i n t e ri m , t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o c e d u r e s m a ke s i t v e r y cl e a r w h a t t y p e o f i n f o r m a t i o n i s t h a t . I t i s o n l y a t e ch n i c a l r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t e c h n i c a l re p o rt . Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : T h a t m a k e s i t i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : A n d s o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r C h a i r. . . so r ry, f o r y o u r b e n e f i t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja? ADV HULLEY SC: Th e re l e v a n t d o c u m e n t i s a t p a g e 1 5 4 2 . This is of LEA4. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: LEA4 and it is at page 1542 of that b u n d l e . I t i s p a rt o f a n n e x u r e . . . o r E x h i b i t Y 8 D . CHAIRPERSON: S o l e t u s co n t i n u e M r J u l y w h i l e I a m l o o ki n g a t t h a t . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A t l e a st o n yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g , i f I P I D p r o vi d e s a r e p o rt a n d i n r e g a r d t o . . . a n d t h e r e p o rt d e a l s w i t h t h e c ri m i n a l p a rt a n d t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y p a rt , i f i n r e g a r d t o t h e cri m i n a l p a rt t h e r e i s a t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt st i l l o u t st a n d i n g , t h e n t h a t r e p o rt i s i n t e ri m . M R J U LY : I n t e ri m , y e s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t d o e s. . . d o t h e p r o vi si o n s c o n t e m p l a t e Page 39 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h a t y o u r e f e r re d t o t h a t r e p o rt a s i n t e ri m e v e n i f i n r e g a r d t o t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s i t i s f i n a l ? M R J U LY : I t s e e m s t o s u g g e st . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h a t b e ca u s e t h e r e i s a n o u t st a n d i n g r e p o rt f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c ri m i n a l p a rt . M R J U LY : . . . f o r p u r p o s e s o f c ri m i n a l p a rt . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M R J U LY : B u t y o u c a n st i l l m a ke re c o m m e n d a t i o n s f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : A d i s ci p l i n a r y. M R J U LY : . . . o f a d i s ci p l i n a r y h e a ri n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : Mi s c o n d u ct , y e s. CHAIRPERSON: information information in Ye s, y e s. relation that is to S o o n c e t h e re i s o u t s t a n d i n g the c ri m i n a l o u t st a n d i n g is p a rt and the information as c o n t e m p l a t e d i n t h e d e f i n i t i o n o f i n t e ri m r e p o rt , n a m e l y a 20 t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt , t h e n t h a t r e p o rt i s i n t e ri m ? M R J U LY : I t i s i n t e ri m . CHAIRPERSON: It does not matter that in regard to the d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s, t h e re i s n o t h i n g o u t st a n d i n g ? M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: A n d o n y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g , i f i n r e g a r d t o Page 40 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e c ri m i n a l p a rt t h e r e i s n o re p o rt o u t st a n d i n g , t e c h n i ca l re p o rt s o u t st a n d i n g a n d t h e r e i s a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n b u t i n re g a r d t o t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s, t h e r e i s st i l l s o m e t h i n g o u t st a n d i n g and there is no re c o m m e n d a t i o n on the d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s, w o u l d t h a t o n yo u r. . . w o u l d t h a t re p o rt o n yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g f a l l u n d e r i n t e ri m o r w h e re w o u l d i t fall? M R J U LY : I t w i l l st i l l b e i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w i l l st i l l b e i n t e r i m ? 10 M R J U LY : O n c e i t d o e s n o t h a v e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e r yt h i n g ? M R J U LY : . . . r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. CHAIRPERSON: O n ce it does not h a ve the re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. M R J U LY : H a ve r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : E v e n f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f d i s ci p l i n a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : 20 I f i t d o e s n o t h a ve re c o m m e n d a t i o n s, i t w i l l re m a i n a n i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. O k a y, o k a y. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV HULLEY SC: benefit Mr J u l y, T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. the paginated d o cu m e nt Page 41 of 255 I t h i n k f o r yo u r that you are 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 re f e rr i n g t o i s a t p a g e 1 5 4 9 . M R J U LY : 1 5 4 9 , s a m e b u n d l e ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rt o f B u n d l e L E A 4 . M R J U LY : O n e . . . y o u sa i d p a g e ? ADV HULLEY SC: 1549. M R J U LY : 1 5 4 9 . ADV HULLEY SC: Exhibit Y8D. A n d t h i s M r C h a i r f o r yo u r b e n e f i t i s I t i s t h e r e s p o n se . It is an annexure to the re s p o n s e o f M r S e s o k o t o t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r J u l y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : J a . ADV HULLEY SC: T h e d o c u m e n t st a rt s o n p a g e 1 5 4 2 . I think the definition you were referring to is at... is on page 1549. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , t h e f i n a l o n e i s a t 1 5 4 8 a n d t h e n t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I t s a y s i n t e ri m c a s e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt . I t m e a n s: 20 “A c a s e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt w h e r e t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d b u t w h e re a r e co m m e n d a t i o n cannot be made t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt s. to the DPP due to o u t st a n d i n g H o w e v e r, r e c o m m e n d a t i o n m a y b e made to the SAPS...” We l l , o n t h a t d e f i n i t i o n , a s I u n d e r st a n d i t . Page 42 of 255 M r Ju l y, i t 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s e e m s t o m e t h a t y o u m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a c c u r a t e o r c o r r e ct w h e n y o u s a i d , a s I u n d e r st o o d yo u , t h a t e v e n i f so m e t h i n g i s st i l l m i s si n g o n t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y p a rt i t c o u l d st i l l b e i n t e ri m . From this definition, it appears to me that what must be m i s si n g i s a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o t h e D P P. A n d o b vi o u sl y, t h e D P P h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m i s c o n d u c t i s s u e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I ri g h t t o t h i n k y o u w e r e n o t a c c u r a t e ? 10 M R J U LY : C h a i r, n o . I t h i n k . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d I m i su n d e r st a n d y o u ? M R J U LY : I t h i n k C h a i r w i l l i n s i st t h a t I a m a c c u r a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m a y h a v e m i s u n d e r st o o d yo u . M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y. M R J U LY : W h a t I a m s a yi n g C h a i r. I f yo u r e a d t h a t d e f i n i t i o n , t h e f i r s t p a rt , i t sa y s i t i s a n i n v e st i g a t i o n w h i c h h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d w h i ch i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o deal with. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s. M R J U LY : W h a t d o e s i t m e a n a n i n v e st i g a t i o n i s c o m p l e t e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : T h e n i t s a y s b u t w h e r e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n c a n n o t b e m a d e . S o i n v e st i g a t i o n i s o n e t h i n g . N o w w e a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e r e p o rt . B u t i t s a y s i n v e st i g a t i o n i s c o m p l e t e d , Page 43 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a l ri g h t . B u t t h a t c o m p l e t e d r e p o r t o n i n v e st i g a t i o n , l a c k s t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt s. C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o rt s. Ye s. M R J U LY : R i g h t . B u t t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i s co m p l e t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : B u t i t l a c k s t e c h n i c a l re p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : S o t h a t re p o rt t h a t y o u a re w ri t i n g i s i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I accept that. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I t h o u g h t w h e n I a s ke d y o u t h e q u e st i o n w h e t h e r i f t h e cri m i n a l p a rt h a s g o t a r e co m m e n d a t i o n o f t h e re p o rt . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : N o , n o , n o . CHAIRPERSON: ...but t h e re is no recommendation in re g a r d t o d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s, w h e t h e r i t w o u l d st i l l b e a n i n t e ri m re p o rt ? 20 M R J U LY : N o , I m i s u n d e r st o o d y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R J U LY : N o , I m i s u n d e r st o o d y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y, o k a y. M R J U LY : Because immediately it has recommendation, it c h a n g e s c o m p l e t e l y. Page 44 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y, n o . M R J U LY : Ye s, i t c h a n g e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o s e e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : N o , n o , n o . CHAIRPERSON: . . . t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t m a k e s i t i n t e ri m i n t e r m s o f t h i s, i s t h e a b s e n ce o f a re c o m m e n d a t i o n b e ca u s e o f o u t st a n d i n g t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt s a n d s o o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. N o , t h i s p o i n t I u n d e r st a n d n o w. T h e n t h e . . . a t p a g e 1 5 4 8 , t h e d e f i n i t i o n o f f i n a l i n v e s t i g a t i ve re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s, t h a t m e a n s: “A n i n v e st i g a t i ve re p o rt w h i c h d o c u m e n t s t h e e n t i re i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d co n t a i n s t h e c o n cl u si o n , s u m m a r y of a ff i d a vi t s and technical re p o rt s, w ri t t e n re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t o S A P S , D P P w i t h re g a rd t o t h e a ct i o n s t o t h e S A P S , MP S m e m b e r c o n ce r n e d . . . ” M R J U LY : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And I see there is a definition of full i n v e st i g a t i o n j u st b e l o w t h a t . I t s a y s: “ T h a t r e f e r s t o w h e r e a c a s e - w o r ke r t a k e s o v e r a d o c ke t / c o p i e s o f t h e d o c k e t f r o m t h e S A P S . C o n d u ct a n i n d e p e n d e n t i n q u i r y a n d a s s e s s m e n t a n d p ro c e e d w i t h a n y o t h e r s e a r c h i n q u i r y f o r f u rt h e r e vi d e n ce t o Page 45 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 enable him or her to make a finding...” O k a y. m u st . . . A l ri g h t . the S o a f i n a l c a s e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt , y o u r e p o rt m u st be documenting the entire i n v e st i g a t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m u st c o n t a i n t h e c o n cl u si o n , su m m a r y o f a ff i d a vi t s a n d t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt s a n d m u st h a v e re a c h e d re c o m m e n d a t i o n t o S A P S , D P P w i t h re g a rd t o t h e a ct i o n s o f S A P S a n d M P S m e m b e r co n c e r n e d . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . M R J U LY : S o y o u w i l l n o t i c e C h a i r t h e r e a r e t w o i s s u e s t h a t m a k e s t h i s r e p o rt t h a t y o u h a v e j u st r e a d , i t d i ff e re n t f r o m i n t e ri m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s. M R J U LY : O n e i s t h a t , t h a t o u t st a n d i n g i n f o rm a t i o n , w h i c h i s a t e c h n i c a l re p o rt , i s i n cl u d e d i n t h e f i n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : 20 And not... and the other thing that has been i n cl u d e d n o w i s t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : O n c e i t h a s t h e re c o m m e n d a t i o n . . . o n c e i t h a s t e c h n i c a l r e p o rt , i t b e co m e s a f i n a l r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. Page 46 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e . . . a n i m p o rt a n t p a rt o f y o u r e vi d e n c e r e l a t e s t o t h e q u e st i o n w h e t h e r t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n w a s c o m p l e t e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a t t h e t i m e t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s, e x a ct l y. CHAIRPERSON: . . . t h e r e p o rt o f t h e 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y w a s submitted. 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: is i m p o rt a n t And it seems from this definition that that b e c a u se if the i n v e st i g a t i o n has not been completed, then it would not fall within the definition of final. I s t h a t ri g h t ? M R J U LY : Ye s. M r C h a i r, c a n I cl a r i f y s o m e t h i n g ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s, y e s . M R J U LY : T h e re a r e t w o i s s u e s h e re . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : A n d w e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e m c o rr e ct l y. A n d t h e 20 t e r m i n o l o g y, w e m u st g e t i t ri g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : W h a t w e a r e b u s y t a l ki n g a b o u t i s t h e re p o rt a n d t h e f i n a l r e p o rt . W h e n w e t a l k a b o u t i n v e st i g a t i o n s, w e a re g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t s e p a r a t e l y b e c a u s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . M r J u l y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 47 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s ? CHAIRPERSON: re p o rt that Th e d e f i n i t i o n o f f i n a l c a s e i n ve st i g a t i ve we have j u st looked at, refers to an i n v e st i g a t i v e . . . i t s a y s t h a t i s a n i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o r t w h i ch d o cu m e n t s t h e e n t i re i n v e st i g a t i o n s . M R J U LY : Ye s, I a g r e e . CHAIRPERSON: A n e n t i r e i n v e st i g a t i o n s e e m s t o m e t o re f e r t o a c o m p l e t e d i n v e st i g a t i o n s. M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Wo u l d y o u g o a l o n g w i t h t h a t ? M R J U LY : B u t t h e d r a f t o f t h e S O P, t h e y f e l t i t w a s n e ce s s a r y t o m a k e a d i st i n ct i o n b e t w e e n t h e a ct u a l r e p o rt t h a t y o u w ri t e a n d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i t s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : S o t h e y d i st i n ct i o n h e r e . T h a t i s w h y I w a n t u s. . . I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a i r t h a t i n a n y e v e n t w h e n yo u h a v e t h e f i n a l r e p o rt , y o u w o u l d h a v e c o m p l e t e d yo u r i n ve st i g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s. M R J U LY : 20 B u t I a m s a yi n g , t h e S O P, t h e y d e ci d e d t h e d r a f t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] That we are going to have these two t e r m i n o l o g i e s. T h e i s s u e a b o u t t h e re p o rt d e f i n e s d i ff e r e n t l y f ro m t h e a ct u a l i n v e st i g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : S o t h a t i s w h y t h e y h a ve g o t a t e r m c a l l e d c o m p l e t e d i n ve st i g a t i o n s. Page 48 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : P re l i m i n a r y i n v e st i g a t i o n . But of it, of course, it w i l l e n d u p t o a f i n a l r e p o rt o r a n i n t e ri m r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s. M R J U LY : S o t h a t i s w h y I w a s s a yi n g , w h e n w e d e a l w i t h t h e m , w e m u st f i r st t a l k a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n w a s c o m p l e t e d b e c a u s e y o u m u st re m e m b e r C h a i r w h a t i s t h e allegation. F i r st i s, t h a t t h e a l l e g a t i o n i s t h a t t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n i t s e l f 10 was not complete and which is the reason why the docket had to be r e q u e st e d to co m e back to complete the i n v e st i g a t i o n . N o w t h i s S O P e x p l a i n s w h a t i s a c o m p l e t e i n ve st i g a t i o n a n d w h a t i s a p r e l i m i n a r y i n ve st i g a t i o n . S o I a m s a yi n g , w e m a y h a v e t o g o b a c k. A s m u c h a s w e a r e o n r e p o rt , b u t w e m a y h a v e t o g o b a c k t o d e a l w i t h t h e t e rm i n o l o g i e s t o w h a t d o e s i t m e a n t o b e co m p l e t e d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 No, no. That is fair enough. I think we m i g h t n o t b e a t cr o s s- p u r p o s e s. M R J U LY : J a - n o , w e a r e n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : We m i g h t n o t b e a t cr o s s - p u r p o s e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e a s I s e e i t , yo u c a n n o t b e s a i d . . . y o u ca n n o t d o c u m e n t i n a r e p o rt t h e e n t i re i n v e s t i g a t i o n Page 49 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 u n l e s s t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d . M R J U LY : I s co m p l e t e d . Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e ? M R J U LY : Ye s, I a g r e e . CHAIRPERSON: So that is where I am coming from. M R J U LY : I a g r e e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja , i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o co m p l e t e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , w h a t e ve r t h e d o c u m e n t , i t i s n o t t h e e n t i re i n v e st i g a t i o n . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . M R J U LY : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y. ADV HULLEY SC: I n f a i r n e s s t o y o u M r J u l y. I t h i n k yo u w e re t r yi n g t o w r a p u p o r t o e x p l a i n t h e se d e f i n i t i o n s w i t h re f e r e n c e , o b vi o u sl y, t o t h e b o d y o f t h e S O P. a p p l y i t i n t h e c o n t e xt o f t h e S O P. How you can P e r h a p s y o u c a n j u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : D o yo u w a n t m e t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 CHAIRPERSON: We l l , I j u st w a n t t o s a y. . . I a m s o r r y. I am s o r r y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: I k n o w t h a t I p ro b a b l y t o o k M r J u l y o ff h i s t ra c k b u t I t h i n k I t o o k h i m o ff h i s t r a c k t o a n o t h e r v e r y i m p o rt a n t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 50 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ve r y i m p o rt a n t , y e s. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h i s d i s cu s s i o n , I t h i n k, h a s b e e n ve r y i m p o rt a n t b u t I a m q u i t e h a p p y t h a t y o u t a k e h i m b a c k t o t ra c k. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. ADV HULLEY SC: M r Ju l y, t o b e f a i r. I mean, you are w e l c o m e , i f y o u t h i n k y o u h a v e b e e n d i v e rt e d , y o u a r e welcome, of course, to go back to where you thought you 10 w e re g o i n g b u t I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h e se definitions and you were going to plug them in to the body of t h e S O P. M R J U LY : Ye s. N o w C h a i r, n o w b e f o r e I g o t o t h e S O P, I w o u l d t h e n h a v e t o s a y, t o m a k e a r e f e r e n c e t o a r e p o rt . Yo u w i l l r e ca l l C h a i r t h a t t h e r e w e re t w o r e p o rt s. T h e o n e r e p o rt i s d a t e d t h e 2 2 n d o f Ja n u a r y 2 0 1 4 . T h e o t h e r o n e h a s g o t t w o d a t e s, o f co u r s e , i n i t b u t i t i s w h a t i s c o m m o n l y re f e r r e d t o a s t h e 1 8 M a r c h r e p o r t , ri g h t . We c a n ca l l i t M a r c h o r A p ri l , b u t t h e r e a re t w o r e p o rt s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : N o w, h o w d i d t h e f i r st r e p o rt c o m e a b o u t ? i s t h e q u e st i o n . happened in That T h e f i r st re p o rt , y o u w i l l r e c a l l , w h a t November 2013. Khuba co n d u ct e d the i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d c a m e w i t h t h e re p o rt i n 2 0 1 3 , a n d h e submitted that report to Mosing. W h a t I d o k n o w, w h a t I Page 51 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 had been told is that all this investigation, most of them, they are so-called prosecutorial investigations, there would also always be a prosecutor involved. Now he does the investigation, Khuba, comes up with a report and if you look at that report, C h a i r, it does not have recommendation. That is the November report. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . On the 22nd and they prosecutor who was assigned to Khuba then write a memo, the same y e a r, N o v e m b e r, a n d s t a t i n g w h a t i s o u t s t a n d i n g i n t h a t 10 report, right? considered T h a t i n J a n u a r y, K h u b a g o e s w i t h w h a t h e to be a final report. He takes it to the p r o s e c u t i o n a u t h o r i t y, w i t h t h e d o c k e t a n d s a y s h e r e i s m y report. want So you guys, you must proceed with whatever you to do because the reason why it goes for the Prosecution Authority is because there is something wrong that has happened. Otherwise, if you make no r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o t h e P r o s e c u t i o n A u t h o r i t y, t h e r e i s n o reason why the docket should go there, right? It goes there because there is a recommendation. 20 He makes a recommendation, then it gets to Mosing and Mosing says no, no, no, Khuba, there is something missing i n t h i s r e p o r t a n d y o u w i l l n o t i c e , M r C h a i r, t h e r e p o r t t h a t I am talking about had 25 pages. 25 pages and Mosing writes on that report, it is dated 22nd, Draft, and say to Khuba, Khuba, please go and include your own statement. Page 52 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 We need to know how did you go about to produce – how did you go about you producing this report? statement must be included in this report. So those Khuba goes with the report. What he then does, he comes back with the report after two days. Now I am quoting what Mosing says. Mosing says Khuba comes back with a report after two days. So two days is 24 January but now with that report has got 30 something pages because Khuba included his 10 statement. Again, it is signed. Yo u r e m e m b e r h e s i g n e d the first one thinking that there is no need for anything, it has his signature. Mosing write “Draft”, so you will have two draft, a November one, which was a draft which was interim in nature, then you have what was considered by Khuba as final report, being written “Draft” because it led Khuba’s statement. Then Khuba include the statement, it comes back on the 24th but what has not changed is the date of the 22nd. 20 report, We call it the 22nd January report when in fact the which had Khuba’s statement which was outstanding, was submitted on the 24th and Mosing said I did not feel it was even necessary to ask Khuba to change 22nd to 24th. saying it So that report is the final report. is the recommendations. final report, it had Why I am one, the Once it has recommendations, it had Page 53 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the technical report. So that is what makes it a final report. On the basis of that, in February – I think around the 8 February 2014, Mosing writes a memo and say now the investigation following. has been finalised, please find the N o w t h a t m e m o i s g o i n g t o D P P, C h a u k e , i n Johannesburg, for a decision whether to prosecute or not to prosecute. B u t t h e s t a t e o f t h a t r e p o r t , C h a i r, i s f i n a l . It is final in every respect. 10 So he list the documents that are there. Yo u h a v e been told that normally – but let me not rush and get to what was missing because I will tell you the versions that have been given about that report, various versions. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O n e s e c o n d ? T h e r e i s a f i l e t h a t - two which I referred during Mr Nhleko’s evidence that I am l o o k i n g f o r, t h e o n e t h a t h a s g o t h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e s o f i t . Yo u n e e d w a t e r – t h e y d i d n o t g i v e y o u w a t e r. M R J U LY : I n e e d s o m e w a t e r, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : They should have put some water… That is Mr Hulley’s strategy towards me. ADV HULLEY SC: He asks for it and then complains when I give it to him. M R J U LY : [Laughs] CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e . about to take the lunch break. Page 54 of 255 Well, we are 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: The tea adjournment. Not lunch break, tea break. ADV HULLEY SC: M r C h a i r, p e r h a p s I c o u l d b e o f a s s i s t a n c e , w h i c h b u n d l e a r e y o u l o o k i n g f o r, M r C h a i r ? CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do not know the name of the bundle but I can deal with – I deal with this. There is a memo and maybe the one you are referring to is the one. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R J U LY : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : To M r C h a u k e . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That was written by Adv Mosing. And to Ms Jiba. Nomgcobo Jiba. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , N o m g c o b o J i b a . Where, as I understand it, he says something that suggests to me that the report – there was still something outstanding here that he wrote, I think in terms of the notes I made here, which I also read to Mr Nhleko, it is the memo of 13 February 2014 20 and in paragraph 6.3 of his memo I say: “Mr Mosing said in part when talking about his view that Major General Sibiya did not appear to have been involved.” M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: He said the following and I quote: Page 55 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 “The cell corroborate phone his evidence, presence h o w e v e r, during does the not operations. This can be looked at again more closely after an expert has been procured to analyse the cell phone data. this This could not be done by the time of writing report despite it being pointed out to the investigating team.” M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 So when I read this, the impression I had was well, Mr Mosing is saying there is a need for an expert to analyse cell phone records. M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: I have told the investigators to get that done but they have not got that done. M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: And if that is factually true, my inclination would then that report of the 22nd could not be said to be final. What do you say to that? M R J U LY : 20 Let me tell you why that report was final. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . That report was final, one, recommendations. Yo u w i l l s e e i n t h e l i s t o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t M o s i n g i s forwarding, he writes – there is a handwritten report that he is referring to there. That handwritten report is the report that was provided but in handwritten that you cannot Page 56 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 locate Sibiya in Diepsloot. That information is known to Khuba, is known to Mosing but is in handwriting, right? He writes it in the list of the documents that he is submitting but now here is an issue, he then says we may have – we cannot be held back by this. Now the context of that statement – and Mosing should be called – the context of that statement, you have got two witnesses – I think three witnesses, the two witnesses who were part of the investigation, Campbell and someone else and one of the 10 civilian – the victim, one of the people who were victims, the family members, who claimed that they have seen Sibiya. Now Mosing says this issue we cannot conclude it but here is the report, it is handwritten, it says Sibiya was not in Diepsloot. So let us go to the March, just to visit March for the purposes of this, you go to the March report which they considered now to be final. What is different in terms of analysis, it is the same, but the difference is that it is typed. 20 That is all, it is that same report which says Sibiya was not in Diepsloot although the witnesses, two or three witnesses say he was there, but that report, Khuba collects it, it is now a typed report. Yo u a r e n o t g o i n g t o f i n d anything in the March report which tells you as a result of an analysis, what was submitted has changed is the same information which says Sibiya Page 57 of 255 was not involved in 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Diepsloot. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Now I think we seem to be on the same page with regard to the principle that if there is still a report outstanding, then you would accept that the report is not final. M R J U LY : I w o u l d a c c e p t t h a t , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : I would accept it. CHAIRPERSON: 10 remains Ja, you would accept that. is that I think that is important. you are saying there So what then was no report outstanding here. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: The part that I have read from Mr M o s i n g ’ s m e m o i s t h a t – a c t u a l l y, h e p u t s i t a s t h e r e i s s t i l l analysis to be done, you know? N o w y o u w o u l d t h e n s a y, based on your evidence on what you have said, you could s a y, I i m a g i n e , h e i s w r o n g t o s a y, t h a t i s a n a l y s i s t o b e done because you say the analysis has been done, it is contained in the handwritten report. 20 M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: be done. Whereas he says the analysis is still to I do not know whether in your investigation you deal with him – you kind of confronted him with it to say how could you say the analysis outstanding because the analysis has been done and if you did, what did he say? Page 58 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : I f I r e m e m b e r w e l l , C h a i r, t h e c o n t e x t w a s explained which is you have got two versions. One, you have got an analyst’s report which is handwritten which says Sibiya was not in Diepsloot. Yo u h a v e g o t w i t n e s s e s that says Sibiya was in Diepsloot but the report which says Sibiya was not in Diepsloot, it is there. therefore, the statement that he makes, it cannot be divorced from the context. I could be that he wanted to address how do we deal with this issue that there are witnesses that would 10 have seen Sibiya but we have an analysis which says Sibiya was in Pretoria when this happened. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: whether No, I understand that part. during I am your asking the investigation different when you question had to interview Mr Mosing and being aware of this part of his memo whether you did say to him but how can you say in this memo that there is analysis outstanding from a technical expert or whatever because here is the analysis, 20 it just happens to be in handwritten form. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is that something you raised or not really? M R J U LY : No, not in that fashion. CHAIRPERSON: N o t d i r e c t l y. Page 59 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Not directly in that fashion. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Because we picked up what he was explaining. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : N o t d i r e c t l y, o k a y, o k a y. Ye s , y e s . That no, no, no, his understanding, which is why he was saying it is final, you must look at how he starts. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 His memorandum. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . Ye s . He starts by saying now it is final, the investigation has been finalised. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : And now it is for you to take a decision. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . Ye s . A n d y o u r e m e m b e r, C h a i r, w e a r e t a l k i n g o f a very experienced Advocate. CHAIRPERSON: MR 20 J U LY : specifically Ye s . Who with this has been special allocated project d e l i b e r a t e l y t o d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t t e r. who dealing was with chosen So he knows what he is doing. So when he says this issue can still be dealt with – and that is exactly the attitude that was adopted by Adv Baloyi and Mzinyathi when they were given the same reports by Mr Nkhosani because Mr Nkhosani was also Page 60 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 confronted by the same thing, for these two reports. So what do we do? CHAIRPERSON: But, of course – well, I do not know how experienced Mr Mosing is, of course, but I take what you s a y t h a t h e i s a n e x p e r i e n c e d , y o u k n o w, p r o s e c u t o r o r advocate precisely because he is experience and precisely because he seems to have been part of this investigation from its inception. M R J U LY : 10 Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It kind of surprises one if he says there is analysis still outstanding, if in fact that is not so. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b u t I a m s a y i n g , C h a i r, y o u cannot read that paragraph in isolation. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Just say that again? I am saying that paragraph cannot be read isolation. CHAIRPERSON: 20 N o o b v i o u s l y, i t s h o u l d n o t b e r e a d i n isolation, it should be …[intervenes] M R J U LY : Ye s . And we also had the benefit of speaking to him. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , y e s . Ye s , y o u s e e , t h i s particular issue, what I am saying, it is just that it is important to come to a point whether at a factual level he Page 61 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 was correct in saying there was analysis still outstanding because I think you and I have agreed that if factually he was correct then the report of the 22 January was not final but you have said he was not factually correct because there was analysis that he was talking about, it just happened to be in handwritten form. That is what you said. M R J U LY : A n d t h a t v i e w, C h a i r, i s c o n f i r m e d e v e n b y t h e subsequent report. CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R J U LY : That there was no analysis. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s , y e s . Ye s , y e s . There was no further analysis that was done. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . Ye s , n o t t h a t i s w h y i t becomes important to – that you tell me what you can tell me. M R J U LY : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: To s h o w t h a t t h e r e w a s n o a n a l y s i s t h a t was outstanding. M R J U LY : 20 Outstanding at all. CHAIRPERSON: And then, the next question would be to say one, you may – it may be legitimate for you to say well, the report of the expert may have been in handwritten form but I think the fact that it is not typed does not make it – does not render the report not final. Maybe Mr Khuba, maybe Page 62 of 255 Mr McBride, maybe 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s o m e b o d y e l s e m i g h t s a y w e l l , t h a t i s w h e r e w e d i f f e r, w e think it makes a difference. Then we know where the differences are. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So it is a question of just – so identifying where the difference are. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 O k a y. Yo u s e e , w h e r e t h e y f a i l , t h e y d o n o t s h o w y o u , C h a i r, t h e y d o n o t s h o w t h i s C o m m i s s i o n a f t e r t h a t a n a l y s i s what other analysis did they get after the handwritten one. For them to be able to produce the 18 January because if it w a s o u t s t a n d i n g , t h e y s h o u l d b e t e l l i n g y o u , C h a i r, a n d s a y w e t h e n o b t a i n e d , a f t e r t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y, a n a n a l y s i s w h i c h was outstanding, which informs the report of March. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. There is no such thing. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a l r i g h t . M r H u l l e y, I a m s u r e y o u are looking at both of us and saying we are having this 20 conversation by ourselves but …[intervenes] ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: N o , M r C h a i r. After the tea break, I will let you continue. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. It is just that for me these are some of Page 63 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the really important issues. M R J U LY : Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And I want to be sure that I understand exactly where Mr July stands. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. And I raise my own issues with him. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. So I think let us take the tea break, we are at twenty two minutes past eleven. Let us take a break 10 and return at twenty to twelve. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. We adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e , y o u m a y p r o c e e d , M r H u l l e y. Yo u r m i c . ADV HULLEY SC: P a r d o n m e , M r C h a i r. For the benefit o f t h e w i t n e s s a n d f o r y o u r s e l f , M r C h a i r, t h e r e i s a b u n d l e which is marked as EXHIBIT Y6, that is one the historic 20 bundles that does not follow the current formatting and the specific document that we are referring to is at page 322 of that bundle. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: Yes. It would perhaps be useful if we all spoke on the same page. Page 64 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes, okay. Yes, thank you, Mr Hulley. Chair, can I before Mr Hulley takes me back to where we were, to deal with that page, because I wanted to address this issue about the outstanding information. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: If you read paragraph 2 …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: 10 Ja, ja. Okay, which bundle? Y6, 322. CHAIRPERSON: The one that has just been handed up to me. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Okay, what page? Page 322. CHAIRPERSON: 322. Yes. Oh, ja, that is the memo to which I was referring. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: 20 Yes. They start by giving the purpose of the memo, I am not going to read that. Then paragraph 2, it gives the background. He says: “The investigations...” Supposed to say investigation. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja. “...has now been finalised.” Page 65 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. “...and a report from the IPID has been submitted for purposes of considering the merits of the case.” CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. “The case docket comprising of two lever arch files together of other files containing the cellular phone data and evidence obtained from the computer belonging to the 10 DPCI is also enclosed.” So I want to Chair to bear in mind when we talk about that cell phone, that it is going come up every now and then. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Because that is the issue. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. Whether the cell phone data, what is it. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja. Yes. That was outstanding, [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ja, okay. Maybe we can just for the sake of completeness, if we can identify the one that I also mentioned, I think – ja, 6.3. It is at page 327. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: “The Says: involvement of other Page 66 of 255 senior police officers 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 could not be established beyond reasonable doubt including the head of the DPCI, Gauteng, Major General Sibiya who, it is alleged, was present during the first two operations but the evidence is not conclusive. He is also responsible for the [indistinct] 03.23 in Gauteng and it is unlikely that the operations knowledge. does 10 not operations. were The cell corroborate carried phone his out without evidence, presence his h o w e v e r, during the This can be looked at again more closely after an expert witness has been procured to analyse the cell phone data. This could not be done by the time of writing this report despite it being pointed out to the investigating team.” O k a y, I j u s t w a s s a y i n g f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s . M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: M r H u l l e y, p r o c e e d . T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Now just to be c l e a r, a s f a r a s t h i s i s c o n c e r n e d , M r J u l y, i f I u n d e r s t a n d 20 c o r r e c t l y, w h a t A d v o c a t e M o s i n g i s s a y i n g – s a i d t o y o u i n an interview is that at this point in time, i.e. 22 January 2014 or 24 January 2014, to be more specific, the analysis of the cell phone records was complete except – then the only difference between what was in existence at that point and what was in existence at the later point, i.e. 18 March Page 67 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 2014, was the fact that the report was compiled or the analysis had been done in a handwritten form and subsequently it was done through a typed document. Do I understand that correctly? M R J U LY : No. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : O k a y. Mosing does not talk about even during our i n t e r v i e w, h e d o e s n o t t a l k a b o u t t h e h a n d w r i t t e n a n d t h e typed version. 10 M o s i n g , d u r i n g o u r i n t e r v i e w, s a y s t h e y h a d the phone unlisted which says Mr Sibiya – General Sibiya was not in Diepsloot but there is this evidence by these witnesses which say he was there. As we understand, when we spoke to him, that issue is an issue that can still be dealt with at a later stage and even – I was about to talk about Baloyi, Baloyi and Mzinyathi, they say the same thing, they say when they realised that there are witnesses that have seen Sibiya but the cell phone record places them somewhere. They said it is in the nature of the prosecution that you will never – but until you go to court 20 be in a position conclusively say the investigation is completed because they will always be that information which would be required. So the point that I am trying to make is, although there was this contradiction, if that contradiction is not resolved at some point, that they will have to decide what they do with that. Page 68 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s . N o w, if I understand …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I think the answer to your question because, I mean, Mr July did answer it but I think partly because he – you asked him whether Mr Mosing said a c e r t a i n t h i n g t o h i m d u r i n g i n t e r v i e w, h e s a i d n o , t h a t i s n o t what he said and I think that is correct. But I think what he m a d e c l e a r e a r l i e r o n , M r J u l y, w a s t h a t t h e c o n t e x t w a s different when they had a discussion, it was not a question 10 o f a s k i n g h i m d i r e c t l y, h o w d o y o u – w h y d o y o u s a y t h e r e is analysis then outstanding because here is the analysis, he did not ask him directly but they were focusing on the fact that there were certain witnesses who said they had seen Mr Sibiya there and yet the cell phone records suggestion something else. ADV HULLEY SC: particular speaks of T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. memorandum – on of paragraph Now in this the 13 February 2014, 2, the paragraph that he you referred to on page 322, there Mr Mosing’s or Advocate 20 Mosing, I believe it is, speaks to the cellular phone data and evidence obtained from a computer so he seems to be speaking there of data as opposed to which implies that it may be raw data, as opposed to an analysis of that data. Do I understand that – do I misunderstand that? M R J U LY : No, no, I think you understand it very well but I Page 69 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 d o n o t k n o w w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u w a n t m e t o a n s w e r, b u t y o u understand it very well, it is a phone, cell phone data. T h i s i s w h a t I m e a n t , C h a i r. Khuba asked for all your telecommunications – your cell phone companies, Cell C , Vo d a c o m , M T N , t o o k p r o v i d e w i t h i n f o r m a t i o n , h e h a s got the information. He takes the information to people to analyse that information. They look at the cell phones who called who and who SMSed who. They finalised that. That issue is finalised. 10 That there is a number of SMSes on the 5 November 2010 that were from Maluleke to Sibiya, from Sibiya to Dramat and Lebeya, right? is one form of analysis. That is a data. That The other analysis was to locate the people who are implicated. Where was Sibiya at the time precisely on the 6 November 2010? Where was Sibiya? That is the information I am saying was in handwritten, it was present, i t w a s k n o w n t o a n y b o d y, t o e v e r y b o d y, a n d w a s p u t i n t h e list by Mosing in the document and listed the documents that are submitted as handwritten, I do not know which 20 paragraph. ADV HULLEY SC: Are you referring to specific document now? CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Yo u a r e l o o k i n g f o r t h e h a n d w r i t t e n … ? Where it says handwritten, where Mosing …[intervenes] Page 70 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Oh where it says draft? Where is listing, yes, where is listing the document that is …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : There is no attachment. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 Ja. But is listing. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That is attaching, is enclosing. Oh. It could be that, yes. But that document was attached, that that document – that is why he comes to the conclusion. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That we know now that Sibiya was not there. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . Ye s . And you cannot do that by analysing SMSes, no, you cannot. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Yo u h a v e t o d o a n o t h e r a n a l y s i s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . Ye s . For you to be able to say there was Sibiya at the time. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. So that was done. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s , o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Page 71 of 255 I think just 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 moving ahead. So you have got the 22 January report, here are in fact three 22 January reports, as you are aware of. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: The one has got the word draft on it, one was in fact emailed by Mr Khuba to Mr Sesoko. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: And the third one is the one that you say was …[intervenes] 10 M R J U LY : Signed, yes. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Delivered to Adv Mosing. O n t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y. Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, t h e f i r s t o n e w h i c h h a s t h e w o r d draft on it, the word draft is inscribed there by Adv Mosing. M R J U LY : 20 Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: And that is because, according to Adv Mosing, to according the interview that you had with Advocate Mosing, he says he wrote draft there because the s t a t e m e n t o f M r K h u b a h a d n o t b e e n – a s t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r, had not been included. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: Now at that stage, i.e. on the 22 J a n u a r y w h e n i t s e e m s e v e r y b o d y, i t i s c o m m o n c a u s e , a s Page 72 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 between Mr Mosing and – or Adv Mosing and Mr Khuba that he delivered the 22 January report, you are saying that that report was not a final report, if I understood you correctly in your discussion with the Chairperson. M R J U LY : Which one is that? ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : The one that had draft on it. The one that had draft on it, yes, that is what I am saying, that is the version of Mosing and I think it does say that even in his affidavit. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Sure. Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: So – but I am trying to understand what you are saying, you are saying that it was not a final report. M R J U LY : Can I explain this? That report was not final b e c a u s e , a s w e h a v e r e a d , C h a i r, t h e f i n a l r e p o r t r e q u i r e s recommendations, so there were not recommendations, so Khuba was asked to go and add recommendations so that is 20 why it took him recommendations, which is the just comes same two days to back with recommendations report but it go did and not add have recommendations, then it became a final report because it has the same date. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Sure. Of the 22nd. Page 73 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: I think, least we be confused, perhaps we should turn to the document of the bundle which is marked LAE2. That is correct? M R J U LY : ADV Ja. HULLEY SC: And you have attached several docum ents to your affidavit. It is part of your affidavit. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: Which is EXHIBIT Y8B. If you could turn with me to page 645. 10 MR JULY: 645? I am there. ADV HULLEY SC: Is that the document that you are referring to? MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: And you would see the word draft inscribed in manuscript. MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: And the top of that page. Now if you would turn with me to page 670 of the same bundle. Have you got it. 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: MR JULY: 600 and…? 670, Mr Chairperson. Oh, at the end. That is right. Do you see that, sir? 670? ADV HULLEY SC: Yes, have you got the page? Page 74 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 MR JULY: Oh, yes, yes, yes. And if you look at the heading which is on the preceding page, which is at page 669, can you read that heading to us? CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, what did you say he must look at? ADV HULLEY SC: There is a heading at the foot of the page. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: 10 670? On the preceding page, which on page 669. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes, okay. Recommendations? ADV HULLEY SC: That is right. And if you could go over to page 670? MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: MR JULY: Can you read that into the record? “Based on the available evidence the independent Investigative Directorate, comments that Lieutenant General Dramat, 20 Major Sibiya, Maluleke, Constable Radebe, Captain S Nkosi, Warrant Officer Makoe be charged criminally of kidnapping, defeating the ends of justice, assault and theft only applicable to Captain Maluleke, Warrant Officer Makoe, Constable P M Radebe and Page 75 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Captain S Nkosi.” ADV HULLEY SC: MR JULY: And it is signed, is it not? Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: So this document was in fact signed and it had a recommendation. MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: The only point I am making is that you nevertheless regarded this as an interim report. Or do I misunderstand you? 10 MR JULY: I think you are missing the [indistinct – dropping voice] ADV HULLEY SC: Wa s t h i s a f i n a l – I a s k e d y o u i f t h i s was final report. M R J U LY : It was a final report. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Oh. Because it had recommendation according to Khuba. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let us get this – there may be a I misunderstanding. 20 M R J U LY : Ja. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Mr Khuba gave Mr Mosing a report. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Which, as you understand the position, Mr Khuba, regarded as final. M R J U LY : Ye s . Page 76 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: And there was nothing further to be done by him, as you understand the position. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khuba – no, Mr Mosing identified that the report did not include Mr Khuba’s statement as the i n v e s t i g a t o r. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then asked Mr Khuba to submit his statement and he wrote on the report “Draft.” 10 M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And you s a y, as I understand the position, the reason, the only reason why Mr Mosing wrote or could have written “Draft” …[intervenes] M R J U LY : It is Mr Mosing. CHAIRPERSON: Wa s b e c a u s e o f M r K h u b a ’ s o u t s t a n d i n g statement. M R J U LY : Statement, yes. CHAIRPERSON: And the next question must therefore be at the time that Mr Mosing asked Mr Khuba to submit his 20 statement, was this report that he marked “Draft”, did it have a recommendation? M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : It did, ja. It did. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja, so …[intervenes] Page 77 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 MR J U LY : These are recommendations [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : So it …[intervenes] Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: This report that we are looking at now is exactly the report that Mr Mosing wrote “Draft” on. M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: I t h a d a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a l r e a d y, t h e only thing that was outstanding as far as Mr Mosing was 10 concerned was Mr …[intervenes] M R J U LY : Khuba’s statement. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Khuba’s statement. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And, as you understand the position, did Mr Khuba in two days submit their statement and that statement would have been made part of the report? M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 Thank you. S o r r y, I w a s a c t u a l l y asking you from your perspective because I understood, correct me, of course, if I am wrong, I understood you to be saying this was not a final report and I was trying to understand that response. Now I might have of course – I might have interpreted what you were saying to me that it was an interim report but I am asking you again, was this a Page 78 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 final report, not from Mr Khuba’s perspective, from your perspective, that is what I am asking. M R J U LY : Chair… CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : We have defined what the final report is. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . The final report with recommendations. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 Ye s . Ye s . It is a final report. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . But what was missing with this final report is Mr Khuba’s statement. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . So it was a final report. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . But what was missing was Khuba’s statement. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I t h i n k w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y i s , from your point of view it met the requirements of the definition 20 of a final report in the standard operating procedures. M R J U LY : It did, it did. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Is that is right? I did. CHAIRPERSON: That is what you are saying. that point of view it was final. Page 79 of 255 So from 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : It was final. CHAIRPERSON: But you accept that according to Mr Mosing Mr Khuba’s statement was not there. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: definition of a But you are saying if you look at the final report in the standard operating procedures it met those requirements, that definition. M R J U LY : was 10 Ye s . B e c a u s e , y o u s e e , w h a t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d missing to Mr Mosing is that you come to this conclusion but you do not tell us, give us your statement. Give us your statement, tell us what did you do. Who did you consult with? CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : H’m. Who did you take statements, that is what …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: What may be – and Mr Hulley might be intending to deal with that, to the extent that the definition of final – I think it is called Final Case Investigative Report to the extent that it says such a report must document the 20 entire investigation. I think the question might be whether as long as the investigat or ’s stat ement is not there. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Whether that part is met. What would you say on that? M R J U LY : C h a i r, i t w o u l d s e e t h a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] Page 80 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Of course it would have become complete. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 It might not have been …[intervenes] It seemed that is a question of practice. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : In two day’s time. Ye s , y e s . Practice as compared to what constitute a final report. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , y e s . MR What J U LY : constitute a final report are recommendations. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . But the people who read recommendations, they are saying no, no, no, no, for practice purposes we want to know from you how did you go about doing the report. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . But just to go back on our understanding because I do not want to confuse you in terms of what you are saying. On the definition of final case investigate report as it appears in the standard operating procedures, would you say that if this investigator ’s stat ement is not there, the report is complete, is final and meets the requirements or Page 81 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 would you say no, it does not meet the requirements but when Mr Khuba submitted his statement then that report met all the requirements or the definition of final case investigate report, that is when it became final. M R J U LY : C h a i r, i t s a y s i f y o u w a n t t o d e a l w i t h i s s u e s o f recommendation, because it has recommendations and it has got all the information that is required then it becomes a final report. Khuba makes the analysis, he comes to the conclusion and he makes recommendations. So it is a final 10 report. CHAIRPERSON: Even without the investigator ’s statement? M R J U LY : Even without the investigat or ’s statement in terms of the definition. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : J a , o k a y. But it would seem they have got a practice. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR That J U LY : the report, which has got a recommendation, must have your own statement. 20 CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: the Ye s . investigation J a , o k a y. M r H u l l e y ? T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. was concerned, the – r e p o r t s w h i c h w e r e d a t e d t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y. Page 82 of 255 Now insofar as we had three There was a 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 report that had been emailed to Mr Sesoko, which had also been – was also dated the 22 January of 2014 and that had been emailed to him on the 23 January of 2014, according to the investigations you had done, is that correct? M R J U LY : I know of that report that Khuba says he referred the report to Sesoko but the report that was signed is the report which was signed on the [indistinct – dropping voice] CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R J U LY : Do not speak away from mic. O h , C h a i r, I a m s a y i n g I a m a w a r e o f K h u b a saying he emailed a report on the 23rd to Sesoko for the purposes of the secretariat because they are required to g i v e t o t h e s e c r e t a r i a t a n d a s w e c a n k n o w, I t h i n k I w o u l d take it as common cause that we know that this investigation was conducted in terms of Section 28H and the 28H makes a reference to that it is a kind of a report which investigation must happen as a result of a referral e i t h e r b y t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, i n i t i a t e d b y t h e E x e c u t i v e Director or is initiated by the MEC or the Minister or the 20 Secretary and the Secretary is the Secretary of the Secretariat for the Police and this was referred to IPID a l r e a d y w i t h a c a s e n u m b e r. So Khuba was obliged in terms of the law to give that report to the Secretariat. S o K h u b a d o e s s a y, o f course, in his affidavit that he filed, something that he did Page 83 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 not mention to us when we interviewed Khuba, you can go through the interview that we had with Khuba, we had three interviews with him. We only pick up the issue of the report which was emailed to Sesoko which is dated the 23rd, which we will talk about that another time, whether Sesoko knew about the report, whether he knew or he did not know about the first report. ADV HULLEY SC: Ve r y w e l l . Now at the time of the – when the first report is complete – I am talking now about 10 the 22 January report. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: And we know that there are three reports, two of which are signed, one of which is emailed. Yo u s a y i t w a s e m a i l e d o n – s o r r y, i t w a s e m a i l e d o n t h e 23rd and you say the second 22 January report which contains the investigator ’s statement is in fact given to Adv M o s i n g o n t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: 20 So it should probably be referred to as the 24 January report but we have referred to it throughout as the first report. M R J U LY : Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: So when you refer in your affidavit to the first report you are referring to the second signed report …[intervenes] Page 84 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : The signed – the one with the statement, yes. ADV HULLEY SC: Correct. the from – quite apart the Now at that stage, of course, issue analysis or it is the cell phone relating to the data data analysis, quite apart from that issue, there are several statements that are outstanding, warning statements that are outstanding, is that correct? M R J U LY : When? ADV HULLEY SC: 10 A s a t t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y, w h e t h e r i t b e o n t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y o r t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y, a s y o u s a y. M R J U LY : not want Ye s . to To t h e w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t s , deal with – there were C h a i r, I d o several warning statements. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Just say that again. Come closer? I a m s a y i n g , c h a i r, I d o n o t w a n t t o d e a l w i t h several warning statements, I want to deal with what Khuba said was missing. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 20 O k a y. The statements that were missing, not several. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : H’m. He says – Khuba – what was missing was the warning statement of Sibiya, was the warning statement of M a l u l e k e , w a s t h e w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t o f L e o n Ve r s t e r. was the statement warning at the statement same which time Page 85 of 255 of is not the It warning Qoboshiyane and 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Q o b o s h i y a n e , I m u s t r e m i n d y o u , C h a i r, i s t h e s e c r e t a r y o f the Secretariat. So Khuba says these are the warning statements that were missing. of Sibiya. Let us deal with the warning statement The warning statement of Sibiya, after the submission of the report on the 22nd, somewhere on the 13 F e b r u a r y, o u t o f t h e b l u e , K h u b a w r i t e s a l e t t e r t o S i b i y a . He says to Sibiya, based on your conversations that you had with Sesoko, I am writing to you to provide me with a 10 warning statement and here are the questions. The warning statement comes back, it is now the 2 8 F e b r u a r y. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : What date? 28 February? 28 Feb. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : J a , o k a y. Ye s . That one, that is the first warning statement. What we do know …[intervenes] ADV HULLEY SC: S o r r y, j u s t t o b e c l e a r, w e a r e t a l k i n g about 28 February 2014. 20 M R J U LY : The second Ja, 2014. warning That is the first warning statement. statement, I do not know the circumstances on which it was obtained but what we know is that it says nothing, it is silent. Maybe I should go back t o S i b i y a a s t o w h a t d o e s i t s a y. CHAIRPERSON: Whose one is that one? Page 86 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : That this one is Maluleka. CHAIRPERSON: MR J U LY : O k a y. Ye s , Maluleka says exercise my right to remain silent. nothing, he says, I Then Sibiya, what does S i b i y a s a y, S i b i y a s a y s e x a c t l y w h a t h e s a i d i n 2 0 11 i n a nutshell. Yo u w i l l r e c a l l , C h a i r – m a y b e y o u w i l l n o t r e c a l l because there are certain things that were not told which is 2 0 11 , t h e r e ’ s a n i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s b y t h e S A P t o k n o w a b o u t this rendition who exactly was involved in this unlawful 10 rendition and that investigation, as a result of the Sunday Ti m e s r e p o r t o f O c t o b e r. S u n d a y Ti m e s , a r o u n d O c t o b e r publishes an article, an article which says, people have been killed…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Hang on Mr July I’m not sure whether we need to go too far on that because of the question. I think you wanted to simply say you’d like to focus on the specific warning statements. M R J U LY : T h e i m p o r t a n c e , C h a i r, t h e p r o b l e m – I m a y sometimes come across as a person who – because there 20 are certain questions, I mean answers that would want you to go back …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: No, no I understand that, no, no I understand that. MR J U LY : So, now you have these four warning statements the other witness statement, I’m not sure if the Page 87 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Leon one was obtained then there’s the Ncubshiane one, and if you read the Ncubshiane statement, all what N c u b s h i a n e s a y s , s h e s a y s t h i s t h i n g , a f t e r 2 0 11 I w a s asked by the Minister to determine what are the legal implications for South Africa, both internationally and locally for this rendition, what – the reason why – what are the implications of this unlawful of this rendition. Ncubshiane – that’s the statement of Ncubshiane. So So, you tell me, Ncubshiane’s statement, what has that have to do 10 with the charged? that conclusion whether Sibiya, Dramat must be A person who decides to remain silent, how can have an impact on the recommendation. The statem ent by Sibiya, it’s confirming what he’s already been saying, which is, I did not get myself, I was never involved in the rendition but what Sibiya is accepting though is accepting operations. that he provided personnel to undergo the Sibiya accepts that he was being briefed and that statement – that’s the one t hat I emailed to Mr Galli last night because I looked for it in the docket that was 20 provided, I couldn’t find it and you will see in the report it’s sum marised, it’s a one-liner or two sentences which says, Sibiya denies having been involved but Sibiya writes a statement through the lawyers and then through the lawyers and then he sends another statement which is written, conclusion. So, all the – all of that, when you read Page 88 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 it, they don’t have impact on the recommendation. CHAIRPERSON: Hmmm, Mr Hulley? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. N o w, y o u m a k e the point that these statements and the – or rather the activity on the part of Mr Khuba, by writing to Ms Ncubshiane by writing to Sibiya, you make the point that, that is out of the blue. I just want to understand what you were referring to, what the implicat ion was, as far as that’s concerned? 10 MR J U LY : For me, C h a i r, I start my affidavit by saying…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Remember not to move away…[intervenes]. M R J U LY : Oh, I started m y affidavit by saying I’m not a truther and I explain what a truther is and a truther is a p e r s o n w h o i s a c o n s p i r a c y t h e o r y, r i g h t b u t I ’ v e g o t m y own reservation. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 20 Hmm. The out of the blue, is the reservations that I have about, around the 13th – there’s now an issue about the warning statement because McBride is coming, they know that McBride is coming on the 3rd so McBride will come on the 3rd and s a y, the outstanding. CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hmm. Page 89 of 255 investigation was still 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : That’s the whole reason why …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: But what is the factual basis for you to say that they knew that he would come and say that? M R J U LY : Chair this is informed by what, then happens, when McBride starts on the 3rd of March, what does he do, when he start on the 3rd of March…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no as I understand the statement you just – you made it is that prior to Mr McBride starting at IPID, they knew that he would come and take this 10 position. So, my question is, what is the factual basis for you to say that? M R J U LY : T h e y k n e w, t h a t t h e y k n e w t h a t h e w a s c o m i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Before he came, ja remember…[intervenes]. M R J U LY : R e m e m b e r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t , C h a i r, w a s a l r e a d y confirmed somewhere in December 2013. CHAIRPERSON: No, no I understand that, but the part t h a t I ’ m i n t e r e s t e d i n i s , i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c t l y, i s – suggests that they knew what position he would take on 20 this case once he arrived. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So, I’m asking what is the factual basis for saying that? M R J U LY : C h a i r, I ’ m s a y i n g i f y o u l o o k a t w h a t , t h e n happens when Mr McBride get to IPID you cannot ignore Page 90 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the activities of what happened after the report was already considered by the person who was submitting it, considered to be final. CHAIRPERSON: s a y, they Hmm, m aybe let’s go back, when you k n e w, who are you talking about before…[intervenes]? M R J U LY : I’m talking about Sesoko. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 10 Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : About Sesoko? And Khuba yes. Ye s , I ’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e t w o o f t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y n o , I j u s t w a n t e d u s t o c l e a r that. M R J U LY : Oh yes, sorry Chair that’s what I meant. CHAIRPERSON: But what is it that you can tell me that informs your statement that before Mr McBride arrived at IPID, they knew that, upon his arrival he would take a particular position on this case? M R J U LY : 20 C h a i r, y o u h a v e t o r e a d a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t happened when he came in. He’s on record, Mr McBride and all of them, saying, when McBride arrived at IPID, he asked for high profile matters. There were three high profile matters at that time, it was Marikina, it was Cato M a n o r, i t w a s t h i s r e n d i t i o n . What happens, these people were called to a meeting to say we want you to give me the Page 91 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 update but you won’t hear anything, no update about the other two. Not even to the person who was called to come to give evidence – I mean to give update about Cato M a n o r, t h a t p e r s o n , w h e n w e i n t e r v i e w e d h i m , n o t h i n g d i d h e s a y, a c c o r d i n g t o M r A n g u s a b o u t C a t o M a n o r. A l l w h a t he talked about, he was asked to take over this rendition because McBride suspect that there was something, not right which was done by Khuba at the time. That’s what he says, right. 10 W h e n y o u l o o k a t A n n a ’ s a n d s a y, w h a t i s i t then that the update we were supposed to give, there is no update. Mr Kgamanyane who was doing Marikina and other i n v e s t i g a t o r s , w e k n o w n o w, t h a t t h o s e r e p o r t s w e r e f i l e d w i t h I P I D , I m e a n w i t h N PA . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t y o u s e e M r J u l y, I w o u l d h a v e a cert ain understanding if you say to me, it’s interesting then, upon arrival at IPID, Mr McBride behaved in the f o l l o w i n g w a y, t h a t ’ s o n e w a y b u t i t ’ s d i f f e r e n t w h e n y o u s a y S e s o k o a n d K h u b a k n e w, b e f o r e M r M c B r i d e a r r i v e d a t IPID 20 that when he arrived at IPID he would take a p a r t i c u l a r p o s i t i o n o n t h e m a t t e r. S o t h a t ’ s t h e p a r t I w a s a c t u a l l y l i s t e n i n g t o s a y, w h a t ’ s t h e f a c t u a l … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . M R J U LY : I hear you, there might be a disjuncture, maybe I should not approach it in that way then. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR Maybe J U LY : I should Page 92 of 255 then stick on it 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 was…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : On the factors you said earlier on. L e t m e a d d r e s s t h e n , w h y, t h e o u t o f t h e b l u e , on the 13th of…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y, j u s t s a y t h a t a g a i n y o u l o o k e d a t h i m a n d I d i d n ’ t h e a r. M R J U LY : Oh, I was saying, let me then address the, out of the blue. CHAIRPERSON: 10 I ’ m s o r r y, w h a t i s t h e o u t o f t h e b l u e part. ADV HULLEY SC: I’d asked earlier on why the witness had indicated previously that the letters…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY Oh, the warning statement? SC: That had been written to Ms Ncubshiane to Mr Sibiya – General Sibiya, why did he consider that to be, out of the blue and…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes but let’s get – let’s m ove out of t h i s a r e a i n a p r o p e r w a y. C a n I a c c e p t t h a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a f a c t u a l b a s i s t o s a y, M r S e s o k o a n d M r K h u b a k n e w 20 before Mr McBride came what position…[intervenes]. M R J U LY : What position he was going to take. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That is very interesting to note that. CHAIRPERSON: ADV O k a y, a l r i g h t . HULLEY Ye s , o k a y, M r H u l l e y ? SC: So to take Page 93 of 255 that to its logical 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 conclusion, the fact that a – or specifically that Mr Khuba had attempted to get these additional statements from General Sibiya – from Ms Ncubshiane, that you’re not suggesting and you can’t suggest, as a fact that Mr McBride had factually got involved in the investigation before the 3rd of March, in other words before his arrival? M R J U LY : I can’t say as a matter of fact but whether it happened – ja can’t say as a matter of fact. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 And you have no evidence, as I understand it from your affidavit, you have no evidence – there’s nobody’s that’s told you that, that happened, you’ve not seen an em ail to that effect? M R J U LY : we are not even dealing with that in my affidavit. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : here Ye s , y e s . I’m not even dealing with that but I’m raising it because we are talking and people have been allowed, like McBride to say things that were not in the affidavit. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I must say that I do wish us to go to the question of the actual findings at some stage. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: Pardon me, Mr Chair? I would like us to go to the findings of the Werksm ans report as soon as you are able to in terms of – because as I see it, I mean, the one point is that this Page 94 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Commission is not looking at whether his findings were correct or not correct, that’s not what we are doing and it may well be that they may be unjustified and – or justified, that might still not, you know take us anywhere but one is looking at whether there’s anything that shows anything beyond that but it’s just that, in order to get there, sometimes you have to look at…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Preceding events? Ja, ja. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Remember my initial question to you was, how you came to the conclusion that you did, you’ve explained quite a bit. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: What I was really interested in was actually how you came to that conclusion with reference to your report, if you could take us through that process, that was the question I was very interested in. M R J U LY : O k a y, t h e c o n c l u s i o n – t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f c o n c l u s i o n s t h a t w e a r e m a k i n g , C h a i r, i n t h e r e p o r t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we won’t be interested in all of them, we’ll only be interested in some. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: I’ll refer the witness specifically to a conclusion in relation to the, defeating the ends of justice. Page 95 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 MR J U LY : Ye s , C h a i r, how we come to that conclusion…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry which one is that? ADV HULLEY SC: 186 of bundle S o , M r C h a i r, i f w e c a n t u r n t o p a g e LEA1 it’s Exhibit Y8(A) and it’s the Werksm ans report and specifically at page 186 of that bundle. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay I am at the – on the last page of the report you want me to go to page? 10 ADV HULLEY SC: Mr July if you look at the spine, you’ll see Y8, you’re looking specifically for LEA1. M R J U LY : I don’t seem to have…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: Remember that’s the Bundle that has the affidavit of Mr Nhleko in it. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: I believe you had it previously when I referred to it. M R J U LY : I ’ v e g o t i t i n t h e s m a l l B u n d l e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : Would som ebody help Mr July please. Oh, hears it and you said page? ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Page 186. 1-8-6. ADV HULLEY SC: Now we’ve read the conclusion, we don’t have to repeat it and I was specifically concerned with how you came to the conclusion that one of the three Page 96 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 of them, in terms of your recommendation might be guilty of the charge of defeating the ends of justice or obstructing the administration of justice. M R J U LY : Ye s , C h a i r, y o u w o u l d r e c a l l t h e e v i d e n c e s – we interviewed Mr Khuba and we interviewed Mr Khuba three times then we interviewed Mr Sesoko and we interviewed Mr McBride. When we came to the issue of the d e l e t i o n o f i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e r e p o r t , i n p a r t i c u l a r, w i t h M r K h u b a , M r K h u b a u n d e r s t o o d h i s a n a l y s i s a n d s a y, I h a d t o 10 change my analysis of the report because I was convinced otherwise, right. the report. Then Mr Sesoko says, I have never seen Mr McBride adopts the same attitude that, I’ve never seen the report. So, there’s the denial of the existence of the first report, there is denial by all of them, even here they came to this Commission, not even a single one of them said, we deleted the information. What you going to be – are told is that the analysis was changed because we reconsidered the evidence because the evidence was unsustainable, that’s what you are t old but 20 that part cannot be divorced to the fact that the report that was filed on the 22nd, if you accept that the one that was filed on the 22nd was final, you will make that conclusion, C h a i r, h a v i n g r e a d t h e s t a t u t e s a n d e v e r y t h i n g . If it was final, now the question should be, why was it retrieved, to do what? Now when you look at the conduct of what Page 97 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 happened when it is retrieved, not only is the analysis that is being changed. I have no issue when a person changing his mind because he has been influenced or convinced, genuinely so, otherwise but I’ve got an issue with a person that’s going to delete evidence in order to justify the analysis. Let me give you an example of the deletion of evidence, Matalonge is dead, nobody doesn’t know that he’s a dead man. Yo u c a n ’ t g o a n d d e l e t e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was said by Matalonge without Matalonge’s permission and 10 you can’t get it because he’s dead. So that information will sit there but you may have a different view and understanding and analysis when you look at Matalonge’s statement, leave it the way it is, don’t tamper with that evidence because it is evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Well I’m happy that we have got to this p o i n t , i t ’ s o n e o f t h e i m p o r t a n t p o i n t s a b o u t t h i s m a t t e r. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: My understanding when the IPID w i t n e s s e s g a v e e v i d e n c e a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g u p t o n o w, 20 and I raised it with Mr Nhleko a few days ago was that when you talk about alteration and changing of the report, the discussion about alteration or changing of the report does not include interfering or changing anything in the statements of witnesses and I just want to check whether that’s your understanding as well or you have a different Page 98 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 understanding? M R J U LY : I l i s t e n e d t o t h e m m i s l e a d i n g y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : I listened to that, misleading you that all what they changed was their analysis. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : They were lying. CHAIRPERSON: What they did, they went to the statement of Matalonge, Matalonge said, I pick up a phone, I phoned 10 m y b o s s e s t o s a y, h e r e a r e t h e Z i m b a b w e a n P o l i c e , t h e y w a n t t o g e t i n t o t h e c o u n t r y, d o I a l l o w t h e m , t h e y ’ r e s a y i n g they want to go to Dramat. T h e s e b o s s e s , t h e y s a y, n o , no, speak to – please call him, they give him permission, he calls Dramat and he says, there are people who want to c o m e a n d s e e y o u i n t h e c o u n t r y, t h a t o n i t s o w n i s a problem because if you are coming to the country you must produce documents not a call, you don’t call people right. Yo u c o m e w i t h t h e v a l i d d o c u m e n t s y o u m u s t g o t h r o u g h the police. 20 N o w, t h e r e ’ s a c a l l , t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n , M r C h a i r, is deleted and it’s said by Matalonge it’s not an analysis. CHAIRPERSON: Well when we go in the bundles to the see that part – but maybe before you go to bundle, Mr Matalonge’s stat ement that you say they changed, was it handwritten or was it typed? M R J U LY : Matalonge had three statements, the one Page 99 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 statement internal Matalonge disciplinary made, hearing when and in that 2 0 11 , during statement is the the statement that Khuba says, I called Matalonge I said, Matalonge you’re lying, this information that is contained in this statement is a lie. I’ve got a warrant of arrest, I’m going to arrest you for lies, Matalonge says, no you can com e let’s talks, Matalonge goes and speaks with Khuba. T h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t w a s t a k e n b y K h u b a n o w, i t ’ s t h e t y p e d one, 10 that second one. So, you have a 2 0 11 one, where statement…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Which is handwritten. Which is handwritten. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h e n y o u h a v e a 2 0 11 w h i c h i s t y p e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR J U LY : And then you have another Matalonge says I am confirming that the landline that you mentioned – that ’s towards the end, the landline t hat you mentioned in this – in the – I think during – the number 20 that was used that, that landline is the landline that he used to call Dramat, so you’ve got three. CHAIRPERSON: But the one that is typed, which is, I think you say that’s the one that was changed. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Matalonge sign that one as well? Page 100 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : He signed. CHAIRPERSON: He signed it? M R J U LY : He signed all the statements. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, were they – that particular one, because you say that’s the one that was changed, did he initial every page or only sign the last page? M R J U LY : Chair this happens, the statem ent, it’s written, it’s copied because that’s what they do, they copy the statements to the report right. 10 So, you copy the statement to the report and then when the new – the second report was written you go to the statement that has been copied to the report – remember now you don’t have to go to the statement itself and delete the statement. Yo u n o w g o t o the report and in your report where you mention that this is what Matalonge said, he said 1, 2, 3, 4 you then say in the second report he said 1, 2, 4, 5 you leave out 3, right. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t – I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b u t I ’ m s t i l l a t the point of saying, the typed statement for Mr Matalonge did he sign every page or you don’t remember whether he 20 did or not? M R J U LY : I think he did. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u t h i n k h e d i d , o k a y w e c a n c h e c k i n due course. M R J U LY : I think he did. CHAIRPERSON: And if he did the Page 101 of 255 only way in which 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 anybody could change that statement, I guess, would have to be by hand. M R J U LY : Ja. CHAI RPERSO N: By hand, that’s now what happened. M R J U LY : No, no, no. CHAI RPERSO N: That’s not what happened? M R J U LY : N o , n o , n o , C h a i r, t h a t ’ s w h y I w a s s a y i n g C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M R J U LY : I write a statem ent, I type it, whether it’s handwritten or it’s typed. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I g i v e i t t o w h o e v e r. T h a t p e r s o n c o p i e s t h e statement to the report. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : He writes the report and says, Sandile says he was at the State Commission on the 31st of March. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : 20 I mean of July – 31st of July 2020. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : Right, you write that in the report. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : Because there’s a st atement which says that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : But now – because the 31st of July I’ve done Page 102 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 something somewhere, you want to remove the 31st in the r e p o r t n o w, n o t I t h e s t a t e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : Yo u r e m o v e i t i n t h e r e p o r t a n d y o u w r i t e 2 9 . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y, n o , n o I t h i n k w e a r e g e t t i n g t o o the important part. So, it looks like we are moving back to what I thought, what I understood to be the position. So physically the typed statement of Mr Matalonge is not interfered with. 10 M R J U LY : It’s not, no, no it’s not interfered. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t h a s h a p p e n e d i s t h a t t h e r e ’ s a change of what Mr Khuba says in his report. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: About what the statement says. M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y, h e s t o p s r e f e r r i n g t o c e r t a i n parts of the statement. M R J U LY : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t ’ s f i n e s o a s I s e e i t , t e l l m e 20 what you say to this. So, the objectionable conduct, from your point of view is actually that in his report Mr Khuba doesn’t give what you consider a fair summary of Matalonge’s stat ement. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAI RPERSO N: That’s it, yes. Page 103 of 255 Mr 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAI RPERSO N: And that’s where the issue is? M R J U LY : T h a t ’ s w h e r e t h e i s s u e i s M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, M r H u l l e y ? ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you Mr C h a i r. So, if I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, y o u r t r u e c o m p l a i n t , r e l a t e s , n o t t o the fact that the docket was in any way tampered with or any statement within the docket was tampered with. Yo u r true complaint relates to the fact that the two IPID reports, 10 what we’ve referred to as the first report and the second report that insofar as the first report was concerned the information capturing or summarising what was contained in the docket was not – had been removed and was not accurately reflected in the second report. M R J U LY : Chair I will respond by saying you know when you read the documents you will realise how Khuba used to 20 write his reports. He would put the statement the way it was said to him. And the way you know read what is the statement says. He would write exactly what that person says. It may be in a summary form but it contains exactly what that person says. Now the complaint is that Khuba – they – although they did not touch the docket and I will tell you why they could not touch the docket. They could not touch the docket because it would seem that they were running out of time. Page 104 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: They were running? M R J U LY : R u n n i n g o u t o f t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : This issue was being outstanding Chair this issue comes from 2010. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : E v e n l o n g b e f o r e M i n i s t e r – t h e f o r m e r M i n i s t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Minister Nhleko. M R J U LY : M r N h l e k o . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : 2 0 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : That is when this whole thing started. Parliament raising issues. And What happened to the killing of the people of Zimbabwe? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Right. Then what then happened is Khuba changes the statement in his report because they could not be able to remove the information. 20 Why I am saying they were running out of time. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : O n t h e 7 M a r c h t h e d o c k e t i s c o l l e c t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : F r o m Va n Z y l . I n f a c t l e t m e s a y Va n Z y l because it was sent to Advocate Chauke. Advocate Chauke Page 105 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 g i v e t h e d o c k e t t o Va n Z y l w h o h a p p e n s t o b e h i s j u n i o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Va n Z y l i s l o o k i n g – b e f o r e h e l o o k e d a t t h e document the document the docket has been collected. Remember Chair you asked a question to Mr McBride. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : When you were briefed McBride were you briefed verbally? There was no information that was given t o h i m . M c B r i d e s a i d , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : W h e n I h a v e g o t o p p o r t u n i t y, I w i l l d e a l w i t h t h a t issue. Now talking back to the docket. Yo u a s k e d a question when the docket comes back to you did it have the report? H e s a y s , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. Yo u p e r s i s t w i t h t h e question. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : N o . T h e d o c k e t – t h e r e p o r t w h e n i t g o e s t o t h e N PA – w h e n t h e d o c k e t g o e s t o t h e N PA h a s t h e r e p o r t . Yo u asked that question. 20 And you said but when it comes back is it not that the report must be there? He says no it was not there. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : That is the vision that – so – the – on the number – from the 7th March then you have an information note on the 10th March, 3 days after the docket has been Page 106 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 received. It is an information note to Minister Mthethwa saying Minister the investigation is complete. CHAIRPERSON: Wo u l d – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n M i n i s t e r Nhleko at that time. M R J U LY : N o M t h e t h w a . N h l e k o s t a r t e d M a y. CHAIRPERSON: Is it not 2014? Is it not in 2014? Oh in March. M R J U LY : M a r c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. 10 M R J U LY : M i n i s t e r M t h e t h w a . M a r c h i t i s s t i l l M t h e t h w a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y y e s j a . M R J U LY : Ye s . He writes to Minister Mthethwa to say the investigation is now complete. All what we are busy doing we are analysing the evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Analysing? M R J U LY : T h e e v i d e n ce . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e vi d e n c e y e s. M R J U LY : S o m e a n i n g t h a t w e a r e st i l l g o i n g t o s u b m i t t h e re p o rt n o w t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i s c o m p l e t e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h i s i s t h e p e r so n w h o s a i d I o r d e r e d K h u b a a n d S e s o k o t o d o f u rt h e r i n v e st i g a t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : H e s a y s t h a t t o yo u i n t h e 1 7 / 1 8 – I m e a n w h e n he was here in April. I t h i n k h e w a s h e r e i n A p r i l 11 / 1 2 – Page 107 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 1 3 t h A p ri l . H e s a y s t o y o u , I o rd e r e d K h u b a a n d S e s o k o t o d o f u rt h e r i n v e st i g a t i o n s. S o t h a t f u rt h e r i n v e st i g a t i o n C h a i r w o u l d h a ve h a p p e n e d i n t h e 1 8 t h a n d t h e 1 9 t h b e ca u s e o n t h e 10th M cB ri d e unequivocally says the i n v e st i g a t i o n is c o m p l e t e . M cB ri d e d o e s n o t s h o w y o u a n yt h i n g w h i c h s a y s t h i s i s w h a t w e i n v e st i g a t e d d u ri n g t h e t i m e a l ri g h t . I t i s t h e same docket. 10 N o w i t g o e s t o t h e i m p o rt a n c e o f t h e re p o rt . B e c a u s e y o u a r e t o l d t h e s e r e p o rt s a re b e i n g i g n o r e d . But t h e se are r e p o rt s are informational C h a i r. i n f o r m a t i o n a l i n a n u m b e r o f re a s o n s. They B e c a u s e t h e p e r so n e v e n i f yo u r e a d t h e d o c k e t y o u d e ci d e t o r e a d t h e d o c k e t y o u c a n n o t a v o i d t o s a y w h a t i s I P I D s a yi n g ? s a yi n g ? What is IPID S o i f t h e N PA c a n t a k e a d e ci si o n w i t h – a n d t h a t d e ci si o n i s n o t b e c a u s e t h e y a re b o u n d b y t h e d o c k e t – I mean by the r e p o rt they can take a d i ff e r e n t b e ca u s e t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a r e n o t b i n d i n g . d e ci si o n Why not l e a vi n g – w h y d o y o u n o t l e a ve t h a t d o c k e t a n d t h e r e p o rt o f the 22nd January? B e c a u s e N PA i s g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o d e t e r m i n e t h a t t h i s e vi d e n ce i s u n su st a i n a b l e . 20 N PA c a n re a c h t h a t co n cl u si o n t h a t t h e r e p o rt t h a t i s s u b m i t t e d b y Khuba which u n su st a i n a b l e . say we m u st charge these people is Why does it take you to go and take the d o c ke t t o a n a l y s e w h e n t h a t ve r y a n a l y si s t h a t y o u a re d o i n g i s g o i n g t o b e d o n e a g a i n b y t h e N PA ? C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l … Page 108 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: q u e st i o n answered. I am I h a ve – I a ct u a l l y a s k e d a m u c h si m p l e r not sure that my q u e st i o n was in f a ct I w a s t ryi n g t o s u m m a r i s e w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t o b e y o u r c a se i n s o f a r a s t h e d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f t h e j u st i c e w a s c o n ce r n e d . M y q u e st i o n w a s s p e ci f i c a l l y i f I u n d e r st a n d c o r r e ct l y y o u a r e n o t m a ki n g t h e p o i n t t h a t a n yt h i n g i n t h e d o c ke t i t s e l f h a d b e e n d e l e t e d o r t a m p e r e d w i t h . 10 That is p o i n t n u m b e r. C o rr e ct ? M R J U LY : T h a t i s t h e … ADV HULLEY SC: Yo u r a s s e s s m e n t o f t h e si t u a t i o n a s o u t l i n e d i n y o u r r e p o rt i s t h a t t h e d e f e a t i n g o f t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e st e m s f r o m t h e f a ct t h a t t h e t w o r e p o rt s – t h e f i r st re p o rt a c c u r a t e l y ca p t u r e s t h e d o c k e t w h e re a s t h e se c o n d re p o rt h a s i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n t a k e n o u t a n d d o e s n o t a c c u r a t e l y c a p t u r e t h e d o c k e t . I s t h a t c o r re ct ? M R J U LY : Yu p . ADV HULLEY SC: 20 N o w o n y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f c o u r s e i t w o u l d b e – i f t h a t a m o u n t e d t o d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e a n d w e w i l l g e t t o h o w yo u g e t t h e r e i n a m o m e n t b u t i f t h a t w e re a c cu r a t e i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t i f a n i n v e st i g a t o r w e re t o g i v e a n i n a c cu r a t e a c c o u n t o f w h a t i s co n t a i n e d i n t h e d o c ke t – f o r g e t a b o u t – I a m t a l ki n g g e n e r a l l y – h e g i v e s a f i n a l re p o rt b u t i t i s n o t – i t i s n o t a n a c c u r a t e r e f l e ct i o n . I t i s n o t Page 109 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a f a i r r e f l e ct i o n o f w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e d o c k e t a n d h e c o m e s t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e r e i s n o c a s e t o b e m e t o r n o c h a r g e s t o b e b r o u g h t a g a i n st t h e p e r so n w h o i s b e i n g i n v e st i g a t e d . M R J U LY : H m . ADV HULLEY SC: On the argument that you now presenting i t s e e m s t o s u g g e st t h a t t h a t w o u l d a m o u n t t o d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e a s w e l l . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? MR 10 J U LY : Then you deliberately intentionally remove i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h w o u l d a s s i st t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s t o m a k e a d e ci si o n . T h a t i s m i sl e a d i n g . T h e r e i s a n i n t e n t i o n a n d t h a t – w h a t i s t h e j u st i c e t h a t i s s u p p o se d t o h a p p e n ? The j u st i c e t h a t i s s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n i s t h a t p e o p l e w h o a r e i n v o l v e d i n t h e r e n d i t i o n m u st b e b ro u g h t t o b o o k. t h e j u st i c e . That is N o w w h e n y o u w a n t – y o u d o so m e t h i n g t o d e f e a t t h a t e n d o f j u st i c e t o h a p p e n y o u w ri t e a r e p o r t m u c h a s t h e r e p o rt i s a re c o m m e n d a t i o n b u t y o u d e l i b e r a t e l y w ri t e i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h se e k s t o m i sl e a d t h e p e r s o n w h o i s g o i n g t o m a k e a d e ci s i o n . T h a t C h a i r i t i s a p r o b l e m . R e m e m b e r I 20 st a rt e d b y s a yi n g t h i s w a s S e ct i o n 2 8 i n ve st i g a t i o n s . Th e y a r e n o t j u st a n y t y p e o f r e p o rt s. Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Nhleko. We l l l e t m e p u t t o yo u w h a t I p u t t o M r W h e r e t h e i n v e st i g a t o r p l a c e s b e f o r e t h e N PA h i s re p o rt p a rt o f w h i c h s e e k s t o s u m m a ri s e , w h a t i s i n t h e st a t e m e n t s o f t h e w i t n e s se s a n d t h e d o c k e t b u t p l a c e s – b u t Page 110 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 h a s i n p a rt a t l e a st w ro n g l y o r i n a c c u r a t e l y o r i n a d e q u a t e l y s u m m a ri se d t h e c o n t e n t s o f st a t e m e n t s i n t h e d o c k e t . But h e m a k e s a va i l a b l e t o t h e N PA t h o s e st a t e m e n t s a s w e l l . M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h h a ve g o t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t h e h a s n o t c o r r e ct l y o r a d e q u a t e l y c a p t u re d i n t h e r e p o rt a n d h e k n o w s b e c a u se I t a k e i t t h e y k n o w t h a t t h e d e ci si o n m a k e r a t t h e N PA i s g o i n g t o r e a d t h e st a t e m e n t s i n t h e d o c k e t w h i ch h a ve – w h i c h h a s g o t t h e i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t h e m i g h t n o t h a v e 10 c o r r e ct l y c a p t u r e d i n h i s r e p o rt . A n d t h e r e f o r e , t h e d e ci si o n m a k e r w i l l st i l l h a v e a c o m p l e t e p i ct u r e . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H o w d o yo u s a y t h a t p e r s o n i n t e n d s t o d e f e a t t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e ? MR J U LY : No Chair yo u st a r t e d by s a yi n g a person i n a c c u r a t e l y s u m m a ri s e s t h e r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : B u t I a m s a yi n g t h a t w a s n o t a n a c c u r a t e re c o r d i n g o f t h e s u m m a r y o f t h e st a t e m e n t s. 20 intentional deletion of information with the It was an intention to m i sl e a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : T h a t i s t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t w e c a m e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : We s a i d t h i s w a s d o n e i n t e n t i o n a l l y. Page 111 of 255 It is not a 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 p e r s o n w h o i s w ri t i n g t h e re p o rt b e c a u se i t h a p p e n s. We d o re c o r d t h i n g s s o m e t i m e s n o t a c c u r a t e l y. I h a v e n o p r o b l e m – I have no qualms with that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. M R J U LY : B u t i f y o u l o o k a t t h e p a t t e r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : H o w i t w a s d o n e t h e i n t e n t i o n w a s t o m i sl e a d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : N o w h e r e i s t h e p a rt . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : D o yo u d o t h a t su c c e s sf u l l y ? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Yo u c a n n o t s a y w h e n y o u a r e f o u n d t o h a v e b e e n m i sl e d y o u s a y n o w si m p l y b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e st a t e m e n t s t h a t w e r e i n cl u d e d . Yo u d i d n o t su c c e e d t o m i sl e a d . B u t y o u w e re m i sl e a d i n g i n y o u r re p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : 20 C h a i r w e ca m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n – a n o t h e r p e r s o n c a n co m e t o a d i ff e r e n t co n cl u si o n . We c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n the st a rt i n g from re t ri e v e d – t h e d o c k e t ? why was it in Why was it retrieved? f i r st p l a ce And not be l e f t w i t h t h e N PA t o m a ke t h e i r o w n d e ci si o n a n d re a d t h e v e r y i n f o r m a t i o n a n d c o m e t o a c o n cl u si o n . Yo u d e ci d e t o t a k e i t i n o rd e r t o s a n i t i s e t h e re p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e yo u m a y b e ri g h t i n h o w y o u vi e w Page 112 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 it. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t b e r i g h t . M R J U LY : Yu p . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h e d e ci si o n m a k e r i f t o t h e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t o r t h e d e ci si o n m a ke r a t N PA w a s g o i n g t o re l y o n l y o n t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e st a t e m e n t s w o u l d n o t b e t h e r e I t h i n k t h e r e w o u l d b e q u i t e a st r o n g c a s e . Now I am not s a yi n g t h e r e i s n o c a s e f o r w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g b u t I a m 10 e x p l o ri n g . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: How as I understand the position at the – t h e d e ci si o n m a k e r a t t h e N PA w o u l d n o t b e e x p e ct e d t o m a k e a d e ci si o n w i t h o u t r e a d i n g t h e st a t e m e n t s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H e m a y r e a d – h e o r sh e m a y r e a d b o t h t h e r e p o rt a n d t h e st a t e m e n t s b u t I d o n o t b e l i e v e t h e y w o u l d re a d t h e r e p o rt w i t h o u t t h e st a t e m e n t s. I think they would ra t h e r r e a d t h e st a t e m e n t s. 20 M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t t h e re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e y w e r e p re s s e d f o r t i m e o r a n yt h i n g like that. M R J U LY : Ye s. Page 113 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: B e ca u s e t h e i r d e ci si o n m u st b e – m u st t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h e st a t e m e n t s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: N o w w h a t I a m s a yi n g i s w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t t h e d e ci si o n m a k e r w i l l s e e a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t i s i n t h e st a t e m e n t s h o w c a n w e i n t e n d w h a t e ve r y o u d o i n y o u r re p o rt b e ca u s e y o u k n o w h e w i l l re a d t h e st a t e m e n t s h o w c a n y o u b e i n t e n d i n g t o m a k e h i m a rri v e a t a w r o n g d e ci si o n by not telling him information that he will see anyway in the 10 st a t e m e n t s. T h a t i s w h a t I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o d e a l w i t h . M R J U LY : I kn o w C h a i r t h a t i s p r o b l e m a t i c. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : B u t t h e q u e st i o n c o u l d b e a s w e l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : W h a t co u l d b e t h e r e a s o n t h e n f o r a p e r so n t o d e l e t e t h a t i n f o rm a t i o n ? Yo u a l re a d y h a ve i t i n t h e r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : W h a t y o u n e e d t o d o i s t o a n a l y s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 20 M R J U LY : Yo u r r e p o rt a n d c h a n g e y o u r a n a l y si s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : But leave the information. T h e q u e st i o n sh o u l d b e w h y d e l e t i n g i t i n t h e f i r st p l a c e ? CHAIRPERSON: No, no I accept that one may have to look at why was it deleted? B u t I t h i n k y o u m u st t e l l m e i f I Page 114 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 m i s u n d e r st a n d y o u . I t h i n k y o u a n d I a re – a r e q u i t e cl o s e i n t e r m s o f s a yi n g o n t h e f a c e o f i t a t l e a st i f h e k n o w s t h a t t h e d e ci si o n maker will read the st a t e m e n t s t h e r e f o re the d e ci si o n m a k e r w i l l se e a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t h e m i g h t n o t h a ve i n cl u d e d i n t h e – i n t h e r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: O n t h e f a ce o f i t o n e w o u l d e xp e ct t h a t h e w o u l d s a y b u t t h e re i s n o p o i n t i n d e l e t i n g t h i s i n f o rm a t i o n i n o r d e r t o i n f l u e n ce h i m t o a r ri ve a t a c e rt a i n d e ci si o n w h e n h e 10 i s g o i n g t o s e e t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e st a t e m e n t s a n y w a y. Yo u k n o w. Of course, if you deal with somebody that you k n o w h e i s n o t g o i n g t o r e a d t h e st a t e m e n t s . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: H e i s j u st g o i n g t o r e a d y o u r re p o rt t h a t m i g h t b e d i ff e r e n t . M R J U LY : I w a s g o i n g t h e r e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : To s a y w e d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 20 M R J U LY : We d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : A n yt h i n g i s p o s si b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : A n yt h i n g i s p o s si b l e b e c a u se t h e re i s n o re a s o n why I would want to delete information if I do not think that Page 115 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a t s o m e p o i n t t h i s p e r s o n m a y d e c i d e t o r e a d o n l y m y r e p o rt . B e c a u s e m y r e p o r t s u m m a ri s e s t h e st at e m e n t s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Of these people. O t h e r w i se t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n w h y I sh o u l d d e l e t e t h i s i n f o rm a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : I f I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t m y r e p o rt i s g o i n g t o influence you, I would not even delete it. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja . 10 M R J U LY : B u t i f I b e l i e v e t h a t a t s o m e – yo u m a y l o o k a t m y re p o rt a n d b e c o n vi n c e d b y m y r e p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I c a m e t o t h e co n cl u si o n a n o t h e r p e r s o n ca n c o m e t o a d i ff e r e n t c o n c l u si o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : H o w d i d t h e c o n cl u si o n b a s e d o n t h e f a ct s t h a t w e re b e f o r e m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. We l l of co u r s e whether that – whether the – the reason for changing the relevant – that 20 p a rt o f t h e r e p o rt o r d e l e t i n g c e rt a i n i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e re p o rt . We l l t h e re a s o n w a s t h e o n e t h a t yo u c o n cl u d e d w a s t h e r e a s o n o r i s a n o t h e r o n e t h a t o n e m i g h t i n v o l v e l o o ki n g a t t h e a ct u a l i n f o r m a t i o n deleted re a s o n i s t h a t w a s a d v a n c e d . d i s c u s si o n we – I ce rt a i n l y and hearing what the But I think through this u n d e r st a n d Page 116 of 255 I think you 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 u n d e r st a n d . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Where I was coming from. M R J U LY : I d o . I d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y. T h a n k y o u . M r H u l l e y w e – A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: I see we are at one. I a m n o t a l w a y s ve r y g o o d w i t h e st i m a t i n g t i m e a b o u t h o w l o n g a n yt h i n g w o u l d take. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But the one thing I think has happened is t h a t w e c e rt a i n l y h a ve c o ve r e d q u i t e i m p o rt a n t p a rt s a s f a r a s I a m c o n ce r n e d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t h i n k s o a s w e l l Mr C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m i g h t n o t b e i t i s e v e r yt h i n g b u t c e rt a i n l y q u i t e s o m e p a rt . adjournment. We – I t h i n k w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e l u n c h M r J u l y a n d M r N g c u k a i t o b i t h e re i s a m a t t e r c o m i n g u p a t t w o . I t i s a n a p p l i c a t i o n – i t i s a c e rt a i n a p p l i ca t i o n . 20 W h e n w e co m e b a c k m a y b e I c o u l d j u st d e a l with that because I do not think it should take long and then we continue. But I might be told something that might s u g g e st t h a t w e s h o u l d f i n i s h f i r st a n d t h e y – t h e y s h o u l d a r g u e t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n a f t e r. I s t h a t f i n e w i t h y o u ? M R J U LY : N o t a p r o b l e m M r C h a i r. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : I t w o u l d b e f i n e f o r u s C h a i r. Page 117 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : I s t h e i r i n t e n t i o n t o f i n i s h M r J u l y’ s e vi d e n c e t h i s a f t e rn o o n ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, y e s ce rt a i n l y f ro m m y si d e b u t h a vi n g s a i d t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t I h a v e j u st sa i d a b o u t m y p o o r e st i m a t i o n s ki l l s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : No the only reason I ask is whether w e s h o u l d m a ke a p r o vi si o n t o b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t o m o rr o w ? 10 A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : We l l f o r M o n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o – o h t o d a y i s F ri d a y. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I d o n o t t h i n k y o u sh o u l d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : M o n d a y i s o u t o f t h e q u e st i o n . CHAIRPERSON: N o I d o n o t t h i n k so . I do not think you should. If you ask me and again, I warn that my – sometime m y e st i m a t i o n i s b a d . I d o n o t se e t h a t w e s h o u l d t a k e a f t e r – t a ke a n h o u r a f t e r – w e l l I – w i t h h i m a f t e r l u n c h . I am l o o ki n g a t M r H u l l e y. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: I a m ke e n l y a w a r e o f y o u r st a r e M r Chairperson. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: I t i s d i ff i c u l t t o e st i m a t e b e c a u s e I w o u l d t h o u g h t t h a t w e w o u l d t a ke n o m o r e t h a n t w o a n d a h a l f h o u r s a t m o st . Page 118 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V H U L L E Y S C : P o s si b l y e v e n i n cl u d i n g w i t h t h e p o t e n t i a l re - e x a m i n a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja . A D V H U L L E Y S C : B u t t h a t cl e a rl y h a s n o t h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I h a d a n u m b e r o f q u e st i o n s t h a t I w i sh t o a s k. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: We h a v e b e g u n t o d e l v e i n t o m a t t e r s re l a t i n g t o t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e r e p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t w e r e n o t n e ce s s a ri l y p a rt o f m y i n i t i a l q u e st i o n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e , a s I sa i d t h e c o m m i s si o n i s n o t h e r e t o d e t e rm i n e w h e t h e r h e i s c o n cl u si o n s a n d f i n d i n g s a re ri g h t o r w r o n g . T h a t ki n d o f t h i n g s o t h a t o u g h t t o s h o rt e n the proceedings but we do need to look at what needs to be l o o k e d a t p r o p e r l y. 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I – I c e rt a i n l y t h i n k w e w i l l f i n i s h t o d a y. I h o p e w e d o n o t h a ve t o g o u p t o f o u r o ’ cl o c k t o f i n i s h . So ja A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. O k a y l e t u s t a ke t h e l u n c h Page 119 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 adjournment now and then we will resume at two and then I w i l l t h e n i n d i c a t e w h e t h e r I w i l l h e a r t h e a rg u m e n t i n t h a t m a t t e r o r w h e t h e r w e c o m p l e t e a n d f i n i s h f i r st w i t h t h i s o n e . We a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : A l l ri s e . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: 10 We a r e i n t e r ru p t i n g t h e h e a ri n g o f M r J u l y’s e v i d e n c e t o e n a b l e m e t o d e a l w i t h a n a p p l i ca t i o n t h a t i s. . . t h a t w a s s e t d o w n f o r t w o o ’ c l o c k t h a t w a s b r o u g h t b y Judge Makhubele for me to c o n si d e r or r e c o n si d e r. . . c o n si d e r a m e n d i n g a d i r e ct i v e t h a t I i ss u e d o n Fri d a y l a st w e e k f o r h e r t o f i l e ce rt a i n a ff i d a vi t s b y We d n e s d a y t h i s w e e k a n d t o a p p e a r i n p e r so n b e f o r e m e o n M o n d a y a t t e n o ’ cl o c k. M r S o n i ? Ye s, s w i t c h o n y o u r m i c. ADV SONI SC: Chairperson, you will... as you i n d i c a t e d o n F ri d a y, l a st w e e k, t h a t i s t h e 2 4 t h o f J u l y. have Yo u i s s u e d a d i r e ct i ve a n d t h e e ff e ct o f t h e d i r e ct i v e w a s t h a t i n 20 re s p e ct o f t h e a ff i d a vi t s f i l e d b y M s N g o ye , M r D i n g i s w a y o , Mr Makaswa and Mr Achmat. J u d g e M a k h u b e l e w a s t o h a v e f i l e d h e r a n s w e r, h e r re s p o n s e by We d n e s d a y, the 29th of J u l y. DCJ, what h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f t e r i s, w e h a v e r e c e i v e d n o t h i n g o n t h e 2 9 t h b u t i n t h e e a rl y h o u r s o f T h u r sd a y m o r n i n g , t h a t i s t h e 3 0 t h , Page 120 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 w e r e c e i v e d a n a ff i d a vi t t o g e t h e r w i t h a n n e xu r e s f r o m Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e b u t n o t f ro m h e r a t t o r n e y s, a n d t h a t a ff i d a vi t h a s been placed before you. S u b s e q u e n t l y, w e a l so r e ce i ve d a n o t i c e o f m o t i o n . The e ff e ct o f t h a t a p p l i c a t i o n r e a d t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e n o t i ce o f m o t i o n i s t h a t J u d g e M a k h u b e l e r e q u i r e s t h a t . . . o r r e q u e st s t h a t t h e d i r e ct i v e b e va ri e d a m e n d e d , e ff e ct i v e l y n o t b e i n t h e t e rm s t h a t i t i s . A n d sh e a s k s t h a t s h e b e g i v e n u n t i l t h e 3 r d o f A u g u st t o 10 f i l e h e r r e s p o n d i n g a ff i d a v i t a n d t h a t s h e o n l y a p p e a r s o n t h e 8 t h o f A u g u st b e f o re y o u C h a i r p e r so n . That is the application that she filed. filed a re s p o n d i n g a ff i d a vi t in which T h e C o m m i s si o n we oppose the a p p l i ca t i o n . I j u st w a n t t o p o i n t o u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s c a l l i t t h e L e g a l Te a m o f t h e C o m m i s si o n f i l e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV SONI SC: I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SONI SC: 20 j u st point out I t w a s t h e L e g a l Te a m . the... j u st for record B a si ca l l y. . . m a y I purposes? Judge M a k h u b e l e ’s a ff i d a vi t w a s 7 7 p a g e s l o n g . O u r a ff i d a vi t i s f i v e p a g e s l o n g a n d w e s a y t h a t s h e d i d not really address the issue before... that she should have, t h i s i s su e , n a m e l y, o n w h a t b a si s i s s e e k i n g a v a ri a t i o n o f t h e o r d e r o r t h e d i re ct i v e t h a t w a s g ra n t e d l a st w e e k. A n d s o Page 121 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 w e p e r si st i n o u r o p p o si t i o n t o t h e r e l i e f t h a t s h e se e k s. CHAIRPERSON: The appearance for her or is she here? ADV SONI SC: D C J, w h a t h a p p e n e d . . . C h a i r p e r s o n , w h a t h a p p e n e d n e xt i s t h a t a f t e r w e f i l e d o u r a ff i d a vi t , a f t e r t h e L e g a l Te a m f i l e d i t s a ff i d a vi t , i t w a s s e r v e d o n t h e a t t o r n e y and Judge Makhubele. We d i d n o t h e a r a n yt h i n g f ro m t h e m u n t i l a b o u t t e n o ’ cl o c k t h i s m o r n i n g w h e n w e r e c e i v e d a n e m a i l f r o m t h e a t t o r n e y s, sa y i n g t h a t t h e y a r e w i t h d r a w i n g a s a t t o r n e y s o f 10 re c o r d f o r J u d g e M a k h u b e l e . We t h e n co m m u n i c a t e d w i t h t h e m t e l e p h o n i c a l l y t o s a y t h a t t h e y s h o u l d , g i v e n t h e l a t e n e s s o f t h e h o u r, t h e y sh o u l d f o r m a l l y s e e k y o u r l e a v e b e f o r e t h e y w i t h d r e w. They phoned about 15-minutes ago to say that their counsel is otherwise engaged. Their junior counsel is not available and they are unable to attend. So that is the p o si t i o n . T h e s e cr e t a r i a t a l s o p h o n e d J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a b o u t h a l f - a n -h o u r a g o , i n f o r m i n g h e r o f t h e f a ct t h a t t h e . . . h e r 20 attorneys had withdrawn and her approach was that she c o u l d n o t b e e x p e ct e d t o b e h e r e . S o e ff e ct i v e l y i n a n s w e r t o y o u r q u e st i o n D C J, t h e r e i s n o a p p e a r a n c e i n s u p p o rt o f t h e a p p l i c a t i o n a n d w h a t y o u h a ve is si m p l e an application on paper with nobody m o t i v a t i n g w h y t h e r e l i e f sh e s e e k s, w h i ch i s q u i t e f a r Page 122 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 re a c h i n g , t o b e g r a n t e d . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. We l l , I d i d r e a d Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e ’s a ff i d a vi t . Yo u s a i d i t w a s 7 7 p a g e s. A D V S O N I S C : I t i s, y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u m e a n t w i t h t h e a n n e xu r e s. A D V S O N I S C : W i t h o u t t h e a n n e x u r e s. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V S O N I S C : T h e a ff i d a vi t i t s e l f i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: 10 T h e a ff i d a vi t w i t h o u t t h e a n n e x u r e i s 4 7 p a g e s. A D V S O N I S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . I t i s 4 7 p a g e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n t h e re a r e a n n e x u re s. By this st a g e , w e d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r s h e . . . w h e t h e r s h e c o u l d b e a v a i l a b l e a t a n y s t a g e l a t e r t h i s a f t e r n o o n a s su m i n g t h a t sh e c o u l d n o t b e h e r e b e c a u se sh e w a s i n v o l v e d i n s o m e m a t t e r i n c o u rt o r b e c a u s e s h e h a d e x p e ct e d h e r l a w y e r s t o b e here. 20 One does not know when she might have got to know t h a t t h e l a w y e r s w i t h d r e w. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We d o n o t k n o w t h a t , h e y ? ADV SONI SC: No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I n c o u rt w h a t o n e w o u l d d o i s st ri k e t h e m a t t e r o ff t h e ro l l . Page 123 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV SONI SC: Indeed. CHAIRPERSON: I think that what we will do is that, I am... I propose not to... I propose to deal with this matter in this w a y. O n e , n o t t o c h a n g e a n yt h i n g i n t h e d i r e ct i ve . I d o n o t . . . Ja , n o t t o c h a n g e a n yt h i n g i n t h e d i r e ct i v e a t t h i s st a g e a n d u n l e s s I d e c i d e o t h e r w i s e , t h e p o si t i o n w o u l d re m a i n b e i n g t h a t t h e d i r e ct i v e i s s u e d o n F ri d a y st a n d s w h i c h m e a n s, o n Mo n d a y J u d g e M a k h u b e l e m u st a p p e a r here. 10 N o w w h e n I r e a d h e r a ff i d a vi t , sh e m a k e s i t cl e a r t h a t o n M o n d a y, t h e j u d g e p r e si d e n t h a s r e l e a se d h e r f r o m h e r w o r k c o m m i t m e n t s a n d a ct u a l l y f o r t h e r e st o f t h e w e e k. S o s h e i s a v a i l a b l e o n M o n d a y b u t s h e w a s a s ki n g t h a t s h e b e g i v e n a c h a n c e t o f i l e t h e a ff i d a vi t s t h a t s h e sh o u l d h a ve f i l e d o n We d n e s d a y t o g e t a c h a n c e t o f i l e t h e m o n M o n d a y a n d sh e w a n t e d t h a t w e m o ve t h e d a t e f o r h e r a p p e a r a n c e t o F ri d a y. B u t i n t h e a ff i d a vi t s, s h e d o e s n o t g i v e a n y r e a s o n w h y i f s h e f i l e s t h e . . . h e r a ff i d a vi t s o n Mo n d a y, w h y t h e . . . h e r 20 e vi d e n c e s h o u l d o n l y b e h e a r d o n F ri d a y. I f I r e c a l l c o rr e ct l y, h e r c o u n s e l h a d i n d i c a t e d l a st F r i d a y t h a t s h e w a s u n d e rt a ki n g t o f i l e h e r a ff i d a vi t s b y e n d o f t h i s w e e k. A D V S O N I S C : B y t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 124 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: We d n e sd a y. The d i r e ct i v e said she m u st file on S o o n e w o u l d h a ve e x p e ct e d t h a t s h e w o u l d h a ve b e e n a b l e t o m e e t h e r o w n d e a d l i n e t h a t s h e h a d u n d e rt a ke n . I t se e m s t o m e t h a t i f o n e h a s r e g a rd t o t h e f a ct t h a t s h e h a s h a d t h e se a ff i d a vi t s o n t h e b a si s o f w h i ch s h e w i l l b e a s k e d q u e st i o n s, s h e h a s h a d s o m e o f t h e m f o r t h e p a st si x m o n t h s a n d t h e l a st b a t c h o f o n l y t w o t h a t s h e h a s h a d f o r 10 t w o m o n t h s. She would have had enough time to familiarise herself w i t h a l l t h e i s s u e s. I t h i n k t h a t t h e p o si t i o n t h a t w i l l r e m a i n w i l l b e t h a t s h e m u st co m e o n M o n d a y. T h e n i f s h e h a s g o t h e r a ff i d a vi t s w h e n s h e c o m e s, t h e n t h e q u e st i o n o f w h e t h e r o r n o t s h e h a d su ff i ci e n t c a u s e o r a p r o p e r e x p l a n a t i o n f o r n o t h a v i n g f i l e d t h e m o n We d n e sd a y, is a matter that can be dealt with then or t h e r e a f t e r, d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t I d i r e ct . S o t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t s h e h a s f i l e d ca n st i l l b e u s e d b y 20 h e r t o s e e k t o j u st i f y w h y s h e w a s n o t a b l e t o f i l e t h e a ff i d a vi t s o n We d n e sd a y b u t s h e w i l l h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d b y then. A n d i f s h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e a ff i d a vi t s b y t e n o ’ cl o c k, t h a t d o e s n o t m e a n h e r e vi d e n c e c a n n o t b e h e a r d . g i v e h e r e vi d e n c e . S h e ca n b e q u e st i o n e d . Page 125 of 255 She can 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 I t m a y w e l l b e t h a t w h e n s h e d e l i v e r s. . . w h e n s h e m a k e s her a ff i d a vi t s available, whether before Monday or on M o n d a y m o r n i n g , i t m a y b e t h a t t h e L e g a l Te a m o f t h e C o m m i s si o n m i g h t t a k e a vi e w t h a t t h e y n e e d t i m e b e f o r e t h e m a t t e r ca n p ro c e e d . B u t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t t h e L e g a l Te a m w o u l d b e a b l e t o proceed, maybe needing an hour or even two hours to look a t t h o s e a ff i d a v i t s a n d t h e n w e c a n p r o c e e d . S o I t h i n k w h a t w e w i l l d o i s p o st p o n e t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n t o 10 M o n d a y b u t t h e d i r e ct i ve i s su e d i n t e r m s o f R e g u l a t i o n 1 0 . 6 o f t h e R e g u l a t i o n s o f t h e C o m m i s si o n i s s u e d l a st F ri d a y w i l l st a n d i n t h e m e a n t i m e . If on proceed. Monday we are able to proceed, we should S o b ri e f l y t h e n , t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i s p o st p o n e d f o r M o n d a y. T h a t i s n u m b e r o n e . Number two. In the i n t e ri m and unless I d e ci d e o t h e r w i s e b e t w e e n n o w a n d M o n d a y, t h e d i r e ct i v e i s s u e d i n terms of Regulation C o m m i s si o n 20 on 10.6 F ri d a y, of l a st the w e e k, Regulations st a n d and of the Judge M a k h u b e l e m u st a p p e a r i n p e r s o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n a t t e n o ’ cl o c k. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k i t w i l l b e i m p o rt a n t t h a t t h i s b e c o m m u n i c a t e d t o h e r. A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Page 126 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SONI SC: As it please the Chairperson and . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V S O N I S C : . . . w e a p p r e ci a t e b e i n g a c c o m m o d a t e d i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e e vi d e n ce o f M r J u l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, ye s. No. N o , t h a n k yo u . Yo u a r e e x c u se d . A D V S O N I S C : A s i t p l e a s e s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n w e c a n c o n t i n u e w i t h M r Ju l y ’s e vi d e n c e . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a r e w e r e a d y ? ADV HULLEY SC: discussing the T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. question of the defeating We were still the ends of justice, now you had come there, you dealt with that, Mr J u l y, a n d w h a t w e w e r e e x a m i n i n g w a s t o w a r d s t h e t a i l e n d of 20 that, we were examining the question of what you regarded what they had done wrong. If I understood your evidence correctly and please, do correct me if I am wrong, but if I understood your e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t l y, w h a t y o u i n e s s e n c e s a y i s t h a t i f t h e y did not express their honest opinion on the content of the docket. In other words, they did not capture the content of Page 127 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e d o c k e t a c c u r a t e l y. I n o r d e r t o a b s o l v e s o m e b o d y, t h a t would amount to defeating the ends of justice. S o , i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a r g u m e n t c o r r e c t l y, t h e r e i s two elements to it, the one is the failure to capture the content of the docket accurately and the second is an intention to do so in order to absolve somebody from l i a b i l i t y. M R J U LY : Ye s , t h a t i s m y. . . ADV HULLEY SC: 10 And if I understand your argument c o r r e c t l y, w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s t h a t i n t h e p r e s e n t c a s e , in relation to Mr McBride, Sesoko and Khuba, that is precisely what they appear to have done and that is why you recommended that they should be charged. M R J U LY : Ye s , p r i m a f a c i e t h a t i s w h a t w e f o u n d a n d then we found prima facie that they have committed the – defeated the ends of justice. And, of course, when we do s o , C h a i r, t h e N PA w i l l h a v e t o t a k e o v e r f r o m t h e r e a n d t h e r e p o r t w a s t o t h e M i n i s t e r, i t w a s n o t t o t h e N PA . o n c e t h e N PA d e c i d e s t h a t n o , t h i s g u y i s 20 So - there is this p r i m a f a c i e v i e w, t h e n t h e y m u s t d o t h e i r o w n i n v e s t i g a t i o n . That is it, ja. ADV HULLEY SC: No, fair enough. So just to understand c o r r e c t l y, w h a t – i n s o f a r a s t h e p r e s e n t c a s e i s c o n c e r n e d the report that they had compiled, they had obviously come to the conclusion, at least in your mind, as expressed in Page 128 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the second report, which was the report of the 18 March of 2014. That report differed with the report of the 22 January 2014 and it was not the fact that they had a different opinion, it was a fact that they had a different o p i n i o n b e c a u s e , i n y o u r v i e w, t h e y d i s h o n e s t l y r e m o v e d information from what was contained in the first report. M R J U LY : Of course, it was not just a matter of opinion but the opinion is to be taken into account what informed the changing of the opinion, not just the changing but what 10 informed the changing of the opinion. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Ye s . If you were to change …[intervenes]3 CHAIRPERSON: That is the reason for changing is what you are [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] M R J U LY : Ye s , t h e r e a s o n f o r c h a n g i n g . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. T h a t i s p r a c t i c a l l y. . . ADV HULLEY SC: And of course you are not suggesting t h a t o n l y M r K h u b a w a s g u i l t y b e c a u s e h e h e l d o n e v i e w, 20 one in respect of the first opinion but a different view in respect of the second, you are suggesting that any person, including Mr McBride and Mr Sesoko, if they had expressed the opinion that is contained in the second report, that in itself was sufficient to make them liable for defeating the ends of justice. Page 129 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s . W e s a y s o , C h a i r, b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t if we are right that the information is deleted and we want t o k n o w w h o d e l e t e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , K h u b a d o e s n o t k n o w. H e s a y s I d o n o t k n o w, w h a t I d o k n o w i s t h a t I w o r k e d o n my analysis. Yo u a s k S e s o k o , S e s o k o s a i d I h a v e n e v e r seen that kind of a report. Yo u g o t o M c B r i d e , M c B r i d e says I have never seen that report. That there is a common factor which is, all of them, they have looked in the information analysis of the evidence and they come to 10 the conclusion. So if three people were in possession – which, C h a i r, m a y b e i t w i l l b e e a s i e r i f I c a n e x p l a i n w h e t h e r indeed McBride was right to say he has never seen the report. It is not true that he did not see the report. We came to the conclusion that he saw the report. Sesoko, it is not true that he did not see the report. We cam e to that conclusion that he saw it, McB ride, why we came to that conclusion. Yo u w i l l n o t e t h a t o n t h e 3 r d when McBride started, the evidence is that McBride asks 20 Sesoko that he wants the update and in fact when we questioned Mr Khuba, it is very specific, he wanted the report, not the update. And then Khuba emailed the to Sesoko. Sesoko prints the report and gives it to McBride. It is on record that Sesoko printed the report. Page 130 of 255 report But you will see 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 somewhere the version changes again and say no, no, no, I have never seen the first report, but he forgets that, Sesoko, that when Khuba emailed the report, he emailed to Sesoko, Sesoko printed it, it is on the record, when we interviewed him and he gave it to McBride and when Khuba c a m e t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y, b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a m e e t i n g - t h a t was suggested, that there must be a meeting the following d a y, K h u b a s a y s w h e n I m e t M c B r i d e i t w a s a p e r s o n w h o knew 10 what was in the report and we ask a specific question, the report that you gave to McBride, is the same r e p o r t t h a t y o u f i l e d w i t h t h e N PA b e c a u s e y o u f i l e d a h a r d copy? He said yes. U n e q u i v o c a l l y, y e s , i t w a s t h e s a m e r e p o r t b u t i t w a s a s o f t c o p y. R i g h t ? So even the questions that he was asking, you could tell, that is what Khuba now says, that is the person who read the report. So one of the issues, for instance, was the involvement of Crime Intelligence. Yo u w i l l g e t conflicting version as to who raised that issue. Khuba says McBride asked me why did we involve 20 Crime Intelligence? But Khuba says here, he comes here, he says no, no, no, no, when I got there I told McBride, when I involved. was briefing him, that Crime Then McBride got concerned. what he told us. Intelligence was But that is not There is a difference in most issues that Khuba said here and what he said to us in preparation of Page 131 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the report. Depending on finding out whether how much do y o u k n o w, t h e n K h u b a w i l l t e l l y o u w h a t h e t h i n k s y o u m u s t k n o w. S o t h a t i s t h e p r o b l e m t h a t w e a r e f a c e d w i t h . So you have, in our conclusion, three people who were in possession of the report, who do not want to acknowledge the existence of the report, two of them. Then three of them, all of them, they do not want to acknowledge the deletion. why can you not? 10 If that deletion was innocent, Why can you not say yes, we deleted, it is because you cannot delete evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Well, you are right in saying when asked if they had seen the report, that is Mr Sesoko and Mr McBride, if in fact they had seen the report but they deny having seen the report, you have to enquire why are they denying …[intervenes] M R J U LY : They are denying it. CHAIRPERSON: …having seen the report when in fact they have seen the report. Now I am just coming – looking at it from your angle. 20 M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: To say it is legitimate to ask that question. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: If, as a matter of fact, you are convinced that they saw the report… Page 132 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : But they are denying that. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Because the denial could throw light on something. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: To s a y i f t h e – l e a v i n g a s i d e w h e t h e r o r not, the question of whether or not, putting their summary or analysis the way they did in the second report whether it 10 amounts to defeating the ends of justice or anything like that, what would be legitimate as to say if they had seen the report one would expect them to acknowledge that they had seen the report and if they had changed the analysis or summary because of an acceptable reason one would e x p e c t t h a t t h e y w o u l d g i v e t h a t r e a s o n o p e n l y. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So that part, I think it is legitimate to l o o k a t i t t h a t w a y. But, of course, a very important part is the one about whether when they said they had not seen 20 the report, that is Mr Sesoko and Mr McBride, whether that was actually true. M R J U LY : H’m. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: up one issue, T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. N o w j u s t t o c l e a r you have referred Page 133 of 255 interchangeably to 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 deleting information and deleting evidence. To b e f a i r there was no evidence that was delete3d. M R J U LY : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h e r e w a s i n f o r m a t i o n o r r a t h e r, a recordal of what was in the docket that was removed. M R J U LY : Ye s . T h a t i s s e m a n t i c s , C h a i r, b e c a u s e i f I s a y to you – like I said, I was here on the 31 July 2020 and that 31 July 2020 is not recorded in your report because it is 10 an important date for you to come to a particular c o n c l u s i o n t h a t S a n d i l e i n d e e d o n t h a t d a y, t h e n t h e r e i s a deletion of the evidence which was already in the report. Yo u r e m e m b e r t h e e v i d e n c e i s w h a t y o u h a v e b e e n t o l d . It can be verbal, it can be in writing, and when you take that evidence, you put in your report, it does not change its nature, it is just that it is in another form, in the form of a report. So I am not suggesting that they erased what was the psychical statement. No, I am not saying that but that evidence was imported to the report and now it is deleted. 20 That is what I am saying. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I think what Mr Hulley raises is something that also I was looking at when they were giving evidence and I just think it is important particularly because the charge, as I recall, said they altered and I think your report was also based on saying the whole issue Page 134 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 is about the alteration of the report. M R J U LY : Of the report, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now if two people are given the same material, let us say statements in a docket, and they asked separately and not in collaboration with each other to prepare a report based on those statements, they are likely to come up with two different reports. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R J U LY : That might have the same substance. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But the wording obviously would be d i f f e r e n t , y o u k n o w, h o w e a c h o n e i s n o t g o i n g t o b e identical because then once it is identical they must have c o p i e d , o n e m u s t h a v e c o p i e d f r o m t h e o t h e r. Or maybe through some technology it might be done without copying. But you might have this one person whose report you look at and say but this is not an accurate summary of these statements. I have looked at the statements, I have read them, this leaves out some important facts, so I am 20 unhappy about it because of that. And then there is this other one, you have read the statement, you say this is the one that really accurately s u m m a r i s e s w h a t i s i n t h e s t a t e m e n t s . O k a y. Now if the first one, whose report you find not to be s a t i s f a c t o r y, d i d n o t s e e t h e o t h e r r e p o r t , I e x p e c t t h a t a l l Page 135 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 you would say is, he is not good at summarising things, or something like that, you know? anything else, you know? But you might not think of And this one whose report you are happy with, you might say he is good at making sure that his summary contains all the important information. So, therefore, one asks one the question whether the moment we all accept that they did not – this alteration did not entail physically changing anything in the statements, whether we are not dealing with a situation 10 where while contribution Mr and Khuba Mr was McBride’s without Mr contribution to Sesoko’s the first report and with the contribution with whoever may have contributed to the first report, he summarised and analysed the statements in a certain way but once there were three p e o p l e n o w, w o r k i n g o n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t , t h e y a r e b o u n d to have different views and they are bound different am ounts of weight on different aspects. to attach Whether you are not dealing of that kind of situation because now there are three people who are all going to sign this report 20 whereas the other one, only one person is going to sign it even though he was contributions Mr Mosing and somebody else, so that there is that. What do you say? MR J U LY : Yo u k n o w, if – ja, if c i r c u m s t a n c e s , C h a i r, I w i l l a g r e e w i t h y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . Page 136 of 255 under ordinary 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : But here you have a situation first whether there is a denial of even having seen the report. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s , y e s . B u t t h a t r e p o r t l o o k s e x a c t l y, t h e y w e r e t h e same report that was not seen. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . That creates a problem. CHAIRPERSON: So would I be right in saying what really changes or changed or influenced the way you say the 10 matter was that you believed that they – Sesoko and McBride had seen the first report. That is what …[intervenes] M R J U LY : J a , t h a t i s e x a c t l y w h a t , C h a i r, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: you had consulted, T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. interviewed Mr N o w, o f c o u r s e Sesoko, you had interviewed Mr Khuba, you had interviewed Mr McBride, is that correct? M R J U LY : 20 Ye s , I i n t e r v i e w e d a l l . ADV HULLEY SC: informed you that Would it be fair to say that Mr Khuba he had never been instructed to e x o n e r a t e a n y b o d y, h e h a d n e v e r b e e n i n s t r u c t e d b y M r M c B r i d e t o e x o n e r a t e a n y b o d y. W o u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o s a y ? M R J U LY : M r C h a i r, h e s a y s M c B r i d e d i d n o t e x p r e s s l y said I must change the report but he says, in the same Page 137 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 breath, it was due to the influence of McBride, he would not have changed the report. He says that. He says I told Sesoko I said all what I needed to do was just to go and attach the information that I received, there is no need for picking up the docket. That is what he says and we come then to the conclusion that you would think that McBride is going to expressly say that. He does not have to. He does not have to. It is the conduct that speaks for itself. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Of course, there is nothing – there would ordinarily be nothing wrong with Mr McBride influencing Mr Khuba as to certain part of the report. M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s t r u e . CHAIRPERSON: It is – as long as he was not forcing him to do something dishonest or something like that, as long as it was within legitimate bounds. But I guess that what you – your view was that it was not within legitimate bounds. M R J U LY : It was not. CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : Ye s . It was not. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e s a y i n g t h a t h e w a n t e d t o – h e wanted the report to exonerate General Dramat. M R J U LY : Ye s a n d S i b i y a . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. H e e v e n g o e s f u r t h e r, C h a i r, a n d s a y I b e c a m e Page 138 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 h a p p y w h e n m y b o s s w a s h a p p y. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. He says that, it is on record, saying I became happy when my boss was happy because this report was making me sleepless nights, it was to and fro, until Sesoko s a i d t o m e t h e b o s s i s h a p p y, t h e n I b e c a m e h a p p y. CHAIRPERSON: But, of course, does Mr Khuba not somewhere say that he was not aware of the so-called deletions? 10 Does Mr Khuba not – did he not at some stage say to you during the interviews that you had with him, did he not at some stage deny having been aware of some of the changes? M R J U LY : Ye s , h e d i d . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s . The only thing that he touched on was the analysis. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ja. He said having been influenced, Sesoko being a l a w y e r a n d S e s o k o w h o d i d l a w, I m u s t n o w i n f l u e n c e M r 20 Sesoko. But that also is problematic because that very debate with Sesoko, he told us that it took place before McBride came into the picture. But he was never convinced by Sesoko, he was never convinced because he believed that General Dramat went to Zimbabwe on the 5 August 2010 to attend a meeting of the region. Page 139 of 255 Then on 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 the 6th had a side meeting with the Zimbabwean police and the issue of the fugitives was discussed in that meeting. After that, they agreed to meet after three months. Now in three months, if you count three months from A u g u s t t o N o v e m b e r, I m e a n t o N o v e m b e r t h e 5 t h , t h e y meet of 5 August, 6 August, it is exactly three months when t h e y c o m e h e r e o n t h e 4 N o v e m b e r. A n d s o , C h a i r, w h e n y o u c o m e h e r e o n t h e 4 N o v e m b e r, i t i s w h a t h a p p e n s t h e n . N o w, w h e n t h e y w e r e a t B e i t b r i d g e , t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n 10 is critical. If you remove that information where Madilonga says I then called – you then say it does not matter even if he called, but we do not know what he was talking about. That is fine, that is what he merely says, but do not put it as if that call did not happen. CHAIRPERSON: not accepting Well, what is the factual basis for you that in summarising the evidence or summarising the statements or analysing the statements in the way in which they did in the second report reflected their honest opinion because – I may be asking you in a 20 different way what Mr Hulley might have asked earlier on. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Because I take it that you would accept that provided in making the changes they were acting honestly, even if wrongly, if they were acting honestly then there would be no defeating – they would not be said to be Page 140 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 guilty of defeating the ends of justice. So what is the factual basis for you not to accept that these changes they put in, in the second report, were put in honestly even if, in your view, wrongly? MR JULY: Yes. The one, Chair, starts with the retrieval. It starts with the retrieval of the docket itself. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Right, that is where it starts. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR JULY: you have changed. Yes. H’m? Then now you have the report, you deny that seen You this do report, not want but to this report accept that has been you have changed the report, say what was change was the analysis. Nobody owns up in the deletion. Nobody owns up in the deletion party, of the other particular everybody talks about the analysis, when we realise that the evidence was unsustainable. The unsustainable evidence must be left there. Yes. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Would this not have been a situation where if you are convinced that the recommendation that General Dramat should be charged is correct, you need to have this information because then it will link. MR JULY: Yes, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: But the moment you are convinced that that conclusion, that recommendation is wrong, it is not Page 141 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 justified, then that information does not make much sense because now it was there to show that this recommendation is justified. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: But if you have changed the recommendation that information does not make sense. MR JULY: You must deal with the information. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: 10 Ja. Is it not that situation? No, no, the situation, Chair – I hear what you are talking. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: You are talking about an ordinary situation. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja, I am – yes, yes. You are being general. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. Yes, ja. I am saying we took a lot of things into account. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: 20 To come to that conclusion. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes, yes. It was not just a question of deletion. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Into account. Yes. We started from the fact that McBride had no reason to ask for the docket or even for the docket to be collected in the first place. Page 142 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja. The second one is that there is no reason for McBride to sign the docket. Nothing in law. not breaching the law by doing that. Yes, he is But he takes it and comes and say to you it is because the law requires him to sign. That docket, that report was irregularly given to NPA because it let signatures of two people, the head of investigations and him, being the Executive Director. He then justified that by saying in Section 7.4 of the 10 IPID, the Executive Director has got powers to sign, is required to sign the report, which is the reason why that report of Khuba was not a report in accordance to the prescripts of the NPA. So we took all those things into account to say why should we be lied to, because he had no reason, he had no business with this report. And again, this is the person who said he has never seen the report. So I am trying to also demonstrate the inconsistencies in the evidence. CHAIRPERSON: 20 There was – I do not know whether it is Regulation 5, there seems to be reference to a report being approved by the Executive Director but I think I got that from your report. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: seem to be If I am not mistaken. complete. In terms Page 143 of 255 of the And it did not Act and the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Regulations, is such a report not required to be approved by the Executive Director? MR JULY: No. CHAIRPERSON: you understand it? What is the reference to approval, as What does it refer to, that I am talking about. MR JULY: Okay. Where we need to start then, Chair, we need to start what was the nature of this investigation because all of them are categorised in terms of Section 28. 10 It says – even Khuba in his report does say it is 28F and H, right? The H part is the part which says it was referred, but the question is, who referred it? Khuba tells us in his report that it was referred by the Secretariat to do what, to investigate be Qoboshiyane made a report in June 2012 where the investigation was done on this issue. But he said this is bigger than us, we do not have investigative capacity. So we proposed two things. One, we propose that Judge Pillay, who at one stage sat as a – I do not to do what at the DPCI – must sit 20 and look at the matter and come to a conclusion on this matter. Alternatively, let us take this matter to IPID to investigate criminal – to do criminal investigation because what has been told to parliament, it is lies. that. Page 144 of 255 He concludes 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Then this report is then take on the basis of Qoboshiyane, which is the Secretariat, is given to IPID. That is 28H. receive a But what does the 28H say? report that has been referred When you by either the Secretariat, you then use Regulation 7, right? When you go to Regulation 7, Regulation 7 says for you to be able to deal with this investigation you must first determine the nature of the offence committed, offences contained in Regulation 4 and 5. 10 In fact, those regulations in 4 and 5 are the same offences that are in Section 28A to 28G. Then 28 of the Act, 28A and B, deals with a murder, the killing of people as a result of the action by the Police, right? So both A and B cover the murder. So what then happened is that when you look at 4, within 4 you find two scenarios. When immediately, the where commission IPID can go of murder and do happens the same inspection. That is 4. CHAIRPERSON: But remember, just look at approval, when – what is your understanding of whether approval is 20 required at any stage? MR JULY: No, it is not required, nowhere. CHAIRPERSON: talking about, Ja, that reference to approval that I am you know what I am talking about Regulation 5? MR JULY: Regulation 5? I do not know …[intervenes] Page 145 of 255 in 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Regulation 5, I thought I got it from the Werksmans’ report but it was not quoted …[intervenes] MR JULY: I know we do make reference to Section 5. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well this – because I have got the report in front of me, if I am right in saying I must have seen it – yes, it is at page 127 of the bundle. You say, that is paragraph 14 of the report itself, Regulation 5(i) to the Act states: “After 10 collecting all evidence, statements and technical or expert reports, if applicable, submit a report on the investigation of the offence to the Executive Director or the relevant provincial head, as the case may be, containing recommendations regarding further action which may include disciplinary measures to be taken against a member of the South African Police Service or the Municipal Police Service for criminal prosecution of such member.” It says – so maybe there is no approval as such here, but 20 it says: “Submit the report on the investigation offence to the Executive Director.” MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja. Yes. Page 146 of 255 of the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: No. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Or, if not, why would it not apply? No, it does not apply to this offence. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Would that apply to this report? Ja, why not? It does not apply, Chair, because Regulation 5 deals with issues of assault. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: 10 Oh, okay. Yes, Regulation is strictly …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: But was there not assault in this rendition thing? MR JULY: There was an assault, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. But the issues of assault – when they dealt with it, it was - the emphasis was on the murder part. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ja. MR JULY: So because you have two, you have the assault, you have number one. And murder. Of course, when McBride was murder asked comes here by Advocate Paul Pretorius, you can look at the record, it starts from the investigation that was done, was about murder because that was the issue. It was even the issue that was raised by parliament that why were those people killed? And the specific question was asked, was Dramat of Sibiya involved in this rendition? Page 147 of 255 So the real section, 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 which was used, on the fact that it was murder. CHAIRPERSON: Okay. MR JULY: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hulley? ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you, Mr Chair. Just to get back to what I was asking you about previously and what you testified on, you were testifying that Mr McBride had put pressure on or had influenced Mr Khuba to change the report. 10 I was just trying to listen and you were looking in the direction of the Chairperson but I did not catch what was the influence – I know said that at one stage he was very happy. MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: But what was the influence by Mr McBride? MR JULY: No, Khuba says I took the docket, then after taking the docket I went straight to McBride, right? And then from McBride I want to the office. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 MR JULY: Yes. With Sesoko. Then he says we opened the report, then the three of them worked on the report, right? So he then says – he says that I was influenced that the report was influenced – I asked the question would this report have changed if Mr McBride was not – did not require you to relook at the report? Page 148 of 255 Khuba’s statement is 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 no, it would not have changed. And I asked a question, this information that you say was outstanding, these warning statements that you are talking about, what impact did they have in the report? He says none. ADV HULLEY SC: cross-purposes. No, but I think we might be talking at Tell me, what is it that Mr McBride did, did he put an iron on his hand? MR JULY: No. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 MR JULY: No. ADV HULLEY SC: MR Did he threaten you with a gun? JULY: What was that act that he did? This is what Khuba says, that he was influenced by McBride. What would …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: You never got to know he influenced him, ja. MR JULY: We did not know, we did not. You remember, Chair, what we ask, we look at the totality of this. Why Khuba started saying he wants now to go and comment at the docket. 20 That he comes back with the docket, right? And then they look at the evidence, the same evidence that he looked at, when he submitted that, the same arguments that were raised by Sesoko because this issue of the analysis was there even before docket. Suddenly that evidence, that analysis, becomes critical. Page 149 of 255 the existence of the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 And can I say this, Chair – and I am saying this in my affidavit, we had a number, if not about three off-record talks with Khuba, and one of the things – and he even mentioned it himself in the transcript. He remember what I said to you off the record? says you If you were to ask me, is this person suitable for this position, I reserve my comments for that. But the other things that he said off the record was that he was scared of McBride and he was scared of 10 McBride and he – he said many things, Chair, some of them I do not even remember, but he does – he did say that he was scared of McBride. Then he talks about the political history, his history and all of that and says afraid of him. So when he says do not take it lightly when a person says – when he says he is happy, I was happy. So the influence sometimes, you do not have to tell a person. A persona formulate a view, whether that, him being scared of McBride was justified, we do not know, but he said that. 20 But, of course, he did not say those things on record. And we do say that in our affidavit. ADV HULLEY SC: Oh, you have said that in your affidavit. MR JULY: ADV Yes. HULLEY SC: What I want Page 150 of 255 to understand, so 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 according to him, he was afraid of McBride. MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: according to him This is off the record discussion, he was afraid of McBride. As I understand correctly reading your affidavit, he was afraid of him because of his struggle credentials. MR JULY: 10 Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: Now he did not say that he was afraid physically physical for his wellbeing, if I understand correctly. MR JULY: No, no, no, you cannot just be afraid of a person of – you will be afraid of Nelson Mandela then. ADV HULLEY SC: MR JULY: Pardon me? I am saying struggle credentials only, that is not what was communicated to us, Chair, it was a person who is scared. Scared, scared of this person. We do not know what he said to him, we did not bother because that is not what we were there for but we could take that evidence what he said off the record because what he said 20 off the record. Chair, I would request yourself time, you read how Khuba, how his evidence – I mean, when we interviewed, his narration keeps on changing. You will see that at some point he was to tell the truth, at some point he remembers that my boss told me the following, right? Page 151 of 255 Because there 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 is no doubt, you can tell that they must have met somewhere and the issue of the docket or the report, McBride not having seen, was discussed. You know, we are dealing with 2015, we are dealing with this thing in 2015 when the changes have already occurred. The changes have already occurred in 2014, now they must come and explain why the changes. The first thing would be, from McBride’s side, I have never seen the report. 10 As a result, during the interview, we did not even discuss the second report – the first report with McBride. So Khuba’s being scared of McBride, we spoke to Khuba, we had the benefit of looking at Khuba and we believed him. We believed him, that he was scared of him. ADV HULLEY SC: Now just to round off that particular theme, you spoke to Mr Sesoko as well. MR JULY: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: And Mr Sesoko, he said that Mr McBride had not instructed them or had not given them any 20 indication that they are to amend the report in any way. MR JULY: No. ADV HULLEY SC: MR JULY: Would that be fair? No, no, no, you see, Sesoko – I hope you have gone through Sesoko’s …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: You have lowered your voice. Page 152 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 MR JULY: Oh, sorry. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: And you are away from the mic. I hope you have gone Sesoko’s transcript. Sesoko was a very difficult person to – of all the people that we interview. Difficult, he was – even where he agrees with you, the difficulty that we also we had, you will see where Sesoko is caught up. He will use “H’m” so you do not know whether he is agreeing or he is acknowledging what you are saying and I ended up even saying you are 10 not going to waste our time, to Sesoko, so we need to proceed. So anybody who thinks that McBride would have told them that let us change the report, that is not what is going to happen, let us change the report because I want to achieve a particular goal. It is the conduct, you look at the conduct and what has happened and we came to the conclusion. Yes. CHAIRPERSON: But, of course, I go back to what we discussed earlier and I raised it with the Minister as well, 20 all of these position, three were IPID people persons, with quite as I some investigation, is that not so? MR JULY: I am not sure about that, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Ja. I am not sure about that. Page 153 of 255 understand experience the in 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Well, that is my understanding, not that I know anything. Yes. You are not sure about that? MR JULY: I am not sure about that. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Okay. I am not sure about this experience of an investigation. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: But whether Khuba was an investigator, yes. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR JULY: Ja. There was not investigation at ICD. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. Remember the history of IPID is ICD. CHAIRPERSON: MR JULY: Yes. Okay. Because ICD was housed within the police, so …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o w h a t I a m l o o k i n g a t i s c e r t a i n l y Khuba gave in his statements talked about the history of the two organisations. M R J U LY : 20 Ye s , y e s , CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he talked about that and then of course he was in charge of Limpopo, is that right under IPID. M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: He was in charge of Limpopo, my understanding is that, being in charge of Limpopo would Page 154 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 mean that he was in charge of, also Provincial investigations with Limpopo falling under IPID would that not be correct? M R J U LY : N o , C h a i r, t h a t i s a n o t h e r i s s u e a b o u t – I ’ m saying Chair the issue of Khuba and the position that he was holding as a Provincial Head. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Before IPID. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . M R J U LY : No, no I’m talking about…[intervenes]. Of course, he had some experience but I d i s p u t e t h i s t h i n g b e c a u s e I h e a r d y o u C h a i r, t h a t s a m e comment, when Nhleko – Mr Nhleko was here. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . Yo u m a d e t h a t c o m m e n t a n d s a i d , t h o s e g u y s are very experienced…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , no I take it e x p e r i e n c e d b u t y o u h a v e t o s a y, l o o k , o n you don’t think that they all have that that they are w h a t y o u k n o w, experience or w h a t e v e r. 20 MR J U LY : No, they don’t, Khuba might have…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: What’s your understanding about their investigative experience? M R J U LY : Khuba…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Let’s talk one by one ja. Page 155 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : K h u b a w a s a n i n v e s t i g a t o r. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : never Ja. Sesoko was not an investigator and he was head of investigations, if you look, Chair…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Well there’s a question of acting Head or what? M R J U LY : Chair there are four units. CHAIRPERSON: 10 M R J U LY : Ja. T h a t f a l l – a t t h e h e a d o f f i c e , f o u r, o n e o f t h e m i s t h e o f f i c e o f t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, t h e o t h e r o n e i s Corporate Services Unit, the third one is Investigations and Information Management Unit, the last one is the Legal Services Unit. Sesoko was made – was appointed to act as a Head of Investigations and Information Unit. unit, all what it does is administrative. That Yo u c o m e u p w i t h all things that have to do with investigation and if the investigation is completed you take the report which comes from the Provinces, you summarise it for the Executive 20 D i r e c t o r f o r t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r t o g o t o t h e M i n i s t e r. He was never the Head, if you look at the S OP’s the Head of Investigations reside at the Provinces…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I thought there was a Head of – as I understood it, National Investigations. M R J U LY : No, no that’s a unit. Page 156 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Which is purely administrative. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That’s a unit? Ye s , b u t t h e r e i s a u n i t c a l l e d t h a t ? There is a unit call Investigations because your SOP’s will also come from that unit. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : O k a y. Right and how do we conduct investigations and all those things but the report, the person who has the final say on the report, there are two people in terms of the 10 Act, now I’m talking the Act, it’s Provincial Head or the Director Investigations those are the only two. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, now who was the Director Investigations at the time when this second report was done, as you understood, then the position if you do? M R J U LY : Ye s , t h e I n v e s t i g a t i n g D i r e c t o r – t h e D i r e c t o r Investigation was Khuba. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : He was also a Provincial Head. CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : Ye s . He was wearing two hats. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : O k a y. O k a y. T h i s i s w h a t h a p p e n e d , C h a i r, t h e c o m p l a i n t com es to the head office, in terms of Section – I think it’s Section 2 – ja I think Section 2 or 5, I think it’s 2, which says, once you receive at the head office, you receive this Page 157 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 complaint, then you must determine which Province, the relevant Province. Khuba is The reason why it was given to Mr because Mr Khuba, the issue was about Beitbridge because the rendition, the handing over of the Zimbabweans happened in Limpopo, that is the reason but there is a question there of appointment and who appoints t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r. The investigator is appointed by the E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, i n t h i s c a s e , K h u b a w o u l d h a v e b e e n appointed by Mr Beekman who was there in 2012 right but 10 that’s the first appointment, appointing him as an i n v e s t i g a t o r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, b u t g o i n g b a c k t o t h e i s s u e I raised. So, what you are saying is, you are saying Mr Sesoko may have been Executive – may have been Director Investigations but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he had investigative experience? M R J U LY : Ye s , l e t m e t e l l y o u w h y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : 20 Or a lot of it. Ye s , h o w S e s o k o b e c o m e s , a s I u n d e r s t a n d , K o e k i M b e k i w o u l d c o m e a n d t e s t i f y, I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y h e has not been here yet because all this things could have been sorted out. h o w, I u n d e r s t a n d i s t h a t , t h e p o s i t i o n o f Provincial Head, under ICD when they did whatever they did in terms of evaluations and the changing of the Act, that position was higher than the position that Khuba and Page 158 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Sesoko used to occupy and then because of the Act they had to take the positions that are immediately below the p r o v i n c i a l h e a d s b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t q u a l i f y, I ’ m t o l d , f o r the position of Provincial Heads. They then got appointed, not even appointed they were confirmed because they were already in the system as Director Investigations right. So, the position of Sesoko, without even having investigated anything was then that of Director Investigations but appointed to act in the position of – in the unit which is 10 called Investigations and Inform ation Unit but he’s not c a l l e d a H e a d h e ’ s c a l l e d P r o g r a m m e M a n a g e r. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : he’s not O k a y. I think we need to get that terminology clear a Head, Investigations there’s and no such Information things Unit, as you’ve Head of got a P r o g r a m m e M a n a g e r. CHAIRPERSON: But in their evidence didn’t they refer to Head of National Investigations. M R J U LY : 20 Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : They called him a Head. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : They did. Ye s . They said he was a Head. CHAIRPERSON: When people who come from o r g a n i s a t i o n , u s e t h a t t e r m i n o l o g y, y o u u n d e r s t a n d , j a . Page 159 of 255 that 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : No, they did, they did. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you let’s proceed. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Chair…[intervenes]. We are at ten past three on m y watch. ADV HULLEY SC: We’re making very slow progress Mr C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY Huh? SC: I s a y, we’re making very slow progress. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well I can tell you that in term s of what I am interested in, we’ve made a lot of progress. ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s , b u t t h e – i n t e r m s o f t h e t w o a n d a half hours that I’d estimated we way beyond that. CHAIRPERSON: Well we may be, we certainly are way beyond that but what Mr July has dealt with, since this morning, covers quite a substantial part of the matters that I have identified as matters that I’m really interested in but there may be others that you have picked up which I might not have picked up. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: What – I’ve dealt with Mr Khuba, I’ve d e a l t w i t h M r S e s o k o , a s I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, M r K h u b a felt that he was pressurised into changing the report, he hasn’t identified specifically but you know that he was approached, so that deals with Mr Khuba, insofar as Mr Sesoko is concerned, he too indicated that he had not Page 160 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 been pressurised or that there was no instruction from Mr McBride to change the report but you’re not satisfied you d i s m i s s w h a t S e s o k o s a y s , s o r r y. MR J U LY : I think you think that I made that recommendation because they were influenced by McBride, no. I’m not saying Sesoko should have been influenced by McBride I’m saying they were all participants, whether influenced or not at the end of the day you take a decision to be party to that. So, Sesoko does not need to be 10 influence, nor Khuba does have to be influenced. ADV HULLEY SC: Ja but the only point I’m making is that between the two of them, and I’ve dealt with two people. I’ve dealt with Mr Khuba, we’ve parked him, I’m dealing now with Mr Sesoko, I understand that in your interview with him, he had indicated that he had not been pressurised there had been no pressure brought to bear upon him to change the report in any way by Mr McBride. M R J U LY : Yo u r e m e m b e r S e s o k o d e n i e d e v e n h a v i n g s e e n t h e r e p o r t s o h e c a n ’ t g o – h e c a n ’ t e v e n s a y, I w a s 20 not influenced by McBride to change the report, because he denies the existence of the report, he said he has never seen it. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Okay let’s do it slightly different . Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: W o u l d i t b e f a i r t o s a y, f r o m y o u r Page 161 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 interview with Mr Sesoko that he denied that Mr McBride had brought pressure to bear upon him or upon Mr Khuba t o e x o n e r a t e a n y b o d y, w o u l d t h a t b e f a i r ? M R J U LY : No, no, no I don’t remember anything which has to do with influence because we could not ask such a question because Sesoko – although at first he said he received a report from Khuba and made a copy and gave it to McBride, he later denied the existence of the report and from there he was consistent even the papers that he filed 10 in Court, he denied but he contradict himself because he also accept that on the 23rd of January 2014 a report to prepare it for the secretariat. he was given So, I don’t recall anywhere where Sesoko will have to deny having been influenced by McBride because he didn’t know…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: that because of Not to change the report, I’ve changed your statement to exonerate a n y b o d y, that’s my question. M R J U LY : 20 No even that one. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : O k a y. Just put the full question. Even that one. ADV HULLEY SC: So the proposition – the question at least is, was it discussed with Mr Sesoko whether Mr McBride had put pressure on, either him or Mr Khuba to Page 162 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 exonerate anybody for that – for him to – or to answer that question does it require him to acknowledge that the preexistence of another report, it simply deals with whether he’s required to exonerate somebody in this report? M R J U LY : No, you see, on what basis would w have asked that question if he says he doesn’t know anything about the first report. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y, and I am touching on something that I’ve dealt with before, 10 the essence of your complaint and why it amounts to – why the conduct might amount to defeating the ends of justice, relates to the importance of this report and the fact that it’s so important that it has to be taken seriously in terms of the IPID Act, in terms of the regulations and in terms of the standard operating procedures. M R J U LY : Not only that, it’s because that report is in terms of the act. Section 28, that’s the core of IPID the core mandate of IPID is to produce the reports. The do the i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h e y d o n ’ t j u s t i n v e s t i g a t e a n d s a y, o k a y w e 20 have investigated, they investigate and then they must m a k e r e p o r t s a n d t h o s e r e p o r t s w i l l s a y, p r o s e c u t e a n d i f you say a person must not be prosecuted you are defeating the ends of justice if I were to find that you did something to influence that decision. CHAIRPERSON: J u s t r e m e m b e r, M r H u l l e y w h a t I s a i d Page 163 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 earlier on, that the Commission is not to assess the correctness or otherwise…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: I n d e e d , M r C h a i r, a n d I ’ m m i n d f u l o f that. CHAIRPERSON: … of these conclusions, actually if you like you can ask questions that are based on assuming that his report – his conclusions were wrong and …[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: 10 We’re not entirely concerned with that. So if you want to approach – you can approach it that way but you know the Commission is not about whether his conclusions are wrong but it’s looking to see whether there is any evidence suggesting that there was some other agenda about the investigation and the report and whether they improperly enabled the – maybe for lack of a better word, harassment of persons who stood – who were against corruption and who wanted to do the right thing. ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o u l d I – o n t h a t c o m m e n t C h a i r, I k n o w i t ’ s not a question, rather a comment. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , y e s . And you’re making a comment, that whether our report would have been used for – or we assisted in our report to fulfil the ulterior motives of other people. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 164 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : then C h a i r, i f o u r r e p o r t , w h i c h i s b a s e d o n f a c t s i s used by somebody who has an ulterior motive…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : That has nothing to do with us. CHAIRPERSON: M R J U LY : Ye s , j a . That has nothing to do with us. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: 10 There’s nothing you can do about that. Ja, ja. Of course, the argument or the answer that you’ve given in relation to the importance of the report, it certain is, of course it is a very important argum ent that is raised in your affidavit but I must confess I’ve searched through your report to look for that argument and I don’t see it in the report. That it was because of the importance as a – from a legal perspective. Now I might be wrong but if you’d like to refer to – well deal with that issue. M R J U LY : The fact that I don’t mention it, it doesn’t mean that we didn’t consider it. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: M R J U LY : Sure. We may not have mentioned Section 28 but we knew what was the common link and existence of IPID. ADV HULLEY SC: Do you agree with me, though, that it’s not in the report itself? M R J U LY : But it doesn’t change then even if you were to Page 165 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 m e n t i o n i t n o w, i t ’ s n o t g o i n g t o c h a n g e . ADV HULLEY SC: I n f a c t , w h a t y o u s a y, i f y o u ’ l l l o o k a t …[intervenes]. ADV TEMBEKA NGCUKAITOBE: Ja I just want to ask what the imputation is that is not contained in the report, I just want to make sure I understand? CHAIRPERSON: because I’m Hmm, just repeat the question Mr Hulley also – I’m not sure if I understood the question. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: The argument, as I understand it, and it’s an argument that is dealt with in the affidavit. I understand what Mr July is saying, is that the, defeating the ends of justice emanates from the fact that the IPID officials – official or officials have amended a report in circumstances where it doesn’t express their honest belief and what he said is, that is – constitutes defeating the ends of justice because that report is so important and it’s i m p o r t a n t a s a m a t t e r o f l a w. It’s important because of the provisions of Section 28 of the IPID Act, it’s important 20 because of the regulations and it’s important because of the standard operating procedure. legal factors important. which demonstrate Those factors are all why that report is so The proposition that I’m putting is, that when I go through the Werksmans report I don’t see that argument being raised here in fact there’s a different reason being Page 166 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 given as to why it constitutes defeating the ends of justice, so that’s the proposition. CHAIRPERSON: raise, maybe Now that may be an important issue to with regard to whether the conclusions, recommendation they reached were correct or justified isn’t it but the question is whether it takes us to the kind of issues we are looking at. ADV HULLEY SC: Well I want to get onto the reasons that are given over here I just wanted to confirm that I 10 understand correctly that it’s not in the report because I don’t want to be unfair to the witness. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Mr July is it in the report irrespective of whether it should have been or shouldn’t have been? M R J U LY : No, Chair we would not have said, because of the importance of Section 28, no we would not have said that. CHAIRPERSON: 20 M R J U LY : So, it is not? Ye s , w e w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d t h a t . We would have said, of course that there is an illegal rendition, the question is, who is responsible for that illegal rendition which is an unlawful act. whether it’s because of So, if you protect those people, 28 or whatever but you are defeating the ends of justice, ends of justice meaning that Page 167 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 people who commit unlawful act must be arrested it has nothing to do with Section 28. CHAIRPERSON: Well you said som ething much earlier about – you said something that I believed to be that you were saying your investigation would – was looking at whether prime facie people – somebody might be guilty of criminal offence or misconduct. M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Which suggests to me that if what you are saying is reflected in your report and I don’t know if it is but if it is, it would suggest to me that you were not s a y i n g , c o n c l u s i v e l y, t h e y a r e g u i l t y t h a t w o u l d b e l e f t t o another process. Yo u a r e s a y i n g o n t h e b a s i s o f w h a t y o u have found during the investigation there seemed to be a c a s e t o a n s w e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R J U LY : That’s exactly…[intervenes]. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t g o i n g b e y o n d t h a t . MR J U LY : And in addition to that C h a i r, this is a recommendation to the Minister of Police there should be 20 n o c o n f u s i o n h e r e , i t ’ s t h e M i n i s t e r o f P o l i c e , n o t N PA . W h a t N PA d o e s w i t h t h e r e p o r t , t h e y m u s t d o t h e i r o w n investigation and decide whether they want to prosecute or not. CHAIRPERSON: saying, whatever S o , a m I r i g h t t o s a y, y o u a r e , t h e r e f o r e we make of your Page 168 of 255 report and your 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 investigation we mustn’t judge it and we mustn’t judge you on a wrong basis and the wrong basis being as if you were required to establish conclusively whether somebody was g u i l t y o r n o t g u i l t y. Yo u s a y w e m u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u were required to form a prime facie view whether there seemed to be a c a s e f o r s o m e b o d y t o a n s w e r, e i t h e r criminally or in term s of disciplinary matters, that’s what you are saying? M R J U LY : 10 whether And in both instances Chair it was the case, misconduct, people must go to disciplinary hearing, nobody was dismissed based on the report no. N o b o d y c a n b e c h a r g e d o n t h e r e p o r t a n d s a y, h e r e ’ s t h e evidence it’s this report. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : Yo u c a n ’ t d o t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: clarifying with Ye s , you is but that, you in – the effect, point you’re that I’m reminding everybody that you were not the forum that would make findings. 20 M R J U LY : Decisions. CHAIRPERSON: The decision, you were seeking – you were looking at everything on a prime facie basis. M R J U LY : Prime facie basis yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , w h i c h c o u l d m e a n , o n c e t h e r e w a s proper or evidence evidence led, Page 169 of 255 the situation could 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 change. M R J U LY : I t c o u l d c h a n g e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p e o p l e c o u l d b e f o u n d n o t g u i l t y. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: Now you, in fact, had access to several prosecutors, amongst which were Advocate George Baloyi, A d v o c a t e M z i n y a t h i i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y. M R J U LY : 10 Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: Advocate Chauke, Advocate Mosing, Advocate Jiba…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y M r H u l l e y, l e t ’ s – I j u s t w a n t u s to have an idea of how far we might be going. Is it fine if I give you 15 minutes to try and wrap up? ADV HULLEY SC: A minimum of 30 minutes if I can just some propositions to the witness. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, t r y 1 5 i f n o t I ’ l l g i v e y o u a l i t t l e bit…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 Thank you. Would it be fair to say that, of those Advocates, those Prosecutors who expressed an opinion on this issue, each of them made it clear that they have no regard at all to the reports insofar as they assess whether a crime has been committed or not? M R J U LY : k n o w, Not even a single one of them. All what I I spoke to Baloyi and Baloyi makes a comment and Page 170 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s a y, w h a t I d i d , w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h e d o c k e t w h e n i t w a s sent to me, I started by just looking at the evidence and from the evidence I looked at the report and then, I was then, while looking at the report, I was then provided with another report because it would seem the second report came after and then he looked at the two reports but he says, I’ve already formulated a view but to say there was not a single Prosecutor who said to me, we don’t even look at the reports. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: No, not misunderstanding, my question is, would it be correct to say that not a single Prosecutor indicated that they look at the report to determine whether a crime has been committed? M R J U LY : No, I didn’t ask, I didn’t ask that question. ADV HULLEY SC: No, I think maybe we’re speaking at cross-purposes I’m not asking you whether you had asked, what I’m asking you is a slightly different question. I’m asking you whether anyone had indicated to you that they considered the report in order to arrive at their conclusion 20 that a crime had been committed and I’m referring now – w h e n I r e f e r t o t h e r e p o r t , I r e f e r, o f c o u r s e t o t h e I P I D report. M R J U LY : Yo u m u s t r e m e m b e r C h a i r, w e w e r e a s k i n g – different procedures does different questions for instance when we went to Chauke – we’re starting with Mosing, Page 171 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Mosing is because he was involved in the investigation so he would tell us everything about the investigation, that is one. So, when we go to Chauke, it’s because there is a memo by Mosing to Chauke right, when we spoke – we spoke about the memo to Chauke, when we asked Chauke, now that you’ve received the docket, what happened with the docket. He says, I looked at the docket but I must be honest, I didn’t even read it, I hand it over to Mr van Zyl and Mr van Zyl – we spoke to Mr van Zyl over the phone, 10 Mr van Zyl explained to us that, even before I look at the docket these two guys came and say they want the docket and they will bring it back, I then, gave them the docket. So those are the kinds of question in those procedures does. Nomgcobo Jiba, all what we asked was to confirm, did you receive the memo from Mosing, she confirmed the meeting with Nomgcobo did not even take five minutes, not even an hour with all these procedures that we are talking about except of course Mosing. So, we then went to Pretoria to meet with Mzinyathi and Baloyi. In that meeting 20 the issue of looking and not looking, only in the meeting where the issue of looking at the report was said but there’s a context in that, he was saying, I did not look at the report first I first looked at the evidence, that’s what he said. ADV HULLEY SC: Can I ask you to turn with me to Bundle Page 172 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 LEA3, Chair this is part of the – this is attached to the a f f i d a v i t o f M r J u l y, i f y o u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o p a g e 1 0 5 2 . Now this is an interview or this is a transcript of an interview between yourself and Mr George Baloyi and Mr Sibongile Mzinyathi and there are a number of people that are present from Werksm ans including you, including Ms Kerry Biddell, Mr Zandile Thom and Mr Kwazi Buthelezi, is that correct? M R J U LY : Yi p . 10 ADV HULLEY SC: Now if you’ll turn with me to page 1074, I’d like you read from line 15 of that particular page. M R J U LY : T h e o n e t h a t s t a r t s w i t h , I m u s t s a y ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s . M R J U LY : “ I m u s t s a y f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g , w h e n I r e c e i v e d the docket as the DPP mentioned it had this email report – no it has the email report, the second report but I never had a look at the report and I mentioned to the DPP that I might be taking a r a d i c a l v i e w, t h e r e i s s o m u c h m a d e a b o u t t h e f i r s t 20 and the second report but I did not look at the reports, that’s docket, I’m not evidence. When looking for I read the admissible evidence…[intervenes]”. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, s o r r y l e t m e j u s t c h a n g e t h a t , h e says, “when I read the docket, I’m looking for admissible Page 173 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 evidence, these reports are not evidence”, he says. M R J U LY : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: So, he’s talking about, generally he says, when I read reports I do not look at – sorry when I read dockets, I do not look at reports, he goes on to say that the report itself is not evidence. N o w, w h a t y o u r e f e r to as the semantic argument is actually not a semantic argument because the report itself is not evidence…[intervenes]. 10 M R J U LY : I don’t dispute that, I’ve never said a report is evidence all that I’ve said is that the report is produced in terms of Section 28 and it cannot be ignored. ADV HULLEY SC: to page 170 And the – so if you would turn with me Bundle LEA1, this is where the forget your Werksm ans…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m s o r r y, please don’t q u e s t i o n M r H u l l e y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Don’t forget your question, I’m just p i c k i n g u p o n t h i s , d o n ’ t f o r g e t w h a t y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r, a l s o , M r J u l y, d o n ’ t f o r g e t w h a t y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Because I’m interrupting you M R J U LY : O k a y C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e t h e r e p o r t i s t h e r e b u t t h e – M r Page 174 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 B a l o y i m u s t b e r i g h t t h a t y o u c a n ’ t s a y a s a p r o s e c u t o r, I’ve made my decision on the basis of this report for – so for purposes of Court proceedings it doesn’t anything, the report what matters is the evidence. mean The report may be convenient to the prosecutors in that before, maybe, you go to the statement it gives you an idea of what to except in the statements but in the end you will go to the statements and your decision will be based on that, I think we are together on that. 10 M R J U LY : N o , t h e r e w e a r e t o g e t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : But this specific docket and report, it has got a h i s t o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : W h e n y o u r e c e i v e t h i s d o c u m e n t , y o u a r e a s k e d by the NDPP to look from the document which a history of it, it has gone to Gauteng, it comes back – it goes back to IPID, when it goes back to IPID it doesn’t go back to Gauteng it goes back to the National office and then the 20 National office takes it to where it does not belong, in the first place, but is asking for recommendations. So, that is t h e h i s t o r y, s o o r d i n a r i l y I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w h e o p e r a t e s b u t h e s a y s t h i s o n e h e l o o k e d – b e c a u s e h e k n o w s t h e h i s t o r y, he looked at it there’s a specific reason why it’s given to them and there’s a reason why they don’t make a decision Page 175 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 they make recommendation. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J U LY : Ye s , b u t i n p r i n c i p l e I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R J U LY : I n g e n e r a l , w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . CHAIRPERSON: And maybe Mr Hulley was going to that point as well. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 N a m e l y, i f o n e a c c e p t s t h a t i t ’ s t h a t t h e prosecutor will base his decision or her decision on the statements then it seems to me that the idea of the IPID investigator defeating the ends of justice by how he or she summarises her report or analyses, looses more force. M R J U LY : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. In fact, as I was referring you to sir at page 170 of Bundle LEA1 this, Mr Chair is…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I’m sorry I think Mr July is looking for something. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s , I t h i n k h e ’ s t r y i n g t o f i n d L E A 1 , i t ’ s the same bundle as Mr…[intervenes]. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y m u s t h e l p M r J u l y. M R J U LY : O h , I ’ v e g o t i t , I f o u n d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u f o u n d i t ? Page 176 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : I f o u n d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. If you would turn with me, sir to page 170 of that Bundle. CHAIRPERSON: 1-7-0? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t M r C h a i r, t h i s i s E x h i b i t Y8(A) and it’s your Werksmans report. Now paragraph 5.1.7 – sorry have you got it sir? M R J U LY : Yi p . 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u s a y, “Each of the co-signatories to the second report deny effecting the deletions, we are of the view that deletion of material evidence which is likely to a f f e c t t h e d e c i s i o n o f t h e N PA i n d e t e r m i n i n g o r n o t certain individuals should be prosecuted is a criminal offence and specifically defeating the ends of justice or obstructing the administrating of justice”. Now you’ve been told by Mr Baloyi that this is not 20 evidence, we, generally speaking I don’t look at the report in order to decide whether a crime has been committed, I look at the report afterwards. In fact, what you convey in 5.7 is exactly the opposite of what Mr Baloyi has told you. M R J U LY : C a n I e x p l a i n t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Hmm hmm. Page 177 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : The same reason why that report had to be collected otherwise if those report had no influence nobody could have just left that report there because they are going to read the evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Well it might not be – it might be a question of how we put it. I think we are all agreed that – we are agreed about certain things, one, is that it would not be proper for a prosecutor to base his or her decision, simply on a report, that’s point one. 10 Point two there would be nothing wrong if a prosecutor based his or her decision on the statements without reading the report, there’d be n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h a t e i t h e r. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Three, but a prosecutor may – we would b e a g r e e d a l s o a b o u t t h i s , m a y, i n a d d i t i o n t o s t u d y i n g t h e s t a t e m e n t s a l s o s t u d y t h e r e p o r t o k a y. What I’m not sure about, and this is where you might come in, is whether one c a n g o – o k a y l e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y. I’m not sure what else one could put in this equation, the context of this 20 r e m a r k I ’ m m a k i n g i s y o u r s t a t e m e n t e a r l i e r, t h a t t h e N PA can’t – I think as I understood you, you must tell me if I’m wrong, can’t just ignore the report. Now – but of course if w e s a y, a s I t h i n k w e h a v e a l l a g r e e d , a p r o s e c u t o r w h o makes his or her decision on the basis of the statements without reading the report would not be doing anything Page 178 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 wrong. If we accept that, that necessarily means he or she can ignore the report. M R J U LY : N o . CHAIRPERSON: say it’s – So, I’m saying I’m not sure that one can there’s nothing wrong if he looks at the s t a t e m e n t s o n l y a n d s t i l l b e a b l e t o s a y, b u t h e m u s t l o o k at the report the two are in conflict. M R J U LY : But Chair – yes, they sound mutually exclusive but they’re not. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M R J U LY : They’re not mutually exclusive, you’re not looking at the report, as I understand, is not ignoring it at all. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry? M R J U LY : By not looking at the report I don’t mean that you just don’t even look at all. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR J U LY : Yo u may look at it for the purposes of confirming whether your view is correct and in the same 20 b r e a t h , t h a t r e p o r t , w h a t h e h a s j u s t r e a d , M r H u l l e y, t h e evidence, the report itself it’s not evidence but what is contained in the report might be material evidence, what you are saying. For instance, I put a statement which is said by Matalongwe, that report is not material evidence but what I’m saying about Matalongwe is material. Page 179 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Well let’s look at what the report is supposed to contain. M R J U LY : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: To t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e p o r t s e e k s t o summarise the evidence in the statements, to the extent that the report seeks to analyse that evidence and it seeks to make a recommendation based on the summary of the statements and the analysis of the statements, it seems to me, that you would lose nothing as a prosecutor if you 10 studied the statements d e c i s i o n , o k a y. thoroughly and arrived at your It may be that when you’ve arrived at your decision and you have more time, you take the report, you s a y, o h , i t w a s a l s o m a k i n g – i t a r r i v e d a t t h e s a m e conclusion as me, so it’s fine you know but if, in the report, you have something that doesn’t seek to summarise or analyse the contents of statements but seeks to tell the N PA s o m e t h i n g e l s e t h a t , t h a t m i g h t b e d i f f e r e n t b u t t h e n that something else, I would imagine, would not be of any legal importance if it is not evidence but if it is evidence, 20 e v e n i f i t ’ s e v i d e n c e b y t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r, t h e n i t w o u l d b e . So, it seems to me that we might be able to agree that insofar as the report seeks only to summarise the contents of statements and to analyse statements and come up prosecutor who doesn’t the with look a at Page 180 of 255 contents of those recommendation, it but studies a the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 statements properly and thoroughly and makes a decision is likely to do his or her job properly but it may be that it’s advisable to have a look at the report. M R J U LY : B u t h o w w o u l d t h e p r o s e c u t o r t h e n , C h a i r, comes to the conclusion that I agree or I do not agree with the report, I know that the decision is theirs but that p e r s o n m u s t b e i n a p o s i t i o n t o s a y, I d o n ’ t a g r e e w i t h t h e report, how do you do that? CHAIRPERSON: 10 But is there a law – is there a requirement that the prosecutor must indicate whether he or she agrees with the report. M R J U LY : N o . CHAIRPERSON: Because if there is no requirement, that nobody – she’s not required to do that and it would seem to m e , s u b j e c t t o w h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e t o s a y, i t w o u l d s e e m that the report might be helpful…. [your last paragraph below so you type up to 1.30.00] 20 CHAIRPERSON: ...the report might be helpful and maybe very useful to a prosecutor who decides to read it, but if a prosecutor says look I have a lot of cases, I don’t have time, I will look at what really matters, I will look at the statements, and I will apply my mind properly and make my decision. A s l o n g a s I m a ke m y d e ci si o n s o n t h e b a si s o f Page 181 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e st a t e m e n t s I w i l l b e f i n e . M R J U LY : Ye s. T h a t C h a i r I u n d e r st a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : But now what do you do with the intention of the p e r s o n w h o i s p r e p a ri n g t h a t re p o rt ? They also know what y o u a r e s a yi n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : B u t i f m y i n t e n t i o n o f c h a n g i n g t h e r e p o rt i s t o influence you. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h e f a ct t h a t I d i d n o t s u c c e e d t o i n f l u e n c e y o u y o u d e ci d e d t o i g n o r e t h e re p o rt . Does the intention go away? CHAIRPERSON: No, no I think you are now on another – on another issue. I a m n o t – I a m o n a d i ff e r e n t o n e . I am l o o ki n g a t – I a m l o o ki n g si m p l e a t t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e v a l u e , t h e l e g a l v a l u e o f t h e r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I s i t – t h a t i s w h a t I a m l o o ki n g a t t o s a y w h a t i s t h e l e g a l si g n i f i c a n ce o r t h e si g n i f i ca n c e i n l a w o f t h i s r e p o rt ? A n d p a rt i c u l a rl y i n t h e l i g h t o f t h e f a ct t h a t w e a l l a g r e e t h a t t h e p r o s e cu t o r n e e d s t o b a s e h i s o r h e r d e ci si o n o n t h e st a t e m e n t . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I f h e o r sh e h a s h a d t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e Page 182 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 re p o rt b e f o r e m a k i n g t h e d e c i si o n t h a t i s f i n e . But as long a s h e r d e ci si o n o r h i s d e ci s i o n i s b a se d o n t h e st a t em e n t s nobody could you know have a problem with that. M R J U LY : Ye s. C h a i r yo u m u st a l s o b e a r i n m i n d t h a t w h e n w e l o o k a t i t w e a re l o o ki n g a t i t n o t f ro m t h e e n d o f t h a t i t i s n o t g o i n g t o b e re a d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : We a re l o o ki n g a t i t f ro m t h e i n t e n t i o n o f t h e p e r s o n w h o i s d r a f t i n g t h e re p o rt . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R J U LY : And I am not going to accept that a person who d o e s n o t s u c ce e d i n h i s a t t e m p t s t o m a k e t h a t i n f l u e n c e si m p l y b e c a u s e t h e p r o s e c u t o r f a i l e d t o r e a d t h e r e p o rt a n d therefore that person had no intention to defeat the ends of j u st i c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l t h e – M r H u l l e y y o u m i g h t w i s h t o l o o k a t t h i s a n d t a k e t h i s f u rt h e r. B u t t h e r e i s t h e q u e st i o n w h i c h I ra i s e d i n t h e m o r n i n g . M R J U LY : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: To s a y i t s e e m s d i ff i c u l t t o a c c e p t t h a t i f I k n o w t h a t b e f o r e y o u m a k e y o u r d e ci si o n yo u w i l l l o o k a t t h i s f i l e – Fi l e A . B e c a u se y o u m u st m a k e y o u r d e ci si o n o n t h e b a si s o f – o f w h a t i s i n Fi l e A . M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I g i v e yo u Fi l e B t h a t i s s u p p o s e d t o b e a Page 183 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s u m m a r y o r a n a l y si s o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f Fi l e A a n d I c h a n g e c e rt a i n t h i n g s n o t t o b e c o n si st e n t w i t h w h a t i s i n F i l e A i f I k n o w t h a t yo u w i l l st a rt a t Fi l e A i t s e e m s d i ff i cu l t t o – t o t h i n k t h a t I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t I w i l l s u c c e s sf u l l y i n f l u e n c e y o u . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Because I know you are going to look at this and when you look this you will see that I have – I have n o t g i v e n – I h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h ce r t a i n i n f o rm a t i o n . M R J U LY : We h a v e n o t l o o k e d f r o m t h a t a n g l e o f s u c c e s s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Whether they will succeed or not. We l o o k e d a t t h e w h o l e c o n d u ct a n d t h e i n t e n t i o n a n d w e f o u n d t h e intention there. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Whether what they did they believed in their m i n d s t h a t t h e y w e re g o i n g t o s u c c e e d a n d w h et h e r i n d e e d they succeeded that is another issue. But at the time of c h a n g i n g t h e r e p o rt o t h e r w i se t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n . N o re a s o n for it. 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o I u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u a r e sa yi n g b u t do you not say when you look at his or her – his intention t h a t i s n o w t h e i n v e st i g a t o r w h o d o e s t h i s. Do you not a c c e p t t h a t t h e f a ct t h a t h e kn o w s y o u w i l l – b e f o r e y o u m a k e a d e c i si o n y o u w i l l l o o k a t F i l e A a n d y o u w i l l s e e e x a ct l y e v e r yt h i n g t h a t i n cl u d i n g w h a t e ve r h e m i g h t n o t h a v e Page 184 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 i n cl u d e d i n Fi l e B d o e s s e e m t o w e a k e n t h e f o r c e o f t h e a r g u m e n t t h a t sa y s, h e h a d a n i n t e n t i o n t o i n f l u e n ce . M R J U LY : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : B e ca u s e p e o p l e w h o g o a n d st e a l e v e n i f t h e y k n o w t h a t t o g e t a c c e s s, t h e y m i g h t b e d i ff i cu l t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : B u t t h e y w o u l d g o t h e r e i n a n y e v e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R J U LY : W i t h t h e h o p e t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o s u c c e e d i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : So if they do not succeed it does not change the c ri m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o t h e r w o r d s, y o u a r e sa y i n g … M R J U LY : T h a t w a s t h e i n t e n t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e y m i g h t b e t a k i n g t h e i r c h a n c e s. M R J U LY : T h e y w e re t a ki n g ch a n c e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n ca s e t h e d e ci si o n d o e s n o t … M R J U LY : W h a t i f t h e o t h e r – C h a i r p e r s o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : R e a d t h e st a t e m e n t s. M R J U LY : W h a t i f t h e o t h e r p ro s e c u t o r d i d n o t l o o k a t t h e re p o rt ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. I f I c a n m o v e o n ? Page 185 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: B e c a u s e w e h a v e sp e n t m u c h t i m e o n t h i s. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I s e e w e a r e a t s i x m i n u t e s t o b u t I know Mr July – I have occupied Mr July for quite some time. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f I ca n … CHAIRPERSON: How much time do you think you need? I … ADV HULLEY SC: 10 I f I c a n j u st g o t h ro u g h a n d p u t a s e r i e s p r o p o si t i o n s t o M r J u l y ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: H e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e p r o p o si t i o n s a n d t h e n w e c o u l d w r a p u p M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A s I l o o k y o u r re p o rt a n d I kn o w t h a t y o u h a ve s p e n t q u i t e a b i t o f t i m e a n a l y si n g t h e f i r st re p o rt , a n a l y si n g t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt a n d y o u h a v e a l m o st d o n e – y o u h a ve d o n e a t a b l e w h e r e yo u h a v e m i rr o r e d t h e t w o r e p o rt s a g a i n st e a c h o t h e r i n o r d e r t o – t o d e m o n st r a t e h o w t h e t w o 20 re p o rt s d i ff e r f r o m e a ch o t h e r. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: I n d e ci d i n g w h i c h o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s i s t h e co r r e ct r e p o r t – w h i c h o t h e r r e p o rt . Tw o r e p o rt s h a s c o m e t o t h e c o r r e ct co n cl u si o n u n d e r st a n d t h a t yo u – y o u c o m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e f i r st r e p o rt c o m e s t o t h e Page 186 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 c o r r e ct co n cl u si o n o n t h e b a si s o f t h e a v a i l a b l e i n f o rm a t i o n , i s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d i f I u n d e r st a n d c o rr e ct l y w h e n d o i n g t h a t e x e r ci se y o u w e n t t h ro u g h – y o u s i m p l y l o o ke d a t t h e s u m m a r y o r t h e r e p o rt i t s e l f y o u w e re n o t i n v e st i g a t i n g o r l o o ki n g a t t h a t r e p o rt a n d c o m p a ri n g i t t o w h a t w a s c o n t a i n e d in the docket. M R J U LY : W h e r e ? 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : We re y o u ? M R J U LY : We a l s o l o o k e d a t t h e d o c k e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d ? M R J U LY : We h a d t o l o o k a t t h e d o c k e t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : C h a i r. We w e re p r o vi d e d w i t h t h e d o c ke t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. M R J U LY : S o w e h a d t o l o o k a t t h e d o c k e t w h i ch i s w h y w e a l s o ca m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n i n o t h e r r e sp e ct s t o c o n f i r m . F o r i n st a n c e , w h e n y o u d e l e t e w h e t h e r t h e S u c c e s s R e p o rt 20 where they – we will look – we will go and look that no these re p o rt s a r e h e re w h y i s i t r e p o rt e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o S u c c e s s R e p o rt ? W h e n t h e r e i s p h y si c a l l y t h e r e i s a re p o rt . Yo u g o a n d d e l e t e w h e r e i t s a y s S u c c e s s R e p o rt w a s s e n t t o s o a n d s o a n d t h e n y o u d e l e t e t h a t p a rt . B u t t h e S u c c e s s R e p o rt w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e m t h e r e a re e m a i l s t h e y a r e s e n t t o s o Page 187 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a n d s o b u t t h a t p a rt i s d e l e t e d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w w h a t I – w h e n I w e n t t h ro u g h y o u r – t h r o u g h yo u r r e p o rt o n e t h i n g t h a t s t ru c k m e a b o u t t h e r e p o rt i s t h a t t h e r e p o r t a p p e a r s t o s u m m a ri s e y o u – a n d I a m t a l ki n g now about the We r k sm a n s R e p o rt appears to s u m m a ri se t h e f i r st r e p o rt i n e x p l a i n i n g w h y i t i s t h a t t h e c o n cl u si o n i s c o r r e ct . I t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o s u m m a ri s e t h e d o c ke t . M R J U LY : N o , n o . 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : A m I – d o I m i s u n d e r st a n d t h a t ? M R J U LY : N o , n o y o u m i s u n d e r st a n d i n g i t . Yo u n e e d t o g o t h r o u g h t h e w h o l e re p o rt . A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. M R J U LY : Yo u n e e d t o g o t h r o u g h t h e w h o l e r e p o r t . That re p o rt su m m a ri s e s – w e f i r st st a rt w i t h w h a t t h e r e p o rt s a y s. Yo u s h o u l d a l s o re m e m b e r C h a i r t h e f i r st r e p o rt a n d t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt t h a t i s w h y w e c o m e t o t h e co n cl u si o n t h a t t h e r e i s n o s e c o n d r e p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R J U LY : I n f a ct , w h a t h a p p e n e d i s t h e p e o p l e a m e n d e d t h e f i r st r e p o rt w h i c h t h e y d e n y t h a t i t e x i st e d . w h a t w e a r e sa yi n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : S o w e l o o k e d a t i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Page 188 of 255 Right that is 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : And we say what he says because remember s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t a r e i n K h u b a ’s r e p o rt h e r e p e a t e d t h e m w h e n w e i n t e r v i e w e d C h a i r p e r s o n ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Ye s w e l l i t i s – i t i s i n t e r e st i n g t h a t y o u j u st u s e t h e w o r d a m e n d e d . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B e ca u s e e a rl i e r o n I w a n t e d t o p u t t o yo u t h a t m a y b e w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s e ff e ct i ve l y t h a t t h e f i r st re p o rt w a s e ff e ct i v e l y a m e n d e d . 10 M R J U LY : J a . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h i c h so u n d s m o re a c c e p t a b l e t o m e t h a n t h e a l t e ra t i o n a n d s o o n b u t y o u m u st r e m e m b e r t h a t i n a w a y w h e n y o u a m e n d y o u a l t e r. M R J U LY : N o C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But somehow it seems to – to sound less st ra n g e t h a n t h e i d e a o f a l t e r a t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e a l t e ra t i o n j u st s e e m s t o g i v e m e t h i s p h y si c a l a l t e r a t i o n . 20 M R J U LY : Tw o t h i n g s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I n f a c t I a m u si n g a m e n d m e n t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Ye s. B u t i n t e rm s o f d e l e t i o n o f i n f o r m a t i o n . Page 189 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. M R J U LY : T h a t i s a n o t h e r i s su e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : W h e n y o u t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e a m e n d m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Do not speak too far from the microphone. M R J U LY : No, no when I talk about the amendment Chair I a m m a ki n g r e f e r e n c e t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. M R J U LY : B u t i n f a ct t h e – t h e y w e re d e l e t i o n s t o j u s t i f y t h e amendment. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Yo u k n o w so m e t i m e s h o w t h e s e t h i n g s so u n d i n o n e s e a r a n d i n o n e ’s m i n d i s v e r y st ra n g e b e ca u s e i n t h e e n d w h e n y o u l o o k a t – w h e n y o u a m e n d – w h e n y o u a m e n d yo u – y o u c h a n g e a n d w h e n y o u d e l e t e s o m e t h i n g i n a d o c u m e n t y o u e ff e ct i v e l y c h a n g e i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t n o l o n g e r h a s t h e sa m e t h i n g s t h a t i t h a d before. 20 M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: So – so… M R J U LY : B u t yo u w o u l d a l s o w a n t t o kn o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w I u n d e r st a n d y o u . MR J U LY : Yo u will also want j u st i f i c a t i o n f o r t h a t d e l e t i o n . Page 190 of 255 to know what is the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine ja. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w j u st w i t h s o f a r a s t h e – i f I c a n m o v e o v e r t o t h e o ff e n c e s t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l Sibiya. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: B e c a u s e o b vi o u sl y t h e a l l e g a t i o n s a l s o t h a t t h e M i n i st e r w a s a n d t h a t i s t h e a l l e g a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n 10 m a d e b y M r M c B r i d e , M r S e s o ko a n d M r K h u b a . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t i n f a ct t h e re w a s n o w r o n g d o i n g o n t h e p a rt o f M r D r a m a t – s o r r y G e n e r a l D ra m a t . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: And General Sibiya and there was – the e vi d e n c e d i d n o t s u p p o rt s u c h a f i n d i n g . A n d t h e s u g g e st i o n i s t h a t b y u si n g We r k sm a n s t h e M i n i st e r h a d i n f a ct s o u g h t a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o re i n v e n t a c a s e a g a i n st t h e G e n e r a l D r a m a t and General Sibiya one that had already found by IPID to be 20 – t o h a ve b e e n w i t h o u t m e ri t . the argument? Yo u f a m i l i ar w i t h t h e – w i t h I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e a r g u m e n t o f M r M c B ri d e , S e s o k o a n d K h u b a . M R J U LY : O h t h a t – t h a t M i n i st e r w a n t e d t o u s e t h e We r k sm a n s R e p o r t . ADV HULLEY SC: We l l w a n t e d t o We r k sm a n s h e h a d Page 191 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a p p o i n t e d We r k s m a n s i n o rd e r t o c o m e u p w i t h a r e p o rt t h a t w o u l d h a v e t h e e ff e ct o f r e i n st i t u t i n g – i f I c a n t a k e y o u b a c k j u st t o g i v e y o u s o m e c o n t e xt . So there is this report which is dated the 22 January which makes a finding. M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. ADV HULLEY SC: And as the – as the theory goes and I am p u t t i n g j u st t h e o r y – t h e t h e o r y g o e s t h a t re p o rt w o u l d b e s u ff i ci e n t i f r e l i e d u p o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : To g e t ri d o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a b e c a u s e i t c o m e s t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h e y w o u l d b e s u s p e n d e d a n d o f co u r se p u r s u a n t t o t h e i r s u s p e n s i o n t h e a r g u m e n t i s t h a t M r o r r a t h e r t h a t G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a t h e n ca n t h e n m o v e i n t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s p o si t i o n . M R J U LY : O h . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u f o l l o w ? M R J U LY : T h a t – t h a t w e w e re n o t e v e n i n t e re st e d i n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w a n yt h i n g a b o u t that. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: N o , I a m n o t s a yi n g t h a t y o u a r e p a rt o f that. M R J U LY : N o , n o I a m s a yi n g w h e n w e w e r e g i v e n t w o re p o rt s w e w e r e n o t i n t e r e st e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : W h a t i t i s i n t e n d e d f o r. Page 192 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: And you will not have been told. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e re w a s s u ch a p u r p o s e y o u w o u l d n o t h a ve b e e n t o l d a b o u t i t a n y w a y. M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: I do not want to touch upon that n e ce s s a ri l y b u t t h e p o i n t i s I a m t r yi n g t o g i v e y o u c o n t e xt a s t o w h y t h e c a s e a g a i n st G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a 10 w a s so i m p o rt a n t . A n d o f c o u r s e y o u c o m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e r e w a s s u ff i ci e n t i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e d o c k e t t o s h o w p r i m a f a ci e t h a t t h e y h a d c o m m i t t e d t h e c ri m e . M R J U LY : T h a t ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t t h e y h a d c o m m i t t e d s e v e r a l c ri m e s. I a m t a l ki n g o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a . M R J U LY : T h a t t h e y d i d n o t ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e y h a d . Yo u c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. T h a t t h e y h a d c o m m i t t e d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct . 20 M R J U LY : O h y e s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h a t t h e r e w a s s u ff i ci e n t i n f o r m a t i o n p r i m a f a ci e . M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. N o t h a t i s t r u e . T h a t i s t r u e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h a t i s w h a t t h e c o n cl u s i o n t h a t w e r e a c h e d . Page 193 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : A n d yo u w a n t t o kn o w w h y w e r e a c h e d t h a t c o n cl u si o n ? ADV HULLEY SC: We l l I d o n o t w a n t t o n e ce s s a r i l y g o t h r o u g h a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I w a n t t o j u st t a k e y o u t h r o u g h o t h e r w i s e i f w e w e r e t o d o t h a t w e w o u l d b e h e r e f o r a n o t h e r d a y. M R J U LY : N o b u t I t h i n k – n o , n o , n o I a m n o t t a l ki n g a b o u t 10 telling you blow by blow I am saying why having said after t h e a n a l y si s s a i d S i b i y a w a s n o t a t D i e p s l o o t . We d i d n o t i n st e a d w h a t w e d i d w e a g r e e d w i t h t h e a n a l y si s. We s a i d w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : A n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e a n a l y si s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : L e t u s a c c e p t t h e a n a l y si s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : 20 These two guys – three guys who said they saw Sibiya is their own problem. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : B u t w h a t w e t h e n sa y t h e r e i s a r e s p o n si b i l i t y h e r e . T h e re i s n o w a y t h a t S i b i y a b e i n g a h e a d o f TO M S a n d h a vi n g a g r e e d t o p r o vi d e t h e p e r so n n e l a n d w e h a v e a l r e a d y h a d a n e vi d e n c e w h i c h i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e d o c k e t b y M r L e o n Page 194 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Ve r st e r – M s Ve r s t e r – I t h i n k i t i s Ve r st e r s a yi n g … A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s Ve r st e r. M R J U LY : S h e – t h i s M a l u l e k e w a s n o l o n g e r r e p o rt i n g t o me. – She he is my subordinate but he was t a ki n g i n st r u ct i o n s f r o m S i b i y a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : Right and we also took into account Chair the f a ct t h a t t h e y w e n t t o Z i m b a b w e . T h e y c o m e t o S o u t h A f r i ca . T h e e vi d e n c e b y M a d i l o n g a i s st i l l t h e r e . 10 We t h e n s a y b u t t h e co n cl u si o n c a n n o t b e ri g h t b e c a u s e t h e s e p e o p l e h a ve t o be held accountable. not our issue. W h e t h e r t h e y w e r e p h y s i ca l l y t h a t i s We s a i d t h e y s h o u l d b e a c c o u n t a b l e . Chair j u st t o r e m i n d y o u re n d i t i o n h a s b e e n d e cl a r e d o n e o f t h e c ri m e a g a i n st h u m a n i t y. It is an international thing. We a r e p a rt o f t h e H u m a n R i g h t s – D e cl a ra t i o n o f H u m a n R i g h t s. P a r a d e cl a ra t i o n a n d a l l t h e se o t h e r d e cl a ra t i o n s w e a r e p a rt of that. And now what happened is that in terms of rendition y o u m a y n o t p i n p o i n t t h i s – t h e y w e r e s o l d i e r s, p e o p l e w h o c o m m i t t h a t . S o m e t i m e s d o t h a t b e c a u se o f t h e i n st r u ct i o n s. 20 Now how do you hold people up there who are accountable? Yo u l o o k a t t h e i r k n o w l e d g e b e f o r e a n d a f t e r. W h a t w e k n o w i s t h a t b e f o r e i t i s n o t a c o i n ci d e n c e t h a t t h e p e o p l e – t h e p o l i c e o ff i ce r s n o w t h a t c a m e i n t o t h e co u n t r y i t i s b e ca u s e there was a s si st a n c e . an u n d e r st a n d i n g Right. that there would be that The second thing is now the sending of Page 195 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e p h o t o s t h a t w e r e se n t t o S i b i y a a n d t h e y w e re a l s o s e n t to Dramat. Right. N o w w e c o n cl u d e d t h a t – a n d t h e r e i s a n e vi d e n c e w h i c h s a y s D r a m a t c a m e t o a m e e t i n g w h e r e t h e s e p e o p l e w e re c o -r e g u l a t e d . We c o n s i d e r e d a l l o f t h a t a n d w e s a i d b e c a u s e o f t h a t r e sp o n si b i l i t y t h e p o si t i o n t h a t t h e y occupy there is no way that they did not know about this re n d i t i o n . T h e n t h a t i s h o w w e c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u s i o n t h a t they should be accountable. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 Yo u s e e t h e – a s f a r a s t h e p h o t o g r a p h s a r e c o n ce r n e d t h e p h o t o g r a p h s w e re n e v e r s e n t j u st t o a n s w e r a f e w q u e st i o n s t h a t y o u h a v e r a i s e d o r i s s u e s t h a t you have raised. P h o t o g r a p h s w e r e n e v e r a ct u a l l y s e n t t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s I u n d e r st a n d i t . M R J U LY : To t h e PA . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e y w e re i n f a c t s e n t t o h i s PA . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d a s I u n d e r st a n d i t i t w a s s e n t t o h i s PA M R J U LY : N o t f o r h i s p u r p o se . 20 ADV HULLEY SC: F o r t h e p u r p o s e o f p ri n t i n g i t a n d t o g i v e it back to … M R J U LY : N o , n o . A D V H U L L E Y S C : D o I m i s u n d e r st a n d ? M R J U LY : B e c a u s e l o o k n o w w e u n d e r st o o d i t . N o t – t h a t i s n o t h o w w e u n d e r st o o d i t . I t w a s n o t f o r t h e p ri n t i n g . Page 196 of 255 E ve n 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 i f i t w a s f o r t h e p r i n t i n g w h y co u l d t h e y n o t p ri n t t h e m s e l v e s ? Maluleke and them. T h e f a ct o f t h e m a t t e r w e h a d e vi d e n c e t h a t i n d e e d h e c a m e t o t h e m e e t i n g b u t w h a t w a s i n d i sp u t e is what he said when he left the meeting. Whether indeed he s a i d t h a t m e e t i n g m u st n o t b e t a l k e d a b o u t t h a t h e w a s t h e r e . B e c a u s e t h e r e w e re co n f l i ct i n g v e r si o n s t h e r e . T h e r e i s o n e w h o sa i d y e s h e w a s t h e r e b u t I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h i s p a rt w h e r e h e s a i d w e m u st n o t t a l k a b o u t h i m h a vi n g attended a meeting. That is the only thing. But insofar as us 10 b e i n g t o l d n o t d i ff e r e n t l y t h a t h e w a s i n t h a t m e e t i n g h e k n e w about the presence and not only that there was a meeting of the 5th November when the operation took place on the 5th in t h e e a rl y h o u r s o f t h e m o r n i n g o f t h e 6 t h . S o t h a t m e e t i n g i s also not disputed. What is being disputed is to analyse – the a n a l y si s t h e n s a y s, yo u d o n o t kn o w w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d i n t h a t m e e t i n g . B u t n o b o d y s a y t h e Zi m b a b w e a n s w e r e n o t there. T h e r e i s a m p l e e vi d e n c e t h a t t h e Z i m b a b w e a n s t h a t o p e r a t e d t h e r e – t h e y w e r e Zi m b a b w e a n s w h o m e t w i t h D r a m a t i n t h e o ff i c e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Te l l m e Mr J u l y m a y b e a s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r e st d i d y o u e v e r l o o k i n t o t h e q u e st i o n o f w h y p e o p l e i n the position of General Dramat and Sibiya would have w a n t e d t o b e p a rt y t o a n i l l e g a l e xt ra d i t i o n o f Zi m b a b w e a n s w h e n o t h e r w i s e t h e y c o u l d g e t H o m e A ff a i r s t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a n d t h e n t h e y c o u l d b e e xt r a d i t e d i n – i n a l a w f u l w a y. Page 197 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s i n f a ct C h a i r t h i s i s s u e i s r a i s e d b y t h e Zimbabweans in a meeting that they had on the 6th. They ra i se d t h e i s s u e t h a t w e h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h S o u t h A f ri c a n g o ve r n m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : P e o p l e w h o c o m m i t c ri m e i n Zi m b a b w e w h e n t h e y ru n t o S o u t h A f ri c a , w e d o n o t g e t t h e m e a sy. C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t t h e m b a c k. M R J U LY : 10 T h e y cl a i m p o l i t i c a l a s y l u m . That is one. Right. So we have a problem with that. Not only that Chair you will re m e m b e r I a m n o t s u r e w i t h t h e c a s e s t h a t w e h a v e q u o t e d w h e r e y o u w e re p a rt o f t h o s e j u d g m e n t s t h a t w e c a n n o t e v e n w h e n w e u s e e xt ra d i t i o n e xt r a d i t e p e o p l e o f Zi m b a b w e o r B o t s w a n a t o t h o s e c o u n t ri e s i f t h e p u n i sh m e n t i s g o i n g t o b e capital punishment. We w o u l d s e e k u n d e rt a ki n g s a s t h i s country that those people will not be sentenced to death. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : S o w e w i l l n e v e r a s t h i s c o u n t r y e xt ra d i t e a p e r s o n w h o i s g o i n g t o b e s e n t e n c e d t o d e a t h t h a t si d e . B u t 20 i n t h i s c a se i t w a s a n a g r e e m e n t t o h a n d t h e m o v e r. H e re i s the thing what happened. C o i n ci d e n t a l l y a f t e r t h a t m e e t i n g i n S e p t e m b e r a s u p e ri n t e n d e n t w a s ki l l e d . T h e y d e s p e r a t e l y w a n t e d t o g e t t h e s u p e ri n t e n d e n t . A n d i t i s st a t e d t h a t m u c h i n t h e S u c c e s s R e p o rt . It is not something that we dream u p . M a l u l e ke s a y s t h a t i n t h e r e p o r t . Page 198 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : I t i s n o t w h a t w e t h i n k. Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M r H u l l e y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w – t h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. T h e i m p o rt a n t thing. C H A I R P E R S O N : We a re a t t e n p a s t f o u r. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f I ca n j u st h a v e a f e w m o r e m i n u t e s j u st t o w r a p u p M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: J u st q u i c kl y t o d e a l w i t h s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d t o c o rr e ct s o m e o f t h e p r o p o si t i o n s t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e m a d e e a rl i e r o n . I t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t y o u make the point now that in September of 2010 that is when t h e Zi m b a b w e a n s u p e ri n t e n d e n t w a s a p p a r e n t l y ki l l e d . M R J U LY : J a . ADV HULLEY SC: T h i s o p e r a t i o n i n f a ct t o o k p l a c e i n N o v e m b e r a n d p o s si b l y i n t h e f o l l o w i n g y e a r o f 2 0 1 0 i n t o 20 2 0 11 , co r r e ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: But the meeting between Mr Dramat or G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h e Zi m b a b w e a n o ff i ci a l s w a s o n t h e 6 A u g u st . M R J U LY : Wa s o n t h e 6 t h y e s. Page 199 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: T h e 6 t h A u g u st t h e p ro p o si t i o n t h a t y o u h a ve a d v a n ce d i s t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t m e e t i n g . M R J U LY : N o . ADV HULLEY SC: I f I u n d e r st o o d co r r e ct l y y o u w e re – yo u w e re a c c e p t i n g t h e p r o p o si t i o n t h a t t h e p u rp o s e o f t h a t m e e t i n g w a s t o g e t h o l d o f Z i m b a b w e a n c ri m i n a l s i n re l a t i o n t o t h a t c ri m e . M R J U LY : Yo u g o t m e w r o n g . A D V H U L L E Y S C : D i d I m i s u n d e r st a n d y o u ? 10 M R J U LY : N o y o u m i s u n d e r st o o d m e . I a m s a yi n g t h e y w e re t a l ki n g a b o u t f u g i t i v e s i n g e n e ra l i n t h a t m e e t i n g o f t h e 6th. I t w a s a b o u t f u g i t i v e s i n g e n e ra l c o i n ci d e n t a l l y w h i c h i t so happened S e p t e m b e r. that the su p e ri n t e n d e n t was killed in And in that meeting they agreed that in three m o n t h s t h e y m u st g e t t o g e t h e r a n d t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s t o o k f r o m b o t h si d e s t w o p e o p l e w h o h a d a p p o i n t e d t o coordinate this issue. So when they came here it was e x a ct l y t h r e e m o n t h s b a se d o n t h e m e e t i n g t h a t a t t h e s a m e t i m e , t h e y h a v e g o t t h i s s u p e r i n t e n d e n t w h o w a s ki l l e d . 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s a l l y o u g o t t o s a y ? M R J U LY : N o I a m f i n i s h e d . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A r e y o u co m p l e t e ? M R J U LY : N o I a m f i n i s h e d . ADV HULLEY SC: S o r r y t h e – a s I u n d e r st a n d i t t h e S u c c e s s R e p o rt i f y o u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o b u n d l e L E A 1 4 . Page 200 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Yu p . ADV HULLEY SC: T h e S u c c e s s R e p o rt a s I u n d e r st a n d i t w a s s e n t t o s e v e r a l p e o p l e , i s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : J a i t w a s s e n t t o s e v e r a l p e o p l e i n cl u d i n g D r a m a t that is how they do it. ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s a n d d o y o u r e c a l l w h o t h e o t h e r p e o p l e w e re t h a t i t w a s se n t t o ? M R J U LY : I ca n n o t r e m e m b e r. A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. 10 M R J U LY : I c a n n o t r e ca l l . I c a n n o t re c a l l . We c a n g o there. ADV HULLEY SC: I f yo u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o p a g e – I h a ve g o t i t d o w n o v e r h e r e a s 1 3 2 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t w e n t y f i ve p a s t I w i l l st o p y o u . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. M R J U LY : Yu p p a g e ? ADV HULLEY SC: J u st b e a r w i t h m e I s e e m t o h a v e t h e w r o n g – t h e w r o n g d o cu m e n t . T h e – i f y o u j u st b e a r w i t h m e . I t i s i n f a ct i n B u n d l e L E A 1 3 M r C h a i r. 20 M R J U LY : 1 3 ? ADV HULLEY SC: re c a l l c o rr e ct l y T h a t i s ri g h t m y a p o l o g i e s. that S u c ce s s R e p o rt had a m o n g st o t h e r s t o G e n e r a l L e b e y a a s w e l l . M R J U LY : H m . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u r e c a l l t h a t ? Page 201 of 255 If I called – been sent to 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : P a g e – w h a t p a g e a r e y o u i n ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I a m l o o ki n g f o r p a g e 1 3 2 9 . M R J U LY : O k a y w e c a n t a l k a b o u t t h i s I k n o w. I looked at t h e d o c u m e n t s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : B u t m y p a g i n a t i o n s y st e m s e e m s t o h a v e gone. D o n o t w o rr y a b o u t t h a t . B u t y o u w i l l r e ca l l t h a t i t w a s se n t t o G e n e ra l L e b e ya a s w e l l . that you did not make a N o w m y r e c o l l e ct i o n i s recommendation that General Lebeya should be charged. 10 M R J U LY : A r e y o u s u r e ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d w e t ri e d t o M R J U LY : A r e y o u s u r e a b o u t t h a t ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t i s m y r e c o l l e ct i o n b u t yo u c o r r e ct me if I am wrong. M R J U LY : N o yo u ca n y o u r s e l f a n d r e a d t h e r e p o rt s t h a t s a y that. N o t w i t h st a n d i n g t h a t L e b e y a sa y s t h i s i s h o w w e re c e i v e – I w o u l d h a ve w ri t t e n n o t e d b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t I do. B u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t b u t w e s a i d h e m u st b e charged. 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. M R J U LY : A n d t h a t i s a p ri m a f a ci e vi e w t h a t w e h a v e . W h e t h e r N PA ch a r g e s o r n o t . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. M R J U LY : It is up to them. A n d i f t h e y ch a r g e t h e y m u st k n o w t h e i r st o r y. Page 202 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: O k a y. T h e n – a n d f o r t h e s a ke o f – f o r the sake of speeding up this thing I am not going to go t h r o u g h t h a t f o r t h e p re s e n t p u r p o se s. If you – if you c o n si d e r t h e d i ff e re n t – t h e d i ff e r e n t r e p o rt s f o r i n st a n ce t h e p h o t o g ra p h s t h e r e w a s n o e vi d e n c e t h a t a s a f a ct G e n e ra l L e b e y a – s o rr y G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e c e i v e d t h e d o c u m e n t a n d i f I re c a l l co r re ct l y t h e r e i s n o r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a t a l l t h a t t h e – that the secretary or the PA should be – should be i n v e st i g a t e d a n d a st a t e m e n t o b t a i n e d f u rt h e r o r a n yt h i n g t o 10 t h a t e ff e ct . M R J U LY : We c a n f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h a t d o c u m e n t w e c a n j u st r e m o v e t h e i s s u e o f t h e p h o t o g r a p h s t h e r e w i t h o u t re c o m m e n d a t i o n s st a n d y e s. Knowledge – because all what w e a r e s a yi n g k n o w l e d g e a n d w e st a t e o u t w h y w e s a i d h e w a s a w a r e o f t h i s. h a ve b e e n w r o n g . T h a t i s a l l y o u h a d t o s a y. We m i g h t Th a t m e e t i n g w h i c h w a s h e l d o n t h e 5 t h a n d o n t h a t v e r y s a m e d a y a n d L e o n Ve r st e r h a s a l s o m a d e a n a ff i d a vi t w h i c h i s i n t h e d o c k e t w h e r e h e s a y s, I ca m e b a c k w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e f r o m a n AT M b o m b i n g s o m e w h e r e 20 around twelve midnight. W h e n I g e t t o t h e o ff i c e t h e r e w e r e c a r s, a l o t o f ca r s . T h a t o ff i c e t h a t h e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t i s t h e o ff i c e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t . S o … A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o rr y s o w h a t i s y o u r p o i n t ? M R J U LY : S o t h e p o i n t t h a t I a m t r yi n g t o m a k e I a m a n s w e ri n g t h e i s s u e o f k n o w l e d g e . Knowledge is not about Page 203 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 p h o t o g ra p h s – n o t a b o u t p h o t o s. ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s. B u t w h a t w e a r e co n c e rn e d w i t h i s n o t k n o w l e d g e t h a t a n o p e r a t i o n h a d b e e n c o n d u ct e d . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: But rather knowledge that the operation was an unlawful one. M R J U LY : N o i t w a s u n l a w f u l . I t s t a rt s … ADV HULLEY SC: unlawful. 10 N o w e a r e n o t a s ki n g w h e t h e r i t w a s If you do not mind. We t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e t h e r there was knowledge that it was unlawful. M R J U LY : N o . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s t h e p o i n t I a m r e f e rr i n g t o . M R J U LY : N o . C h a i r i f t h e o p e r a t i o n w a s a l a w f u l o p e r a t i o n b e ca u s e y o u n e e d f i r st f o r y o u t o b e a b l e t o i m p l i ca t e D r a m a t a n d t h e m y o u n e e d t o g i v e t h e l e g a l st a t u s o f t h e r e n d i t i o n . I t w a s u n l a w f u l . I f y o u l e a ve t h e st a t e m e n t o f M a d i l o n g a h o w does Zimbabwean police get into the country was unlawful to the fold. Yo u a l l o w t h e p o l i c e o f Z i m b a b w e t h a t y o u – w e r e m e t – yo u s e e m e d t o b e i n a m e e t i n g o n t h e 5 t h t o d o t h e 20 p o l i ci n g i n t h e c o u n t r y i n S o u t h A f ri c a . And people get a r r e st e d a n d s o m e o f t h o s e p e o p l e w h o g o t a rr e st e d a r e handed over and again the handing over happens – there is a n a l l e g a t i o n b e c a u se i t i s c o n f i rm e d b y H o m e A ff a i r s f r o m O r l a n d o P o l i c e S t a t i o n t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e m o v e d d i r e ct f ro m O r l a n d o st r a i g h t t o B e i t B ri d g e . R i g h t . S o a l l w h a t I a m Page 204 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s a yi n g i s t h e w h o l e t ra n s a ct i o n – t h e w h o l e o p e r a t i o n w a s u n l a w f u l st a rt i n g f ro m t h e c a l l t h a t w a s m a d e . ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u M r C h a i r. I n so f a r a s t h e u n l a w f u l n e s s o f t h e e n t r y i n t o S o u t h A f ri c a i s c o n c e r n e d I m u st c o n f e s s I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n y b o d y s a y t h a t b e f o r e . M R J U LY : N o . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u s e e m t o – a n d i t s e e m s t o b e t h e f i r st time that it is being said now that there was a breach of the l a w j u st e n t e ri n g i n t o t h e c o u n t ry. J u st e x p l a i n t h a t t o u s ? 10 M R J U LY : S o i t i s a m i n d - b e n d i n g l o g i c t o s a y a p e r s o n c a n c o m e i n t o t h e c o u n t r y t h r o u g h t h e ca l l . When a person comes to this country you produce documents that I am getting in here. I h a v e g o t – w e a r e u si n g I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y u s e – i s a p a s s p o rt . Ye s t h a t i s a l l w h a t y o u n e e d . T h a t yo u r p a p e r s a r e i n o rd e r. T h e re a s o n w h y t h e y h a d t o enter into the manner in which they did because they did not k n o w t h e y m u st b e i n – t h e y a r e i n t h e c o u n t r y. T h a t c a n b e t h e o n l y l o g i c a l c o n cl u si o n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d I m u st c o n f e s s I d o n o t r e c a l l s e e i n g 20 a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t t h a t cri m e h a d b e e n c o m m i t t e d . M R J U LY : N o , n o . ADV HULLEY SC: Of allowing people to unlawfully enter the c o u n t r y. I u n d e r st a n d a b o u t u n l a w f u l l y l e a vi n g t h e c o u n t r y. M R J U LY : N o . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A s p a rt o f t h e r e n d i t i o n . Page 205 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : S i r w e d i d n o t h a ve t o s a y t h a t . B u t w e k n e w t h a t y o u ca n n o t g e t i n t o t h e c o u n t r y b y a p h o n e c a l l . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o – s o i n e ff e ct o n t h e – o n t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t y o u g a t h e r e d d u ri n g t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s cl e a r t o y o u i s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g ? M R J U LY : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e e n t r y i n t o S o u t h A f ri c a . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B y t h e Zi m b a b w e a n s. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s i l l e g a l . M R J U LY : Wa s i l l e g a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – a n d I g u e s s o n ce t h e e n t r y w a s i l l e g a l t h e – m a y b e t h a t a l s o i n f l u e n ce d t h e i l l e g a l i t y o f l e a vi n g t h e c o u n t r y. M R J U LY : T h a t i s e x a ct l y t h e c a s e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Because if you are going to make your d e p a rt u r e f r o m S o u t h A f ri c a . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: L a w f u l y o u h a ve g o t t o re p o rt y o u r s e l f t o t h e a u t h o ri t i e s. M R J U LY : E x a ct l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 206 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 ADV HULLEY SC: re s p e ct f u l l y. There N o w o f c o u r s e t h e re i s a n d I s a y t h i s is nothing in the – in any of the i n f o r m a t i o n – a n y o f t h e st a t e m e n t s t h a t d e m o n st r a t e s t h a t t h e s o l e b a si s o n w h i c h t h e y o b t a i n e d e n t r y i n t o t h e c o u n t r y w a s o n t h e b a si s o f t h e p h o n e c a l l . Th e v a ri o u s st a t e m e n t s a s I u n d e r st a n d i t c o rr e ct m e i f I a m w r o n g – t h e v a r i o u s st a t e m e n t s a s I u n d e r st a n d i t a re d e a l i n g w i t h t h e q u e st i o n n o t o f w h e t h e r t h e p e r s o n h a s c o m m i t t e d t h e c ri m e o f u n l a w f u l l y e n t e ri n g i n t o t h e c o u n t r y b u t r a t h e r w i t h t h e 10 q u e st i o n o f t h e re n d i t i o n a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d – a n d t h e a s s a u l t s a n d so f o rt h . happens going out? So what happens here and what N o b o d y a ct u a l l y m a k e s t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e y d i d n o t p r e s e n t t h e i r p a s s p o rt s. M R J U LY : T h e y m a y – t h e f a ct t h a t w e d o n o t m a k e t h a t point does not mean that. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y t h e f a ct t h a t ? M R J U LY : T h e f a ct t h a t w e d o n o t m a k e t h a t p o i n t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t w e d i d n o t co n si d e r t h e f a ct t h a t y o u ca n n o t g e t i n t o a n o t h e r c o u n t r y b y m a ki n g a p h o n e c a l l . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I … … M R J U LY : We c o n si d e r e d t h a t i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k m a yb e M r H u l l e y’s p o i n t i s a sl i g h t l y d i ff e r e n t o n e n a m e l y y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e y – a ca l l w a s m a d e t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t , i s t h a t ri g h t ? M R J U LY : Ye s i t i s i n t h e r e p o rt . Page 207 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: And that after that call they were allowed to get in. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e q u e st i o n t o p u t i t d i ff e r e n t l y i s d o y o u kn o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a ct t h a t t h o se Z i m b a b w e a n s w e r e n o t i n p o s se s si o n o f t h e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t a t i o n t o e n t e r the country lawfully? M R J U LY : T h e l o g i c a l co n cl u si o n C h a i r i s b a s e d t h a t I d o n o t kn o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a ct t h a t t h e y d i d n o t h a v e b u t w h a t I 10 do know for them to get into the country it was because of a call. A n d I d o n o t u n d e r st a n d p e o p l e g e t t i n g i n t o a c o u n t r y b e ca u s e t h e y p h o n e d s o m e o n e e l s e . CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a t I u n d e r st a n d . Yo u s e e i t i s i m p o rt a n t t o m a k e a d i st i n ct i o n i f y o u d o n o t k n o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a ct . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: p a p e r s. Whether they did have the necessary Because of course you – you might recall the e vi d e n c e – t h e d e t a i l s o f t h e e vi d e n c e b e t t e r b e c a u s e i t m a y 20 w e l l b e t h a t e n t r y i n t o t h e c o u n t r y w a s n o t o n t h e b a si s o f t h e ca l l b u t t h e y d i d h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n . s a yi n g i t c o u l d b e . I a m j u st B u t f o r t h e m t o m a k e a rr a n g e m e n t s – c e rt a i n a r r a n g e m e n t s i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n n e ce s s a r y t o p h o n e a p a rt i c u l a r p e r s o n . S o – b u t o n c e y o u s a y a s y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a ct w h e t h e r t h e y h a d Page 208 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t m a k e s t h e d i st i n ct i o n i t c o u l d b e t h a t t h e y d i d n o t h a v e b u t i t co u l d b e t h a t t h e y h a d o r s o m e o f them had. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : C h a i r M a d i l o n g a e v e n g o e s f u rt h e r a n d t a l k a b o u t w h e n t h e y re t u r n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : O n t h e 8 N o ve m b e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I t i s n o t j u st t h e e n t r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : W h e n t h e y r e t u r n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : When they – they called him Madilonga so he s a y s. R i g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : S o h e a s si st e d t h e m a n d a l s o h e a s si st e d Maluleke to hand over these people to the Zimbabweans 20 w h e n t h e y w e r e o u t t h e si g h t o f t h e b o r d e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J U LY : S o i t i s n o t j u st a q u e st i o n o f … CHAIRPERSON: In that event if they did not have the d o cu m e n t a t i o n i t w o u l d n o t m e a n t h a t t h e b o r d e r a u t h o ri t i e s a ct u a l l y c o l l u d e d w i t h … Page 209 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : N o , n o . CHAIRPERSON: With either the Zimbabweans or General D r a m a t t o a c h i e v e t h e c r o s si n g o f t h e se p e o p l e f r o m S o u t h A f ri c a t o Z i m b a b w e w i t h o u t t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h e n e c e s s a r y d o cu m e n t a t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: If they did not have the documentation. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e ? 10 M R J U LY : T h a t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e b o r d e r a u t h o ri t i e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: T h e y w e re r e q u i r e d t o s a y p r o d u c e t h e n e ce s s a r y d o c u m e n t s. M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e s e p e o p l e i f t h e y n e ve rt h e l e s s c ro s s e d t h e – i n t o S o u t h A f ri c a w i t h o u t s u c h d o c u m e n t s a n d o u t o f S o u t h A f ri c a i n t o Zi m b a b w e w i t h o u t su c h d o c u m e n t s t h e r e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o b e s o m e c o o p e r a t i o n o f so m e ki n d 20 f ro m t h e b o rd e r a u t h o ri t i e s. M R J U LY : I a g r e e w i t h t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR J U LY : B e c a u se Madilonga re m e m b e r b o r d e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 210 of 255 is from that 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : H e w a s s o rt o f t h e g u y w h o a s s i st e d t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w I t o o k s o m e m i n u t e s. ADV HULLEY SC: Not at all. CHAIRPERSON: But we are at an end. I give you one minute to wrap up A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. S o e ff e ct i v e l y t h e – and the reference to the email with the photographs Mr Chair 10 i s a t Y 1 4 [ A ] t h a t i s E x h i b i t Y 1 4 [ A ] i t i s p a rt o f B u n d l e L E A 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: And it is at page 439. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: We c a n c o n si d e r i t s e p a r a t e l y. The – w h a t i s cl e a r h a vi n g r e g a r d t o – t o t h e d i ff e r e n t st a t e m e n t s t h a t w e r e i n t h e d o c k e t i t i s cl e a r t h a t a n d I a m t a l ki n g n o w about the rendition docket that the people who had i m p l i c a t e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i ya w e r e a . W h e r e n o t i n a g re e m e n t e v e n a l t h o u g h t h e y w e r e – 20 t h e y w e r e sp e a ki n g a b o u t i n s o m e i n st a n c e s t h e s a m e e v e n t i t w a s cl e a r t h e y w e r e s p e a ki n g a b o u t t h e s a m e e v e n t a n d a t t h e sa m e t i m e t h e y w e re p r e s e n t a t t h e same time and yet some mentioned that there was apparently that General Sibiya p a rt i ci p a n t i n t h e a s s a u l t . Page 211 of 255 was p re s e n t and a 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: Others mention that he was present. M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: B u t d i d n o t m e n t i o n t h a t h e p a rt i ci p a t e d in the assault and others did not even mention that he was present at all. M R J U LY : Ye s. not e n t e rt a i n even Which is the reason why Chair then we did the i s su e of assault. Because we c o n cl u d e d t h a t n o , n o w e d o n o t t h i n k t h a t w e c a n a g re e w i t h 10 a n yt h i n g h e r e l e t u s n o t – l e t u s l e a v e a s i f M r – G e n e r a l Sibiya was not there. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M R J U LY : So the assault thing is not – he was not charged for assault. CHAIRPERSON: Okay ADV HULLEY SC: And insofar as the… C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e l a st q u e st i o n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s t h a n k y o u . Mr Ngcukaitobi do you h a ve r e - e x a m i n a t i o n ? A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s C h a i r I w o n d e r. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u h a v e a n i d e a h o w m u ch t i m e y o u need? A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : H o w m u c h y o u w o u l d b e w i l l i n g t o g i v e me? Page 212 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Th e – t h e r e -e x a m i n a t i o n i s m e a n t t o b e f o r cl a ri f i c a t i o n . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : I i n t e n d o n l y t o cl a ri f y C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : I a m n o t g o i n g t o w a st e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y a l ri g h t . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 10 B u t I j u st w a n t t o k n o w t h e m a xi m u m end time. CHAIRPERSON: We l l I a m h o p i n g t h a t y o u w i l l n o t g o b e yo n d f i v e . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Is that fine? A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : I d e f i n i t e l y w i l l n o t g o b e y o n d f i v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o t h a t i s f i n e . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : T h a n k yo u . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u – you can do it f ro m t h e re I u n d e r st a n d i t i s n o t co m f o rt a b l e w h e n yo u a re t h e r e . 20 A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s I – i t i s d e f i n i t e l y n o t c o m f o rt a b l e w h e r e I a m st a n d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV N G C U K A I TO B I : So p e rh a p s I a cr o s s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e y w i l l sa n i t i s e . Page 213 of 255 should then move 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : M r Ju l y I w a n t t o st a rt b y – t h e r e h a s been a debate between you and the Chair around whether or not the finding that you came to about the defeating or o b st r u ct i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i ce w a s a l e g i t i m a t e o r n o t legitimate finding. I kn o w t h e co m m i s si o n d o e s n o t h a ve t o m a k e a d e ci si o n o n t h a t b u t w e h a v e t o t e st y o u r o w n a s s e s sm e n t . T h e d e f i n i t i o n a c c o rd i n g t o B a t c h e l [ ? ] a n d M i l t o n o f t h e c ri m e o f d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u st i c e i s t h e f o l l o w i n g . I t s a y: 10 “ D e f e a t i n g o r o b s t ru ct i n g t h e c o u r s e o f j u st i c e c o n si st s i n u n l a w f u l l y d o i n g a n a ct w h i c h i s i n t e n d e d t o d e f e a t o r o b st r u ct and which does defeat or o b st r u ct the due a d m i n i st r a t i o n o f j u st i c e . ” A n d t h e n i t c o n t i n u e s: “I t i s i m m a t e r i a l w h e t h e r t h e a l l e g e c o n d u ct h a s m e r e l y a t e n d e n c y t o d e f e a t o r o b st r u ct t h e c o u r s e o f j u st i c e o r i s even capable of defeating o r o b st r u ct i n g t h e c o u r s e o f j u st i c e . ” D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h a t p a rt i c u l a rl y o n t h e l a st 20 p a st t h a t t h e o n u s d o e s n o t h a v e t o – t h e r e s u l t d o e s n o t even have to be capable. M R J U LY : E x a ct l y. Ye s. I a g r e e – I a g re e w i t h t h a t . No I t h i n k t h a t i s e x a ct l y w h a t I h a v e b e e n s a yi n g t h a t y o u l o o k a t the intention. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : Ye s. Page 214 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : O f t h e p e r s o n – t h e o u t c o m e i s s o m e t h i n g e l s e . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : B u t a l s o , t h e q u e st i o n o f w h e t h e r y o u a r e e v e n ca p a b l e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : T h a n k yo u . Now I want to then go b a c k t o t h e n a t u r e o f y o u r e vi d e n c e . I only have five topics C h a i r. T h e f i r st o n e i s o n t h e i l l e g a l i t y o f t h e r e n d i t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 10 N o w m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e i s s u e o f t h e i l l e g a l i t y i s t h a t i f yo u l o o k a t b o t h r e p o rt s b o t h t h e J a n u a r y a n d t h e M a r c h re p o rt s o f M r K h u b a . I n b o t h o f t h o s e re p o rt s h e c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u si o n t h a t t h e r e n d i t i o n w a s illegal. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : E v e n i n t h e f i n a l r e p o rt o f M a r c h h e st i l l c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t r e n d i t i o n w a s i l l e g a l . M R J U LY : Ye s. E x c e p t t h a t h e s a y s o n l y o n e p e r s o n . A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : N o , n o I u n d e r st a n d t h a t b u t t h e re n d i t i o n i t s e l f a s a p r a ct i c e . 20 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : T h a t w a s u n d e rt a k e n w a s f o u n d t o b e illegal. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : T h e d i ff e r e n c e w a s w h e t h e r o r n o t M r D r a m a t a n d M r S i b i y a sh o u l d b e h e l d l i a b l e . Page 215 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV N G C U K A I TO B I : Yo u r a n a l y si s was that on the e vi d e n c e t h a t w a s b e f o r e h i m h e s h o u l d h a v e c o n cl u d e d t h a t t h e y w e r e a l so l i a b l e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : O n h i s v e r si o n c e rt a i n l y t h e s e c o n d version he found that they were not liable. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 10 Ye s. N o w t h e r e a so n s t h a t h e h a s ci t e d w h y t h e re n d i t i o n w a s a n u n l a w f u l r e n d i t i o n . I j u st w a n t t o s u m m a ri se t h e m . T h e y a r e c o n t a i n e d i f y o u w a n t t o h a ve a l o o k a t t h e m a t p a g e – i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt a t p a g e 4 7 7 t o 4 8 2 a n d i n t h e se c o n d r e p o rt a t p a g e 5 2 2 t o 5 – s o r r y t o 5 5 3 to 560. N o w I w a n t t o su m m a ri s e t h o s e r e a s o n s a n d s e e i f y o u a g re e w i t h t h e m . T h e r e a s o n h e sa i d t h o s e w e r e unlawful 1 . I s b e c a u s e t h i s w a s n o t a n e xt r a d i t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 20 2 . S o u t h A f ri c a n h a d a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e Z i m b a b w e a n g o ve r n m e n t i n r e l a t i o n t o i l l e g a l i m m i g r a n t s i n t h i s c o u n t r y. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 3 . T h e o ff i ci a l s o f H o m e A ff a i r s w e r e n o t i n vo l v e d . Page 216 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 4 . T h i s a m o u n t e d t o ki d n a p p i n g . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G C U K A I TO B I : 5. There was an attempt to hide what happened. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. N o w i n t h e f i r st r e p o rt , h e f o u n d t h a t t h e p e o p l e i n v o l v e d i n t h e se a ct i vi t i e s i n c l u d e d M r 10 Dramat and Mr Sibiya. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I n t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt , h e f o u n d i t was only Mr Maluleka. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w t h i s i s re a l l y t h e p o i n t o f y o u r c ri t i ci sm s. I t i s, w h o w a s i n v o l v e d ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w, i f y o u l o o k t h e n a t y o u r re p o rt . T h e r e a so n s w h y y o u s a i d M r D r a m a t w a s i n v o l v e d i s 20 c o n t a i n e d a t p a g e 1 7 2 . Yo u c a n l o o k a t yo u r o w n r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A t 1 7 2 , 1 7 3 , 1 7 4 a n d 1 7 5 . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s. . . j a , I a m j u st . . . i t i s ca l l e d E x h i b i t Y 8 , N k o si n a t h i P h i w a yi n ko s i N h l e k o . Page 217 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : J a . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o t h e r e a so n s w h y y o u c a m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n s t h a t M r D r a m a t w a s a l so i n v o l v e d , st a rt s a t 1 7 2 , 1 7 3 , 1 7 4 a n d 1 7 5 , c o rr e ct ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : F i r st r e a s o n , a n d t h i s w a s d e b a t e d w i t h t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r. T h e f i r s t re a so n t h a t yo u g i v e i s h i s k n o w l e d g e o f t h e p r e s e n ce , i n o t h e r w o r d s, t h e e n t r y i n t o t h e c o u n t r y. 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : And that is what you gave at 5 3 1 5 11 o f y o u r r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s t h e p h o n e c a l l . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : it is put to you that T h a t i s t h e f i r st r e a s o n . the phone call issue So when makes no a p p e a r a n c e i n y o u r r e p o rt t h a t i n f a ct i s n o t a c c u ra t e ? M R J U LY : H ’ m . 20 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h e s e c o n d r e a so n i s t h e 5 3 1 5 1 2 . T h e r e yo u r e f e r t o t h e s u c c e s s re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o h e k n o w s o f t h e i r p r e s e n c e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e p h o n e c a l l b u t Page 218 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 h e a l s o k n o w s o f t h e su c c e s s r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B o t h o f t h o se t w o , y o u t h e n s u m m a ri se a t 1 7 3 . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d y o u s a y t h a t i f h e kn o w s o f t h e p r e s e n c e a n d h e k n o w s o f t h e r e p o rt , h e m u st t a k e l i a b i l i t y. M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n , a t t h e f o l l o w i n g p a g e a t 10 173, you explain again that h e re c e i v e d communication d u ri n g a n d a f t e r t h e co m m i s si o n o f t h e r e n d i t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o i t i s n o t o n l y t h e e n t r y, i t i s a l s o a s a n d w h e n t h e re n d i t i o n i s o c c u r ri n g w h i c h w e h a v e n o w e st a b l i sh e d , on their own v e r si o n , it was an unlawful re n d i t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n t h e l a st . . . n o t , t h e l a st . T h e s e c o n d l a st re a s o n , i s w h e n h e s a i d h e co n g r a t u l a t e d 20 t h e m e m b e r s o f C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. And then the last one is t h e . . . a t 1 7 4 , w h e r e yo u s a y h e w r o t e a st a t e m e n t t o t h e a ct i n g N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r o f t h e P o l i c e . M R J U LY : H ’ m . Page 219 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d i n t h a t st a t e m e n t , h e a l s o confirmed his knowledge. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w, t h e s e f i v e e l e m e n t s, t h e y a l l a p p e a r o n o b j e ct i v e d o c u m e n t a t i o n , n o t n e c e s s a ri l y o n w o r d o f m o u t h , t h e s e a r e o b j e ct i v e d o c u m e n t s p r e s e n t e d t o y o u . I n r e l a t i o n t o M r S i b i y a , t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt i s t h a t y o u s a y M r S i b i y a sh o u l d h e l d l i a b l e . M R J U LY : J a . 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w h e r e i s w h e re t h e d i st i n ct i o n is which sometimes it felt as if it was being overlooked in y o u r c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n / e vi d e n c e -i n - c h i e f . M R J U LY : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s p u t t o yo u t h a t t h e r e i s n o e vi d e n c e t h a t M r S i b i y a w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e c ri m e s c e n e . M R J U LY : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e i s n o s u c h e vi d e n c e o r a t l e a st e v e n i f i t e xi s t , y o u d i d n o t t a k e i t i n t o a c c o u n t . Yo u r r e a s o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. M r Ju l y, I t h i n k y o u a r e n o t b u t there will be no record if you are nodding. M R J U LY : [ l a u g h s] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : [laughs] I n f a ct , C h a i r. c o m p l a i n s t h a t M r S e s o k o t e n d e d t o n o d . [ l a u g h s] M R J U LY : [ l a u g h s] Page 220 of 255 Mr July 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] S o i s h e f o l l o w i n g s u i t n o w ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : [ l a u g h s] M R J U LY : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w a n t t o r e p e a t yo u r a n s w e r t o t h e q u e st i o n . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w l e t m e r e p e a t t h e q u e st i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r r e p e a t t h e q u e st i o n . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. Remember that what... there w a s a d e b a t e a b o u t w h e r e e x a ct l y d o e s t h e l i a b i l i t y f r o m 10 Sibiya come in? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : O n e p o i n t t h a t w a s p u t t o yo u i s a b o u t h i s p r e s e n c e a t t h e cr i m e s c e n e . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV N G U C K A I TO B I SC: In other w o r d s, when the ki d n a p p i n g i s h a p p e n i n g , ri g h t ? M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w y o u r c a s e i s, y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e w a s p re s e n t o r n o t b e c a u se t h e e vi d e n c e o n t h a t 20 s c o r e i s c o n t r a d i c t o r y. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : But you did not take that into account. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : What you did take into account is Page 221 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 a t 1 7 5 . T h e s e a r e t h e r e a so n s y o u g a ve . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Yo u l o o ke d a t t h e r e p o rt s t o e st a b l i sh a p ri m a f a ci e ca s e . A n d t h e n y o u s a i d h e w a s h e a d o f TO M S U n i t . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : And that... this is where... it s a y s. . . S i b i y a st a t e d a s f o l l o w s: “ T h e re a l i t y o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t t h e o p e r a t i o n i n 10 q u e st i o n w a s c o n d u ct e d u n d e r t h e a u s p i c e s o f t h e D P C I n a t i o n a l h e a d o ff i ce a n d t h e y re q u e st e d t h e s e r v i ce s o f m y t e a m b e c a u s e o f t h e t r a i n i n g a n d c a p a c i t y. . . ” M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I SC: He himself acknowledges his knowledge. M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n h e sa y s. . . t h i s r e v e l a t i o n b y S i b i y a c o n f i rm s h i s k n o w l e d g e o f t h e o p e r a t i o n t h a t l e d t o 20 t h e r e n d i t i o n o f Zi m b a b w e a n n a t i o n a l s. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : H e p r o vi d e d To m ’s P e r s o n n e l t o a s si st t h e D P C I t o c a r r y o u t t h e r e n d i t i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w, d i d y o u n e e d a n yt h i n g m o r e Page 222 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h a n h i s o w n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f h i s k n o w l e d g e a n d t h e f a ct that he seconded employees? M R J U LY : N o . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. Now if we sum-up where we a r e o n t h i s e v i d e n c e i s t h a t y o u a r e f a ce d w i t h o b j e ct i v e e vi d e n c e of the involvement of Mr Dramat. e vi d e n c e o f t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f M r S i b i y a . O b j e ct i ve And that is why y o u h a v e c o m e t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t t h e y s h o u l d f a c e t h e wrap. 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d n o n e o f t h e se a r e a ct u a l l y d i s p u t e d , e v e n i n y o u r e vi d e n c e -i n - ch i e f o f w h a t h a s b e e n put to you. N o w, i n y o u r r e p o rt , h o w i s t h i s i s s u e t h e n d e a l t with? I want to move then Mr Chair to the second element of m y r e -e x a m i n a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : W h i c h i s h o w t h e w ri t e r s o f t h e s e c o n d re p o rt d e a l w i t h t h e s e k e y e l e m e n t s o f t h e l i a b i l i t y a n d t h i s a g a i n i s c o n t a i n e d i n yo u r r e p o rt f r o m p a g e 1 4 7 . 20 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o t h e f i r st t h i n g t h e y d o , w h i c h i s o n p a g e 1 4 7 a t t h e t o p . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . p a g e 3 4 a t t h e b o t t o m . T h e f i r st thing they do is t a m p e ri n g with Page 223 of 255 their r e co r d e r of the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 st a t e m e n t o f M r M a h l o n g w a . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : R e m e m b e r t h a t t h e y f i r st r e c o r d e d t h e st a t e m e n t i n f u l l ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n e xt t h i n g t h e y d o , t h e y c u t o u t , t h a t cl u m s y c u t t i n g o u t o f p a s sa g e s f r o m t h a t st a t e m e n t . M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : And that you say at 147 and 148. S o t h e p o rt i o n s t h a t a r e cu t out are the p o rt i o n s t h a t implicate Mr Sibiya and Mr Dramat. M R J U LY : A n d D r a m a t . Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : W h i c h w e h a ve s h o w n o n t h e o b j e ct i ve e vi d e n c e , t h a t i s h o w yo u c o n cl u d e d . M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n e xt i s a t 1 4 9 . I f yo u c o m p a r e o n t h e l e f t a n d t h e ri g h t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. 20 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . y o u w i l l s e e p r e ci s e l y w h a t h a s been cut out. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h e n e xt i s a t 1 5 0 o n t h e ri g h t . Yo u s e e t h e r e , w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e i s s u e o f t h e e m a i l s, i t s a y s o n t h e l e f t , w h i c h i s t h e o ri g i n a l re p o rt , i t s a y s: Page 224 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 “ T h e e m a i l s w e r e s e n t t o t h e PA o f D r a m a t , P h u m l a , Zimbabwe Police and members of C ri m e Intelligence...” M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B u t i n t h e p o rt i o n t h a t h a s n o w b e e n c u t o u t , t h e cl u m s y c u t t i n g o u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : W h a t t h e y s a y i s h e se n t t h e e m a i l t o t h e Zi m b a b w e a n P o l i c e . 10 T h e p e r so n t h a t i s o m i t t e d t h e r e i s t h e PA o f M r D r a m a t . M R J U LY : T h e PA , y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B u t a s a n o b j e ct i v e f a ct , t h a t e m a i l w a s s e n t t o t h e PA o f M r D r a m a t . M R J U LY : T h e PA , y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n t h e s a m e a p p e a r s i n t h e f o l l o w i n g se ct i o n w h e r e u n d e r t h e u n d e rl i n e d p o rt i o n s, y o u s a y: “ T h e l e t t e r w a s g e n e r a t e d t h e sa m e d a y i n d i c a t i n g i n A u g u st 2 0 1 3 . 20 G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d G e n e ra l D r a m a t went to Zimbabwe...” I f y o u c o m p a r e t h a t w i t h t h e cl u m s y c u t t i n g o u t , t h e c u t t i n g o u t . I t s a y s: “ T h i s l e t t e r w a s g e n e r a t e d t h e s a m e d a y, i n d i ca t i n g the t ri p to Zi m b a b w e , to cooperation...” Page 225 of 255 discuss matters of 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Yo u se e t h e re t h e c u t t i n g o u t i s Sibiya and Mr Dramat. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I a m s o s o r r y M r C h a i r. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A l ri g h t . S o r r y. [ l a u g h s] ADV HULLEY SC: O b vi o u sl y. . . so rr y, I j u st w a n t t o r a i s e , n o t a n o b j e ct i o n p e r s e b u t a s I u n d e r st a n d i t , m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d o u g h t t o b e r e - e x a m i n e , i t s h o u l d b e t o s e e k cl a r i t y. I 10 a m n o t su r e i f h e i s se e ki n g cl a ri t y o r m e r e l y r e a d i n g a n d s u m m a ri si n g w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e r e p o rt o f We r k s m a n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . O k a y. We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h a n k y o u . I w i l l t a k e t h a t u p . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : No, I will take the statement . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, t h e r e p o rt . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : ...into account. Now the same appears at page 151, 152, 153, 154. It goes on and on until 20 t h e l a st i s a t 1 5 8 . B u t t h e t h e m e i s t h e s a m e , i s i t n o t ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s t a ki n g o u t t h e e vi d e n c e i n t h e st a t e m e n t a n d t h e n p u t t i n g t h e e vi d e n ce t h a t r e m o v e s t h o se re f e r e n c e s. S o t h a t i s w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i n y o u r r e p o rt ? M R J U LY : Ye s, t h a t i s e x a ct l y ri g h t . Page 226 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : C h a i r, c a n I j u st a d d ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, p l e a s e . M R J U LY : A n d s a y, b e f o r e w e w e re i n st r u ct e d i n t h e m a i n i n st r u ct i o n i n t h e l e g a l s e n s e n o t b e i n g t a i n t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja . . . b u t , j a . M R J U LY : N o t b e i n g t o l d w h a t t o d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. 10 M R J U LY : T h a t h a s t o b e v e r y cl e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e g i v e n t h e b ri e f . M R J U LY : B e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n e d i s t h a t , t h e r e w e r e . . . n o t k n o w n t o u s. Shuman... I t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e p i c k e d u p n o w. H e rm a n n ( ? ) S u zm a n ( ? ) from . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] p r o d u c e d a si m i l a r r e p o rt . We d o n o t k n o w f o r w h a t p u r p o s e b u t i t i s a n a r t i cl e w h i c h w a s w ri t t e n o n t h e 2 6 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . We w e r e i n st r u ct e d o n t h e 2 3 r d o f A p ri l . I f yo u l o o k C h a i r i n t h a t r e p o rt , i t d o e s e x a ct l y t h e s a m e 20 thing that we did but at the time we did not know that there w a s s u ch a n a rt i cl e . CHAIRPERSON: Is that r e p o rt in . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : I t i s n o t i n t h e b u n d l e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Page 227 of 255 the bundle or is it 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : I t i s n o t i n t h e b u n d l e C h a i r. I t i s so m e t h i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : . . . t h a t w e j u st i n d u e c o u r se g o t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R J U LY : A n d i t i s a l i n k a n d i t t a l k s e x a ct l y a b o u t t h e t w o re p o rt s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 CHAIRPERSON: If it is something you would like to make a v a i l a b l e t o t h e C o m m i s si o n , yo u m a y d o s o , e i t h e r n o w through your counsel or later on if you can send it to the e vi d e n c e l e a d e r. M R J U LY : Ye s, w e w i l l d o so . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. c a n f u rt h e r g o t o m y t h i r d t o p i c. If we We h a v e n o w s e e n t h e i l l e g a l i t y o f t h e r e n d i t i o n a n d t h e cu t t i n g o u t o f n a m e s i n t h e s o - c a l l e d s e c o n d re p o rt . 20 M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : We t h e n c o m e t o t h e i s s u e . R e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a d i s c u s si o n t h a t y o u h a d w i t h t h e C h a i r a n d t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r a b o u t w h e t h e r o r n o t t h i s w a s c o n se q u e n t i a l a t a l l , t h e f a ct t h a t t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt re m o v e d information from the f i r st report. Page 228 of 255 Th e r e was even a 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s u g g e st i o n t h a t t h e r e p o rt i t s e l f i s n o t e v i d e n c e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : O f c o u r se , w e n e e d t o cl a ri f y t h i s a l i t t l e b i t . M y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t a re p o rt m a y b e e vi d e n c e i f i t re c o r d s t h e o b s e r va t i o n s o f t h e w ri t e r f ro m h i s o w n p e r s o n a l i n t e r a ct i o n s. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : But it may also contain secondary e vi d e n c e , w h i c h i s s o m e t i m e s ca l l e d h e a r s a y. 10 M R J U LY : H e a r s a y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : When they recording something e l s e t h a t w a s s a i d t o t h i s. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : So it is not as if a piece of paper t h a t c o n t a i n s t h e r e p o rt i s a l w a y s n o t e vi d e n c e . M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : G o o d . M R J U LY : I a g r e e . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 20 N o w o n . . . i n re l a t i o n t o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r r e p o rt , i t s si g n i f i c a n ce i s i n f a ct . . . y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t i t w a s p u t t o y o u t h a t yo u w e r e t o l d b y M r B a l o yi o r A d v o c a t e B a l o yi t h a t i n g e n e r a l w e d o n o t l o o k i n t o t h e se I P I D r e p o rt s. M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B u t w h a t I w a n t yo u t o e x p l a i n t o Page 229 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e C h a i r i s t h e s p e ci f i ci t y o f t h i s p a rt i cu l a r r e p o rt h o w i t h a p p e n e d . N o w I w a n t t o sh o w y o u w h e r e i t i s d e a l t w i t h . I t i s i n t h e e vi d e n ce o f M r M o si n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . w h o t e s t i f i e d b e f o re y o u . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A t . . . t h e p a rt i c u l a r p a r a g r a p h s a r e at page 982. T h e y st a rt a t 9 8 2 , 9 8 3 , 9 8 4 . I want to go t h r o u g h t h o se p a r a g r a p h s a b o u t w h a t h e s a i d i n r e l a t i o n t o 10 t h i s r e p o rt a n d w h y o n t h e s e f a ct s t h i s w a s a c o n s e q u e n t i a l re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. 9 8 2 . . . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 982. I t i s m a r k e d a s Vo l u m e 2 . S o I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t m a k e s a n y d i ff e r e n c e t o y o u ? B u t i t i s t h e t r a n s cri p t o f y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h M r M o si n g . M R J U LY : M r M o si n g . H ’ m . CHAIRPERSON: Is it on the same bundle? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, i t i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: In the same bundle? 20 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . t h e s a m e b u n d l e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n i f y o u t e l l m e t h e ri g h t n u m b e r. R i g h t at the top of that page. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, t h e n u m b e r a t t h e t o p i s Y8NPN0982. CHAIRPERSON: 0982? Page 230 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 8 2 . Ye s, C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, that means it is page 982. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: a m h a vi n g . No, it will not be in the same bundle that I Pardon me. D o y o u t h i n k b y l i st e n i n g a n d j u st n o t i n g w h e re i t i s i n t h e b u n d l e , I s h o u l d b e a b l e t o f i n d i t ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I n d e e d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 10 A n d I a l s o h o p e t o d o t h i s p a rt q u i t e q u i c kl y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. P ro c e e d , j a . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, t h a n k y o u . N o w t h e f i r st t h i n g t h a t M s M o si n g s a y s b e c a u se h e , i n t h i s p o rt i o n , h e a s k e d s p e ci f i c a l l y w h y w a s t h i s r e p o rt i m p o rt a n t a n d w h y w e r e t h e a l t e r a t i o n s co n s e q u e n t i a l . T h a t w a s y o u r q u e st i o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV N G U C K A I TO B I SC: But for him, why was this i m p o rt a n t , t h i s re p o rt i m p o rt a n t . H e s a y s: “Ye s, t h e y re c o m m e n d . . . ” 20 N o w h e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o f t h e J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 re p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : “. . . b u t I a m s a yi n g o u r r o l e i n t h e m a t t e r. . . w e m a d e i t cl e a r t o t h e m . . . ” Page 231 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 I n o t h e r w o r d s, t h e y m a d e . . . M o si n g f r o m t h e N PA si d e , t h e y m a d e i t cl e a r t o K h u b a f ro m I P I D si d e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : “. . . t h a t t h i s r e p o r t i s n o t g i v e n t o m e s o t h a t I ca n make a d e ci si o n . We have submitted it to the re l e v a n t D P P o ff i c e w h o t o o k i t a n d w e w e r e m e re l y g u i d i n g t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d a s s i st i n g t h e m . said, 10 we had continuous d i s c u s si o n s with As I the i n v e st i g a t i o n t e a m . . . ” S o a t n o st a g e d i d h e d i s a g r e e , r e a l l y, a s t o w h a t w a s happening. S o t h e f i r st t h i n g I w a n t t o p u t t o y o u t h e r e f o r y o u r c o m m e n t i s t h a t M r K h u b a k n o w s t h a t t h i s r e p o rt i s b e i n g p r e p a r e d f o r su b m i s si o n t o t h e D P P. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s n o t a re p o rt t h a t i s b e i n g p r e p a re d i n o r d e r t o b e b y t h e w a y. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 20 What did the DPP do about it? T h i s i s. . . a n d t h e n h e c o n t i n u e s. H e s a y s: “I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a l o t o f p re s s u r e a s w e l l a s t o t e r m i n a t e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t o m o v e o ve r t o a r re st . We b a si c a l l y h a d t o s a y m a k e y o u r i n v e st i g a t i o n c o m p l e t e f i r st . M a k e s u r e y o u h a ve g o t a l l t h e e vi d e n c e w h i c h , a t l e a st , i n d i ca t e s a p r i m a f a ci e c a s e Page 232 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 s o t h a t a p r o s e cu t o r c a n t a k e i t f o r w a rd a n d a t l e a st i s a s s u r e d o f g e t t i n g a c o n vi ct i o n . . . ” M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : D o yo u w a n t t o c o m m e n t o n t h i s? M R J U LY : C h a i r, w h a t i s i m p o rt a n t a b o u t t h a t i s. Khuba cl a i m s t h a t t h e f i r st r e p o rt w a s n o t t h e f i n a l r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : But he was there in February to d e m a n d t h e a rr e st . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : O n t h e b a si s o f t h a t r e p o rt . So t h a t i s v e r y cri t i c a l b e c a u se yo u ca n n o t d e m a n d a r r e st o n t h e b a si s o f t h e s o - c a l l e d p r o vi si o n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d o r/ o r p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o rt o r a d r a f t e d r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : following page, at 984. 20 Good. N o w i f yo u l o o k a t t h e [ I n d i st i n ct ] c o n t i n u e s g i v e n y o u t h e e vi d e n c e . H e s a y s: “B a s e d o n t h i s r e p o rt w h i c h w e u n d e r st o o d t o b e t h e f i n a l r e p o rt w i t h t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n b e i n g f i n a l . A s f a r a s w e w e re c o n c e r n e d , t h e m a t t e r w a s n o w re a d y t o b e su b m i t t e d t o a p r o s e c u t o r t o m a k e a d e ci si o n o n w h e t h e r t o a p r o s e c u t o r a n yo n e o r n o t . . . ” Page 233 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 B i l l y M o e l e t si a n d m y se l f d r a f t e d a m e m o ra n d u m t o t h e D e p u t y N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o s e c u t i o n s, A d v o c a t e Ji b a , a t t a c h i n g . . . l e t m e j u st s a y, g e t t o t h a t r e p o rt f i r st o f all. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n y o u a s k: “Yo u p re p a re d the N a t i o n a l D i re ct o r ? memorandum to the Deputy A n d I t h i n k yo u w e r e l o o ki n g f o r it...” 10 A n d t h e n h e c o n t i n u e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o w e k n o w t w o t h i n g s a b o u t w h a t M r M o si n g t o l d y o u . One is that Mr Khuba was told that we n e e d t h i s re p o rt s o t h a t w e c a n a ct o n i t . Number two. Mr Khuba also knows that once I submit m y r e p o rt , a d e ci s i o n w o u l d b e m a d e b a s e d o n i t . A s a f a ct , w h a t w e kn o w i s t h a t t h e N PA p r e p a re d a m e m o r a n d u m b a se d o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a n d t h e f i n d i n g s a n d t h e a s s e s sm e n t s o f t h e e vi d e n c e o f t h e re p o rt . 20 S o t h e i d e a , s o m e h o w, t h a t t h i s re p o rt c a n j u st b e p r e p a re d f o r f u n i s n o t f o u n d i n r e l a t i o n t o w h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e a n d M r K h u b a i s p u t d i r e ct l y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] a s k n o w i n g f u l l w e l l w h a t w i l l h a p p e n t o h i s r e p o rt . M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w. . . Page 234 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : So now that is in relation to Mr K h u b a . I w a n t t o m o v e o n M r C h a i r t o t h e f o u rt h t o p i c. N o w we have dealt with the rendition and the reasons you came to the conclusion that Mr Sibiya and Mr D ra m a t were involved. A n d t h e r e a s o n y o u c ri t i ci s e d , i t c o m e s t h e c u t t i n g o u t a n d t h e f a ct t h a t , i n f a ct , t h e f i r st r e p o rt w a s r e g a r d e d , e v e n b y M r K h u b a i n d i s c u s si o n w i t h M r M o s i n g a s f i n a l . 10 I n f a ct , t h e y a ct e d u p o n i t . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o w e h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t p a rt . B u t y o u t h e n c o n t i n u e t o sa y t h a t Mr M cB ri d e , Mr S e s o k o a n d Mr K h u b a sh o u l d a l s o t a k e r e sp o n si b i l i t y f o r t h a t . N o w t h e i r r e sp o n si b i l i t y, a s I u n d e r st a n d i t , i s n o t i n re l a t i o n t o t h e r e n d i t i o n p e r s e . But it is in relation to the I P I D r e p o rt . M R J U LY : T h e I P I D , y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 20 So first point... we have already m a d e t h a t p o i n t , i s t h a t t h e I P I D r e p o rt w a s c o n se q u e n t i a l b e ca u s e i t w a s t h e b a si s o n w h i ch a p r o se c u t o ri a l d e ci si o n w a s t a ke n . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : ignored it. I t i s n o t a s i f t h e p r o s e cu t o r s A s a f a ct , t h e y l o o k e d a t i t a n d t h e y b a s e d t h e i r Page 235 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 m e m o ra n d u m o n i t . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h e s e v e n t h t h i n g i s, M r S e s o ko . . . I re m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e i s t h i s w h o l e t h i n g a b o u t w h a t e x a ct l y w a s M r S e s o k o ’s r o l e . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w I w a n t t o t a k e y o u t o e vi d e n ce i n r e l a t i o n t o Mr K h u b a . What Mr Khuba told you. Yo u re m e m b e r t h a t q u e st i o n t h a t M r K h u b a . . . I w a n t t o f i n d t h e 10 K h u b a t e st i m o n y a b o u t h o w h e p u t t h i s w h o l e t h i n g t o y o u . Ye s, I h a v e g o t t h i s. S o i t i s. . . i t i s c a l l e d h e r e Vo l u m e 3. M R J U LY : W h a t i s t h e n u m b e r t h e r e ? W h a t . . . ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s 2 2 9 1 , t h e p o rt i o n I w a n t t o re f e r y o u t o . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w l o o k a t t h e e x p l a n a t i o n t h a t i s g i v e n t o y o u b y M r K h u b a . A n d I k n o w t h a t yo u r e vi d e n c e i s that his explanation subsequently changes et cetera but let 20 u s l o o k a t w h a t h e s a i d a t t h e i n t e r vi e w. S o w e k n o w t h a t M o si n g h a s t o l d y o u t h i s i s a v e r y i m p o rt a n t r e p o rt . I n f a ct , w e t o o k a p r o s e cu t o ri a l d e ci si o n b a se d o n i t . M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : 2 2 9 1 , i n t h e m i d d l e a t 1 5 . 1 5 i s o n Page 236 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h e ri g h t . I t i s l i n e 1 5 a n d i t h a s g o t M cB ri d e . this is where he s u m m a ri s e s. Yo u have H e sa y s. . . asked him a q u e st i o n : “I f M r M c B ri d e h a d n o t a r ri v e d , w o u l d y o u h a v e changed it?” H e s a y s: “I f M r M c B ri d e d i d n o t j o i n , w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n changed? M y vi e w w i t h o u t e v e n b e i n g c o n v i n c e d b y Sesoko, I would not have changed it...” 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : This is Khuba telling you that his vi e w w o u l d n o t h a v e c h a n g e d i t . M r M cB ri d e ’s p r e s e n c e h a d i n f l u e n c e d t h e c h a n g e . A n d t h e n h e c o n t i n u e s: “B e c a u s e m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h at w h e n w e d e a l w i t h such people, they are very senior and to get a little t h i n g w h e re y o u c a n p o i n t f i n g e r s a t t h e m , i s n o t . . . b e ca u s e i t m e a n s y o u w i l l n o t g e t a n yt h i n g . . . ” N o w t h e s e n i o r p e o p l e h e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t h e r e i s M r Dramat and Mr Sibiya. 20 He said I cannot accuse senior p e o p l e w i t h o u t e v i d e n ce b u t h e r e I w a s so c o n f i d e n t t h a t I could accuse them. A t p a g e 2 2 9 2 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: M r C h a i r, s o r r y. I think we have a ct u a l l y. . . i t h a s g o t t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e I n e e d t o n o w o b j e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Page 237 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V H U L L E Y S C : W h a t si m p l e b e e n p u t i s a s e ri e s o f . . . n o t only of what the information a ct u a l l y co n t a i n e d , the d o cu m e n t i s, b u t a l s o m y l e a r n e d f ri e n d ’s i n t e r p r e t a t i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. No, I was going to sa y Mr N g u c k a i t o b i , p u t q u e st i o n s t o t h e w i t n e s s t o cl a ri f y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Let us go b a c k t o t h e l a st q u e st i o n b e c a u s e t h a t s e e m s t o b e t h e o n e t h a t i s c a u si n g t h e c o n c e r n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : h a ve pointed a n s w e r s. out to L e t u s re p l y t h a t q u e st i o n . you T h e q u e st i o n i s: w a s n o t f o r M r M cB ri d e ? ” the p o rt i o n w h e re Mr So I Khuba “What would have happened if it A n d b e a r i n g i n m i n d t h i s a n s w e r, w h a t i s yo u r a n s w e r ? M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, y o u c a n p u t i n y o u r o w n w o rd s, n o t i n m i n e . 20 M R J U LY : C h a i r, yo u w i l l r e c a l l I d i d s a y t h i s w i t h o u t e v e n l o o ki n g a t t h e r e c o r d t h a t I d i d a s k Mr K h u b a w o u l d h e h a v e c h a n g e d t h e r e p o rt a n d h e s a i d n o h e w o u l d n o t h a v e changed it. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d w a s t h a t e vi d e n c e t h a t h e g a ve y o u a t t h e i n t e r vi e w ? Page 238 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s, i t w a s t h e e vi d e n ce t h a t h e g a v e a t t h e i n t e r vi e w o f t h e 1 3 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 5 . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w, d o y o u r e m e m b e r a l s o t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e q u e st i o n a s t o h o w, i n f a ct , t h e c h a n g e s w e r e made? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w t h i s i s d e a l t w i t h a t 2 2 9 4 . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A t 2 2 9 4 , a f t e r l i n e 1 5 , t h i s i s w h e r e 10 h e e x p l a i n s h o w t h e ch a n g e s h a p p e n e d . H e s a y s: “ T h e r e l e v a n t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] H e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t M r M c B ri d e : “Then the progress which I was doing on the report i t s e l f , I w a s o n l y a d d i n g st u ff . me. I w a s a d d i n g t h i n g s. H e w a s si t t i n g n e xt t o I was doing thing but w h e t h e r t h a t p a rt w a s c u t o u t b y h i m o r b y m e , I w i l l n o t s a y b u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r r e m o vi n g i t . . . ” A n d h e s a y s, “ d e l e t i n g i t ”. A n d t h e n h e s a y s: “No, no, no. 20 I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h i n ki n g t o s a y I a m d e l e t i n g t h i s p a rt b e ca u s e I h a d n o t h i n g t o b e n e f i t b y it. I n f a ct , i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e m a d e m e f e e l b a d t o h a ve i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d t o m a k e m e h a v e sl e e p l e s s n i g h t s, a n d y e t , n o t a l l t h e t h i n g s a r e g o i n g into that. B u t t h e w a y w e w o r k e d o n t h a t r e p o rt , I e m a i l e d i t t o M r S e s o ko . I do not know how Mr Page 239 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 S e s o k o d i sp a t c h e d i t t o h i m . . . ” M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Yo u r e m e m b e r ? M R J U LY : Ye s, M r S e s o k o t h e n co n f i rm s t h a t i n d a t e , o n t h e 4th of March 2014, he received the email from Khuba, he m a d e a c o p y a n d t h e n h e g a v e i t t o M c B ri d e . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, b u t i n re l a t i o n t o t h e . . . w h e r e i n t h e ch a n g e s w e r e m a d e . . . r e m e m b e r, t h a t t h e a n s w e r y o u h a d g i v e n i n y o u r e vi d e n c e e a rl i e r w a s t h a t M r K h u b a h i m se l f 10 told you that he did not kn o w these changes were . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : No, no, no. He did. H e s a i d h e d i d n o t k n o w. T h e o n l y p a rt t h a t h e m a d e m e n t i o n o f . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] d e l e t i o n , he does not know about that. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : you. Ye s, a l ri g h t . I a m n o w i n t o m y l a st t o p i c. B u t . . . C h a i r, t h a n k Yo u w i l l b e v e r y p l e a s e d . [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. I a m p l e a se d . [ l a u g h s] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : [ l a u g h s] N o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Thank you. T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. N o w, y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t . . . I w a n t t o co m e b a c k n o w t o t h e s u m m a r y o f h o w y o u c o n cl u d e d t h a t a c a s e h a d b e e n m a d e f o r d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d o f j u st i c e . N o w w e k n o w a s a f a ct w h a t t h e N PA d i d w i t h y o u r r e p o rt b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t f ro m M r Page 240 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Mosing. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. N o w, m y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h i s. . . w h a t w a s. . . w h a t yo u w e r e c ri t i ci s e d a b o u t i s t h a t i n y o u r r e p o rt y o u d i d n o t m e n t i o n t h e r e g u l a t i o n s, t h e a ct a n d t h e S t a n d a r d O p e ra t i n g P r o c e d u r e s . C a n I a s k yo u t o l o o k a t your own terms of re f e r e n c e ? I mean, because my u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t y o u a p p o i n t e d u n d e r sp e ci f i c t e r m s o f re f e r e n c e . 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : W h i c h i s a t p a g e 11 . . . s o r r y. I t h i n k i t i s 11 8 i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n . N o , o n e , o n e . . . y e s, 11 8 at the top. M R J U LY : Ye s. Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e r e a r e f i v e i t e m s. M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d w e r e y o u a s k e d a n yt h i n g t h e re t o l o o k a t re g u l a t i o n s, st a n d a r d o p e ra t i n g p r o c e d u r e s ? M R J U LY : N o . 20 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d d i d y o u a n s w e r t h o s e t e r m s o f re f e r e n c e ? M R J U LY : Ye s, w e d i d . I n f a ct , w e d i d l o o k a t a l l t h e s e i s s u e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, y e s, y e s. M R J U LY : Ye s. Page 241 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S o t h e m e r e f a ct t h a t t h e y a r e n o t e x p r e s sl y r e f e r e n c e d , d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t y o u d i d n o t l o o k a t it? M R J U LY : N o , n o , n o . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d t h e n i n s u m , w h a t w e re t h e re a s o n s w h y y o u b e l i e ve d t h a t a p r i m a f a ci e , o n t h e b a si s o f w h a t w e h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e d e f i n i t i o n u n d e r. . . i n Mi l t o n a n d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] , w h a t w e re t h e r e a so n s f o r t h e c o n cl u s i o n s y o u came to? 10 M R J U LY : Ye s. C h a i r, l i k e i t w a s i n d i c a t e d . I t st a n d s w i t h t h e . . . w h a t M r N g u c k a i t o b i r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e cl u m s y d e l e t i o n of the information. T h e se c o n d o n e i s, i t st a n d s w i t h t h e v a ri o u s r e a s o n s, e x c u se s t h a t a r e b e e n g i v e n a s t o w h y t h e r e p o rt w a s changed. One. M r M c B ri d e st a rt b y s a yi n g h e d o e s n o t k n o w a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e r e p o rt b u t t h e r e i s a m p l e e vi d e n c e t o d e m o n st r a t e t h a t h e kn o w s a b o u t t h e r e p o rt . S o h i s d e n i a l o f k n o w l e d g e o f t h e r e p o rt . . . h e s a y s, “A l l 20 what I did was to do grammatical e r r o r s. I changed g r a m m a t i c a l m i st a k e s f r o m t h e r e p o rt ”. B u t w e k n o w, K h u b a d o e s s a y, w h e n w e m e t w i t h h i m . “I f t h e re i s a n y p e r so n w h o re a d t h a t re p o rt e xt e n si v e l y i s M r M c B ri d e . A n d w e k n o w t h a t t h a t r e p o rt w a s m a d e t o h i m . Page 242 of 255 It is 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 confirmed by Sesoko. I t i s co n f i r m e d b y K h u b a t h a t h e d i d email. He did email. A n d so t h e r e i s a l s o a n o t h e r i s s u e . d e l i b e r a t e l y i g n o r e d t h e r e g u l a t i o n s. That you ignore, Yo u i g n o r e d t h e S O P w h i c h i s t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P ro c e d u re . very cl e a r C h a i r, the head of B e ca u s e i t i s i n v e st i g a t i o n s is d i re ct o r i n v e st i g a t i o n s. T h e o n l y p e o p l e , t w o p e o p l e w h o s i g n e d t h e r e p o rt . . . i n t h e a b s e n c e o f t h e d i r e ct o r i n v e st i g a t i o n s, i t w o u l d b e t h e 10 p r o vi n ci a l h e a d . K h u b a si g n e d a s t h e p ro v i n ci a l h e a d o n t h e re p o rt . B u t i f y o u l o o k a t t h e w i t n e s s st a t e m e n t s t h a t h e t o o k a n d h e si g n e d . . . o r h e co m m i s si o n e d , h e si g n s a s a D i r e ct o r I n v e st i g a t i o n s, ri g h t . So there was no role for Sesoko at all. t h e y c o m e h e re . It is a lie. And They tell you that Sesoko was Head of I n v e st i g a t i o n w h e n S e s o k o w a s a P ro g r a m M a n a g e r. I f y o u g o t o S O P ’s, i t s e t s o u t w h a t a r e t h e f u n ct i o n s o f the 20 executive d i re ct o r. p r o g r a m m e m a n a g e r. What a re the f u n ct i o n s of the Yo u w i l l n o t s e e a n y a p p r o v a l o f t h e re p o rt . T h e l e g i sl a t o r d e c i d e d t o cr e a t e i n d e p e n d e n c e w i t h i n t h e IPID. Th e y a r e p r o t e ct i n g . . . t h e y w e r e p ro t e ct i v e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i n s o . . . su c h t h a t , t h e y e x cl u d e t h e e x e c u t i ve d i re ct o r b e c a u se t h e y d o n o t w a n t t h e e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r t o Page 243 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 i n f l u e n c e t h e d e ci si o n . O n w h a t b a si s d o y o u si g n a n i n ve st i g a t i ve r e p o rt w h e n y o u d o n o t e v e n c o n d u ct t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n ? I t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n se . A n d so . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : re m e m b e r that one of Ja. the T h i r d l a st q u e st i o n . cri t i ci s m s a g a i n st Yo u the firm, We r k sm a n s, i s, a c c o r d i n g t o M r M cB ri d e t h a t y o u c a n n o t a s a m i n i st e r a s k a p r i va t e l a w f i rm t o i n ve st i g a t e i n d e p e n d e n t o r g a n o f st a t e . W h a t i s y o u r co m m e n t ? 10 M R J U LY : Yo u s e e , C h a i r. I f o r g i v e M r M c B ri d e . He is not a l a w y e r. B u t I h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h w h e n t h o s e t h i n g s h a ve b e e n s a i d , l e d b y a l a w y e r, t h e n t h e y a r e n o t ch a l l e n g e d . B e c a u s e t h e re a r e t w o b r a n c h e s o f l a w. Yo u h a v e g o t t h e p u b l i c l a w. Yo u h a v e g o t t h e p ri v a t e l a w. B o t h l a w s, t h e b r a n c h e s o f l a w, t h e y h a v e g o t s u b - b r a n c h e s. T h o s e s u b -b r a n c h e s w o u l d b e , y o u h a v e g o t ci vi l a n d c ri m i n a l . A n d e m p l o ym e n t i s s u e s f a l l s u n d e r ci vi l . So when t h e m i n i st e r c o m e s t o m e . . . I a m a l a b o u r l a w y e r a n d t h a t i s a l l t h a t I k n o w i s l a b o u r l a w. 20 So when employee...” he co m e s to me and s a y, “ H e re is my Yo u m u st r e c a l l C h a i r t h a t M c B ri d e w a s a n e m p l o y e e o f I P I D a n d a c c o u n t a b l e t o t h e m i n i st e r. A n d t h e c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt d o e s a ct u a l l y sa y t h a t , t h a t h e i s a c c o u n t a b l e t o t h e m i n i st e r a n d a c c o u n t a b i l i t y s h o u l d n o t b e e q u a t e d t o i n t e rf e re n c e . Page 244 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 W h e n h e h a s t o a c c o u n t t o t h e m i n i st e r, h o w d o e s t h e m i n i st e r take a d e ci si o n to d i s ci p l i n e McBride without s a t i sf yi n g h i m se l f a s t o w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g w i t h t h e t w o re p o rt s? T h e w o r s e t h a t h e c o u l d h a v e d o n e w a s j u st t o t a ke t w o re p o rt s a n d s a y, “I a m d i sm i s s i n g y o u o n t h e b a si s o f t h e e xi st e n c e of the two r e p o rt s ”. He would have been c ri t i ci s e d . N o w h e c o m e s t o t h e l a w f i r m , w h i c h i s We r k sm a n s, a n d 10 i t h a p p e n e d t o b e m e a t We r k s m a n s, w h o d o e s t h a t a n d h e t h e n a ct o n t h e b a si s o f t h e a d vi c e g i v e n t o h i m . I never heard a n yt h i n g . . . b e c a u se there was a s u g g e st i o n h e r e w h i c h I h e a rd t h a t w e w e r e d o i n g c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n . We c a n n o t e v e n i f w e l i k e t o d o t h a t . T h e r e i s n o p ri v a t e l a w f i rm t h a t ca n c o n d u ct a c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n . F o r a l l t h a t w e d i d i s a n e m p l o y e r/ e m p l o y e e re l a t i o n t h a t w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : S e c o n d l a st q u e st i o n . We h a v e d e b a t e d t h e i s s u e o f t h e st a t u s o f t h e I P I D r e p o rt . We kn o w 20 w h a t M r M o si n g s a i d b u t M r K h u b a a l s o d i d n o t s a y t h e s e re p o rt s w e r e i n c o n s e q u e n t i a l . I n t h e a ff i d a vi t w h i c h i s f r o m p a g e . . . i t st a rt s a t p a g e . . . I w i l l r e f e r y o u t o t h e re l e v a n t p o rt i o n . I t st a rt s a t p a g e 1 4 9 9 . S o rr y, M r S e s o k o , n o t M r K h u b a . M r S e s o k o . . . h i s a ff i d a vi t st a rt s a t 1 4 9 9 b u t a t 1 5 2 0 , h e Page 245 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 d e a l s w i t h t h e st a t u s o f t h e I P I D re p o rt s. M R J U LY : I t i s 1 4 9 9 ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, f r o m . . . y e s, t h a t i s w h e r e i t st a rt s b u t t h e r e l e v a n t p o rt i o n i s 1 5 2 0 . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d p a rt i c u l a rl y a t 1 5 2 1 . Now h e r e i t s a y s t h a t t h e I P I D re p o rt s h a v e g o t t w o t y p e s o f re l e v a n c e . M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : n o t b o u n d , ri g h t ? O n e i s re l e v a n t t o N PA . N PA i s N o w h e r e d o e s h e s a y t h a t N PA c a n d i s re g a rd i n t h e s e n se t h a t t h e y c a n si m p l e n o t r e a d i t . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d w e k n o w t h a t i n t h i s p a rt i c u l a r i n st a n c e t h e N PA w a n t e d i t . M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : B u t I w a n t t o t a k e yo u t o t h e s e c o n d re l e v a n c e w h i ch i s a t p a g e f o u rt e e n p o i n t . . . so r ry, p a r a g ra p h 1 4 . 6 . H e s a y s: 20 “From the above, it is cl e a r that the l e g i sl a t o r intended that the disciplinary recommendations of IPID to SAPS are enforceable and cannot be ignored...” M R J U LY : J a . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w, w h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h i s ? Page 246 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 Because your recommendation, if we look at your terms of re f e r e n c e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. ADV N G U C K A I TO B I SC: ...was to make disciplinary re c o m m e n d a t i o n s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . w h i c h a r e e m p l o y m e n t re l a t e d , a s w e l l a s, c i vi l o r c ri m i n a l re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. M R J U LY : Ye s. 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : But on the disciplinary side, what d o yo u s a y t o t h i s ? M R J U LY : C h a i r, t h a t i s e x a ct l y w h a t w e d i d . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. M R J U LY : We m a d e r e co m m e n d a t i o n s a n d i t w a s u p t o t h e m i n i st e r, e v e n f r o m u s, t o s a y, “ W h a t d o I d o w i t h t h e s e re c o m m e n d a t i o n s ? ” A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. N o , M r J u l y, . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : [ I n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . I a m t r yi n g t o a s k y o u a b o u t t h e 20 b i n d i n g n a t u r e o f t h e I P I D re p o rt t o S A P S f o r d i s c i p l i n a r y p u r p o s e s. M R J U LY : N o , t h e b i n d i n g n a t u r e , i t i s b i n d i n g . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s. M R J U LY : It is binding. W h e n t h e y s e n t a r e p o rt t o S A P S a n d a re p o rt w h i c h i s si g n e d b y I P I D , t h e y h a v e t o a ct o n Page 247 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 t h a t . S o i f . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Mr C h a i r, i f I co u l d b e o f so m e a s si st a n ce as well? I t h i n k, i f I u n d e r st a n d t h e e vi d e n c e o f M r S e s o k o c o r r e ct l y, w h a t h e i s s a yi n g i s t h a t t h a t f i r st r e p o rt n e v e r w e n t t o t h e m i n i st e r. S o t h e r e w a s n o r e co m m e n d a t i o n i n s o f a r a s t h e f i r st re p o rt i s c o n c e r n e d i n r e sp e ct o f d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a n d o n c e c a n c o n si d e r t h e m . M R J U LY : H ’ m . 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Thank you. T h a t i s a p p re c i a t e d . Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is about the binding n a t u r e . W h e t h e r i t i s b i n d i n g o r n o t , h e y? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, p r e c i s e l y. T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. Yo u h a v e g o t t h e p o i n t e x a ct l y. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I w a n t t o m o v e o n M r J u l y. i s n o n e e d t o r e s p o n d t o t h e e vi d e n ce l e a d e r. binding 20 and there has been t a m p e ri n g Th e r e But if it is and deletion . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . i n t h e se n s e t h a t y o u h a v e re c o m m e n d e d o r t h e r e p o rt h a s m a d e f i n d i n g s a g a i n st M r Sibiya and has made findings . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 248 of 255 a g a i n st Mr D ra m a t 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Fi n d i n g s a g a i n st . . . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : . . . w h a t a r e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s ? M R J U LY : T h e c o n s e q u e n c e , i f y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r C h a i r, i f I m i g h t ? A n d I r e a l l y d o h a t e t o i n t e rj e ct . T h e p o i n t i s t h a t . . . w h i c h i s w h a t m y f e a r w a s i n t h e f i r st p l a ce . T h e p o i n t i s t h a t t h e f i r st re p o rt w a s n e ve r s e n t t o t h e m i n i st e r. I t w a s s e n t t o t h e D e p u t y N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c , o r ra t h e r, 10 to the N PA and it did not have a disciplinary re c o m m e n d a t i o n . T h a t i s t h e o n l y p o i n t I w i s h t o m a k e . T h a t is the point. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : I t i s a w h o l l y i rr e l e v a n t p o i n t . M R J U LY : H ’ m . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : A n d p l e a s e a n s w e r M r Ju l y. What a r e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f r e m o vi n g i n f o rm a t i o n w h i c h m a k e s f i n d i n g s a g a i n st a p a rt i c u l a r e m p l o y e e ? M R J U LY : I t i s a m i s c o n d u ct . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : J a . 20 M R J U LY : A n d i t i s a m i s c o n d u ct f o r w h i c h a p e r s o n m u st b e d i s ci p l i n e d f o r. T h e r e m u st b e c o n s e q u e n c e s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Fi n a l q u e st i o n . In the same a ff i d a vi t o f M r S e s o k o , h e s u m m a ri s e s w h y h e b e l i e v e s t h a t We r k sm a n s i s i n v o l v e d i n st a t e ca p t u r e a t p a g e 1 5 3 6 a t . . . and it goes on to 1539. Page 249 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : There he talks about I t st a rt s w i t h p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 1 . what M i n i st e r Nhleko wanted to a c h i e ve . M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : C o r r e ct ? M R J U LY : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y] ADV N G U C K A I TO B I SC: Did yo u h a ve any meeting w h a t so e v e r w i t h M r N h l e k o t o d i s c u s s a n yt h i n g o f t h e s o rt ? 10 M R J U LY : I have never met Mr Nhleko. s p o ke n t o h i m . I d o n o t k n o w. Never met. I kn o w o f h i m . N e ve r We h a v e n e ve r m e t w i t h M r N h l e k o . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u j u st g e t a l e t t e r o r d i d y o u g e t a c a l l f r o m h i s st a ff t o a p p o i n t yo u ? M R J U LY : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d y o u g e t t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : I g o t t h e i n st r u ct i o n t h a t w a s i n a n e n v e l o p e . CHAIRPERSON: An envelope? M R J U LY : Ye s. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR J U LY : But I have never had a talk to . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o t e v e n s p o k e n t o h i m ? M R J U LY : N e ve r s p o ke n t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Page 250 of 255 m i st e r 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 M R J U LY : B u t I m u st i n d i c a t e C h a i r. E v e n i f I s p o ke t o N h l e k o . . . b e c a u se w h e n y o u g e t i n s t ru ct i o n s f r o m cl i e n t , yo u m u st s p e a k t o cl i e n t . T h e re i s n o t h i n g w r o n g i n s p e a ki n g t o cl i e n t . CHAIRPERSON: No, no. There is nothing wrong about s p e a k i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : But what I am not going to do is to change to f a ct s t o s u i t t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e re . W h a t y o u m u st d o w h e n y o u c ri t i ci s e m y r e p o rt , y o u m u st l o o k a t t h e f a ct s, n o t o n t h e 10 m o t i v e o f N h l e ko . A s s u m i n g h e h a d h i s o w n m o t i v e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : I w a s d e a l i n g w i t h t h e f a ct s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. M R J U LY : S o i t i s n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e , w h e t h e r I h a ve m e t w i t h h i m b u t I c a n c a t e g o ri c a l l y s a y I h a v e n e v e r m e t him. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J U LY : T h e r e w a s n o r e a so n i n t h i s ca s e t o e v e n m e t with him. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , yo u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : T h e y h a v e p r o vi d e d u s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : A cl e a r b r i e f . M R J U LY : . . . w i t h a w h o l e r e p o rt . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J U LY : T h e d o c k e t , t h e t w o r e p o rt s. Page 251 of 255 It was up to us to 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 d e a l w i t h t h a t t h i n g . I f t h e r e w a s a n e e d f o r a n yt h i n g t h a t w e wanted from Nhleko, we would have consulted with him. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Ye s, y e s. N o w t h e cr i t i ci s m t h e r e i s, M r N h l e k o h a d c e rt a i n u l t e ri o r g o a l s t h a t h e w a n t e d t o a c h i e ve . Yo u h a v e e x p l a i n e d w h a t y o u r a n s w e r i s. Now the t i m e w h e r e y o u r n a m e f e a t u re s i s a t 1 5 3 9 , p a r a g ra p h 1 7 . 7 . N o w t h i s i s t h e b u l l e t t h i n g w h y We r k s m a n s i s b e i n g a c c u s e d o f b e i n g i n v o l v e d i n st a t e c a p t u r e . 10 M R J U LY : O n e , f i v e . . . ? A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : Yo u a re l o o ki n g for the 1539. b a si s Th a t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 7 . for why they say that We r k sm a n s h a s d o n e s o m e t h i n g w r o n g ? M R J U LY : Ye s. A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : T h i s i s w h a t t h e y s a y: “ T h e We r k s m a n s r e p o rt a u t h o r e d b y Ju l y w a s u se d a s a catalyse getting ri d to of achieve us and c o m p l yi n g i n d i vi d u a l s. 20 M i n i st e r N h l e k o ’s replacing us goal with of more T h i s i s t h e u l t i m a t e e n d -p o i n t o f st a t e c a p t u r e a g a i n st We r k s m a n s . . . ” W h a t i s yo u r c o m m e n t ? M R J U LY : [ l a u g h s[ B u t C h a i r, i f N h l e k o u s e m y r e p o rt o r We r k sm a n s r e p o r t f o r h i s. . . I h a v e b e e n s a yi n g t h i s t h i n g t h r o u g h o u t t h e d a y. F o r h i s u l t e ri o r m o t i v e t h a t h a s n o t h i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 252 of 255 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h o se m o t i v e s. M R J U LY : . . . t o d o w i t h u s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you did what you were asked to do and y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : N h l e k o ’s Ye s. And again... not that I am not... I am not spokesperson but again if Nhleko looks for i n f o r m a t i o n t o g e t ri d o f p e o p l e a n d h e f i n d s i t , w h a t m u st h e do with it? CHAIRPERSON: H’m? 10 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : N o w M r J u l y, m y o n l y c o n c e r n i s, f a ct u a l l y, w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u h a d a n yt h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e u s a g e o f y o u r re p o rt s u b s e q u e n t t o i t s p r o d u ct i o n . M R J U LY : N o , a l l t h a t w e d i d . We h a ve p r e p a r e d t h e re p o rt f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e m i n i st e r. What he does with it, it is h i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t w a s n o n e o f yo u r b u si n e s s. M R J U LY : We w e r e n e v e r i n v o l v e d a f t e r t h e s u b m i s si o n o f t h e r e p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. 20 A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : C h a i r, I w a n t t o t h a n k y o u f o r t h e patience. [laughs] CHAIRPERSON: [ l a u g h s] . No, thank you Mr Nguckaitobi. Yo u t o o k a re a s o n a b l e a m o u n t o f t i m e . A D V N G U C K A I TO B I S C : [ l a u g h s] T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. w i l l b e t h e e n d o f m y r e -e x a m i n a t i o n . Page 253 of 255 Th a t 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I have got only one q u e st i o n a r i si n g o u t o f t h i s M r J u l y. M R J U LY : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t t h a t d u ri n g y o u r e vi d e n c e e a rl i e r, I thought had u n d e r st o o d yo u to say to accept the p r o p o si t i o n t h a t t h e N PA i s n o t b o u n d b y t h e I P I D r e p o rt s u ch as this one but when your counsel asked you a question on t h e b i n d i n g n a t u r e o f s u c h a r e p o rt , I u n d e r st o o d y o u t o s a y i t i s b i n d i n g . D i d I u n d e r st a n d y o u r c o r r e ct l y ? 10 M R J U LY : The IPID. I a m n o t s u re i f t h e q u e st i o n w a s i n re l a t i o n t o t h e I P I D o r t h e S A P S C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , w e l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : I t w a s b i n d i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: We l l , y o u c a n c l a ri f y. I thought he was t a l ki n g a b o u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R J U LY : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . a b o u t a n I P I D r e p o rt b e b i n d i n g . M R J U LY : I t i s a S A P S . I t i s a S A P S . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 20 MR J U LY : The binding e ff e ct is in re l a t i o n m i s c o n d u ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e m i s c o n d u ct . M R J U LY : Ye s, y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e cri m i n a l p a rt . M R J U LY : N o t t h e cri m i n a l p a rt , n o . Page 254 of 255 to the 31 JULY 2020 – DAY 242 CHAIRPERSON: O h , o ka y. O k a y t h a n k yo u . v e r y m u c h M r J u l y f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e e vi d e n ce . Thank you And thank y o u v e r y m u c h t o y o u r c o u n s e l a n d e v e r yb o d y. come to the end. We h a v e I t i s q u a rt e r p a st f i v e b u t I t h i n k w e a re done. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. O n M o n d a y, t h e C o m m i s si o n w i l l h e a r e vi d e n c e r e l a t i n g t o P R A S A a n d Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e w i l l b e g i vi n g e v i d e n ce w i t h re g a rd t o t h e t i m e s h e w a s 10 c h a i r p e r so n o f b o a r d o f P R A S A . A n d t h e n f o r t h e r e st o f t h e w e e k, I w i l l b e h e a r i n g e vi d e n c e r e l a t i n g t o . . . o r t h e F r e e S t a t e , Tu e s d a y u p t o F ri d a y. So I make this announcement for the public and the media about what is happening n e xt C o m m i s si o n . We a d j o u r n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 3 A U G U S T 2 0 2 0 Page 255 of 255 week in the